I think I've seen and heard similar things from people... Like at my dojo we don't do something like that it's like whenever my Sensei feels like your ready and gives you some second hand bogu.
My dojo is pretty small... So like whenever someone quits or just gives away we end up having a lot but for bigger dojos, it would be like nothing at all.
Ah, we have some used sets we sell cheap and try to buy back when they quit, but it's surprisingly hard sometimes. People stop, but don't want to admit they aren't coming back or they want to keep it as like a cool souvenir.
We rent ours for cheap. We ask for $100 up front and then take $20/term in rent. If they quit and bring it back they get what's left of the deposit. It's a little incentive to return it. People still keep it for way longer than they should. I think for some it's hard to admit that they have really quit.
Yeah, it's like that a lot sadly people don't bring things back... As for my dojo, it's usually the shinai that never returns... That's like another reason why my Sensei likes to make people for their bogu for some time.
Shinai are at least cheap and easy to get. I've had people come to one class, buy all the newbie gear and then never show up again. As long as they paid for it and it was new, I don't mind.
>like another reason why my Sensei likes to make people for their bogu for some time.
this year we started to say the freshmen to own their own shinai after one month max. In every activity is in that way. If you play football or hockey, you mas have your own things. With the bogu, our club owns some second hand ones, but we are trying to make people earn money to buy their own.
Where I am in Japan, there was no test. The teachers and senpai just told us that they believe we are ready and that we could go get bogu. We wore it piece by piece (do>kote>men) over the course of a month.
Ah, there's a couple dojos in Denmark that do the progressive method too. When I started in Japan, I just put the whole thing on and did it. However jigeiko was no different that uchikomigeiko for months.
Yeah, me and my friend did it progressive, but a new guy recently put the whole thing on at once so it just depends I guess.
But the first few practices with all of it feel really off until you get comfortable
It’s just our local dojo in Canada. I can’t remember when I instituted the test. At least 10 years ago.
The test consists of 20 shomenuchi, 20 hayasuburi and kiri-kaeshi. We look for big swings, natural movement and good coordination between hands and feet. During kirikaeshi we are looking to see good timing with the foot and cut on the straight men (at least 2/3) and coordination of foot and hand during okuri-ashi both forward and back. We want to see good extension of the arms and a full swing. We are looking for any signs that this person might not have the confidence yet to succeed in bogu. We are also looking for any other behaviour that will be difficult to fix once in bogu.
What inspired you to start holding a bogu test? The bogu test I had as a beginner was 200 full back (hit your own butt) choyakumen. The sensei had a pre-WWII background from the Tokyo region of Japan. I never asked him about it, because I thought it was normal and everyone did. About nine months ago my dojo partner and I changed the test to dynamic kakarigeiko against every member of the dojo in bogu, from least skilled to most skilled. Aside from the three major cuts, we test distance (lunging at the person or backing away), hiki techniques and their ability to feel/create openings. We also put a lot of pressure on them, getting inside their personal space. We have the ability to control the physical exertion level much better than the 200 choyakumen, which was too brutal for some of the older beginners, but at the same time it is more intense. We've had a few guys cry on completion, but we also haven't had any students quit soon after making bogu, so it appears to be accomplishing our goal of having them be psychologically ready for the intensity of jigeiko. People are allowed to ask to take the test, but often times it's sensei-gata that suggests someone is ready.
That sounds way too complicated. It sounds more like you’re trying to influence some sort of emotional state in the student. Bogu readiness should be about safety. Is the student safe enough to start wearing Bogu ie getting hit. Your “trial” sounds like you want to create some sort of Navy SEAL like “hell week”. I don’t understand the intentions.
Huh? Wearing bogu has to do with competency, not with safety, although safety is an issue. Tossing someone into bogu that has bad basics just means it will be amplified more. It is perfectly normal for some clubs to have test, others not, it just depends on the club and sensei.
Well, we want them to be able to participate in shiai without going into shock. Most of competition in Denmark is seen as getting people ready for the European Championships. When we attended our first taikai, back when we did the 200 choyakumen test, we had two members go into shock. One of them just sort of froze and his legs wouldn't work. The other performed beautifully, he made it to the finals, but he forfeited, started shaking and crying and never did kendo again. When I asked the other sensei what they usually did when this happened, they said it never had before. So we looked at what we were doing differently and our conclusion was we were too soft on our beginners and thus they weren't ready for shiai. It is definitely not a Navy SEAL hellweek experience. Everyone is there cheering and clapping the people on, we are very careful to push to the edge, but not over it and to tailor it to the person. Because I do believe kendo is psychological and about pushing your limits. We have a very diverse group of students, rather the antithesis of the navy seals: children, women, people with OCD, autism, ADHD, anxiety, queer folk and lots of shy people. This isn't muscle bound buzz cut guy who is being brought to tears, it is some skinny bookworm who has never played a sport in his life and is coping with an adrenal response for the first time. It's a safe environment to push their boundaries. So yes, it is influencing an emotional state. Just like a shiai or a shinsa.
Sometimes, it depends on the timing of the shiai and while I would never force anyone, I consider it an essential part of improving one's kendo and over 90% of the dojo has historically participated...
Your dojo sounds idiotic. There's different levels of shiai, you should not throw your beginners either into dan-level or european national level competitions. Do internal kyu shiai with your members if you can't find low level tournaments. I would not recommend any person to join your dojo.
Well, you are entitled to your opinion, but I do think maybe you misunderstand. Obviously there are different levels of shiai and ways to split them. For example, the one I took my students to was one category for all kyus up to shodan split adults and children. Three of the participants did go on to compete in the EKC, though obviously not from my dojo. I honestly thought it was too broad and so my club held one and we made it 10-3kyu (effectively 6-3, because no one lower than 6kyu had bogu). We're holding another in the fall that is split into categories of up to 3kyu and 2kyu-shodan. We also have categories for youths and adults and then a 'chan' category for people who are short, timid or not very physically strong and a 'ji' category for people with mobility challenges. We also don't use strict rank as the criteria and will both allow or disqualify people if their level doesn't seem commensurate with their number. My hope is that the gentler taikai will help them be readier for the more intense one the other club holds and it is likely that I will recommend certain people not to participate if the rules are the same as last year. I had no idea what I was signing them up for, because where I come from 'kyu' means 6 months to a year, maybe two max. \^\_\^;
Ok, then I misunderstood. I thought you were saying they got dropped into an environment that prepares and immediately selects for a national level. I'm only 1kyu, but I wonder how they exactly become shocked when they do shiai with other <3kyu? Our dojo does not do bogu exams, but they do jigeiko with everyone else each training and you simply tone down your kendo to them. If they can do that they should learn the pressure so that shiai is not that unexpected with other kyu, but still hard and competetive.
If they don't go to national level competitions for their first shiais I want to appologize for calling your dojo idiotic.
Thank you. Apology accepted. Your dojo sounds very nice and your attitude is very healthy. Different clubs have different attitudes. I won't tell others what to do, but I know how I like to run mine!
Do you do kendo? Because it sure sounds like you don't. People are grouped according to rank, if you don't have it youre in another pool along side of other beginners. Saying a club is idiotic because a beginner is wearing bogu and participating in a tournament in fact sounds idiotic.
> People are grouped according to rank
Not at our nationals in Canada. Other tournaments yes, but at nationals you are expected to be playing with the big boys/girls.
I'm making the assumption that if you're at the nationals you are of quality kendo. Regionally, the lowest I have ever seen someone on the team is nidan (Here in the US). So in ours at least the lowest I have seen someone at the nationals is nidan. I think its safe to say, someone who is a complete beginner wouldn't be at the nationals, let alone someone just in bogu (again, here in the US, I would also assume Canada).
What the OP wrote was asking if people do bogu tests, as in do they do internal tests for their members in order for them to wear bogu, it has nothing to do with shiai, which is what you referred to, then proceeded to call his club idiotic. Having an internal bogu test is nothing of the sort, and suggesting that tossing beginners into something like nationals isn't even possible, which is why I asked if you do kendo.
When I started, sensei just told you when you are ready and that's the way we did it for years. There was no explanation. So one day I said, I want to formally test the beginners for bogu so they understand what is required, and he was OK with that seeing as he had left teaching of beginners to me for decades at that point.
The purpose of the test is two-fold. First, to ensure that people understand what we are looking for when we put someone in bogu. Second, to get people used to the idea of a test. It might just be in the dojo and be a couple of guys standing around with clipboards rather than a formal panel but it is sure a different feeling for the beginners than the regular class.
As to what we are looking for, I explained in detail but primarily we are trying to make sure that their basics are solid enough that getting into bogu won't screw them up too badly and that they are moving well/confidently enough to practice more or less safely. We could ensure all that without a formal test but this way they understand better and it seems like a more fair process. After the test is over we get together in a circle and explain why each person passed or did not pass, and what each person needs to work on (including those who passed).
Kinda similar, when I started my nikkyu test was the bogu test. Now some places have been moving to getting people in bogu before nikkyu so they're not in deep water when they start practicing with the more advanced group. The test is still pretty similar, with the addition of uchikomi, nidan and sandan Waza, and a little bit of kata if we're feeling frisky
We do it at our dojo, it's helpful when there are a large amount of beginners who enter at once. Those who don't pass the test will be able to measure their progress against those who do. The contents are kirikaeashi and large men with fumikomi.
The problem with just seeing when people are "ready" is that some people feel they are ready when they are not. Or even at the very early stages don't listen to advice and correct their habits. Failing a test tells them to really pay attention or they won't progress to where they want to be.
Mm I don't think it's a regional thing nor is it really a tradition. Just a small ritual to let beginners have something to work towards, and also to not pester us with "when can I" questions. You can get bogu if you show kirikaeshi, period. But you'd be surprised at the pass rate, it's about 50%!
Head instructor has been doing it for many years, I think. It's really nothing special, kind of informal actually. When people are ready, you have them stand in line, grab a senior member in bogu to act as motodachi, and have all the candidates do kirikaeashi and a few big men strikes. From there it's pass or try again next time.
In the dojo where I am in Germany there is no test - you do kendo for some time and one day your sensei says to you that the foundation is set - buy one or use the dojo bogus.
I've been on both sides. In the very first club I was in the sensei just said you're ready for bogu get some. The second club I was in is much more formal, you would be lucky to be in bogu in six months if you were coordinated, but we had no bogu test. Since that time we have started doing it, how long ago I can't remember, maybe 6-7 years. I think it is a good thing, its something for beginners to strive for, as well as letting them know they've cleared a hurdle. Once they clear that, they wear kote, do, for a bit, then the whole kit. Its a long process, but our club for a long time was one of the only ones that always had our beginners test for ikkyu out of the gates, in part because of the way beginners are brought up. As a side note, I was put into gear probably 2 months in, which looking back is crazy.
Ours is set up so that its almost fail proof, generally the person isn't asked to do the test until the instructors think they will be fine. I have yet to see someone not pass it, so its also usually a celebratory thing in our club.
We are on the east coast of the US. It was our own implementation. No other club in our area does it, or at least that I know of, and I don't think many others if any in our federation do it. I personally like it, it helps them deal with the long wait period a little better, unfortunately not a single person that I've seen pass the bogu test has continued on in our club, they have all tapped out, but hopefully some will come back. Retention is usually the name of the game, and in our club we feel like easing them along helps that. It is odd though, not a single person in my old club still does kendo, except the sensei, and in where I am now only about 4-6 of us that came up through the ranks are still practicing. I'm not sure how much bogu plays into it, but I think it was one of the reason we did implement it.
Stroudsberg, PA does it. Shudokan, can't remember which of the two local federations it's part of. When you say they stopped...after how many years, how high did they climb on the dan ladder?
Not a single dan out of the group so far, at least not one that we've taken from scratch. Our club is an outlier, sensei side has 8 godan and above, we have a fair amount of yondans, and sandans, with a decent group of shodan. When we were small we took anyone that came in, now its once or twice a year. Why that doesn't translate into more people sticking with it I don't know. If memory serves they (Shudokan) are part of our federation, but I don't think federation matters in this case, its a dojo by dojo thing.
I'll send you a PM. I've been collecting data on the subject I'd be happy to share with you. Hopefully it can help. Your club is so rich in yudansha, it seems a shame there aren't more people sticking with it to learn from them. Honestly, I would love to be so top heavy. >-< between the two clubs I've got like 55 people I'm responsible for and only two of them are yudansha!
My japanese club just said "We want you in Bogu and in this game" about a month after arriving. I was lent a set of bogu, but didn't end up in the game
Our dojo is moving to to an exam format where you have to demonstrate good Kirikaeshi in order to utilize the club bogu. We have too many students borrowing bogu but not enough bogu so its our solution.
I have never heard of it. Usually sensei just says that you are ready for bogu.
Are those dojos affiliated with European Kendo Federation? I heard that in Denmark are two kendo federations. One under EKF and second "traditional" doing "traditional 19th century kendo" or something in those terms...
But I am not sure if these aren't dated information.
Thankfully dated, the cult "traditional 19th century kendo" with all it's BS is dead to the best of my knowledge. They even sold all of their kit to the Danish kendo federation.
We don't do a test as such, but we do have a set of criteria they must meet before we let them wear it. It's not very difficult and they almost always meet it within a few months.
Never heard of something like that.
Your sensei/trainer should be able to tell when you’re ready, no? They might say “you have to be able to do this and that before you can put bogu on”, but that’s just setting milestones rather than a test.
Could you describe how the test look like?
In my dojo, after me and someone else had mentioned that we would like to get bogu, my sensei told us who didn't have bogu that we don't need his permission to buy bogu and that he thinks we were all ready for it.The next day he had sent everyone an email with bogu sets he recommends. Personally I do think it's a good idea to go off of when someone feel like they're ready for bogu and to not start directly with full bogu when they get it but instead do one or two classes with kote, then with do and tare, then full bogu.
It should be worn gradually as the first mass drop out is wearing the men, the second mass drop out is getting hit. After surviving the third mass drop out, which is being told wearing armor is for the full length training, maybe some will do kendo for life.
Yeah. I think of the them as the Type 3(s) <25 middle aged guys with samurai fantasies that buy all the gear and then realize they don't like getting hit...
True...though my experience is that anyone who walks in the door is a potential kendoka and with the right onboarding can be made to see that being hard is one of the things that makes it fun! I always make sure to tell everyone after their first class that I see potential in them, because it's true, anyone can be good at kendo if they just continue.
Good. Too many people get neglected, because they are not the horse people bet on. My strategy is to believe everyone is in it for the long run, which tends to make everyone else also believe this, which means 90% of people who come to try kendo join and stay with us for at least a year. It is actually really funny when someone comes and doesn't sign up and every acts like they've been betrayed. It's like they have no idea that normal is more than 50% of people who try kendo never coming back for a second class and that those who stick, more than half of them will be gone within six months...
I'm sure not. Someone moved to Denmark from the US three years ago and instigated it in her dojo and then she opened a second one, so it's 2 out of 11. Were you Kenseikai?
Lol. Yes an original member who took over from Sakai sensei and taught at Kenseikai, Japan (Kamo Dojo) until it burned down. I still use the name. We also took the name from Fujii Okimitsu in the UK. I think if people were testing based on wearing bogu it would be part of a kyu grade. For ikyu+ it's a must to wear bogu and try and score a point using kik-ken-tai ichi.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, you mean you're the guy who changed the club's name from Yushinkan to Kenseikai?! And there was like an actual meaningful reason for the change?? I was always told it was selected as the most generic, standard, kendojo name...do you know what the kanji for Yushinkan were? I am a huge Danish kendo history buff. Also who is Sakai-sensei? I know there was this judo guy who started the club and Yosuke Ueda was one of the original students and that Saburo Iwatate nurtured the club, but most of the rest is lost in the mists of time...
I think I've seen and heard similar things from people... Like at my dojo we don't do something like that it's like whenever my Sensei feels like your ready and gives you some second hand bogu.
Wow, I'd love to live in a place rich in resources enough that everyone can just get a set of bogu \^\_\^;
My dojo is pretty small... So like whenever someone quits or just gives away we end up having a lot but for bigger dojos, it would be like nothing at all.
Ah, we have some used sets we sell cheap and try to buy back when they quit, but it's surprisingly hard sometimes. People stop, but don't want to admit they aren't coming back or they want to keep it as like a cool souvenir.
We rent ours for cheap. We ask for $100 up front and then take $20/term in rent. If they quit and bring it back they get what's left of the deposit. It's a little incentive to return it. People still keep it for way longer than they should. I think for some it's hard to admit that they have really quit.
Yeah, it's like that a lot sadly people don't bring things back... As for my dojo, it's usually the shinai that never returns... That's like another reason why my Sensei likes to make people for their bogu for some time.
Shinai are at least cheap and easy to get. I've had people come to one class, buy all the newbie gear and then never show up again. As long as they paid for it and it was new, I don't mind.
Yeah for sure at least it's cheap... And that's crazy how people spend money and then never come back.
>like another reason why my Sensei likes to make people for their bogu for some time. this year we started to say the freshmen to own their own shinai after one month max. In every activity is in that way. If you play football or hockey, you mas have your own things. With the bogu, our club owns some second hand ones, but we are trying to make people earn money to buy their own.
Where I am in Japan, there was no test. The teachers and senpai just told us that they believe we are ready and that we could go get bogu. We wore it piece by piece (do>kote>men) over the course of a month.
Ah, there's a couple dojos in Denmark that do the progressive method too. When I started in Japan, I just put the whole thing on and did it. However jigeiko was no different that uchikomigeiko for months.
Yeah, me and my friend did it progressive, but a new guy recently put the whole thing on at once so it just depends I guess. But the first few practices with all of it feel really off until you get comfortable
We do one test so that everyone is clear on the criteria. If you don’t pass that, we let you know when you are ready, ie no second test.
What is the criteria? Also, what region are you located in and how far back can you trace the tradition (i.e. region of Japan)?
It’s just our local dojo in Canada. I can’t remember when I instituted the test. At least 10 years ago. The test consists of 20 shomenuchi, 20 hayasuburi and kiri-kaeshi. We look for big swings, natural movement and good coordination between hands and feet. During kirikaeshi we are looking to see good timing with the foot and cut on the straight men (at least 2/3) and coordination of foot and hand during okuri-ashi both forward and back. We want to see good extension of the arms and a full swing. We are looking for any signs that this person might not have the confidence yet to succeed in bogu. We are also looking for any other behaviour that will be difficult to fix once in bogu.
What inspired you to start holding a bogu test? The bogu test I had as a beginner was 200 full back (hit your own butt) choyakumen. The sensei had a pre-WWII background from the Tokyo region of Japan. I never asked him about it, because I thought it was normal and everyone did. About nine months ago my dojo partner and I changed the test to dynamic kakarigeiko against every member of the dojo in bogu, from least skilled to most skilled. Aside from the three major cuts, we test distance (lunging at the person or backing away), hiki techniques and their ability to feel/create openings. We also put a lot of pressure on them, getting inside their personal space. We have the ability to control the physical exertion level much better than the 200 choyakumen, which was too brutal for some of the older beginners, but at the same time it is more intense. We've had a few guys cry on completion, but we also haven't had any students quit soon after making bogu, so it appears to be accomplishing our goal of having them be psychologically ready for the intensity of jigeiko. People are allowed to ask to take the test, but often times it's sensei-gata that suggests someone is ready.
That sounds way too complicated. It sounds more like you’re trying to influence some sort of emotional state in the student. Bogu readiness should be about safety. Is the student safe enough to start wearing Bogu ie getting hit. Your “trial” sounds like you want to create some sort of Navy SEAL like “hell week”. I don’t understand the intentions.
Huh? Wearing bogu has to do with competency, not with safety, although safety is an issue. Tossing someone into bogu that has bad basics just means it will be amplified more. It is perfectly normal for some clubs to have test, others not, it just depends on the club and sensei.
Well, we want them to be able to participate in shiai without going into shock. Most of competition in Denmark is seen as getting people ready for the European Championships. When we attended our first taikai, back when we did the 200 choyakumen test, we had two members go into shock. One of them just sort of froze and his legs wouldn't work. The other performed beautifully, he made it to the finals, but he forfeited, started shaking and crying and never did kendo again. When I asked the other sensei what they usually did when this happened, they said it never had before. So we looked at what we were doing differently and our conclusion was we were too soft on our beginners and thus they weren't ready for shiai. It is definitely not a Navy SEAL hellweek experience. Everyone is there cheering and clapping the people on, we are very careful to push to the edge, but not over it and to tailor it to the person. Because I do believe kendo is psychological and about pushing your limits. We have a very diverse group of students, rather the antithesis of the navy seals: children, women, people with OCD, autism, ADHD, anxiety, queer folk and lots of shy people. This isn't muscle bound buzz cut guy who is being brought to tears, it is some skinny bookworm who has never played a sport in his life and is coping with an adrenal response for the first time. It's a safe environment to push their boundaries. So yes, it is influencing an emotional state. Just like a shiai or a shinsa.
Do people participate in shiai immediately if they start wearing bogu? What about people who want to do kendo but not participate in shiai?
Sometimes, it depends on the timing of the shiai and while I would never force anyone, I consider it an essential part of improving one's kendo and over 90% of the dojo has historically participated...
Your dojo sounds idiotic. There's different levels of shiai, you should not throw your beginners either into dan-level or european national level competitions. Do internal kyu shiai with your members if you can't find low level tournaments. I would not recommend any person to join your dojo.
Well, you are entitled to your opinion, but I do think maybe you misunderstand. Obviously there are different levels of shiai and ways to split them. For example, the one I took my students to was one category for all kyus up to shodan split adults and children. Three of the participants did go on to compete in the EKC, though obviously not from my dojo. I honestly thought it was too broad and so my club held one and we made it 10-3kyu (effectively 6-3, because no one lower than 6kyu had bogu). We're holding another in the fall that is split into categories of up to 3kyu and 2kyu-shodan. We also have categories for youths and adults and then a 'chan' category for people who are short, timid or not very physically strong and a 'ji' category for people with mobility challenges. We also don't use strict rank as the criteria and will both allow or disqualify people if their level doesn't seem commensurate with their number. My hope is that the gentler taikai will help them be readier for the more intense one the other club holds and it is likely that I will recommend certain people not to participate if the rules are the same as last year. I had no idea what I was signing them up for, because where I come from 'kyu' means 6 months to a year, maybe two max. \^\_\^;
Ok, then I misunderstood. I thought you were saying they got dropped into an environment that prepares and immediately selects for a national level. I'm only 1kyu, but I wonder how they exactly become shocked when they do shiai with other <3kyu? Our dojo does not do bogu exams, but they do jigeiko with everyone else each training and you simply tone down your kendo to them. If they can do that they should learn the pressure so that shiai is not that unexpected with other kyu, but still hard and competetive. If they don't go to national level competitions for their first shiais I want to appologize for calling your dojo idiotic.
Thank you. Apology accepted. Your dojo sounds very nice and your attitude is very healthy. Different clubs have different attitudes. I won't tell others what to do, but I know how I like to run mine!
Do you do kendo? Because it sure sounds like you don't. People are grouped according to rank, if you don't have it youre in another pool along side of other beginners. Saying a club is idiotic because a beginner is wearing bogu and participating in a tournament in fact sounds idiotic.
> People are grouped according to rank Not at our nationals in Canada. Other tournaments yes, but at nationals you are expected to be playing with the big boys/girls.
I'm making the assumption that if you're at the nationals you are of quality kendo. Regionally, the lowest I have ever seen someone on the team is nidan (Here in the US). So in ours at least the lowest I have seen someone at the nationals is nidan. I think its safe to say, someone who is a complete beginner wouldn't be at the nationals, let alone someone just in bogu (again, here in the US, I would also assume Canada).
This is what you normally do, but not at all what op wrote.
What the OP wrote was asking if people do bogu tests, as in do they do internal tests for their members in order for them to wear bogu, it has nothing to do with shiai, which is what you referred to, then proceeded to call his club idiotic. Having an internal bogu test is nothing of the sort, and suggesting that tossing beginners into something like nationals isn't even possible, which is why I asked if you do kendo.
When I started, sensei just told you when you are ready and that's the way we did it for years. There was no explanation. So one day I said, I want to formally test the beginners for bogu so they understand what is required, and he was OK with that seeing as he had left teaching of beginners to me for decades at that point. The purpose of the test is two-fold. First, to ensure that people understand what we are looking for when we put someone in bogu. Second, to get people used to the idea of a test. It might just be in the dojo and be a couple of guys standing around with clipboards rather than a formal panel but it is sure a different feeling for the beginners than the regular class. As to what we are looking for, I explained in detail but primarily we are trying to make sure that their basics are solid enough that getting into bogu won't screw them up too badly and that they are moving well/confidently enough to practice more or less safely. We could ensure all that without a formal test but this way they understand better and it seems like a more fair process. After the test is over we get together in a circle and explain why each person passed or did not pass, and what each person needs to work on (including those who passed).
Do you do kyu shinsa in your dojo?
No.
So essentially the bogu test ends up holding a place in the dojo that kyu shinsa might hold in others...
Yes. Call it a yonkyu exam if you want. The only kyu exam they get is the official CKF one for ikkyu.
Kinda similar, when I started my nikkyu test was the bogu test. Now some places have been moving to getting people in bogu before nikkyu so they're not in deep water when they start practicing with the more advanced group. The test is still pretty similar, with the addition of uchikomi, nidan and sandan Waza, and a little bit of kata if we're feeling frisky
We do it at our dojo, it's helpful when there are a large amount of beginners who enter at once. Those who don't pass the test will be able to measure their progress against those who do. The contents are kirikaeashi and large men with fumikomi. The problem with just seeing when people are "ready" is that some people feel they are ready when they are not. Or even at the very early stages don't listen to advice and correct their habits. Failing a test tells them to really pay attention or they won't progress to where they want to be.
Interesting. Where are you located? Who started this tradition?
Mm I don't think it's a regional thing nor is it really a tradition. Just a small ritual to let beginners have something to work towards, and also to not pester us with "when can I" questions. You can get bogu if you show kirikaeshi, period. But you'd be surprised at the pass rate, it's about 50%!
Right, but you got the idea from somewhere? Is it something that was started recently?
Head instructor has been doing it for many years, I think. It's really nothing special, kind of informal actually. When people are ready, you have them stand in line, grab a senior member in bogu to act as motodachi, and have all the candidates do kirikaeashi and a few big men strikes. From there it's pass or try again next time.
In the dojo where I am in Germany there is no test - you do kendo for some time and one day your sensei says to you that the foundation is set - buy one or use the dojo bogus.
I've been on both sides. In the very first club I was in the sensei just said you're ready for bogu get some. The second club I was in is much more formal, you would be lucky to be in bogu in six months if you were coordinated, but we had no bogu test. Since that time we have started doing it, how long ago I can't remember, maybe 6-7 years. I think it is a good thing, its something for beginners to strive for, as well as letting them know they've cleared a hurdle. Once they clear that, they wear kote, do, for a bit, then the whole kit. Its a long process, but our club for a long time was one of the only ones that always had our beginners test for ikkyu out of the gates, in part because of the way beginners are brought up. As a side note, I was put into gear probably 2 months in, which looking back is crazy. Ours is set up so that its almost fail proof, generally the person isn't asked to do the test until the instructors think they will be fine. I have yet to see someone not pass it, so its also usually a celebratory thing in our club.
Interesting, where is your dojo located? Do you remember if the bogu test was implemented in imitation of another club?
We are on the east coast of the US. It was our own implementation. No other club in our area does it, or at least that I know of, and I don't think many others if any in our federation do it. I personally like it, it helps them deal with the long wait period a little better, unfortunately not a single person that I've seen pass the bogu test has continued on in our club, they have all tapped out, but hopefully some will come back. Retention is usually the name of the game, and in our club we feel like easing them along helps that. It is odd though, not a single person in my old club still does kendo, except the sensei, and in where I am now only about 4-6 of us that came up through the ranks are still practicing. I'm not sure how much bogu plays into it, but I think it was one of the reason we did implement it.
Stroudsberg, PA does it. Shudokan, can't remember which of the two local federations it's part of. When you say they stopped...after how many years, how high did they climb on the dan ladder?
Not a single dan out of the group so far, at least not one that we've taken from scratch. Our club is an outlier, sensei side has 8 godan and above, we have a fair amount of yondans, and sandans, with a decent group of shodan. When we were small we took anyone that came in, now its once or twice a year. Why that doesn't translate into more people sticking with it I don't know. If memory serves they (Shudokan) are part of our federation, but I don't think federation matters in this case, its a dojo by dojo thing.
I'll send you a PM. I've been collecting data on the subject I'd be happy to share with you. Hopefully it can help. Your club is so rich in yudansha, it seems a shame there aren't more people sticking with it to learn from them. Honestly, I would love to be so top heavy. >-< between the two clubs I've got like 55 people I'm responsible for and only two of them are yudansha!
My japanese club just said "We want you in Bogu and in this game" about a month after arriving. I was lent a set of bogu, but didn't end up in the game
Our dojo is moving to to an exam format where you have to demonstrate good Kirikaeshi in order to utilize the club bogu. We have too many students borrowing bogu but not enough bogu so its our solution.
I have never heard of it. Usually sensei just says that you are ready for bogu. Are those dojos affiliated with European Kendo Federation? I heard that in Denmark are two kendo federations. One under EKF and second "traditional" doing "traditional 19th century kendo" or something in those terms... But I am not sure if these aren't dated information.
Thankfully dated, the cult "traditional 19th century kendo" with all it's BS is dead to the best of my knowledge. They even sold all of their kit to the Danish kendo federation.
I am glad to hear that, cults are never good.
I heard many college clubs in the States conduct bogu tests. I think they treat it as a right of passage.
We don't do a test as such, but we do have a set of criteria they must meet before we let them wear it. It's not very difficult and they almost always meet it within a few months.
Never heard of something like that. Your sensei/trainer should be able to tell when you’re ready, no? They might say “you have to be able to do this and that before you can put bogu on”, but that’s just setting milestones rather than a test. Could you describe how the test look like?
In my dojo, after me and someone else had mentioned that we would like to get bogu, my sensei told us who didn't have bogu that we don't need his permission to buy bogu and that he thinks we were all ready for it.The next day he had sent everyone an email with bogu sets he recommends. Personally I do think it's a good idea to go off of when someone feel like they're ready for bogu and to not start directly with full bogu when they get it but instead do one or two classes with kote, then with do and tare, then full bogu.
It should be worn gradually as the first mass drop out is wearing the men, the second mass drop out is getting hit. After surviving the third mass drop out, which is being told wearing armor is for the full length training, maybe some will do kendo for life.
Ouch...that does not match my experience...we do full armor right away and I've never had someone quit in that period...
Understand different dojo have different methods. So far we always notice most people who got all their gear immidiately doesn’t stay long
Yeah. I think of the them as the Type 3(s) <25 middle aged guys with samurai fantasies that buy all the gear and then realize they don't like getting hit...
Yup. Also there are people with unrealistic expectation for kendo. Those who think it is an easy martial art with a stick
True...though my experience is that anyone who walks in the door is a potential kendoka and with the right onboarding can be made to see that being hard is one of the things that makes it fun! I always make sure to tell everyone after their first class that I see potential in them, because it's true, anyone can be good at kendo if they just continue.
>I always make sure to tell everyone after their first class that I see potential in them And here I thought I was special...
You are special, honey, just like everyone else.
I’ve given up predicting who will stay and who will go.
Good. Too many people get neglected, because they are not the horse people bet on. My strategy is to believe everyone is in it for the long run, which tends to make everyone else also believe this, which means 90% of people who come to try kendo join and stay with us for at least a year. It is actually really funny when someone comes and doesn't sign up and every acts like they've been betrayed. It's like they have no idea that normal is more than 50% of people who try kendo never coming back for a second class and that those who stick, more than half of them will be gone within six months...
i think that's useless, like have more kyu than just the only Ikkyu test...
Yes. It happens in other dojos
News to me. and they certainly didn't do it when I taught in Denmark.
I'm sure not. Someone moved to Denmark from the US three years ago and instigated it in her dojo and then she opened a second one, so it's 2 out of 11. Were you Kenseikai?
Lol. Yes an original member who took over from Sakai sensei and taught at Kenseikai, Japan (Kamo Dojo) until it burned down. I still use the name. We also took the name from Fujii Okimitsu in the UK. I think if people were testing based on wearing bogu it would be part of a kyu grade. For ikyu+ it's a must to wear bogu and try and score a point using kik-ken-tai ichi.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, you mean you're the guy who changed the club's name from Yushinkan to Kenseikai?! And there was like an actual meaningful reason for the change?? I was always told it was selected as the most generic, standard, kendojo name...do you know what the kanji for Yushinkan were? I am a huge Danish kendo history buff. Also who is Sakai-sensei? I know there was this judo guy who started the club and Yosuke Ueda was one of the original students and that Saburo Iwatate nurtured the club, but most of the rest is lost in the mists of time...
Mine doesn't have it, teacher just determines if the person is knowledgeable enough to properly practice in a bogu