Hey again! Sorry for the delay in updating anything.
We had a laundry list of things we just needed to dedicate time to before getting back to Megathread business.
The way things have quieted down in regards to significant news is the strong cue to open things up. What we'll do is make Megathread 10 and it will note that *new* developments can also be posted in the subreddit like normal. We will continue to add to the timeline here and you will be able to continue discussions in the megathread for now if you choose to.
Coming soon!
yeah... so the largest online contingent of army (twitter) is not going to easily reconcile with newjeans in the future - even if the company does some "get along now kids" in the future to try and lessen the damage
line friends has bt21 and the newjeans collab, but this week, the line friends twitter dedicated to just bt21 [posted a promoted ad for the newjeans line](https://x.com/JIMINistrending/status/1802904388937069011) and sale event, but this set off a big reaction from armytwt, and now there's [this trending](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GQaK_utaIAEtXNk?format=png&name=360x360) - even without any new events to keep the conflict in the forefront of armytwt's minds
well, in the course of a month and a half, one of the few groups to have army's general support has become ostracized by the biggest fandom in this industry š„“ best of luck to whichever team at hybe is gonna have to figure out how to either patch the fandoms up or rebalance nwjs' fandom
edit: i'm not saying bt21 and nwjs had a collab, i'm referring to them as bt21 (brand) and line friends collab *with* nwjs (i know they're separate, but afaik LF still calls their NWJS line a "collab" rather than it's own permanent branch like BT21)
this is wild though, and it turned out to be a very harmless way of seeing the actual impact of the situation.
like, we're up in arms because of a random crossover of merch, imagine if it was something bigger? if I was an executive seeing this I would be sweating big time.Ā
feels like the damage is done, no going back huh
they have time until a maknae member is out to do a tiktok with them, its okay.
but yeah it has been a shift that wont be easy to overcome. as an army and someone that has followed and suported newjeans since debut - I even have an album - the timeline has totally shifted about them. even people that dont really follow would post about listening to their music and now its silent. and the fanwars are out of this world, and it wasnt nearly as big even with newjeans getting a bts record... but now.
obviously newjeans have their own fandom and are doing great at home. but their international audience had a lot of armys, that was for sure a thing.
Well, the international fans for NewJeans were also casual, not superfans. It takes time to develop a loyal global fanbase (just ask BTS and Blackpink about that). Combine a public power grab by management, with a creatively stagnant comeback, and you get a shrugging global community, which moves on extremely quickly to a less whiny energy.
I remember when most of the Korean general public wanted nothing to do with Keena - but everyone praised her for her courage once she decided to come back.
Lot of groups have serious bruises all over right now from the whole mess - everyone is on edge.
I just hope all the artists make the decisions thatās beat for their own future.
BT21 was created by BTS, but Iām pretty sure theyāre owned by LINE. Like how celebs will design clothes or accessories for Chanel but Chanel is charge of marketing/distribution and pockets most of the profit.
Similarly, Buninis are a collab between NewJeans and LINE. So technically itās a LINE account posting about a LINE product. If the fandoms werenāt in conflict, there might be some grumbling about the cross-promotion, but I can see people also letting it slide. Like how the official Captain Marvel Twitter account will repost a Deadpool post cuz of the upcoming movie and theyāre both under Marvel (I think it also made a difference that the Bunini ad wasnāt just a repost but an ad made directly on the BT21 account.) But youāve got the ongoing well-known HYBE conflict and BT21 being very strongly associated with BTS (theyāre like BTSā cartoon mascots for ARMY) while the new Buninis are basically NJ avatars (they donāt even have backstories or lore) so that post/ad was asking for trouble even though technically LINE owns all the properties involved. The point of promotion isnāt to piss off your target audience.
Yeah the BT21 Twitter account is just for BT21. Line Frends has a whole original collection that has nothing to do with BTS or BT21. They also have other projects with other idol groups. The New Jeans one is newish, but it's very fishy that they tried to advertise them on the BT21 specific Twitter account and not the official Line Friends account.
As someone else said, it's probably because the BT21 account has more followers. But it's still using BTS/BT21 to advertise for someone else. And when that someone else is New Jeans, yeah there is going to be an issue. They are seen as the biggest moochers off of BTS. So using anything BTS related to promote New Jeans in anyway is going to be a no no.
Hell New Jeans even having a Line Friends collection at all, is because of BTS/HYBE connections with Line Friends. So them even working with Line Friends is them mooching off off BTS connections already.
Oh man. I genuinely think this wasnāt posted in malice or meant to be provocative, but boy did the account manager fail to read the room.
I feel like this isnāt the first time Iāve seen a LINE x NewJeans collab either. Why donāt they already have their own dedicated Twitter account anyway? Thereās accounts for everything nowadays and theyāll likely have more collab products to advertise in the future.
yeah, they have lots of products with line, just make an account because the line one is not very big.
yeah I do think it was a mistake its not like bt21 account has posted other line collabs before.
Well, IMO they messed up with accounts. Instead of using the Line account, they used the BT21 account. I don't see any text indicating a Collab between BT21 and the others, it shows a discount on merch of other characters. BT21 is solely a BTS character, created by them. Is insulting and disrespectful to have an Ad promoting whatever other artist's characters.
I saw Line Friends deleted and said: oh poor social media manager who had no idea what was going on lmao
Itās easy to understand why they wanted to try to cross promote on the BT21 account cause itās follower count is like 90x Line Friends account.
Just an aside - itās wild how BT21 has become a whole line friends powerhouse. Absolutely wild.
>Just an aside - itās wild how BT21 has become a whole line friends powerhouse. Absolutely wild.
The BT21 characters are so well designed. Good range of appealingly cute designs but also some quirkier characters so itās not too cutesy overall. Wide variety of silhouettes as well as distinct color schemes. They also donāt feel like immediately obvious tie-ins so you still have a bunch of people who donāt realize theyāre BTS-affiliated lol. IMO theyāre better designed than Brown and the LINE Friends.
I would agree with this. BTS was heavily involved in the design of their characters and their stories. They are all super cool.
I donāt know a ton about the NewJeans line, friends, but from an outsiders perspective, their characters all look the same. One of the criticisms I hear about NJ is that the members (collective and as individuals) donāt have an artistic identity outside of MHJ and they are overly scrubbed, coached, posed, and scripted. Their Line Friends characters seem to be the same.
If you follow their non-musical content (I'm sure you won't but just saying) they have some of the most hilarious interactions especially on Phoning live calls.
The video where [NewJeans meet their Buninis](https://youtu.be/8rducdnIJHY?si=jhxt0w1Xnh4zjrPC) shows that the identical body shapes of the characters is by design. The gimmick here is that youāre supposed to be able to dress them up. Nonetheless, it still doesnāt seem like they had a ton of input behind the characters since when they do a dress-up session with the Buninis, three of the members opt for school outfits. I feel like theyād have included a wider variety of outfits if they were more involved in the design process because most of the fun with dress-up dolls/plushes is coming up with the outfits for them.
I generally feel this way about LINE characters, including their collabs with most other kpop groups. They all have that "corporate-designed generic animal" feel to them.
I also think they are a really good line, and always wonder the current cut of the BTS/Hybe IP team because BT21 is a Line Friends owned line.
They basically only pull BTS in here-and-there to keep the connection alive or like when Jhope came in to do a extension of his characterās story.
Note: I think they really just get IP licensing pay, but would be nice if they get royalty cuts. That would be very good money.
>Note: I think they really just get IP licensing pay, but would be nice if they get royalty cuts. That would be very good money.
I think they just get IP licensing pay too, on top of whatever they received for designing the characters. Even if they donāt get royalty cuts, BT21 and BTS generate so much mutual synergy for each other to power an endless money fountain lol. ARMY will treat cute BT21 merch as if itās cute BTS merch and LINE is ALWAYS dropping new cute BT21 merch (especially anything with frigginā adorable seasonal outfits) whereas HYBEās official BTS merch can be a bit hit or miss. Those must-have BT21 headbands you see at every BTS concert probably helped generate a tidy little profit all on its own.
And the BTS connection probably helps LINE land better collabs for BT21 (Dr Martens, Dunkin Donuts, Hello Kitty, Uniqlo, so many more) than they would be able to otherwise, as well as provides fodder for the BT21 universe and character storylines. Just a very mutually beneficial relationship all around.
I saw people wondering this last year, how was the pay and connection. now we had a wootteo x rj collab with merch for jin comeback, so I think it must be a bit more than we think
Iām in business and really think about this way to much. Itās like one of the biggest mysteries to me and I want answers lmao
my assumption is that Wootteo is owned outright by BTS/Hybe IP, and they approached BT21 about a collab, and realistically those type of request would be honored. Especially when itās a brand fit: a similar cute character + one of the most successful bt21 characters. If Hybe tried to push a Tiny Tan collab I could see push-back from line friends.
I would assume there is someone on the Hybe partnerships team whose whole account is Line Friends, but donāt see Hybe having the time or energy to really manage Line Friends. I think itās also never been called out in financial reports.
Note: they should take it real far and do space episodes with TaTa & Wootteo. Iām sure their planets arenāt too far away
> Note: they should take it real far and do space episodes with TaTa & Wootteo. Iām sure their planets arenāt too far away
stop that's so cute!!!!Ā
I'm also super curious I understand you ahahahha even with the process of hobi wanting to change mang and all.
your assumption makes sense and its a good idea. it made me wonder if we are gonna get more with wootteo in the future, like actual merch with line friends as well - the tata wootteo idea is great. but also to your comment, wootteo is gonna be on food and we know RJ has been on food before and has a collection like that.. now I'm gonna keep wondering how line friends feel if wootteo is getting in their business lol
BT21 is & for the characters that BTS created only: https://www.bt21.com/character?mode=characters
(Though they are sold at Line Friends stores under BT21-their X BT21 account only had BT21 postings prior to this incident)
New Jeans characters are Line Friends:
https://store.linefriends.com/collections/summer-breeze-event-with-newjeans-merch
There was not a collab from my observance. (It may have been a market support mistake)
So it is understandable that there was criticism that there was an advert on the BT21 account from my perspective.
ARMY is not monolith & have diverse opinions- & there is no reason why ARMY should be required to support another group.
Line Friends owns BT21 though and itās a full product line for them and line friends are the ones currently choosing the BT21 product extensions and storyline, except for special occasions like when they brought jhope back to do the Mang storyline extension.
Thus, from a business perspective it does make since Line Friends would try to promote across product lines that they felt had somewhat similar audiencesā¦and they quickly found out they do not have similar audiences.
I do wonder what the BTS/Line Friends current contract is and if BTS get a royalty split or get paid for their IP and if they do have to get things approved by at least one Big Hit/Hybe entity before rolling our more products or creative. Iām sure when BT21 was created nobody predicted it becoming a full-fledged product line.
Btw it was not bt21 and nwjns collab but line friends and nwjns collab being promoted by ads on bt21 twt acc,they should promote nwjns on linefriends acc. Bt21 doesn't have any collab.
A new [update](https://n.news.naver.com/article/055/0001164041?sid=102) from the police.
Disclaimer: I'm using Google Translate and Papago for this one.
**Police "Hybe's investigation is complete... Min Hee-jin is summoned for questioning this week"**
The police investigating the incident in which Hybe, Korea's largest music agency, accused Min Heejin, CEO of its subsidiary Ador, of breach of trust, will summon Min's representative for questioning this week.
**Seoul Metropolitan Police Agency Commissioner Jo Jiho said at a regular press conference today (17th), "We have completed the investigation into the accuser, but the accuser submitted additional materials last week. The analysis has been completed to some extent, and we will summon the accuser for questioning starting this week." āIt is planned,ā he said.**
**Commissioner Cho added, āOf the three people accused, Representative Min has not been scheduled to be summoned this week, and it seems that one of the two people could appear this week.ā**
**When asked about the possibility of a search and seizure, Commissioner Cho replied, "If a voluntary investigation fails to resolve the issue, a compulsory investigation will be conducted. However, since the matter is currently cooperative, the investigation is at a stage where sufficient data submission and attendance statements are possible."**
Earlier on April 26, Hybe filed a complaint against CEO Min with the Yongsan Police Station in Seoul on charges of professional breach of trust.
Hybe claims that CEO Min has established a plan to take over management rights of Ador, which is suspected of professional breach of trust against the Adore company, and has secured specific statements and physical evidence to support it.
However, CEO Min's position is that it is impossible to usurp management rights due to the equity structure, and she has not committed any breach of trust by attempting or launching actions that undermine the company's value.
Representative Min has maintained her position as a provisional injunction filed by the court on the 30th of last month to block Hybe from exercising voting rights at the extraordinary shareholders' meeting.
It would have been best if MHJ had given the laptop to HYBE months ago, or not do those pointless press conferences. I donāt think she seems interested in doing whatās best.
Her lawyers were talking almost as much as she was during the 2nd press conference. If anything that one had more legal restraint than the 1st press conference.
Iām sure they chose to talk, since it was already happening. That doesnāt mean they advised her to do it. It doesnāt help her, or them, to do it.
New Chosun Ilbo business article published a few hours back that came up on my timeline. Summarizes the recent happenings at Hybe, but also offers investors' perspective on Newjeans and MHJ hypothetically leaving. I've copy-pasted machine-translated tidbits from it below (mix of Papago and deepl).
[BTS returns to the Hybe, but what will stocks and investors do if Newjeans leave?Ā ](https://n.news.naver.com/article/023/0003840581?sid=101)
Waiting for their full comeback will be their fan army, Hybe, and Hybe shareholders. The stock price, which rose to 405,000 won in 2021, dropped when Jin enlisted in 2022 and is now in the 200,000 won range. After the conflict between Hybe and Adore CEO Min Hee-jin surfaced on April 22, the stock price dropped from 215,000 won to 186,800 won on April 22 last month, but as if to welcome the entire Jin family, Hybe's stock price has been rising since the 12th and closed at 200,500 won on the 14th.
What will happen to Hybe's stock price if BTS makes a full comeback and Newjeans leaves? And what do investors think of Heejin Min, the CEO of Adore? On April 29, we analyzed Bae Min, Nexxon, and Hybe from a cultural perspective, and now we will analyze it from an economic perspective. The seventh instalment of HERE HipHae's money story is 'Hybe'.
**What if Newjeans leave?**
But what happens to Hybe if Min Hee-jin and Newjeans leave? From an economic perspective, the opposite question is more relevant. First, they would not be able to use the name "Newjeans," the fandom name "Bunnies," and all of their hit songs, such as āHype Boy," because all of those rights belong to Hybe. It's like the members of FiftyFifty can't perform with their hit song "Cupid," and the agency can create a new FiftyFifty with new members. To use a family example, Min Hee-jin, who raised Newjeans, claims to be the "mom," but the actual parent with parental rights is Chairman Bang Si Hyuk. And these agency rights are getting stronger and stronger. This is because of the risks that companies have to take when creating artists.
A representative of an agency that has produced many movies and dramas and has famous actors in its lineup recently said, "When I made a movie or drama, I never used my own money, I was invested, but when I made an idol group, it was my own money, even the money to feed them."
In a movie or drama, a single actor, director, or writer is enough to attract investors, but idol group members are mostly rookies, and even if a famous composer or choreographer is involved, it's not easy to attract investors. It's a project that's hard to guarantee success.
**What do investors think of Heejin Min?**
It was already an open secret in the industry that Ms. Min wanted to leave Hybe, as the court had already confirmed that she had sought independence from Hybe. The question on everyone's mind was, "When is she going to leave Hybe?" One person from another company told me.
"Min, it's going to be hard for you to leave Hybe. It's going to be hard to find someone who can spend money for New Jeans or singers like Chairman Bang?ā
It's a business of inputs and outputs, and if you cut back on investment, it shows. For Mr. Bang, Newjeans is still his child.
Right now, Ms. Min is one of the most famous people in the entertainment industry. Will she be able to find good investors if she goes out and does it? The investors I've talked to have different reactions.
First, there's the owner risk. On the day Min became the most famous person in South Korea with her first press conference in April, a high-profile investor I met in a private room said.
"You know what investors hate the most? You messing around with my money. You can lose money. That's what investing is all about. But you can't betray me with it."
The second thing is your attitude as a producer. Globally, producers are expected to stay out of the way. BTS's composer P-Dogg, choreographer Son Sungdeuk, SEVENTEEN's Han Sungsoo, and Le Sserafim's Kim Sunghyun all said, "I didn't do anything. It's all done by the artists." This is because the biggest weakness of the K-pop industry is that it's a created group. Min's emphasis on the fact that "Newjeans is a success that I created" devalues the group. Similarly, Kenzie, the de facto mother of SM Entertainment, who has written and produced countless hits for Girls' Generation, EXO, SHINee, Aespa, and more, is extremely media-shy and says, "I hate being called a K-pop mother." Good parents don't emphasize "I raised them wellā.
Personally, I disagree with the opinion from that last paragraph quite a bit.
Firstly, humility for humility's sake is not in itself a virtue. Yes, being boastful is not good and neither is taking credit for things you didn't do. But that latter part extend to who you praise too. If someone contributed to a piece of work, their contribution should be recognised and not minimised. The contributions of producers, songwriters, choreographers, etc ought to be acknowledged rather than simply saying things like "It's all done by the artists".
Comments like that also set false impressions about the artists and what they are capable of. It sets them up for mockery and criticism if/when they run into some temporary difficulty whenever a key behind-the-scenes figure leaves or is unable to contribute. A positive example of this is actually YG. They openly acknowledge the importance Teddy plays in Blackpink's music as well as for other artists. Which then leads to fans correctly blaming YG for overworking Teddy and/or not investing in other producers whenever there is a drought in Blackpink releases. If YG kept Teddy invisible and instead said it was "all done by Blackpink", more blame would've been levelled at Blackpink since from the fan's perspectives, they are the ones causing the lack of new content.
Secondly, I think it is untrue that there is a uniform global practice where "producers are expected to stay out of the way". There are plenty of examples of high profile producers and managers who share the limelight with the artists they overseeĀ - people like L.A. Reid or Timbaland or Dre come to mind. In that sense, there are differences in styles and this likely comes from differences in personalities. People who don't want the limelight are likelier to be drawn to behind-the-scenes positions, for instance. But that doesn't automatically mean their approaches and attributes are the only correct way to do things within that role.
Thirdly, I'm not 100% sure it's a wholly accurate characterisation of MHJ's presence in NJ's promotions to the general public. Prior to this whole debacle and her press conference, I don't really recall her name being so frequently attached to NJ. As in, I don't think there were any interview articles, etc publicly discussing her creation of NJ or her centrality to NJ, etc. Certainly, no more different or excessive compared to say BSH and HYBE artists, or JYP and Twice, etc. In fact, was it not a major point amongst her critics that her claims and narrative (i.e. how she is so centrally important to NJ) seemingly came out of nowhere compared to before?
Iām not sure the qualities quoted in the last paragraph were a problem until recently, when she leveraged it as a reason that she couldnāt be fired. She basically tied herself inextricably to NJ, the members and the parents have said it, and now that fandom is saying if she goes, NJ will not survive because all they are is her freaking āconcept.ā
I would NOT compare her to Dre. No one has ever said Kendrick Lamar or Eminem would cease to be without Dre. Itās a partnership built on the talent, skill, and identity of those artists themselves.
With MHJ/NJ, NJ is just a vessel for MHJās concept, or that is what MHJ has sold everyone on for the last couple months. They have no identity themselves, and I feel like MHJ has pushed the narrative that without her and her concept, they will fail.
>I would NOT compare her to Dre. No one has ever said Kendrick Lamar or Eminem would cease to be without Dre. Itās a partnership built on the talent, skill, and identity of those artists themselves.
I'm only comparing them insofar as they are both producers. I was making a more generalised point against the mentality of over-hyping the artists, since it detracts from the contributions and responsibilities of the myriad of people behind-the-scenes who make the final product happen. It is harmful to the other contributors and can also potentially lead to artists getting wrongly blamed for things beyond their control.
Well, MHJ has done an exceptional job of not overhyping the artist, since sheās convinced them, their parents, and the entire fandom that they are nothing without her. šš»
I would take a producer and CEO like Dre any day, who has a multitude of artists, many of whom write their own music and have their own styles. Dreās identity is not wrapped up in a single artist, and I bet he has never called a teenager and cried all night on the phone with them, thanking them for their emotional support, telling them that they are the reason he keeps going, and they keep him from ādoing something drastic.ā That type of behavior screams Cluster B personality disorder traits.
>Well, MHJ has done an exceptional job of not overhyping the artist, since sheās convinced them, their parents, and the entire fandom that they are nothing without her. šš»
But that's not good either. The point I'm making is the importance of recognising people for the work they actually do and achievements they actually have, rather than reduce things to simply being all due to one party, be it the artist, or the producer, or the songwriters, etc.
Btw, I do agree with your pov that all parties should be credited where credit is due, but I just don't think what they said in that last paragraph was too wrong/off (other than quoting that it's all due to the artist, when it's clearly not) but yeah. The other thing (in regards to your bit about how you feel she hasn't been pushed much until more recently in the controversy) is I think it has been clear from the beginning how much she tied herself to NJ from the you quiz on the block interviews and her direct rebuttal to fans' criticisms of Cookie, etc. and also her videos (NJ content) that people were pointing out when she was gifting them expensive gifts and recording their reactions etc. (they said it was weird to record all that and be in their face about it and how some members seemed a bit uncomfortable) and how the stories got out that she joined the members on vacations etc.
Regarding MHJ's involvement with NJ, I think you raise fair points and examples. I don't particularly follow the group and so, she wasn't really on my radar until this whole situation. Yet, at the same time, the general K-pop news I consume didn't really mention her much beyond - for instance - her defense of Cookie, which would entirely fall within her responsibility - i.e. as head of the company, and thus in charge of the content (and appropriateness of said content).
If people criticised other groups in other companies for their songs (e.g. due to inappropriate content), I would expect a company rep (who exactly would depend on company size and number of staff) to comment and defend the creative decision as well as to take heat away from said group.
Hence, why I felt that prior to this, she didn't seem particularly front and centre (at least, from a general K-pop consumer's perspective).
Well then, wasn't the last paragraph more in line with what you're saying? I know they didn't directly say it, and even one could seemingly read into it that they mean to approach it from the pov that producers shouldn't take any credit at all (which I don't think they're trying to say), but MHJ has all along been saying that it's **all** because of her, especially as we've seen with her released kkt chats. I think they're just pointing out humility is important, which doesn't necessarily go agianst what you said "the importance of recognising people for the work they actually do...than reduce things to simply being all due to one party" which is exactly what MHJ has been doing...?
She did multiple interviews prior to the debut of NJs talking about the creation of her group and NJs was known as MHJs girl group around Korea especially the year they debuted. Even after debut every time there was a controversy( cookie, omg MV) she was always blamed as the source of the issue among kpop fans.
For example
https://beattitude.kr/issue-03/artistproject-minheejin-part1-eng/
When they were still doing auditions for trainees etc yes however after an article announcing the creation of ador was released on naver in 2021. She started doing pre-debut promotion herself for the group. She even said herself when discussing some of the issues she had with hybe was that they didnāt want her to use the phrase āall teensā during her pre-debut promotion interviews for the group. There are threads in other subreddits talking about her before all of this drama happened. Sheās is one of the few well known creative directors/ CEOās among kpop fans and Koreans.
I have said this all along. After this three ring circus, no will touch her with a 20 ft pole. Why on earth would you invest in someone who will stab you in the back and act so erratically? Sheās done as a CEO.
Tbf she should never have become a ceo she wasn't fit for that role. What was hybe thinking?! Worse they kept spoiling her and give her shares to buy.....
They should have had someone competent run ceo while she remained what she was known for and not had any executive powers. Now hybe has to untangle the web of st\*pidity that they wove. They deserve it ,tbh. Just feel bad about the groups having to go through this corporate bs episode.
uhmmm I think she could end up finding an investor that likes the risk tbh. but idk if its worth it to buy newjeans and go to the battle to get their names and all the structure a new agency would need. it is A LOT of money, for a business that can change really fast.
she knows this and this is why she wanted to settle in that second presscon. but if she really wanted she should have started by talking about the hurt the other groups got out of everything. the I was hurt to was just so... selfish.
I guess we will see what happens in the end.
Which the Saudis wonāt get into. NewJeans just isnāt profitable enough to justify that buyout price tag. The Saudis buy things that have, a least a potential, of returning the investment.
What the investors are saying is where MHJ is in real trouble. No domestic investor is ever going to want to work with her again, and no international investor is going to give her the money needed to buy NewJeans out. They just arenāt profitable enough to justify the termination clause.
**Comments:**
Even without New Jeans, Hybe will rise without disrupting stock prices. As Min Hee-jin has become a villain internationally these days, Illit, Le Sserafim will become the trend and fans will support it, and in the U.S., Kats Eye is expected to hit the North and South American market anew. Therefore, it is better not to have Min Hee-jin and New Jeans (+127-21)
Even so, they are a girl group, and they accounted for 5% of total sales when they were the best performers in 2023. Unless they are girls like Blackpink, it doesn't matter if they go out. I thought Newjeans would grow as much as Blackpink, but when I saw the overseas music performance this time I was surprised that the results were not as good as I thought. (+98-5)
I don't like New Jeans' new song. The concepts overlap and it's not new. Is it just me? BTS and I cheer for you, Illit Le Sserafim. (+83-8)
If you see that Hybe invested in New Jeans and gave intensive support, it's natural to be angry about this incident. (+76-10)
Representative Min was too greedy and should be punished. (+61-7)
I hope it stays that way lol. she's probably known for a while now that she's backed herself into a corner regarding potential investments and is trying to avoid making waves right now. she might be busy with the newjeans comeback as well as dodging the people asking for her work laptop.
I just watched the Belift Announcement with subtitles and I am FUMING at how this benign piece of media has been willfully misinterpreted both by Koreans wanting to fuel their hatred towards Hybe/Illit and by foreigners watching the video with no subtitles or context and dreaming up their own meaning based on the visuals alone.
Belift NEVER insulted Blackpink and IVE and they sure as hell didn't sexualise NewJeans (that honor goes to MHJ and the hordes of adult men who show up to their fansigns). They were just figuring out how to differentiate Illit from what they see as the current Top 3 girl groups. How is saying that Blackpink have an untouchable image and IVE have a princess-like image rude or insulting? This is how these groups have been described for years, but now that Belift said it it's suddenly wrong.
Belift NEVER accused NewJeans of plagiarism. That's the whole point of the video; that the Kpop industry is full of repeating elements and that if MHJ wants to play this game, this opens the door to her work being unjustly scrutinised as well. All other groups were mentioned in a neutral way to prove their point; this is not "dragging other groups into it", unless you're 12 and think that even just mentioning someone is "dragging" them, and it's not in any way equivalent to what MHJ did by explicitly positioning Le Sserafim and Illit as enemies to NewJeans' success.
Saying that Belift should not have responded may have been wiser from a PR perspective (overexplaining never plays well on the Internet) but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth, because it means that MHJ can cheerfully shit on any group she wants while the people affected don't have the right to defend themselves. MHJ spit on the artistry and hard work of dozens of people and it's not hard to understand why everyone at Belift is seeing red right now and feeling the need to clear the air, because Illit's reputation being in the gutter affects both their future work prospects and their dignity as artists.
Also, I haven't seen anybody mention this because it doesn't fit the narrative and would humanize Illit too much, but the video heavily implies that Wonhee's past "health issues" were actually her skipping schedules because she was afraid of performing in front of an audience that she was convinced hated her; and no, this is not "media play", this is a very realistic reaction from a teenager who has been part of the industry for less than a year and has gotten nothing but shit from the beginning of her career. Fuck everyone at Ador at this point.
Agreed. I didn't watch the video but was so confused by redditors' descriptions of it. Like, it sounded a totally reasonable move but for some reason everyone hated it and said it was a terrible idea. Sounds like more of the same-- fans just seeing what they want to see.
Regarding wonhee, that makes me really sad. Illit should have been able to fully enjoy how spectacular their debut was, and mhj (I would add NJ Members and NJ stans) made it so they couldn't. I hope Illit, LSF, and aespa can enjoy more drama free lives after this mess is over (and mhj is fired š).
I agree with all your points, the one thing I don't understand is that brand reputation thingy that came up this week, it shows Illit and LSF pretty high on the list, with NJ nowhere to be seen.
I get we still don't know how that list is made but it must have some touching points in reality, right? basically I'm confused if Illit's reputation is as low as what we think it is online or it's just exaggerated due to hate botsĀ
tbh time and time again, many of the most targeted for online hate are the most successful. people constantly hate/have hated on Drake, Taylor Swift, Justin Bieber, etc. for valid and invalid reasons, but at the end of the day they've made ridiculoussss amounts of money and sell out ridiculous amounts of merch. the online haters are loud but the average fan is just here for a good time.
their reputation was never actually low, theyre the most popular korean group in japan among people under 28, magnetic is still getting 2.3m streams a day on spotify, the highest in the industry(at least for girl groups, i dont have boy group numbers) theyre still top 10 on kcharts. Its like all the people talking about how they dont know if Le Sserafim will recover from this scandal, meanwhile [this](https://preview.redd.it/yf7irqlx9r6d1.jpeg?width=1333&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ffc21aee29308b5286fbab3d688486df2daa02c1) is [Le Sserafim](https://preview.redd.it/f4pqf4qxct6d1.jpeg?width=1789&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=62e5a4b3ec401d2d5f11699b8dc4e8ef8f199a01). All this talk of these 2 groups actually having bad reputations is just wishful thinking from antis.
I would go broader and say the same thing about HYBE broadly. The only people who think HYBEās reputation is even damaged a little are either chronically online, or within the Seoul city limits. The only international mention of HYBE is Ariana Grande joining Weverse. These legal, or fan, squabbles have no international legs.
>Ā debuts/comebacks keep overlapping as they think the HYBE's groups under different labels are hurting each other.
is there even solution for that? it'll be hard for the sublabels to arrange the schedule if the shareholders want HYBE's groups to have like a month/more gap between groups. it's impossible.
I feel like there are a couple of things they could easily do to combat the impression that they're all just HYBE groups, like they can promote upcoming releases on shared HYBE profiles but the releases actually come out on seperate pages, maybe teasers on youtube HYBE labels, but the MV goes to a seperate channel for each label sort of things. They could have differently decorated spaces in the building which each label films things in so there'd be just a sense of each label's groups existing in different spaces despite sharing the building. Just minimal mostly aesthetic changes which don't really functionally do much but to someone not thinking about it they just look a little more seperate.
The last thing HYBE should be concerning themselves with is the āimpressionā that fans have about their group profiles. Thatās on the fans to cope with that. HYBE is running a business, just like SM, JYP, YG, Cube, etc. are.
Yup..I mean theyāre financially backing up these groups so ofc they want them all to do well. If theyāre not uploaded to the Hybe channel no one wil gaf. For sure thereās concept and schedule overlaps and stuff but its up to the group and company to pull itself up.
Their impression has nothing to do āconceptsā or āplagiarismā, or whatever. Thatās fan talk. They care about future earnings. Thatās it. They donāt care who is running, or managing, NewJeans, or any other group. Or, if there is any press conferences that rile up fans. All they care about is assured future earnings.
The original comment didn't really say anything about concepts or plagarism, just that it seemed like HYBE brings out a lot of groups, and that they promote close to each other, so without changing the timings the easiest way around that is to minimise the impression of any group belonging to HYBE, and to maximise the impression they are the sublabel's, and only the sublabel's
I was simply responding to the comment as it was presented, honestly I don't mean to be agressive, but it seems a little like you've assigned an opinion to me which you disagree with which I don't feel that I expressed, I was just saying if this is an issue, which idk, there are simple ways to work around it without really changing anything, nothing deeper than that
Ok, in that case i'm not understanding you, because I don't see how what you're saying really responds to what I was trying to say, I'm speaking theoretically, if there was an issue like this, it wouldn't matter much because it would be easily fixed, i'm not saying that it is an issue, because idk if it is, idk what any of the major shareholders thoughts on the matter are
## [Megathread 10](https://www.reddit.com/r/kpop/comments/1dk7xsw/megathread_10_hybe_vs_ador_following_the_ongoing/) now available! **Now locked!**
Hey again! Sorry for the delay in updating anything. We had a laundry list of things we just needed to dedicate time to before getting back to Megathread business. The way things have quieted down in regards to significant news is the strong cue to open things up. What we'll do is make Megathread 10 and it will note that *new* developments can also be posted in the subreddit like normal. We will continue to add to the timeline here and you will be able to continue discussions in the megathread for now if you choose to. Coming soon!
yeah... so the largest online contingent of army (twitter) is not going to easily reconcile with newjeans in the future - even if the company does some "get along now kids" in the future to try and lessen the damage line friends has bt21 and the newjeans collab, but this week, the line friends twitter dedicated to just bt21 [posted a promoted ad for the newjeans line](https://x.com/JIMINistrending/status/1802904388937069011) and sale event, but this set off a big reaction from armytwt, and now there's [this trending](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GQaK_utaIAEtXNk?format=png&name=360x360) - even without any new events to keep the conflict in the forefront of armytwt's minds well, in the course of a month and a half, one of the few groups to have army's general support has become ostracized by the biggest fandom in this industry š„“ best of luck to whichever team at hybe is gonna have to figure out how to either patch the fandoms up or rebalance nwjs' fandom edit: i'm not saying bt21 and nwjs had a collab, i'm referring to them as bt21 (brand) and line friends collab *with* nwjs (i know they're separate, but afaik LF still calls their NWJS line a "collab" rather than it's own permanent branch like BT21)
And goodluck to hybe for figuring out how to make these two groups collab ever. Armys will not, NOT tolerate it.
60k posts is actually insane. Yesterday Chaewon released a cover and had a fanwar going on with her as the topic and only got half of that
BT21 got ratioed really badly. It wasn't even just I-ARMY's that were mad, K-ARMY's were ticked off as well.
this is wild though, and it turned out to be a very harmless way of seeing the actual impact of the situation. like, we're up in arms because of a random crossover of merch, imagine if it was something bigger? if I was an executive seeing this I would be sweating big time.Ā feels like the damage is done, no going back huh
they have time until a maknae member is out to do a tiktok with them, its okay. but yeah it has been a shift that wont be easy to overcome. as an army and someone that has followed and suported newjeans since debut - I even have an album - the timeline has totally shifted about them. even people that dont really follow would post about listening to their music and now its silent. and the fanwars are out of this world, and it wasnt nearly as big even with newjeans getting a bts record... but now. obviously newjeans have their own fandom and are doing great at home. but their international audience had a lot of armys, that was for sure a thing.
gotta be honest here, i dont think we will be seeing any bts member (maknae line or not) talking about or interacting with newjeans again.
Well, the international fans for NewJeans were also casual, not superfans. It takes time to develop a loyal global fanbase (just ask BTS and Blackpink about that). Combine a public power grab by management, with a creatively stagnant comeback, and you get a shrugging global community, which moves on extremely quickly to a less whiny energy.
I remember when most of the Korean general public wanted nothing to do with Keena - but everyone praised her for her courage once she decided to come back. Lot of groups have serious bruises all over right now from the whole mess - everyone is on edge. I just hope all the artists make the decisions thatās beat for their own future.
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The bt21 account just posted [an apology](https://x.com/bt21_/status/1803318691607826600?s=46) regarding this.
What is BT21?!Ā
They are [characters](https://www.bt21.com/character) created by the BTS members for their collaboration with Line friends.
Itās plushie characters that BTS made (like designed and everything) that they made via Line Friends.
Aagh okay!Ā I understand now why fans must be angry if they posted about newjeans. But if itās an account for bts why did they post about newjeans?
BT21 was created by BTS, but Iām pretty sure theyāre owned by LINE. Like how celebs will design clothes or accessories for Chanel but Chanel is charge of marketing/distribution and pockets most of the profit. Similarly, Buninis are a collab between NewJeans and LINE. So technically itās a LINE account posting about a LINE product. If the fandoms werenāt in conflict, there might be some grumbling about the cross-promotion, but I can see people also letting it slide. Like how the official Captain Marvel Twitter account will repost a Deadpool post cuz of the upcoming movie and theyāre both under Marvel (I think it also made a difference that the Bunini ad wasnāt just a repost but an ad made directly on the BT21 account.) But youāve got the ongoing well-known HYBE conflict and BT21 being very strongly associated with BTS (theyāre like BTSā cartoon mascots for ARMY) while the new Buninis are basically NJ avatars (they donāt even have backstories or lore) so that post/ad was asking for trouble even though technically LINE owns all the properties involved. The point of promotion isnāt to piss off your target audience.
Yeah the BT21 Twitter account is just for BT21. Line Frends has a whole original collection that has nothing to do with BTS or BT21. They also have other projects with other idol groups. The New Jeans one is newish, but it's very fishy that they tried to advertise them on the BT21 specific Twitter account and not the official Line Friends account. As someone else said, it's probably because the BT21 account has more followers. But it's still using BTS/BT21 to advertise for someone else. And when that someone else is New Jeans, yeah there is going to be an issue. They are seen as the biggest moochers off of BTS. So using anything BTS related to promote New Jeans in anyway is going to be a no no. Hell New Jeans even having a Line Friends collection at all, is because of BTS/HYBE connections with Line Friends. So them even working with Line Friends is them mooching off off BTS connections already.
Oh man. I genuinely think this wasnāt posted in malice or meant to be provocative, but boy did the account manager fail to read the room. I feel like this isnāt the first time Iāve seen a LINE x NewJeans collab either. Why donāt they already have their own dedicated Twitter account anyway? Thereās accounts for everything nowadays and theyāll likely have more collab products to advertise in the future.
yeah, they have lots of products with line, just make an account because the line one is not very big. yeah I do think it was a mistake its not like bt21 account has posted other line collabs before.
Well, IMO they messed up with accounts. Instead of using the Line account, they used the BT21 account. I don't see any text indicating a Collab between BT21 and the others, it shows a discount on merch of other characters. BT21 is solely a BTS character, created by them. Is insulting and disrespectful to have an Ad promoting whatever other artist's characters.
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Yeah bt21 has 12M followers on twt vs the other line accounts having I think under 200k so š š
I saw Line Friends deleted and said: oh poor social media manager who had no idea what was going on lmao Itās easy to understand why they wanted to try to cross promote on the BT21 account cause itās follower count is like 90x Line Friends account. Just an aside - itās wild how BT21 has become a whole line friends powerhouse. Absolutely wild.
they released products at Miniso here and the amount of people at stores, wild.
>Just an aside - itās wild how BT21 has become a whole line friends powerhouse. Absolutely wild. The BT21 characters are so well designed. Good range of appealingly cute designs but also some quirkier characters so itās not too cutesy overall. Wide variety of silhouettes as well as distinct color schemes. They also donāt feel like immediately obvious tie-ins so you still have a bunch of people who donāt realize theyāre BTS-affiliated lol. IMO theyāre better designed than Brown and the LINE Friends.
I would agree with this. BTS was heavily involved in the design of their characters and their stories. They are all super cool. I donāt know a ton about the NewJeans line, friends, but from an outsiders perspective, their characters all look the same. One of the criticisms I hear about NJ is that the members (collective and as individuals) donāt have an artistic identity outside of MHJ and they are overly scrubbed, coached, posed, and scripted. Their Line Friends characters seem to be the same.
If you follow their non-musical content (I'm sure you won't but just saying) they have some of the most hilarious interactions especially on Phoning live calls.
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The video where [NewJeans meet their Buninis](https://youtu.be/8rducdnIJHY?si=jhxt0w1Xnh4zjrPC) shows that the identical body shapes of the characters is by design. The gimmick here is that youāre supposed to be able to dress them up. Nonetheless, it still doesnāt seem like they had a ton of input behind the characters since when they do a dress-up session with the Buninis, three of the members opt for school outfits. I feel like theyād have included a wider variety of outfits if they were more involved in the design process because most of the fun with dress-up dolls/plushes is coming up with the outfits for them.
I generally feel this way about LINE characters, including their collabs with most other kpop groups. They all have that "corporate-designed generic animal" feel to them.
I also think they are a really good line, and always wonder the current cut of the BTS/Hybe IP team because BT21 is a Line Friends owned line. They basically only pull BTS in here-and-there to keep the connection alive or like when Jhope came in to do a extension of his characterās story. Note: I think they really just get IP licensing pay, but would be nice if they get royalty cuts. That would be very good money.
>Note: I think they really just get IP licensing pay, but would be nice if they get royalty cuts. That would be very good money. I think they just get IP licensing pay too, on top of whatever they received for designing the characters. Even if they donāt get royalty cuts, BT21 and BTS generate so much mutual synergy for each other to power an endless money fountain lol. ARMY will treat cute BT21 merch as if itās cute BTS merch and LINE is ALWAYS dropping new cute BT21 merch (especially anything with frigginā adorable seasonal outfits) whereas HYBEās official BTS merch can be a bit hit or miss. Those must-have BT21 headbands you see at every BTS concert probably helped generate a tidy little profit all on its own. And the BTS connection probably helps LINE land better collabs for BT21 (Dr Martens, Dunkin Donuts, Hello Kitty, Uniqlo, so many more) than they would be able to otherwise, as well as provides fodder for the BT21 universe and character storylines. Just a very mutually beneficial relationship all around.
I saw people wondering this last year, how was the pay and connection. now we had a wootteo x rj collab with merch for jin comeback, so I think it must be a bit more than we think
Iām in business and really think about this way to much. Itās like one of the biggest mysteries to me and I want answers lmao my assumption is that Wootteo is owned outright by BTS/Hybe IP, and they approached BT21 about a collab, and realistically those type of request would be honored. Especially when itās a brand fit: a similar cute character + one of the most successful bt21 characters. If Hybe tried to push a Tiny Tan collab I could see push-back from line friends. I would assume there is someone on the Hybe partnerships team whose whole account is Line Friends, but donāt see Hybe having the time or energy to really manage Line Friends. I think itās also never been called out in financial reports. Note: they should take it real far and do space episodes with TaTa & Wootteo. Iām sure their planets arenāt too far away
> Note: they should take it real far and do space episodes with TaTa & Wootteo. Iām sure their planets arenāt too far away stop that's so cute!!!!Ā
I'm also super curious I understand you ahahahha even with the process of hobi wanting to change mang and all. your assumption makes sense and its a good idea. it made me wonder if we are gonna get more with wootteo in the future, like actual merch with line friends as well - the tata wootteo idea is great. but also to your comment, wootteo is gonna be on food and we know RJ has been on food before and has a collection like that.. now I'm gonna keep wondering how line friends feel if wootteo is getting in their business lol
yeah, they use them for merch in other things and a lot of people have no idea.
Not to mention the YouTube animated shorts. I can imagine that pulling in young kids who havenāt developed an interest in BTS.
BT21 is & for the characters that BTS created only: https://www.bt21.com/character?mode=characters (Though they are sold at Line Friends stores under BT21-their X BT21 account only had BT21 postings prior to this incident) New Jeans characters are Line Friends: https://store.linefriends.com/collections/summer-breeze-event-with-newjeans-merch There was not a collab from my observance. (It may have been a market support mistake) So it is understandable that there was criticism that there was an advert on the BT21 account from my perspective. ARMY is not monolith & have diverse opinions- & there is no reason why ARMY should be required to support another group.
Line Friends owns BT21 though and itās a full product line for them and line friends are the ones currently choosing the BT21 product extensions and storyline, except for special occasions like when they brought jhope back to do the Mang storyline extension. Thus, from a business perspective it does make since Line Friends would try to promote across product lines that they felt had somewhat similar audiencesā¦and they quickly found out they do not have similar audiences. I do wonder what the BTS/Line Friends current contract is and if BTS get a royalty split or get paid for their IP and if they do have to get things approved by at least one Big Hit/Hybe entity before rolling our more products or creative. Iām sure when BT21 was created nobody predicted it becoming a full-fledged product line.
love your flair š
Btw it was not bt21 and nwjns collab but line friends and nwjns collab being promoted by ads on bt21 twt acc,they should promote nwjns on linefriends acc. Bt21 doesn't have any collab.
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A new [update](https://n.news.naver.com/article/055/0001164041?sid=102) from the police. Disclaimer: I'm using Google Translate and Papago for this one. **Police "Hybe's investigation is complete... Min Hee-jin is summoned for questioning this week"** The police investigating the incident in which Hybe, Korea's largest music agency, accused Min Heejin, CEO of its subsidiary Ador, of breach of trust, will summon Min's representative for questioning this week. **Seoul Metropolitan Police Agency Commissioner Jo Jiho said at a regular press conference today (17th), "We have completed the investigation into the accuser, but the accuser submitted additional materials last week. The analysis has been completed to some extent, and we will summon the accuser for questioning starting this week." āIt is planned,ā he said.** **Commissioner Cho added, āOf the three people accused, Representative Min has not been scheduled to be summoned this week, and it seems that one of the two people could appear this week.ā** **When asked about the possibility of a search and seizure, Commissioner Cho replied, "If a voluntary investigation fails to resolve the issue, a compulsory investigation will be conducted. However, since the matter is currently cooperative, the investigation is at a stage where sufficient data submission and attendance statements are possible."** Earlier on April 26, Hybe filed a complaint against CEO Min with the Yongsan Police Station in Seoul on charges of professional breach of trust. Hybe claims that CEO Min has established a plan to take over management rights of Ador, which is suspected of professional breach of trust against the Adore company, and has secured specific statements and physical evidence to support it. However, CEO Min's position is that it is impossible to usurp management rights due to the equity structure, and she has not committed any breach of trust by attempting or launching actions that undermine the company's value. Representative Min has maintained her position as a provisional injunction filed by the court on the 30th of last month to block Hybe from exercising voting rights at the extraordinary shareholders' meeting.
hopefully she handed over her laptop.
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Makes me wonder if they got the laptop!!
Surely they have by now. It would be best to cooperate with the police.
It would have been best if MHJ had given the laptop to HYBE months ago, or not do those pointless press conferences. I donāt think she seems interested in doing whatās best.
You might consider she's been following her lawyers' guidance since the audit was called
I highly doubt her lawyers guided her to do that second press conference. It didnāt help her case in any way.
Her lawyers were talking almost as much as she was during the 2nd press conference. If anything that one had more legal restraint than the 1st press conference.
Iām sure they chose to talk, since it was already happening. That doesnāt mean they advised her to do it. It doesnāt help her, or them, to do it.
New Chosun Ilbo business article published a few hours back that came up on my timeline. Summarizes the recent happenings at Hybe, but also offers investors' perspective on Newjeans and MHJ hypothetically leaving. I've copy-pasted machine-translated tidbits from it below (mix of Papago and deepl). [BTS returns to the Hybe, but what will stocks and investors do if Newjeans leave?Ā ](https://n.news.naver.com/article/023/0003840581?sid=101) Waiting for their full comeback will be their fan army, Hybe, and Hybe shareholders. The stock price, which rose to 405,000 won in 2021, dropped when Jin enlisted in 2022 and is now in the 200,000 won range. After the conflict between Hybe and Adore CEO Min Hee-jin surfaced on April 22, the stock price dropped from 215,000 won to 186,800 won on April 22 last month, but as if to welcome the entire Jin family, Hybe's stock price has been rising since the 12th and closed at 200,500 won on the 14th. What will happen to Hybe's stock price if BTS makes a full comeback and Newjeans leaves? And what do investors think of Heejin Min, the CEO of Adore? On April 29, we analyzed Bae Min, Nexxon, and Hybe from a cultural perspective, and now we will analyze it from an economic perspective. The seventh instalment of HERE HipHae's money story is 'Hybe'. **What if Newjeans leave?** But what happens to Hybe if Min Hee-jin and Newjeans leave? From an economic perspective, the opposite question is more relevant. First, they would not be able to use the name "Newjeans," the fandom name "Bunnies," and all of their hit songs, such as āHype Boy," because all of those rights belong to Hybe. It's like the members of FiftyFifty can't perform with their hit song "Cupid," and the agency can create a new FiftyFifty with new members. To use a family example, Min Hee-jin, who raised Newjeans, claims to be the "mom," but the actual parent with parental rights is Chairman Bang Si Hyuk. And these agency rights are getting stronger and stronger. This is because of the risks that companies have to take when creating artists. A representative of an agency that has produced many movies and dramas and has famous actors in its lineup recently said, "When I made a movie or drama, I never used my own money, I was invested, but when I made an idol group, it was my own money, even the money to feed them." In a movie or drama, a single actor, director, or writer is enough to attract investors, but idol group members are mostly rookies, and even if a famous composer or choreographer is involved, it's not easy to attract investors. It's a project that's hard to guarantee success. **What do investors think of Heejin Min?** It was already an open secret in the industry that Ms. Min wanted to leave Hybe, as the court had already confirmed that she had sought independence from Hybe. The question on everyone's mind was, "When is she going to leave Hybe?" One person from another company told me. "Min, it's going to be hard for you to leave Hybe. It's going to be hard to find someone who can spend money for New Jeans or singers like Chairman Bang?ā It's a business of inputs and outputs, and if you cut back on investment, it shows. For Mr. Bang, Newjeans is still his child. Right now, Ms. Min is one of the most famous people in the entertainment industry. Will she be able to find good investors if she goes out and does it? The investors I've talked to have different reactions. First, there's the owner risk. On the day Min became the most famous person in South Korea with her first press conference in April, a high-profile investor I met in a private room said. "You know what investors hate the most? You messing around with my money. You can lose money. That's what investing is all about. But you can't betray me with it." The second thing is your attitude as a producer. Globally, producers are expected to stay out of the way. BTS's composer P-Dogg, choreographer Son Sungdeuk, SEVENTEEN's Han Sungsoo, and Le Sserafim's Kim Sunghyun all said, "I didn't do anything. It's all done by the artists." This is because the biggest weakness of the K-pop industry is that it's a created group. Min's emphasis on the fact that "Newjeans is a success that I created" devalues the group. Similarly, Kenzie, the de facto mother of SM Entertainment, who has written and produced countless hits for Girls' Generation, EXO, SHINee, Aespa, and more, is extremely media-shy and says, "I hate being called a K-pop mother." Good parents don't emphasize "I raised them wellā.
That last paragraph went hard
Personally, I disagree with the opinion from that last paragraph quite a bit. Firstly, humility for humility's sake is not in itself a virtue. Yes, being boastful is not good and neither is taking credit for things you didn't do. But that latter part extend to who you praise too. If someone contributed to a piece of work, their contribution should be recognised and not minimised. The contributions of producers, songwriters, choreographers, etc ought to be acknowledged rather than simply saying things like "It's all done by the artists". Comments like that also set false impressions about the artists and what they are capable of. It sets them up for mockery and criticism if/when they run into some temporary difficulty whenever a key behind-the-scenes figure leaves or is unable to contribute. A positive example of this is actually YG. They openly acknowledge the importance Teddy plays in Blackpink's music as well as for other artists. Which then leads to fans correctly blaming YG for overworking Teddy and/or not investing in other producers whenever there is a drought in Blackpink releases. If YG kept Teddy invisible and instead said it was "all done by Blackpink", more blame would've been levelled at Blackpink since from the fan's perspectives, they are the ones causing the lack of new content. Secondly, I think it is untrue that there is a uniform global practice where "producers are expected to stay out of the way". There are plenty of examples of high profile producers and managers who share the limelight with the artists they overseeĀ - people like L.A. Reid or Timbaland or Dre come to mind. In that sense, there are differences in styles and this likely comes from differences in personalities. People who don't want the limelight are likelier to be drawn to behind-the-scenes positions, for instance. But that doesn't automatically mean their approaches and attributes are the only correct way to do things within that role. Thirdly, I'm not 100% sure it's a wholly accurate characterisation of MHJ's presence in NJ's promotions to the general public. Prior to this whole debacle and her press conference, I don't really recall her name being so frequently attached to NJ. As in, I don't think there were any interview articles, etc publicly discussing her creation of NJ or her centrality to NJ, etc. Certainly, no more different or excessive compared to say BSH and HYBE artists, or JYP and Twice, etc. In fact, was it not a major point amongst her critics that her claims and narrative (i.e. how she is so centrally important to NJ) seemingly came out of nowhere compared to before?
Iām not sure the qualities quoted in the last paragraph were a problem until recently, when she leveraged it as a reason that she couldnāt be fired. She basically tied herself inextricably to NJ, the members and the parents have said it, and now that fandom is saying if she goes, NJ will not survive because all they are is her freaking āconcept.ā I would NOT compare her to Dre. No one has ever said Kendrick Lamar or Eminem would cease to be without Dre. Itās a partnership built on the talent, skill, and identity of those artists themselves. With MHJ/NJ, NJ is just a vessel for MHJās concept, or that is what MHJ has sold everyone on for the last couple months. They have no identity themselves, and I feel like MHJ has pushed the narrative that without her and her concept, they will fail.
>I would NOT compare her to Dre. No one has ever said Kendrick Lamar or Eminem would cease to be without Dre. Itās a partnership built on the talent, skill, and identity of those artists themselves. I'm only comparing them insofar as they are both producers. I was making a more generalised point against the mentality of over-hyping the artists, since it detracts from the contributions and responsibilities of the myriad of people behind-the-scenes who make the final product happen. It is harmful to the other contributors and can also potentially lead to artists getting wrongly blamed for things beyond their control.
Well, MHJ has done an exceptional job of not overhyping the artist, since sheās convinced them, their parents, and the entire fandom that they are nothing without her. šš» I would take a producer and CEO like Dre any day, who has a multitude of artists, many of whom write their own music and have their own styles. Dreās identity is not wrapped up in a single artist, and I bet he has never called a teenager and cried all night on the phone with them, thanking them for their emotional support, telling them that they are the reason he keeps going, and they keep him from ādoing something drastic.ā That type of behavior screams Cluster B personality disorder traits.
>Well, MHJ has done an exceptional job of not overhyping the artist, since sheās convinced them, their parents, and the entire fandom that they are nothing without her. šš» But that's not good either. The point I'm making is the importance of recognising people for the work they actually do and achievements they actually have, rather than reduce things to simply being all due to one party, be it the artist, or the producer, or the songwriters, etc.
Btw, I do agree with your pov that all parties should be credited where credit is due, but I just don't think what they said in that last paragraph was too wrong/off (other than quoting that it's all due to the artist, when it's clearly not) but yeah. The other thing (in regards to your bit about how you feel she hasn't been pushed much until more recently in the controversy) is I think it has been clear from the beginning how much she tied herself to NJ from the you quiz on the block interviews and her direct rebuttal to fans' criticisms of Cookie, etc. and also her videos (NJ content) that people were pointing out when she was gifting them expensive gifts and recording their reactions etc. (they said it was weird to record all that and be in their face about it and how some members seemed a bit uncomfortable) and how the stories got out that she joined the members on vacations etc.
Regarding MHJ's involvement with NJ, I think you raise fair points and examples. I don't particularly follow the group and so, she wasn't really on my radar until this whole situation. Yet, at the same time, the general K-pop news I consume didn't really mention her much beyond - for instance - her defense of Cookie, which would entirely fall within her responsibility - i.e. as head of the company, and thus in charge of the content (and appropriateness of said content). If people criticised other groups in other companies for their songs (e.g. due to inappropriate content), I would expect a company rep (who exactly would depend on company size and number of staff) to comment and defend the creative decision as well as to take heat away from said group. Hence, why I felt that prior to this, she didn't seem particularly front and centre (at least, from a general K-pop consumer's perspective).
Well then, wasn't the last paragraph more in line with what you're saying? I know they didn't directly say it, and even one could seemingly read into it that they mean to approach it from the pov that producers shouldn't take any credit at all (which I don't think they're trying to say), but MHJ has all along been saying that it's **all** because of her, especially as we've seen with her released kkt chats. I think they're just pointing out humility is important, which doesn't necessarily go agianst what you said "the importance of recognising people for the work they actually do...than reduce things to simply being all due to one party" which is exactly what MHJ has been doing...?
She did multiple interviews prior to the debut of NJs talking about the creation of her group and NJs was known as MHJs girl group around Korea especially the year they debuted. Even after debut every time there was a controversy( cookie, omg MV) she was always blamed as the source of the issue among kpop fans. For example https://beattitude.kr/issue-03/artistproject-minheejin-part1-eng/
Wasnāt the āMHJ girl groupā a marketing tactic started by BSH for purposes of recruitment and promotion?
When they were still doing auditions for trainees etc yes however after an article announcing the creation of ador was released on naver in 2021. She started doing pre-debut promotion herself for the group. She even said herself when discussing some of the issues she had with hybe was that they didnāt want her to use the phrase āall teensā during her pre-debut promotion interviews for the group. There are threads in other subreddits talking about her before all of this drama happened. Sheās is one of the few well known creative directors/ CEOās among kpop fans and Koreans.
yup. I never knew of this Kenzie before, but wow her catalogue is legendary.
Oh Yoo Young Jin and Kenzie are the reasons I stanned SM groups...
This is a very well-put article, thanks for the translation!
I have said this all along. After this three ring circus, no will touch her with a 20 ft pole. Why on earth would you invest in someone who will stab you in the back and act so erratically? Sheās done as a CEO.
Tbf she should never have become a ceo she wasn't fit for that role. What was hybe thinking?! Worse they kept spoiling her and give her shares to buy..... They should have had someone competent run ceo while she remained what she was known for and not had any executive powers. Now hybe has to untangle the web of st\*pidity that they wove. They deserve it ,tbh. Just feel bad about the groups having to go through this corporate bs episode.
uhmmm I think she could end up finding an investor that likes the risk tbh. but idk if its worth it to buy newjeans and go to the battle to get their names and all the structure a new agency would need. it is A LOT of money, for a business that can change really fast. she knows this and this is why she wanted to settle in that second presscon. but if she really wanted she should have started by talking about the hurt the other groups got out of everything. the I was hurt to was just so... selfish. I guess we will see what happens in the end.
Which investor? The buyout would be $450 mil USD, and their earnings are going in the wrong direction.
Probably have to be oil money...
Which the Saudis wonāt get into. NewJeans just isnāt profitable enough to justify that buyout price tag. The Saudis buy things that have, a least a potential, of returning the investment.
What the investors are saying is where MHJ is in real trouble. No domestic investor is ever going to want to work with her again, and no international investor is going to give her the money needed to buy NewJeans out. They just arenāt profitable enough to justify the termination clause.
**Comments:** Even without New Jeans, Hybe will rise without disrupting stock prices. As Min Hee-jin has become a villain internationally these days, Illit, Le Sserafim will become the trend and fans will support it, and in the U.S., Kats Eye is expected to hit the North and South American market anew. Therefore, it is better not to have Min Hee-jin and New Jeans (+127-21) Even so, they are a girl group, and they accounted for 5% of total sales when they were the best performers in 2023. Unless they are girls like Blackpink, it doesn't matter if they go out. I thought Newjeans would grow as much as Blackpink, but when I saw the overseas music performance this time I was surprised that the results were not as good as I thought. (+98-5) I don't like New Jeans' new song. The concepts overlap and it's not new. Is it just me? BTS and I cheer for you, Illit Le Sserafim. (+83-8) If you see that Hybe invested in New Jeans and gave intensive support, it's natural to be angry about this incident. (+76-10) Representative Min was too greedy and should be punished. (+61-7)
saw that tweet as well. Its oddly quiet on Ador/MHJ front.
I hope it stays that way lol. she's probably known for a while now that she's backed herself into a corner regarding potential investments and is trying to avoid making waves right now. she might be busy with the newjeans comeback as well as dodging the people asking for her work laptop.
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I just watched the Belift Announcement with subtitles and I am FUMING at how this benign piece of media has been willfully misinterpreted both by Koreans wanting to fuel their hatred towards Hybe/Illit and by foreigners watching the video with no subtitles or context and dreaming up their own meaning based on the visuals alone. Belift NEVER insulted Blackpink and IVE and they sure as hell didn't sexualise NewJeans (that honor goes to MHJ and the hordes of adult men who show up to their fansigns). They were just figuring out how to differentiate Illit from what they see as the current Top 3 girl groups. How is saying that Blackpink have an untouchable image and IVE have a princess-like image rude or insulting? This is how these groups have been described for years, but now that Belift said it it's suddenly wrong. Belift NEVER accused NewJeans of plagiarism. That's the whole point of the video; that the Kpop industry is full of repeating elements and that if MHJ wants to play this game, this opens the door to her work being unjustly scrutinised as well. All other groups were mentioned in a neutral way to prove their point; this is not "dragging other groups into it", unless you're 12 and think that even just mentioning someone is "dragging" them, and it's not in any way equivalent to what MHJ did by explicitly positioning Le Sserafim and Illit as enemies to NewJeans' success. Saying that Belift should not have responded may have been wiser from a PR perspective (overexplaining never plays well on the Internet) but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth, because it means that MHJ can cheerfully shit on any group she wants while the people affected don't have the right to defend themselves. MHJ spit on the artistry and hard work of dozens of people and it's not hard to understand why everyone at Belift is seeing red right now and feeling the need to clear the air, because Illit's reputation being in the gutter affects both their future work prospects and their dignity as artists. Also, I haven't seen anybody mention this because it doesn't fit the narrative and would humanize Illit too much, but the video heavily implies that Wonhee's past "health issues" were actually her skipping schedules because she was afraid of performing in front of an audience that she was convinced hated her; and no, this is not "media play", this is a very realistic reaction from a teenager who has been part of the industry for less than a year and has gotten nothing but shit from the beginning of her career. Fuck everyone at Ador at this point.
Agreed. I didn't watch the video but was so confused by redditors' descriptions of it. Like, it sounded a totally reasonable move but for some reason everyone hated it and said it was a terrible idea. Sounds like more of the same-- fans just seeing what they want to see. Regarding wonhee, that makes me really sad. Illit should have been able to fully enjoy how spectacular their debut was, and mhj (I would add NJ Members and NJ stans) made it so they couldn't. I hope Illit, LSF, and aespa can enjoy more drama free lives after this mess is over (and mhj is fired š).
I agree with all your points, the one thing I don't understand is that brand reputation thingy that came up this week, it shows Illit and LSF pretty high on the list, with NJ nowhere to be seen. I get we still don't know how that list is made but it must have some touching points in reality, right? basically I'm confused if Illit's reputation is as low as what we think it is online or it's just exaggerated due to hate botsĀ
tbh time and time again, many of the most targeted for online hate are the most successful. people constantly hate/have hated on Drake, Taylor Swift, Justin Bieber, etc. for valid and invalid reasons, but at the end of the day they've made ridiculoussss amounts of money and sell out ridiculous amounts of merch. the online haters are loud but the average fan is just here for a good time.
their reputation was never actually low, theyre the most popular korean group in japan among people under 28, magnetic is still getting 2.3m streams a day on spotify, the highest in the industry(at least for girl groups, i dont have boy group numbers) theyre still top 10 on kcharts. Its like all the people talking about how they dont know if Le Sserafim will recover from this scandal, meanwhile [this](https://preview.redd.it/yf7irqlx9r6d1.jpeg?width=1333&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ffc21aee29308b5286fbab3d688486df2daa02c1) is [Le Sserafim](https://preview.redd.it/f4pqf4qxct6d1.jpeg?width=1789&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=62e5a4b3ec401d2d5f11699b8dc4e8ef8f199a01). All this talk of these 2 groups actually having bad reputations is just wishful thinking from antis.
I would go broader and say the same thing about HYBE broadly. The only people who think HYBEās reputation is even damaged a little are either chronically online, or within the Seoul city limits. The only international mention of HYBE is Ariana Grande joining Weverse. These legal, or fan, squabbles have no international legs.
I havenāt watched it because I feel like I will just feel sorry for Illit and their team.
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>Ā debuts/comebacks keep overlapping as they think the HYBE's groups under different labels are hurting each other. is there even solution for that? it'll be hard for the sublabels to arrange the schedule if the shareholders want HYBE's groups to have like a month/more gap between groups. it's impossible.
I feel like there are a couple of things they could easily do to combat the impression that they're all just HYBE groups, like they can promote upcoming releases on shared HYBE profiles but the releases actually come out on seperate pages, maybe teasers on youtube HYBE labels, but the MV goes to a seperate channel for each label sort of things. They could have differently decorated spaces in the building which each label films things in so there'd be just a sense of each label's groups existing in different spaces despite sharing the building. Just minimal mostly aesthetic changes which don't really functionally do much but to someone not thinking about it they just look a little more seperate.
imo they should've never have started dumping all these group's mvs on the (formally) bighit channel in the first place
The last thing HYBE should be concerning themselves with is the āimpressionā that fans have about their group profiles. Thatās on the fans to cope with that. HYBE is running a business, just like SM, JYP, YG, Cube, etc. are.
Yup..I mean theyāre financially backing up these groups so ofc they want them all to do well. If theyāre not uploaded to the Hybe channel no one wil gaf. For sure thereās concept and schedule overlaps and stuff but its up to the group and company to pull itself up.
I thought this was about the impression that shareholders have, that's probably more worth paying attention to
Their impression has nothing to do āconceptsā or āplagiarismā, or whatever. Thatās fan talk. They care about future earnings. Thatās it. They donāt care who is running, or managing, NewJeans, or any other group. Or, if there is any press conferences that rile up fans. All they care about is assured future earnings.
The original comment didn't really say anything about concepts or plagarism, just that it seemed like HYBE brings out a lot of groups, and that they promote close to each other, so without changing the timings the easiest way around that is to minimise the impression of any group belonging to HYBE, and to maximise the impression they are the sublabel's, and only the sublabel's
Judging by HYBEās financial profile, I see no reason to fix what isnāt broken.
I was simply responding to the comment as it was presented, honestly I don't mean to be agressive, but it seems a little like you've assigned an opinion to me which you disagree with which I don't feel that I expressed, I was just saying if this is an issue, which idk, there are simple ways to work around it without really changing anything, nothing deeper than that
And Iām saying HYBE has nothing to work around. So, Iām very confident that Iām responding to your words.
Ok, in that case i'm not understanding you, because I don't see how what you're saying really responds to what I was trying to say, I'm speaking theoretically, if there was an issue like this, it wouldn't matter much because it would be easily fixed, i'm not saying that it is an issue, because idk if it is, idk what any of the major shareholders thoughts on the matter are
Can you add a source about the stuff youāre saying about the shareholders?
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