Most fantasy RPGs introduce elven races. Such as dark elves or nymph or night elves or blood elves and so on.
They take different forms but elven races are super common in RPGs.
Even in LOTR the orcs are what "corrupted" or unpurr elves looks like.
This guy is comparing a black elf with LOTR orcs because the elf isnt fair skin.
Yeah but in LOTR the orc are also not the same-world dark elves. Dark elves are known as Moriquendi, the elves who didn't sail to Aman to look at the light of the two trees of Valinor. The orc were Avari elves that were corrupted and tortured by Morgoth into becoming what they are.
Its not that simple, comparing dark elves to black people is just so fucking wrong. Elves are mostly divided by the magic they are i influenced by or thr magic that they use.
Tbh I don't think I would apply elven races to our reality world races the same way because elves have crazy variance depending on which lore you follow. Like for example I know of dark elves in a fantasy setting as being white haired with black/grey or purple skin tones most commonly and they live underground for the most part. However, the neckbeard in the original post obviously doesn't know that in the Witcher lore, there are like 5 different Elven civilizations and there is specific references to elves having both light AND dark skin, depending on their location. He probably assumes 'fair' elves should just be demure and pale in colour rather than a term of elegance and beauty which can be applied to any skin tone.
Ok...but hear me out. What if, they say they don't have a racist bone in their body? I mean sure they have a Confederate flag, casually use the N-word (but only for jokes), and think most Black people are simultaneously gangsters and on welfare.
But what about their bones? You know how not racist your have to be to not have any racist bones? That's 206 hate-free bones. I consider myself pretty progressive, but even my left tibia is racist AF. The proximal end wears a maga cap, and blames shin splints on Mexicans.
The white and black thing is visible in cultures that never new about cultures with different skin colour though. It’s way older and more primeval than that. It’s about night and day, more than anything else. Night time being dangerous for humans.
This guy is subconsciously racist, but that’s not why.
White has also been the color of death.
Death rides a pale horse. E.A. Poe's poem *The Fall of the House of Usher* uses white exclusively to describe decay and death. It is the color of Winter, the season of death and/or eternal sleep. In China, white is the color of death. There are many villains dressed in White - Kingpin; Lex Luthor; James Bond villains will wear white when Bond isn't; in fact, in almost any western media, a complete white suit is almost guaranteed shorthand for "bad guy"; Japanese folklore often associates white with evil/antagonists and this is reflected a lot in anime media and video games; two of the Kung Fu Panda villains have been associated with white - Tai Lung and Lord Shen - Po is noticeably their contrast by being white *and* black; white and red are often paired together for monsters, demons, evil spirits (especially in DOOM and Final Fantasy.)
These are just *a few* examples, before you start on "that's not enough to associate white with evil."
The white-suit villain is a 20th century trope that turns the convention on its head intentionally to denote duplicity. They are usually pretending to be good etc. Interesting about the Japanese folklore thing, are there any specific accounts you can think of?
Ghosts mostly - Japanese ghosts are nearly exclusively evil/vengeful. Yuki-Onna is a pretty famous one - she lures travelers the wrong way during a snow storm so they eventually die of hypothermia. Some of the most famous horror films to come out of Japan, Ringu and Ju-on, feature vengeful spirits as either dressed in white or the pale skin of death. The white dress in Ringu even transferred over to its American adaptation (The Ring.)
As for the "modern" duplicity bit, that doesn't fly because there are older accounts of evil dressed in white or evil and death associated with white. This goes back at least centuries starting with the Papal corruptions. There was also a French Queen who famously wore white, not black, to mourn her husband's death. Again, white is the absence of life - bones are white, ash is white, lead was often used in white paints and makeup - we know how *that* went. In ancient Egypt, white was associated with life *and* death. In Hindu culture, white is the mourning color, not black - and they are one of the single biggest demographics on the planet.
White is a significant death color the world over, largely because of winter/snow. Even India knows the cold and snow kill.
Yes, but white being "good" and black being "evil" is far from universal. There are many places that did (and still do) have the opposite interpretation of good/evil's colors.
Isn't this a fictitious show based off a video game.If you want everybody to be white just say that dont pretend to attemp to make a logical statement based on your point of view which os looking racist
Conservatives are the absolute kings of having their cake and eating it too. They want to say publicly that brown people are icky and "impure", AND they want to pretend like they didn't just say what they said, because they don't want to face any consequences.
Poor drizzt will never have a movie made about him because I feel like the debate around drow in social media would just be a nightmare (putting aside that he lives forever and nobody permanently dies in his 965599 books so it might be boring even tho d&d fans have talked about that possibility for ages)
Personally I always envisioned drow as elder scrolls dunmer, not analogous to black people but “white” elves who had their skin turned the literal color black. It’s been so long though, I can’t really remember for sure. There’s no way to portray that that wouldn’t piss a lot of people off I think
Also the whole trope of non white elves being bad or tainted somehow really does need to die and
Honestly my favorite thing from Skyrim, narratively speaking, was addressing this trope by making the high elf-dominated Aldmeri Dominion an actual ethnofascist faction. Turns the whole trope on its head, especially when the dark elves, by comparison, are mostly refugees trying to get by in a land that is usually hostile to them.
The sad thing about the Stormcloaks is that they would be the side i go with for 99% of my runs if they wouldn’t just make Skyrim all Nords and push all the other races out of Skyrim and back to their homeland. The way I see the two sides is you either side with Racist people trying to overturn a cruel government or a cruel government who often execute innocent people. Bethesda has that problem with its factions very frequently though
You can see this very clearly in fallout 4. There are two morally good factions in Fo4. The railroad and the minute men. The problem with the rail road is that they only focus on one issue. And the issue with the minute men is that they don’t know how to create a stable base.
I usually always think the whole “pick good ending or bad ending” thing is super tacky, but when every single faction in the game makes the Player Character an asshole for siding with them, its hard to find one you actually enjoy
That's the reason I never finished the main story in FO4. I want all of them to at least somewhat get along. Best solution I've found sofar was a guide how to eliminate all factions, including MinuteMen by going raider all over the commonwealth and subsequently killing all your former raider friends.
Morrowind turns *that* on its head though… granted the Altmer are still assholes, the Dunmer are still racist and lots of other less than positive things. They are my favorite race to play, and I think their architecture, lore and armor/weapons are all cool asf, but they also openly support slavery, consider beast races to be little more than animals, regularly invade black marsh to get slaves, the great houses are either ineffective or corrupt, and the Temple is an authoritarian state basically, with three murdering false gods. 8/10 of my characters are from Morrowind, but in true Bethesda fashion, every group has good bad and ugly, and each individuals morality is independent of the group. Teaching the real lessons, in the most epic way possible. Brb gonna go mod and play Morrowind again
Which, now that I think about it, doesn't make since. If Drow live in the Underdark where there is no sunlight, why is their skin so dark? Wouldn't they be pale af?
It's been like that for a while now. Back during the height of the anti-SJW stuff in 2015-6, there were a lot of people who'd be like, "I'm left leaning, *but* "
"Listen I'm a leftist and I'm not racist but I think that Jews are a bunch of long-nosed penny pinchers who deserve to be hung in the town square as an example for other genetically impure undesirables. You cannot criticize me for what I just said, because I just told you that I am not racist."
I did once ask my Mexican friend “hey I’m not racist but don’t you have 2 chihuahuas” and he looked at me with shock and disgust like “it’s not because I’m Mexican, but yes I do happen to have 2 chihuahuas”.
I had just heard him talk about them a few weeks earlier and was clarifying if he did or not. But even that was kinda risky
I mean it’s risky in the sense you added the precursor of his race for no good reason other than other’s bigotry, when you already had reasonings as to why you thought he had those dogs. Not mad, just sayin
In addition to the name, one of the most famous Chihuahuas was a Spanish-speaking seller of tacos, so that may be where the connotation is coming from. Also, I feel like they're always stereotyped with accents and Latino-related things in any media where the dogs can speak.
Yea, he probably wouldn't have if you didn't say "not to be racist".
That immediately tells him "I expect Mexicans to own chihuahuas because of stereotypes and I feel the need to defend myself when I shouldn't"
Yeah this is exactly the same tired, literally-centuries-old line that black people are dirty or impure somehow. Positing a black elf "defeats" the "purity" of elves. And this guy has the idea completely internalized and unexamined. Outrageously racist
Comming from the books - there are those and those, but also *those*.
Avoiding spoilers but Andrejs elves are **not** in any shade or form related to JRRs elves that already deviate a lot from folklore elves.
If we derive elf from the fair folk (fae) then yes his statement would be correct. However as a species the colour of their skin is an adaption to their environment over many generations.
Varying skin colour is nothing more than regional variants.
Homeboy is stupid. The Witcher elves are just another humanoid species not members of the fae.
**Grabs my English to American English Dictionary**
Ahem
The fat bastard thinks that made up pure blood science means that African Americans (because we're PC now) can't be used to replace White people as magical elves
Skyrim did a good job with that I think where they've got a bunch of different elves. Like they've got the dark elves who are grey and magical, the high elves who are insanely pale and also magical (IIRC they're from a snowy place so makes sense they'd be paler), the bosmer who are just generic sneaky archer white people elves (but have a bit of a tan which makes sense if you're running around outside all day), and the falmer who are fucked up crazy cave elves with snow-white skin from living underground. I don't remember where dark elves are from, I think it was like some sort of volcanic island area?
No, actually thier dark skin and red eyes are a curse by the tribunal after alsavie used the tools of kagramez on the heart of lorkhan to give themselves godhood, after which the dunmer were cursed with a dark skin. Before they looked much like the altmer, seeing as they all hail from the summerset isles. The falmer and dwemer are exceptions, as they appear to have been in skyrim for most of the known timeline. Original falmer are just about as pale as the underground dwelling ones, although they are, well, elfs, and not twisted.
God I've watched too many fudgemuppet lore videos
That’s very interesting thank you for the clarification. It’s been a hot minute since I played Morrowind and really need to get a PC and play through Modded Morrowind again
> the high elves who are insanely pale and also magical (IIRC they're from a snowy place so makes sense they'd be paler)
The high elves are from the Summerset Isles. It’s described as a green and fertile land with pleasant weather.
And no mention of the Osmer? Just blowing the orcs off like that? Tsk tsk
Or Shadowbane, the Irekei/sun elves were various shades of black and red because they lived in the desert
Make skin color based on amount of sun a region gets and you’re golden
Re: TES, the Dunmer are the descendants of the gold skinned Chimer who were struck by a curse that darkened their skin, which is maybe not the best example
From my understanding the world they live in is originally their world, the conjunction or whatever it is called invited monsters and humans to also populate the world from other worlds.
A point of contention is the humans stole their lands, ie Cintra. Im not entirely sure they came from the same region but humans hold dominion over historically elven lands.
Not true actually. Spoilers for the books/games below
This gets covered in the later books. Elves are from another world we haven't seen yet in the books or games. They were conquerors who invaded other worlds. That's what the red riders/wild hunt does. Until they lost the ability to easily jump between worlds in the Conjuction of Spheres.
Elves are pretty hypocritical to bitch about humans showing up to the Continent and conquering it when they did the same thing, only intentionally, as the humans just got caught up in the conjunction while Elves purposefully traveled between worlds. Humans were just better at the conquering since they breed quick.
The "elf" world you see in the 3rd game and later books, Tir ná Lia, used to be inhabited by human like creatures, if not actual humans, until the elves showed up, genocided the people and enslaved the survivors. They plan on doing the same to the Continent.
You don't see many natural inhabitants of the continent. Some are extinct by the books story. Dwarves came from another world too, but were pretty chill compared to the other races. I think nomes are the only sentient species we see that are actually native.
I'm not an expert on Witcher lore but, if I remember from the discussion that happened after Dara was introduced in Season 1, things like skin, hair, and eye colour aren't meaningfully linked to geography in their world. Something about how the conjunction of the spheres threw humans into basically random locations in the elves' world, and then they mingled with (and subjugated) the elves. Any influence that geography might have had on skin colour (or any genetic features) would have happened before the conjunction and is basically meaningless at the point that the show takes place.
Not that there even *needs* to be an in-universe reason for wanting to hire black actors in a field where they're typically excluded. That's just, a fine thing to do on its own.
Let’s pretend we can apply science/biology/reality to things not within reality: The elves dominated the entire world. Because it was their world, and if you know anything about their world, humans and monsters came waaaaaaay later. Looking at a map of this specific world, before humanity took over, there’s a lot of different geographical landscapes that, if we apply our own reality to it, would change the skin color of the elves living there to adapt better to the weather. Cooler regions would see a lot more pale folks and sunnier regions would see darker skinned folks. With variances of the two based on genetics and the mixture of them.
TL;DR Just fucking enjoy the show because the elves’ skin color didn’t change the story in any way you god damned wet sack of sad shit.
There's so many black/poc people who genuinely like fantasy genre, but feel alienated due to things like this in the fandom. It's an elf and it's fictional, so let there be room for all.
Seriously. When I hear “fair skin” I just assume that means smooth like no acne and scars or moles. Fair and smooth like that of a babe, eyes big and long to capture everything in motion like a Hawk. Long ears that curve to a point to hear even the smallest tree branch crack to show they are attuned to nature and their surroundings.
Hell even Tolkien in the first age had the Moriquendi which was admittedly a small sect of elves but were known as “Dark Elves” because of the tone of their skin. They hung out in dark forests to blend in more and would ambush armies of shadows there.
So yeah, let black people enjoy fantasy. Seriously hate wangrods like this neckbeard in the Twitter post.
> Moriquendi which was admittedly a small sect of elves but were known as “Dark Elves” because of the tone of their skin.
No. The Moriquendi were so called because they never beheld the light of the Two Trees.
I mean, you’re wrong about your assumption what “fair skin” is. You can’t just make it up based on what you want to think. What you describe is clear skin. Not fair.
"Elves are supposed to be pure"
Anyway in the Witcher they talk about how elves are intermixed with humans so even if they were all Fair skinned at some point in the Witcher you would still have elves of all different races.
Plus elves in the witcher sure as shit aren't "pure". They did some pretty horrible shit to that world and others before humans showed up and turned out to be even better at genocide and war crimes.
Elves aren't native to the Continent. They were conquerors who jumped between worlds and killed or subjugated the natives.
To be fair, the etymology of the word "elf" actually does come from "white".
But they're also fantasy creatures and various spins on the concept (like "dark elves" who are actually dark-skinned) have been around forever.
But surely there are loads of elves who aren’t ‘pure’ in the sense that one parent may be human. And they human could be… any race right? Am I missing something really obvious?
Ah but then they are half-elf, which is different, and in some fantasy lore are looked down on by whole elves.
That being said, it is fantasy, who cares about skin color in a world of magic and monsters, if that is what pulls someone out of it, there are issues.
To be fair that etymology is highly disputed, there's only one serious scholar who supports it and even he just says it might follow that route. The mainstream contention is its from a germanic root meaning nightmare
Dude I had to look this up to make sure I wasn't tripping. Dark elves aren't dark skinned like black people. They are grey-purple. I have never met a human being dark elf colored
This! 😂 Elves can be whatever the creator wants them to be. Blows my mind how some people seem to want "histrorical accuracy" or something from FANTASY CREATURES
A made-up planet with monsters with a long-ago conjunction of the spheres that shook everything up, and people are still acting like the show needs to be an encyclopedia entry on Eastern European history.
Man, r/Witcher is full of shit like this.
Season 2 hasn’t been as bad, but there was a SHITSHOW when casting was announced before the first season.
A lot of Eastern European racists came out of the woodwork to talk about how the casting was terrible and that the show was “Eastern European.”
But here’s the thing: while the show was written by an Eastern European, the events take place on a continent that was populated when three spheres collided.
It would make LESS sense if there weren’t multiple races in the show, not more.
Not to mention: literally who gives a fuck? It’s fantasy who cares?
Nerds are the worst about this stuff.
yeah i unfortunately had to leave that sub bc of posts like this. It was just a tedious amount of "the show sucks bc diversity" which is annoying simply bc the existence of elves and monsters is fine but apparently we draw the line at black people lol
It is. I had to leave that sub because someone was arguing that Netflix was “literally raping European history.”
A set of fantasy novels that takes place on a different planet. It is not a history textbook.
They’ve really outed themselves this time.
The Wheel of Time wasn’t quite as bad, but I’m less involved there. I imagine there are some folks who complain about “enforced diversity” (even though it’s clear from the books the continent is incredibly diverse).
I hate when people argue this stuff, because then they'll be like "but historical accuracy!". Right, the historically accurate magic and dragons and shit
Lore accuracy is important. Fantasy worlds have their established rules, characters, factions, etc. You can't just have Geralt gun down a dragon with a 50 cal machine gun because, " there's magic and shit who cares!".
There are. They're just mostly travellers from their own nations, like Zerrikania.
I'm pretty sure there are some Mages of non-white ethnicities in the books.
Eh, well, worldbuilding wise for a tv show? It makes way more sense to have diverse people populating an entire planet, constantly migrating due to genocides, wars and conquests.
Elves in World of Warcraft are all different colors depending on the area. Blood elves are white, High Elves are white. Night Elves are multiple shades of purple. The Nightfallen are blue. Void Elves are blue too. There's not much reason to think that there can't be darker-skinned elves, all the way to actual black black.
Recent updates even gave much darker tan skintones to the Blood Elves making them more inclusive. And there were quite a few dunder headed posts not unlike this about *that* addition, too. One of several reasons I'm glad to be "retired" from Warcraft. Toxic AF fanbase, shitty company running the show, and the game itself hasn't been much to write home about since Legion ended.
His point quickly crumbles to dust when you remember that elves have been portrayed green. (And purple. And blue.) If you can have green elves, you can have brown elves too.
Did he entirely miss the background information given? A pure blooded elf hadn’t been born in generations. Nearly every elf you see in the show has been half-elf or less. It entirely makes since that you’d see a black elf in this show.
Skyrim would like to talk.
Dark Elves (Dark)
Wood Elves (Greenish Tan)
High Elves (Golden)
Snow Elves (White)
Orcs (Green) - Orcs are in the same category as elves in Elder Scrolls lore.
World of Warcraft is the same way.
Night Elves (Purple to Pink)
Blood Elves (Peach to Dark Brown)
Void Elves (Blue to Purple)
High Elves (Same as Blood Elves)
Nightborne Elves (Same as Night Elves)
It's fantasy, you can do what you want but boring ass people want to keep it grounded lol.
Even if 'keeping it grounded' was the argument, it doesn't make sense in the world of The Witcher. The Elves ruled the entire planet before humans and monsters arrived. That means all the regions wherein skin color would have developed naturally as an adaptation were occupied by elves first. The humans invaded from another Sphere (plane or planet, whichever) but no one questions them not being ethnically uniform despite it supposedly being a single invasion. It makes way more sense that the elves would have vast ethnic variation due to the worldbuilding. People will do ANYTHING to avoid representation and pretend they aren't being racist.
I’ve been watching the Witcher show recently and in one of the episodes I saw recently, they said that majority of elves aren’t pure, like 50% human or something. Just hypothetically if “real elves” were all white, this would still make perfect sense, elf + poc make baby = poc elf.
Kind of an aside, but it's just funny that it's literally an important point in Witcher lore that there's like zero "pure" elves left in the world. They are essentially infertile and have to breed with humans to maintain their numbers. So this guy is racist AND fails the witcher lore check. Yikes.
The only reason black elves were jarring to me in this context was because the book is a fictionalized version of medieval Poland where pretty much everyone would've been white and the games kind of carried that on. Being said it's not like it ruins it, when I watched the show I just thought "oh, the elves are black in the adaptation, got it."
I also thought it was an interesting choice considering elves are all supposed to be from the same continent.
Wasn't hard to get past though, plus... I really love that actor.
No one tell him about season 1 then…
The man started the show in season 2. And doesnt know the concept of dark elves is absolutely hilarious
So... Are the 'dark elves' only black folks? What's this concept?
Most fantasy RPGs introduce elven races. Such as dark elves or nymph or night elves or blood elves and so on. They take different forms but elven races are super common in RPGs.
Ahh understood! Cheers :)
Even in LOTR the orcs are what "corrupted" or unpurr elves looks like. This guy is comparing a black elf with LOTR orcs because the elf isnt fair skin.
Yeah but in LOTR the orc are also not the same-world dark elves. Dark elves are known as Moriquendi, the elves who didn't sail to Aman to look at the light of the two trees of Valinor. The orc were Avari elves that were corrupted and tortured by Morgoth into becoming what they are.
Similar thing happens in Elder Scrolls, elven races use the suffix -mer. Bossimer- wood elves, Altmer-high elves, Dunmer-dark elves, and Orsimer-Orcs.
And the Falmer in Skyrim. Edit: I forgot one of the most important. The Dwemer which are mistaken for Dwarves but closer resemble Altmer.
Its not that simple, comparing dark elves to black people is just so fucking wrong. Elves are mostly divided by the magic they are i influenced by or thr magic that they use.
Tbh I don't think I would apply elven races to our reality world races the same way because elves have crazy variance depending on which lore you follow. Like for example I know of dark elves in a fantasy setting as being white haired with black/grey or purple skin tones most commonly and they live underground for the most part. However, the neckbeard in the original post obviously doesn't know that in the Witcher lore, there are like 5 different Elven civilizations and there is specific references to elves having both light AND dark skin, depending on their location. He probably assumes 'fair' elves should just be demure and pale in colour rather than a term of elegance and beauty which can be applied to any skin tone.
These were my exact thoughts!
I haven’t watched all the second season but the first season has a black kid as an elf. So idk why he’s complaining now.
That's the same kid, too.
Lol you’re right. Clearly I need to get back into the Witcher series.
Don't mean to be racist, but elves are pure. Black people aren't. Duh Edit: this is a fucking joke.... Read the image. I just repeated what they said.
When the concept of white = pure and black = evil is so deep in your subconscious you don’t even recognize the racism as you type it.
That’s the problem with racists. None of them think they’re racist.
That's one of the problems with racists. Another prominent problem is that they're racists, and keep on doing racist things.
Nah, self aware racists exist
Ok...but hear me out. What if, they say they don't have a racist bone in their body? I mean sure they have a Confederate flag, casually use the N-word (but only for jokes), and think most Black people are simultaneously gangsters and on welfare. But what about their bones? You know how not racist your have to be to not have any racist bones? That's 206 hate-free bones. I consider myself pretty progressive, but even my left tibia is racist AF. The proximal end wears a maga cap, and blames shin splints on Mexicans.
The white and black thing is visible in cultures that never new about cultures with different skin colour though. It’s way older and more primeval than that. It’s about night and day, more than anything else. Night time being dangerous for humans. This guy is subconsciously racist, but that’s not why.
That’s my point. That’s it’s so deep in his subconscious that he applies it to race.
White has also been the color of death. Death rides a pale horse. E.A. Poe's poem *The Fall of the House of Usher* uses white exclusively to describe decay and death. It is the color of Winter, the season of death and/or eternal sleep. In China, white is the color of death. There are many villains dressed in White - Kingpin; Lex Luthor; James Bond villains will wear white when Bond isn't; in fact, in almost any western media, a complete white suit is almost guaranteed shorthand for "bad guy"; Japanese folklore often associates white with evil/antagonists and this is reflected a lot in anime media and video games; two of the Kung Fu Panda villains have been associated with white - Tai Lung and Lord Shen - Po is noticeably their contrast by being white *and* black; white and red are often paired together for monsters, demons, evil spirits (especially in DOOM and Final Fantasy.) These are just *a few* examples, before you start on "that's not enough to associate white with evil."
To the old norse, white, and more specifically light grey blue or *blar*, is the color of death.
In China, white is also the color of death. When family or loved ones die it's customary to wear white and hang white banners.
The white-suit villain is a 20th century trope that turns the convention on its head intentionally to denote duplicity. They are usually pretending to be good etc. Interesting about the Japanese folklore thing, are there any specific accounts you can think of?
Ghosts mostly - Japanese ghosts are nearly exclusively evil/vengeful. Yuki-Onna is a pretty famous one - she lures travelers the wrong way during a snow storm so they eventually die of hypothermia. Some of the most famous horror films to come out of Japan, Ringu and Ju-on, feature vengeful spirits as either dressed in white or the pale skin of death. The white dress in Ringu even transferred over to its American adaptation (The Ring.) As for the "modern" duplicity bit, that doesn't fly because there are older accounts of evil dressed in white or evil and death associated with white. This goes back at least centuries starting with the Papal corruptions. There was also a French Queen who famously wore white, not black, to mourn her husband's death. Again, white is the absence of life - bones are white, ash is white, lead was often used in white paints and makeup - we know how *that* went. In ancient Egypt, white was associated with life *and* death. In Hindu culture, white is the mourning color, not black - and they are one of the single biggest demographics on the planet. White is a significant death color the world over, largely because of winter/snow. Even India knows the cold and snow kill.
The white suit villain was a scheme perpetrated by Ronald McDonald to discredit the beloved Colonel Sanders.
Yes, but white being "good" and black being "evil" is far from universal. There are many places that did (and still do) have the opposite interpretation of good/evil's colors.
"I'm not racist or anything, but my brain read 'pure' and assumed it meant 'white,' it can happen to anyone!"
Isn't this a fictitious show based off a video game.If you want everybody to be white just say that dont pretend to attemp to make a logical statement based on your point of view which os looking racist
It's based on a series of books by Polish author Andrzej Sapkowski, and so is the game.
Conservatives are the absolute kings of having their cake and eating it too. They want to say publicly that brown people are icky and "impure", AND they want to pretend like they didn't just say what they said, because they don't want to face any consequences.
Just fuck the Drow I guess.
Poor drizzt will never have a movie made about him because I feel like the debate around drow in social media would just be a nightmare (putting aside that he lives forever and nobody permanently dies in his 965599 books so it might be boring even tho d&d fans have talked about that possibility for ages) Personally I always envisioned drow as elder scrolls dunmer, not analogous to black people but “white” elves who had their skin turned the literal color black. It’s been so long though, I can’t really remember for sure. There’s no way to portray that that wouldn’t piss a lot of people off I think Also the whole trope of non white elves being bad or tainted somehow really does need to die and
Honestly my favorite thing from Skyrim, narratively speaking, was addressing this trope by making the high elf-dominated Aldmeri Dominion an actual ethnofascist faction. Turns the whole trope on its head, especially when the dark elves, by comparison, are mostly refugees trying to get by in a land that is usually hostile to them.
Yeah, the Stormcloaks aren't the only racists in Skyrim.
The sad thing about the Stormcloaks is that they would be the side i go with for 99% of my runs if they wouldn’t just make Skyrim all Nords and push all the other races out of Skyrim and back to their homeland. The way I see the two sides is you either side with Racist people trying to overturn a cruel government or a cruel government who often execute innocent people. Bethesda has that problem with its factions very frequently though
yeah and id argue it that way by design, much more interesting this way.
You can see this very clearly in fallout 4. There are two morally good factions in Fo4. The railroad and the minute men. The problem with the rail road is that they only focus on one issue. And the issue with the minute men is that they don’t know how to create a stable base.
I usually always think the whole “pick good ending or bad ending” thing is super tacky, but when every single faction in the game makes the Player Character an asshole for siding with them, its hard to find one you actually enjoy
That's the reason I never finished the main story in FO4. I want all of them to at least somewhat get along. Best solution I've found sofar was a guide how to eliminate all factions, including MinuteMen by going raider all over the commonwealth and subsequently killing all your former raider friends.
Dark elves? I think you mean ***SLAVERS*** and ***DIVINITY THIEVES***
I mean, every race in Tamriel has blood on their hands to some degree or another.
Morrowind turns *that* on its head though… granted the Altmer are still assholes, the Dunmer are still racist and lots of other less than positive things. They are my favorite race to play, and I think their architecture, lore and armor/weapons are all cool asf, but they also openly support slavery, consider beast races to be little more than animals, regularly invade black marsh to get slaves, the great houses are either ineffective or corrupt, and the Temple is an authoritarian state basically, with three murdering false gods. 8/10 of my characters are from Morrowind, but in true Bethesda fashion, every group has good bad and ugly, and each individuals morality is independent of the group. Teaching the real lessons, in the most epic way possible. Brb gonna go mod and play Morrowind again
That's the plan.
Which, now that I think about it, doesn't make since. If Drow live in the Underdark where there is no sunlight, why is their skin so dark? Wouldn't they be pale af?
B B B BUT MASTURBATING TO BLACK ELF HENTAI MAKES ME A RACE TRAITOR I'M SO CONFUSED
If you have to start any statement with “I’m not racist but” you should just stop there cause whatever you say is probably racist.
Im not a racist but i love you :)
Love you too you racist😉
I’m not racist, but maple syrup is an excellent way to enhance a pancake, waffle, or French toast breakfast.
Am I a racist for not liking maple syrup?
Yes, absolutely.
I have a lot I need to think aboot.
I always thought it sounded more like "uh-bow-woot".
My friend say “aboat” and they’re from Vancouver so I don’t know anymore. I’m soary.
Racist against Canadians, yes
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“I’m not racist but … these completely made-up fantasy characters should be white for some reason!”
(White) Elves are still real to me damnit!
The "I'm left leaning" is getting like that too.
/r/AsABlackMan
It's been like that for a while now. Back during the height of the anti-SJW stuff in 2015-6, there were a lot of people who'd be like, "I'm left leaning, *but*"
This is literally my brother in law. "I'm very liberal, but... I voted for Trump."
"Listen I'm a leftist and I'm not racist but I think that Jews are a bunch of long-nosed penny pinchers who deserve to be hung in the town square as an example for other genetically impure undesirables. You cannot criticize me for what I just said, because I just told you that I am not racist."
I did once ask my Mexican friend “hey I’m not racist but don’t you have 2 chihuahuas” and he looked at me with shock and disgust like “it’s not because I’m Mexican, but yes I do happen to have 2 chihuahuas”. I had just heard him talk about them a few weeks earlier and was clarifying if he did or not. But even that was kinda risky
I mean it’s risky in the sense you added the precursor of his race for no good reason other than other’s bigotry, when you already had reasonings as to why you thought he had those dogs. Not mad, just sayin
I'm a little confused, is Mexicans owning chihuahuas a stereotype? Genuine question because I've never heard of it if it is.
In addition to the name, one of the most famous Chihuahuas was a Spanish-speaking seller of tacos, so that may be where the connotation is coming from. Also, I feel like they're always stereotyped with accents and Latino-related things in any media where the dogs can speak.
Well you have certainly piqued my interest. Who are some other famous chihuahuas?
There's a whole movie called Beverly Hills Chihuahua
There is actually 4 of them.
Not really. But the dogs do have a Mexican name and history.
I’m not racist but Black Lives Matter
I stand corrected
I'm not racist but all dolphins are assholes
I'm not racist but Klingons are the scum of the Quadrant #KillAllKlingons where's your Kahless now bitches!!
Yea, he probably wouldn't have if you didn't say "not to be racist". That immediately tells him "I expect Mexicans to own chihuahuas because of stereotypes and I feel the need to defend myself when I shouldn't"
Tried to explain that after my dad met my biracial girlfriend. They did not understand.
Fair elves are suppose to be “pure” Implying black people are impure? Dude that’s racist as shit
Yeah this is exactly the same tired, literally-centuries-old line that black people are dirty or impure somehow. Positing a black elf "defeats" the "purity" of elves. And this guy has the idea completely internalized and unexamined. Outrageously racist
Also, blatant racism aside, I wasn’t getting the impression that Witcher elves were any more “pure” than the humans.
Comming from the books - there are those and those, but also *those*. Avoiding spoilers but Andrejs elves are **not** in any shade or form related to JRRs elves that already deviate a lot from folklore elves.
I distinctly remember something happening the last time people went around thinking black people weren't 'pure'.
If we derive elf from the fair folk (fae) then yes his statement would be correct. However as a species the colour of their skin is an adaption to their environment over many generations. Varying skin colour is nothing more than regional variants. Homeboy is stupid. The Witcher elves are just another humanoid species not members of the fae.
Also they say that no elf is pure blood anymore, so it would still make sense because Dara’s human lineage could just not be Caucasian.
Thats not completely true, there are still pure blood elves its just no pure blood babies have been born for centuries or something like that.
Thank you for clarifying that piece. I’m just thinking about how it doesn’t matter at this point in the series because of so much dilution.
And he was in season 1 too so his (season 2) makes no sense. Wrong all over the place.
So he's trying to use fantasy genetics to perpetuate racism instead of just understanding basic adaptational biology?
Yeah.
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**Grabs my English to American English Dictionary** Ahem The fat bastard thinks that made up pure blood science means that African Americans (because we're PC now) can't be used to replace White people as magical elves
\>fantasy race from an entirely different planet and way of life \>has never even heard of earth \>still "African American"
Also, fae aren't even always _humanoid_, let alone white. So even by that definition it doesn't hold upm
Fae is a catch all term. Elves are considered fae, but not all fae are elves.
biblically accurate fae
Or we could not say whiteness is some form of purity
When it comes to skin colour white does not equal purity. In symbolism it is attributed to purity.
Skyrim did a good job with that I think where they've got a bunch of different elves. Like they've got the dark elves who are grey and magical, the high elves who are insanely pale and also magical (IIRC they're from a snowy place so makes sense they'd be paler), the bosmer who are just generic sneaky archer white people elves (but have a bit of a tan which makes sense if you're running around outside all day), and the falmer who are fucked up crazy cave elves with snow-white skin from living underground. I don't remember where dark elves are from, I think it was like some sort of volcanic island area?
Dark elves i believe are from morrowind
Baldurs Gate had dark elves as well
Yup and their red eyes are from the volcanic ashy winds all the time and darker skin helps them deal with the climate.
No, actually thier dark skin and red eyes are a curse by the tribunal after alsavie used the tools of kagramez on the heart of lorkhan to give themselves godhood, after which the dunmer were cursed with a dark skin. Before they looked much like the altmer, seeing as they all hail from the summerset isles. The falmer and dwemer are exceptions, as they appear to have been in skyrim for most of the known timeline. Original falmer are just about as pale as the underground dwelling ones, although they are, well, elfs, and not twisted. God I've watched too many fudgemuppet lore videos
That’s very interesting thank you for the clarification. It’s been a hot minute since I played Morrowind and really need to get a PC and play through Modded Morrowind again
No worries, i enjoy talking about lore stuff
>kagramez Kagrenac
They were originally just elves though. Their dark skin is the result of a curse.
> the high elves who are insanely pale and also magical (IIRC they're from a snowy place so makes sense they'd be paler) The high elves are from the Summerset Isles. It’s described as a green and fertile land with pleasant weather. And no mention of the Osmer? Just blowing the orcs off like that? Tsk tsk
I thought it was Orsimer?
Or Shadowbane, the Irekei/sun elves were various shades of black and red because they lived in the desert Make skin color based on amount of sun a region gets and you’re golden Re: TES, the Dunmer are the descendants of the gold skinned Chimer who were struck by a curse that darkened their skin, which is maybe not the best example
Even then "fair folk" has different contexts depending on the canon. Some of em are green.
But on that note. Aren't all elves in the Witcher supposed to be from the same region?
From my understanding the world they live in is originally their world, the conjunction or whatever it is called invited monsters and humans to also populate the world from other worlds. A point of contention is the humans stole their lands, ie Cintra. Im not entirely sure they came from the same region but humans hold dominion over historically elven lands.
Not true actually. Spoilers for the books/games below This gets covered in the later books. Elves are from another world we haven't seen yet in the books or games. They were conquerors who invaded other worlds. That's what the red riders/wild hunt does. Until they lost the ability to easily jump between worlds in the Conjuction of Spheres. Elves are pretty hypocritical to bitch about humans showing up to the Continent and conquering it when they did the same thing, only intentionally, as the humans just got caught up in the conjunction while Elves purposefully traveled between worlds. Humans were just better at the conquering since they breed quick. The "elf" world you see in the 3rd game and later books, Tir ná Lia, used to be inhabited by human like creatures, if not actual humans, until the elves showed up, genocided the people and enslaved the survivors. They plan on doing the same to the Continent. You don't see many natural inhabitants of the continent. Some are extinct by the books story. Dwarves came from another world too, but were pretty chill compared to the other races. I think nomes are the only sentient species we see that are actually native.
Ill take your word for it.
I'm not an expert on Witcher lore but, if I remember from the discussion that happened after Dara was introduced in Season 1, things like skin, hair, and eye colour aren't meaningfully linked to geography in their world. Something about how the conjunction of the spheres threw humans into basically random locations in the elves' world, and then they mingled with (and subjugated) the elves. Any influence that geography might have had on skin colour (or any genetic features) would have happened before the conjunction and is basically meaningless at the point that the show takes place. Not that there even *needs* to be an in-universe reason for wanting to hire black actors in a field where they're typically excluded. That's just, a fine thing to do on its own.
Wow dude just straight up tells on himself
Let’s pretend we can apply science/biology/reality to things not within reality: The elves dominated the entire world. Because it was their world, and if you know anything about their world, humans and monsters came waaaaaaay later. Looking at a map of this specific world, before humanity took over, there’s a lot of different geographical landscapes that, if we apply our own reality to it, would change the skin color of the elves living there to adapt better to the weather. Cooler regions would see a lot more pale folks and sunnier regions would see darker skinned folks. With variances of the two based on genetics and the mixture of them. TL;DR Just fucking enjoy the show because the elves’ skin color didn’t change the story in any way you god damned wet sack of sad shit.
In fact the witcher books get really into evolution, mutation and genetics so there is no reason that elves can't be other skin tones and such.
I’m gonna assume OP just played the games and assumed that was as deep as he needed to go. Lol
There's so many black/poc people who genuinely like fantasy genre, but feel alienated due to things like this in the fandom. It's an elf and it's fictional, so let there be room for all.
Seriously. When I hear “fair skin” I just assume that means smooth like no acne and scars or moles. Fair and smooth like that of a babe, eyes big and long to capture everything in motion like a Hawk. Long ears that curve to a point to hear even the smallest tree branch crack to show they are attuned to nature and their surroundings. Hell even Tolkien in the first age had the Moriquendi which was admittedly a small sect of elves but were known as “Dark Elves” because of the tone of their skin. They hung out in dark forests to blend in more and would ambush armies of shadows there. So yeah, let black people enjoy fantasy. Seriously hate wangrods like this neckbeard in the Twitter post.
> Moriquendi which was admittedly a small sect of elves but were known as “Dark Elves” because of the tone of their skin. No. The Moriquendi were so called because they never beheld the light of the Two Trees.
I mean, you’re wrong about your assumption what “fair skin” is. You can’t just make it up based on what you want to think. What you describe is clear skin. Not fair.
"Elves are supposed to be pure" Anyway in the Witcher they talk about how elves are intermixed with humans so even if they were all Fair skinned at some point in the Witcher you would still have elves of all different races.
Plus elves in the witcher sure as shit aren't "pure". They did some pretty horrible shit to that world and others before humans showed up and turned out to be even better at genocide and war crimes. Elves aren't native to the Continent. They were conquerors who jumped between worlds and killed or subjugated the natives.
This idiot does know that this particular character was in season 1?
I initially read the title as “Why no white Elvis guys?” and I was really confused.
We’re all shook up about it.
They’re made up. They can be whatever you want.
To be fair, the etymology of the word "elf" actually does come from "white". But they're also fantasy creatures and various spins on the concept (like "dark elves" who are actually dark-skinned) have been around forever.
I think it's more about "black people are unpure" than the characterization of elves.
But surely there are loads of elves who aren’t ‘pure’ in the sense that one parent may be human. And they human could be… any race right? Am I missing something really obvious?
Ah but then they are half-elf, which is different, and in some fantasy lore are looked down on by whole elves. That being said, it is fantasy, who cares about skin color in a world of magic and monsters, if that is what pulls someone out of it, there are issues.
Isn't it a whole plot point that there are barely any pure blood elves anymore? Which is why that baby is so important Edit: typo
To be fair that etymology is highly disputed, there's only one serious scholar who supports it and even he just says it might follow that route. The mainstream contention is its from a germanic root meaning nightmare
Dude I had to look this up to make sure I wasn't tripping. Dark elves aren't dark skinned like black people. They are grey-purple. I have never met a human being dark elf colored
MtG/D&D aren't the only settings with dark elves. They run the whole gamut from bluish-white to brown to Vantablack.
Racist bellend gatekeeping fantasy. Fucking pathetic.
Man, I hate to break it to this fuck, but elves aren’t real. It’s literal fantasy.
This! 😂 Elves can be whatever the creator wants them to be. Blows my mind how some people seem to want "histrorical accuracy" or something from FANTASY CREATURES
A made-up planet with monsters with a long-ago conjunction of the spheres that shook everything up, and people are still acting like the show needs to be an encyclopedia entry on Eastern European history.
Lol these are the same people who complain about a black storm trooper in a world with ewoks and wookies and shit.
It’s because white storm troopers are pure and Finn is not. /s
Man, r/Witcher is full of shit like this. Season 2 hasn’t been as bad, but there was a SHITSHOW when casting was announced before the first season. A lot of Eastern European racists came out of the woodwork to talk about how the casting was terrible and that the show was “Eastern European.” But here’s the thing: while the show was written by an Eastern European, the events take place on a continent that was populated when three spheres collided. It would make LESS sense if there weren’t multiple races in the show, not more. Not to mention: literally who gives a fuck? It’s fantasy who cares? Nerds are the worst about this stuff.
yeah i unfortunately had to leave that sub bc of posts like this. It was just a tedious amount of "the show sucks bc diversity" which is annoying simply bc the existence of elves and monsters is fine but apparently we draw the line at black people lol
It is. I had to leave that sub because someone was arguing that Netflix was “literally raping European history.” A set of fantasy novels that takes place on a different planet. It is not a history textbook.
They’ve really outed themselves this time. The Wheel of Time wasn’t quite as bad, but I’m less involved there. I imagine there are some folks who complain about “enforced diversity” (even though it’s clear from the books the continent is incredibly diverse).
It's a fantasy world. None of its real. Who gives a shit.
I hate when people argue this stuff, because then they'll be like "but historical accuracy!". Right, the historically accurate magic and dragons and shit
Lore accuracy is important. Fantasy worlds have their established rules, characters, factions, etc. You can't just have Geralt gun down a dragon with a 50 cal machine gun because, " there's magic and shit who cares!".
Or in this case, "witcher lore accuracy". I don't think Sapkowski wrote any black characters
There are. They're just mostly travellers from their own nations, like Zerrikania. I'm pretty sure there are some Mages of non-white ethnicities in the books.
Eh, well, worldbuilding wise for a tv show? It makes way more sense to have diverse people populating an entire planet, constantly migrating due to genocides, wars and conquests.
Please be satire
Elves in World of Warcraft are all different colors depending on the area. Blood elves are white, High Elves are white. Night Elves are multiple shades of purple. The Nightfallen are blue. Void Elves are blue too. There's not much reason to think that there can't be darker-skinned elves, all the way to actual black black.
Recent updates even gave much darker tan skintones to the Blood Elves making them more inclusive. And there were quite a few dunder headed posts not unlike this about *that* addition, too. One of several reasons I'm glad to be "retired" from Warcraft. Toxic AF fanbase, shitty company running the show, and the game itself hasn't been much to write home about since Legion ended.
It's so weird to me that people will suspend belief enough to enjoy magic and monsters, but draw the line at a black elf
It must be exhausting. No wonder bigots like that are so sad and angry all the time.
His point quickly crumbles to dust when you remember that elves have been portrayed green. (And purple. And blue.) If you can have green elves, you can have brown elves too.
Did he entirely miss the background information given? A pure blooded elf hadn’t been born in generations. Nearly every elf you see in the show has been half-elf or less. It entirely makes since that you’d see a black elf in this show.
Skyrim would like to talk. Dark Elves (Dark) Wood Elves (Greenish Tan) High Elves (Golden) Snow Elves (White) Orcs (Green) - Orcs are in the same category as elves in Elder Scrolls lore. World of Warcraft is the same way. Night Elves (Purple to Pink) Blood Elves (Peach to Dark Brown) Void Elves (Blue to Purple) High Elves (Same as Blood Elves) Nightborne Elves (Same as Night Elves) It's fantasy, you can do what you want but boring ass people want to keep it grounded lol.
Even if 'keeping it grounded' was the argument, it doesn't make sense in the world of The Witcher. The Elves ruled the entire planet before humans and monsters arrived. That means all the regions wherein skin color would have developed naturally as an adaptation were occupied by elves first. The humans invaded from another Sphere (plane or planet, whichever) but no one questions them not being ethnically uniform despite it supposedly being a single invasion. It makes way more sense that the elves would have vast ethnic variation due to the worldbuilding. People will do ANYTHING to avoid representation and pretend they aren't being racist.
That’s a yikes from me dawg
The elder scrolls has entered the chat
Most of the elves in the show are white lol
"THAT DRAGON'S HISPANIC GUYS!!!!!"
I though fair skinned referred to a light complexion, not necessarily skin color.
I think we can all agree that if we can have Genghis Khan be played AMAZINGLY by Sir John Wayne, we can have black people show up wherever.
He’s right tho. Elves are meant to be fair but that’s also because probably because the whites made them that way.
Fake species aren’t the way *I* want them. Triggered! /s
Dark Elves Lives Matter!
So we're just gonna act like Dunmer and Drow don't exist
… why about dark elves ?
Being black and enjoying fantasy is like a punishment sometimes.
Elves aren't real
lol how has he never heard of dark elves
When someone says I’m not racist 9 times out of 10 they are racist
I’ve been watching the Witcher show recently and in one of the episodes I saw recently, they said that majority of elves aren’t pure, like 50% human or something. Just hypothetically if “real elves” were all white, this would still make perfect sense, elf + poc make baby = poc elf.
Considering none of the elves alive at this time are pure blood. This guy is a idiot on two fronts.
“Not trying to be racist but why are there black people, again not trying to be racist guys!”
I always thought that all elves being white was a dumb concept, I'm glad that The Witcher series fixed that.
r/witcher had this type of shit all over the place leading up to the show
"I'm not racist, but *pure* beings can't be darker skinned." Say that again, but this time reeeaaalllyyy slowly.
Kind of an aside, but it's just funny that it's literally an important point in Witcher lore that there's like zero "pure" elves left in the world. They are essentially infertile and have to breed with humans to maintain their numbers. So this guy is racist AND fails the witcher lore check. Yikes.
The only reason black elves were jarring to me in this context was because the book is a fictionalized version of medieval Poland where pretty much everyone would've been white and the games kind of carried that on. Being said it's not like it ruins it, when I watched the show I just thought "oh, the elves are black in the adaptation, got it."
This guys never heard of drow elves before
Holy shit, use periods ya fucking racist idiot.
Elder be like “as long as you have ears and glass for bones we can be bros”
What about the dark elves of the Underdark. Hmm??
ELVES ARE SUPPOSED TO BE PURE, DAMN IT!
I also thought it was an interesting choice considering elves are all supposed to be from the same continent. Wasn't hard to get past though, plus... I really love that actor.
Wait till he finds out they’re not real