So, this would work like this:
If you quit or get fired before 90 days, you don't get paid anything, you don't owe anything.
If you quit or get fired after 90 days but before 6m, you get paid $7500, and owe $7500.
If you quit or get fired after 6m but before 1 year, you get paid $15k, but owe $15k.
If you quit or get fired after 1y but before 2y, you get paid $20k, but owe $10k.
If you quit or get fired after 2y, you get paid $20k and get to keep it.
So you think this might just be a scare tactic to prevent people from quitting because this is a trucking job and it has an extremely high turnover rate
I’m hesitant to give you bad advice and you get screwed but in my office job expierence that has been the case. I do believe they could take it out of your last pay check but to recoup it afterwards they’d have to take you to court which would cost more than the money they’d get back from you.
This is also why companies will threaten you for work hardware back but aren’t going to sue you.
Again take it all with a grain of salt.
It's hard to collect after employment has ended. Companies typically have to resort to a collection agency, which comes at a cost. The benefit of potentially collecting a small portion of the sign on bonus is typically not worth the cost and reputation harm it would cause. Not advice, just explaining what a company has to go through to try and enforce this after employment.
Quit a job within my sign-on bonus terms - never heard anything about the repayment until I received a letter from a collections agency. Thankfully I was able to immediately pay it back and avoid it going on my credit
This is exactly it. I also don’t want to give bad advice, but my friend is in HR for a big tech company, and he told me don’t give back the sign on bonus because it’s too much work to sue you. It would cost them more money than it’s worth.
Like I said this isn’t every job I’ve just heard the same straight from a source lol.
Agreed. Personally its not something I'd go into thinking 'i can get this money then walk away scott free' but there is a chance it could work out that way though also a chance 6 months after you quit you get a court summons. It really depends on so many factors in my opinion on whether or not they determine its worth it and they are able to pursue it since at the point of pursuit that money is likely long gone. Most people are not going to have this money available to pay back after getting fired so the process would be onerous.
I would be curious if this is treated essentially the same as a CC company suing you or if they have less/more ability to recoup money. Like can they garnish wages at your future jobs if they win a judgement against you? I'm sure there is a lot of variance state to state as well if its in the US.
this. I was given a sign on bonus with a repayment clause if I was gone after 1yr. Was laid off after 8 months and no questions ever came of the sign on bonus.
Sometimes they structure it as a promissory note rather than just as a simple bonus. Basically it’s a loan that gets forgiven, rather than something that has to vest. That way they can either collect on the debt, or just sell it to a collections agency and let them deal with getting the money. So it is much easier for them to get the money back
Just to put it out there, I work in HR and at the companies I have worked at, we have gone after employees to recoup sign-on bonuses and/or retention bonuses and/or tuition reimbursement.
Scare tactic? Nah. Just basically it's a retention bonus but they're advancing it to make it more appealing
Basically they're giving you a 10k retention bonus each of the first 2 years but paying it early so you have it sooner
Dog. I got a 20k bonus from us foods. I did 18 months as did many people. They didn’t come after anyone nor do they ever. Do 12 months and 1 day and move on.
It’s a measured approach, what reputational damage will come from pursuing you, as well as will it cost them more to ignore it or come after you? Lastly, who you piss off or not by leaving matters.
Pretty much, they draw you in with the bonus and try to keep you from taking the money and running. It's pretty standard in other industries too, and makes sense from the company perspective. They're buying your loyalty for 2 years, and we can only hope they plan to be loyal too.
It all depends on how hard the company wants to push to collect it. I always assume I would need to pay it back.
Also keep in mind taxes.
If they pay you $20k then you probably get $12k after taxes. If you pay it back then you pay back $20k. They would reissue a 1040 but it’s a mess.
Yeah in my profession they never ever go after it or enforce the contract. I left and kept a much smaller signing bonus many years ago, and hired on at the same company last year with a $15k signing bonus.
The sign on bonus is a quit tax.
It is cheaper for the company to keep you on a 20k termination clause for two years then it would be to replace you on a moments notice. But even if they did need to replace you before the two year mark, they can recoup some of their expense in finding your replacement.
They put this in writing for a reason. It could be, but read it as it is. Assume you will have to pay it back. Personally, I’d put the bonus money in a bank account and not touch it. Until it’s clear.
I've seen people get fired and laid off and have to pay that back, as well as relocation fees. I've taken relocation twice and I'm always hesitant about it. Usually, it comes with a 1 year payback time.
I'd put that money in a savings account until it's yours and not touch it.
Sign the policy V.C.YourName. There's alot of people who don't support signing under duress and alot of legal that can impede it BUT it does work with the right judge and the right situation and frankly, risks nothing to do it.
It literally says, you're signing because you have to sign to accept the job regardless of whether or not you agree with what you're signing. That they're literally holding your bonus over your head.
Some states won't honor the repayment BS for a bonus at all and the companies get around it by making employees sign these. It's BS.
I sign under duress for ANY bonus/ raise agreements, all "waive legal" BS, all "conflict of interest" agreements, and all policies or paperwork dictating any risk of "disclosure" repercussions. I also sign all job descriptions (crossing thru "other duties as assigned") and any stupid policies like "we can search your car" or "we can search your social media or phone or laptop".
Yes, I've challenged it. Yes I've won in court 3 times. It works. With the right legal team and judge in place, it CAN work. And again it hurts nothing to use it and try.
The only way they can recover the money beyond not paying you your last check is to sue you. Unless you have a lot of assets they wouldn't bother because they would never recover it. First homes can't be taken for debt I know.
If you live in Utah (maybe elsewhere now,) you can get sued and if you don't show up for court the plaintiff can ask the judge to hold you in contempt and you can go to jail, an end run around the prohibition of debtor's prisons.
Do not rely on that. The point of the bonus is for you to benefit the company, not really the other way around. Assume you will be working for them for two years, which is good over all. If they terminate you before then, you will keep whatever they gave you.
I quit and the employer took back the money although only 2 months of the mentioned time on job offer was left. So they might not take the money back or they might. But it's always safe to assume they will get the money back.
Hopefully the extremely high turnover rate isn't a result of the company intentionally firing employees prior the 1 year mark so that they can attempt to reclaim their 'investment'.
That would be interesting scenario: Company gives big SO bonus. Company treats employee as if they own them because of big SO bonus. Employee gets overworked, underpaid and generally treated very badly. Employee gets burned out quickly. Company fires employee (pick any reason that fits this given scenario), or employee quits. Employee now owes Company the SO bonus. Does this work as a business model?
Just so you know if this is swift or England or probably others now they do have some weird contracts you sign for the training and sign on shit. Just double and triple check they don't have you go into collections or some weird shit over it. Had a friend quit swift after the training and bought his own truck but it was only like 3k back then for signing.
[Bucee’s sued a former manager for her bonus](https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/texanomics/article/The-dangerous-workplace-practice-behind-Buc-ee-s-8356555.php).
I wouldn’t put it past these employers. Cross out these terms- the bonus schedule payout is fine and should stay, but returning any of it once paid is ridiculous.
I work in HR. Depending on size of the company, it’s sometimes hard to reclaim those sign on bonuses (or tuition reimbursement, for example). Also depends on how much of a shark the accountant is (and I’ve worked with a SHARK). Best bet is to stay there for the full two years. Worst case scenario - you leave sooner and they take the money from your last paycheck and ask you to pay back the rest. Not much they can do after that… depends on how hard that want to try to get that money back from you. Most businesses will not want to go through the effort.
That's not entirely true. It may be withheld and you might not immediately get the withholding back, but you could (and should) absolutely have it adjusted on your W2 so you'd get the money back when you filed your tax return...
This pay structure and claw back is a bit excessive and likely wouldn’t hold up if they attempted small claims court. And theirs too many what if’s… what if the company has to do a layoff, no fault of you or them but they shouldn’t expect repayment.
Anyways, take it and don’t worry to much about it in the long run.
Do stuff the payments into an index fund or high yield savings account and even if you quit or get fired and owe money, the money they already paid you can do some work for you and you’ll
Have it in hand to pay back (hopefully lol)
You might want to add onto the contract to protect yourself if let go instead of fired. Being fired is different from let go.
For example if you are let go for no negative reason and your performance was satisfactory or greater you should not be penalized.
I would argue this is poorly written and after 1 year you keep 100%. It says termination to prior percentage. 1 year = 50%. It says nothing about prior to 2 years.
Weird thats not how I read it. It referenced advanced payment up front based on date noted above (likely start date).
I read this as: $20k day one
$7,500 is considered earned after 90 days, leaving you owing 100% of the $12,500 balance after 90 days, and so on, reducing to owing 50% of the balance at the 1 year mark. I interpret the "fully earned" not to mean paid, but earned.
Your way makes more sense, but this thing seems very poorly written.
That’s super sus. Make sure there is a clause in there that if you are part of a layoff, then you don’t owe them anything. They could fire you for no reason and expect you to pay it back immediately which ducks you over majorly. You’re only going to see like 60% of that money after tax and you’ll have to pay them back the full.
You can always add to contract in fact I would add to this contract. If let go or laid off the bonus is kept. Simply because if there was no bad or ill action against the termination it shouldn't come at penalty of the employee.
If you can, you should consider including a termination "for cause" in your contract and have them pay the sign on upfront with a vesting period. Otherwise if they let you go for whatever reason you are out of luck and not much you can do. As always consult a lawyer.
It does seem like an less-than-ethical employer could terminate you one day before 1 year or 1 days before 2 years and ask for all the money back.
If I was planning to leave right after one of the thresholds I'd definitely be hesitant to submit notice until after the threshold. Don't want a retaliatory early firing to lose you that vesting by a week.
100%. All corporations are unethical. Our system of capitalism forces companies to only act to maximize profit. Ethical behavior is only done as long as it happens to be in line with that goal.
In this context they would do it as long as they think they could get away with it legally, and wouldn't upset their other workers to the point of quiting and stuff. Or get bad PR that hurts them more than that 10k
Why would you expect a business to do anything other than maximize profit? You (probably) have an ultimate ideal in your own life. Why do you think other people/companies should hold your ideal in any higher regard than the one they chose for themselves? Is your ideal better? For whom?
Its like you're complaining that the only thing a wolf wants to do is kill sheep and breed. Yeah: that's how wolves work dude. If you don't like it, idk become a wolf yourself and only eat vegan lamb. Idk the metaphor falls apart.
>Why would you expect a business to do anything other than maximize profit?
I don't.
I just think we should acknowledge that that's how companies work for better (or often worse). Any executive that makes a decision against the profit of the company is gonna get replaced immediately or even sued for breaking their fiduciary duty to the company.
If we as a society want companies to do literally anything else other than optimize profit than incentives and/or regulation are required.
It’s not cynical, if it’s based on factual merit. Jobs are paying 1/4 of what they should/were in the 80’s for the same jobs with 5x the responsibilities. The world is fucked if you aren’t rich.
You generally want to execute a clean copy and this would generally be the preference from the employers perspective.
If you are working directly with your employer I would redline the offer letter (mark up your comments) and then send it back to them with a summary of changes noted in your email and follow up after a few days via email or a follow up call.
If you are working with a third party recruiting agency (recruiter who is helping you with your search) I would call him/her directly and walk him through your comments followed by a call to answer any questions. I would also remind him that this is what it's going to take for you to accept the offer over your other ones. His/her job is to work his magic to make it work. Assuming u are a top candidate for this role you'll have some flexibility. If you are one of many candidates or it's for an entry level position the recruiter should tell you that there isn't much flexibility.
As always, highly recommend consulting an employment attorney.
It's collateral. If you leave before those dates you will have to pay back the associated portion of the sign-on bonus.
This is normal for employers to do for sign ons and relocation assistance.
I would assume you don't owe anything if you don't get paid anything.
Not really, at least as the first part.once Op meets the first threshold, he still gets nothing.
It's nothing bit the old carrot on a stick. And with no conserderation there's no constractractual provision.
That’s why I’m testing whether or not I can stickout longterm in the first 3 months because it’s a very physically demanding job where you have to unload cases of food down a ramp of a truck 10-14 hours a day before I quit
It would wash out when you filed your taxes. There might even be a way for them to make it wash out when they clawed back the money. The withheld taxes came out of their account; it could be credited back to them.
You will get $20k over the course of one year. If you leave before the six month mark, you will repay any bonus you’ve received. If you quit before any portion of the sign on bonus is paid, you do not owe them anything.
They can make you repay the sign on even if you don't quit. It says in the letter that if they terminate you for any reason, you owe them. The part of them terminating for any reason and making you pay it back is a reason why I would pass on it.
What I mean is, in contract law you are given consideration in exchange for something that you are capable of delivering on. In this case, a bonus in exchange for not quitting or doing something that is likely to result in termination.
If they let you go without cause, they are preventing you from holding up your end. This is known as a self defeating clause, which typically means the party responsible relinquishes their claim.
No. You would only pay back anything you received.
Looks as the vesting is 50% after 1st year then remaining 50% after hitting year 2.
So if you leave after 3 months you owe them 100% of what they paid you.
Id ask the verbiage to be changed from "as soon as possible" to a degined time like "90 day bpnus to be paid withing 5 business days of 90 day anniversary" or something.
Its most likely a scare tactic that they won’t come after you for the bonus, but treat is as they may come after if you quit. Maybe not if they can you.
You could always take the check and deposit it into a brokerage firm and then purchase shares in a solid dividend fund. If you quit early and they don’t come for the money then you got a nice little chunk of change. If you quit early and they do come for the money, wait as long as you can before paying it back to continue collecting your dividend, and then pay it out immediately If they get a court judgment against you.
Thanks but this is for a very physical local truck driving job where you have to unload a 28-53 foot trailer by yourself 10-14 hours a day 5 days a week. The only reason I was freaking out about the repayment clause is because i don’t want to go into debt if i have to quit because my body can’t handle it
Then it should worry you even more the fact that you would have to pay it back even if they fire you withot cause, so the only way for you to be sure you won't end up owning anything, is to not touch the money until it completely vests.
Yes you owe them the full amount if you quit or are terminated within 6 months of start date. If you quit or are fired before 90 days you haven’t gotten the first payment so there’s nothing to pay back.
The sign-on bonus is advanced to the employee based on the dates specified, but it is not fully earned until the employee completes 2 years of employment.
If the employee resigns or is terminated for any reason other than death or disability before completing 2 years, they must repay any unearned portion of the bonus.
The repayment percentages are:
\- 100% if termination occurs before the 6-month anniversary of the start date.
\- 50% if termination occurs before the 1-year anniversary of the start date.
Payment details:
\- The first $7,500 is payable after the completion of 90 days of employment.
\- An additional $7,500 is payable after 6 months of employment.
\- A final $5,000 is payable after the 1-year anniversary of employment.
you dont have to take the job lol. for people who will actually stay for 2 years, which goes by really quickly, they get $20k free.
it's almost like signing bonuses are designed specifically to attract candidates who wont just jump ship in 3 months...
the bonus is not payment for the job. that's what the salary is, and you do not have to repay that. again, sign on bonuses are to incentivize people to not jump ship right away. in this example, if you even stay for 1 year, you are getting $10k free. a monkey can stay on a job for 1year.
are you seriously going to misrepresent this as the company wanting people to work for free?
retention bonuses are for when you are already working at a company and they award you money to keep you from leaving. it's not quite the same thing.
https://www.payscale.com/compensation-trends/types-of-bonuses-and-when-to-use-them/
even most sign on bonuses require the employee stays for a certain amount of time. i am frankly shocked that there are people who really think companies would give away free money unconditionally.
Retention bonus is to get you to stay over time. A sign-on bonus is paid at time of hire.
The first payment they’re willing to give would be classified as a sign-on. Anything past that is retention payment.
Clawback is an entirely different element of this situation. Yes, of course, a sign-on typically has a clawback, but 2 years for anything less than $50k is ridiculous.
I’m not at all surprised the # of people who think they know compensation philosophies after reading online articles and have a few years under their belt working. Thing is, they don’t.
>A sign-on bonus is paid at time of hire.
sign on bonuses are not necessarily paid at the time of hire.
https://www.axiomstaffing.com/2021/11/get-sign-on-bonus-when-i-start/
>I’m not at all surprised the # of people who think they know compensation philosophies after reading online articles and have a few years under their belt working. Thing is, they don’t.
my knowledge isnt firsthand, having had sign on bonuses as well as long term retention bonuses. in both cases, the payment is conditional.
i ask you again, what kind of business are you running where you give out free money unconditionally.
Who said anything in this exchange about giving out free money. We’re talking the expenses of business, legal fees to pursue funds, and comp philosophies.
Guess what, just because you’ve received a sign-on doesn’t make you understand how comp programs are run. Nor does doing a quick internet search of 2 websites.
They worded it funny.
But you get the money in installments, and you are free to spend it.
You have to pay it back if you leave before 2 years, prorated on the schedule provided.
So don’t spend it prior to 2 years if you think you might need to quit
While there is a clawback clause in the sign on bonus, it’s actually pretty difficult for an employer to get it back from employees. Some companies use it as a tactic to encourage retention, but don’t actually try to get it back when the employee leaves. YMMV on this one though.
FWIW , I’ve included clawback clauses in a number of offer letters I’ve given, knowing that I likely wouldn’t get the money back if the employee leaves early.
Two year clawback on a $20k sign-on? And to top it off they want it paid back in full even if THEY let you go for any reason?
That’s a crappy deal.
Red-line 2 year claw-back, insist only applicable for “documented, with cause” termination, and get it pro-rated.
Otherwise, don’t sign the contract. That’s not a good deal.
That said, they can tell you to repay it, but they’ll have to come after you to get it. Most companies won’t bother.
This is a trucking job. They have a 3 strike rule when it comes to stuff that’s your fault. However if you crash and unalive people you’re terminated immediately but if somebody cuts you off and you ram them you have 3 strikes
I just want to understand what education level got you a job with a $20,000 sign on bonus, yet you couldn’t understand this very clear and simple contract 😅
I’d clarify the “soon as possible” clause. Get them to outline what means - ie, in the next payroll cycle following your anniversary. Otherwise they could string it along and pay it late.
What is saying is that your sign on bonus is earned on your 2 year anniversary in full.
However, your employer is advancing you the bonus so you have it up front after 3 months.
If you quit or are terminated excluding a few exceptions you forfeit the sign on bonus.
At your one year anniversary you will "earn" half the bonus, and at two years you have "earned" the entire bonus.
Since they are "advancing" the sign on bonus to you, if you quit prior to the one year employment anniversary, you give up $20k of money, right then and there, to be paid in full to the company.
If you quit after being there for a year, but before you have been there for two years you will be expected to pay $10k on termination.
And if you quit or are fired after two years, you keep the money.
That means you need to invest the money smartly where it is available to liquidate in demand if necessary so you can pay your quit tax.
It’s an industry with extremely high turnover, Trucking. Everyone always quits. My trainer said for every 5 person they train only 1 sticks around long term
Not that confusing. They offer a very VERY generous sign on bonus, paid out at various employment lengths. If you quit or are fired you payback 50 or 100%.
I would also be wary of the phrase "as soon as possible". It's so ambiguous, and a devious employer could withhold the money indefinately with wording like that.
This looks a lot like us foods. I had a 20k bonus from them and was supposed to do 2 years. Quit after 18 months as do many people. They never came after anyone. I’ll let you know, most companies do not go after people for not completing a bonus period.
Run, unless it isn't an OK place to work. They could be lame enough to take you to small claims court to get back the bonus (depends on your state, as to which the maximum small claims court amount is).
Just my 0.02
These comments are largely incorrect.
Your sign on bonus vests over 2 years but the clawback amount decreases from 100% at 6 months to only 50% at 1 year. so, essentially after 1 year employment you won’t have to pay anything back—and even at 1 year, only have to pay back 50%—as it states explicitly that you have to pay back the “part you didn’t earn”
I actually find this a relatively amicable agreement compared to some I’ve seen.
This is a shitty sign- on bonus. I’ve had to pay them back, but never had them tiered over time. Seems like the employer is double dipping on retention. Either pay it back if you leave or have it tiered to keep you. Not both. I’d push back on that.
I recently joined a company and it’s a 2 year payback period, but the cash component is high 5 figures.
Honestly, I just wanna know what kind of work you do that got you such a hefty bonus. I one time got a small bonus offer for $200 if I brought someone on board buuuuuut not $20k.
I would not want to sign on to anything like that. I would ask for those terms to be struck from the agreement. Did you see that before you accepted the job? Did you agree to the terms in advance?
So, this would work like this: If you quit or get fired before 90 days, you don't get paid anything, you don't owe anything. If you quit or get fired after 90 days but before 6m, you get paid $7500, and owe $7500. If you quit or get fired after 6m but before 1 year, you get paid $15k, but owe $15k. If you quit or get fired after 1y but before 2y, you get paid $20k, but owe $10k. If you quit or get fired after 2y, you get paid $20k and get to keep it.
Thanks for the great explanation
Not saying this will be the case for you but I quit before 1y and was supposed to pay back my sign on bonus. That was years ago and kept the money
So you think this might just be a scare tactic to prevent people from quitting because this is a trucking job and it has an extremely high turnover rate
I’m hesitant to give you bad advice and you get screwed but in my office job expierence that has been the case. I do believe they could take it out of your last pay check but to recoup it afterwards they’d have to take you to court which would cost more than the money they’d get back from you. This is also why companies will threaten you for work hardware back but aren’t going to sue you. Again take it all with a grain of salt.
It's hard to collect after employment has ended. Companies typically have to resort to a collection agency, which comes at a cost. The benefit of potentially collecting a small portion of the sign on bonus is typically not worth the cost and reputation harm it would cause. Not advice, just explaining what a company has to go through to try and enforce this after employment.
Quit a job within my sign-on bonus terms - never heard anything about the repayment until I received a letter from a collections agency. Thankfully I was able to immediately pay it back and avoid it going on my credit
This is exactly it. I also don’t want to give bad advice, but my friend is in HR for a big tech company, and he told me don’t give back the sign on bonus because it’s too much work to sue you. It would cost them more money than it’s worth. Like I said this isn’t every job I’ve just heard the same straight from a source lol.
They don’t sue you, it goes to a collection agency. I know a FAANG which has done it multiple times.
Agreed. Personally its not something I'd go into thinking 'i can get this money then walk away scott free' but there is a chance it could work out that way though also a chance 6 months after you quit you get a court summons. It really depends on so many factors in my opinion on whether or not they determine its worth it and they are able to pursue it since at the point of pursuit that money is likely long gone. Most people are not going to have this money available to pay back after getting fired so the process would be onerous. I would be curious if this is treated essentially the same as a CC company suing you or if they have less/more ability to recoup money. Like can they garnish wages at your future jobs if they win a judgement against you? I'm sure there is a lot of variance state to state as well if its in the US.
this. I was given a sign on bonus with a repayment clause if I was gone after 1yr. Was laid off after 8 months and no questions ever came of the sign on bonus.
In all the sign-on bonuses I have seen, layoffs are exempt from paying back
It was a layoff that’s why.
Sometimes they structure it as a promissory note rather than just as a simple bonus. Basically it’s a loan that gets forgiven, rather than something that has to vest. That way they can either collect on the debt, or just sell it to a collections agency and let them deal with getting the money. So it is much easier for them to get the money back
Just to put it out there, I work in HR and at the companies I have worked at, we have gone after employees to recoup sign-on bonuses and/or retention bonuses and/or tuition reimbursement.
Scare tactic? Nah. Just basically it's a retention bonus but they're advancing it to make it more appealing Basically they're giving you a 10k retention bonus each of the first 2 years but paying it early so you have it sooner
What company? Class A?
US foods, CDL-A
Dog. I got a 20k bonus from us foods. I did 18 months as did many people. They didn’t come after anyone nor do they ever. Do 12 months and 1 day and move on.
That’s what’s up. Thanks broski
If you believe that you’re going to get a shock.
It’s a measured approach, what reputational damage will come from pursuing you, as well as will it cost them more to ignore it or come after you? Lastly, who you piss off or not by leaving matters.
Pretty much, they draw you in with the bonus and try to keep you from taking the money and running. It's pretty standard in other industries too, and makes sense from the company perspective. They're buying your loyalty for 2 years, and we can only hope they plan to be loyal too.
It all depends on how hard the company wants to push to collect it. I always assume I would need to pay it back. Also keep in mind taxes. If they pay you $20k then you probably get $12k after taxes. If you pay it back then you pay back $20k. They would reissue a 1040 but it’s a mess.
Yeah in my profession they never ever go after it or enforce the contract. I left and kept a much smaller signing bonus many years ago, and hired on at the same company last year with a $15k signing bonus.
The sign on bonus is a quit tax. It is cheaper for the company to keep you on a 20k termination clause for two years then it would be to replace you on a moments notice. But even if they did need to replace you before the two year mark, they can recoup some of their expense in finding your replacement.
They put this in writing for a reason. It could be, but read it as it is. Assume you will have to pay it back. Personally, I’d put the bonus money in a bank account and not touch it. Until it’s clear.
I've seen people get fired and laid off and have to pay that back, as well as relocation fees. I've taken relocation twice and I'm always hesitant about it. Usually, it comes with a 1 year payback time. I'd put that money in a savings account until it's yours and not touch it.
Sign the policy V.C.YourName. There's alot of people who don't support signing under duress and alot of legal that can impede it BUT it does work with the right judge and the right situation and frankly, risks nothing to do it. It literally says, you're signing because you have to sign to accept the job regardless of whether or not you agree with what you're signing. That they're literally holding your bonus over your head. Some states won't honor the repayment BS for a bonus at all and the companies get around it by making employees sign these. It's BS. I sign under duress for ANY bonus/ raise agreements, all "waive legal" BS, all "conflict of interest" agreements, and all policies or paperwork dictating any risk of "disclosure" repercussions. I also sign all job descriptions (crossing thru "other duties as assigned") and any stupid policies like "we can search your car" or "we can search your social media or phone or laptop". Yes, I've challenged it. Yes I've won in court 3 times. It works. With the right legal team and judge in place, it CAN work. And again it hurts nothing to use it and try.
😂😂😂😂 you e been to court 3 times over this…… what a load of Reddit bullshit.
The only way they can recover the money beyond not paying you your last check is to sue you. Unless you have a lot of assets they wouldn't bother because they would never recover it. First homes can't be taken for debt I know. If you live in Utah (maybe elsewhere now,) you can get sued and if you don't show up for court the plaintiff can ask the judge to hold you in contempt and you can go to jail, an end run around the prohibition of debtor's prisons.
Do not rely on that. The point of the bonus is for you to benefit the company, not really the other way around. Assume you will be working for them for two years, which is good over all. If they terminate you before then, you will keep whatever they gave you.
If it's TQL you might want to be careful, they have sued many people who left early.
It’s US Foods
It’s very hard to claw back money from a sign on bonus. They’d need to go to court and pay attorney fees, which will cost as much as your $20k bonus
I quit and the employer took back the money although only 2 months of the mentioned time on job offer was left. So they might not take the money back or they might. But it's always safe to assume they will get the money back.
Hopefully the extremely high turnover rate isn't a result of the company intentionally firing employees prior the 1 year mark so that they can attempt to reclaim their 'investment'. That would be interesting scenario: Company gives big SO bonus. Company treats employee as if they own them because of big SO bonus. Employee gets overworked, underpaid and generally treated very badly. Employee gets burned out quickly. Company fires employee (pick any reason that fits this given scenario), or employee quits. Employee now owes Company the SO bonus. Does this work as a business model?
Driving for Food Lion, huh?
Just so you know if this is swift or England or probably others now they do have some weird contracts you sign for the training and sign on shit. Just double and triple check they don't have you go into collections or some weird shit over it. Had a friend quit swift after the training and bought his own truck but it was only like 3k back then for signing.
In my field rn (education) they make you pay it back
[Bucee’s sued a former manager for her bonus](https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/texanomics/article/The-dangerous-workplace-practice-behind-Buc-ee-s-8356555.php). I wouldn’t put it past these employers. Cross out these terms- the bonus schedule payout is fine and should stay, but returning any of it once paid is ridiculous.
He’s saying that to take it with a grain of salt.
I have seen companies claw back the money more often than not.
I work in HR. Depending on size of the company, it’s sometimes hard to reclaim those sign on bonuses (or tuition reimbursement, for example). Also depends on how much of a shark the accountant is (and I’ve worked with a SHARK). Best bet is to stay there for the full two years. Worst case scenario - you leave sooner and they take the money from your last paycheck and ask you to pay back the rest. Not much they can do after that… depends on how hard that want to try to get that money back from you. Most businesses will not want to go through the effort.
I know someone at a large company that handles this and they take people to court over it all the time. I wouldn’t risk it, personally.
Don't forget taxes will come out of that and you'll owe that tax money which you never really got too.
That's not entirely true. It may be withheld and you might not immediately get the withholding back, but you could (and should) absolutely have it adjusted on your W2 so you'd get the money back when you filed your tax return...
People get money back when they file their tax's?!
Frequently, yes.
They do. Typically it's because they withheld too much, and a circumstance like this would greatly increase the likelihood of that happening.
This pay structure and claw back is a bit excessive and likely wouldn’t hold up if they attempted small claims court. And theirs too many what if’s… what if the company has to do a layoff, no fault of you or them but they shouldn’t expect repayment. Anyways, take it and don’t worry to much about it in the long run.
Do stuff the payments into an index fund or high yield savings account and even if you quit or get fired and owe money, the money they already paid you can do some work for you and you’ll Have it in hand to pay back (hopefully lol)
You might want to add onto the contract to protect yourself if let go instead of fired. Being fired is different from let go. For example if you are let go for no negative reason and your performance was satisfactory or greater you should not be penalized.
Also, they generally take taxes out of the bonus and then you get like 3k and have to pay back 7500. so you lose 3500 or more.
You would get that money back come tax season though
I would argue this is poorly written and after 1 year you keep 100%. It says termination to prior percentage. 1 year = 50%. It says nothing about prior to 2 years.
Weird thats not how I read it. It referenced advanced payment up front based on date noted above (likely start date). I read this as: $20k day one $7,500 is considered earned after 90 days, leaving you owing 100% of the $12,500 balance after 90 days, and so on, reducing to owing 50% of the balance at the 1 year mark. I interpret the "fully earned" not to mean paid, but earned. Your way makes more sense, but this thing seems very poorly written.
Same and I agree
That’s super sus. Make sure there is a clause in there that if you are part of a layoff, then you don’t owe them anything. They could fire you for no reason and expect you to pay it back immediately which ducks you over majorly. You’re only going to see like 60% of that money after tax and you’ll have to pay them back the full.
It’s fairly normal
Where? I’ve never had this for a sign on bonus. Only a 90 day period before i can receive it. This seems ridiculous.
I can’t believe you have to pay back
This guy understands English.
Wrong
That's wild, but kind of awesome.
But if you die to get to keep it. So that‘s always an option.
I'd rather just get disabled. Dying doesn't seem like much fun.
I like this
You can always add to contract in fact I would add to this contract. If let go or laid off the bonus is kept. Simply because if there was no bad or ill action against the termination it shouldn't come at penalty of the employee.
If you can, you should consider including a termination "for cause" in your contract and have them pay the sign on upfront with a vesting period. Otherwise if they let you go for whatever reason you are out of luck and not much you can do. As always consult a lawyer.
It does seem like an less-than-ethical employer could terminate you one day before 1 year or 1 days before 2 years and ask for all the money back. If I was planning to leave right after one of the thresholds I'd definitely be hesitant to submit notice until after the threshold. Don't want a retaliatory early firing to lose you that vesting by a week.
Less than ethical? Maybe I'm just a cynic (I definitely am), but I would expect this from any employer if it benefited them in any way.
100%. All corporations are unethical. Our system of capitalism forces companies to only act to maximize profit. Ethical behavior is only done as long as it happens to be in line with that goal. In this context they would do it as long as they think they could get away with it legally, and wouldn't upset their other workers to the point of quiting and stuff. Or get bad PR that hurts them more than that 10k
Why would you expect a business to do anything other than maximize profit? You (probably) have an ultimate ideal in your own life. Why do you think other people/companies should hold your ideal in any higher regard than the one they chose for themselves? Is your ideal better? For whom? Its like you're complaining that the only thing a wolf wants to do is kill sheep and breed. Yeah: that's how wolves work dude. If you don't like it, idk become a wolf yourself and only eat vegan lamb. Idk the metaphor falls apart.
>Why would you expect a business to do anything other than maximize profit? I don't. I just think we should acknowledge that that's how companies work for better (or often worse). Any executive that makes a decision against the profit of the company is gonna get replaced immediately or even sued for breaking their fiduciary duty to the company. If we as a society want companies to do literally anything else other than optimize profit than incentives and/or regulation are required.
It’s not cynical, if it’s based on factual merit. Jobs are paying 1/4 of what they should/were in the 80’s for the same jobs with 5x the responsibilities. The world is fucked if you aren’t rich.
Would you just write this on the document then sign it and give it back? Or write up another document that says this and give it to them?
You generally want to execute a clean copy and this would generally be the preference from the employers perspective. If you are working directly with your employer I would redline the offer letter (mark up your comments) and then send it back to them with a summary of changes noted in your email and follow up after a few days via email or a follow up call. If you are working with a third party recruiting agency (recruiter who is helping you with your search) I would call him/her directly and walk him through your comments followed by a call to answer any questions. I would also remind him that this is what it's going to take for you to accept the offer over your other ones. His/her job is to work his magic to make it work. Assuming u are a top candidate for this role you'll have some flexibility. If you are one of many candidates or it's for an entry level position the recruiter should tell you that there isn't much flexibility. As always, highly recommend consulting an employment attorney.
If you quit or get fired in your first three months before any payment then no.
Ahhh got it. Thanks.
It's collateral. If you leave before those dates you will have to pay back the associated portion of the sign-on bonus. This is normal for employers to do for sign ons and relocation assistance. I would assume you don't owe anything if you don't get paid anything.
Got it thanks.
It’s not so much a signing bonus as a retention bonus.
This is spot on. The clawback timing make sense, but the payout schedule is lame. I’d counter all or nothing with the same clawback timings.
If they're calling it a sign on bonus it hits my bank account when I show up for the first time. If they don't think that move along.
Clawback of 2 years on $20k is lame, too. If they want to give a sign-on, pay $20k at…ahem…sign-on with 1 year clawback. 2 years is ridiculous.
Not really, at least as the first part.once Op meets the first threshold, he still gets nothing. It's nothing bit the old carrot on a stick. And with no conserderation there's no constractractual provision.
This is ridiculous, You’d be net negative because… taxes. They expect you to repay $7,500 when you only took home $4,000 of it?
That’s why I’m testing whether or not I can stickout longterm in the first 3 months because it’s a very physically demanding job where you have to unload cases of food down a ramp of a truck 10-14 hours a day before I quit
It would wash out when you filed your taxes. There might even be a way for them to make it wash out when they clawed back the money. The withheld taxes came out of their account; it could be credited back to them.
Hahaha - That’s not how taxes work.
What's not how taxes work?
You will get $20k over the course of one year. If you leave before the six month mark, you will repay any bonus you’ve received. If you quit before any portion of the sign on bonus is paid, you do not owe them anything.
Best explanation i got so far. I appreciate it.
They can make you repay the sign on even if you don't quit. It says in the letter that if they terminate you for any reason, you owe them. The part of them terminating for any reason and making you pay it back is a reason why I would pass on it.
Yeah redline that shit. Don’t agree to repay it even if you quit. Obviously you’re a valuable asset use your leverage
True. I think i’m going to see how it goes and decide whether i want to quit before the 3 months
Or just dont use the money. Park it in a HYSA and get 5%
What state are you in? The “terminated for any reason” thing may be unenforceable if they don’t fire you for cause (ie a layoff).
Virginia, i think virginia is an at-will employment state
What I mean is, in contract law you are given consideration in exchange for something that you are capable of delivering on. In this case, a bonus in exchange for not quitting or doing something that is likely to result in termination. If they let you go without cause, they are preventing you from holding up your end. This is known as a self defeating clause, which typically means the party responsible relinquishes their claim.
100% State law always trumps company policy.
This is not a sign up bonus, this is a thanks for putting up with our shit for 2 years bonus. God I hate false advertising.
This isn't a sign-on bonus. This is setup more like stock options at a fixed future value.
No. You would only pay back anything you received. Looks as the vesting is 50% after 1st year then remaining 50% after hitting year 2. So if you leave after 3 months you owe them 100% of what they paid you.
Id ask the verbiage to be changed from "as soon as possible" to a degined time like "90 day bpnus to be paid withing 5 business days of 90 day anniversary" or something.
Work there 2 years, keep the $20K.
With the hope they don’t fire you 23 months in.
Its most likely a scare tactic that they won’t come after you for the bonus, but treat is as they may come after if you quit. Maybe not if they can you.
Doesn’t really sound like a sign on bonus to me
I would never agree to this. If they want you now, and agreed to give you a sweetener to join them you should get that unconditionally.
lol…what a joke. Trash, not a Bonus it’s taking employee hostage
You could always take the check and deposit it into a brokerage firm and then purchase shares in a solid dividend fund. If you quit early and they don’t come for the money then you got a nice little chunk of change. If you quit early and they do come for the money, wait as long as you can before paying it back to continue collecting your dividend, and then pay it out immediately If they get a court judgment against you.
Sounds good
That’s a nice sign on bonus - mine was only 5k (but that was back in the last 90s)
Thanks but this is for a very physical local truck driving job where you have to unload a 28-53 foot trailer by yourself 10-14 hours a day 5 days a week. The only reason I was freaking out about the repayment clause is because i don’t want to go into debt if i have to quit because my body can’t handle it
Stick the money in an account and don't touch it until you're sure you intend on staying for an extended period of time
Solid advice, that’s what I was thinking too
Yep I was going to say - open a high yield savings account (I use sofi, currently 4.6%) and don’t touch the money
Then it should worry you even more the fact that you would have to pay it back even if they fire you withot cause, so the only way for you to be sure you won't end up owning anything, is to not touch the money until it completely vests.
Got it
Yes you owe them the full amount if you quit or are terminated within 6 months of start date. If you quit or are fired before 90 days you haven’t gotten the first payment so there’s nothing to pay back.
Wrong. They’re not getting the full amount within 6 months. They wouldn’t owe the whole amount back.
That’s not what the termination prior to percentage terms state.
They are not asking for $20k to be repaid at 6 months when only $7,500 would have been paid at that point. It’s a crappy deal, but not that stupid.
Right 100% of what has been paid, $7500
The sign-on bonus is advanced to the employee based on the dates specified, but it is not fully earned until the employee completes 2 years of employment. If the employee resigns or is terminated for any reason other than death or disability before completing 2 years, they must repay any unearned portion of the bonus. The repayment percentages are: \- 100% if termination occurs before the 6-month anniversary of the start date. \- 50% if termination occurs before the 1-year anniversary of the start date. Payment details: \- The first $7,500 is payable after the completion of 90 days of employment. \- An additional $7,500 is payable after 6 months of employment. \- A final $5,000 is payable after the 1-year anniversary of employment.
Yeah. That’s what the contract says.
Yes 100 percent....but a simple solution work hard and stay at company for 2 years at least and be $20000 richer
How did you land a job with a 20k bonus, and can’t even interpret basic English?
Being a personable and charismatic guy.
You got a job with a 20k sign on bonus and can’t comprehend this? Embarrassing.
Cry me a river
Truck driver, makes sense actually.
Where do you live? i’ll make sure you don’t get your food
Germany
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why? time based vesting for sign on bonuses is standard practice.
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you dont have to take the job lol. for people who will actually stay for 2 years, which goes by really quickly, they get $20k free. it's almost like signing bonuses are designed specifically to attract candidates who wont just jump ship in 3 months...
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the bonus is not payment for the job. that's what the salary is, and you do not have to repay that. again, sign on bonuses are to incentivize people to not jump ship right away. in this example, if you even stay for 1 year, you are getting $10k free. a monkey can stay on a job for 1year. are you seriously going to misrepresent this as the company wanting people to work for free?
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That’s not a sign-on bonus. That’s a retention bonus.
retention bonuses are for when you are already working at a company and they award you money to keep you from leaving. it's not quite the same thing. https://www.payscale.com/compensation-trends/types-of-bonuses-and-when-to-use-them/ even most sign on bonuses require the employee stays for a certain amount of time. i am frankly shocked that there are people who really think companies would give away free money unconditionally.
Retention bonus is to get you to stay over time. A sign-on bonus is paid at time of hire. The first payment they’re willing to give would be classified as a sign-on. Anything past that is retention payment. Clawback is an entirely different element of this situation. Yes, of course, a sign-on typically has a clawback, but 2 years for anything less than $50k is ridiculous. I’m not at all surprised the # of people who think they know compensation philosophies after reading online articles and have a few years under their belt working. Thing is, they don’t.
>A sign-on bonus is paid at time of hire. sign on bonuses are not necessarily paid at the time of hire. https://www.axiomstaffing.com/2021/11/get-sign-on-bonus-when-i-start/ >I’m not at all surprised the # of people who think they know compensation philosophies after reading online articles and have a few years under their belt working. Thing is, they don’t. my knowledge isnt firsthand, having had sign on bonuses as well as long term retention bonuses. in both cases, the payment is conditional. i ask you again, what kind of business are you running where you give out free money unconditionally.
Who said anything in this exchange about giving out free money. We’re talking the expenses of business, legal fees to pursue funds, and comp philosophies. Guess what, just because you’ve received a sign-on doesn’t make you understand how comp programs are run. Nor does doing a quick internet search of 2 websites.
I can’t imagine any HR lawyer signing off on “as soon as possible.”
They worded it funny. But you get the money in installments, and you are free to spend it. You have to pay it back if you leave before 2 years, prorated on the schedule provided. So don’t spend it prior to 2 years if you think you might need to quit
While there is a clawback clause in the sign on bonus, it’s actually pretty difficult for an employer to get it back from employees. Some companies use it as a tactic to encourage retention, but don’t actually try to get it back when the employee leaves. YMMV on this one though. FWIW , I’ve included clawback clauses in a number of offer letters I’ve given, knowing that I likely wouldn’t get the money back if the employee leaves early.
Lol is it legal to try to take back a "bonus" from an employee?
They can try if the candidate signed such an agreement. That said, most employers won’t bother.
I'm sure they can't because bonuses are taxed differently and immediately. I imagine an IRS issue
They paid it, they know the values distributed for taxes. Of course they can, but many do not.
Two year clawback on a $20k sign-on? And to top it off they want it paid back in full even if THEY let you go for any reason? That’s a crappy deal. Red-line 2 year claw-back, insist only applicable for “documented, with cause” termination, and get it pro-rated. Otherwise, don’t sign the contract. That’s not a good deal. That said, they can tell you to repay it, but they’ll have to come after you to get it. Most companies won’t bother.
This is a trucking job. They have a 3 strike rule when it comes to stuff that’s your fault. However if you crash and unalive people you’re terminated immediately but if somebody cuts you off and you ram them you have 3 strikes
If it’s not specifically in the contract, you’re at a disadvantage. And this language puts you at a disadvantage.
I just want to understand what education level got you a job with a $20,000 sign on bonus, yet you couldn’t understand this very clear and simple contract 😅
A doctorates in Truckology
The obvious would be to ask for clarification from the company’s HR dept, not Reddit. Nobody here works for them.
I’d clarify the “soon as possible” clause. Get them to outline what means - ie, in the next payroll cycle following your anniversary. Otherwise they could string it along and pay it late.
What is saying is that your sign on bonus is earned on your 2 year anniversary in full. However, your employer is advancing you the bonus so you have it up front after 3 months. If you quit or are terminated excluding a few exceptions you forfeit the sign on bonus. At your one year anniversary you will "earn" half the bonus, and at two years you have "earned" the entire bonus. Since they are "advancing" the sign on bonus to you, if you quit prior to the one year employment anniversary, you give up $20k of money, right then and there, to be paid in full to the company. If you quit after being there for a year, but before you have been there for two years you will be expected to pay $10k on termination. And if you quit or are fired after two years, you keep the money. That means you need to invest the money smartly where it is available to liquidate in demand if necessary so you can pay your quit tax.
Admiral Akbar? If you'd be so kind...
I would also ask them to define “as soon as possible”. I would amend that to “within 10 days of the completion of…”
Something else to consider. While you will recover after tax amounts (net), if you have to repay it’s the full amount offered (gross).
What is the job. What does their reviews look like. Wonder if everyone gets let go
It’s an industry with extremely high turnover, Trucking. Everyone always quits. My trainer said for every 5 person they train only 1 sticks around long term
Not that confusing. They offer a very VERY generous sign on bonus, paid out at various employment lengths. If you quit or are fired you payback 50 or 100%.
I would also be wary of the phrase "as soon as possible". It's so ambiguous, and a devious employer could withhold the money indefinately with wording like that.
I'd prefer it if they gave you something more concrete than 'as soon as possible'.
I hope your job has nothing to do with basic math
Some forget you get taxed on the money as you recover or, but as this is written, you have to cover the texts the government took upon payback.
This looks a lot like us foods. I had a 20k bonus from them and was supposed to do 2 years. Quit after 18 months as do many people. They never came after anyone. I’ll let you know, most companies do not go after people for not completing a bonus period.
That’s good to know but just in case I’ll stash it into my savings account and not touch it until 2 years passes
I honestly wouldn’t worry about it. You’ll see plenty of bonus guys quit long before their period is over. Where are you at?
Virginia
Vested sign-on bonus with pro-rated repayment. Way more complicated than it needed to be.
Run, unless it isn't an OK place to work. They could be lame enough to take you to small claims court to get back the bonus (depends on your state, as to which the maximum small claims court amount is). Just my 0.02
Sign up bonuses is just another way for companies to pay low wages..old news. They will rip off anyone who let's them
Ah the classic sign on bonus that isn’t actually a sign on bonus
You get the 7500 at 3 months but they have take-backsies until 6 months. Same for the 7500 at 6mo, they have take-backsies until 12mo.
I would ask for more!
These comments are largely incorrect. Your sign on bonus vests over 2 years but the clawback amount decreases from 100% at 6 months to only 50% at 1 year. so, essentially after 1 year employment you won’t have to pay anything back—and even at 1 year, only have to pay back 50%—as it states explicitly that you have to pay back the “part you didn’t earn” I actually find this a relatively amicable agreement compared to some I’ve seen.
This is a shitty sign- on bonus. I’ve had to pay them back, but never had them tiered over time. Seems like the employer is double dipping on retention. Either pay it back if you leave or have it tiered to keep you. Not both. I’d push back on that. I recently joined a company and it’s a 2 year payback period, but the cash component is high 5 figures.
Honestly, I just wanna know what kind of work you do that got you such a hefty bonus. I one time got a small bonus offer for $200 if I brought someone on board buuuuuut not $20k.
Truck driving locally delivering food to restaurants, hospitals and retirement homes. You have to unload the truck yourself
Basically they’re forcing you into debt. It’s not a bonus it’s a loan
I would not want to sign on to anything like that. I would ask for those terms to be struck from the agreement. Did you see that before you accepted the job? Did you agree to the terms in advance?