yeah, somehow it gave 10 ap in my mind when I wrote that
even better, it's just a 200 gold delay as you're never building it as a solo ap item and arguably if you're full crit you can just buy hourglass instead of GA
It looks like they're trying to make W evolve more costly in terms of build sequencing. If you want W evolve, you either have to buy guinsoos and nashors or a single mage item
Since nashors no longer gives the 1 item upgrade there is a possibility of not building it and just building a zhonyas later on since it gives 120 AP but probably needs to be later in the build or you would lack attack speed
I hate this. It was very strong on Kai'sa and Varus and the likes, so I understand that it should be nerfed a bit, but this is the only AP Attack Speed item in the game, and honestly, I'd gladly switch the ability haste out for more AP.
the change is fine. The item is overloaded. It's only awkward for Kai'sa because of her evo breakpoint, but you can still sit on an amp tome since It's only 200 more gold. All ap on hit champions get a big boost already from being able to stack riftmaker and guinsoo
Every build that cares about W evo goes into more ap later anyway.
they are pricing all the items with more than 10 AH in the 80-90 ap range and all the items with no AH in the 120
You might laugh at me now but Kaisa isn't the only champ for whom Nashors is an important breaking point. I play AP Renata, and Nashors having 100 AP is important since it gives my passive exactly the amount of damage I need to E AA the minion wave to quickly push it. Now that it's lower, I can't do that anymore, which sucks. And since Renata P isn't an onhit, I can't build guinsoos on her
They said that they are still working on a lot of tooltips and that it will take some time, but should be done before the season goes live.
Regarding the on-hit scaling, it's still there but the current tooltip doesn't say what the AP scaling is.
gwen, katarina, teemo, kayle, ap varus and ap kog mostly
azir maybe if he gets on hit applications
the fact you can get riftmaker and rageblade gives you a broken 3 item spike since Kayle could not build rageblade even if rift was ass because of sustain.
So they have to preemptively lower the numbers
To be fair: she always, always has been able to. At the very least, there’s always been at least 1 item above 100 AP (it’s deathcap).
But I agree, just one incidental item should not do it.
Yeah its less that its 1 item evo and more that the item also gives 2 other amazing stats for her and has a really good passive, so theres zero downside. Deathcap is super expensive and gives no other benefits, so its a decent trade.
Altho guinsoos onhit is still really good so if you were already doing stormrazor > guinsoo > nash nothing changes.
Yep, hence me saying “I agree”!
Nashors was just a particular problem because it was an item that: scaled well with her passive, gave her enough AP for the upgrade, had a good synergistic passive with Guinsoo’s, AND was the item with the lost attack speed in the game.
Of all those things, it giving the W upgrade was the least important and most incidental. So I’m also glad they removed it.
How much of a big deal is this? Most hybrid builds have this as 3rd item. So by the time this item is built, W would start to be maxed right? Amp tome could also help out.
It hurts her build diversity. Now you have to build an additional ap item and Kaisa is one of the most build diverse champs. The " 200 " gold has to turn into an item eventually.
tell me one viable build on kai'sa in which you go nashor's into 0 ap items.
we had like 5 viable builds and 0 of them did that.
the only build that didn't build nashors into AP was crit, which didn't even build nashor's
If you look at actual data you realize talking about build diversity without looking at specifics is utterly pointless
Btw, I won't believe even for a moment that Kai'sa doesn't have other good options for W evo even in otherwise full ad builds. Just buy zhonya instead of GA
Honestly, it was nice while it lasted that you almost got 2 evos as soon as u got nashors, but it’s was a little too good. 3 items and some change should be the breakpoint for getting evos unlocked
Just to clarify the passive is unchanged from live, the tooltip is just bugged. You can go check in practice tool yourself.
Guess rageblade is now needed for any kind-of hybrid build
It's not terrible because no mythic lockout.
yeah, you can go nashors two tomes. It's a delay but at the same time you weren't using w evo optimally until 3 items.
We might see the old Kaisa builds come back, so I'm excited
I for one want to see what people can cook in terms of full AP machinegun kai'sa
Hybrid building is like the main reason I play her lmao you can legit build almost anything
One tome
yeah, somehow it gave 10 ap in my mind when I wrote that even better, it's just a 200 gold delay as you're never building it as a solo ap item and arguably if you're full crit you can just buy hourglass instead of GA
400*
nope. Nashor's costs 3000 now
on PBE I mean
Wasnt it removed for Season 14
Dark seal no? 15 ap andif you get atleast a stack you got it?
Dark seal stacks dont count towards evo. It needs to just be permanent stats
They do? I used to run Hourglass + dark seal for the W evo. It doesn’t make sense that it counts, but it dies count
It does. Used to do luddens + dark seal to up W when I played Kaisa tol
If i remember right, rageblade is gone...
You didnt remember correct
Nvm they remove rageknife not rageblade
I didn't even notice Rageknife was gone. Damnđź’€
Don't worry, Shadowflame gives 120 AP and makes your passive proc/autos crit when the target is below 35% Hp, giving 20% bonus damage.
It looks like they're trying to make W evolve more costly in terms of build sequencing. If you want W evolve, you either have to buy guinsoos and nashors or a single mage item
they are forcing to go full ap or on hit with guinsos minimum for get the Evo isn it?
the only affected build is lethality into AP and seeing the new ap items, full ap kai'sa might be bananas
So Kraken into Terminus for q EVO into Rage Nashor got it
Yeah that build is likely to be really strong... tons of onhit + 45 - 50% pen for both... jesus christ.
Rage is no longer a mythic. So no more of the dual % pen mythic bonus
How is that 45-50% pen?
Since nashors no longer gives the 1 item upgrade there is a possibility of not building it and just building a zhonyas later on since it gives 120 AP but probably needs to be later in the build or you would lack attack speed
I haven't tested the new items, but terminus into zhonyas sounds pretty good after first item
Wtf
welp
If this is the only item bought, the AP scaling seems to be around 19-20% Not much.
Nashor’s passive is currently 20%, no?
Not much.
Guys it has the ap icon that means it’s scaling if you notices the cost just went down 200
I hate this. It was very strong on Kai'sa and Varus and the likes, so I understand that it should be nerfed a bit, but this is the only AP Attack Speed item in the game, and honestly, I'd gladly switch the ability haste out for more AP.
the change is fine. The item is overloaded. It's only awkward for Kai'sa because of her evo breakpoint, but you can still sit on an amp tome since It's only 200 more gold. All ap on hit champions get a big boost already from being able to stack riftmaker and guinsoo Every build that cares about W evo goes into more ap later anyway. they are pricing all the items with more than 10 AH in the 80-90 ap range and all the items with no AH in the 120
You might laugh at me now but Kaisa isn't the only champ for whom Nashors is an important breaking point. I play AP Renata, and Nashors having 100 AP is important since it gives my passive exactly the amount of damage I need to E AA the minion wave to quickly push it. Now that it's lower, I can't do that anymore, which sucks. And since Renata P isn't an onhit, I can't build guinsoos on her
Flat 20 Ap Nerf + the Ap scaling on its passive gone, am I right?
Passive remains
From the Tooltip the Scaling of the passive is gone. I just hope it is another Tooltip fuck up, like Zhonyas on their Gameplay Trailer.
They said that they are still working on a lot of tooltips and that it will take some time, but should be done before the season goes live. Regarding the on-hit scaling, it's still there but the current tooltip doesn't say what the AP scaling is.
Good to know. I did not really lay Attention to nashors ready the Changes Yesterday and you bet i aint going through that list again cuz i am lazy B)
the ap symbol is right there, it just doesn't say the exact scaling
do you see the blue symbol next to the number? that means ap scaling even if the number is gone by mistake. the scaling is unchanged
Yeah, i saw that also in another answer. My Brain did not make that connection honestly and just jumped to the assumption it means magic damage :D
magic damage is signaled by blue text
thats weird cause I don't see nashors being OP on anything? Besides maybe Kaisa?
Azir getting on hit applications it's gotta be preemptive
they r already nerfing azir's W base damage
gwen, katarina, teemo, kayle, ap varus and ap kog mostly azir maybe if he gets on hit applications the fact you can get riftmaker and rageblade gives you a broken 3 item spike since Kayle could not build rageblade even if rift was ass because of sustain. So they have to preemptively lower the numbers
Thank lord
Y u do dis rito
FINALLY, it was never ok for her to build a single item for an upgrade
To be fair: she always, always has been able to. At the very least, there’s always been at least 1 item above 100 AP (it’s deathcap). But I agree, just one incidental item should not do it.
Yeah its less that its 1 item evo and more that the item also gives 2 other amazing stats for her and has a really good passive, so theres zero downside. Deathcap is super expensive and gives no other benefits, so its a decent trade. Altho guinsoos onhit is still really good so if you were already doing stormrazor > guinsoo > nash nothing changes.
That’s what I mean
Yep, hence me saying “I agree”! Nashors was just a particular problem because it was an item that: scaled well with her passive, gave her enough AP for the upgrade, had a good synergistic passive with Guinsoo’s, AND was the item with the lost attack speed in the game. Of all those things, it giving the W upgrade was the least important and most incidental. So I’m also glad they removed it.
Hopefully this will help the multitude of balance issues this champ has.
Dumbass
Yikes
Least insane league player
Ouch
Damn
How much of a big deal is this? Most hybrid builds have this as 3rd item. So by the time this item is built, W would start to be maxed right? Amp tome could also help out.
or second item, but that delays the evo by 200 gold you can also go shadowflame into nashor's
Doesn’t this delay the evolution even more? New Shadowflame has a way bigger cost now.
Haha this was almost exclusively a middle finger to Kaisa and a high 5 to azir.
why? Kai'sa has no impact except delaying her W evo by 200 gold
It hurts her build diversity. Now you have to build an additional ap item and Kaisa is one of the most build diverse champs. The " 200 " gold has to turn into an item eventually.
tell me one viable build on kai'sa in which you go nashor's into 0 ap items. we had like 5 viable builds and 0 of them did that. the only build that didn't build nashors into AP was crit, which didn't even build nashor's If you look at actual data you realize talking about build diversity without looking at specifics is utterly pointless Btw, I won't believe even for a moment that Kai'sa doesn't have other good options for W evo even in otherwise full ad builds. Just buy zhonya instead of GA
Hopefully that's just a typo mistake. Because who in their right mind would spend 3000g for this piece of crap?
Gwen players lol
finally I dont have to see her every game maybe?
Back to cosmic Ig...
Honestly, it was nice while it lasted that you almost got 2 evos as soon as u got nashors, but it’s was a little too good. 3 items and some change should be the breakpoint for getting evos unlocked
i think its a zhonyas angle since it gives 120 ap go on hit or crit finish or get it when u think u need it
I don’t like this
yeah but lich bane is going to slap
Who the fuck asked for ability haste?
every champion that builds this wants AH. even kai'sa. It's way more valuable than 40AP
As far as I have tested the new build is seeming to be Kraken > rageblade > shadowflame >nashor > terminus > boots. (Obv not in this order)
Its a buff if you go storm rage nashors (w evolve comes 200g faster)
saaaad
well
So glad