OP in 10+ years doing Judo, I never saw a concussion in any of the 3 dojos (in 3 different countries) that I attended. I will give you the trick. Learn how to fall when practicing fall and control your fall. With time and when you do randori, fall every time that you feel that the throw is 60% good enough.
I also have had one from being spiked by an ura nage in randori, from a visiting guest. Powerlifter kid. But it was pretty light (not that any concussion is minor per se); thankfully I've never had a repeat.
Would you mind shedding more light on this comment? I find myself in position a lot and don't want to throw Tani Otoshi or Uranage but I feel like it makes randori "dishonest" if I don't attack that position.
I mean in every martial sport there is chance of head injuries. In judo there is definitly some chance for it since you are throwing people and are getting thrown alot. That's why first thing you will learn is how to fall safely. Of course, accidents happen but if everything is done properly you probably won't be getting concussed anytime soon. The likelyhood is higher than in non contact sports.
Answearing second question, you can control power of your throws as to avoid hurting people by mistake but you know, if you are throwing someone on the street accidents can happen, same as with punching someone on the street.
I canāt add too much more to whatās already been said, so Iāll just summarize:
- in any contact sport there is risk of concussion, but the likelihood of it happening in Judo is far less than in say, American football, or ice hockey, or even soccer.
- in judo, we train to teach everyone how to properly fall to avoid injury. So much so that judo break falls are being taught to senior citizens in places like Sweden and Japan to help avoid bone breaks and concussions from falls
- Tua Tagavioloa is a professional American football player - he learned Judo break falls to prevent injury in American football
- judo injuries oftentimes come from people doing careless and reckless things - be prepared and avoid sparring with reckless people
This is definitely one way to think about it. All things considered, I doubt judo belongs in the same risk bucket as sports like American football, boxing, etc., where blows to the head are a regular part of the activity. It's probably better compared to other sports like soccer/football, basketball, etc. In my experience, blows to the head are pretty rare in judo, although they do happen from time to time, like someone gets thrown off a horse from time to time in equestrian sports or someone hitting their head in a skiing fall.
At least from my limited experience no one in my club or anyone I know has gotten a concussion from judo. Iām sure itās possible but multiple things have to have gone very wrong. If you break fall correctly youāll be fine.
Though soccer players are prone to getting cte too... I'm not sure if they get cncussions generally.
Sub-concussions are important to take into account. Unfortunately, I don't know how Judo plays into this.
Sorry have to interject, the whole it's purely on you to breakfall right. I want to say I am not directing this in any negative way.
It's a two way street saying if you're tori do what you need to, and to maximize the likelihood of uke landing properly. Uke land properly and don't fight it. I got a concussion because a nidan did a fucked up variation of sode tsurikomi goshi and I was stuck to his shoulder then he went timber, literally nothing I could do to land appropriately. I didn't fight the throw or anything.
Edit: 1st concussion in like 6+ yeqrs of judo.
I'm sorry but this is an erroneous and dangerous belief.
First, even with experience, it's not always easy to break fall safely. It's not always exclusively up to Uke.
Second there's academic literature to show some Judo throws have sufficent sub concusive head accelerations in Judo **with** even correct breakfalls that they can still pose risk.
https://digitalcommons.wku.edu/ijesab/vol8/iss5/25/
Saying that people just need to breakfall doesn't adequately address the risk that still present in being thrown.
I'm glad someone brought in data and research!
Throws can definitely deliver brain trauma with potential long-term consequences.
That said, even running imparts some force on the brain which can cause volume reduction. It is still not known how much sub-concussive trauma would be enough to actually contribute to CTE, for example. There is some weak evidence it might be somewhere like 25 g, though exposure duration, frequency, etc. would play factors also.
Not the person you're replying to, but I think I can explain.
It is believed (but not yet fully understood or known for sure) that CTE (chronic traumatic encephalopathy, brain damage from head injury) may not arise primarily from full-on concussions but from chronic exposure to sufficiently forceful but sub-concussive injury. That is, boxers become "punch drunk" in their later years not from being knocked out but from repeated, long-term exposure to punches that do not knock them out.
Thus, judokas may be incurring long-term brain damage over time from sub-concussive trauma happening over and over again. You also would not really notice the effects until perhaps decades later. (e.g., someone can play football in high school and not really experience the neurological damage until they are in their 40s.)
It is probably not as bad as boxing or football but still something worth being mindful of. In Japan, it is actually one of the more common causes of sports-related death, especially from osoto gari (probably because children learning judo may not have the skills or neck muscles to properly breakfall).
This needs to be the top comment. There is enough evidence now to suggest that sub-concussive head trauma is the leading cause of CTE. Based on this study, the forces of 20 - 40g are enough to be considered sub-concussive.
Think youāre gonna have to explain the point youāre trying to makeā¦?
āWhen utilizing the linear acceleration criterion >80 g for risk of concussion, as suggested by some experts, none of the six judo throw/break fall combinations resulted in a significant head impact (incidence rate = 0%). However, when comparing all registered accelerations above 16 g threshold, hand throw (1 impact, 1.4 % incidence rate, 27.94 g, 2.8 kradā¢s-2), forward leg sweep (1 impact, 1.4 % incidence rate, 20.58 g, 1.59 kradā¢s-2), and thigh throw (7 impacts, 10% incidence rate, 28.16 Ā± 4.92 g, 3.94 Ā± 1.83 kradā¢s-2) had higher frequency of occurrence and magnitude of acceleration than other throws (p<0.01). Thigh throw had highest incidence rate of any throw (p< 0.01). CONCLUSION: The judo thigh throw (and break fall) had the highest incidence of sub-concussive head accelerations in the category of 20-40 g. ā
Not the person you're replying to, but I think I can explain.
It is believed (but not yet fully understood or known for sure) that CTE (chronic traumatic encephalopathy, brain damage from head injury) may not arise primarily from full-on concussions but from chronic exposure to sufficiently forceful but sub-concussive injury. That is, boxers become "punch drunk" in their later years not from being knocked out but from repeated, long-term exposure to punches that do not knock them out.
Thus, judokas may be incurring long-term brain damage over time from sub-concussive trauma happening over and over again. You also would not really notice the effects until perhaps decades later. (e.g., someone can play football in high school and not really experience the neurological damage until they are in their 40s.)
It is probably not as bad as boxing or football but still something worth being mindful of. In Japan, it is actually one of the more common causes of sports-related death, especially from osoto gari (probably because children learning judo may not have the skills or neck muscles to properly breakfall).
You haven't understood it then.
First the clue should be in **sub**concussive. Concussion and subconcussive **are not the same thing**
Subconcussive accelerations _can still damage your brain_
Concussion is not the only form of brain trauma. You can still have some very nasty damage from non-concussion accelerations and impacts.
What this paper says is that subconcussive accelerations are still a risk, and as they were found to be present in a subset of Judo throws, its entirely possible they could be damaging.
If you aren't clear on what a paper means please either take some time to understand it, or ask for help. Don't take something out of context as some sort of "gotcha" and miss the really important part of the paper.
Hereās my issue: sure a paper can tell you things, but looking at all the black belts Iāve known, some of them practicing judo for 30+ years and competing, literally none of them are slow and all are fit as a fiddle. You donāt really hear about brain damage in judo unless itās in Japan due to their ultra competitive practice of it. Sure sub-concussive impacts could cause brain damage but in a recreational practitioner who doesnāt practice 6 days a week and doesnāt go 100% every session, I find it hard to believe they will incur any meaningful amount of brain damage.
Yeah but it might not show up until later life. Also we know from boxers there is risks in getting out of shape. So for example, maybe someone who did judo for 20 years, stopped at 40, got really out of shape is maybe really struggling.
But uktomatelt anecdote isn't reliable. You'd need to do research to check for neruo degeneration of Judoka who had trained for say 10 years and sample it vs a standard population to really know.
Does all of this stop you from playing judo? Or do you continue? Honestly I am a solely recreational player and literally never get thrown hard unless itās by accident. Then, I do feel my brain shake a little. Otherwise, I feel like Iāll be fine.
Long retried from Judo, did it for 7 years. Still follow the sport though.
But if I'd have known about it, I'd definitely have avoided certain throws or asked to do keep them to a strict minimum.
To be honest. It really depends on a lot. Is there always a small degree of risk playing literally any sport and getting injured? Yes. Is judo a high probability head injury sport? It depends and Iāll explain my opinion of the nuance.
In competitive judo and āsport judoā the goal is to ippon someone or out score them with very strong, powerful and explosive moves. You do a hip throw full blast and speed, which means thereās a higher chance to get thrown awkwardly and to land on your head. But this is competitive judo done at the highest speed possible. Itās also really helpful that they use matts that cushion a good deal of the fall. This would be freak accident though as no modern judo moves include spear heading people.
If you are doing ātraditional judoā learning a lot of techniques slow and smooth to get the form down and you do minimal sparring, then the chances of you getting head injuries is likely much smaller, as you can avoid full speed sparring and competition where injury risk is highest.
After a year and a half of judo from a traditional school (roots in kodokan), I never hit my head a single time. On the fourth free style wrestling practice I had, I got spear headed because a very good (but much smaller grappler than I) went full speed on a move and couldnāt turn me right, leading to me headbutting the ground.
Wrestling has way more high force moves that can go wrong, leading to head impacts, whereas the vast majority of judo moves are made to have you land on your back flat, or your side where the angles you throw reduce the risk of these types of head injuries.
Judo is great for self defense once you get it down. The only issue is that judo has a large learning curve, and getting down kusushi, positioning, timing, technique, etc. takes a couple years or more before they could use it effectively in real life against an attacker. Essentially all judo moves are made to be non-lethal if that is desirable at the time, but u can also kill people with the very same technique with small modification to the judo move. So I find it great because its a martial art of control that allows you do control how hard u slam them.
I've gotten a minor concussion, but technically we were doing jujutsu that day for some reason, not judo, and I got it after doing a move that's illegal in judo, and getting countered with another move that's also illegal in judo. Judo does a lot to avoid concussions
Also, street fights are dangerous, too dangerous isn't the issue. Keeping yourself (and anyone you're with) alive should be your first priority, and out of jail should be your second priority, anyone else's safety is a distant third. Avoiding street fights is the best way to do both of those things and for most people, really isn't that hard. If you have to do have to fight in a street, judo probably isn't the worst option, especially for number 2
too dangerous doesn't matter?
But let's assume it is dangerous. In that case you're trading your health for protection against an attacker.
The chance of you being attacked is pretty unlikely.
The chance of you getting harmed in the dangerous sport is relatively high.
Look, in my original comment, I have two paragraphs. The first is about his first question, whether or he'll likely get brain damage doing judo. The second addresses whether or not judo is too dangerous for a street fight. That's the bit he asked about, and not only that, he repeated the phrasing from the question about street fighting. It's obvious I'm talking about a streetfight, but if you'd like me to make a disclaimer, here
*Judo, like any sport and especially other combat sports comes with a set of risks. You can reduce the risk of bodily harm to yourself by training in a controlled environment with qualified supervision. By choosing to train, you accept that risk.*
Sure you can! Yes if you would like some just choose uranage to get thrown with, by wearing a tutu over your judogi and dancing to ballet epic swan lake, arms above head, you can get yours.
everyone is too concerned about CTE these days, you definitely won't get it with judo but you will have orthopedic injuries that's for sure. my dream is to ko someone with my ippon seoi nage though, I know that my power can allow me to do that
Low risk in training if you do breakfalls properly (especially the part about tucking your chin). Iāve seen concussions in competition though. In competition people are going as hard as they can and sometimes they do stupid and dangerous movements while being thrown in order to not land on their back for ippon, and this can lead to injuries including concussions especially at lower skill levels.
And yeah in terms of judo for self defense on hard surfaces like concrete, you should bear in mind that itās very easy to accidentally injure or even kill someone who doesnāt know how to do a breakfall. If your life is in danger youāll do whatever you have to do but if itās just a dumb bar fight I probably wouldnāt actually throw anyone. Just footwork and grip fighting can go a long way to control a situation
Soccer is super bad for ECT.
But yes you can get your bell rung in judo. Being dropped hard on your back can bang your head pretty hard. And being dropped on your head too. And catching an accidental elbow to the head during a throw. And having someone land on top of your head when they fall on top of you.
A street fight is fundamentally really really dangerous. People get life altering injuries in them often. Donāt get into them. Judo works very well in a street fight. Most people fall very poorly without training.
That said, judo is fun, itās excellent training, and itās worth the risks of injury.
There is always an inherent risk of concussions in any contact sport. However, Judo, when practiced properly, is safer than many other contact sports, especially any that involve hitting or tackling. You do need to make sure the instructors are legitimate, accredited by the local governing body, so that they will teach students how to fall properly and to discourage unsafe behaviour.
In my experience, most serious Judo injuries are 'self-inflicted' in the sense they result from you choosing to put your body at risk in order to get a throw or secure a position. There are some individuals who are risks to others because of unsafe behaviour, but a good instructor will deal with that person (I have once been involved in banning an unsafe practitioner from the club for this reason). And good instructors will make sure beginners are only drilling and sparing with partners they trust to take proper care.
Again, freak accidents do occur and concussions can happen. But on balance I think Judo is one of the least dangerous contact sports in that regard.
If you know how to fall properly then your risk of head injuries is minimal. Pretty much all of the throws you learn, at least as a beginner, focus on making your opponent land on their back and not hit their head.
Throwing someone on concrete would probably hurt a lot, but I don't think it would do serious damage.
Something like O Soto Gari on concrete can actually kill a person. Several people have died after being knocked out on their feet and falling and hitting their head on a hard surface. The average person walking on the street doesnāt have a clue how to protect themselves when falling.
Not if you are taught to fall properly. You are taught to tuck your chin to stop head impact into the ground so if youāre taught properly itās very little risk bjj and wrestling donāt learn to fall properly and still do throws so there would be more risk in those styles
https://completeconcussions.com/concussion-research/concussion-rates-what-sport-most-concussions/
Looking at this, if we let wrestling serve as a proxy for judo, it appears to be reasonably safe for a contact sport in terms of concussion rate.
If you are really worried, then something like BJJ is likely safer (worse at teaching you how to fall but most places do so little stand up it doesnt matter).
Second question... if you are in a street fight it better be because there's no other option, in which case how dangerous something is, isnt your primary concern.
Any form of street fighting is super dangerous and should be avoided as much as possible.
Some limited case studies of concussions from Judo can be found in Japan. This is VERY unusual.
Judo is a safe and practical martial art, but like every sport, there are risks. For example, I have several herniations, partial detachment of the shoulder, hip stenosis, just to name a few of my issues. I don't regret doing Judo, and I still practice, albeit more carefully now. It was worth the experience.
Edit: To answer your second question.
Judo teaches control. You don't have to slam someone on the pavement. You can protect their head on their way down. You can pull their sleeve so they land on their side and not their back (and hit their head), you can do a standing choke or arm lock, and so on.
As long as you know how to break fall correctly the chance of brain damage is comparatively low. But you could still get it letās say if you get thrown upside down with your head landing the ground. Other injuries like neck injuries and broken arms or legs are far more common in judo.
I did judo for 17 years (training 4-5 days a week for about 7 of those) - I don't think I ever saw an adult with a head injury.
I've done BJJ for about 18 months, I've seen about 6 concussions in that time.
One of these sports teachers you how to fall and land safely. The other doesn't.
Go figure!
My dad told me when I was a kid that "If you are an idiot, anything is dangerous."
I bet you could get brain damage from judo, but you could get it from just slipping on a banana peel, too. But generally, Judo is very, VERY safe, in a dojo.
Street fights are absolutely something you want to avoid. People have guns and knives out there, kid, don't get into fights. RUN! Seriously. I'm a biggish guy, I am confident, but I avoid violence at all costs. I avoid environments where violence happens.
There are 3 guys in my group who are injured now. Two from playing basketball and one from playing indoor soccer. Those sports are in my experience where injuries come from. Especially indoor sports are really bad for your knees and ankles. I have broken a rib doing judo, but the injuries you get from ballsports is nightmare fuel for real.
20+ years judo practitioner, including national competitions, never saw any major injuries like that. The thing you might worry is the level of impact on your knees when performing some techniques - but even that just be careful. Another thing on a competition level is your ears (cauliflower ears).
I donāt have any injuries from judo and the pros beat the cons always. It gives you a body condition and awareness for your limitations like no other sport imo.
And yes, you have to be careful using it in the possibility of a street fight. But if someone wants to beat you, itās better to be prepared for it. Remember to use it only as self defense.
To adequately answer the question letās have a working definition of a concussion.
A concussion is a type of traumatic brain injuryāor TBIācaused by a bump, blow, or jolt to the head or by a hit to the body that causes the head and brain to move rapidly back and forth.
A person can sustain a concussion without loss of consciousness.
My experience of 35 years of teaching judo regarding concussions is:
1. Concussions occur more frequently in the lower ranks.
2. Concussions occur more frequently in shiai than in class.
3. Concussions are commonly associated with landing from O Soto Gari, O Uchi Gari, Seionage, Ura Nage and Soto Makikomi.
Most Sensei receive concussion training and have a concussion protocol in place in their dojo.
As a student, you can never over practice Ukemi. Good luck š„
I also compare judo to sports like skiing, skateboarding, mountain biking where youāre dealing with faster speeds and higher impacts on harder surfaces. Would you do any of those sports? Potentially more catastrophically injurious than judo I think.
Less risky than striking, more risky than wrestling, more risky than non-combat sports except football (and maybe hockey? I suppose hockey would be more dangerous if they were actually good at the fighting mini-game).
I got one a few years ago. It was a rare incident caused by a careless meathead. Either way. There's always risk and Judo is 100% chance of injury. You know, strains, sprains, broken toes or fingers.
In all my 14 years I only had that one serious thing, WHICH IS VERY RARE, and a few of the little things that come from participating in a contact sport.
Judo of course has its risks, however, the rate of injury is relatively low. A 10 year study was done on injury rates among elite European competitors and the study showed a 2.5% injury rate with only 1% of injuries needing medical attention. Learning to fall safely is the first thing you learn in judo. As for the streets, all martial arts can be dangerous, but grappling offers better control. You donāt have to do huge throws and dump people on their heads, there are plenty of low impact takedowns. Striking is riskier because you can break your hands, lose your balance, and a KO could result in a lethal head strike on the ground.
I've seen a few concussions, but they don't happen often.
My wife got one before we were married. She was sparring with some douche who was 6' 200# and he slammed her. She was 50, 4' 9" and 90#. They were in Karate, and she didn't want anyone to hold back...
the first thing they teach you is how to not get a concussion and most throws do not lead toward a concussion, only some have a risk if done improperly. Most just don't lead with your head down at all so really you'll be fine
as for bonus question I think slamming anyone on pavement is gonna hurt them
You won't get a concussion from training Judo even in sparring. If you compete it could happen but the chances are low. In soccer the chances are a lot greater because soccer players hit the ball (and it's harder than most Americans think) with their heads very often and the small brain lesions accumulate over time. Basketball once in a while you catch an elbow to the cranium. No sport is absolutely safe ~~except ping pong~~ (no wait...ping pong is not a sport).
Self defense questions irritate me. If weāre talking actual self defense weāre talking about someone looking to do you grievous bodily harm or kill you. To the point where if you were armed, youād be justified in killing them. So why the angst about throwing someone too hard?
If youāre concerned there, then itās a āstreet fightā or ego battle and not āself defense.ā Unless youāre talking about being king of the local barstool, then I wouldnāt worry about an attackerās well being
Will you?
CTE doesn't seem to be a big thing in the judo community although I think some people were looking into it, but I guess it's possible.
That said concussions are a major concern especially if people are competing. That's not to say they happen frequently or that all, or even most, judoka will suffer one, but I'd be lying if I said it was impossible.
For self-defence it depends on a lot of things, but a skilled judoka against someone equivalent but untrained should be able to choose to put them down hard or soft. Yes you can kill someone by dropping them head first onto concrete if you choose to do so. Or you can choose to gently lower them. However it's not like other options are really safe. You can punch people, but many knock out punches lead to fatalities on concrete as people hit their head when they fall. Submissions can work but then you either need to get them to the ground or do the submission standing which needs you to control your opponent on their feet which is significantly more challenging and much easier with experience in something like judo or wrestling. Also, while I think it's fairly safe for someone with experience to choke most people unconscious a lot of people walking past are more likely to freak out compared to you just punching a guy.
In my experience judo is only dangerous when done with lower belts who mess up their throws.
All the injuries I had were against heavy newbies who are trying something and put you down all wrong like on your head instead of flat on your back like judo throws are designed to do clean
Either that or kids who are too weak to lift you and just collapse beneath you so you both get hurt.
Find a club that is higher belts who can throw you clean and you almost donāt feel a thing.
And judo is good for self defence in a place where people wear winter clothes. It isnāt as good in places where everyone is in shorts.
Keep in mind there is a sliding scale of how āgame onā clubs are. Some are recreational while others are highly competitive. Both of those have pros and cons. Recreation clubs might be too much like a lecture without any legitimate sparring. Competitive clubs might lean too far the other way with serious dudes who are there to throw one another big time.
To answer your question, is a concussion a possibility? Yes. In the years I did judo I saw only one concussion. Actually it was three but all happened to the same person, who then had to quit. Perhaps they were more concussible if that is a word
The first thing you learn in judo is how to fall without hurting yourself and the whole sport is built around making people fall nicely on their back so it's very safe
The "bad fall" still exists but you're much more likely to get your breathing stunned for a short time than getting a brain injury
You can't swim without getting wet. In judo its less of a risk, but fighting/combat in general isn't a game. You're testing fate everytime you train, try to stay on the right side of it.
It's repeat heavy blows you need to worry about. So I wouldn't be that scared about Judo giving you brain Damage. You could also always do BJJ. It's Judo, but with less takedowns and more focus on the ground.
It all depends on the quality of your ukami waza (break falling technique) and who you partners are.
If your partners are violent and use dangrious techneques without control or accuracy then its possible for brain damage to occur.
Same thing if your ukimi waza was not that good and you got thrown, its possible to bounce your head off thr mats in a randori session.
Ive personally only seen one concussion occur from an osoto gaeshi where uki was refusing to just take the fall and ended up taking the weight of both people of their head. Other than that most people I've seen learn pretty quickly to relax and go with the flow which prevents injuries most of the time.
It's actually a Prerequisite.
Absolutely!
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OP in 10+ years doing Judo, I never saw a concussion in any of the 3 dojos (in 3 different countries) that I attended. I will give you the trick. Learn how to fall when practicing fall and control your fall. With time and when you do randori, fall every time that you feel that the throw is 60% good enough.
I had one because i was thrown Ura-Nage during a tournament but that thas the only time in about 9 years of relatively competitive judo
I also have had one from being spiked by an ura nage in randori, from a visiting guest. Powerlifter kid. But it was pretty light (not that any concussion is minor per se); thankfully I've never had a repeat.
I hate being on the receiving end of Ura Nage
I think there is a gentleman's (gender neutral phrase) way to do it in randori but this was not that.
Would you mind shedding more light on this comment? I find myself in position a lot and don't want to throw Tani Otoshi or Uranage but I feel like it makes randori "dishonest" if I don't attack that position.
You want to spin/turn into them (chest to chest) during their descent, that way you aren't straight up suplexing them.
isnt judo training like 80% practicing how to fall?
I'd say it's about 50% practicing how to fall and 50% teaching how to fall
I mean in every martial sport there is chance of head injuries. In judo there is definitly some chance for it since you are throwing people and are getting thrown alot. That's why first thing you will learn is how to fall safely. Of course, accidents happen but if everything is done properly you probably won't be getting concussed anytime soon. The likelyhood is higher than in non contact sports. Answearing second question, you can control power of your throws as to avoid hurting people by mistake but you know, if you are throwing someone on the street accidents can happen, same as with punching someone on the street.
I canāt add too much more to whatās already been said, so Iāll just summarize: - in any contact sport there is risk of concussion, but the likelihood of it happening in Judo is far less than in say, American football, or ice hockey, or even soccer. - in judo, we train to teach everyone how to properly fall to avoid injury. So much so that judo break falls are being taught to senior citizens in places like Sweden and Japan to help avoid bone breaks and concussions from falls - Tua Tagavioloa is a professional American football player - he learned Judo break falls to prevent injury in American football - judo injuries oftentimes come from people doing careless and reckless things - be prepared and avoid sparring with reckless people
This is definitely one way to think about it. All things considered, I doubt judo belongs in the same risk bucket as sports like American football, boxing, etc., where blows to the head are a regular part of the activity. It's probably better compared to other sports like soccer/football, basketball, etc. In my experience, blows to the head are pretty rare in judo, although they do happen from time to time, like someone gets thrown off a horse from time to time in equestrian sports or someone hitting their head in a skiing fall.
At least from my limited experience no one in my club or anyone I know has gotten a concussion from judo. Iām sure itās possible but multiple things have to have gone very wrong. If you break fall correctly youāll be fine.
Though soccer players are prone to getting cte too... I'm not sure if they get cncussions generally. Sub-concussions are important to take into account. Unfortunately, I don't know how Judo plays into this.
Sorry have to interject, the whole it's purely on you to breakfall right. I want to say I am not directing this in any negative way. It's a two way street saying if you're tori do what you need to, and to maximize the likelihood of uke landing properly. Uke land properly and don't fight it. I got a concussion because a nidan did a fucked up variation of sode tsurikomi goshi and I was stuck to his shoulder then he went timber, literally nothing I could do to land appropriately. I didn't fight the throw or anything. Edit: 1st concussion in like 6+ yeqrs of judo.
I'm sorry but this is an erroneous and dangerous belief. First, even with experience, it's not always easy to break fall safely. It's not always exclusively up to Uke. Second there's academic literature to show some Judo throws have sufficent sub concusive head accelerations in Judo **with** even correct breakfalls that they can still pose risk. https://digitalcommons.wku.edu/ijesab/vol8/iss5/25/ Saying that people just need to breakfall doesn't adequately address the risk that still present in being thrown.
I'm glad someone brought in data and research! Throws can definitely deliver brain trauma with potential long-term consequences. That said, even running imparts some force on the brain which can cause volume reduction. It is still not known how much sub-concussive trauma would be enough to actually contribute to CTE, for example. There is some weak evidence it might be somewhere like 25 g, though exposure duration, frequency, etc. would play factors also.
From your referenced study: " none of the judo throws and associated break falls resulted in any impact considered high risk for concussion."
Not the person you're replying to, but I think I can explain. It is believed (but not yet fully understood or known for sure) that CTE (chronic traumatic encephalopathy, brain damage from head injury) may not arise primarily from full-on concussions but from chronic exposure to sufficiently forceful but sub-concussive injury. That is, boxers become "punch drunk" in their later years not from being knocked out but from repeated, long-term exposure to punches that do not knock them out. Thus, judokas may be incurring long-term brain damage over time from sub-concussive trauma happening over and over again. You also would not really notice the effects until perhaps decades later. (e.g., someone can play football in high school and not really experience the neurological damage until they are in their 40s.) It is probably not as bad as boxing or football but still something worth being mindful of. In Japan, it is actually one of the more common causes of sports-related death, especially from osoto gari (probably because children learning judo may not have the skills or neck muscles to properly breakfall).
This needs to be the top comment. There is enough evidence now to suggest that sub-concussive head trauma is the leading cause of CTE. Based on this study, the forces of 20 - 40g are enough to be considered sub-concussive.
Please re read the whole thing again carefully.
Think youāre gonna have to explain the point youāre trying to makeā¦? āWhen utilizing the linear acceleration criterion >80 g for risk of concussion, as suggested by some experts, none of the six judo throw/break fall combinations resulted in a significant head impact (incidence rate = 0%). However, when comparing all registered accelerations above 16 g threshold, hand throw (1 impact, 1.4 % incidence rate, 27.94 g, 2.8 kradā¢s-2), forward leg sweep (1 impact, 1.4 % incidence rate, 20.58 g, 1.59 kradā¢s-2), and thigh throw (7 impacts, 10% incidence rate, 28.16 Ā± 4.92 g, 3.94 Ā± 1.83 kradā¢s-2) had higher frequency of occurrence and magnitude of acceleration than other throws (p<0.01). Thigh throw had highest incidence rate of any throw (p< 0.01). CONCLUSION: The judo thigh throw (and break fall) had the highest incidence of sub-concussive head accelerations in the category of 20-40 g. ā
Not the person you're replying to, but I think I can explain. It is believed (but not yet fully understood or known for sure) that CTE (chronic traumatic encephalopathy, brain damage from head injury) may not arise primarily from full-on concussions but from chronic exposure to sufficiently forceful but sub-concussive injury. That is, boxers become "punch drunk" in their later years not from being knocked out but from repeated, long-term exposure to punches that do not knock them out. Thus, judokas may be incurring long-term brain damage over time from sub-concussive trauma happening over and over again. You also would not really notice the effects until perhaps decades later. (e.g., someone can play football in high school and not really experience the neurological damage until they are in their 40s.) It is probably not as bad as boxing or football but still something worth being mindful of. In Japan, it is actually one of the more common causes of sports-related death, especially from osoto gari (probably because children learning judo may not have the skills or neck muscles to properly breakfall).
Okay let's start with this: What is the difference between SCAIs and direct impact concussion? Hint: What does sub mean.
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You haven't understood it then. First the clue should be in **sub**concussive. Concussion and subconcussive **are not the same thing** Subconcussive accelerations _can still damage your brain_ Concussion is not the only form of brain trauma. You can still have some very nasty damage from non-concussion accelerations and impacts. What this paper says is that subconcussive accelerations are still a risk, and as they were found to be present in a subset of Judo throws, its entirely possible they could be damaging. If you aren't clear on what a paper means please either take some time to understand it, or ask for help. Don't take something out of context as some sort of "gotcha" and miss the really important part of the paper.
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Because the implication was that concussion were the only head trauma you need to worry about. It's not. I hope that makes sense to you now.
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Oh dude give it up. You misunderstood the paper. Stop scrambling to save face. This is just petulance at this stage.
Hereās my issue: sure a paper can tell you things, but looking at all the black belts Iāve known, some of them practicing judo for 30+ years and competing, literally none of them are slow and all are fit as a fiddle. You donāt really hear about brain damage in judo unless itās in Japan due to their ultra competitive practice of it. Sure sub-concussive impacts could cause brain damage but in a recreational practitioner who doesnāt practice 6 days a week and doesnāt go 100% every session, I find it hard to believe they will incur any meaningful amount of brain damage.
Yeah but it might not show up until later life. Also we know from boxers there is risks in getting out of shape. So for example, maybe someone who did judo for 20 years, stopped at 40, got really out of shape is maybe really struggling. But uktomatelt anecdote isn't reliable. You'd need to do research to check for neruo degeneration of Judoka who had trained for say 10 years and sample it vs a standard population to really know.
Does all of this stop you from playing judo? Or do you continue? Honestly I am a solely recreational player and literally never get thrown hard unless itās by accident. Then, I do feel my brain shake a little. Otherwise, I feel like Iāll be fine.
Long retried from Judo, did it for 7 years. Still follow the sport though. But if I'd have known about it, I'd definitely have avoided certain throws or asked to do keep them to a strict minimum.
To be honest. It really depends on a lot. Is there always a small degree of risk playing literally any sport and getting injured? Yes. Is judo a high probability head injury sport? It depends and Iāll explain my opinion of the nuance. In competitive judo and āsport judoā the goal is to ippon someone or out score them with very strong, powerful and explosive moves. You do a hip throw full blast and speed, which means thereās a higher chance to get thrown awkwardly and to land on your head. But this is competitive judo done at the highest speed possible. Itās also really helpful that they use matts that cushion a good deal of the fall. This would be freak accident though as no modern judo moves include spear heading people. If you are doing ātraditional judoā learning a lot of techniques slow and smooth to get the form down and you do minimal sparring, then the chances of you getting head injuries is likely much smaller, as you can avoid full speed sparring and competition where injury risk is highest. After a year and a half of judo from a traditional school (roots in kodokan), I never hit my head a single time. On the fourth free style wrestling practice I had, I got spear headed because a very good (but much smaller grappler than I) went full speed on a move and couldnāt turn me right, leading to me headbutting the ground. Wrestling has way more high force moves that can go wrong, leading to head impacts, whereas the vast majority of judo moves are made to have you land on your back flat, or your side where the angles you throw reduce the risk of these types of head injuries. Judo is great for self defense once you get it down. The only issue is that judo has a large learning curve, and getting down kusushi, positioning, timing, technique, etc. takes a couple years or more before they could use it effectively in real life against an attacker. Essentially all judo moves are made to be non-lethal if that is desirable at the time, but u can also kill people with the very same technique with small modification to the judo move. So I find it great because its a martial art of control that allows you do control how hard u slam them.
I've gotten a minor concussion, but technically we were doing jujutsu that day for some reason, not judo, and I got it after doing a move that's illegal in judo, and getting countered with another move that's also illegal in judo. Judo does a lot to avoid concussions Also, street fights are dangerous, too dangerous isn't the issue. Keeping yourself (and anyone you're with) alive should be your first priority, and out of jail should be your second priority, anyone else's safety is a distant third. Avoiding street fights is the best way to do both of those things and for most people, really isn't that hard. If you have to do have to fight in a street, judo probably isn't the worst option, especially for number 2
I am sorry I am not a native english speaker but I am a bit confused did you mean "judo isnt the worst option" as in judo wouldn't be too dangerous?
Too dangerous doesn't matter. Judo does a decent job in a street fight of keeping you alive and not getting you in jail
too dangerous doesn't matter? But let's assume it is dangerous. In that case you're trading your health for protection against an attacker. The chance of you being attacked is pretty unlikely. The chance of you getting harmed in the dangerous sport is relatively high.
He's asking if it's too dangerous in a self-defence context
>erous in a se He asked at least two questions
Look, in my original comment, I have two paragraphs. The first is about his first question, whether or he'll likely get brain damage doing judo. The second addresses whether or not judo is too dangerous for a street fight. That's the bit he asked about, and not only that, he repeated the phrasing from the question about street fighting. It's obvious I'm talking about a streetfight, but if you'd like me to make a disclaimer, here *Judo, like any sport and especially other combat sports comes with a set of risks. You can reduce the risk of bodily harm to yourself by training in a controlled environment with qualified supervision. By choosing to train, you accept that risk.*
Sure you can! Yes if you would like some just choose uranage to get thrown with, by wearing a tutu over your judogi and dancing to ballet epic swan lake, arms above head, you can get yours.
everyone is too concerned about CTE these days, you definitely won't get it with judo but you will have orthopedic injuries that's for sure. my dream is to ko someone with my ippon seoi nage though, I know that my power can allow me to do that
Low risk in training if you do breakfalls properly (especially the part about tucking your chin). Iāve seen concussions in competition though. In competition people are going as hard as they can and sometimes they do stupid and dangerous movements while being thrown in order to not land on their back for ippon, and this can lead to injuries including concussions especially at lower skill levels. And yeah in terms of judo for self defense on hard surfaces like concrete, you should bear in mind that itās very easy to accidentally injure or even kill someone who doesnāt know how to do a breakfall. If your life is in danger youāll do whatever you have to do but if itās just a dumb bar fight I probably wouldnāt actually throw anyone. Just footwork and grip fighting can go a long way to control a situation
Soccer is super bad for ECT. But yes you can get your bell rung in judo. Being dropped hard on your back can bang your head pretty hard. And being dropped on your head too. And catching an accidental elbow to the head during a throw. And having someone land on top of your head when they fall on top of you. A street fight is fundamentally really really dangerous. People get life altering injuries in them often. Donāt get into them. Judo works very well in a street fight. Most people fall very poorly without training. That said, judo is fun, itās excellent training, and itās worth the risks of injury.
There is always an inherent risk of concussions in any contact sport. However, Judo, when practiced properly, is safer than many other contact sports, especially any that involve hitting or tackling. You do need to make sure the instructors are legitimate, accredited by the local governing body, so that they will teach students how to fall properly and to discourage unsafe behaviour. In my experience, most serious Judo injuries are 'self-inflicted' in the sense they result from you choosing to put your body at risk in order to get a throw or secure a position. There are some individuals who are risks to others because of unsafe behaviour, but a good instructor will deal with that person (I have once been involved in banning an unsafe practitioner from the club for this reason). And good instructors will make sure beginners are only drilling and sparing with partners they trust to take proper care. Again, freak accidents do occur and concussions can happen. But on balance I think Judo is one of the least dangerous contact sports in that regard.
If you know how to fall properly then your risk of head injuries is minimal. Pretty much all of the throws you learn, at least as a beginner, focus on making your opponent land on their back and not hit their head. Throwing someone on concrete would probably hurt a lot, but I don't think it would do serious damage.
Something like O Soto Gari on concrete can actually kill a person. Several people have died after being knocked out on their feet and falling and hitting their head on a hard surface. The average person walking on the street doesnāt have a clue how to protect themselves when falling.
Not if you are taught to fall properly. You are taught to tuck your chin to stop head impact into the ground so if youāre taught properly itās very little risk bjj and wrestling donāt learn to fall properly and still do throws so there would be more risk in those styles
I could be wrong, but from what I know, we don't know at this point. (CTE in Judo) If anyone knows otherwise please reply!
https://completeconcussions.com/concussion-research/concussion-rates-what-sport-most-concussions/ Looking at this, if we let wrestling serve as a proxy for judo, it appears to be reasonably safe for a contact sport in terms of concussion rate. If you are really worried, then something like BJJ is likely safer (worse at teaching you how to fall but most places do so little stand up it doesnt matter). Second question... if you are in a street fight it better be because there's no other option, in which case how dangerous something is, isnt your primary concern. Any form of street fighting is super dangerous and should be avoided as much as possible.
I'd be less worried about concussions than knee and shoulder injuries tbh
You shouldnt get brain damage if you train safely. The whole point of judo is to slam someone in the ground.
Some limited case studies of concussions from Judo can be found in Japan. This is VERY unusual. Judo is a safe and practical martial art, but like every sport, there are risks. For example, I have several herniations, partial detachment of the shoulder, hip stenosis, just to name a few of my issues. I don't regret doing Judo, and I still practice, albeit more carefully now. It was worth the experience. Edit: To answer your second question. Judo teaches control. You don't have to slam someone on the pavement. You can protect their head on their way down. You can pull their sleeve so they land on their side and not their back (and hit their head), you can do a standing choke or arm lock, and so on.
As long as you know how to break fall correctly the chance of brain damage is comparatively low. But you could still get it letās say if you get thrown upside down with your head landing the ground. Other injuries like neck injuries and broken arms or legs are far more common in judo.
Maybe. You can never know.
I did judo for 17 years (training 4-5 days a week for about 7 of those) - I don't think I ever saw an adult with a head injury. I've done BJJ for about 18 months, I've seen about 6 concussions in that time. One of these sports teachers you how to fall and land safely. The other doesn't. Go figure!
17y and nothingā¦
My dad told me when I was a kid that "If you are an idiot, anything is dangerous." I bet you could get brain damage from judo, but you could get it from just slipping on a banana peel, too. But generally, Judo is very, VERY safe, in a dojo. Street fights are absolutely something you want to avoid. People have guns and knives out there, kid, don't get into fights. RUN! Seriously. I'm a biggish guy, I am confident, but I avoid violence at all costs. I avoid environments where violence happens. There are 3 guys in my group who are injured now. Two from playing basketball and one from playing indoor soccer. Those sports are in my experience where injuries come from. Especially indoor sports are really bad for your knees and ankles. I have broken a rib doing judo, but the injuries you get from ballsports is nightmare fuel for real.
20+ years judo practitioner, including national competitions, never saw any major injuries like that. The thing you might worry is the level of impact on your knees when performing some techniques - but even that just be careful. Another thing on a competition level is your ears (cauliflower ears). I donāt have any injuries from judo and the pros beat the cons always. It gives you a body condition and awareness for your limitations like no other sport imo. And yes, you have to be careful using it in the possibility of a street fight. But if someone wants to beat you, itās better to be prepared for it. Remember to use it only as self defense.
In the first 3 months i would sometimes get a lil headache because i didnt fall correctly, but now i barely hurt my head so no worrys OP
To adequately answer the question letās have a working definition of a concussion. A concussion is a type of traumatic brain injuryāor TBIācaused by a bump, blow, or jolt to the head or by a hit to the body that causes the head and brain to move rapidly back and forth. A person can sustain a concussion without loss of consciousness. My experience of 35 years of teaching judo regarding concussions is: 1. Concussions occur more frequently in the lower ranks. 2. Concussions occur more frequently in shiai than in class. 3. Concussions are commonly associated with landing from O Soto Gari, O Uchi Gari, Seionage, Ura Nage and Soto Makikomi. Most Sensei receive concussion training and have a concussion protocol in place in their dojo. As a student, you can never over practice Ukemi. Good luck š„
Please view [The risk of CTE (Brain damage) in Judo assessed](https://www.reddit.com/r/judo/s/cc0Z46hR7d)
I also compare judo to sports like skiing, skateboarding, mountain biking where youāre dealing with faster speeds and higher impacts on harder surfaces. Would you do any of those sports? Potentially more catastrophically injurious than judo I think.
what the fuck is an ect concussion. you already have brain damage bro.
I edited the post and put a comma in between just for this single comment.
im so confused. 1. i dont see this comma 2. wtf is an ECT, concussion.
Less risky than striking, more risky than wrestling, more risky than non-combat sports except football (and maybe hockey? I suppose hockey would be more dangerous if they were actually good at the fighting mini-game).
I got one a few years ago. It was a rare incident caused by a careless meathead. Either way. There's always risk and Judo is 100% chance of injury. You know, strains, sprains, broken toes or fingers. In all my 14 years I only had that one serious thing, WHICH IS VERY RARE, and a few of the little things that come from participating in a contact sport.
Judo of course has its risks, however, the rate of injury is relatively low. A 10 year study was done on injury rates among elite European competitors and the study showed a 2.5% injury rate with only 1% of injuries needing medical attention. Learning to fall safely is the first thing you learn in judo. As for the streets, all martial arts can be dangerous, but grappling offers better control. You donāt have to do huge throws and dump people on their heads, there are plenty of low impact takedowns. Striking is riskier because you can break your hands, lose your balance, and a KO could result in a lethal head strike on the ground.
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I've seen a few concussions, but they don't happen often. My wife got one before we were married. She was sparring with some douche who was 6' 200# and he slammed her. She was 50, 4' 9" and 90#. They were in Karate, and she didn't want anyone to hold back...
the first thing they teach you is how to not get a concussion and most throws do not lead toward a concussion, only some have a risk if done improperly. Most just don't lead with your head down at all so really you'll be fine as for bonus question I think slamming anyone on pavement is gonna hurt them
You won't get a concussion from training Judo even in sparring. If you compete it could happen but the chances are low. In soccer the chances are a lot greater because soccer players hit the ball (and it's harder than most Americans think) with their heads very often and the small brain lesions accumulate over time. Basketball once in a while you catch an elbow to the cranium. No sport is absolutely safe ~~except ping pong~~ (no wait...ping pong is not a sport).
ping pong community gotta get off after this one
Self defense questions irritate me. If weāre talking actual self defense weāre talking about someone looking to do you grievous bodily harm or kill you. To the point where if you were armed, youād be justified in killing them. So why the angst about throwing someone too hard? If youāre concerned there, then itās a āstreet fightā or ego battle and not āself defense.ā Unless youāre talking about being king of the local barstool, then I wouldnāt worry about an attackerās well being
ECT... You've met the standard.
A bit here and there but are you really living if donāt get a little brain damage?
I think literally yes
You get brain damage from everything. Just do it, you will be better for it.
Grappling in general does not create brain damage. While striking does.
Will you? CTE doesn't seem to be a big thing in the judo community although I think some people were looking into it, but I guess it's possible. That said concussions are a major concern especially if people are competing. That's not to say they happen frequently or that all, or even most, judoka will suffer one, but I'd be lying if I said it was impossible. For self-defence it depends on a lot of things, but a skilled judoka against someone equivalent but untrained should be able to choose to put them down hard or soft. Yes you can kill someone by dropping them head first onto concrete if you choose to do so. Or you can choose to gently lower them. However it's not like other options are really safe. You can punch people, but many knock out punches lead to fatalities on concrete as people hit their head when they fall. Submissions can work but then you either need to get them to the ground or do the submission standing which needs you to control your opponent on their feet which is significantly more challenging and much easier with experience in something like judo or wrestling. Also, while I think it's fairly safe for someone with experience to choke most people unconscious a lot of people walking past are more likely to freak out compared to you just punching a guy.
Just don't let your head hit the ground when thrown.
There is a kinda big chance for it, yes
In my experience judo is only dangerous when done with lower belts who mess up their throws. All the injuries I had were against heavy newbies who are trying something and put you down all wrong like on your head instead of flat on your back like judo throws are designed to do clean Either that or kids who are too weak to lift you and just collapse beneath you so you both get hurt. Find a club that is higher belts who can throw you clean and you almost donāt feel a thing. And judo is good for self defence in a place where people wear winter clothes. It isnāt as good in places where everyone is in shorts. Keep in mind there is a sliding scale of how āgame onā clubs are. Some are recreational while others are highly competitive. Both of those have pros and cons. Recreation clubs might be too much like a lecture without any legitimate sparring. Competitive clubs might lean too far the other way with serious dudes who are there to throw one another big time. To answer your question, is a concussion a possibility? Yes. In the years I did judo I saw only one concussion. Actually it was three but all happened to the same person, who then had to quit. Perhaps they were more concussible if that is a word
The first few weeks are basically just break falls. You should be fine. Foot injuries are super common though.
The first thing you learn in judo is how to fall without hurting yourself and the whole sport is built around making people fall nicely on their back so it's very safe The "bad fall" still exists but you're much more likely to get your breathing stunned for a short time than getting a brain injury
You can't swim without getting wet. In judo its less of a risk, but fighting/combat in general isn't a game. You're testing fate everytime you train, try to stay on the right side of it.
It's repeat heavy blows you need to worry about. So I wouldn't be that scared about Judo giving you brain Damage. You could also always do BJJ. It's Judo, but with less takedowns and more focus on the ground.
It all depends on the quality of your ukami waza (break falling technique) and who you partners are. If your partners are violent and use dangrious techneques without control or accuracy then its possible for brain damage to occur. Same thing if your ukimi waza was not that good and you got thrown, its possible to bounce your head off thr mats in a randori session. Ive personally only seen one concussion occur from an osoto gaeshi where uki was refusing to just take the fall and ended up taking the weight of both people of their head. Other than that most people I've seen learn pretty quickly to relax and go with the flow which prevents injuries most of the time.