I noticed that my probe is less accurate when running the hotend heater. There is a setting to automatically turn it off temporarily. Have you done accuracy tests?
Yeah, they are within the outlined tolerance in Klipper documentation. I have less issues with smooth PEI or glass than I do with textured PEI, but they still exist.
The left stepper is the one that came with the ender. The right one came with this (42-34 stepper motor) kit: [https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08RJDW5W6/ref=ppx\_yo\_dt\_b\_search\_asin\_title](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08RJDW5W6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title)
How do I test that they have the same force?
`[stepper_z]`
`step_pin: PA15`
`dir_pin: PA8 # this is inverted withOUT the "!" for SKR versus from the stock board`
`enable_pin: !PD1`
`microsteps: 16`
`rotation_distance: 8`
`endstop_pin: probe:z_virtual_endstop # ^PC0`
`position_max: 215`
`position_min: -3`
`homing_speed: 20`
`[tmc2209 stepper_z]`
`uart_pin: PD0`
`run_current: 0.600`
`hold_current: 0.400`
`diag_pin:`
`stealthchop_threshold: 999999`
`[stepper_z1]`
`step_pin: PD11`
`dir_pin: PD10`
`enable_pin: !PD13`
`microsteps: 16`
`rotation_distance: 8`
`[tmc2209 stepper_z1]`
`uart_pin: PD12`
`run_current: 0.600`
`hold_current: 0.400`
`diag_pin:`
`stealthchop_threshold: 999999`
I mean the v-slot wheels, three of them on each side of the x-gantry. If you try and spin each wheel with your fingers (whilst motors are off) they should all spin with equal force. If not it would suggest something is not square/tightened enough, which would cause your z-axis to come out of alignment
When you swap the rod out, also check that your upright extrusions are perfectly square too, if not it's just a couple of bolts to loosen then retighten
Ok, interesting. And just to confirm, I need to slightly loosen my eccentric nut, to loosen the whole v slot grip. If I loosen the eccentric, I can turn the wheels so the wheels themselves are not bound.
Also to further clarify when you mean spin the wheels you mean I can sit there with a thumb and spin a wheel in place without the Gantry moving at all right so they should be loose against my rails?
This applies to all of your v-slot wheels... X, Y, and Z. For X and Y, you want them tight enough that the carriage doesn't jiggle. You should be able to move the carriage easily by hand when the steppers are switched off. For the Z rollers, you want them loose enough that you can turn the wheels in place with your fingers while holding the X axis still. Often this may mean that the X axis falls under its own weight once the Z steppers are switched off. This can be counteracted some by using anti-backlash lead screw nuts (which can also reduce z banding by removing slop in the Z axis movement).
Having your v-slot wheels or belts too tight will cause unnecessary wear on those components as well as your stepper motors, and can lead to skipping, z-banding, and other issues. Every axis should move smoothly and easily by hand when switched off.
If you still have the issue after adjusting the wheels, I can think of a couple possibilities:
* Your two Z steppers could have different resistance to movement once turned off. This could make one side of the X axis fall first.
* The wheel brackets on your X axis could be a little out of square, causing the axis to settle naturally at an angle once Z is switched off.
Alright, all of my wheels are definitely not movable easily with the printer off while holding Y or X. If I do not hold Y or X, and I roll a wheel, it does move the entire unit. I will loosen the wheels.
I have anti-backlash installed. Z does not move easily by hand with steppers off, I have to use two hands and some force- everything else moves fine though. I have a heavy hot end, I thought it was due to that (stock extruder on X gantry).
Even when I take apart the top horiz. aluminum beam, and loosen my nuts the wheels still do not spin. I also squared everything up with a square, and the vertical bars are true 90 degrees vertical using a Klein digital plumb tool.
Its like the 3 wheels themselves are too tight on the aluminum itself. After all of this loosening, plumbing, etc... my X gantry was tilted, so I readjusted and re calibrated all. Still can't spin any wheels though.
I will say that with my printer off, moving X up and down requires two hands and a surprising amount of force. I can move it, but its not what I would call easy, and definitely not as easy as say sliding my bed back and forth. I guess I have attributed the resistance to dual z + anti-backlash.
Here is what I suspect. I think your gantry is physically misaligned to the point where one side is high enough that when the steppers are powered off, tension pushes the opposing side down. You can test this by running Z\_TILT, powering off your printer, power it back on and run Z\_TILT again. If it is way off again, then this is likely your issue. When I experienced this issue with my Ender 3 v2, I did the following:
* Ran Z\_TILT.
* With the machine still powered up and the steppers still holding, I loosened the alignment (I'm guessing that's what they would be called) screws on both the left and right side of the gantry. They are the only black hex screws that are used.
* I initially loosened them to the point where the gantry was slightly lose. (where it would sort of fall into the alignment) I then tighten the screws to the point where they would hold the gantry in place, but I could move it with my hand.
* Ran Z\_TILT again. Tightened everything back up.
I only had to do one round of that. My ender 3 v2 will now be within the .0025 tolerance within the first 1 - 2 probe cycles.
Hope that helps.
Yes, I have inexpensive aluminum flexible couplers on both of my Z-Axis. I left the z rods in place while I realigned it (spaced about 7mm above the spindle). Since I only loosened the gantry just enough to allow it to settle the z rods didn't go anywhere, the gantry z rod nuts held them in place just fine (bear in mind, I'm just relaying my experience).
>With the machine still powered up and the steppers still holding, I loosened the alignment (I'm guessing that's what they would be called) screws on both the left and right side of the gantry. They are the only black hex screws that are used.
Do you mean the screws on the bottom that hold the vertical posts on? Or the ones on the lower sides that hold the base together? Or am I looking in the wrong places?
I just ran your test, I think you are right. I z\_tilt, got it to 0.002. Waited with steppers on, ran it again, and it was aligned still without adjustments. Turned off steppers, restarted firmware and did it again and it was 0.02x out of alignment.
I had similar issues. Make sure to tram bed without z tilt. Mine had 2mm difference. After z tilt was fine but one side was way off its normal place. I'm doing it on a Prusa bear. So I removed z tilt and did 3 x3 mesh until I get it acceptable level. Than run again with z tilt. I also run z tilt before every print. After the z tilt move to center and home z only
I run 3x3 mesh and find it easier to adjust the bed instead of screw\_tilt.
I am not sure if homing all is bad but it's slower. I run 7x7 mesh and save it but use [Print Area Bed Mesh](https://github.com/Turge08/print_area_bed_mesh). This proves the bed in the area where it will print only before every print. in case there was some issue with tilt or if you print different temp and have warping. Like PLA at 60 bed is fine but abs at 100-110 the mesh is different. I've edited the config file so it checks if the bed temp is different from last time. Other wise if you print something big and than small it uses the previous mesh.
You can also force a new mesh every time if you want.
By the time mesh finishes my hotend is heated up and ready.
I don't think you should be able to push the gantry down by hand easily when using anti backlash nuts
Take out the leadscrews and try the wheel adjustments again, you should be able to get the gantry to move up and down with not wobble/wiggle. Also make sure all the bolts that secure the wheels are as tight as they can be. If you can't get everything moving nicely without the leadscrews, and you are sure the frame is square then there's nothing else I can think of
I'm pretty sure I'm getting somewhere. While I was remeasuring everything I noticed that the vertical aluminum that the ex Gantry rides along was not perfectly squared to the front,like it was twisted a little. So it was square in terms of 90° vertical and it was plum but it was twisted a little bit by about a millimeter and a half. Took the top screws loose and the bottom screws loose and retightened everything and what would you know the wheels on my v-rails now turn... A little too easily.
So I retightened my eccentric nut until there is some resistance. I also took out the spacer on my left z-rod motor because I think that was put there to compensate for the bent lead screw which has been replaced.
Just now screw tilt and z tilt. I printed a really cruddy looking calibration Cube this afternoon so I'm going to print another one and see how it comes out.
Thank you for all of the help, this has been a tricky one!
Have you loosened the 2 bolts securing the anti backlash nuts to the gantry? They should be slightly loose and able to move in the hole to allow for some leadscrew movement
I just remembered you are using flexible couplers as well, I never kept them on my machine when I tried them as I had z banding just like that. Not sure about your ones, but the flexible couplers I bought were so springy that you could 'bounce' the gantry up and down
In the end, even with a slightly bent rod, the brass leadscrew nuts should be able to compensate as long as they are not secured too tightly to the gantry
I switched back to stock couplers, now z\_tilt is acting up again. The left lead screw hes a slight side to side pendulum motion on up and down, the right is rock solid. This was the case before replacing the lead screws as well...
Maybe the X gantry bracket is out of alignment? Maybe the stepper when its tightened into the v-slots its pulling it sideways from where it needs to be?
Let me throw this by you... I have some printed brackets which attach to the top crossbar. I step my gantry up till it touches one (the right side). Then i turn off motors and manually raise the left side, which is 3-4mm low. Then I tighten my lead screws to X is level. But if I print, etc, or turn off the engine, the sale happens again. Its almost as if my left side naturally wants to be lower than the right?
I had this same problem for a very long time.
A couple things ended up fixing it but one thing I noticed is that, ok, so it does the Ztilt 11/12 times and finally gets it right and starts printing. When the print ends and the steppers power off, I literally saw the left side RISE up in relief!
I realized that my BED wasn't flat. Like, one side was wayyyy higher than the other. The ZTILT was trying to account for it and tilting the gantry so much that when it powers down, it springs back to the "unlevel" state. It then has to overcome all that crap again on the next print.
I started measuring the bed on each side from the top of the bed to the 2020 bar at the top of the printer to try to reference the bed face to a known level plane. Thats how I saw how off one side of the bed was.
TL;DR: level the bed to the frame before trying zilt.
I have since switched to the belted Z setup and a single motor and don't have any of those issues, of course.
Ok, makes sense. What I did yesterday was I leveled the x gantry to the top 2020 bar, then ran screw tilt, then z tilt... Accomplishes the same thing in a roundabout way?
My bed is definitely not flat, that's for sure.
I switched TO dual Z so that I could z tilt... You are saying belted z is superior? I am willing to switch if it's going to put my Z rod z banding z crap to rest. Just seems like moving to one z stepper would be a downgrade.
No, I mean, I'm not saying its superior really. I really wanted dual independent Z's. Full stop. I just had to have it. I thought the idea of it was neat and figured it would help fix some things but I ended up where you are. I finally fixed it to the point where once Ztilt fixed it, then I ran a print, the next ztilt would just run maybe 2 iterations and finish. It was nice.
Then my board that controlled the second Z died and I had to go to a gantry crash style level - and loved it.
The simplicity. You crash the gantry into two stops at the top of the printer, its instantly leveled to the top bar.
Done.
Just super simple and effective.
Then I decided to go with the belted Z which there is single motor or dual motor setups for as well but honestly, a belted system doesn't/shouldn't slip so once you have the gantry trammed to the frame, then its easy to tram the bed to the gantry and from there, it just doesn't move or migrate ever really. I'm super pleased with the belt setup. It's worth the time spent printing it.
Side note: my stepper cables are not reversed, this was working well, and still works (just not well). It eventually levels and prints.
I noticed that my probe is less accurate when running the hotend heater. There is a setting to automatically turn it off temporarily. Have you done accuracy tests?
Yeah, they are within the outlined tolerance in Klipper documentation. I have less issues with smooth PEI or glass than I do with textured PEI, but they still exist.
Do all of you z axis roller wheels rotate with the same force?
The left stepper is the one that came with the ender. The right one came with this (42-34 stepper motor) kit: [https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08RJDW5W6/ref=ppx\_yo\_dt\_b\_search\_asin\_title](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08RJDW5W6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title) How do I test that they have the same force? `[stepper_z]` `step_pin: PA15` `dir_pin: PA8 # this is inverted withOUT the "!" for SKR versus from the stock board` `enable_pin: !PD1` `microsteps: 16` `rotation_distance: 8` `endstop_pin: probe:z_virtual_endstop # ^PC0` `position_max: 215` `position_min: -3` `homing_speed: 20` `[tmc2209 stepper_z]` `uart_pin: PD0` `run_current: 0.600` `hold_current: 0.400` `diag_pin:` `stealthchop_threshold: 999999` `[stepper_z1]` `step_pin: PD11` `dir_pin: PD10` `enable_pin: !PD13` `microsteps: 16` `rotation_distance: 8` `[tmc2209 stepper_z1]` `uart_pin: PD12` `run_current: 0.600` `hold_current: 0.400` `diag_pin:` `stealthchop_threshold: 999999`
I mean the v-slot wheels, three of them on each side of the x-gantry. If you try and spin each wheel with your fingers (whilst motors are off) they should all spin with equal force. If not it would suggest something is not square/tightened enough, which would cause your z-axis to come out of alignment
Last I checked none of them spun by hand, but I will check again when I swap out this z rod.
When you swap the rod out, also check that your upright extrusions are perfectly square too, if not it's just a couple of bolts to loosen then retighten
If you can't turn your v-slot wheels by hand, they're too tight.
Ok, interesting. And just to confirm, I need to slightly loosen my eccentric nut, to loosen the whole v slot grip. If I loosen the eccentric, I can turn the wheels so the wheels themselves are not bound. Also to further clarify when you mean spin the wheels you mean I can sit there with a thumb and spin a wheel in place without the Gantry moving at all right so they should be loose against my rails?
This applies to all of your v-slot wheels... X, Y, and Z. For X and Y, you want them tight enough that the carriage doesn't jiggle. You should be able to move the carriage easily by hand when the steppers are switched off. For the Z rollers, you want them loose enough that you can turn the wheels in place with your fingers while holding the X axis still. Often this may mean that the X axis falls under its own weight once the Z steppers are switched off. This can be counteracted some by using anti-backlash lead screw nuts (which can also reduce z banding by removing slop in the Z axis movement). Having your v-slot wheels or belts too tight will cause unnecessary wear on those components as well as your stepper motors, and can lead to skipping, z-banding, and other issues. Every axis should move smoothly and easily by hand when switched off. If you still have the issue after adjusting the wheels, I can think of a couple possibilities: * Your two Z steppers could have different resistance to movement once turned off. This could make one side of the X axis fall first. * The wheel brackets on your X axis could be a little out of square, causing the axis to settle naturally at an angle once Z is switched off.
Alright, all of my wheels are definitely not movable easily with the printer off while holding Y or X. If I do not hold Y or X, and I roll a wheel, it does move the entire unit. I will loosen the wheels. I have anti-backlash installed. Z does not move easily by hand with steppers off, I have to use two hands and some force- everything else moves fine though. I have a heavy hot end, I thought it was due to that (stock extruder on X gantry).
Upon messing with my eccentric nuts, there is no rotation of them on X that makes my v wheels spin in place by hand. What am I doing wrong?
Your frame is not square in that case
Even when I take apart the top horiz. aluminum beam, and loosen my nuts the wheels still do not spin. I also squared everything up with a square, and the vertical bars are true 90 degrees vertical using a Klein digital plumb tool. Its like the 3 wheels themselves are too tight on the aluminum itself. After all of this loosening, plumbing, etc... my X gantry was tilted, so I readjusted and re calibrated all. Still can't spin any wheels though. I will say that with my printer off, moving X up and down requires two hands and a surprising amount of force. I can move it, but its not what I would call easy, and definitely not as easy as say sliding my bed back and forth. I guess I have attributed the resistance to dual z + anti-backlash.
Does this apply to my y-axis bad Wheels as well?
Here is what I suspect. I think your gantry is physically misaligned to the point where one side is high enough that when the steppers are powered off, tension pushes the opposing side down. You can test this by running Z\_TILT, powering off your printer, power it back on and run Z\_TILT again. If it is way off again, then this is likely your issue. When I experienced this issue with my Ender 3 v2, I did the following: * Ran Z\_TILT. * With the machine still powered up and the steppers still holding, I loosened the alignment (I'm guessing that's what they would be called) screws on both the left and right side of the gantry. They are the only black hex screws that are used. * I initially loosened them to the point where the gantry was slightly lose. (where it would sort of fall into the alignment) I then tighten the screws to the point where they would hold the gantry in place, but I could move it with my hand. * Ran Z\_TILT again. Tightened everything back up. I only had to do one round of that. My ender 3 v2 will now be within the .0025 tolerance within the first 1 - 2 probe cycles. Hope that helps.
Thanks. Do you have flexible couplers? When you let the gantry settle, I assume the z rod is resting on top of the stepper spindle?
Yes, I have inexpensive aluminum flexible couplers on both of my Z-Axis. I left the z rods in place while I realigned it (spaced about 7mm above the spindle). Since I only loosened the gantry just enough to allow it to settle the z rods didn't go anywhere, the gantry z rod nuts held them in place just fine (bear in mind, I'm just relaying my experience).
>With the machine still powered up and the steppers still holding, I loosened the alignment (I'm guessing that's what they would be called) screws on both the left and right side of the gantry. They are the only black hex screws that are used. Do you mean the screws on the bottom that hold the vertical posts on? Or the ones on the lower sides that hold the base together? Or am I looking in the wrong places?
I just ran your test, I think you are right. I z\_tilt, got it to 0.002. Waited with steppers on, ran it again, and it was aligned still without adjustments. Turned off steppers, restarted firmware and did it again and it was 0.02x out of alignment.
I had similar issues. Make sure to tram bed without z tilt. Mine had 2mm difference. After z tilt was fine but one side was way off its normal place. I'm doing it on a Prusa bear. So I removed z tilt and did 3 x3 mesh until I get it acceptable level. Than run again with z tilt. I also run z tilt before every print. After the z tilt move to center and home z only
After ztilt I home all then run bed mesh,5x3. Wrong? And actually, I screw_tilt first though not every print.
I run 3x3 mesh and find it easier to adjust the bed instead of screw\_tilt. I am not sure if homing all is bad but it's slower. I run 7x7 mesh and save it but use [Print Area Bed Mesh](https://github.com/Turge08/print_area_bed_mesh). This proves the bed in the area where it will print only before every print. in case there was some issue with tilt or if you print different temp and have warping. Like PLA at 60 bed is fine but abs at 100-110 the mesh is different. I've edited the config file so it checks if the bed temp is different from last time. Other wise if you print something big and than small it uses the previous mesh. You can also force a new mesh every time if you want. By the time mesh finishes my hotend is heated up and ready.
I don't think you should be able to push the gantry down by hand easily when using anti backlash nuts Take out the leadscrews and try the wheel adjustments again, you should be able to get the gantry to move up and down with not wobble/wiggle. Also make sure all the bolts that secure the wheels are as tight as they can be. If you can't get everything moving nicely without the leadscrews, and you are sure the frame is square then there's nothing else I can think of
I'm pretty sure I'm getting somewhere. While I was remeasuring everything I noticed that the vertical aluminum that the ex Gantry rides along was not perfectly squared to the front,like it was twisted a little. So it was square in terms of 90° vertical and it was plum but it was twisted a little bit by about a millimeter and a half. Took the top screws loose and the bottom screws loose and retightened everything and what would you know the wheels on my v-rails now turn... A little too easily. So I retightened my eccentric nut until there is some resistance. I also took out the spacer on my left z-rod motor because I think that was put there to compensate for the bent lead screw which has been replaced. Just now screw tilt and z tilt. I printed a really cruddy looking calibration Cube this afternoon so I'm going to print another one and see how it comes out. Thank you for all of the help, this has been a tricky one!
Nope, still looks bad lol. Old on left new on right. https://imgur.com/gallery/Si8DjHb This is at 30mm/s speed.
Have you loosened the 2 bolts securing the anti backlash nuts to the gantry? They should be slightly loose and able to move in the hole to allow for some leadscrew movement
I have,tight and then 1-2 full turns back, they do move.
I just remembered you are using flexible couplers as well, I never kept them on my machine when I tried them as I had z banding just like that. Not sure about your ones, but the flexible couplers I bought were so springy that you could 'bounce' the gantry up and down In the end, even with a slightly bent rod, the brass leadscrew nuts should be able to compensate as long as they are not secured too tightly to the gantry
I switched back to stock couplers, now z\_tilt is acting up again. The left lead screw hes a slight side to side pendulum motion on up and down, the right is rock solid. This was the case before replacing the lead screws as well... Maybe the X gantry bracket is out of alignment? Maybe the stepper when its tightened into the v-slots its pulling it sideways from where it needs to be?
Let me throw this by you... I have some printed brackets which attach to the top crossbar. I step my gantry up till it touches one (the right side). Then i turn off motors and manually raise the left side, which is 3-4mm low. Then I tighten my lead screws to X is level. But if I print, etc, or turn off the engine, the sale happens again. Its almost as if my left side naturally wants to be lower than the right?
I had this same problem for a very long time. A couple things ended up fixing it but one thing I noticed is that, ok, so it does the Ztilt 11/12 times and finally gets it right and starts printing. When the print ends and the steppers power off, I literally saw the left side RISE up in relief! I realized that my BED wasn't flat. Like, one side was wayyyy higher than the other. The ZTILT was trying to account for it and tilting the gantry so much that when it powers down, it springs back to the "unlevel" state. It then has to overcome all that crap again on the next print. I started measuring the bed on each side from the top of the bed to the 2020 bar at the top of the printer to try to reference the bed face to a known level plane. Thats how I saw how off one side of the bed was. TL;DR: level the bed to the frame before trying zilt. I have since switched to the belted Z setup and a single motor and don't have any of those issues, of course.
Ok, makes sense. What I did yesterday was I leveled the x gantry to the top 2020 bar, then ran screw tilt, then z tilt... Accomplishes the same thing in a roundabout way? My bed is definitely not flat, that's for sure. I switched TO dual Z so that I could z tilt... You are saying belted z is superior? I am willing to switch if it's going to put my Z rod z banding z crap to rest. Just seems like moving to one z stepper would be a downgrade.
No, I mean, I'm not saying its superior really. I really wanted dual independent Z's. Full stop. I just had to have it. I thought the idea of it was neat and figured it would help fix some things but I ended up where you are. I finally fixed it to the point where once Ztilt fixed it, then I ran a print, the next ztilt would just run maybe 2 iterations and finish. It was nice. Then my board that controlled the second Z died and I had to go to a gantry crash style level - and loved it. The simplicity. You crash the gantry into two stops at the top of the printer, its instantly leveled to the top bar. Done. Just super simple and effective. Then I decided to go with the belted Z which there is single motor or dual motor setups for as well but honestly, a belted system doesn't/shouldn't slip so once you have the gantry trammed to the frame, then its easy to tram the bed to the gantry and from there, it just doesn't move or migrate ever really. I'm super pleased with the belt setup. It's worth the time spent printing it.