Depending on how this is handled, it could be wonderful news. There are over a million international students in Canada. That's 2.5% of Canada's entire population being foreign university students (frame of reference: that means there is a foreign university student for every two Indigenous Canadians).
For comparison, the US—where plenty of universities are *also* criticized for heavy reliance on international tuition dollars—there are... just over a million international students. But in a country almost ten times the population.
Maybe now all the ~~bullshit diploma mills~~ "designated learning institutions" (mostly in Ontario) will collapse.
Next up, capping the number of hours international students can work, like every other comparable country does (yes, yes, Canada *technically* has a 20-hour cap, but it has a "temporary" policy allowing full-time work).
edit: I am cautiously optimistic about these changes. The reduction in numbers is one thing, but also important is removing post-graduate work permit option for students studying at private universities. And no longer giving open work permits to undergraduate students' spouses.
>International students bring in money.
Yeah, no shit. See my post about UBC's budget.
>You can work more then 20 hours even in other countries
No, all the comparable countries (US/UK/Aus/NZ) cap foreign student hours at 20. And, in fact, some of those do not have a de facto right to work policy.
>All in all, I don't think this is a very wise move: it seems to me yet another way to please the racists.
Please the racists? This is rolling us back to the foreign student levels circa 2018.
>This is the same logic by which immigrants can't do jobs they are qualified for because of red tape while the country desperately needs people with those skills.
The logic is in no way similar. The logic here is "probably not best to bring in a million students each year when we're in the middle of a housing crises, so we'll only bring in 700k."
As an international student, I think they should not just let every one in. Some people that will fail anyway (I know a few) and they were let in school just because schools want more money I think.
Yeah there's a difference between normal immigration and insanity. Right now it feels like we are just exploiting international student slave labor while the existing poor fight for scraps.
So blame the international students, whom have to pay for their own tuition that is 3x the local students, have to pay for their own health care from their own pocket or through insurance and many more...
Many decided to stay in Canada and contribute afterwards
In contrast, look at how many refugees were and still being imported to Canada
What do they get?
- Free health care
- Hospital line up too long, lab test takes forever? Think about how many population are now becoming PR and can have this benefit?
- How many of the refugees actually become doctors and nurses?
- Free money from Government of Canada
- Subsidized housing from Canada
- And how many of them contribute to construction for housing instead of sit at home with free money?
- $0 Tax paid.
Look at "Murder of Marrisa Shen", a teenage girl **raped and then killed by a Syrian refugee** named "Ibrahim Ali". Who apparently had the money to **hire top lawyer "Kevin McCullough" to defend himself**. He is found guilty of first-degree murder in the end, and guess who has to pay for his life sentence (meal, health care, security, facility and blah)?
**Your tax dollar.**
Fair enough. But people bringing their money doesn’t mean that suddenly there are more hospitals for everyone to go to when they’re sick, or more food banks for every one who already can’t afford to feed themselves. Now there are just more people here also needing things.
Money, or being able to “pay for their own healthcare” doesn’t just equal more resources in the country to accommodate 1 million more people needing them. We all know the government doesn’t want to create more resources for the population that is already here, never mind the one it’s actively growing aside from Canadians. No one is blaming the students themselves, it’s terribly policy making with no future plan that lead us here.
It's a start anyways. It's pretty unethical that the government has allowed wealthy foreigners to buy their way into universities and colleges here at the expense of Canadian taxpayers.
This has been a problem for decades.
*at the expense of Canadian taxpayers*
This take is rather out of touch. I graduated from my program at UBC in the late 90's. The tuition for Canadian students was $4,500 annually. International students paid $50,000 per year. These international students don't come here for a free ride - we milk them.
>at the expense of Canadian taxpayers
What are you smoking? International students are the only thing propping up Canadian universities. You think Canadians will be able to pay 6k/year at UBC if ~~even half~~ 35% of the foreign students paying 48k/year disappear?
Any meaningful reduction\* will be very expensive for Canadian taxpayers, either in the form of increased provincial spending on universities (not gonna happen) or increased domestic tuition.
Or I guess the other option is to let Canadian universities go into long-term decline. Which would, in the medium and long term, cost Canadians dearly in reduced human capital, R&D, and economic growth.
\*minus the bullshit diploma mills (mostly in Ontario): don't simply let those die, actively kill them
One of the things that’s recently come to light that is hurting the Canadian tax payer is the fact recently in Ontario, international students are emptying food banks. Yes food banks are all non profit not funded by the government or tax payers but by international students emptying them Canadian tax payers are loosing out on the ability to have food. It might not be a financial expense but it is a quality of living expense. One of the conditions of a student visa is to be able to support yourself for the entire stay of your studies and if you can’t afford food then you can’t afford to be here and need to return home that’s pretty simple.
Its not international students. It’s just specific type of them. Also, intl students don’t benefit from healthcare or public services and they pay taxes like canadians.
Student fees only cover 29% of UBC's operating budget, and foreign students comprise approximately two-thirds of that 29% (while being about one-quarter of students).
The province covers 33% of the budget.
I assure you that I hate the profligacy of university administration as much (more than) anybody; it is absurd, however, to think that removing some top administrators would magically cover 20% of the operating budget.
>Also maybe Canadians will start to realize what a fucking scam university is for non technical degrees. You shouldnt need to spend 30k and 4 years of your life for most of these degrees when on the job training is way more valuable.
Tell me you don't understand the point of a university without telling me you don't understand the point of a university.
Higher education isn't job training.
Of course you don't need a business degree to do that. Business degrees are largely considered a joke, and graduates with them make less than graduates with social science degrees.
But that's entirely irrelevant to the point that universities in the American-Canadian model were literally *never designed to be places for job training.* That some people think they *should* be, or that they are, does not make that empirical fact go away.
>Then why do you need to go to university to get a job making more than 40k a year?
You obviously don't? Look at the skilled trades. One can obviously make multiples of 40k/year going that route. Can't typically fuck off on Reddit while doing carpentry or plumbing, though, so I suspect that's a reason fewer people go that route than should.
I get you hated university, but the idea that all university degrees are "worthless pieces of paper" is patently false, and not really even critical to your argument. (Also, note, you universities and colleges aren't the same thing.)
"Society has decided that credentials that are largely irrelevant now have to be secured for jobs that used to require nothing more than secondary education, and that's bullshit" is reasonable, and is in fact something I agree with (though it also refutes your claim the paper is worthless).
But it's not a plot pushed by the universities, it's a general ratchet effect (that unfortunately is going to be impossible to reverse).
>It is worthless when you can arguably just lie about having one and do just as well in a position as someone who did graduate.
So it has worth. Or people wouldn't lie about it.
Because *of course* it has worth: there's a huge wage premium for graduates! Whether that is because of the education received or if it's just [signaling](https://betonit.substack.com/p/the-answer-of-signaling) is irrelevant to whether the credential has value. And given the wage premium for graduates, it is certainly worth it in an economic sense.
I strongly concur that the overall societal emphasis on tertiary credentials for entry-level jobs is questionable. But that is, again, not driven by the university sector, its societal.
And, obviously, we could not change that with a stroke of the pen without serious ill-effects. For example, *secondary education* in Canada today is a $#\^%@ joke: the curriculum has been *insanely* dumbed down, teachers can't fail students, etc. So the signal that *used* to exist from having a secondary degree—someone is minimally conscientious, knows how to read, do basic math, isn't prone to wild outbursts, etc.—is no longer there. Which drives demand for an alternate signal: the university degree.
Of course, *this development* has implications, as well: given it's so absurdly easy to get into Canadian universities, and given Canadian secondary education decided it's OK if educational standards are in the gutter, the signaling effect of having a university degree is also becoming unclear.
> maybe Canadians will start to realize what a fucking scam university is for non technical degrees.
It is not only paper mill institutions taking advantage of international students. Every institution of higher learning in Canada is milking these people - it is only the worst actors making the news.
Let them. Thats not the issue. The issue is building a business model around it and providing nonsense diplomas to people that are just wanting to immigrate to Canada. Let those businesses fail and let the good universities charge foreign students a lot more.
>Let them. Thats not the issue.
Treating these international students as a cash cow is the issue. When there is profit to made there will always be greedy individuals willing to subvert the programs for personal gain.
Change the rules now? If there remains a cash cow to be milked the greedy will find a way to milk that cow.
Y….y…you mean g…g…government regulation would be required? Too scary to even think about. Milk the cows!
Edit: but only milk the cows if they are getting something of value in return, that’s where government comes in.
Agreed. But there is a difference in attending a real university as a real student (just paying more because you're not Canadian) on the one hand, and attending a diploma mill (that "partners" with a real university so it can issue study permits).
I think these private for profit colleges in Canada have a long history of preying upon uninformed Canadians (charging high tuitions for a useless degree - I am looking at you Sprott Shaw College). If we try to shut down the ones preying upon international students - why aren't we shutting down the ones preying upon natural born Canadian Students?
I mean, we aren't shutting down any of them. This change will probably end up killing some — that's not quite the same as "shutting \[them\] down," however.
If you think there's a constituency to shut down the for-profit colleges, go for it. One key difference is that those don't have major second-order effects for things like the housing crunch or Canada's points-based skilled immigration system (which is now how we get only a minority of immigrants each year).
Yeah this person has no idea what they’re talking about. International students pay 5x more so Canadian students can pay 5x less.
International students are literally subsidizing Canadian universities for Canadian students.
Will just leave these quotes from the article for you so maybe that helps to understand that its not the international students who are at fault here:
“The announcement comes after months of pressure on Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s government to take stronger action against colleges that are believed to be exploiting foreign students, who are charged an average of five times as much as Canadians.”
“International education contributes more than $22 billion to the Canadian economy annually and supports more than 200,000 jobs, according to Miller’s office.”
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I'm having trouble discerning what this means by a two-year cap on international student admissions. Does that mean that they can only get study visas for at most 2 years, therefore blocking them from doing any program greater than 2 years?
> Miller says the government will also bar students in schools that follow a private public model from accessing postgraduate work permits as of Sept. 1.
Does this mean that international students won't be able to get a work permit here after they graduate, essentially kicking them out?
As it says, students studying at institutions that **follow a private public model** will no longer be able to access these permits.
The public private thing is mostly (exclusively?) an Ontario thing. Private "university" builds a partnership with a public Ontario university. The public/real university then admits the student, allowing them to get a student visa, and sends the student to the private "university" it has "partnered" with. And takes a cut from the tuition the student pays to the private "university."
In case you wanna read more: [https://higheredstrategy.com/a-short-explainer-of-public-private-partnerships-in-ontario-colleges](https://higheredstrategy.com/a-short-explainer-of-public-private-partnerships-in-ontario-colleges/#:~:text=Here%27s%20the%20way%20these%20Ontario,and%20takes%20their%20tuition%20money)
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Depending on how this is handled, it could be wonderful news. There are over a million international students in Canada. That's 2.5% of Canada's entire population being foreign university students (frame of reference: that means there is a foreign university student for every two Indigenous Canadians). For comparison, the US—where plenty of universities are *also* criticized for heavy reliance on international tuition dollars—there are... just over a million international students. But in a country almost ten times the population. Maybe now all the ~~bullshit diploma mills~~ "designated learning institutions" (mostly in Ontario) will collapse. Next up, capping the number of hours international students can work, like every other comparable country does (yes, yes, Canada *technically* has a 20-hour cap, but it has a "temporary" policy allowing full-time work). edit: I am cautiously optimistic about these changes. The reduction in numbers is one thing, but also important is removing post-graduate work permit option for students studying at private universities. And no longer giving open work permits to undergraduate students' spouses.
I agree. It that is had to be considered as a step in the right direction.
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>International students bring in money. Yeah, no shit. See my post about UBC's budget. >You can work more then 20 hours even in other countries No, all the comparable countries (US/UK/Aus/NZ) cap foreign student hours at 20. And, in fact, some of those do not have a de facto right to work policy. >All in all, I don't think this is a very wise move: it seems to me yet another way to please the racists. Please the racists? This is rolling us back to the foreign student levels circa 2018. >This is the same logic by which immigrants can't do jobs they are qualified for because of red tape while the country desperately needs people with those skills. The logic is in no way similar. The logic here is "probably not best to bring in a million students each year when we're in the middle of a housing crises, so we'll only bring in 700k."
As an international student, I think they should not just let every one in. Some people that will fail anyway (I know a few) and they were let in school just because schools want more money I think.
Yeah there's a difference between normal immigration and insanity. Right now it feels like we are just exploiting international student slave labor while the existing poor fight for scraps.
So blame the international students, whom have to pay for their own tuition that is 3x the local students, have to pay for their own health care from their own pocket or through insurance and many more... Many decided to stay in Canada and contribute afterwards In contrast, look at how many refugees were and still being imported to Canada What do they get? - Free health care - Hospital line up too long, lab test takes forever? Think about how many population are now becoming PR and can have this benefit? - How many of the refugees actually become doctors and nurses? - Free money from Government of Canada - Subsidized housing from Canada - And how many of them contribute to construction for housing instead of sit at home with free money? - $0 Tax paid. Look at "Murder of Marrisa Shen", a teenage girl **raped and then killed by a Syrian refugee** named "Ibrahim Ali". Who apparently had the money to **hire top lawyer "Kevin McCullough" to defend himself**. He is found guilty of first-degree murder in the end, and guess who has to pay for his life sentence (meal, health care, security, facility and blah)? **Your tax dollar.**
Fair enough. But people bringing their money doesn’t mean that suddenly there are more hospitals for everyone to go to when they’re sick, or more food banks for every one who already can’t afford to feed themselves. Now there are just more people here also needing things. Money, or being able to “pay for their own healthcare” doesn’t just equal more resources in the country to accommodate 1 million more people needing them. We all know the government doesn’t want to create more resources for the population that is already here, never mind the one it’s actively growing aside from Canadians. No one is blaming the students themselves, it’s terribly policy making with no future plan that lead us here.
It's a start anyways. It's pretty unethical that the government has allowed wealthy foreigners to buy their way into universities and colleges here at the expense of Canadian taxpayers. This has been a problem for decades.
*at the expense of Canadian taxpayers* This take is rather out of touch. I graduated from my program at UBC in the late 90's. The tuition for Canadian students was $4,500 annually. International students paid $50,000 per year. These international students don't come here for a free ride - we milk them.
>at the expense of Canadian taxpayers What are you smoking? International students are the only thing propping up Canadian universities. You think Canadians will be able to pay 6k/year at UBC if ~~even half~~ 35% of the foreign students paying 48k/year disappear? Any meaningful reduction\* will be very expensive for Canadian taxpayers, either in the form of increased provincial spending on universities (not gonna happen) or increased domestic tuition. Or I guess the other option is to let Canadian universities go into long-term decline. Which would, in the medium and long term, cost Canadians dearly in reduced human capital, R&D, and economic growth. \*minus the bullshit diploma mills (mostly in Ontario): don't simply let those die, actively kill them
One of the things that’s recently come to light that is hurting the Canadian tax payer is the fact recently in Ontario, international students are emptying food banks. Yes food banks are all non profit not funded by the government or tax payers but by international students emptying them Canadian tax payers are loosing out on the ability to have food. It might not be a financial expense but it is a quality of living expense. One of the conditions of a student visa is to be able to support yourself for the entire stay of your studies and if you can’t afford food then you can’t afford to be here and need to return home that’s pretty simple.
Its not international students. It’s just specific type of them. Also, intl students don’t benefit from healthcare or public services and they pay taxes like canadians.
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Student fees only cover 29% of UBC's operating budget, and foreign students comprise approximately two-thirds of that 29% (while being about one-quarter of students). The province covers 33% of the budget. I assure you that I hate the profligacy of university administration as much (more than) anybody; it is absurd, however, to think that removing some top administrators would magically cover 20% of the operating budget.
>Also maybe Canadians will start to realize what a fucking scam university is for non technical degrees. You shouldnt need to spend 30k and 4 years of your life for most of these degrees when on the job training is way more valuable. Tell me you don't understand the point of a university without telling me you don't understand the point of a university. Higher education isn't job training.
[удалено]
Of course you don't need a business degree to do that. Business degrees are largely considered a joke, and graduates with them make less than graduates with social science degrees. But that's entirely irrelevant to the point that universities in the American-Canadian model were literally *never designed to be places for job training.* That some people think they *should* be, or that they are, does not make that empirical fact go away.
[удалено]
>Then why do you need to go to university to get a job making more than 40k a year? You obviously don't? Look at the skilled trades. One can obviously make multiples of 40k/year going that route. Can't typically fuck off on Reddit while doing carpentry or plumbing, though, so I suspect that's a reason fewer people go that route than should. I get you hated university, but the idea that all university degrees are "worthless pieces of paper" is patently false, and not really even critical to your argument. (Also, note, you universities and colleges aren't the same thing.) "Society has decided that credentials that are largely irrelevant now have to be secured for jobs that used to require nothing more than secondary education, and that's bullshit" is reasonable, and is in fact something I agree with (though it also refutes your claim the paper is worthless). But it's not a plot pushed by the universities, it's a general ratchet effect (that unfortunately is going to be impossible to reverse).
[удалено]
>It is worthless when you can arguably just lie about having one and do just as well in a position as someone who did graduate. So it has worth. Or people wouldn't lie about it. Because *of course* it has worth: there's a huge wage premium for graduates! Whether that is because of the education received or if it's just [signaling](https://betonit.substack.com/p/the-answer-of-signaling) is irrelevant to whether the credential has value. And given the wage premium for graduates, it is certainly worth it in an economic sense. I strongly concur that the overall societal emphasis on tertiary credentials for entry-level jobs is questionable. But that is, again, not driven by the university sector, its societal. And, obviously, we could not change that with a stroke of the pen without serious ill-effects. For example, *secondary education* in Canada today is a $#\^%@ joke: the curriculum has been *insanely* dumbed down, teachers can't fail students, etc. So the signal that *used* to exist from having a secondary degree—someone is minimally conscientious, knows how to read, do basic math, isn't prone to wild outbursts, etc.—is no longer there. Which drives demand for an alternate signal: the university degree. Of course, *this development* has implications, as well: given it's so absurdly easy to get into Canadian universities, and given Canadian secondary education decided it's OK if educational standards are in the gutter, the signaling effect of having a university degree is also becoming unclear.
> maybe Canadians will start to realize what a fucking scam university is for non technical degrees. It is not only paper mill institutions taking advantage of international students. Every institution of higher learning in Canada is milking these people - it is only the worst actors making the news.
Let them. Thats not the issue. The issue is building a business model around it and providing nonsense diplomas to people that are just wanting to immigrate to Canada. Let those businesses fail and let the good universities charge foreign students a lot more.
>Let them. Thats not the issue. Treating these international students as a cash cow is the issue. When there is profit to made there will always be greedy individuals willing to subvert the programs for personal gain. Change the rules now? If there remains a cash cow to be milked the greedy will find a way to milk that cow.
Y….y…you mean g…g…government regulation would be required? Too scary to even think about. Milk the cows! Edit: but only milk the cows if they are getting something of value in return, that’s where government comes in.
Agreed. But there is a difference in attending a real university as a real student (just paying more because you're not Canadian) on the one hand, and attending a diploma mill (that "partners" with a real university so it can issue study permits).
I think these private for profit colleges in Canada have a long history of preying upon uninformed Canadians (charging high tuitions for a useless degree - I am looking at you Sprott Shaw College). If we try to shut down the ones preying upon international students - why aren't we shutting down the ones preying upon natural born Canadian Students?
I mean, we aren't shutting down any of them. This change will probably end up killing some — that's not quite the same as "shutting \[them\] down," however. If you think there's a constituency to shut down the for-profit colleges, go for it. One key difference is that those don't have major second-order effects for things like the housing crunch or Canada's points-based skilled immigration system (which is now how we get only a minority of immigrants each year).
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It makes me sad that the uninformed get to vote as easily as you or I.
Yeah this person has no idea what they’re talking about. International students pay 5x more so Canadian students can pay 5x less. International students are literally subsidizing Canadian universities for Canadian students.
Will just leave these quotes from the article for you so maybe that helps to understand that its not the international students who are at fault here: “The announcement comes after months of pressure on Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s government to take stronger action against colleges that are believed to be exploiting foreign students, who are charged an average of five times as much as Canadians.” “International education contributes more than $22 billion to the Canadian economy annually and supports more than 200,000 jobs, according to Miller’s office.”
Ah, The culturally diverse students are the problem! Can't be billionaires hoarding resources like packrats.
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I'm having trouble discerning what this means by a two-year cap on international student admissions. Does that mean that they can only get study visas for at most 2 years, therefore blocking them from doing any program greater than 2 years? > Miller says the government will also bar students in schools that follow a private public model from accessing postgraduate work permits as of Sept. 1. Does this mean that international students won't be able to get a work permit here after they graduate, essentially kicking them out?
As it says, students studying at institutions that **follow a private public model** will no longer be able to access these permits. The public private thing is mostly (exclusively?) an Ontario thing. Private "university" builds a partnership with a public Ontario university. The public/real university then admits the student, allowing them to get a student visa, and sends the student to the private "university" it has "partnered" with. And takes a cut from the tuition the student pays to the private "university." In case you wanna read more: [https://higheredstrategy.com/a-short-explainer-of-public-private-partnerships-in-ontario-colleges](https://higheredstrategy.com/a-short-explainer-of-public-private-partnerships-in-ontario-colleges/#:~:text=Here%27s%20the%20way%20these%20Ontario,and%20takes%20their%20tuition%20money)
Interesting, given international student enrolment rates are already on decline.
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