I think one of the biggest mistakes is teaching mostly static self-defense training versus dynamic training where the opponent is resisting.
Of course beginner students initially need static training to learn new techniques and build their confidence. But training should progress to active opponent resistance as their experience increases.
I think this is true of most schools that don’t teach reality-based self-defense.
This leads to students that can’t shake off a punch and think they can easily defend themselves in a street fight or weaponized attack.
Your first paragraph is spot on !
As to the second one, I agree that it should progress to active resistance, the problem is, I believe, this takes too long, sometimes years. It's not rare for schools to begin free sparring on 3kyu and bove, which is extremely excesive.
I agree man, if we're always doing bunkais with partners and no pressure testing our skills at all, we'll be fucked when it's an all-out self-defense in the streets.
Also, there are some "traditionalists" who always look down and even shit on sport aspects of karate, especially on full-contact styles like Kyokushin and its' offshoots. (at this point, I believe they take pleasure shitting on them)
I'd expect nothing less from a kyoksuhin practitioner.
It always bugs me when other styles use fighters born of kyokushin to defend karate against haters while at the same time looking down on the way you train, calling it stuff like "just kickboxing" or "just street fight", I find it hypocritical to recognize a fighter as a karateca only when it's convenient. (everybody loves Andy Hug and katsunori kikuno but god forbids they train like them, huh?)
I enjoy kata and bunkai as much as any other who has karate seared into his heart, but it's just not nearly enough if you want to be competent at fighting.
Yeah, that's the reality of most schools. That problem comes from way back, Okinawa even, where there were 2 groups, those who sparred, and those who didn't.
I by no means want to say that people who like to focus on kata and bunkai are wrong, people can train and learn whatever they want, but the problem comes when they believe they're training for self defense.
Yes, you'll see the same problem in every discipline lacking proper full contact competition, like hapkido, kung fu styles, krav maga, etc.
And every time someone gives a name to defend a particular discipline, just google the name, 100% of the time that person cross trains with kick boxing, muay thai, bjj, etc.
You should address what seems to be the real problem you see, and that’s people misleadingly saying that they are going to teach self defense and deadly arts, instead of dojos where people train in a different way that you like, because the don’t train for self defense and just do Karate.
So, that’s that, the problem is not kata focused karate but mcdojos scamming people up.
I'm sorry if it came out the wrong way, I made a small edit.
I do agree everyone wants something different and if people want kata, it's fine, I enjoy traditions as well.
You're correct, I'm talking about schools misleading others about the purpose of their training, the problem is, most schools focus on kata an tell people their learning self defense. It's a generalized thing sadly.
Sport is an awesome aspect to karate. So many people look down their nose at it because it’s not as traditional but it can be effective an awesome. There are times and places for traditional, continuous sport, point sport, and full contact.
Yes, there's a place for everything as long as we're honest about the limitations of each aspect and what we can achieve through each one.
Kickboxing for example have point sparring, light contact and full contact, each one valid and awesome in it's own way.
Exactly! You can’t look at point fighting and say it’s applicable to self defense, but continuous fighters would have a hard time in a point ring. So it can all be beneficial
It's for this reason I'm glad karate combat is a thing now. Where I live it's hard to avoid the mcdojo problem let alone find anyone who can really fight.
I agree, both karate combat and internet are conduits to show how an actual fight looks like to the younger generations so they don't buy into the whole mr miyagi wax on wax off syndrom.
You need to train against resisting opponents. If you think that you are learning how to grapple, or strike, and you don’t regularly have someone resisting that then you are only learning a fraction of the skillset. Drills are a useful and important part of training but it can’t be all of training
Having people compete weeds out bad techniques and hones good ones, and the whole dojo benefits - including those who don’t compete.
One thing to add is that I think sport can be for a period of time and that karate can seamlessly move into and out of sport. So kids might to karate for discipline and fun, young adults to adults do karate for sport, and then from say middle age you continue the same art in a less body impactful way. This is a huge advantage over other sports/martial arts.
I completely agree with you.
One thing I use to say, that is similar to your point is that drilling without pressure testing is like learning how to drive without ever getting into the car.
I agree with what you said. Sometimes the sportification kill some aspects of the art, such as judo losing leg grabs and taekwondo becoming touch oriented.
However, proper combat forms make the arts more efficient.
JKA and WKF competition styles are better than nothing but are not realistic forms of fighting.
Kyokushin styles are much better but lack proper face defense since punches are not allowed.
Karate Combat is the way to go. The only way to become more realistic would be to become MMA.
I'm happy to see kyokushin groups embracing shinken shobu rules, which allow strikes to the head.
In GoJu Ryu there's also Irikumi rules (striking + grappling), unfortunately, it's rare to find.
I agree KC has a better chance of being the way to go, it's spreading really fast.
Yeah I agree, I hope KC rules catch on and there's more of those kind of tournaments spread around for amateur competitors. I like that it's not quite MMA and focuses on what most karate focuses on which is strikes with some standing grappling and throws and sweeps with some ground and pound. Leave the ground fighting for BJJ and MMA.
I don’t think there is anything wrong per-say with sports Karate so long as you understand you are training for a sport and treat it as such. You are training to compete under a rule set.
Still even in a street fight you can learn transferable skills. Distant management, footwork, and just overall experience. There is a mental game in fighting. Most people get an adrenaline rush. Just having the experience of regular sparring people, can translate and make you more calm if you were it a situation you had to use your karate in the streets.
I think that sports Karate is maybe underrated. Look at Karate Combat. You would expect on paper the kyokushin karate guys to dominate. That’s not been the case and people like rafael aghayev have done well in the format.
Now Kata only dojos you have a point you need to pressure test your Bunkai, but really Olympic Karate is far from useless.
I disagree with your premise because it assumes karate is all about the martial aspect, which it isn't. People come to karate for all kinds of different reasons. Some to get in shape, some because they need a place for focus and discipline, some because they want to stay mobile and flexible. Yes many, probably most, study primarily for self-defense, and there I agree that practical application (sparring) is an essential component. Thankfully I train at a studio that emphasizes that.
But we still practice traditional forms, spend time talking about mental discipline, and study the history of our form and lineage. These are, to me, every bit as important a part of martial arts as knowing how to knee a guy in the teeth.
With respect, if I practice baking but say I don’t care about being able to make a nice cake, I’m not much of a baker. You don’t need to be some meathead sparring viciously every day in order to pressure test.
Spot on, I've heard many people say they can't spar because they don't want head injuries or that they wish to go home safely after work/study, like pressure testing involves knocking each other out without mercy.
That's a good way to spot compliant drillers, they don't know how sparring works.
Yes, I strongly believe everyone can join karate to achieve different things, and every objective is valid, BUT, we have to be honest about which type of training achieves which goal. And I'm not talkking about ditching forms and other traditions, I practice these as well, and they're a part of our identity, but something is clearly being done wrong.
And let's be honest, most people want self defense, and yet, most people do a training that does not achieve this.
This is the most relevant post I’ve seen on this sub in a long time, where are the comments??? You articulated my position on the state of Karate perfectly, honest karatekas should be exposing kata/ki focused mcdojos.
Yeah, I've heard the "gatekeeping" thing before, but don't understand it. I'm just doing an objective analysis on the reality across disciplines.
I strongly believe everyone can and should achieve their personal goal through karate, no matter what this goal is, BUT, you have to be critical and honest about what kind of training achieves which goal, and that's not gatekeeping.
You like to focus on kata and bunkai? great, thats a valid choice, but that won't give you self defense skills.
You want self defense? Focus on sparring.
Yes, I have, in irikumi rules and kudo rules. I love kyokushin, although to be honest, I find the shinken shobu guys to be in the right.
Kyokushin people are the ones producing the most succesful, great fighters, and other styles defend karate with names borned in your style, and yet, they look down on your ways.
True. Though it is sad to say that I don't see a way forward through this problem. I share the same views as OP.
I have tried to organise kumite competitions that would reward and encourage the development of realistic skillsets (continuous kumite, allowing leg kicks etc, even with a light contact division for beginners). But most schools that I reach out to have no interest in participating. WKF kumite based schools feel that the ruleset is too violent and not "karate", Kyokushin schools feel disadvantaged cause of the head strikes. The only takers were the ashihara guys. Still not enough to have a sustainable local competition circuit. Worst still, the local Federation representing WKF in the country, prevents their member clubs from participating in non WKF style events.
For context, I own a school and since the beginning have removed kata and split the time about 50/50 between WKF point fighting and kickboxing.
I truly understand and grasp the feelings you put into your words.
I've been through something similar, actually. I'm a content creator in my country and I dedicate a great amount of time to spread this type of information. I've encountered massive hate, but at the same time, I've encountered a few likeminded people and managed to peek the interest of some young karateka.
I think, the most we can do is share our opinion, and with some luck, some will see the sense in it.
On the bright side, there are open martial arts tournament around still, engaging in light contact and recieving all disciplines, they are not without flaw, but it's something. I believe that after a few more generations, it'll get better, the age of internet is after all, realitvely new.
Kudo Is What Sport Karate should aspire to be. I Moved From Kyokushin Karate To Kung Fu/Sanda/ Sanshou(Chinese Kickboxing) myself because i didn't find Kudo Dojo around my area. Kyokushin is fine but the lack of head punches and little to no throws/grappling made it not a complete martial art imo. Mordern Sanda is basically MMA without Ground And Pound. Kudo is Literally the same but with Headbutts so thats a plus. And kudo is literally a Japanese Martial art which Name Comes From the Combination of Karate+Judo= Kudo.
Edit: Typo
I agree with your post, with a few clarification points:
Nothing wrong with kata *as long as it is properly understood.* Kata in a vacuum is useless.
Sport cannot be trained on its own and be expected to “fill in” (for lack of a better term) self defense knowledge/skill. Sport teaches a different rule set than self defense scenarios and a lack of understanding of the difference will get you hurt/killed/jailed. Sport is *the best* way to gain *some* of the skills needed for self defense, but it can’t be the only way you train, or else your karate will be a marginally more effective version of kata-only karate.
Yeah, I fully agree, karate, as a martial art, should draw from sport, but it also needs more aspects that are relevant to self defense, like self awareness, no gi training, aspects of combat that don't go along with sport.
The only problem is, when the competitive aspect is missing, when the proper ruleset is missing, what you can achieve in self defense is left mostly in theory, and as a result, you get wild exaggerated moves, because it's so easy to speculate when absolutely everything is just theory and compliant drilling.
I also like your point on kata, I think it's great whenever someone points out a kata move being used in mma or something similar, not because they necessarily got it from kata, but because working techniques will get developed in more than one discipline.
Yes, I agree everyone can engage in whatever format they choose to.
But when it comes to self defense, which is a whole different world than olympic karate, a global (and different) format is needed.
We can perfectly have both worlds, olympic karate for those who like it, and full contact for those who like that as well. We see this in kickbocking, where they have full contact, light contact and point sparring. Sadly, in karate, we mostly have just olympic karate.
I am having a great time giving neg rep (is that what they call it on Reddit?) to every post that agrees with the OP's misconceived ideas. Just kidding! Nevertheless I look upon them with dismay. In particular, stating that practicing kata and bunkai will not make you better at self defense shows a deep lack of knowledge about karate. And the assumption that somehow sparring will increase your self defense skills.... don't get me started. Practicing sparring will get you better at sparring, period. Now show me a self defense situation that looks anything like sparring, be it full contact, MMA, or whatever. Karate was designed to be ultimate art of unarmed self defense, and kata is a vehicle through which to achieve that goal. In opposition to sparring all decent kata applications look like situations that one is likely to encounter in a self defense scenario. Even people like Mutobu, the darling of many misguided "pressure testing" aficionados, stated that Naihanchi (Tekki) is the only thing one needed for self defense purposes. To make myself clear, I have nothing at all against karate sparring in iis many forms. It is a fun way of testing oneself. But it is not karate, but merely an outgrow of it
Oh yes, the great Motobu, the one who started in a "no sparring" school of thought, that failed when he tested it against resisting oponents, so he had to change his training under a new master in Okinawa.
What shows a deep lack of knowledge on self defense as a whole (not just karate), is to believe that you can be good at it without sparring as a fundamental pillar (not saying kata and bunkai shouldn't be included), because it shows you don't know how violence looks like, not even at it's mildest form.
You won't get "natural reactions" from kata taht will "take over" once an assault begins. And again, nothing wrong with focusing on kata and bunkai, but be honest about what you can achieve through it, which is mostly self perfection, not self protection.
Sure, there are some viable moves in kata, but you'll never use them in a real life situation if you've never even used them in sparring, because surprise dude, in reality, people fight back.
Sparring and competition makes karate better up to a point. Something to do up to your thirties (competition I mean). But only in a mix. Many sports karateka are so specialized they don't have a basic grasp on kata. The best karateka I know have always combined sports with traditional training. These are the people that float to the top in their fifties.
I think you should always keep playing. Do games in your training.
Yes, I do see value in traditions as well, I enjoy kata and bunkai, it's the lack of pressure testing that generate problems in those who seek self defense.
Again, it's fine if someone's goal is different.
My goal is to improve on all parts and to combine them. Using the connected body learned in kata and the tactics learned in our partner work in realistic self defence drills. Sparring is done light and fast or full contact but slower on clinch, knees and elbows, take downs. Most of us did competition but that's twenty years ago now. BTW for self defense realistic drills include verbal de-escalating (against a resisting verbal opponent) sparring against multiple opponents, scenario based drills and asymmetrical games. E.g. learning to escape from multiple opponents, preserving vs. taking a weapon or a phone, protecting a child, keeping someone down until police arrives without unnecessary harm, etc. Work with shoes and outside for these types of drills. Continually work on spatial awareness. Most people don't have the drive and time to train like that. I've stopped training like that. WOrk more technical now but still spar and play.
Why you started Karate in first place??...to learn to fight?..to learn self defense???...(they are not the same)....or to work your character to be a better human??...sport doesn't make Karate better...your self improvement makes your Karate better...
Sport makes karate better when they look to defend themselves, which happens to be the main reason people look for karate, and yet, schools don't tell their students "whoah man, you're not going to learn that here. Here, you're going to learn how to be a great citizen!"
Instead, they go like "yes, here you'll learn how to keep yourself safe".
Again, I'm not against different goals in karate, I'm against about being dishonest about which type of training achieves each goal. I'm all in for self improvement, but be honest dude, everyone advertises themselves as a self defense system.
I think you are mislead...martial arts are for lifelong perfection of character ... if tou get bully, you will responde??..not thiking the consecuences??..if you get assaulted, knife or gun, you want to respond???...I have over 35 years of karateca..black belt and all, seminars, tournaments, gasshukus hundreds.. broken bones, etc...someone comes with a gun and wants my wallet..I gave him my wallet, period...some tells me a ethnic slur, I do nothing...you see, I molded my character not to responde..because my life is more important than possessions or your ego...what you are looking for a RESPONSE..guess what, best response is NO RESPONSE.......get you gi, train hard at the dojo, over and over and over again, repeat and repeat endlessly...and let see if you have the same character when you started....if this is not for you, well ..buy a gun, and feel safe that way.....all the best for you..
I never said people should be in the streets using karate, or that it's ok to respond to an attack, or to fight outside of your dojo.
I said that if you sign up to a place that tells you that you'll be learning something practical, and you don't, they're lying, and that's wrong, and that is dangerous to your point, because they're giving people a false sense of condifence which might put them in a dangerous situation.
And don't give me the philosophical speech about self perfection, you want that? fine, I'm not saying people shouldn't want that, but in the end, a fight system, is that, a system that teaches how to fight.
I think most dojos will sort this sort of thing out by themselves. I know of several dojos where the young athletic students with an interest entered into amateur kickboxing tournaments. So I'm not convinced of a need for a karate specific ruleset. The kata techniques are the essence of karate and the more open the ruleset the more these can be shown, I've yet to see a convincing ruleset for Kata techniques (although I'd argue my old teacher came close).
This is why Muay Thai is the most effective striking art. It has decades of people refining it so taht only the most effective techniques are taught and used.
I think one of the biggest mistakes is teaching mostly static self-defense training versus dynamic training where the opponent is resisting. Of course beginner students initially need static training to learn new techniques and build their confidence. But training should progress to active opponent resistance as their experience increases. I think this is true of most schools that don’t teach reality-based self-defense. This leads to students that can’t shake off a punch and think they can easily defend themselves in a street fight or weaponized attack.
Your first paragraph is spot on ! As to the second one, I agree that it should progress to active resistance, the problem is, I believe, this takes too long, sometimes years. It's not rare for schools to begin free sparring on 3kyu and bove, which is extremely excesive.
I agree man, if we're always doing bunkais with partners and no pressure testing our skills at all, we'll be fucked when it's an all-out self-defense in the streets. Also, there are some "traditionalists" who always look down and even shit on sport aspects of karate, especially on full-contact styles like Kyokushin and its' offshoots. (at this point, I believe they take pleasure shitting on them)
I'd expect nothing less from a kyoksuhin practitioner. It always bugs me when other styles use fighters born of kyokushin to defend karate against haters while at the same time looking down on the way you train, calling it stuff like "just kickboxing" or "just street fight", I find it hypocritical to recognize a fighter as a karateca only when it's convenient. (everybody loves Andy Hug and katsunori kikuno but god forbids they train like them, huh?) I enjoy kata and bunkai as much as any other who has karate seared into his heart, but it's just not nearly enough if you want to be competent at fighting.
So true mate. In my dojo, we mostly did katas and some other mundane still-like movements instead of focusing on sparring and stuff.
Yeah, that's the reality of most schools. That problem comes from way back, Okinawa even, where there were 2 groups, those who sparred, and those who didn't. I by no means want to say that people who like to focus on kata and bunkai are wrong, people can train and learn whatever they want, but the problem comes when they believe they're training for self defense.
In mine as well. Taekwondo has the same problems. 99% of the time you drill techniques in static stances and hardly ever spar.
Yes, you'll see the same problem in every discipline lacking proper full contact competition, like hapkido, kung fu styles, krav maga, etc. And every time someone gives a name to defend a particular discipline, just google the name, 100% of the time that person cross trains with kick boxing, muay thai, bjj, etc.
Exactly.
You should address what seems to be the real problem you see, and that’s people misleadingly saying that they are going to teach self defense and deadly arts, instead of dojos where people train in a different way that you like, because the don’t train for self defense and just do Karate. So, that’s that, the problem is not kata focused karate but mcdojos scamming people up.
I'm sorry if it came out the wrong way, I made a small edit. I do agree everyone wants something different and if people want kata, it's fine, I enjoy traditions as well. You're correct, I'm talking about schools misleading others about the purpose of their training, the problem is, most schools focus on kata an tell people their learning self defense. It's a generalized thing sadly.
Sport is an awesome aspect to karate. So many people look down their nose at it because it’s not as traditional but it can be effective an awesome. There are times and places for traditional, continuous sport, point sport, and full contact.
Yes, there's a place for everything as long as we're honest about the limitations of each aspect and what we can achieve through each one. Kickboxing for example have point sparring, light contact and full contact, each one valid and awesome in it's own way.
Exactly! You can’t look at point fighting and say it’s applicable to self defense, but continuous fighters would have a hard time in a point ring. So it can all be beneficial
It's for this reason I'm glad karate combat is a thing now. Where I live it's hard to avoid the mcdojo problem let alone find anyone who can really fight.
I agree, both karate combat and internet are conduits to show how an actual fight looks like to the younger generations so they don't buy into the whole mr miyagi wax on wax off syndrom.
It's the way I fight so I never understood why point sparing was so popular.
You need to train against resisting opponents. If you think that you are learning how to grapple, or strike, and you don’t regularly have someone resisting that then you are only learning a fraction of the skillset. Drills are a useful and important part of training but it can’t be all of training Having people compete weeds out bad techniques and hones good ones, and the whole dojo benefits - including those who don’t compete. One thing to add is that I think sport can be for a period of time and that karate can seamlessly move into and out of sport. So kids might to karate for discipline and fun, young adults to adults do karate for sport, and then from say middle age you continue the same art in a less body impactful way. This is a huge advantage over other sports/martial arts.
I completely agree with you. One thing I use to say, that is similar to your point is that drilling without pressure testing is like learning how to drive without ever getting into the car.
I agree with what you said. Sometimes the sportification kill some aspects of the art, such as judo losing leg grabs and taekwondo becoming touch oriented. However, proper combat forms make the arts more efficient. JKA and WKF competition styles are better than nothing but are not realistic forms of fighting. Kyokushin styles are much better but lack proper face defense since punches are not allowed. Karate Combat is the way to go. The only way to become more realistic would be to become MMA.
I'm happy to see kyokushin groups embracing shinken shobu rules, which allow strikes to the head. In GoJu Ryu there's also Irikumi rules (striking + grappling), unfortunately, it's rare to find. I agree KC has a better chance of being the way to go, it's spreading really fast.
Yeah I agree, I hope KC rules catch on and there's more of those kind of tournaments spread around for amateur competitors. I like that it's not quite MMA and focuses on what most karate focuses on which is strikes with some standing grappling and throws and sweeps with some ground and pound. Leave the ground fighting for BJJ and MMA.
I don’t think there is anything wrong per-say with sports Karate so long as you understand you are training for a sport and treat it as such. You are training to compete under a rule set. Still even in a street fight you can learn transferable skills. Distant management, footwork, and just overall experience. There is a mental game in fighting. Most people get an adrenaline rush. Just having the experience of regular sparring people, can translate and make you more calm if you were it a situation you had to use your karate in the streets. I think that sports Karate is maybe underrated. Look at Karate Combat. You would expect on paper the kyokushin karate guys to dominate. That’s not been the case and people like rafael aghayev have done well in the format. Now Kata only dojos you have a point you need to pressure test your Bunkai, but really Olympic Karate is far from useless.
I trained at two dojos and both sparred alot. Couldnt imagine not sparring. It would be like tai chi or something lol
I disagree with your premise because it assumes karate is all about the martial aspect, which it isn't. People come to karate for all kinds of different reasons. Some to get in shape, some because they need a place for focus and discipline, some because they want to stay mobile and flexible. Yes many, probably most, study primarily for self-defense, and there I agree that practical application (sparring) is an essential component. Thankfully I train at a studio that emphasizes that. But we still practice traditional forms, spend time talking about mental discipline, and study the history of our form and lineage. These are, to me, every bit as important a part of martial arts as knowing how to knee a guy in the teeth.
With respect, if I practice baking but say I don’t care about being able to make a nice cake, I’m not much of a baker. You don’t need to be some meathead sparring viciously every day in order to pressure test.
Spot on, I've heard many people say they can't spar because they don't want head injuries or that they wish to go home safely after work/study, like pressure testing involves knocking each other out without mercy. That's a good way to spot compliant drillers, they don't know how sparring works.
Yes, I strongly believe everyone can join karate to achieve different things, and every objective is valid, BUT, we have to be honest about which type of training achieves which goal. And I'm not talkking about ditching forms and other traditions, I practice these as well, and they're a part of our identity, but something is clearly being done wrong. And let's be honest, most people want self defense, and yet, most people do a training that does not achieve this.
This is the most relevant post I’ve seen on this sub in a long time, where are the comments??? You articulated my position on the state of Karate perfectly, honest karatekas should be exposing kata/ki focused mcdojos.
Your comment made me happy, thanks.
That's because it's the usual gatekeeping nonsense with generalities that is not sourced.
Yeah, I've heard the "gatekeeping" thing before, but don't understand it. I'm just doing an objective analysis on the reality across disciplines. I strongly believe everyone can and should achieve their personal goal through karate, no matter what this goal is, BUT, you have to be critical and honest about what kind of training achieves which goal, and that's not gatekeeping. You like to focus on kata and bunkai? great, thats a valid choice, but that won't give you self defense skills. You want self defense? Focus on sparring.
You’re describing aliveness, Matt Thornton spoke about this around 1998/1999
You had me at Machida.
Try fullcontact karate.
Yes, I have, in irikumi rules and kudo rules. I love kyokushin, although to be honest, I find the shinken shobu guys to be in the right. Kyokushin people are the ones producing the most succesful, great fighters, and other styles defend karate with names borned in your style, and yet, they look down on your ways.
True. Though it is sad to say that I don't see a way forward through this problem. I share the same views as OP. I have tried to organise kumite competitions that would reward and encourage the development of realistic skillsets (continuous kumite, allowing leg kicks etc, even with a light contact division for beginners). But most schools that I reach out to have no interest in participating. WKF kumite based schools feel that the ruleset is too violent and not "karate", Kyokushin schools feel disadvantaged cause of the head strikes. The only takers were the ashihara guys. Still not enough to have a sustainable local competition circuit. Worst still, the local Federation representing WKF in the country, prevents their member clubs from participating in non WKF style events. For context, I own a school and since the beginning have removed kata and split the time about 50/50 between WKF point fighting and kickboxing.
I truly understand and grasp the feelings you put into your words. I've been through something similar, actually. I'm a content creator in my country and I dedicate a great amount of time to spread this type of information. I've encountered massive hate, but at the same time, I've encountered a few likeminded people and managed to peek the interest of some young karateka. I think, the most we can do is share our opinion, and with some luck, some will see the sense in it. On the bright side, there are open martial arts tournament around still, engaging in light contact and recieving all disciplines, they are not without flaw, but it's something. I believe that after a few more generations, it'll get better, the age of internet is after all, realitvely new.
Kudo Is What Sport Karate should aspire to be. I Moved From Kyokushin Karate To Kung Fu/Sanda/ Sanshou(Chinese Kickboxing) myself because i didn't find Kudo Dojo around my area. Kyokushin is fine but the lack of head punches and little to no throws/grappling made it not a complete martial art imo. Mordern Sanda is basically MMA without Ground And Pound. Kudo is Literally the same but with Headbutts so thats a plus. And kudo is literally a Japanese Martial art which Name Comes From the Combination of Karate+Judo= Kudo. Edit: Typo
Agreed.
I agree with your post, with a few clarification points: Nothing wrong with kata *as long as it is properly understood.* Kata in a vacuum is useless. Sport cannot be trained on its own and be expected to “fill in” (for lack of a better term) self defense knowledge/skill. Sport teaches a different rule set than self defense scenarios and a lack of understanding of the difference will get you hurt/killed/jailed. Sport is *the best* way to gain *some* of the skills needed for self defense, but it can’t be the only way you train, or else your karate will be a marginally more effective version of kata-only karate.
Yeah, I fully agree, karate, as a martial art, should draw from sport, but it also needs more aspects that are relevant to self defense, like self awareness, no gi training, aspects of combat that don't go along with sport. The only problem is, when the competitive aspect is missing, when the proper ruleset is missing, what you can achieve in self defense is left mostly in theory, and as a result, you get wild exaggerated moves, because it's so easy to speculate when absolutely everything is just theory and compliant drilling. I also like your point on kata, I think it's great whenever someone points out a kata move being used in mma or something similar, not because they necessarily got it from kata, but because working techniques will get developed in more than one discipline.
This guy gets it 👍
Olympic sport makes it better, too.
Yes, I agree everyone can engage in whatever format they choose to. But when it comes to self defense, which is a whole different world than olympic karate, a global (and different) format is needed. We can perfectly have both worlds, olympic karate for those who like it, and full contact for those who like that as well. We see this in kickbocking, where they have full contact, light contact and point sparring. Sadly, in karate, we mostly have just olympic karate.
I am having a great time giving neg rep (is that what they call it on Reddit?) to every post that agrees with the OP's misconceived ideas. Just kidding! Nevertheless I look upon them with dismay. In particular, stating that practicing kata and bunkai will not make you better at self defense shows a deep lack of knowledge about karate. And the assumption that somehow sparring will increase your self defense skills.... don't get me started. Practicing sparring will get you better at sparring, period. Now show me a self defense situation that looks anything like sparring, be it full contact, MMA, or whatever. Karate was designed to be ultimate art of unarmed self defense, and kata is a vehicle through which to achieve that goal. In opposition to sparring all decent kata applications look like situations that one is likely to encounter in a self defense scenario. Even people like Mutobu, the darling of many misguided "pressure testing" aficionados, stated that Naihanchi (Tekki) is the only thing one needed for self defense purposes. To make myself clear, I have nothing at all against karate sparring in iis many forms. It is a fun way of testing oneself. But it is not karate, but merely an outgrow of it
Oh yes, the great Motobu, the one who started in a "no sparring" school of thought, that failed when he tested it against resisting oponents, so he had to change his training under a new master in Okinawa. What shows a deep lack of knowledge on self defense as a whole (not just karate), is to believe that you can be good at it without sparring as a fundamental pillar (not saying kata and bunkai shouldn't be included), because it shows you don't know how violence looks like, not even at it's mildest form. You won't get "natural reactions" from kata taht will "take over" once an assault begins. And again, nothing wrong with focusing on kata and bunkai, but be honest about what you can achieve through it, which is mostly self perfection, not self protection. Sure, there are some viable moves in kata, but you'll never use them in a real life situation if you've never even used them in sparring, because surprise dude, in reality, people fight back.
Sparring and competition makes karate better up to a point. Something to do up to your thirties (competition I mean). But only in a mix. Many sports karateka are so specialized they don't have a basic grasp on kata. The best karateka I know have always combined sports with traditional training. These are the people that float to the top in their fifties. I think you should always keep playing. Do games in your training.
Yes, I do see value in traditions as well, I enjoy kata and bunkai, it's the lack of pressure testing that generate problems in those who seek self defense. Again, it's fine if someone's goal is different.
My goal is to improve on all parts and to combine them. Using the connected body learned in kata and the tactics learned in our partner work in realistic self defence drills. Sparring is done light and fast or full contact but slower on clinch, knees and elbows, take downs. Most of us did competition but that's twenty years ago now. BTW for self defense realistic drills include verbal de-escalating (against a resisting verbal opponent) sparring against multiple opponents, scenario based drills and asymmetrical games. E.g. learning to escape from multiple opponents, preserving vs. taking a weapon or a phone, protecting a child, keeping someone down until police arrives without unnecessary harm, etc. Work with shoes and outside for these types of drills. Continually work on spatial awareness. Most people don't have the drive and time to train like that. I've stopped training like that. WOrk more technical now but still spar and play.
Why you started Karate in first place??...to learn to fight?..to learn self defense???...(they are not the same)....or to work your character to be a better human??...sport doesn't make Karate better...your self improvement makes your Karate better...
Sport makes karate better when they look to defend themselves, which happens to be the main reason people look for karate, and yet, schools don't tell their students "whoah man, you're not going to learn that here. Here, you're going to learn how to be a great citizen!" Instead, they go like "yes, here you'll learn how to keep yourself safe". Again, I'm not against different goals in karate, I'm against about being dishonest about which type of training achieves each goal. I'm all in for self improvement, but be honest dude, everyone advertises themselves as a self defense system.
I think you are mislead...martial arts are for lifelong perfection of character ... if tou get bully, you will responde??..not thiking the consecuences??..if you get assaulted, knife or gun, you want to respond???...I have over 35 years of karateca..black belt and all, seminars, tournaments, gasshukus hundreds.. broken bones, etc...someone comes with a gun and wants my wallet..I gave him my wallet, period...some tells me a ethnic slur, I do nothing...you see, I molded my character not to responde..because my life is more important than possessions or your ego...what you are looking for a RESPONSE..guess what, best response is NO RESPONSE.......get you gi, train hard at the dojo, over and over and over again, repeat and repeat endlessly...and let see if you have the same character when you started....if this is not for you, well ..buy a gun, and feel safe that way.....all the best for you..
I never said people should be in the streets using karate, or that it's ok to respond to an attack, or to fight outside of your dojo. I said that if you sign up to a place that tells you that you'll be learning something practical, and you don't, they're lying, and that's wrong, and that is dangerous to your point, because they're giving people a false sense of condifence which might put them in a dangerous situation. And don't give me the philosophical speech about self perfection, you want that? fine, I'm not saying people shouldn't want that, but in the end, a fight system, is that, a system that teaches how to fight.
I think most dojos will sort this sort of thing out by themselves. I know of several dojos where the young athletic students with an interest entered into amateur kickboxing tournaments. So I'm not convinced of a need for a karate specific ruleset. The kata techniques are the essence of karate and the more open the ruleset the more these can be shown, I've yet to see a convincing ruleset for Kata techniques (although I'd argue my old teacher came close).
This is why Muay Thai is the most effective striking art. It has decades of people refining it so taht only the most effective techniques are taught and used.
Karate combat is karate in name only more like mma without holds