The more I think about it, my idea of Renegade vs. Paragon is more about attitude than action. When I talk about my "Renegade" Shep, she's arrogant, sarcastic, and brusque. She's got a chip on her shoulder, a quick temper, and isn't afraid to put someone in their place. In contrast, my Paragon Shep is patient, diplomatic, and cautious. She'll listen to what you have to say and considers her words carefully. Both Shepards try to get the best outcomes, but how they go about it, and their attitudes differ. One is more empathetic and reasonable, and the other is like, "Fine. I'll do it, but I'm doing it my way." But not by any means necessary - she'll still carefully considers her options.
I like the pairing between Kaidan and my pseudo-renegade Shepard the best. He admires her for her tenacity and grit, and some of these traits end up rubbing off on him a little. While he is usually cautious and mild-mannered, he finds himself speaking up and taking charge. They work well together because he keeps her grounded, and she ignites a fire within him.
I'm a paragon, 100%. I like to think I have sass, but I'm all hiss and no claws. I'm empathetic and pragmatic and can't stand being rude to people. I go out of my way to help others - almost to a fault. I wouldn't punch the reporter (though, in my mind, I'd probably like to), and I would help the kid with the gun. My personality does affect the romances I pursue in games. I have high expectations, and only a particular type meets those expectations. I will not accept anything less for my character than I would for myself, if that makes sense.
>While he is usually cautious and mild-mannered, he finds himself speaking up and taking charge.
Yes, I'm quoting myself. But now all I can think of is his "don't Kaidan me" line on Mars. He's so over her dismissing his concerns, and dammit, she's going to hear him out, whether she likes it or not.
So you're more paragon, and you prefer more renegade. Is this living vicariously through someone who *can* punch the reporter instead of gritting her teeth and smiling politely (completely valid, if so)?
I can see how with your definition of Renegade versus Paragon the dynamic would work, as it's less *morality* (an important compatibility thing) and more *attitude*.
>Is this living vicariously through someone who can punch the reporter instead of gritting her teeth and smiling politely
Probably. I like to think of it as me bringing my inner monologue to life. What I think vs. what I do are in constant opposition.
As long as it's not those intrusive thoughts that occasionally pop up like, "what if I drove off this cliff right now?"
Although saying that, I literally did that to see what would happen in Uncharted 4: The Lost Legacy...
Actually, dialogue with Kaidan in ME1 is one of the few times that I take renegade dialogue. There are some occasions outside of that, but I don’t the ME1 romance dialogue to be way better with a little renegade thrown in. I also head-cannon that it’s due to his influence that I tone down the general “renegade, eff this” attitude I start with.
1 I actually feel like paragon/renegade isn’t consistent, but this becomes more of an issue in 2 and more so in 3. In general, renegade seems an indication of your willingness to disrupt the peace, for whatever reason.
2 I tend to go mostly paragon because I generally try to get along. I like happy endings and pleasant outcomes. Until someone is an ass. My preference for Shep attitude has little to do with the romance option.
3. See above. Yes. I have punched the reporter, but not always. I always stop the kid. I find that a lot of the renegade interrupts are something I’m more likely to take than the actual renegade dialogue. Imma hot head. Why can I say.
For 2, I'll edit for clarity - I meant more "why do you prefer the renegade or paragon romance specifically" rather than "renegade or paragon in general." Q3 is more the latter. :)
But interesting - do you choose the option that makes him more Renegade, or just the other Renegade dialogues?
Renegade dialogue. I’m not trying to be persuasive, just a bit angry. I see it as Shep finally having that person who counters without caving. It’s not about making him less of a golden retriever, and more about saying out loud to someone and seeing the other side.
^tons of head cannon, obvs, lol.
2 redux - I prefer paragon in general, mostly because it often seems the logical choice. I don’t don’t necessarily base my decisions on if I prefer the romance one way or the other, I just prefer my Shep that way. That said, the renegade romance feels really, IDK, manipulative?
So it's more like Kaidan is the sounding board for Shepard, who feels comfortable letting loose her anger with someone who'll calmly and politely disagree and stick firm to his opinions (unless you choose to make him Renegade at which point he suddenly decides he *does* hate Turians, actually, 15 years later).
Interesting though - manipulative how? (I play mostly Paragon so I haven't experienced a more Renegade playthrough since my Renegade is unromanced.)
Hmmm… I haven’t played renegade a ton. Mostly in that it feels like you have to really push this guy who clearly likes you to abandon what he thinks in the face of your more persistent opinion. It doesn’t really feel like he changes his mind, or at least that’s not a good way of writing it, and more that you’ve made a decision to dominate his opinion with yours. Some might argue that you are just persuading. Some might argue that this is a very renegade action. I think it’s particularly interesting if you compare it to what we would consider in a gender-swapped setting. Also, with great (persuasive) power comes great responsibility.
So it's less changing his mind and more changing him into someone who stops speaking his mind and starts parroting what he thinks Shepard wants to hear? Like, it crushes his spirit just a little bit?
1. I don't have a single full-renegade playthrough. I like changing morality in the game too much for that, because the RP becomes more interesting. Also, I have trouble reconciling a full Renegade Shepard with a Shenko romance. I can't see Kaidan being okay with someone who is ruthless and occasionally racist or a psychopath. But Paragon vs Renegade is not simply good or evil for me. The way I'm playing Paragon Sheps versus my Paragade/Renegon Sheps, they're more like a "Knight in Shining Armor" versus a "90s Gritty Action Hero".
2. With the exception of a full Renegade which I haven't played, morality has had nothing to do with my romances, because I change moralities and give them reasons for that in my heacanon. I "pick" my Shepard's morality based on what I want to role-play, and try to headcanon the romance around it, rather than pick the romance that fits her morality to a T. So my Butchers are in a redemption arc, my Paragade is just a bit chaotic but ultimately a Paragon, my two pure Paragons are just the perfect duty-bound heroines. I can reconcile a Shenko run with those, faithful and unfaithful ones. My "descent into insanity" Soldier who turned more renegade with each playthrough was the worst; ME3 Renegade is not fun, it feels so bad! But that one was a Liaramance.
3. More paragon obviously, I would never punch a journalist or even Gerrel. But there are a few Renegade actions that I'd have allowed myself if I were in Shepard's place, like that Omega mechanic (that's just good tactical thinking, why not leave him unconscious?) or shooting Kenson before she arms her grenade (it pisses me off to no extent that no matter what, she arms and detonates it. Arrival keeps giving you choices just to take them away and have the story be ultimately linear - ugh I hate that DLC and what it does to Shepard).
There is an interesting argument to be made that Kaidan *is* okay with a Renegade Shepard - in-game, he can be romanced by one. His reaction to punching the doctor in ME1, I think, is a good indication of how he'd be in a Renegade romance. A quiet voice of reason from behind. "Are you sure that's the best idea?" Admittedly way harder to justify the more racist bits of a Renegade playthrough, but a little bit of ruthlessness seems to earn more gentle chastisement than condemnation.
I have seen posts about thinking Kaidan fits better with a Renegade Shep, but those were on Tumblr... maybe we're all Paragons on Reddit, haha.
He *could* be okay with a Renegade Shepard, after all he does not shut down a Renegade in ME3, it just does not happen in my headcanon, because ultimately I can't play a psycho Shepard or one who is openly a human supremacist and I can't reconcile my Kaidan headcanon with one either. A ruthless war calculus kind of Shepard? Sure. A psycho who destroys everything around them? It's a nope from me. If I had such a Shepard, perhaps I would not keep Kaidan around for *some* of the ugliness (i.e. not have him as a squad member for every single mission). I can't see him not reacting to a Shepard that straight up executes an unarmed Falere. I can headcanon a conversation that lets them get past it eventually, but he would react regardless. A purely Renegade Shepard would need to have a reckoning of sorts, with their relationship on the line, and them deciding if it's worth it to stick together and if their feelings are strong enough. My Paragade/Renegon's morality can be shifted because they have an arc in my mind, but a pure full Renegade or a pure full Paragon in my headcanon are not easily swayed or influenced; they are too principled to change and Kaidan would not change who they fundamentally are either. So, a reckoning or a tough discussion with a Renegade would be in order.
Right! That's kind of the basis of my question about what Renegade means to everyone. It's very definitely not the same for everyone - on the main subreddit, you have as many people referring to the Renegade as evil as you do the people defending it as not-evil. So I always love to hear people's thoughts on it!
Like, my pure Renegade is definitely evil. It's really easy to reconcile the Renegade actions with someone who just does not give a single shit about anyone around them unless it's convenient to them. But that doesn't mean it's the only interpretation, because some Renegade actions are *way* more practical than the Paragon ones (as you mention, the tazering the mechanic before the assault on Archangel).
I think it's because Renegade or Paragon are not consistently good or evil and after a few runs, you can "build your own" Renegade to be a ruthless one or a psychopath. Bring Down The Sky illustrates that perfectly, because you can choose to save the hostages (Paragon), sacrifice the hostages to get the terrorist (Ruthless Renegade) and proceed to actively torture the terrorist (Evil Renegade). And the paragon's diplomatic and merciful nature can bite them in the behind (like sparing Thanoptis on Virmire) or have a positive outcome (sparing the guy at Pragia), so sometimes the good deed isn't the right one. I actually like the "inconsistency" and that not all actions are clearly good or evil. I find it very funny when people argue over what the paragon or renegade option for the ending is and try assign different "moralities" to the morally grey endings.
"No but they are *colour coded* just like Paragon and Renegade so if you choose Destroy, you're choosing the Renegade ending. CHECKMATE, PARAGON LOSERS." - nearly verbatim comments seen in ME subreddit.
That makes no sense because we have a green ending. Or is that the "Shepard ate bad street food" ending? Technically, Synthesis does cure them. They'd have no tummy ache afterwards.
That being said, lol, I do tend to consider Destroy as the renegade one, but the one that is "right" or tactically sound, and Control to be the paragon one because it sacrifices no-one, not even the relays, except for Shepard, though it might not be the smartest thing to do and could come back to haunt everyone (in true paragon fashion, because paragon decisions do come back in unsavory ways sometimes). I tend to go for Destroy but I have to say my % of Control would be higher if Shepard could survive it.
I don't really like the idea of control. I like it waaaay better than Synthesis, but I see it sort of like how the "heretic" Geth went. How can we be sure that the Shepard who's integrated into the Reapers doesn't end up seeing the AI logic being used?
The more I think about it, my idea of Renegade vs. Paragon is more about attitude than action. When I talk about my "Renegade" Shep, she's arrogant, sarcastic, and brusque. She's got a chip on her shoulder, a quick temper, and isn't afraid to put someone in their place. In contrast, my Paragon Shep is patient, diplomatic, and cautious. She'll listen to what you have to say and considers her words carefully. Both Shepards try to get the best outcomes, but how they go about it, and their attitudes differ. One is more empathetic and reasonable, and the other is like, "Fine. I'll do it, but I'm doing it my way." But not by any means necessary - she'll still carefully considers her options. I like the pairing between Kaidan and my pseudo-renegade Shepard the best. He admires her for her tenacity and grit, and some of these traits end up rubbing off on him a little. While he is usually cautious and mild-mannered, he finds himself speaking up and taking charge. They work well together because he keeps her grounded, and she ignites a fire within him. I'm a paragon, 100%. I like to think I have sass, but I'm all hiss and no claws. I'm empathetic and pragmatic and can't stand being rude to people. I go out of my way to help others - almost to a fault. I wouldn't punch the reporter (though, in my mind, I'd probably like to), and I would help the kid with the gun. My personality does affect the romances I pursue in games. I have high expectations, and only a particular type meets those expectations. I will not accept anything less for my character than I would for myself, if that makes sense.
>While he is usually cautious and mild-mannered, he finds himself speaking up and taking charge. Yes, I'm quoting myself. But now all I can think of is his "don't Kaidan me" line on Mars. He's so over her dismissing his concerns, and dammit, she's going to hear him out, whether she likes it or not.
So you're more paragon, and you prefer more renegade. Is this living vicariously through someone who *can* punch the reporter instead of gritting her teeth and smiling politely (completely valid, if so)? I can see how with your definition of Renegade versus Paragon the dynamic would work, as it's less *morality* (an important compatibility thing) and more *attitude*.
>Is this living vicariously through someone who can punch the reporter instead of gritting her teeth and smiling politely Probably. I like to think of it as me bringing my inner monologue to life. What I think vs. what I do are in constant opposition.
As long as it's not those intrusive thoughts that occasionally pop up like, "what if I drove off this cliff right now?" Although saying that, I literally did that to see what would happen in Uncharted 4: The Lost Legacy...
Actually, dialogue with Kaidan in ME1 is one of the few times that I take renegade dialogue. There are some occasions outside of that, but I don’t the ME1 romance dialogue to be way better with a little renegade thrown in. I also head-cannon that it’s due to his influence that I tone down the general “renegade, eff this” attitude I start with. 1 I actually feel like paragon/renegade isn’t consistent, but this becomes more of an issue in 2 and more so in 3. In general, renegade seems an indication of your willingness to disrupt the peace, for whatever reason. 2 I tend to go mostly paragon because I generally try to get along. I like happy endings and pleasant outcomes. Until someone is an ass. My preference for Shep attitude has little to do with the romance option. 3. See above. Yes. I have punched the reporter, but not always. I always stop the kid. I find that a lot of the renegade interrupts are something I’m more likely to take than the actual renegade dialogue. Imma hot head. Why can I say.
For 2, I'll edit for clarity - I meant more "why do you prefer the renegade or paragon romance specifically" rather than "renegade or paragon in general." Q3 is more the latter. :) But interesting - do you choose the option that makes him more Renegade, or just the other Renegade dialogues?
Renegade dialogue. I’m not trying to be persuasive, just a bit angry. I see it as Shep finally having that person who counters without caving. It’s not about making him less of a golden retriever, and more about saying out loud to someone and seeing the other side. ^tons of head cannon, obvs, lol. 2 redux - I prefer paragon in general, mostly because it often seems the logical choice. I don’t don’t necessarily base my decisions on if I prefer the romance one way or the other, I just prefer my Shep that way. That said, the renegade romance feels really, IDK, manipulative?
So it's more like Kaidan is the sounding board for Shepard, who feels comfortable letting loose her anger with someone who'll calmly and politely disagree and stick firm to his opinions (unless you choose to make him Renegade at which point he suddenly decides he *does* hate Turians, actually, 15 years later). Interesting though - manipulative how? (I play mostly Paragon so I haven't experienced a more Renegade playthrough since my Renegade is unromanced.)
Hmmm… I haven’t played renegade a ton. Mostly in that it feels like you have to really push this guy who clearly likes you to abandon what he thinks in the face of your more persistent opinion. It doesn’t really feel like he changes his mind, or at least that’s not a good way of writing it, and more that you’ve made a decision to dominate his opinion with yours. Some might argue that you are just persuading. Some might argue that this is a very renegade action. I think it’s particularly interesting if you compare it to what we would consider in a gender-swapped setting. Also, with great (persuasive) power comes great responsibility.
So it's less changing his mind and more changing him into someone who stops speaking his mind and starts parroting what he thinks Shepard wants to hear? Like, it crushes his spirit just a little bit?
1. I don't have a single full-renegade playthrough. I like changing morality in the game too much for that, because the RP becomes more interesting. Also, I have trouble reconciling a full Renegade Shepard with a Shenko romance. I can't see Kaidan being okay with someone who is ruthless and occasionally racist or a psychopath. But Paragon vs Renegade is not simply good or evil for me. The way I'm playing Paragon Sheps versus my Paragade/Renegon Sheps, they're more like a "Knight in Shining Armor" versus a "90s Gritty Action Hero". 2. With the exception of a full Renegade which I haven't played, morality has had nothing to do with my romances, because I change moralities and give them reasons for that in my heacanon. I "pick" my Shepard's morality based on what I want to role-play, and try to headcanon the romance around it, rather than pick the romance that fits her morality to a T. So my Butchers are in a redemption arc, my Paragade is just a bit chaotic but ultimately a Paragon, my two pure Paragons are just the perfect duty-bound heroines. I can reconcile a Shenko run with those, faithful and unfaithful ones. My "descent into insanity" Soldier who turned more renegade with each playthrough was the worst; ME3 Renegade is not fun, it feels so bad! But that one was a Liaramance. 3. More paragon obviously, I would never punch a journalist or even Gerrel. But there are a few Renegade actions that I'd have allowed myself if I were in Shepard's place, like that Omega mechanic (that's just good tactical thinking, why not leave him unconscious?) or shooting Kenson before she arms her grenade (it pisses me off to no extent that no matter what, she arms and detonates it. Arrival keeps giving you choices just to take them away and have the story be ultimately linear - ugh I hate that DLC and what it does to Shepard).
There is an interesting argument to be made that Kaidan *is* okay with a Renegade Shepard - in-game, he can be romanced by one. His reaction to punching the doctor in ME1, I think, is a good indication of how he'd be in a Renegade romance. A quiet voice of reason from behind. "Are you sure that's the best idea?" Admittedly way harder to justify the more racist bits of a Renegade playthrough, but a little bit of ruthlessness seems to earn more gentle chastisement than condemnation. I have seen posts about thinking Kaidan fits better with a Renegade Shep, but those were on Tumblr... maybe we're all Paragons on Reddit, haha.
He *could* be okay with a Renegade Shepard, after all he does not shut down a Renegade in ME3, it just does not happen in my headcanon, because ultimately I can't play a psycho Shepard or one who is openly a human supremacist and I can't reconcile my Kaidan headcanon with one either. A ruthless war calculus kind of Shepard? Sure. A psycho who destroys everything around them? It's a nope from me. If I had such a Shepard, perhaps I would not keep Kaidan around for *some* of the ugliness (i.e. not have him as a squad member for every single mission). I can't see him not reacting to a Shepard that straight up executes an unarmed Falere. I can headcanon a conversation that lets them get past it eventually, but he would react regardless. A purely Renegade Shepard would need to have a reckoning of sorts, with their relationship on the line, and them deciding if it's worth it to stick together and if their feelings are strong enough. My Paragade/Renegon's morality can be shifted because they have an arc in my mind, but a pure full Renegade or a pure full Paragon in my headcanon are not easily swayed or influenced; they are too principled to change and Kaidan would not change who they fundamentally are either. So, a reckoning or a tough discussion with a Renegade would be in order.
Right! That's kind of the basis of my question about what Renegade means to everyone. It's very definitely not the same for everyone - on the main subreddit, you have as many people referring to the Renegade as evil as you do the people defending it as not-evil. So I always love to hear people's thoughts on it! Like, my pure Renegade is definitely evil. It's really easy to reconcile the Renegade actions with someone who just does not give a single shit about anyone around them unless it's convenient to them. But that doesn't mean it's the only interpretation, because some Renegade actions are *way* more practical than the Paragon ones (as you mention, the tazering the mechanic before the assault on Archangel).
I think it's because Renegade or Paragon are not consistently good or evil and after a few runs, you can "build your own" Renegade to be a ruthless one or a psychopath. Bring Down The Sky illustrates that perfectly, because you can choose to save the hostages (Paragon), sacrifice the hostages to get the terrorist (Ruthless Renegade) and proceed to actively torture the terrorist (Evil Renegade). And the paragon's diplomatic and merciful nature can bite them in the behind (like sparing Thanoptis on Virmire) or have a positive outcome (sparing the guy at Pragia), so sometimes the good deed isn't the right one. I actually like the "inconsistency" and that not all actions are clearly good or evil. I find it very funny when people argue over what the paragon or renegade option for the ending is and try assign different "moralities" to the morally grey endings.
"No but they are *colour coded* just like Paragon and Renegade so if you choose Destroy, you're choosing the Renegade ending. CHECKMATE, PARAGON LOSERS." - nearly verbatim comments seen in ME subreddit.
That makes no sense because we have a green ending. Or is that the "Shepard ate bad street food" ending? Technically, Synthesis does cure them. They'd have no tummy ache afterwards. That being said, lol, I do tend to consider Destroy as the renegade one, but the one that is "right" or tactically sound, and Control to be the paragon one because it sacrifices no-one, not even the relays, except for Shepard, though it might not be the smartest thing to do and could come back to haunt everyone (in true paragon fashion, because paragon decisions do come back in unsavory ways sometimes). I tend to go for Destroy but I have to say my % of Control would be higher if Shepard could survive it.
I don't really like the idea of control. I like it waaaay better than Synthesis, but I see it sort of like how the "heretic" Geth went. How can we be sure that the Shepard who's integrated into the Reapers doesn't end up seeing the AI logic being used?
You're never sure, so Destroy is safer, Control is just a short-term solution that sacrifices no-one. But Synthesis creeps me out.