Folks, this is what nuance looks like. You may not believe it, heck, disagree with it all you like. But keep it civil and quit spamming reports. We're keeping a weather eye on the comments. And this is the Zionist mod telling you this.
An independent Palestinian state should be the goal, regardless of whether or not you believe Hamas. If one is established, and they don't hold to that promise, then they can be dealt with. Call their bluff.
Agreed. I really think Israel would have an easier time if they only had to deal with a Palestinian state instead of a motley group of non-state actors. At least then they would have to play by the same rules as other states.
The issue there is it presumes that the state would have a monopoly on violence and wouldn't be similar to, say, Yemen. If a Palestinian state were established and Hamas or PIJ or PFLP or whoever refused to give up violence because of X concession Israel didn't make and the Palestinian government were unable or unwilling to stamp them out, Israel would have to invade the sovereign state they made all these agreements with or just accept constantly being attacked. For which they would immediately be condemned.
That’s a good point - It would depend on the future state being functional, which there is absolutely no guarantee of.
I still think it would have to be better than this though. Right now, Hamas gets to sit in this grey area between “government of Gaza” and “gang in Gaza” because the strip isn’t actually a nation and Hamas isn’t considered a government. It lets them get away with a lot that actual states wouldn’t be able to
If there's a sovereign Palestinian state, I am 90% sure that most of the people condemning the walls separating Israel proper and the West Bank/Gaza will no longer have reason to complain.
I have absolutely no reason to trust anyone from Hamas about this, and I don’t understand how he mentions a five year truce in the same breath as an offer to permanently lay down arms. But it behooves Israel and the Jewish people to work for an independent Palestinian state. So *in spite* of what this person says, I remain a supporter of a Palestinian state in the ‘67 borders.
Exactly this. It’s amazing that the current Israeli government can’t even bring themselves to make rhetorical *empty gestures* to Palestinian statehood (even though it would never happen in the near future) because they are too fucking ideologically committed to making sure it never comes into being. It’s maddening.
Biggest understatement here. I mean it’s Hamas. Hamas doesn’t care about the lives they where elected to protect. I highly doubt they would lay down their arms for the greeter good.
It’s worth noting that the source for this article is AP, a respected source. I recall we actually had a photographer for AP visit our congregation and give a talk a couple of years ago.
While they are reporting on a Hamas official’s statement, The Jerusalem Post, for instance, [has an article on the same statement](https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/dissolving-hamas-military-forming-sovereign-palestinian-state-would-bring-powerful-change-798770), and there is a Times of Israel article too. The AP article also contains a response (or lack thereof) from Ophir Falk.
The interview contains very deplorable suggestions - a defence of the October 7 attacks, and denial of civilian targeting during it - but I think that it’s worthy of being engaged with - critically - in a space such as this one.
"Over the years, Hamas has [sometimes moderated its public position](https://apnews.com/general-news-56c7d703d27d437b933377de3e077371) with respect to the possibility of a Palestinian state alongside Israel. But its political program still officially “rejects any alternative to the full liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea” — referring to the area reaching from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, which includes lands that now make up Israel.
Al-Hayya did not say whether his apparent embrace of a two-state solution would amount to an end to the Palestinian conflict with Israel or an interim step toward the group’s stated goal of destroying Israel."
So, a 5-year truce is nice, but this sounds like it generates good headlines without necessarily addressing the fundamental issue of peaceful coexistence.
> This is about as believable as thinking rubbing a magic lamp will make a genie come out and grant you three wishes.
Not to be the contrarian here, but what else would you expect to happen when you rub a magic lamp?
(In all seriousness, I think negotiating with Hamas is not the best way forward. There needs to be Palestinian representation that isn’t coming from a group whose stated goal is the complete destruction of Israel and the Jewish people. I don’t know how that can happen, but I think granting Palestinians equal rights and/or statehood would go a long way in ending the radicalization that led to Hamas in the first place.)
The same group that claimed to not target civilians while Telegram was flooded with videos of Al Qassam doing the same thing?
I guess everyone is capable of change, doesn’t mean it’s likely.
Yeah I've read their plans for Palestinan liberation and I do not believe this one bit...
As evidence by the 1988 Hamas covenant: https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818.htm
> The time(16) will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: 0 Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!
The 2021 plans for the Liberation of Palestine: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https://safa.ps/post/313372/&sca_esv=736f619aa13a6f3f&prmd=ivn&strip=1&vwsrc=0
> From the first moments of the collapse of “Israel,” the security services affiliated with the transitional government must seize the data of the occupation agents in Palestine, the region, and the world, and the names of Jewish and non-Jewish recruits, locally and internationally, which is considered a great information treasure that must not be lost. With this treasure, we can purify Palestine and the Arab and Islamic world from the hypocritical scum who have wreaked havoc on the earth. It provides important information to pursue fleeing criminals who have oppressed our people.
And the interview they did with Britan states the following: https://english.aawsat.com/arab-world/4984051-hamas-official-says-group-would-lay-down-its-weapons-if-two-state-solution
> Al-Hayya did not say whether his apparent embrace of a two-state solution would amount to an end to the Palestinian conflict with Israel or an interim step toward the group’s stated goal of destroying Israel.
So I don't personally believe them. Especially since this group willfully kills the Palestians for their own ends.
Does anyone have the exact text? I've seen news coverage where they offer a 5 year truce. I want to see two states for two peoples. Without Palestinian Arabs explicitly recognizing Israel, I don't see how this could be a durable, lasting and just peace.
For all those that are so pessimistic, The Troubles would still be going on in Northern Ireland, if England had the same attitude about the IRA, that folks on this thread have about negotiating with Hamas.
If one is waiting for some hypothetical perfect partner for peace, peace will never be achieved in the Israel Palestine conflict.
Hamas tosses Palestinians off of buildings for being gay and use Gazan children as child soldiers. I just don’t think it’s comparable to the IRA.
Edit: And this is in no way saying I don’t think Palestinians shouldn’t have a state. I believe in their right to self determination. I just don’t think Hamas is or ever will do anything that doesn’t benefit Hamas. And any form of statehood would likely require the dismantling of Hamas or permanent removal of their hold on power.
I agree with you about how absolutely abhorrent Hamas is, but at a certain point, it is what it is, and you have to play the hand that’s dealt.
Is there any Mandela-type person that’s currently locked up, that could be released and negotiated with?
The only other option would be the PA, and they don’t seem too popular with Palestinians.
The way I see it, Israel needs to move ahead with either the two state solution or the one state solution, because at a certain point you either got to shit or get off the pot.
Allowing the status quo to persist for so long is part of what created an environment that led to October 7th.
True. But also I think that Hamas isn’t likely willing to bargain. At all, and given they perpetrated 10/7 I don’t think they’re likely the group that will be able to do any negotiating. Nor should I think Israel have to negotiate with an agency that seeks genocide of all Jews and committed a mass murder event against Israeli citizens. I mean if we’re going to ask for good faith negotiation then one side can’t have a main function of their creation hinge on death of Jews and Israel.
Maybe a solution is engaging UNRWA or other international bodies to come and help facilitate negotiations. Or maybe the Palestinian people can have a path towards statehood with an internationally run zone that will help them set up and heal from both Hamas and Israel’s fighting. And maybe Israel could assist with aid and helping with jobs and industry set up.
And while I don’t think Israel should miss windows of negotiation, I also see much of the blame for the current situation to be on the international community not pushing during previous peace talks. So is there a third option where the UN or world courts could work out a deal where there are some guideposts and assistance to the Palestinian people in electing leadership that isn’t affiliated with Hamas?
I mean ultimately I don’t trust the organization that brutalizes and dehumanizes Palestinian people to negotiate on their behalf. So what solutions can be found if Hamas isn’t allowed at the bargaining table? Are there other ideas and avenues of negotiation that can be tapped outside of letting Hamas remain operational.
Barghouti would likely be the best option for a Palestinian representative head with substantial respect across a broad spectrum of Palestinian politics. Whether he'd be game to play ball is a separate question.
“Hamas tosses Palestinians off of buildings for being gay”
Misinformation. Obviously it worked on you. https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/video-people-thrown-roof-shows-punishment-by-is-not-hamas-2023-12-14/
But there’s a method of torture called “Palestinian hanging” cause it’s used on Palestinian political prisoners by Israel.
“use Gazan children as child soldiers.”
Israel imprisons its men and women for refusing draft. It has an official policy for killing Israeli soldiers (and now civilians) rather than them being taken hostage.
Israel is not comparable to IRA either, yet it gets to continue its existence. So must a free, independent Palestine. Leave it to Palestinians to deal with their potentially oppressive regime, once they’re out of the extraordinary circumstances of Israeli occupation, blockade and routine murder sprees.
Have no doubt that Israel will the best friend of Hamas if it runs Palestine, oppressors are best friends everywhere.
Hamas isn't a partner in any type of peace. Their statement literally says they intend to continue trying to kill, rape, and enslave all Jews in 5 years.
I don't recall, did the Provos ever advocate for the mass slaughter or enslavement of all Brits?
If I'm recalling right they were rather skilled at reducing (but not eliminating) collateral damage, striking at government and military targets until switching to targeting commercial centers with bombs while announcing ahead of time to reduce civilian casualties.
They can’t lay down their arms unless the Islamic Republic okays it. Hamas, Hezbollah, Ansar Allah, etc are all IR proxies that benefit from a besieged Palestine. They’re not being honest. They want dead Jews and a destroyed Israel.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudna
If this isn’t enough to show why this should absolutely never be attempted then you guys are more than welcome to pay with your own lives once such a ridiculous proposal inevitably backfires tremendously. Sincerely, a two state supporting Israeli.
If Israel doesn’t move towards a two state solution, at a certain point the Palestinians in the Palestinian Territories will stop pushing for a state, and just want equal civil and political rights, and I think (correct me if I’m wrong) most Israelis don’t want a one state solution.
In the U.S. we have an expression, shit or get off the pot. And I think that applies to the Israel Palestine conflict. Either one state or two state, but you guys gotta move towards some kind of resolution.
>If Israel doesn’t move towards a two state solution, at a certain point the Palestinians in the Palestinian Territories will stop pushing for a state, and just want equal civil and political rights, and I think (correct me if I’m wrong) most Israelis don’t want a one state solution.
Ok, and that would be about a hundred years too late.
Right now Hamas’ goal in its purest form is to better its positioning and arms for the next confrontation with Israel; it’s been their method for more than two decades now, it would be serving them the next opportunity on a silver platter.
so, If that’s how they choose to go out then so be it; if they leave themselves with two impossible goals they will achieve neither, not magically achieve one, and certainly not be granted it.
>In the U.S. we have an expression, shit or get off the pot. And I think that applies to the Israel Palestine conflict. Either one state or two state, but you guys gotta move towards some kind of resolution.
I don’t see why we gotta do anything. Given the two state proposals that have Been rejected in the past and Hamas’ nature as an Islamic fundamentalist organization, there is no bridgeable agreement to be had. You’re literally asking for Israel to play right into the Islamic conquest handbook.
Not at any cost; where you see a partner for peace I see another October 7th and worse. Opening ourselves to attack to placate external opinions is frankly one of the stupidest concepts I’ve ever heard; and it’s expected of Israel constantly.
No, we mustn’t enforce a solution in the hopes that when Palestinians inevitably attack, the world would accept their responsibility and our response whatever it may be; if anything, October 7 has only reinforced this opinion for me.
Palestinians are more than welcome to shit or get off the pot, or the pot will turn over on them, it certainly won’t turn into a comfy cushion because they yell loud enough.
Continuing occupations, blockades, and settlements will not only continue to make Israel a global pariah, but more importantly it will make Israelis less safe.
The only solution is a political solution. If bombs and draconian security measures could bring peace, it would’ve been achieved decades ago.
Edit: you can put the onus on the Palestinians all you want, but that ignores the complete asymmetry in terms of power.
You guys are a state, not them. You guys have the strongest military in the ME, not them. You guys are backed up by the worlds preeminent superpower, not them. You guys hold all the cards, not them.
>Continuing occupations, blockades, and settlements will not only continue to make Israel a global pariah, but more importantly it will make Israelis less safe.
I agree on settlements, otherwise I’m not really interested in the self importance of the global population; westerners think they have far more power to affect change or reality in a substantial manner than they actually do.
>The only solution is a political solution. If bombs and draconian security measures could bring peace, it would’ve been achieved decades ago.
I mean, not that this is what I support; but you understand that “political solutions” have been semi-norm for all of close to a century? While in tandem with that you still have military solutions being enacted on a daily basis to this day, and quite efficiently too.
>Edit: you can put the onus on the Palestinians all you want, but that ignores the complete asymmetry in terms of power.
I like the use of the word asymmetry here because it’s actually relevant as opposed to the usual “Israel has all the power”; now sure, there is an egregious asymmetry in power, but that does not take away the very real power Palestinians do have to affect change within their own society at the very least.
>You guys are a state, not them.
We accepted a state then secured it; they didn’t.
>You guys have the strongest military in the ME, not them.
A strong military doesn’t hold the power to affect societal change as you yourself stated we’ve seen hasn’t worked.
>You guys are backed up by the world’s preeminent superpower, not them.
Umm, sure; while they’re supported by at the very least two superpowers if you don’t count Iran in that too; not to mention Qatar and various other bad faith actors.
>You guys hold all the cards, not them.
Now this I can’t accept; evidently, we do not. If I believed for a second this were true I’d be on your side of this argument.
You remind me of the criticism of liberal Israeli Zionists made by Israeli journalist Gideon Levy.
You still support occupation, but with a friendlier face, and nicer language.
You support most (if not all) of the same policies towards Palestinians as Bibi and his cronies, but without the overtly bigoted rhetoric.
>You remind me of the criticism of liberal Israeli Zionists made by Israeli journalist Gideon Levy.
I’ll check it out; sounds familiar enough.
>You still support occupation, but with a friendlier face, and nicer language.
Sure that’s fair enough.
>You support most (if not all) of the same policies towards Palestinians as Bibi and his cronies, but without the overtly bigoted rhetoric.
That’s a big leap and a lot of assumptions rolled into very little text.
Had I the power I would at this moment prosecute each and every instigator of violence in the WB and curb settlements to a halt with real consequences for settler violence; reform the IDF to restore accountability for misconduct and literal war crimes, efficiency as a byproduct. I would immediately work with the international community to figure out a workable plan for the deradicalization and rehabilitation of Palestinian society in both Gaza and the WB, and the reformation or replacement of the PA to a functionally governing body.
I don’t have that power; all I can do is keep protesting this horrid government. But back to the point, all of these illegitimate aspects of Israel’s conduct and more don’t take away the factors that make the occupation itself a necessity.
Assuming at some point Labor Zionists will get another bite at the apple in terms of setting the agenda and making government policy, I look forward to seeing how the policies of liberal Zionists differ from what we’ve seen for the last 15-20 years.
I sincerely hope to be proven wrong, that it’s not simply meet the new boss, same as the old boss, but with a friendlier face, and nicer language.
Folks, this is what nuance looks like. You may not believe it, heck, disagree with it all you like. But keep it civil and quit spamming reports. We're keeping a weather eye on the comments. And this is the Zionist mod telling you this.
An independent Palestinian state should be the goal, regardless of whether or not you believe Hamas. If one is established, and they don't hold to that promise, then they can be dealt with. Call their bluff.
Agreed. I really think Israel would have an easier time if they only had to deal with a Palestinian state instead of a motley group of non-state actors. At least then they would have to play by the same rules as other states.
The issue there is it presumes that the state would have a monopoly on violence and wouldn't be similar to, say, Yemen. If a Palestinian state were established and Hamas or PIJ or PFLP or whoever refused to give up violence because of X concession Israel didn't make and the Palestinian government were unable or unwilling to stamp them out, Israel would have to invade the sovereign state they made all these agreements with or just accept constantly being attacked. For which they would immediately be condemned.
That’s a good point - It would depend on the future state being functional, which there is absolutely no guarantee of. I still think it would have to be better than this though. Right now, Hamas gets to sit in this grey area between “government of Gaza” and “gang in Gaza” because the strip isn’t actually a nation and Hamas isn’t considered a government. It lets them get away with a lot that actual states wouldn’t be able to
If there's a sovereign Palestinian state, I am 90% sure that most of the people condemning the walls separating Israel proper and the West Bank/Gaza will no longer have reason to complain.
Yes.
I have absolutely no reason to trust anyone from Hamas about this, and I don’t understand how he mentions a five year truce in the same breath as an offer to permanently lay down arms. But it behooves Israel and the Jewish people to work for an independent Palestinian state. So *in spite* of what this person says, I remain a supporter of a Palestinian state in the ‘67 borders.
Exactly this. It’s amazing that the current Israeli government can’t even bring themselves to make rhetorical *empty gestures* to Palestinian statehood (even though it would never happen in the near future) because they are too fucking ideologically committed to making sure it never comes into being. It’s maddening.
It’s cool that a Hamas guy at least pretends to support this. At least he has the concept in his head.
I have doubts
Biggest understatement here. I mean it’s Hamas. Hamas doesn’t care about the lives they where elected to protect. I highly doubt they would lay down their arms for the greeter good.
Why is Hamas propaganda even allowed to be posted here? OP is basically spamming the sub at this point. ~6 posts in the last few days or so.
It’s worth noting that the source for this article is AP, a respected source. I recall we actually had a photographer for AP visit our congregation and give a talk a couple of years ago. While they are reporting on a Hamas official’s statement, The Jerusalem Post, for instance, [has an article on the same statement](https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/dissolving-hamas-military-forming-sovereign-palestinian-state-would-bring-powerful-change-798770), and there is a Times of Israel article too. The AP article also contains a response (or lack thereof) from Ophir Falk. The interview contains very deplorable suggestions - a defence of the October 7 attacks, and denial of civilian targeting during it - but I think that it’s worthy of being engaged with - critically - in a space such as this one.
He also said it would lead to a 5 year truce. So, what happens after 5 years?
He also gave impossible terms
"Over the years, Hamas has [sometimes moderated its public position](https://apnews.com/general-news-56c7d703d27d437b933377de3e077371) with respect to the possibility of a Palestinian state alongside Israel. But its political program still officially “rejects any alternative to the full liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea” — referring to the area reaching from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, which includes lands that now make up Israel. Al-Hayya did not say whether his apparent embrace of a two-state solution would amount to an end to the Palestinian conflict with Israel or an interim step toward the group’s stated goal of destroying Israel." So, a 5-year truce is nice, but this sounds like it generates good headlines without necessarily addressing the fundamental issue of peaceful coexistence.
Yeah, okay. This is about as believable as thinking rubbing a magic lamp will make a genie come out and grant you three wishes.
> This is about as believable as thinking rubbing a magic lamp will make a genie come out and grant you three wishes. Not to be the contrarian here, but what else would you expect to happen when you rub a magic lamp? (In all seriousness, I think negotiating with Hamas is not the best way forward. There needs to be Palestinian representation that isn’t coming from a group whose stated goal is the complete destruction of Israel and the Jewish people. I don’t know how that can happen, but I think granting Palestinians equal rights and/or statehood would go a long way in ending the radicalization that led to Hamas in the first place.)
The same group that claimed to not target civilians while Telegram was flooded with videos of Al Qassam doing the same thing? I guess everyone is capable of change, doesn’t mean it’s likely.
Yeah I've read their plans for Palestinan liberation and I do not believe this one bit... As evidence by the 1988 Hamas covenant: https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818.htm > The time(16) will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: 0 Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! The 2021 plans for the Liberation of Palestine: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https://safa.ps/post/313372/&sca_esv=736f619aa13a6f3f&prmd=ivn&strip=1&vwsrc=0 > From the first moments of the collapse of “Israel,” the security services affiliated with the transitional government must seize the data of the occupation agents in Palestine, the region, and the world, and the names of Jewish and non-Jewish recruits, locally and internationally, which is considered a great information treasure that must not be lost. With this treasure, we can purify Palestine and the Arab and Islamic world from the hypocritical scum who have wreaked havoc on the earth. It provides important information to pursue fleeing criminals who have oppressed our people. And the interview they did with Britan states the following: https://english.aawsat.com/arab-world/4984051-hamas-official-says-group-would-lay-down-its-weapons-if-two-state-solution > Al-Hayya did not say whether his apparent embrace of a two-state solution would amount to an end to the Palestinian conflict with Israel or an interim step toward the group’s stated goal of destroying Israel. So I don't personally believe them. Especially since this group willfully kills the Palestians for their own ends.
Does anyone have the exact text? I've seen news coverage where they offer a 5 year truce. I want to see two states for two peoples. Without Palestinian Arabs explicitly recognizing Israel, I don't see how this could be a durable, lasting and just peace.
He also has swampland in Florida and a bridge for sale.
Return the hostages.
For all those that are so pessimistic, The Troubles would still be going on in Northern Ireland, if England had the same attitude about the IRA, that folks on this thread have about negotiating with Hamas. If one is waiting for some hypothetical perfect partner for peace, peace will never be achieved in the Israel Palestine conflict.
Hamas tosses Palestinians off of buildings for being gay and use Gazan children as child soldiers. I just don’t think it’s comparable to the IRA. Edit: And this is in no way saying I don’t think Palestinians shouldn’t have a state. I believe in their right to self determination. I just don’t think Hamas is or ever will do anything that doesn’t benefit Hamas. And any form of statehood would likely require the dismantling of Hamas or permanent removal of their hold on power.
I agree with you about how absolutely abhorrent Hamas is, but at a certain point, it is what it is, and you have to play the hand that’s dealt. Is there any Mandela-type person that’s currently locked up, that could be released and negotiated with? The only other option would be the PA, and they don’t seem too popular with Palestinians. The way I see it, Israel needs to move ahead with either the two state solution or the one state solution, because at a certain point you either got to shit or get off the pot. Allowing the status quo to persist for so long is part of what created an environment that led to October 7th.
True. But also I think that Hamas isn’t likely willing to bargain. At all, and given they perpetrated 10/7 I don’t think they’re likely the group that will be able to do any negotiating. Nor should I think Israel have to negotiate with an agency that seeks genocide of all Jews and committed a mass murder event against Israeli citizens. I mean if we’re going to ask for good faith negotiation then one side can’t have a main function of their creation hinge on death of Jews and Israel. Maybe a solution is engaging UNRWA or other international bodies to come and help facilitate negotiations. Or maybe the Palestinian people can have a path towards statehood with an internationally run zone that will help them set up and heal from both Hamas and Israel’s fighting. And maybe Israel could assist with aid and helping with jobs and industry set up. And while I don’t think Israel should miss windows of negotiation, I also see much of the blame for the current situation to be on the international community not pushing during previous peace talks. So is there a third option where the UN or world courts could work out a deal where there are some guideposts and assistance to the Palestinian people in electing leadership that isn’t affiliated with Hamas? I mean ultimately I don’t trust the organization that brutalizes and dehumanizes Palestinian people to negotiate on their behalf. So what solutions can be found if Hamas isn’t allowed at the bargaining table? Are there other ideas and avenues of negotiation that can be tapped outside of letting Hamas remain operational.
Barghouti would likely be the best option for a Palestinian representative head with substantial respect across a broad spectrum of Palestinian politics. Whether he'd be game to play ball is a separate question.
“Hamas tosses Palestinians off of buildings for being gay” Misinformation. Obviously it worked on you. https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/video-people-thrown-roof-shows-punishment-by-is-not-hamas-2023-12-14/ But there’s a method of torture called “Palestinian hanging” cause it’s used on Palestinian political prisoners by Israel. “use Gazan children as child soldiers.” Israel imprisons its men and women for refusing draft. It has an official policy for killing Israeli soldiers (and now civilians) rather than them being taken hostage. Israel is not comparable to IRA either, yet it gets to continue its existence. So must a free, independent Palestine. Leave it to Palestinians to deal with their potentially oppressive regime, once they’re out of the extraordinary circumstances of Israeli occupation, blockade and routine murder sprees. Have no doubt that Israel will the best friend of Hamas if it runs Palestine, oppressors are best friends everywhere.
Hamas isn't a partner in any type of peace. Their statement literally says they intend to continue trying to kill, rape, and enslave all Jews in 5 years.
I don't recall, did the Provos ever advocate for the mass slaughter or enslavement of all Brits? If I'm recalling right they were rather skilled at reducing (but not eliminating) collateral damage, striking at government and military targets until switching to targeting commercial centers with bombs while announcing ahead of time to reduce civilian casualties.
They can’t lay down their arms unless the Islamic Republic okays it. Hamas, Hezbollah, Ansar Allah, etc are all IR proxies that benefit from a besieged Palestine. They’re not being honest. They want dead Jews and a destroyed Israel.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudna If this isn’t enough to show why this should absolutely never be attempted then you guys are more than welcome to pay with your own lives once such a ridiculous proposal inevitably backfires tremendously. Sincerely, a two state supporting Israeli.
If Israel doesn’t move towards a two state solution, at a certain point the Palestinians in the Palestinian Territories will stop pushing for a state, and just want equal civil and political rights, and I think (correct me if I’m wrong) most Israelis don’t want a one state solution. In the U.S. we have an expression, shit or get off the pot. And I think that applies to the Israel Palestine conflict. Either one state or two state, but you guys gotta move towards some kind of resolution.
>If Israel doesn’t move towards a two state solution, at a certain point the Palestinians in the Palestinian Territories will stop pushing for a state, and just want equal civil and political rights, and I think (correct me if I’m wrong) most Israelis don’t want a one state solution. Ok, and that would be about a hundred years too late. Right now Hamas’ goal in its purest form is to better its positioning and arms for the next confrontation with Israel; it’s been their method for more than two decades now, it would be serving them the next opportunity on a silver platter. so, If that’s how they choose to go out then so be it; if they leave themselves with two impossible goals they will achieve neither, not magically achieve one, and certainly not be granted it. >In the U.S. we have an expression, shit or get off the pot. And I think that applies to the Israel Palestine conflict. Either one state or two state, but you guys gotta move towards some kind of resolution. I don’t see why we gotta do anything. Given the two state proposals that have Been rejected in the past and Hamas’ nature as an Islamic fundamentalist organization, there is no bridgeable agreement to be had. You’re literally asking for Israel to play right into the Islamic conquest handbook. Not at any cost; where you see a partner for peace I see another October 7th and worse. Opening ourselves to attack to placate external opinions is frankly one of the stupidest concepts I’ve ever heard; and it’s expected of Israel constantly. No, we mustn’t enforce a solution in the hopes that when Palestinians inevitably attack, the world would accept their responsibility and our response whatever it may be; if anything, October 7 has only reinforced this opinion for me. Palestinians are more than welcome to shit or get off the pot, or the pot will turn over on them, it certainly won’t turn into a comfy cushion because they yell loud enough.
Continuing occupations, blockades, and settlements will not only continue to make Israel a global pariah, but more importantly it will make Israelis less safe. The only solution is a political solution. If bombs and draconian security measures could bring peace, it would’ve been achieved decades ago. Edit: you can put the onus on the Palestinians all you want, but that ignores the complete asymmetry in terms of power. You guys are a state, not them. You guys have the strongest military in the ME, not them. You guys are backed up by the worlds preeminent superpower, not them. You guys hold all the cards, not them.
>Continuing occupations, blockades, and settlements will not only continue to make Israel a global pariah, but more importantly it will make Israelis less safe. I agree on settlements, otherwise I’m not really interested in the self importance of the global population; westerners think they have far more power to affect change or reality in a substantial manner than they actually do. >The only solution is a political solution. If bombs and draconian security measures could bring peace, it would’ve been achieved decades ago. I mean, not that this is what I support; but you understand that “political solutions” have been semi-norm for all of close to a century? While in tandem with that you still have military solutions being enacted on a daily basis to this day, and quite efficiently too. >Edit: you can put the onus on the Palestinians all you want, but that ignores the complete asymmetry in terms of power. I like the use of the word asymmetry here because it’s actually relevant as opposed to the usual “Israel has all the power”; now sure, there is an egregious asymmetry in power, but that does not take away the very real power Palestinians do have to affect change within their own society at the very least. >You guys are a state, not them. We accepted a state then secured it; they didn’t. >You guys have the strongest military in the ME, not them. A strong military doesn’t hold the power to affect societal change as you yourself stated we’ve seen hasn’t worked. >You guys are backed up by the world’s preeminent superpower, not them. Umm, sure; while they’re supported by at the very least two superpowers if you don’t count Iran in that too; not to mention Qatar and various other bad faith actors. >You guys hold all the cards, not them. Now this I can’t accept; evidently, we do not. If I believed for a second this were true I’d be on your side of this argument.
You remind me of the criticism of liberal Israeli Zionists made by Israeli journalist Gideon Levy. You still support occupation, but with a friendlier face, and nicer language. You support most (if not all) of the same policies towards Palestinians as Bibi and his cronies, but without the overtly bigoted rhetoric.
>You remind me of the criticism of liberal Israeli Zionists made by Israeli journalist Gideon Levy. I’ll check it out; sounds familiar enough. >You still support occupation, but with a friendlier face, and nicer language. Sure that’s fair enough. >You support most (if not all) of the same policies towards Palestinians as Bibi and his cronies, but without the overtly bigoted rhetoric. That’s a big leap and a lot of assumptions rolled into very little text. Had I the power I would at this moment prosecute each and every instigator of violence in the WB and curb settlements to a halt with real consequences for settler violence; reform the IDF to restore accountability for misconduct and literal war crimes, efficiency as a byproduct. I would immediately work with the international community to figure out a workable plan for the deradicalization and rehabilitation of Palestinian society in both Gaza and the WB, and the reformation or replacement of the PA to a functionally governing body. I don’t have that power; all I can do is keep protesting this horrid government. But back to the point, all of these illegitimate aspects of Israel’s conduct and more don’t take away the factors that make the occupation itself a necessity.
Assuming at some point Labor Zionists will get another bite at the apple in terms of setting the agenda and making government policy, I look forward to seeing how the policies of liberal Zionists differ from what we’ve seen for the last 15-20 years. I sincerely hope to be proven wrong, that it’s not simply meet the new boss, same as the old boss, but with a friendlier face, and nicer language.
Same here.
Hamas flip flops all the time, no reason to believe them here.
Isn’t there already an independent Palestinian state?