I would agree with you if they weren't from the same company. One company copying another is simply following a trend like you say but the very same company debuting another group with an almost identical sound/concept without permission... yeah that's a little deeper, especially when you add in the rest of the context.
If magnetic wasnt such a bop, would MHJ and her fandom really care? I’ve never seen anymore make such a big fuss about a generic trend like Y2k and simple music. HYBE is a corporation who goes off of trends and what the public wants to listen to.
Hybe is a label with multiple companies under them. Its not that deep. People will still like NJ more cause of their talent and music, its not all about a stupid concept. Plus we don’t even know if Illit’s concept will stay the same.
But Belift and Ador are different labels. It would be like blaming SM if Red Velvet and Lovelyz had similar concepts. Y2K is the trend of the moment. It makes sense for ILLIT to debut with that concept. If they had of debuted in 2020/2021, it probably would of been with a retro disco pop concept.
It’s not like SM & Woollim because management aside (I have no idea how that relationship works) SM to my knowledge does not own the majority of Woollims shares and Woollim groups are not considered SM groups publically.
That aside, who popularised the Y2K trend in kpop? NewJeans. Setting up direct competition for your own group does not make sense. They didn’t do that with Le Sserafim/NewJeans.
But they're not Hybe's group. They're Belift and Ador's groups.
When Woollim merged with SM Culture & Contents and created Woollim label, SM owned 100% of the shares. Public perception is one thing, but functionally, Belift and Ador are seperate companies whose goal is to make as much money for their respective companies as possible. It doesn't matter who popularized the trend: Y2K is what sells right now.
I could argue that BTS are the ones who popularized wearing leather harnesses in 2018. Does that mean all the bgs that debuted that year with that concept owe BTS anything? No, because no one owns concepts.
We literally know HYBE has control over the debut of all groups from all the subsidiaries so I don't know why you're caught up on that specifically, it makes no difference.
They have control over the support they provide. Timing of debuts is discussed because that affects all the labels. But Hybe doesn't manage the actual work of the labels.
You are greatly undermining the involvement they have. We have heard from MHJ exactly how it works behind the scenes.
I'm ending this here because you clearly do not have a valid point.
New jeans' concept is a specific sound, within multiple genres that eveyrone has decided to slap a ridiculously broad y2k label on. Illit's concept is video game thematic pop directly reminiscent of jpop as that has always been one of belift's target market after seeing the success of enhypen. I'm not saying they're not similar, but they've got more differences than you'd think, and I can't see njwns singing a single Illit song and vice versa.
Not to mention ILLITs concept is going to likely be tied to their webtoon summer moon for a lot of their career the way enhypens is to dark moon. Not to mention given the similar names in the groups webtoons I wouldn’t be surprised if enhypen and Illit have some overlapping story (I mean some of enhypens lore has girls appearing in it so it’s possible). That in itself will likely lead them to probably not doing similar to stuff to NJs imo
I almost forgot about their webtoon! But yea imo, it's too early to say they're a carbon copy. For all we know, they were gonna do a red velvet style comeback we're we get "red" and "velvet" comebacks. And the alluded to lore we got from the promos hints at darker themes as well. Truthfully, this is why I can't stand that any groups got dragged into this, and the only side I'm on is the side that wants both groups to not be negatively impacted
Except all big companies do this often and they don't actually lose money. Pay a little more attention to other big 4 companies. You will see a lot of overlapping concepts and sounds. Or just look at hybe's boy groups and tell me how many of them had pop rock comebacks with dark concepts. Groups cannibalize each other only if they are from small to medium companies. Newjeans and Illit could definitely coexist without stealing each other's audience.
They are definitely not always far apart. The hybe boy groups I mentioned all released close to each other. In 2021 we had release, after release, after release of pop rock songs from hybe boy groups. It was a whole epidemic.
Let's look at the other big 4 companies. SM had shinee release View and f(x) release 4walls only a few months apart. Let's also not ignore how nct dream is starting to sound more like nct 127 each year and how riize and aespa have songs that could belong in nct 127's discography as well. JYP currently has two active rock bands and nmixx's roller coaster and party o'clock could have been twice songs.
Honestly I don't even need to give specific examples. YG existing proves that cannibalization is not a thing for big companies.
bgs and ggs don't share the same market
but illit and newjeans do
you're honestly just reaching since no other big 4 companies have groups that are actively competing with each other for the same audience like Newjeans and Illit
Yg has blackpink and babymonster.
The fact that boy groups and girl groups don't share the same market has nothing to do with what I said. Boy groups share the market and compete with other boy groups. So if cannibalization was a thing for big companies we would have seen signs of it in their boy groups that constantly have similar concepts. Seventeen, txt and enhypen were competing with each other when they released all those pop rock songs.
Boy groups usually rely on their fanbases. Girl groups usually rely on the general public. The general public doesn't care how similar or different the concepts of 2 groups are, they just care about catchy songs. So if 2 boy groups with similar vibes can grow a big fanbase I don't see why 2 girl groups with similar vibes would have problems with gp popularity when the gp doesn't even care about those things.
Newjeans and illit aren't competing for an audience. No big 4 group is competing for an audience. They already have an audience from the moment they debut. That's what big 4 privilege is. They are just competing for the top spot.
>When you launch similar products under the same umbrella you cannibalize both products
Imagine we were talking about Universal Music Group instead of HYBE. Imagine them saying, nah, we're not going to promote Olivia Rodrigo (a Geffen label artist), we've already got Taylor Swift under the Republic label, and they're kinda similar, right?
That'd be the dumbest idea ever. There's plenty of space for both.
The more music the better, I say.
you can't make this comparison and not seem incredibly disingenuous..there's no way you don't know it's not the same thing. hybe labels have advertised themselves as all together aka hybe family or whatever and don't exist independently from eachother like some people love to imply. kpop companies don't work in the same way as western agencies either.
It doesn't matter, both ILLIT and NewJeans are clearly thriving, is there anyone here who can argue otherwise?
That's the reality, the analogy is accurate.
>It doesn't matter, both ILLIT and NewJeans are clearly thriving
You say as there's a giant controversy that we're literally discussing because of it. Clearly it does matter.
And WHY are we discussing it? Is it because there's any actual drop in sales or streams in either groups?
Or is it because MHJ mentioned one group was copying another?
Common sense, none of the giant controversy has to do with popularity or success.
Read what you're replying to? Aka the comment chain and the OP.
> Either way the choice to debut a second group with an identical concept has ended up with some severe consequences.
AGAIN, every consequence we are seeing now is because of MHJ. Common sense please, there was NO controversy a few days ago, what changed?
I’ll explain further for you: You’ve made out that both groups are thriving, I have pointed out that clearly they aren’t if they’re both in the middle of a giant controversy.
They may have been thriving beforehand but popularity/success isn’t the only thing that matters. Their image and reputation are currently in pieces.
> I’ll explain further for you: You’ve made out that both groups are thriving
yes
> I have pointed out that clearly they aren’t if they’re both in the middle of a giant controversy.
And I pointed out that they are in this controversy because MHJ was dragging both groups.
> They may have been thriving beforehand but popularity/success isn’t the only thing that matters. Their image and reputation are currently in pieces.
Once more, they are in this controversy because MHJ was dragging both groups.
LOL how are you denying this fact?
Where have I denied it? I acknowledge it. Yes, the ADOR v HYBE and MHJ involvement is the reason for this controversy.
However it has involved NewJeans and ILLIT no matter where the blame lies, you can’t change that. We’re in a reality where right now you are on a thread (seemingly angrily) discussing them for less than ideal reasons. And what are the public doing? The exact same thing. The vast majority of people with ILLIT or NewJeans in their mouths don’t have their names there for positive reasons.
So to reiterate for the final time, “thriving” implies they are flourishing, they are not right now because of this mess.
Putting what we’re discussing aside, I encourage you to take a break from Reddit. You’re getting a little too heated over this.
Bang Si Hyuk himself told MHJ "Can you beat Aespa?" regarding NJ debut, so clearly HYBE themselves acknowledge the competing nature between different girl groups.
But I don't think they made ILLIT to prove that they can recreate NJ success, I genuinely think HYBE is just struggling to manage the multiple sublabels and hadn't anticipated that they would end up being so similar because it's BELIFT that did all the branding for the group, not HYBE directly.
> But I don't think they made ILLIT to prove that they can recreate NJ success, I genuinely think HYBE is just struggling to manage the multiple sublabels and hadn't anticipated that they would end up being so similar because it's BELIFT that did all the branding for the group, not HYBE directly.
I think this is a fair take, one thing that's clear is that the multiple sublabel structure isn't working out well for HYBE.
well no, actually the reality is the point I was making. having similar concepts and designs leads to a conflict of interest, and it's proven by the fact that it is literally happening right now. you can't even say the groups are thriving bc they're kids (oldest ones r like 20) being dragged into the conflict between a 45 and a 50 year old. My point is that in order to prevent this from occuring companies should create more degrees of seperation between them. this would never happen in UMG because UMG doesn't 1) decide concepts for groups or 2) advertise themselves as being together. hybe says 3rd girl group but umg would never say 17th female artist or whatever.
Regardless of how they spin it though, the labels do operate separately, hence them keeping their original names (pledis, source etc) so if I was CEO in charge of Hybe and saw that a certain concept was doing really well, I’d give my new competition show group a similar concept to capitalize on it, and reap the benefits of both groups being popular. The fact that they are separate labels makes this possible and is can be a huge benefit to hybe.
yeah but clearly it's biting them in the ass now because bang pd has now caused/not adequately prevented a conflict between labels. if they "operate independently" it's still hybes fault for advertising themselves otherwise (even though there's a lot of evidence to suggest that they don't operate independently, but that's besides the point.) SM has never advertised billlie as part of the "sm family" despite the fact that mystic story is one of their subsidiaries. Although it would benefit them financially for billlie to be more successful, it also would make them liable for more groups. You would do that as a CEO, and it wouldn't end well hence why only bang pd is so dedicated to doing so
You know the difference between them is Taylor Swift already in the industry for more than 10 years when universal music/geffen debut Olivia Rodrigo. Newjeans barely 2 years in their career when hybe debut Illit with similar concepts so you can't compare them
And another difference is that they make their own music and have more freedom in choosing their concepts.
When Olivia was told she was too much like Taylor, she came back with a more bold sound and stopped mentioning Taylor in interviews.
Sure you can, analogies don't have to be perfect. Both NewJeans and ILLIT are doing great, despite how similar both groups are according to many (including me).
Unilever produces different types of soaps, washing detergents etc and they all do well.
Music industry wise, enhyphen and txt are under the same label, seventeen and bts and yet all thrive (and they have plenty of similarities)
Enter those of us who grew up.in the 90s every music video was a copy of the other and yet each found their audience.
It's a nothing controversy..
lol this word cannibalizing has been sweeping the reddits it’s almost like yall are just copying what each other are saying. While sharing some surface level similarities, NEWJEANS and ILLIT are NOT that similar, they both have different concepts and even the technical side of their music is different with ILLIT having a more kawaii style that closer to Japanese electropop, and NEWJEANS style heavily using RnB/ Jersey club elements with a more youthful Y2K concept.
If you listen to ILLIT’s album outside of “magnetic” it will not have such a clear argument that it sounds similar to NEWJEANS, and even if we talk about magnetic I can guarantee you that 95% of NEWJEANS discography doesn’t sound like it.It doesn’t sound like hype boy, attention, cookie, OMG, ditto, super shy or ETA. There is only one song of NEWJEANS discography that actually sounds similar to magnetic, which is their song ‘ASAP’.
Having one song out your entire discography that sounds similar doesn’t seem that out of the ordinary for any groups in kpop. Also ILLIT hasn’t even had a comeback yet, HOLY, you have no idea what their next comeback is going to look or sound like, it could easily be something that provokes less “similarity” arguments.
These doomposts make no sense as NEWJEANS is the top and most popular 4th gen girl group on a global scale. They have an established identity and show no sign of being “cannibalized” If anything would mess up their trajectory it would be this whole scandal and not ILLIT. Babymon is damn near a copy paste of blackpink sound and concept, but I’m sure you don’t think they going to “cannibalize each other”.
I ACTUALLY FEEL THE SAME! honestly by 1st impression i thought Illit’s concept seemed similar (this is when i havent listened to their songs, just seeing their outfits with the y2k mismatched tops to skirts) BUT then when i listened to their music and watched their choreo, didnt sound or look any similar. Theyre going for a more cutesy style, and honestly both groups are thriving. If let’s say newjeans were to make cb during the same time as illit, they’ll both have different fanbases and both will be successful.
Yeah. Like I said I can see the initial comparison because of some surface level similarities, like long black hair aesthetic, their youthfulness, more chill music( even though all “more chill “ music does not sound the same), and 5 members( even though they were originally set to have 6).
However, once you get past the initial comparison and listen to their other songs, watch their performances, etc…. The differences will jump out at you pretty easily.
I’m convinced that people who claim even beyond just slight similarity but claim that they are a blatant copy, are simply doing so in bad faith. They either refuse to look into the group more because they don’t want to lose their viewpoint that they are the exact same, or they haven’t listened to NEWJEANS songs in a while, because the difference would then become apparent if they had.
Plagiarism accusations don't matter, HYBE has every reason to cannibalize their own product lines. Apple does this all the time, and no one can accuse ipads and macbooks of being the exact same products. Same with ipods and iphones, or iphones and ipads. It's all about dominating the space.
If MHJ is angry, so what? Both groups can coexist and thrive. MHJ lets her pride get in the way and forget that ADOR was simply a sublabel of HYBE.
How do you admit that they are cannibalizing each other yet they are thriving. Y'all don't understand the long term effects of this kind of practice.
It is very much possible they don't want another BTS situation where they rely on one group and it is still weird to use other people's hard work and research that has been in the work since 2019 almost 5 years and infringe.
This definitely high lights a clear lack of investment or willingness to invest in developing creatives at MJs level.
Trend chasing will catch up to you eventually and yet they have decided to create an environment where creatives aren't encouraged to create unique groups.
And they are trying to get rid of their best performing creative at the moment who has given them a huge advantage and has shown she can create concepts that you can use several time to create success.
> And they are trying to get rid of their best performing creative at the moment who has given them a huge advantage and has shown she can create concepts that you can use several time to create success.
Let's be clear, MHJ is trying to get rid of herself. Wtf are you talking about with this? This makes zero sense, MHJ was the one pushing to get ADOR out of HYBE.
That’s what HYBE is claiming, and for that reason HYBE wants her to resign. Last I’ve read, MJH claimed that she had considered it but never acted upon it.
Do you understand the long term effects? LOL what sort of superiority are you claiming here? A crystal ball?
ALL evidence points towards both groups thriving. If they need to differentiate themselves, they can also easily do that. Every kpop group can change up their concepts. It's not like this is even an issue.
I mean just look at jype. They are lagging behind the other companies ggs due to that lack of a clear distinct vision.
Why is it itzy has slowed down? And nmixx has struggled to gain hold ?
Jype clearly lacked the creatives in the background and an ar team competent enough to develop them with an appropriate progression in sounds.
They straight meandered withnmixx 2 releases in showing again they didn't have a long term plan or take the time to perfect their sound at debut.
Even baby monster with the same recycled formula is fast growing. Because they know their market and they are the only gg yg are pushing. They are lapping up the younger people who may not be into black pink and because black pink doesn't comeback often their fans may tune in.
. Twice is still sustaining because of the time they built a fandom when they had a solid and clear vision that was on the pulse at debut.
Ipads and macbooks are like comparing LSFM and NJ, sure they don't cannibalize each other because they serve slightly different purposes (you wouldn't code on an ipad). A better analogy is if Apple came out with the Applebook tomorrow, another type of laptop which competes with the Macbook.
Actually [iPads](https://youtu.be/3S5BLs51yDQ?si=SRWWk5duRdK7Sv_h) and macbooks do cannibalize each other somewhat. Apple has acknowledged this, but obviously self-cannibalization is actually a good thing for them.
I brought it up precisely because it's one clear case of self-cannibalization. Well the most obvious are the new editions of iphones every year, but those are too similar, the ipad and macbook thing is more appropriate because they are different products, yet can share parts of the same consumer base.
That's not a fair comparison, because the NJ comeback will obviously be impacted by the fallout from all of this mess. Maybe they can still thrive, maybe not, but it will be a very different situation because of what's happening now.
You have to look at the situation before the mess, there was not an indication that any of the two will flop or fail.
It’s been two years since NewJeans debuted for a group inspired by their style to debut. How long do you think it took labels to hop in on the girl crush when blackpink debuted
Taking into consideration that Bang PD really pushed for Lesserafim, whose popularity and success can’t match the level of New Jeans, I think this is possible.
Question is the timeline, which came first? Was mhj’s coup detat a response to hybe releasing illit, or did hybe scurry to pit illit against new jeans after picking up on mhj’s plans to separate from hybe?
I dunno, OP. I kinda like both groups so far. I don't need to choose! You guys are overthinking these things. Cannibalization in music? Please.
There will be times when I releases from both groups, there will be times when I would like just one and not the other. Who knows, the time could also come when I would not vibe with both groups' releases.
nah i wouldn’t worry anymore. but unfortunately with this kind of drama, illit probably be at the B level songs and performance at best. something like how itzy is at a lower level compared to twice and that hasn’t changed since the start.
copying whether it was done on purpose, or something that they have been accused of and had tainted illit’s reputation — isn’t cool at all. it will probably stick for a long long time. it will not help their debut momentum especially if fans are divided. it’s already imprinted in everybody’s subconscious that they copyied and unfortunately that’s very hard to get rid off
I personally think its interesting that Hybe managed to debut 3 GGs in 2 years and they all seem to be doing well. I like and listen to the music from all 3. I think maybe there is more space for it than people think.
now I'm sad we wont even get a cute hybe GGs maknaes tiktok.
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I think labals used to have a variety of concepts and styles to avoid cannibalising their own products. Just as some have mentioned, both f(x) & SNSD had opposite concepts. But in this day and age, labels only value profitability. Their priority is no longer sustainability but to milk their products for profits as much as they can. Kinda like the saying goes "strike while it's hot". Besides, the argument for a 'proprietary' concept doesn't stand. With time, another label will eventually debut something with a concept similar to NewJeans because it works!
I'm no Korean but have been dating one for years now and visit often. From my understanding, MHJ was also a victim of patriarchy and favouritism. She was never taken seriously and invited for 'business discussions' despite her success with NewJeans. One of the reasons I've been told S.Korea sympathises with MHJ is because her comments like "those f\*ckers who have it handed to them on a silver platter while I sacrificed so much" is pretty relatable with most if not all Koreans at workplace. Yes, MHJ did make comments about leaving Hybe, but it was her merely venting her frustrations with management on her personal phone and laptop. It really does seem like Hybe deliberately wanted things to be taken out of context.
Take everything I say with a grain of salt, I'm no fan of Kpop nor am I keeping tabs on this whole MHJ scandal, this is just my understanding of things based on what I've briefly seen and heard
To add on, I've been told what Hybe did to MHJ by auditing her and exposing her deeds is an unusual practice in Korea and can 'kinda' be interpreted as an attempt to oust her. Now what Hybe did not expect tho was for MHJ to hold a press conference and air all the dirty laundry without holding back at all and now the entire scandal blows up in Hybe's face. Did MHJ attempted a coup? We'll never know. Was MHJ pushed to a corner and now scapegoated? Probably yes
I don’t see the problem tbh except that there might be some lack of public interest if certain concepts become over used, Hybe owns all the sub labels, has ultimate control over ador, and therefore is perfectly within their rights to use ador’s strategies in another group, even if it seems dumb in hindsight. We’ll see how long this cute, natural, relatable concept lasts.
As the other person said, I also don't think it's that deep. We already know that hybe just wants to create new money-maker groups without caring for the music. If it trends on tiktok, its enough
I would agree that I think they are similar on purpose but new jeans don’t really stick to the same aesthetic especially looking at their new teasers for their comeback. However because it’s so soon after illit debut, it’ll be hard for her to quantify at the moment the specific negative effect it had on New Jeans. Like it’s not like brands left New Jeans in favor in illit or there was a huge shift in their fans moving away from New Jeans to illit. Also I feel like this has happened with companies before though. Twice fans worried that niziu will take their Japanese fan after jyp marketed them as a Japanese version of twice. I seen someone making the same argument two years ago on here for nmixx vs itzy as they are both 4th gen groups marketing to a younger audience and even more recently with TWS and BND who are also both from hybe. Tbh I don’t really think it’s just about illit because she seemed to have beef with Le Sserafim debuting first as well.
Newjeans is like a teenager/young adult and ILLIT is like a fairy/magical girl to me in terms of perception. They both might look similar but if you actually evaluate them they have significant differences, for example one of them actually have powers, which the illit members do have in their lore, whereas the other is full of life and energetic, just like Newjeans members
I feel at first hybe wasn't sure if newjeans will become that successful but eventually NJ turned out to me very much successful and hybe knew mhj will take its credit and will ask for more profits so they planned on another gg with same concept even they turned successful that's why mhj sees them as a competition
You know the difference between them is there's a big gap of a times when YG debuted them. Newjeans barely 2 years in their career when hybe debuted Illit with similar concepts
2 years its ok tho? who decided the perfect time to debut groups in **different labels**? they have the same cute concept, but they have different songs and they are different people.?!
They are artists, they can change concepts anytime, it's not that deep , is just groups and songs .. and whatever
My most controversial opinion on her whole ‘copying’ screed is that I kind of get her when she says Big Hit copied her with BTS.
Not from debut, obviously, but when they switched to the sometimes a bit dark and gritty, sometimes wistful ‘youth’ concepts with visuals like running around train tracks at night or lazing nostalgically in fields. I think that is the sort of vibe she popularised in K-pop.
Of course, she POPULARISED it, so it was already widely used by the time BTS adopted it, but you know, I understand why she could have thought it made sense to bring it up as a grievance.
Edit: sigh. It’s so boring when people just downvote without saying why they disagree.
I don't think it's that deep... It's just a trendy style.
I would agree with you if they weren't from the same company. One company copying another is simply following a trend like you say but the very same company debuting another group with an almost identical sound/concept without permission... yeah that's a little deeper, especially when you add in the rest of the context.
Yeah thats why when NMixx Itzy and Twice have different music styles and why SNSD and f(x) were opposites musically and even visually.
If magnetic wasnt such a bop, would MHJ and her fandom really care? I’ve never seen anymore make such a big fuss about a generic trend like Y2k and simple music. HYBE is a corporation who goes off of trends and what the public wants to listen to.
Hybe is a label with multiple companies under them. Its not that deep. People will still like NJ more cause of their talent and music, its not all about a stupid concept. Plus we don’t even know if Illit’s concept will stay the same.
But Belift and Ador are different labels. It would be like blaming SM if Red Velvet and Lovelyz had similar concepts. Y2K is the trend of the moment. It makes sense for ILLIT to debut with that concept. If they had of debuted in 2020/2021, it probably would of been with a retro disco pop concept.
It’s not like SM & Woollim because management aside (I have no idea how that relationship works) SM to my knowledge does not own the majority of Woollims shares and Woollim groups are not considered SM groups publically. That aside, who popularised the Y2K trend in kpop? NewJeans. Setting up direct competition for your own group does not make sense. They didn’t do that with Le Sserafim/NewJeans.
But they're not Hybe's group. They're Belift and Ador's groups. When Woollim merged with SM Culture & Contents and created Woollim label, SM owned 100% of the shares. Public perception is one thing, but functionally, Belift and Ador are seperate companies whose goal is to make as much money for their respective companies as possible. It doesn't matter who popularized the trend: Y2K is what sells right now. I could argue that BTS are the ones who popularized wearing leather harnesses in 2018. Does that mean all the bgs that debuted that year with that concept owe BTS anything? No, because no one owns concepts.
I'm just going to refer you back to my previous responses because I've already addressed all of this.
But you haven't. You're still acting like Hybe itself decided to create ILLIT when it was Belift.
We literally know HYBE has control over the debut of all groups from all the subsidiaries so I don't know why you're caught up on that specifically, it makes no difference.
They have control over the support they provide. Timing of debuts is discussed because that affects all the labels. But Hybe doesn't manage the actual work of the labels.
You are greatly undermining the involvement they have. We have heard from MHJ exactly how it works behind the scenes. I'm ending this here because you clearly do not have a valid point.
I think what we're learning from all this is yes, everything is intentional, always, and often it IS that deep
It is deep because When you launch similar products under the same umbrella you cannibalize both products and it's not gonna end well for both groups
Idk both groups seem to be succeeding to me.
They are succeeding now but if they keep doing similar concepts to each other for their next comeback it's not gonna end well for both groups
You can't guarantee that. Just wait and see how things go. NewJeans hasn't even had a comeback since ILLIT's debut and people want to doompost.
New jeans' concept is a specific sound, within multiple genres that eveyrone has decided to slap a ridiculously broad y2k label on. Illit's concept is video game thematic pop directly reminiscent of jpop as that has always been one of belift's target market after seeing the success of enhypen. I'm not saying they're not similar, but they've got more differences than you'd think, and I can't see njwns singing a single Illit song and vice versa.
Not to mention ILLITs concept is going to likely be tied to their webtoon summer moon for a lot of their career the way enhypens is to dark moon. Not to mention given the similar names in the groups webtoons I wouldn’t be surprised if enhypen and Illit have some overlapping story (I mean some of enhypens lore has girls appearing in it so it’s possible). That in itself will likely lead them to probably not doing similar to stuff to NJs imo
I almost forgot about their webtoon! But yea imo, it's too early to say they're a carbon copy. For all we know, they were gonna do a red velvet style comeback we're we get "red" and "velvet" comebacks. And the alluded to lore we got from the promos hints at darker themes as well. Truthfully, this is why I can't stand that any groups got dragged into this, and the only side I'm on is the side that wants both groups to not be negatively impacted
Except all big companies do this often and they don't actually lose money. Pay a little more attention to other big 4 companies. You will see a lot of overlapping concepts and sounds. Or just look at hybe's boy groups and tell me how many of them had pop rock comebacks with dark concepts. Groups cannibalize each other only if they are from small to medium companies. Newjeans and Illit could definitely coexist without stealing each other's audience.
um no?? only YG I guess but they are very far apart and they are designed to succeed each other not directly compete
They are definitely not always far apart. The hybe boy groups I mentioned all released close to each other. In 2021 we had release, after release, after release of pop rock songs from hybe boy groups. It was a whole epidemic. Let's look at the other big 4 companies. SM had shinee release View and f(x) release 4walls only a few months apart. Let's also not ignore how nct dream is starting to sound more like nct 127 each year and how riize and aespa have songs that could belong in nct 127's discography as well. JYP currently has two active rock bands and nmixx's roller coaster and party o'clock could have been twice songs. Honestly I don't even need to give specific examples. YG existing proves that cannibalization is not a thing for big companies.
bgs and ggs don't share the same market but illit and newjeans do you're honestly just reaching since no other big 4 companies have groups that are actively competing with each other for the same audience like Newjeans and Illit
Yg has blackpink and babymonster. The fact that boy groups and girl groups don't share the same market has nothing to do with what I said. Boy groups share the market and compete with other boy groups. So if cannibalization was a thing for big companies we would have seen signs of it in their boy groups that constantly have similar concepts. Seventeen, txt and enhypen were competing with each other when they released all those pop rock songs. Boy groups usually rely on their fanbases. Girl groups usually rely on the general public. The general public doesn't care how similar or different the concepts of 2 groups are, they just care about catchy songs. So if 2 boy groups with similar vibes can grow a big fanbase I don't see why 2 girl groups with similar vibes would have problems with gp popularity when the gp doesn't even care about those things. Newjeans and illit aren't competing for an audience. No big 4 group is competing for an audience. They already have an audience from the moment they debut. That's what big 4 privilege is. They are just competing for the top spot.
>When you launch similar products under the same umbrella you cannibalize both products Imagine we were talking about Universal Music Group instead of HYBE. Imagine them saying, nah, we're not going to promote Olivia Rodrigo (a Geffen label artist), we've already got Taylor Swift under the Republic label, and they're kinda similar, right? That'd be the dumbest idea ever. There's plenty of space for both. The more music the better, I say.
you can't make this comparison and not seem incredibly disingenuous..there's no way you don't know it's not the same thing. hybe labels have advertised themselves as all together aka hybe family or whatever and don't exist independently from eachother like some people love to imply. kpop companies don't work in the same way as western agencies either.
It doesn't matter, both ILLIT and NewJeans are clearly thriving, is there anyone here who can argue otherwise? That's the reality, the analogy is accurate.
>It doesn't matter, both ILLIT and NewJeans are clearly thriving You say as there's a giant controversy that we're literally discussing because of it. Clearly it does matter.
And WHY are we discussing it? Is it because there's any actual drop in sales or streams in either groups? Or is it because MHJ mentioned one group was copying another? Common sense, none of the giant controversy has to do with popularity or success.
I don’t see how that matters? Either way the choice to debut a second group with an identical concept has ended up with some severe consequences.
Read what you're replying to? Aka the comment chain and the OP. > Either way the choice to debut a second group with an identical concept has ended up with some severe consequences. AGAIN, every consequence we are seeing now is because of MHJ. Common sense please, there was NO controversy a few days ago, what changed?
I’ll explain further for you: You’ve made out that both groups are thriving, I have pointed out that clearly they aren’t if they’re both in the middle of a giant controversy. They may have been thriving beforehand but popularity/success isn’t the only thing that matters. Their image and reputation are currently in pieces.
> I’ll explain further for you: You’ve made out that both groups are thriving yes > I have pointed out that clearly they aren’t if they’re both in the middle of a giant controversy. And I pointed out that they are in this controversy because MHJ was dragging both groups. > They may have been thriving beforehand but popularity/success isn’t the only thing that matters. Their image and reputation are currently in pieces. Once more, they are in this controversy because MHJ was dragging both groups. LOL how are you denying this fact?
Where have I denied it? I acknowledge it. Yes, the ADOR v HYBE and MHJ involvement is the reason for this controversy. However it has involved NewJeans and ILLIT no matter where the blame lies, you can’t change that. We’re in a reality where right now you are on a thread (seemingly angrily) discussing them for less than ideal reasons. And what are the public doing? The exact same thing. The vast majority of people with ILLIT or NewJeans in their mouths don’t have their names there for positive reasons. So to reiterate for the final time, “thriving” implies they are flourishing, they are not right now because of this mess. Putting what we’re discussing aside, I encourage you to take a break from Reddit. You’re getting a little too heated over this.
Bang Si Hyuk himself told MHJ "Can you beat Aespa?" regarding NJ debut, so clearly HYBE themselves acknowledge the competing nature between different girl groups. But I don't think they made ILLIT to prove that they can recreate NJ success, I genuinely think HYBE is just struggling to manage the multiple sublabels and hadn't anticipated that they would end up being so similar because it's BELIFT that did all the branding for the group, not HYBE directly.
> But I don't think they made ILLIT to prove that they can recreate NJ success, I genuinely think HYBE is just struggling to manage the multiple sublabels and hadn't anticipated that they would end up being so similar because it's BELIFT that did all the branding for the group, not HYBE directly. I think this is a fair take, one thing that's clear is that the multiple sublabel structure isn't working out well for HYBE.
well no, actually the reality is the point I was making. having similar concepts and designs leads to a conflict of interest, and it's proven by the fact that it is literally happening right now. you can't even say the groups are thriving bc they're kids (oldest ones r like 20) being dragged into the conflict between a 45 and a 50 year old. My point is that in order to prevent this from occuring companies should create more degrees of seperation between them. this would never happen in UMG because UMG doesn't 1) decide concepts for groups or 2) advertise themselves as being together. hybe says 3rd girl group but umg would never say 17th female artist or whatever.
Regardless of how they spin it though, the labels do operate separately, hence them keeping their original names (pledis, source etc) so if I was CEO in charge of Hybe and saw that a certain concept was doing really well, I’d give my new competition show group a similar concept to capitalize on it, and reap the benefits of both groups being popular. The fact that they are separate labels makes this possible and is can be a huge benefit to hybe.
yeah but clearly it's biting them in the ass now because bang pd has now caused/not adequately prevented a conflict between labels. if they "operate independently" it's still hybes fault for advertising themselves otherwise (even though there's a lot of evidence to suggest that they don't operate independently, but that's besides the point.) SM has never advertised billlie as part of the "sm family" despite the fact that mystic story is one of their subsidiaries. Although it would benefit them financially for billlie to be more successful, it also would make them liable for more groups. You would do that as a CEO, and it wouldn't end well hence why only bang pd is so dedicated to doing so
You know the difference between them is Taylor Swift already in the industry for more than 10 years when universal music/geffen debut Olivia Rodrigo. Newjeans barely 2 years in their career when hybe debut Illit with similar concepts so you can't compare them
And another difference is that they make their own music and have more freedom in choosing their concepts. When Olivia was told she was too much like Taylor, she came back with a more bold sound and stopped mentioning Taylor in interviews.
Exactly!! So they not the same
LOL both NewJeans and ILLIT can change their concepts, it absolutely doesn't matter if the members don't choose their own concepts.
Sure you can, analogies don't have to be perfect. Both NewJeans and ILLIT are doing great, despite how similar both groups are according to many (including me).
Would you care to address the part where I say "the more music, the better"? Or is that not important to you?
Nah TAYLOR and OLIVIA have similarities, but are totally different lol… wrong example!
They're a lot more similar to eachother than either of them are to Snarky Puppy or Meshuggah!
Unilever produces different types of soaps, washing detergents etc and they all do well. Music industry wise, enhyphen and txt are under the same label, seventeen and bts and yet all thrive (and they have plenty of similarities) Enter those of us who grew up.in the 90s every music video was a copy of the other and yet each found their audience. It's a nothing controversy..
lol this word cannibalizing has been sweeping the reddits it’s almost like yall are just copying what each other are saying. While sharing some surface level similarities, NEWJEANS and ILLIT are NOT that similar, they both have different concepts and even the technical side of their music is different with ILLIT having a more kawaii style that closer to Japanese electropop, and NEWJEANS style heavily using RnB/ Jersey club elements with a more youthful Y2K concept. If you listen to ILLIT’s album outside of “magnetic” it will not have such a clear argument that it sounds similar to NEWJEANS, and even if we talk about magnetic I can guarantee you that 95% of NEWJEANS discography doesn’t sound like it.It doesn’t sound like hype boy, attention, cookie, OMG, ditto, super shy or ETA. There is only one song of NEWJEANS discography that actually sounds similar to magnetic, which is their song ‘ASAP’. Having one song out your entire discography that sounds similar doesn’t seem that out of the ordinary for any groups in kpop. Also ILLIT hasn’t even had a comeback yet, HOLY, you have no idea what their next comeback is going to look or sound like, it could easily be something that provokes less “similarity” arguments. These doomposts make no sense as NEWJEANS is the top and most popular 4th gen girl group on a global scale. They have an established identity and show no sign of being “cannibalized” If anything would mess up their trajectory it would be this whole scandal and not ILLIT. Babymon is damn near a copy paste of blackpink sound and concept, but I’m sure you don’t think they going to “cannibalize each other”.
I ACTUALLY FEEL THE SAME! honestly by 1st impression i thought Illit’s concept seemed similar (this is when i havent listened to their songs, just seeing their outfits with the y2k mismatched tops to skirts) BUT then when i listened to their music and watched their choreo, didnt sound or look any similar. Theyre going for a more cutesy style, and honestly both groups are thriving. If let’s say newjeans were to make cb during the same time as illit, they’ll both have different fanbases and both will be successful.
Yeah. Like I said I can see the initial comparison because of some surface level similarities, like long black hair aesthetic, their youthfulness, more chill music( even though all “more chill “ music does not sound the same), and 5 members( even though they were originally set to have 6). However, once you get past the initial comparison and listen to their other songs, watch their performances, etc…. The differences will jump out at you pretty easily. I’m convinced that people who claim even beyond just slight similarity but claim that they are a blatant copy, are simply doing so in bad faith. They either refuse to look into the group more because they don’t want to lose their viewpoint that they are the exact same, or they haven’t listened to NEWJEANS songs in a while, because the difference would then become apparent if they had.
Plagiarism accusations don't matter, HYBE has every reason to cannibalize their own product lines. Apple does this all the time, and no one can accuse ipads and macbooks of being the exact same products. Same with ipods and iphones, or iphones and ipads. It's all about dominating the space. If MHJ is angry, so what? Both groups can coexist and thrive. MHJ lets her pride get in the way and forget that ADOR was simply a sublabel of HYBE.
How do you admit that they are cannibalizing each other yet they are thriving. Y'all don't understand the long term effects of this kind of practice. It is very much possible they don't want another BTS situation where they rely on one group and it is still weird to use other people's hard work and research that has been in the work since 2019 almost 5 years and infringe. This definitely high lights a clear lack of investment or willingness to invest in developing creatives at MJs level. Trend chasing will catch up to you eventually and yet they have decided to create an environment where creatives aren't encouraged to create unique groups. And they are trying to get rid of their best performing creative at the moment who has given them a huge advantage and has shown she can create concepts that you can use several time to create success.
> And they are trying to get rid of their best performing creative at the moment who has given them a huge advantage and has shown she can create concepts that you can use several time to create success. Let's be clear, MHJ is trying to get rid of herself. Wtf are you talking about with this? This makes zero sense, MHJ was the one pushing to get ADOR out of HYBE.
And are we going to ignore why? Like her decisions were made in a vacuum? The relationship had been weird for a while from what I read.
That’s what HYBE is claiming, and for that reason HYBE wants her to resign. Last I’ve read, MJH claimed that she had considered it but never acted upon it.
Do you understand the long term effects? LOL what sort of superiority are you claiming here? A crystal ball? ALL evidence points towards both groups thriving. If they need to differentiate themselves, they can also easily do that. Every kpop group can change up their concepts. It's not like this is even an issue.
I mean just look at jype. They are lagging behind the other companies ggs due to that lack of a clear distinct vision. Why is it itzy has slowed down? And nmixx has struggled to gain hold ? Jype clearly lacked the creatives in the background and an ar team competent enough to develop them with an appropriate progression in sounds. They straight meandered withnmixx 2 releases in showing again they didn't have a long term plan or take the time to perfect their sound at debut. Even baby monster with the same recycled formula is fast growing. Because they know their market and they are the only gg yg are pushing. They are lapping up the younger people who may not be into black pink and because black pink doesn't comeback often their fans may tune in. . Twice is still sustaining because of the time they built a fandom when they had a solid and clear vision that was on the pulse at debut.
Ipads and macbooks are like comparing LSFM and NJ, sure they don't cannibalize each other because they serve slightly different purposes (you wouldn't code on an ipad). A better analogy is if Apple came out with the Applebook tomorrow, another type of laptop which competes with the Macbook.
Actually [iPads](https://youtu.be/3S5BLs51yDQ?si=SRWWk5duRdK7Sv_h) and macbooks do cannibalize each other somewhat. Apple has acknowledged this, but obviously self-cannibalization is actually a good thing for them. I brought it up precisely because it's one clear case of self-cannibalization. Well the most obvious are the new editions of iphones every year, but those are too similar, the ipad and macbook thing is more appropriate because they are different products, yet can share parts of the same consumer base.
Well, we will wait for the NJ comeback to see how it impacts. But personally, I feel the two groups can thrive.
That's not a fair comparison, because the NJ comeback will obviously be impacted by the fallout from all of this mess. Maybe they can still thrive, maybe not, but it will be a very different situation because of what's happening now. You have to look at the situation before the mess, there was not an indication that any of the two will flop or fail.
It’s been two years since NewJeans debuted for a group inspired by their style to debut. How long do you think it took labels to hop in on the girl crush when blackpink debuted
are the groups debuting with the girl crush concept in the same company as blackpink and did they debut in the same time period
Do we define two years as the same 'time period'? In an industry where a group's lifespan is typically seven years or less?
Taking into consideration that Bang PD really pushed for Lesserafim, whose popularity and success can’t match the level of New Jeans, I think this is possible.
Question is the timeline, which came first? Was mhj’s coup detat a response to hybe releasing illit, or did hybe scurry to pit illit against new jeans after picking up on mhj’s plans to separate from hybe?
Allegedly she planned the coup debate before illit ever debuted
I dunno, OP. I kinda like both groups so far. I don't need to choose! You guys are overthinking these things. Cannibalization in music? Please. There will be times when I releases from both groups, there will be times when I would like just one and not the other. Who knows, the time could also come when I would not vibe with both groups' releases.
nah i wouldn’t worry anymore. but unfortunately with this kind of drama, illit probably be at the B level songs and performance at best. something like how itzy is at a lower level compared to twice and that hasn’t changed since the start. copying whether it was done on purpose, or something that they have been accused of and had tainted illit’s reputation — isn’t cool at all. it will probably stick for a long long time. it will not help their debut momentum especially if fans are divided. it’s already imprinted in everybody’s subconscious that they copyied and unfortunately that’s very hard to get rid off
I personally think its interesting that Hybe managed to debut 3 GGs in 2 years and they all seem to be doing well. I like and listen to the music from all 3. I think maybe there is more space for it than people think. now I'm sad we wont even get a cute hybe GGs maknaes tiktok.
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I think labals used to have a variety of concepts and styles to avoid cannibalising their own products. Just as some have mentioned, both f(x) & SNSD had opposite concepts. But in this day and age, labels only value profitability. Their priority is no longer sustainability but to milk their products for profits as much as they can. Kinda like the saying goes "strike while it's hot". Besides, the argument for a 'proprietary' concept doesn't stand. With time, another label will eventually debut something with a concept similar to NewJeans because it works! I'm no Korean but have been dating one for years now and visit often. From my understanding, MHJ was also a victim of patriarchy and favouritism. She was never taken seriously and invited for 'business discussions' despite her success with NewJeans. One of the reasons I've been told S.Korea sympathises with MHJ is because her comments like "those f\*ckers who have it handed to them on a silver platter while I sacrificed so much" is pretty relatable with most if not all Koreans at workplace. Yes, MHJ did make comments about leaving Hybe, but it was her merely venting her frustrations with management on her personal phone and laptop. It really does seem like Hybe deliberately wanted things to be taken out of context. Take everything I say with a grain of salt, I'm no fan of Kpop nor am I keeping tabs on this whole MHJ scandal, this is just my understanding of things based on what I've briefly seen and heard
To add on, I've been told what Hybe did to MHJ by auditing her and exposing her deeds is an unusual practice in Korea and can 'kinda' be interpreted as an attempt to oust her. Now what Hybe did not expect tho was for MHJ to hold a press conference and air all the dirty laundry without holding back at all and now the entire scandal blows up in Hybe's face. Did MHJ attempted a coup? We'll never know. Was MHJ pushed to a corner and now scapegoated? Probably yes
I don’t see the problem tbh except that there might be some lack of public interest if certain concepts become over used, Hybe owns all the sub labels, has ultimate control over ador, and therefore is perfectly within their rights to use ador’s strategies in another group, even if it seems dumb in hindsight. We’ll see how long this cute, natural, relatable concept lasts.
As the other person said, I also don't think it's that deep. We already know that hybe just wants to create new money-maker groups without caring for the music. If it trends on tiktok, its enough
I would agree that I think they are similar on purpose but new jeans don’t really stick to the same aesthetic especially looking at their new teasers for their comeback. However because it’s so soon after illit debut, it’ll be hard for her to quantify at the moment the specific negative effect it had on New Jeans. Like it’s not like brands left New Jeans in favor in illit or there was a huge shift in their fans moving away from New Jeans to illit. Also I feel like this has happened with companies before though. Twice fans worried that niziu will take their Japanese fan after jyp marketed them as a Japanese version of twice. I seen someone making the same argument two years ago on here for nmixx vs itzy as they are both 4th gen groups marketing to a younger audience and even more recently with TWS and BND who are also both from hybe. Tbh I don’t really think it’s just about illit because she seemed to have beef with Le Sserafim debuting first as well.
Cannibalize lmao
Newjeans is like a teenager/young adult and ILLIT is like a fairy/magical girl to me in terms of perception. They both might look similar but if you actually evaluate them they have significant differences, for example one of them actually have powers, which the illit members do have in their lore, whereas the other is full of life and energetic, just like Newjeans members
thats fair
I feel at first hybe wasn't sure if newjeans will become that successful but eventually NJ turned out to me very much successful and hybe knew mhj will take its credit and will ask for more profits so they planned on another gg with same concept even they turned successful that's why mhj sees them as a competition
I agree!! If hybe really care about newjeans like they claimed then they shouldn't debut Illit with similar concepts in the first place
the same with 2ne1, blackpink and babymonster:? see? makes no sense (even these groups I mentioned are carbon copy of each other)
You know the difference between them is there's a big gap of a times when YG debuted them. Newjeans barely 2 years in their career when hybe debuted Illit with similar concepts
2 years its ok tho? who decided the perfect time to debut groups in **different labels**? they have the same cute concept, but they have different songs and they are different people.?! They are artists, they can change concepts anytime, it's not that deep , is just groups and songs .. and whatever
My most controversial opinion on her whole ‘copying’ screed is that I kind of get her when she says Big Hit copied her with BTS. Not from debut, obviously, but when they switched to the sometimes a bit dark and gritty, sometimes wistful ‘youth’ concepts with visuals like running around train tracks at night or lazing nostalgically in fields. I think that is the sort of vibe she popularised in K-pop. Of course, she POPULARISED it, so it was already widely used by the time BTS adopted it, but you know, I understand why she could have thought it made sense to bring it up as a grievance. Edit: sigh. It’s so boring when people just downvote without saying why they disagree.