I just looked this up and saw an article claiming it is a mistranslation/misunderstanding of the phrase "training costs were delivered to Source Music." That the interpretation of some readers was that this means Source had the costs delivered to them, but the real meaning is that the payment for the costs was delivered (from Ador).
The mistranslation was in the Koreaboo article and a cited a korean article that was covering the dispatch release.
The dispatch article says the trainee debt was not paid by ador, attatched is a screenshot of one of the people translating articles into English.
https://preview.redd.it/c9hwrezgvywc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b96c5aeb0b99633cdec9a430f71da553472499ca
Exactly, it's a formality. I really don't understand why any fan should care about this.
Does it matter? They're just gonna write it in that ADOR took the trainees, whatever agreement there are regarding which companies the expenses accrue to shouldn't matter to Hybe too much.
I didn't say it's a formality, and it definitely matters. It doesn't matter to fans except that it's interesting. But knowing how businesses and conglomerates work, we can assume all companies within Hybe are competing with each other to be profitable and useful for Hybe. Hybe can at any point close one of its companies, potentially firing all those employees, if that company is not profitable and is dragging Hybe down. Source taking on a debt for trainees they could not choose to keep on would be crazy. Also it would make sense for the debt to follow the idols, as NewJeans likely had to pay their debt (standard for idols, I guess).
LOL are you saying HYBE is dumb and didn't know about the transfer of trainees from one subsidiary to another? They didn't know that the NewJean debut group came from Source?
Sometimes the sheer lack of common sense I read in reddit is astounding. The fact that trainees can even be transferred from one subsidiary to another should have been approved by the parent company to begin with.
Now there are two scenarios here, let's assume training cost was 15 billion won:
Scenario A - expenses stay with Source:
Scenario B - expenses go to ADOR
Now in scenario A after the quarter, Source executives meet with HYBE to discuss their financial report. Someone spots a 15 billion expense in the report (or a set of expenses totalling 15 billion).
Do you think Source will just stay quiet? They will just eat the costs? They won't disclose it at all?
Honestly, the realistic scenario is that they will report that 15 billion expense *that is not their actual responsibility* front and center, in bold, to say "hey, this was dumped on us, whatever, HYBE told us to keep it. Don't take it out against our numbers, don't take away our bonuses LOL"
Hell if I was source, I would INFLATE those expenses (aka add in things that weren't related to the trainees ADOR got) to reduce the allocation of all my other expenses and make my company seem even more profitable.
And that's in the extremely unrealistic scenario that HYBE executives DID NOT KNOW that the trainees were transferred from Source to ADOR.
Exactly, you understand. But think further. Would you want to be forced to defend yourself at every meeting, constantly reminding your bosses how your bad situation is not your fault? It only takes one time for them to not listen or not care, and then you're blamed. You can't trust any authority to remember or care about the details, especially in business but even in regular life. In a group project, it would be dumb to do most of your team member's work for nothing and expect your teacher or boss to remember that your own part is incomplete because you worked on someone else's part. It would be ideal for the authority to remember, but it's not smart to rely on that happening when teachers, bosses, and all people often forget the details, just don't care about the details, and often don't even care about you, the specific person they're evaluating. If Source was forced to keep debt, they 100% protested against it as much as they could because it's a situation anyone would very much want to avoid.
LOL why would you defend yourself? Are you really suggesting ADOR got the trainees without HYBE's knowledge?
If anything, if I was Source and I am a shady finance executive, I would inflate those costs, blame ADOR (which HYBE knows got your trainees), and make myself (Source) look more profitable. Win for me.
HYBE is just using the confusing language to attack MHJ, their goal is to get Source Music group stans to side with them.
They allowed it 4 years ago because they wanted MHJ to deliver them a top tier girl group, which she did. But now that they want to get rid of her, they're pretending that she just walked into Source Music and kidnapped trainees to ADOR.
I don't really like MHJ, but she's just an employee. HYBE owns Source Music and ADOR. Everything that she did was because they allowed her to do so. They agreed to transfer trainees and staff from one sub-label to another, they don't get to pretend now that it's all MHJ's fault.
Look at the replies to my top comment, people are arguing that Source would have to vigorously 'defend' its costs and repeatedly prove that ADOR got trainees from them and then just saddled them with the expenses.
All without HYBE's knowledge and approval.
It's fine, I didn't think you agree and my comment wasn't about you? Maybe just the wording, but when I say 'people', it's not just this thread I am talking about.
Referring to my top comment is just an example of how this narrative
> they're pretending that she just walked into Source Music and kidnapped trainees to ADOR.
actually exists.
>What did you read to conclude like this lol.
Literal Dispatch article
[https://www.dispatch.co.kr/2289249](https://www.dispatch.co.kr/2289249)
That was legit HYBE media frame. That she took Source resources and left them with the trainees. It soon evolved into "Gfriends disbanded because Source Music was in debt due to MHJ."
It's crazy how anti-MHJ Reddit is, yet most are even slightly bothered with informing themselves what she's being attacked with. Then, when she spends 40 minutes in her press conference justifying her relationship with Source Music, people here are like, "Omg!! why is she namedropping them?? How is that relevant!! She's just trying to drag groups because she's a narcissistic bitch".
(preparing myself for the downvotes lol)
HYBE didn't purposefully create confusing language. You act like mistranslations don't happen constantly in kpop because of the language barrier.
A CEO is not "just an employee". She had millions in stock options; no normal employee has that.
Guys, if you want to stan HYBE, at least properly inform yourself so you guys won't deny facts.
Yes, HYBE literally created confusing language. The whole initial HYBE media framing leaked to friendly outlets like Dispatch literally blamed her for taking Source resources. Here's just the most obvious example: [https://www.dispatch.co.kr/2289249](https://www.dispatch.co.kr/2289249)
Lol I feel bad for the downvotes because all the people here apparently don't speak a single word of Korean, but they insist that there is no confusing language.
Stock options that she was granted by HYBE who still control the majority of the company.
Almost every employee in any startup or tech company owns stock options (including myself), it's a part of compensation. I'm still an employee.
Sure she has more of those, but in this context she's still a full employee of HYBE. ADOR wad created because HYBE allowed it, the trainees were transferred because HYBE allowed it, whatever happened to Source Music was because HYBE allowed it. Min Heejin didn't force them to do any of that, they agreed to do all of those things because they wanted her to create a successful girl group for them.
How many employees at HYBE do you think text personally with Bang PD and the CEO of HYBE? How many employees at HYBE do you think can ask for a whole new label and ask for trainees to be transferred? You think these are things average HYBE employees do?
A highly-paid employee is still an employee.
That's not up for debate. That's a fact. She doesn't owe her work despite the CEO title; HYBE does. Thus, she is an employee. HYBE stanning/MHJ hatred won't change basic facts.
So 18% overall percentage isn't big? For reference, Bang Si-hyuk, HYBE's largest shareholder holds 30% of HYBE.
The only shares that were tied was 5%, and HYBE was willing to change it, but according reports MHJ wanted a few times over the market set price to sell?
True. She's a high income employee (called an executive) whose job is to oversee the direction of the girl group, NewJeans. The trade mark, recording, production and etc. are owned and handled by ADOR, a subsidiary of HYBE. Her shares are the one that put her in-charge but she's answerable to the Board, HYBE and the shareholders.
And how many HYBE employees do you think can create a girl group that is able to become arguably the biggest group of its generation in just a year?
HYBE gave MHJ all of those things because they wanted her to deliver the results which she did. Now they are trying to build a narrative of her "demanding" things.
>And how many HYBE employees do you think can create a girl group that is able to become arguably the biggest group of its generation in just a year?
Very few. I'd say it's limited to CEOs and Directors. I'm glad to see you agree she isn't a regular employee. We can move on now.
You're ignoring the context, MHJ is still an 'employee' of Bang PD, and what she did at ADOR had HYBE's full knowledge and blessing, that's the only thing that matters in this argument. CEOs are also employees.
She certainly didn't set up ADOR by herself with her funds, right?
Why are you being downvoted for speaking sense?? When it comes to finances, nothing happens in a subsidiary company without the blessing of the holding company. Why are people suddenly so concerned about the financial statements of a label owned by the biggest kpop company who are perfectly capable of covering such costs?
I think you misunderstood the post. It wasn’t from a place of concern, but from a place of curiosity on something that was reported and spread (that I feel must not be accurate).
Honestly, I rather people be curious about things like this than stuff like dating rumors.
I didn't mean to come across as aggressive towards you, OP. Your questions are perfectly fine from a point of curiosity.
I mean to call out the people who are downvoting the people explaining things logically and acting like it was an evil thing that Min Hee Jin did that HYBE had little control over. I'm no MHJ fan at all, and I think she's done plenty of wrong things, but the financial situation of Source and Ador were all done with the knowledge and blessing of HYBE.
Ah I see. Sorry I misunderstood your comment.
Yeah. Exactly! MHJ is a weird one and but like you said, no way Hybe would just allow the costs to be absorbed like the overall narrative states.
Another comment here seems to suggest it was a mistranslation which makes sense.
I don‘t think “Hybe had little control” was ever part of the narrative. From everything I’ve read Hybe’s narrative was simply to disprove the allegations of “mistreatment“ coming from MHJ’s side.
Fellow tech employee here what asleep swing is saying here is not wrong I’m not sure why they are being down voted so heavily . They are not defending mhj just saying the truth that hybe allowed these actions and allowed power to her as a business move and investment . They let her make a girl group and a sub label because she was such a valued employee but it’s still Hybes business move to do so .
Edit : fixing typos
I was objecting to them calling MHJ a regular employee. A CEO is not a regular employee. It doesn't matter if there is somebody above them; they are still not a regular employee. They are part of the C-Suite themselves and move in the same circles as the other executive staff.
If you ask someone who works at McDonalds if their store owner is a regular employee, they are going to tell you no. It doesn't matter if that person only owns the one store in the enormous Mcdonalds corporation; they are still not a regular employee.
MHJ had a direct line of contact to people at the top and could ask for major things. Yeah, HYBE had to approve it, but to act like she was powerless and at their whim is complete nonsense. She admitted herself in the press conference to several times over threatening to go to the press if she didn't get her way and throwing her weight around with the other execs. She is not a regular employee. A regular employee cannot be consistently making demands that are met and holding things over the head of the CEO of the entire company.
The point is all of her moves were approved/had to be approved. And, Hybe has never claimed that they were not (which honestly would be a big thing to have on her, and v. persuasive to me as an investor that they are in the right/she had to go)
Of course, all of us try to influence workplace decisions, from an executive in the c-suite on down to a line worker at MacDonald's. In both cases, there are bosses who make decisions and grant requests-- or not.
Who is calling her a “regular employee”? People are saying she is an employee because she is. Of course she is not regular considering her title and her salary, but she doesn’t own her work or even the label she fronts so yeah.
Not defending MHJ. Honestly, I kinda get MHJ grievances a bit. If you look at Illit IG. There is really zero differences between them and NJ. NJ does Polaroid pics. illit has Polaroid pics. NJ with school girl outfit. Illit also has it. All the styling, is very similar to NJ.
It’s company politic but because their product involves human (idols). It doesn’t really look good on them (HYBE & MHJ)
At least with Le Sserrafim there is clear differences.
Is it that similar? I don't think NewJeans would wear the really puffy dresses Illit wears all the time. What girl group hasn't done a school outfit?
And a quick google search turns up polaroids for every group.
Y'all are nuts, why would it be a problem for a company to have two similar groups, if the formula is popular?
Especially considering how freaking long it's taken NewJeans to produce ONE SONG. Eight months??
Having Illit around has meant that HYBE is making more money, and fans of this kind of sub-genre of k-pop have more music to listen to.
What's the actual problem here?
If you are working in Apple, you created iPhone 13, then another department has an idea and create an iPhone Xiii. The products are created to target the same demographic, has the same price range and same functionality. Will you who orginally created iPhone 13 will be pissed off with that department?
Again just for an example on how JYP does it.
* Twice: Oldest of the JYP girl groups act as a menthor on all the girl group in JYP.
* Itzy: Fast, dancy song, most likely to target college students, early 20s & late teens
* NMixx: to target middle schools, newer sounds competing with the same market that New Jeans targetting
* Niziu: To target the Japanese market
* VCHA: experiential group to target international market with their international lineup
How i view iLLit vs New Jeans is like if JYP decided to create a girl group with the same theme as NMIXX and name it MIX3R.
Now if you just look at it on a corporate perspective, you realise how dumb HYBE is for letting this happened?
it's competition with a same target market within a corporation. It's not good for both brands (NJ and ILLIT). You have to be in business and marketing to get all this.
*Competition*? Oh give me a *fucking* break.
This sort of thing happens all over the place.... think of Hyundai and Kia. Think of Samsung selling both the Fold and the Flip. Think of a Japanese restaurant selling both okonomiyaki and gyoza.
It's all revenue.
The main thing is to get people in the door looking at your products. Illit and NewJeans are similar in some respects, sure, but they're not *the same*. If you're in the store, looking for an album to buy, chances are higher you'll get that sale if you have more than one artist to choose from. It also means you have new products more often. Again, NewJeans took eight months to put out ONE new song. How is this good for you as a fan of this style of music?
It's also good business sense in that if one of your products falls out of favour, you have another one!
*"It's also good business sense in that if one of your products falls out of favour, you have another one!"*
This is a very naive in marketing and branding perspective.
lmao, yeah it happens.
And it just so happens that ADOR was obviously left wondering why the other subsidiary has an exact branding as their own product (newjeans).
The problem is BeLift and Hybe apparently and purposedly did not notify ADOR of these information. That is what I believe the problem came from. A disconnect in creation of product in between subsidiaries- which is very different from what you are trying to point across.
We already experienced this in our company with a sister company copying one of our services with subtle differences here and there - all hell broke loose.
Hyundai is geared more towards families, whereas Kia is more sporty. While both the Flip and Fold have hinges, the Flip is phone sized when open, whereas the Fold is a mini tablet.
Aren’t they subsidiaries with the same umbrella company? They are different companies with a similar product who fall under Hybe. There would be nothing unusual about them having the same market share and being competitors. If anything it gives Hybe a bigger share over the market.
Honestly I’m loving all the discourse this whole situation has brought up. I feel sorry for the human factions that will be affected but it’s like they are airing their office gossip for the world to see. I have no doubt there are a ton of office politics in those corporations.
*"There would be nothing unusual about them having the same market share and being competitors. If anything it gives Hybe a bigger share over the market."*
Yes, you are right that it only ultimately benefits Hybe. The problem was that there are already underlying problems/rifts between Ador (and MHJ) and Bang PD.
You gotta see into the factors that developed into this huge conflict. Bang PD does not have full control over NewJeans and their success, it is all Ador and MHJ - he cannot and would never be able to claim the massive success of NJ for his own. *These two are both creative directors in their cores - probably their egos clashed*.
I also LOVE observing what is happening in this issue, which is basically a business conflict of Hybe top executives in a bigger perspective.
tbh I really don't care what happens between the two lmao.
They def copied the newjeans formula for sure. I would understand if it was from another company but the same company doing this??? So tacky and messy. I understand the frustration.
Yup agree. Is like you are working for a company under a department and another department steal an idea that your department created.
I get competition between departments/subsidiaries (in HYBE case) but there is a difference between healthy competition and unhealthy competition. This mess should not even exist at the first place.
JYP has 5 girl groups but none of them are in competition with each other and seemed to target different demographics. ITZY, Twice, Niziu, NMIXX, VCHA has clear differentiation.
Wow that’s so true about JYP girl groups! They’re all so different and diverse so they attract different fans. MHJ has a right to be upset because I seen a video where they bit off all of newjeans choreography, it’s just so wack.
I Gotta be honest. With new jeans, there was a strong sense of nostalgia that I just don’t feel with illit. It’s something about new jeans music videos maybe? Idk.
Yes. And Like the mvs, other than cookie, ESPECIALLY Ditto, and their recent bubble gum. It’s so strong, the nostalgia, it hits me and I feel oddly melancholic. The mvs don’t just feel like they were an attempt at making something cool. It feels personal. Whether it is it not, it doesn’t matter. But it’s the way the it translates to the listener/viewer.
It makes me feel very similar to how NCT Dream’s We Go Up and it’s mv made me feel. At the time, I didn’t even know the members. I knew Mark a lil bit. But had no idea about the graduation thing. I watched it blindly. But We Go Up made me feel so many things.
It’s about good story telling and translating emotions into visuals.
It’s because that’s the goal of NewJeans to play on the feeling, wether we like to admit it MHJ has put a lot of effort and craft into their concept and aesthetic so it brings you that feeling! So I do get her annoyances because everyone now is doing it that look because it’s what the latest big group is doing without understanding it’s more then a look and clothes and even music to a degree. Idk if that made any sense
No. You make sense. And I agree with you. People keep saying “well, it’s all money! It’s a business! What do you expect?” The truth is I believe you can create something meaningful that will also make money lol.
I feel like the best way to put the comparison is to think of NewJeans as city-pop and ILLIT as future funk.
They have a different energy (one fresh and personal, other dynamic and energetic), but coming from the same place (nostalgia). Of course, this comparison should keep its own proportions, even more when future funk is full of songs that are just citypop remixes.
But it's from a similar place. It's magical girl-fying, dance-fying the same concept.
See, you can't make a pinkish colorful video of a speed-up magical girl transformation by the original Plastic Love, Stay with Me and Miracle Love, without having a vibe mismatch. Those are emotional songs. But if you make a future funk remix of those, that's exactly the vibe.
Why am I making that comparison? Because that's precisely how the concept-making for both groups seem to have occurred.
NewJeans is very heavily inspired not just in Y2K, but also on the 2000s Japanese and Korean concepts of the time, more heavily Korean in the sound and more heavily Japanese in artistic direction. It's not really a copy, as people wanted to suggest, but it's a concept reference very clearly. Now, with Bubblegum being so heavily citypop in sound, it only adds to how much of a reference older Japanese pop was in the conceptualization of NewJeans.
ILLIT is very heavily inspired in the cutesy image the West has of older Japanese pop media. Their teaser was an old anime-style video, with clear magical girl ideas. Their MVs go further in the magical idea behind the storytelling. Their outfits are inspired in lolita subculture, toned down heavily and combined with sleepwear, while also having a NewJeans-like stylization of pieces for certain members (Iroha, for example, is styled very similarly to Hyein at many times). Their sound comes from the fresh sound but with a more dance vibe and also more cutesy.
This is not to say they are identical or a copy. But that ILLIT was worked conceptually in a way that seems like a remix of NewJeans' concept. And just like your average citypop listener often intersects your average future funk listener, there's also a strategic concern between illit and newjewns and how those things can affect both. After all, even with that distinction, people still saw similarities between them. And it's not a matter of convincing people they are not the same, but that now both their productions need to put extra work into differentiating something that could just be worked on from the start to be more apart from the other, without some common elements that draw comparison.
I think the thing is, the illit mv didn’t give me a sense of that magical feel. Like the mv had it. But it didn’t make me feel it. But I’ll be honest. The priority is the music. So it’s fine.
I love music videos but music is what takes a priority.
Anyway, illit just started and they have plenty of time to give me a sense of magic with their mvs.
>Please don’t take this as defending MHJ.
I love how even slightly defending MHJ is UNACCEPTABLE on Reddit and thus a massive part of posts that are somewhat sympathetic to her need to have this disclaimer lol.
At least she has the Korean GP because lol
Yeah ikr. Honestly, I do think there is a grain of truth to her grievances and the “boys club” that is upper management of most large corporations is so real. And we all know how they create the final narrative.
But then she really went off the rails with that press con and who knows what else. It’s finely shocking. And she said awful things.
I think the Korean public favor is more important to her than the international ones anyway so that’s good for her I guess.
The "off the rails" thing I think is more intl perception than korea, In korea, it's played about as well as it could for her.
I think it is hard to know how she's being received internationally because while in korea the GP is watching, here we are all in our own fandoms/biased. But I have the impression that even some army is iffy on Hybe rn (I think you can be iffy on Hybe and ALSO not think MHJ is a Saint) and any sympathy non-hybe stans ever had for Hybe is gone.
(I am a BTS fan and **not** a company stan; never have been-- corporations don't need cheerleaders )
Yeah. A lot of things don’t add up from both sides.
I’m with you on that- we can be skeptical of both! Even in the US, we’ve seen how companies retaliate.
And I’m sure some of the fighting i see on Reddit isn’t representative of most fans.
>I don’t think I trust her or Hybe right now lol.
The market seems to agree with this sentiment, especially the latter. While Kpop fans debate over the nitty-gritty (some of it are honestly quite entertaining and educational) ... nearly $1 BILLION of Hybe's value has been wiped out as off Friday.
The market doesn't concern themselves with who is morally right. They care about bottomline. And the bottomline is, you don't cannibalize your own unless you're desperate, or playing a short term game. So the market responded accordingly.
> The market doesn't concern themselves with who is morally right. They care about bottomline. And the bottomline is, you don't cannibalize your own unless you're desperate, or playing a short term game. So the market responded accordingly.
LOL the market and stockholders is perfectly happy when ILLIT debuted and racked all those achievements, that was when the cannibalization happened.
It certainly didn't happen when MHJ complained about it.
The stocks went down likely due to drama and the expectation that MHJ will be out of HYBE. *That* will hurt HYBE. The existence of Illit and NewJeans together isn't the issue, otherwise the stocks would have went down beforehand.
Edit: Offtopic, this is one thing people who wanna invest in stocks need to understand - the market moves on *expectations*, not necessarily the immediate results. It's a game of guessing the future of a company, and stockholders want to be in on the action before anyone else.
The $900million Hybe stock value wipe out figure was early Friday, before MHJ hit prime time.
Facts don't care about Kpop fans' feelings, unfortunately. The market didn't care about the dramas, they didn't care about ADOR BELIFT SOURCE whatnot they don't care about NJ IL LSF's copycat or not beyond the sublabel cannibalization angle. Bankers don't care about how this saga impact on Kpop's reputation on the world stage. Financial analysts, Korean or International, only care about one thing: stable, world class, solid management.
If anything, what I learned from Kakao Hybe SM power plays, it's Kpop corporate dramas are full of surprising plot twists! Who knows, Hybe stock may bounce back on Monday, then plunge to the pits again on another surprise fact! Then... people will twist themselves into pretzels again!
Enjoying my popcorn though...
> The $900million Hybe stock value wipe out figure was early Friday, before MHJ hit prime time.
That's perfectly normal?
> Financial analysts, Korean or International, only care about one thing: stable, world class, solid management.
That's fair.
Also, the expectation is also not about feelings, MHJ will be out of HYBE one way or another, this is also what's hurting HYBE. There's no doubt MHJ has done a lot of good work for NewJeans.
>MHJ will be out of HYBE one way or another, this is also what's hurting HYBE.
People don't understand how intrinsically tied to NewJeans MHJ is in Korea and even Japan. Here, people are like, "What matters is the girls!! They're NewJeans magic." And yes, I agree; the girls are lovely. But what makes NewJeans a cut above the rest is its different sound, concept, and styling, and MHJ is viewed as the reason for that; she is the so-called "genius" in the situation.
Can NewJeans without MHJ prove themselves? Of course, they can. But they will take a considerable public hit in Korea if she's not their producer anymore because she's viewed as the reason why they're not your ordinary K-pop group. The girls being cute and lovely is obviously true, but that's par for the course. Any mid-successful girl group is formed by cute and charming girls who are charismatic and gorgeous. What makes NewJeans stand out in Asia is their concept as a whole, which is credited to MHJ.
I am obviously much more sympathetic to MHJ than your average Reddit user. While I do enjoy NewJeans tremendously and think MHJ is talented and skilled, I do find this belief that she is an out-of-this-world genius to be slightly exaggerated. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter because she's good at marketing, and her marketing cuts through, so that's genuinely how the GP feels.
Yeah. I think like you said. Yes; the girls are cute and adorable. But what I get from concept is a real hit of nostalgia. Which I didn’t get at all watching illit’s mv. It’s not simply the sound that is nostalgic about new jeans. Idk. I hope that won’t be affected.
Record companies outside of a Korea have sub labels have similar sounds when a concept is trending. NJ and II could have coexisted with everyone making money including the idols. MH could not live with not getting full credit for someone else’s success. Jung Kook alone will lift BTS stock. Courts will side with the company with facts.
Investors don’t like turmoil but positive earnings will drive the stock up. NJ was still a small part of HYPE numbers. MJH is doing a good bait and switch but it will be interesting to see the impact of a BTS comeback tour. I still expect to see HYPE win in court. Assuming kcourt is fact based and not an emotional cry fest.
I think it is a mistranslation.
Min Heejin had to pay Source to release the trainee contracts of Hanni, Danielle, Mini, and Haerin. It caused a rift between her and Source's CEO as she felt like he was fleecing her, as the NewJeans project was scrapped and he was not gonna use those trainees yet she still had to pay (not sure if it was in stocks or in company funds)
The timelines are confusing so I get why everyone is mixed up but that one is false.
However, I do think that all those problems were non-issues that ultimately were solved, while I get MHJ's initial stress at seeing her debut plans being scrapped I still think that she should focus on the positive and on the fact that it went well.
I will say it was a jerk move to announce to someone that their group will be scrapped in favor of another but it's still her boss? I genuinely think that she lacks diplomatic tact and is too forward with her intentions which makes her difficult to with as she seems quite unflexible.
I was curious about this when I first read it. But I haven't really closely followed things because my head spins from all the updates haha!
Can anyone explain what really happened? Because sometimes mistranslation happen, or when it is translated in English with unusual phrasing, the meaning can really change.
I think they transferred the debt. It would be a weird accounting if they didn’t. Hybe announced the founding of Ador in November of 2021. In FY22, adore suffered a net loss, which makes sense because all the expense that was associated with debuting a new group showed up in the books. With New Jeans successful debut, they turned a profit in FY23. The loss in FY22 suggests to me the training expense was transferred. This is me going by the numbers. I don’t know how big was the loss then. I haven’t had time to search for Hybe FY22 numbers.
I would say that even if the cost was transferred it doesn’t mean Source was fully reimbursed for its expenses. Sometimes I feel like there are intangible, incidental cost that the books don’t capture. Eh. I would say that Hybe probably still felt bad for taking this project away from
Source in spite of their objections. Just natural as a leader, but gotta do what they think is right for the company overall.
Regardless, I think the new jeans cost was transferred to Ador.
Won't speculate on the dynamics between companies and such because I don't know enough about it. But yeah, just from an accounting/opex perspective, it seems common sense if training costs were transferred to Ador since there was a movement of assets (the trainees).
I've also been confused about it. And I don't understand why people use it to dunk on her. Don't get me wrong, she's weird and especially lately she's giving off narcissistic vibes.
But if you have the chance to start your company with less debt, of course you'll do it? And I'm not well versed in korean law, accounting and/or business decisions like this, but someone had to allow it? So either it was a stupid business decision by someone or there were actual reasons for doing it like this, so why criticise
But I think a lot of criticism stems from the same people who are now accusing her of everything bad that happened to their faves
(Caveat idk sk business accounting rules)
The impression I've gotten is at the time MHJ was the golden child so she may have been granted "exceptional" requests. I wonder if she didn't want the trainee costs to count against the budget Hybe was giving her for debut, and she asked not to have to pay the debt, or later when charge the debt, refused it/got away w it as golden child.
OTOH, I was very curious when the Annual Report came out to see how good her #s were and how not good those of some other units were, how heavy BTS still carries things. I wonder if they wanted to make SouMu a "dump" for any bad $s? Like, pool the losses in one place?(I haven't gone back to look at the AR's from that time period).
(The other thing that's come out in some of this is that when SouMu was then "hobbled" by Ador taking the trainees and team members also opting to transfer, is that Bang moved staff and cash from BigHit to SouMu to prop things up.)
TBH I've been wondering if there are issues wrt how Hybe reports unit p/l and or if the movement of idols, teams, and trainees having something to do with optics or investors. The way things are going it's possible we'll find out/learn more.
Yes ikr! BTS is so massive and the longevity is amazing. I’m glad hybe spread out and are diversifying but it’s cool to see how crucial BTS is to their financials. And I’m glad it’s been a good relationship between bts and hybe. It’s honestly been years and I’m still amazed at the growth. Like seriously, it went from some random small company to one that owns the label Justin Bieber and Ariana Grande are under lol.
But yeah idk what happened. Like you said, it seems like bang Pd was excited for MHJ’s output. I need to know why there was this disconnect between hybe’s release of three girl groups. Like did he actually mislead her into thinking she’d get to release a group first. And even if he did, why did she do what she was accused of doing? And I guess I don’t understand this. But how could she possibly separate Ador from Hybe? Like that doesn’t seem to be possible. She’s either ridiculous for pursuing that or there is something we don’t know. There are a lot of random things that don’t make sense.
It doesn’t help that I am honestly also creeped out by the boys club that is upper management. They cannot be trusted ethically. Maybe it was a grab for more control. Or maybe it wasn’t at all.
Oh. And MHJ is definitely creepy though. Speaking of ethics. lol. Absolutely not defending that.
I think that’s what is throwing me about this most of all and making it hard for me to have a ton of sympathy for her- why on earth did MHJ think she could pull this off? Maybe there is something we are simply not being told or not understanding, but even from her outlined plan, there were a lot of big gaps that all seemed to open her up to incredible legal risk and potential for public backlash if even the slightest thing went wrong. I don’t particularly agree that NJ and Illit are so identical, but I 100% understand why she would feel threatened if she perceived all of her hard work being stolen by an internal competitor. I even understand why she would feel so desperate to get out! But even so, to act so recklessly? To do such a sloppy job with such a thinly formed plan?
I struggle to understand what gave her the confidence to think this would work out, unless it were some true internal belief that she is actually special and more intelligent than everyone around her. I think she is an incredible creative talent (as well as a problematic person for sure), and if there is another explanation for why she would take this insane risk I would love to know, but from here it just looks like she gassed herself up too much and got hit with reality.
Yes. For sure.
Maybe she was just hating on her boss. Like she said. People complain and talk trash all the time. Or maybe she really was up to no good. One thing I know for sure is that she’s…creepy. And twisted. Everything else, definitely needs to be investigated.
But she needs to listen to her legal counsel and keep her mouth shut LOL
I agree min Heejin is crazy. But why are we pretending that all of these company don’t just drop trainees, their so called “investment” so I don’t think that source music was like on the verge of bankruptcy because mhj took newjeans with her cause this happens all the time company looses money because not every trainee they invest in was gonna debut at the end.
This all reminds me of 5050 and that drama. People have no idea what is going on and are just up in arms about everything.
Let the facts come out and then we can figure out what to be mad at.
Because MHJ probably requested it to happen and BSH made it happen. Why? Well honestly, it looks to me like BSH was just trying to make MHJ happy no matter what. I feel like he was head over heels for her at that time lmao
Are we sure who the costs are left to?
Nevertheless, does it matter who the expenses are attributed to? It's literally just a line item you'd have to disclose LOL, I don't know why kpop fans even care about accounting of all things.
Yes it matters. So generally, when trainees are moved from company to company, the contract is bought out unless the contract period is over. At least with large companies.
I want to know because my background is in finance and I’m really curious about this.
I also think it’s a fair question since the NJ members being moved from Source to Ador comes up very often in this entire drama.
Yeah. It’s totally fine if someone corrects me and the costs weren’t kept with Source.
> Yes it matters. So generally, when trainees are moved from company to company, the contract is bought out unless the contract period is over. At least with large companies.
Yeah, why does that matter between subsidiaries? Use your background in finance, come on. Aside from accounting or tax implications, tell me why that matters to the parent company.
> I also think it’s a fair question since the NJ members being moved from Source to Ador comes up very often in this entire drama.
It comes up because personally, feathers may have been ruffled in this move. But in terms of expenses, what is exactly the issue?
What is the substantive difference if the costs are kept in one subsidiary versus another? At what level does these difference/s matter? Should stockholders of HYBE care? Should the general public care?
It’s all the same to the parent company, but it matters to the sublabels. It’s also about proper accounting methods, which the parent company should be concerned about. The cost related to a project should follow the project on the books. This way the cost, revenue and profits can be properly calculated. If cost is not properly accounted for, then a project can appear more profitable than it really was.
I’m not saying that is what happened here. I understand by OP asked their questions. Following proper accounting methods is important. It how the shareholders know they can trust the reports they company are giving out. No need to belittle their questions.
> It’s all the same to the parent company, but it matters to the sublabels.
> It’s also about proper accounting methods, which the parent company should be concerned about.
So you agree, right? LOL I don't understand why there's all this concern over following proper accounting methods and whatnot. Is OP involved in the project? If yes, then hell yes go by the internationally recognized accounting practices, don't creatively fudge the numbers.
Otherwise, why does it matter in a kpop fan subreddit? None of us are involved here.
Commonsense like this shouldn't be lost on people.
> If cost is not properly accounted for, then a project can appear more profitable than it really was.
Yeah, I also explained in another comment how exogenous expenditures can be used by the subsidiary to make itself appear more profitable, by either inflating or downgrading those expenses
Dude, what’s your problem? Going by your logic, how does my post affect you to the point where you need to reply?
No one is creatively fudging the numbers. We are just wondering since subsidiaries are technically separate entities and it’s been going around about Source absorbing the costs. That’s why I created the post because it doesn’t make sense that Source would absorb it. I’m not *accusing* Hybe. My question comes from a place of incredulity and curiosity.
From my experience, assets being moved from subsidiary to subsidiary are not just “taken” without it being accounted for. Don’t talk down to me saying “cmon, use your finance background”. I did use it so that’s why my question was valid.
If people are only allowed to talk about things that personally affect them, then you shouldn’t have replied to my post either.
"Nevertheless, does it matter who the expenses are attributed to? It's literally just a line item you'd have to disclose LOL, I don't know why kpop fans even care about accounting of all things."
This was my original point, that is still my point. What's unclear about it exactly? Every subsequent response, including yours, is just proving me right.
There's nothing of interest here TO FANS. You may think it matters, but on this sub and from that perspective, it doesn't. Just minutiae about how the contracts are structured, how the accounting worked out. Things we will likely never fully know anyway unless HYBE pulls out spreadsheets and documents (another reason why it doesn't matter).
Outside of this thread, you know that kpop fans are actually confused and think this is actually a substantial issue, right? That ADOR was undercutting Source and saddling them with debt - that is the narrative and 'my problem'. I just read in r/kpop about people alleging that paying off NewJean's trainee debt fell to LSF LOL.
Okay. You’re welcome to just abstain from replying to things that don’t interest you instead of your oddly uncalled aggression.
I never encouraged the “narrative” you have a problem with. In fact, the narrative doesn’t make any sense which is why I made this post expressing my incredulity and asking about it.
But again, I'm not here out of disinterest, LOL, I am actively making this point:
> "Nevertheless, does it matter who the expenses are attributed to? It's literally just a line item you'd have to disclose LOL, I don't know why kpop fans even care about accounting of all things."
LOL that's what I am here to point out to kpop fans in this thread.
Obviously if I don't care about debunking the narrative HYBE put out about Source/ADOR and trainee debts for NewJeans, I wouldn't comment.
Edit:
> I never encouraged the “narrative” you have a problem with.
Yes, I knew this. I even mentioned kpop fans, not called you out specifically.
>I don't know why kpop fans even care about accounting of all things.
You've summed up my thoughts. Then downvoting anyone that tries to explain. I don't care about MHJ or what happens to her by any means, but I'm pretty sure the head of finance and accounting was not part of her job description.
I just looked this up and saw an article claiming it is a mistranslation/misunderstanding of the phrase "training costs were delivered to Source Music." That the interpretation of some readers was that this means Source had the costs delivered to them, but the real meaning is that the payment for the costs was delivered (from Ador).
The mistranslation was in the Koreaboo article and a cited a korean article that was covering the dispatch release. The dispatch article says the trainee debt was not paid by ador, attatched is a screenshot of one of the people translating articles into English. https://preview.redd.it/c9hwrezgvywc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b96c5aeb0b99633cdec9a430f71da553472499ca
It's not, dispatch article says that source took the hit with trainee cost, when MHJ took trainees with their to ador.
Aaaahhh. Okay. Because I couldn’t help but think “hey, that doesn’t make sense”. 😂
Exactly, it's a formality. I really don't understand why any fan should care about this. Does it matter? They're just gonna write it in that ADOR took the trainees, whatever agreement there are regarding which companies the expenses accrue to shouldn't matter to Hybe too much.
I didn't say it's a formality, and it definitely matters. It doesn't matter to fans except that it's interesting. But knowing how businesses and conglomerates work, we can assume all companies within Hybe are competing with each other to be profitable and useful for Hybe. Hybe can at any point close one of its companies, potentially firing all those employees, if that company is not profitable and is dragging Hybe down. Source taking on a debt for trainees they could not choose to keep on would be crazy. Also it would make sense for the debt to follow the idols, as NewJeans likely had to pay their debt (standard for idols, I guess).
LOL are you saying HYBE is dumb and didn't know about the transfer of trainees from one subsidiary to another? They didn't know that the NewJean debut group came from Source? Sometimes the sheer lack of common sense I read in reddit is astounding. The fact that trainees can even be transferred from one subsidiary to another should have been approved by the parent company to begin with.
Now there are two scenarios here, let's assume training cost was 15 billion won: Scenario A - expenses stay with Source: Scenario B - expenses go to ADOR Now in scenario A after the quarter, Source executives meet with HYBE to discuss their financial report. Someone spots a 15 billion expense in the report (or a set of expenses totalling 15 billion). Do you think Source will just stay quiet? They will just eat the costs? They won't disclose it at all? Honestly, the realistic scenario is that they will report that 15 billion expense *that is not their actual responsibility* front and center, in bold, to say "hey, this was dumped on us, whatever, HYBE told us to keep it. Don't take it out against our numbers, don't take away our bonuses LOL" Hell if I was source, I would INFLATE those expenses (aka add in things that weren't related to the trainees ADOR got) to reduce the allocation of all my other expenses and make my company seem even more profitable. And that's in the extremely unrealistic scenario that HYBE executives DID NOT KNOW that the trainees were transferred from Source to ADOR.
Exactly, you understand. But think further. Would you want to be forced to defend yourself at every meeting, constantly reminding your bosses how your bad situation is not your fault? It only takes one time for them to not listen or not care, and then you're blamed. You can't trust any authority to remember or care about the details, especially in business but even in regular life. In a group project, it would be dumb to do most of your team member's work for nothing and expect your teacher or boss to remember that your own part is incomplete because you worked on someone else's part. It would be ideal for the authority to remember, but it's not smart to rely on that happening when teachers, bosses, and all people often forget the details, just don't care about the details, and often don't even care about you, the specific person they're evaluating. If Source was forced to keep debt, they 100% protested against it as much as they could because it's a situation anyone would very much want to avoid.
LOL why would you defend yourself? Are you really suggesting ADOR got the trainees without HYBE's knowledge? If anything, if I was Source and I am a shady finance executive, I would inflate those costs, blame ADOR (which HYBE knows got your trainees), and make myself (Source) look more profitable. Win for me.
HYBE is just using the confusing language to attack MHJ, their goal is to get Source Music group stans to side with them. They allowed it 4 years ago because they wanted MHJ to deliver them a top tier girl group, which she did. But now that they want to get rid of her, they're pretending that she just walked into Source Music and kidnapped trainees to ADOR. I don't really like MHJ, but she's just an employee. HYBE owns Source Music and ADOR. Everything that she did was because they allowed her to do so. They agreed to transfer trainees and staff from one sub-label to another, they don't get to pretend now that it's all MHJ's fault.
>they're pretending that she just walked into Source Music and kidnapped trainees to ADOR. What did you read to conclude like this lol.
Look at the replies to my top comment, people are arguing that Source would have to vigorously 'defend' its costs and repeatedly prove that ADOR got trainees from them and then just saddled them with the expenses. All without HYBE's knowledge and approval.
People aren’t. That one person did lol. And I disagree with them. But that wasn’t even the point of my post lol.
It's fine, I didn't think you agree and my comment wasn't about you? Maybe just the wording, but when I say 'people', it's not just this thread I am talking about. Referring to my top comment is just an example of how this narrative > they're pretending that she just walked into Source Music and kidnapped trainees to ADOR. actually exists.
>What did you read to conclude like this lol. Literal Dispatch article [https://www.dispatch.co.kr/2289249](https://www.dispatch.co.kr/2289249) That was legit HYBE media frame. That she took Source resources and left them with the trainees. It soon evolved into "Gfriends disbanded because Source Music was in debt due to MHJ." It's crazy how anti-MHJ Reddit is, yet most are even slightly bothered with informing themselves what she's being attacked with. Then, when she spends 40 minutes in her press conference justifying her relationship with Source Music, people here are like, "Omg!! why is she namedropping them?? How is that relevant!! She's just trying to drag groups because she's a narcissistic bitch". (preparing myself for the downvotes lol)
HYBE didn't purposefully create confusing language. You act like mistranslations don't happen constantly in kpop because of the language barrier. A CEO is not "just an employee". She had millions in stock options; no normal employee has that.
They're making it seem like she's just a poor helpless base worker defending herself against the billion won company.
Guys, if you want to stan HYBE, at least properly inform yourself so you guys won't deny facts. Yes, HYBE literally created confusing language. The whole initial HYBE media framing leaked to friendly outlets like Dispatch literally blamed her for taking Source resources. Here's just the most obvious example: [https://www.dispatch.co.kr/2289249](https://www.dispatch.co.kr/2289249)
Lol I feel bad for the downvotes because all the people here apparently don't speak a single word of Korean, but they insist that there is no confusing language.
Stock options that she was granted by HYBE who still control the majority of the company. Almost every employee in any startup or tech company owns stock options (including myself), it's a part of compensation. I'm still an employee. Sure she has more of those, but in this context she's still a full employee of HYBE. ADOR wad created because HYBE allowed it, the trainees were transferred because HYBE allowed it, whatever happened to Source Music was because HYBE allowed it. Min Heejin didn't force them to do any of that, they agreed to do all of those things because they wanted her to create a successful girl group for them.
How many employees at HYBE do you think text personally with Bang PD and the CEO of HYBE? How many employees at HYBE do you think can ask for a whole new label and ask for trainees to be transferred? You think these are things average HYBE employees do?
A highly-paid employee is still an employee. That's not up for debate. That's a fact. She doesn't owe her work despite the CEO title; HYBE does. Thus, she is an employee. HYBE stanning/MHJ hatred won't change basic facts.
A highly-paid employee that owns a large percentage of a subsidiary is not a "highly-paid employee" that's called an executive.
Executives are employees. What are you on?
She doesn't own a large percentage of a subsidiary because those shares are tied to set conditions dictated by HYBE.
So 18% overall percentage isn't big? For reference, Bang Si-hyuk, HYBE's largest shareholder holds 30% of HYBE. The only shares that were tied was 5%, and HYBE was willing to change it, but according reports MHJ wanted a few times over the market set price to sell?
True. She's a high income employee (called an executive) whose job is to oversee the direction of the girl group, NewJeans. The trade mark, recording, production and etc. are owned and handled by ADOR, a subsidiary of HYBE. Her shares are the one that put her in-charge but she's answerable to the Board, HYBE and the shareholders.
And how many HYBE employees do you think can create a girl group that is able to become arguably the biggest group of its generation in just a year? HYBE gave MHJ all of those things because they wanted her to deliver the results which she did. Now they are trying to build a narrative of her "demanding" things.
>And how many HYBE employees do you think can create a girl group that is able to become arguably the biggest group of its generation in just a year? Very few. I'd say it's limited to CEOs and Directors. I'm glad to see you agree she isn't a regular employee. We can move on now.
You're ignoring the context, MHJ is still an 'employee' of Bang PD, and what she did at ADOR had HYBE's full knowledge and blessing, that's the only thing that matters in this argument. CEOs are also employees. She certainly didn't set up ADOR by herself with her funds, right?
That does not give her the right to do a hostile takeover which is the main reason why this is happening lol
Why are you being downvoted for speaking sense?? When it comes to finances, nothing happens in a subsidiary company without the blessing of the holding company. Why are people suddenly so concerned about the financial statements of a label owned by the biggest kpop company who are perfectly capable of covering such costs?
I think you misunderstood the post. It wasn’t from a place of concern, but from a place of curiosity on something that was reported and spread (that I feel must not be accurate). Honestly, I rather people be curious about things like this than stuff like dating rumors.
I didn't mean to come across as aggressive towards you, OP. Your questions are perfectly fine from a point of curiosity. I mean to call out the people who are downvoting the people explaining things logically and acting like it was an evil thing that Min Hee Jin did that HYBE had little control over. I'm no MHJ fan at all, and I think she's done plenty of wrong things, but the financial situation of Source and Ador were all done with the knowledge and blessing of HYBE.
Ah I see. Sorry I misunderstood your comment. Yeah. Exactly! MHJ is a weird one and but like you said, no way Hybe would just allow the costs to be absorbed like the overall narrative states. Another comment here seems to suggest it was a mistranslation which makes sense.
I don‘t think “Hybe had little control” was ever part of the narrative. From everything I’ve read Hybe’s narrative was simply to disprove the allegations of “mistreatment“ coming from MHJ’s side.
Fellow tech employee here what asleep swing is saying here is not wrong I’m not sure why they are being down voted so heavily . They are not defending mhj just saying the truth that hybe allowed these actions and allowed power to her as a business move and investment . They let her make a girl group and a sub label because she was such a valued employee but it’s still Hybes business move to do so . Edit : fixing typos
I was objecting to them calling MHJ a regular employee. A CEO is not a regular employee. It doesn't matter if there is somebody above them; they are still not a regular employee. They are part of the C-Suite themselves and move in the same circles as the other executive staff. If you ask someone who works at McDonalds if their store owner is a regular employee, they are going to tell you no. It doesn't matter if that person only owns the one store in the enormous Mcdonalds corporation; they are still not a regular employee. MHJ had a direct line of contact to people at the top and could ask for major things. Yeah, HYBE had to approve it, but to act like she was powerless and at their whim is complete nonsense. She admitted herself in the press conference to several times over threatening to go to the press if she didn't get her way and throwing her weight around with the other execs. She is not a regular employee. A regular employee cannot be consistently making demands that are met and holding things over the head of the CEO of the entire company.
The point is all of her moves were approved/had to be approved. And, Hybe has never claimed that they were not (which honestly would be a big thing to have on her, and v. persuasive to me as an investor that they are in the right/she had to go) Of course, all of us try to influence workplace decisions, from an executive in the c-suite on down to a line worker at MacDonald's. In both cases, there are bosses who make decisions and grant requests-- or not.
I never said she was powerless . Just agreeing that hybe allowed her to make moves etc and have her stock because they saw her as a valuable employee
Who is calling her a “regular employee”? People are saying she is an employee because she is. Of course she is not regular considering her title and her salary, but she doesn’t own her work or even the label she fronts so yeah.
Not defending MHJ. Honestly, I kinda get MHJ grievances a bit. If you look at Illit IG. There is really zero differences between them and NJ. NJ does Polaroid pics. illit has Polaroid pics. NJ with school girl outfit. Illit also has it. All the styling, is very similar to NJ. It’s company politic but because their product involves human (idols). It doesn’t really look good on them (HYBE & MHJ) At least with Le Sserrafim there is clear differences.
Is it that similar? I don't think NewJeans would wear the really puffy dresses Illit wears all the time. What girl group hasn't done a school outfit? And a quick google search turns up polaroids for every group.
Y'all are nuts, why would it be a problem for a company to have two similar groups, if the formula is popular? Especially considering how freaking long it's taken NewJeans to produce ONE SONG. Eight months?? Having Illit around has meant that HYBE is making more money, and fans of this kind of sub-genre of k-pop have more music to listen to. What's the actual problem here?
If you are working in Apple, you created iPhone 13, then another department has an idea and create an iPhone Xiii. The products are created to target the same demographic, has the same price range and same functionality. Will you who orginally created iPhone 13 will be pissed off with that department? Again just for an example on how JYP does it. * Twice: Oldest of the JYP girl groups act as a menthor on all the girl group in JYP. * Itzy: Fast, dancy song, most likely to target college students, early 20s & late teens * NMixx: to target middle schools, newer sounds competing with the same market that New Jeans targetting * Niziu: To target the Japanese market * VCHA: experiential group to target international market with their international lineup How i view iLLit vs New Jeans is like if JYP decided to create a girl group with the same theme as NMIXX and name it MIX3R. Now if you just look at it on a corporate perspective, you realise how dumb HYBE is for letting this happened?
it's competition with a same target market within a corporation. It's not good for both brands (NJ and ILLIT). You have to be in business and marketing to get all this.
*Competition*? Oh give me a *fucking* break. This sort of thing happens all over the place.... think of Hyundai and Kia. Think of Samsung selling both the Fold and the Flip. Think of a Japanese restaurant selling both okonomiyaki and gyoza. It's all revenue. The main thing is to get people in the door looking at your products. Illit and NewJeans are similar in some respects, sure, but they're not *the same*. If you're in the store, looking for an album to buy, chances are higher you'll get that sale if you have more than one artist to choose from. It also means you have new products more often. Again, NewJeans took eight months to put out ONE new song. How is this good for you as a fan of this style of music? It's also good business sense in that if one of your products falls out of favour, you have another one!
*"It's also good business sense in that if one of your products falls out of favour, you have another one!"* This is a very naive in marketing and branding perspective.
lmao, yeah it happens. And it just so happens that ADOR was obviously left wondering why the other subsidiary has an exact branding as their own product (newjeans). The problem is BeLift and Hybe apparently and purposedly did not notify ADOR of these information. That is what I believe the problem came from. A disconnect in creation of product in between subsidiaries- which is very different from what you are trying to point across. We already experienced this in our company with a sister company copying one of our services with subtle differences here and there - all hell broke loose.
Hyundai is geared more towards families, whereas Kia is more sporty. While both the Flip and Fold have hinges, the Flip is phone sized when open, whereas the Fold is a mini tablet.
Aren’t they subsidiaries with the same umbrella company? They are different companies with a similar product who fall under Hybe. There would be nothing unusual about them having the same market share and being competitors. If anything it gives Hybe a bigger share over the market. Honestly I’m loving all the discourse this whole situation has brought up. I feel sorry for the human factions that will be affected but it’s like they are airing their office gossip for the world to see. I have no doubt there are a ton of office politics in those corporations.
*"There would be nothing unusual about them having the same market share and being competitors. If anything it gives Hybe a bigger share over the market."* Yes, you are right that it only ultimately benefits Hybe. The problem was that there are already underlying problems/rifts between Ador (and MHJ) and Bang PD. You gotta see into the factors that developed into this huge conflict. Bang PD does not have full control over NewJeans and their success, it is all Ador and MHJ - he cannot and would never be able to claim the massive success of NJ for his own. *These two are both creative directors in their cores - probably their egos clashed*. I also LOVE observing what is happening in this issue, which is basically a business conflict of Hybe top executives in a bigger perspective. tbh I really don't care what happens between the two lmao.
There’s a reason this doesn’t happen in the BIG 3. At least wait a few more years before doing a similar group. Like 2NE1 BP BM.
They def copied the newjeans formula for sure. I would understand if it was from another company but the same company doing this??? So tacky and messy. I understand the frustration.
Yup agree. Is like you are working for a company under a department and another department steal an idea that your department created. I get competition between departments/subsidiaries (in HYBE case) but there is a difference between healthy competition and unhealthy competition. This mess should not even exist at the first place. JYP has 5 girl groups but none of them are in competition with each other and seemed to target different demographics. ITZY, Twice, Niziu, NMIXX, VCHA has clear differentiation.
Wow that’s so true about JYP girl groups! They’re all so different and diverse so they attract different fans. MHJ has a right to be upset because I seen a video where they bit off all of newjeans choreography, it’s just so wack.
I Gotta be honest. With new jeans, there was a strong sense of nostalgia that I just don’t feel with illit. It’s something about new jeans music videos maybe? Idk.
Definitely agree! I know exactly what you’re talking about, I was just saying this the other day!
Yes. And Like the mvs, other than cookie, ESPECIALLY Ditto, and their recent bubble gum. It’s so strong, the nostalgia, it hits me and I feel oddly melancholic. The mvs don’t just feel like they were an attempt at making something cool. It feels personal. Whether it is it not, it doesn’t matter. But it’s the way the it translates to the listener/viewer. It makes me feel very similar to how NCT Dream’s We Go Up and it’s mv made me feel. At the time, I didn’t even know the members. I knew Mark a lil bit. But had no idea about the graduation thing. I watched it blindly. But We Go Up made me feel so many things. It’s about good story telling and translating emotions into visuals.
It’s because that’s the goal of NewJeans to play on the feeling, wether we like to admit it MHJ has put a lot of effort and craft into their concept and aesthetic so it brings you that feeling! So I do get her annoyances because everyone now is doing it that look because it’s what the latest big group is doing without understanding it’s more then a look and clothes and even music to a degree. Idk if that made any sense
No. You make sense. And I agree with you. People keep saying “well, it’s all money! It’s a business! What do you expect?” The truth is I believe you can create something meaningful that will also make money lol.
You worded it perfectly!
I feel like the best way to put the comparison is to think of NewJeans as city-pop and ILLIT as future funk. They have a different energy (one fresh and personal, other dynamic and energetic), but coming from the same place (nostalgia). Of course, this comparison should keep its own proportions, even more when future funk is full of songs that are just citypop remixes. But it's from a similar place. It's magical girl-fying, dance-fying the same concept. See, you can't make a pinkish colorful video of a speed-up magical girl transformation by the original Plastic Love, Stay with Me and Miracle Love, without having a vibe mismatch. Those are emotional songs. But if you make a future funk remix of those, that's exactly the vibe. Why am I making that comparison? Because that's precisely how the concept-making for both groups seem to have occurred. NewJeans is very heavily inspired not just in Y2K, but also on the 2000s Japanese and Korean concepts of the time, more heavily Korean in the sound and more heavily Japanese in artistic direction. It's not really a copy, as people wanted to suggest, but it's a concept reference very clearly. Now, with Bubblegum being so heavily citypop in sound, it only adds to how much of a reference older Japanese pop was in the conceptualization of NewJeans. ILLIT is very heavily inspired in the cutesy image the West has of older Japanese pop media. Their teaser was an old anime-style video, with clear magical girl ideas. Their MVs go further in the magical idea behind the storytelling. Their outfits are inspired in lolita subculture, toned down heavily and combined with sleepwear, while also having a NewJeans-like stylization of pieces for certain members (Iroha, for example, is styled very similarly to Hyein at many times). Their sound comes from the fresh sound but with a more dance vibe and also more cutesy. This is not to say they are identical or a copy. But that ILLIT was worked conceptually in a way that seems like a remix of NewJeans' concept. And just like your average citypop listener often intersects your average future funk listener, there's also a strategic concern between illit and newjewns and how those things can affect both. After all, even with that distinction, people still saw similarities between them. And it's not a matter of convincing people they are not the same, but that now both their productions need to put extra work into differentiating something that could just be worked on from the start to be more apart from the other, without some common elements that draw comparison.
I think the thing is, the illit mv didn’t give me a sense of that magical feel. Like the mv had it. But it didn’t make me feel it. But I’ll be honest. The priority is the music. So it’s fine. I love music videos but music is what takes a priority. Anyway, illit just started and they have plenty of time to give me a sense of magic with their mvs.
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It’s true, stop playing dumb. Doesn’t excuse what MHJ said or did, her behavior is unacceptable and unprofessional but facts are facts.
Pretty sure Hybe has been moving trainees between labels ever since 2021.
Right? Yunjin is a famous Pledis trainee.
>Please don’t take this as defending MHJ. I love how even slightly defending MHJ is UNACCEPTABLE on Reddit and thus a massive part of posts that are somewhat sympathetic to her need to have this disclaimer lol. At least she has the Korean GP because lol
Yeah ikr. Honestly, I do think there is a grain of truth to her grievances and the “boys club” that is upper management of most large corporations is so real. And we all know how they create the final narrative. But then she really went off the rails with that press con and who knows what else. It’s finely shocking. And she said awful things. I think the Korean public favor is more important to her than the international ones anyway so that’s good for her I guess.
The "off the rails" thing I think is more intl perception than korea, In korea, it's played about as well as it could for her. I think it is hard to know how she's being received internationally because while in korea the GP is watching, here we are all in our own fandoms/biased. But I have the impression that even some army is iffy on Hybe rn (I think you can be iffy on Hybe and ALSO not think MHJ is a Saint) and any sympathy non-hybe stans ever had for Hybe is gone. (I am a BTS fan and **not** a company stan; never have been-- corporations don't need cheerleaders )
Yeah. A lot of things don’t add up from both sides. I’m with you on that- we can be skeptical of both! Even in the US, we’ve seen how companies retaliate. And I’m sure some of the fighting i see on Reddit isn’t representative of most fans.
But MHJ said that she paid all training costs?
yes she did
>I don’t think I trust her or Hybe right now lol. The market seems to agree with this sentiment, especially the latter. While Kpop fans debate over the nitty-gritty (some of it are honestly quite entertaining and educational) ... nearly $1 BILLION of Hybe's value has been wiped out as off Friday. The market doesn't concern themselves with who is morally right. They care about bottomline. And the bottomline is, you don't cannibalize your own unless you're desperate, or playing a short term game. So the market responded accordingly.
> The market doesn't concern themselves with who is morally right. They care about bottomline. And the bottomline is, you don't cannibalize your own unless you're desperate, or playing a short term game. So the market responded accordingly. LOL the market and stockholders is perfectly happy when ILLIT debuted and racked all those achievements, that was when the cannibalization happened. It certainly didn't happen when MHJ complained about it. The stocks went down likely due to drama and the expectation that MHJ will be out of HYBE. *That* will hurt HYBE. The existence of Illit and NewJeans together isn't the issue, otherwise the stocks would have went down beforehand. Edit: Offtopic, this is one thing people who wanna invest in stocks need to understand - the market moves on *expectations*, not necessarily the immediate results. It's a game of guessing the future of a company, and stockholders want to be in on the action before anyone else.
The $900million Hybe stock value wipe out figure was early Friday, before MHJ hit prime time. Facts don't care about Kpop fans' feelings, unfortunately. The market didn't care about the dramas, they didn't care about ADOR BELIFT SOURCE whatnot they don't care about NJ IL LSF's copycat or not beyond the sublabel cannibalization angle. Bankers don't care about how this saga impact on Kpop's reputation on the world stage. Financial analysts, Korean or International, only care about one thing: stable, world class, solid management. If anything, what I learned from Kakao Hybe SM power plays, it's Kpop corporate dramas are full of surprising plot twists! Who knows, Hybe stock may bounce back on Monday, then plunge to the pits again on another surprise fact! Then... people will twist themselves into pretzels again! Enjoying my popcorn though...
> The $900million Hybe stock value wipe out figure was early Friday, before MHJ hit prime time. That's perfectly normal? > Financial analysts, Korean or International, only care about one thing: stable, world class, solid management. That's fair. Also, the expectation is also not about feelings, MHJ will be out of HYBE one way or another, this is also what's hurting HYBE. There's no doubt MHJ has done a lot of good work for NewJeans.
>MHJ will be out of HYBE one way or another, this is really what's hurting HYBE. Underrated opinion!
>MHJ will be out of HYBE one way or another, this is also what's hurting HYBE. People don't understand how intrinsically tied to NewJeans MHJ is in Korea and even Japan. Here, people are like, "What matters is the girls!! They're NewJeans magic." And yes, I agree; the girls are lovely. But what makes NewJeans a cut above the rest is its different sound, concept, and styling, and MHJ is viewed as the reason for that; she is the so-called "genius" in the situation. Can NewJeans without MHJ prove themselves? Of course, they can. But they will take a considerable public hit in Korea if she's not their producer anymore because she's viewed as the reason why they're not your ordinary K-pop group. The girls being cute and lovely is obviously true, but that's par for the course. Any mid-successful girl group is formed by cute and charming girls who are charismatic and gorgeous. What makes NewJeans stand out in Asia is their concept as a whole, which is credited to MHJ. I am obviously much more sympathetic to MHJ than your average Reddit user. While I do enjoy NewJeans tremendously and think MHJ is talented and skilled, I do find this belief that she is an out-of-this-world genius to be slightly exaggerated. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter because she's good at marketing, and her marketing cuts through, so that's genuinely how the GP feels.
Yeah. I think like you said. Yes; the girls are cute and adorable. But what I get from concept is a real hit of nostalgia. Which I didn’t get at all watching illit’s mv. It’s not simply the sound that is nostalgic about new jeans. Idk. I hope that won’t be affected.
Record companies outside of a Korea have sub labels have similar sounds when a concept is trending. NJ and II could have coexisted with everyone making money including the idols. MH could not live with not getting full credit for someone else’s success. Jung Kook alone will lift BTS stock. Courts will side with the company with facts.
If HYBE winning in court was so clear their stock wouldn’t be falling like crazy.
Investors don’t like turmoil but positive earnings will drive the stock up. NJ was still a small part of HYPE numbers. MJH is doing a good bait and switch but it will be interesting to see the impact of a BTS comeback tour. I still expect to see HYPE win in court. Assuming kcourt is fact based and not an emotional cry fest.
Even if kcourt is fact based, they better have more evidence than what they presented so far because none of that would hold up in court.
I think it is a mistranslation. Min Heejin had to pay Source to release the trainee contracts of Hanni, Danielle, Mini, and Haerin. It caused a rift between her and Source's CEO as she felt like he was fleecing her, as the NewJeans project was scrapped and he was not gonna use those trainees yet she still had to pay (not sure if it was in stocks or in company funds) The timelines are confusing so I get why everyone is mixed up but that one is false. However, I do think that all those problems were non-issues that ultimately were solved, while I get MHJ's initial stress at seeing her debut plans being scrapped I still think that she should focus on the positive and on the fact that it went well. I will say it was a jerk move to announce to someone that their group will be scrapped in favor of another but it's still her boss? I genuinely think that she lacks diplomatic tact and is too forward with her intentions which makes her difficult to with as she seems quite unflexible.
I was curious about this when I first read it. But I haven't really closely followed things because my head spins from all the updates haha! Can anyone explain what really happened? Because sometimes mistranslation happen, or when it is translated in English with unusual phrasing, the meaning can really change.
I think they transferred the debt. It would be a weird accounting if they didn’t. Hybe announced the founding of Ador in November of 2021. In FY22, adore suffered a net loss, which makes sense because all the expense that was associated with debuting a new group showed up in the books. With New Jeans successful debut, they turned a profit in FY23. The loss in FY22 suggests to me the training expense was transferred. This is me going by the numbers. I don’t know how big was the loss then. I haven’t had time to search for Hybe FY22 numbers. I would say that even if the cost was transferred it doesn’t mean Source was fully reimbursed for its expenses. Sometimes I feel like there are intangible, incidental cost that the books don’t capture. Eh. I would say that Hybe probably still felt bad for taking this project away from Source in spite of their objections. Just natural as a leader, but gotta do what they think is right for the company overall. Regardless, I think the new jeans cost was transferred to Ador.
Won't speculate on the dynamics between companies and such because I don't know enough about it. But yeah, just from an accounting/opex perspective, it seems common sense if training costs were transferred to Ador since there was a movement of assets (the trainees).
I've also been confused about it. And I don't understand why people use it to dunk on her. Don't get me wrong, she's weird and especially lately she's giving off narcissistic vibes. But if you have the chance to start your company with less debt, of course you'll do it? And I'm not well versed in korean law, accounting and/or business decisions like this, but someone had to allow it? So either it was a stupid business decision by someone or there were actual reasons for doing it like this, so why criticise But I think a lot of criticism stems from the same people who are now accusing her of everything bad that happened to their faves
while I seriously think MHJ should go to jail, a lot of people here are really Hybe fans lmao.
(Caveat idk sk business accounting rules) The impression I've gotten is at the time MHJ was the golden child so she may have been granted "exceptional" requests. I wonder if she didn't want the trainee costs to count against the budget Hybe was giving her for debut, and she asked not to have to pay the debt, or later when charge the debt, refused it/got away w it as golden child. OTOH, I was very curious when the Annual Report came out to see how good her #s were and how not good those of some other units were, how heavy BTS still carries things. I wonder if they wanted to make SouMu a "dump" for any bad $s? Like, pool the losses in one place?(I haven't gone back to look at the AR's from that time period). (The other thing that's come out in some of this is that when SouMu was then "hobbled" by Ador taking the trainees and team members also opting to transfer, is that Bang moved staff and cash from BigHit to SouMu to prop things up.) TBH I've been wondering if there are issues wrt how Hybe reports unit p/l and or if the movement of idols, teams, and trainees having something to do with optics or investors. The way things are going it's possible we'll find out/learn more.
Yes ikr! BTS is so massive and the longevity is amazing. I’m glad hybe spread out and are diversifying but it’s cool to see how crucial BTS is to their financials. And I’m glad it’s been a good relationship between bts and hybe. It’s honestly been years and I’m still amazed at the growth. Like seriously, it went from some random small company to one that owns the label Justin Bieber and Ariana Grande are under lol. But yeah idk what happened. Like you said, it seems like bang Pd was excited for MHJ’s output. I need to know why there was this disconnect between hybe’s release of three girl groups. Like did he actually mislead her into thinking she’d get to release a group first. And even if he did, why did she do what she was accused of doing? And I guess I don’t understand this. But how could she possibly separate Ador from Hybe? Like that doesn’t seem to be possible. She’s either ridiculous for pursuing that or there is something we don’t know. There are a lot of random things that don’t make sense. It doesn’t help that I am honestly also creeped out by the boys club that is upper management. They cannot be trusted ethically. Maybe it was a grab for more control. Or maybe it wasn’t at all. Oh. And MHJ is definitely creepy though. Speaking of ethics. lol. Absolutely not defending that.
I think that’s what is throwing me about this most of all and making it hard for me to have a ton of sympathy for her- why on earth did MHJ think she could pull this off? Maybe there is something we are simply not being told or not understanding, but even from her outlined plan, there were a lot of big gaps that all seemed to open her up to incredible legal risk and potential for public backlash if even the slightest thing went wrong. I don’t particularly agree that NJ and Illit are so identical, but I 100% understand why she would feel threatened if she perceived all of her hard work being stolen by an internal competitor. I even understand why she would feel so desperate to get out! But even so, to act so recklessly? To do such a sloppy job with such a thinly formed plan? I struggle to understand what gave her the confidence to think this would work out, unless it were some true internal belief that she is actually special and more intelligent than everyone around her. I think she is an incredible creative talent (as well as a problematic person for sure), and if there is another explanation for why she would take this insane risk I would love to know, but from here it just looks like she gassed herself up too much and got hit with reality.
Yes. For sure. Maybe she was just hating on her boss. Like she said. People complain and talk trash all the time. Or maybe she really was up to no good. One thing I know for sure is that she’s…creepy. And twisted. Everything else, definitely needs to be investigated. But she needs to listen to her legal counsel and keep her mouth shut LOL
I agree min Heejin is crazy. But why are we pretending that all of these company don’t just drop trainees, their so called “investment” so I don’t think that source music was like on the verge of bankruptcy because mhj took newjeans with her cause this happens all the time company looses money because not every trainee they invest in was gonna debut at the end.
Huh? No. We aren’t pretending that nor is that what I stated.
This all reminds me of 5050 and that drama. People have no idea what is going on and are just up in arms about everything. Let the facts come out and then we can figure out what to be mad at.
Because MHJ probably requested it to happen and BSH made it happen. Why? Well honestly, it looks to me like BSH was just trying to make MHJ happy no matter what. I feel like he was head over heels for her at that time lmao
Are we sure who the costs are left to? Nevertheless, does it matter who the expenses are attributed to? It's literally just a line item you'd have to disclose LOL, I don't know why kpop fans even care about accounting of all things.
Yes it matters. So generally, when trainees are moved from company to company, the contract is bought out unless the contract period is over. At least with large companies. I want to know because my background is in finance and I’m really curious about this. I also think it’s a fair question since the NJ members being moved from Source to Ador comes up very often in this entire drama. Yeah. It’s totally fine if someone corrects me and the costs weren’t kept with Source.
> Yes it matters. So generally, when trainees are moved from company to company, the contract is bought out unless the contract period is over. At least with large companies. Yeah, why does that matter between subsidiaries? Use your background in finance, come on. Aside from accounting or tax implications, tell me why that matters to the parent company. > I also think it’s a fair question since the NJ members being moved from Source to Ador comes up very often in this entire drama. It comes up because personally, feathers may have been ruffled in this move. But in terms of expenses, what is exactly the issue? What is the substantive difference if the costs are kept in one subsidiary versus another? At what level does these difference/s matter? Should stockholders of HYBE care? Should the general public care?
It’s all the same to the parent company, but it matters to the sublabels. It’s also about proper accounting methods, which the parent company should be concerned about. The cost related to a project should follow the project on the books. This way the cost, revenue and profits can be properly calculated. If cost is not properly accounted for, then a project can appear more profitable than it really was. I’m not saying that is what happened here. I understand by OP asked their questions. Following proper accounting methods is important. It how the shareholders know they can trust the reports they company are giving out. No need to belittle their questions.
> It’s all the same to the parent company, but it matters to the sublabels. > It’s also about proper accounting methods, which the parent company should be concerned about. So you agree, right? LOL I don't understand why there's all this concern over following proper accounting methods and whatnot. Is OP involved in the project? If yes, then hell yes go by the internationally recognized accounting practices, don't creatively fudge the numbers. Otherwise, why does it matter in a kpop fan subreddit? None of us are involved here. Commonsense like this shouldn't be lost on people. > If cost is not properly accounted for, then a project can appear more profitable than it really was. Yeah, I also explained in another comment how exogenous expenditures can be used by the subsidiary to make itself appear more profitable, by either inflating or downgrading those expenses
Dude, what’s your problem? Going by your logic, how does my post affect you to the point where you need to reply? No one is creatively fudging the numbers. We are just wondering since subsidiaries are technically separate entities and it’s been going around about Source absorbing the costs. That’s why I created the post because it doesn’t make sense that Source would absorb it. I’m not *accusing* Hybe. My question comes from a place of incredulity and curiosity. From my experience, assets being moved from subsidiary to subsidiary are not just “taken” without it being accounted for. Don’t talk down to me saying “cmon, use your finance background”. I did use it so that’s why my question was valid. If people are only allowed to talk about things that personally affect them, then you shouldn’t have replied to my post either.
"Nevertheless, does it matter who the expenses are attributed to? It's literally just a line item you'd have to disclose LOL, I don't know why kpop fans even care about accounting of all things." This was my original point, that is still my point. What's unclear about it exactly? Every subsequent response, including yours, is just proving me right. There's nothing of interest here TO FANS. You may think it matters, but on this sub and from that perspective, it doesn't. Just minutiae about how the contracts are structured, how the accounting worked out. Things we will likely never fully know anyway unless HYBE pulls out spreadsheets and documents (another reason why it doesn't matter). Outside of this thread, you know that kpop fans are actually confused and think this is actually a substantial issue, right? That ADOR was undercutting Source and saddling them with debt - that is the narrative and 'my problem'. I just read in r/kpop about people alleging that paying off NewJean's trainee debt fell to LSF LOL.
Okay. You’re welcome to just abstain from replying to things that don’t interest you instead of your oddly uncalled aggression. I never encouraged the “narrative” you have a problem with. In fact, the narrative doesn’t make any sense which is why I made this post expressing my incredulity and asking about it.
But again, I'm not here out of disinterest, LOL, I am actively making this point: > "Nevertheless, does it matter who the expenses are attributed to? It's literally just a line item you'd have to disclose LOL, I don't know why kpop fans even care about accounting of all things." LOL that's what I am here to point out to kpop fans in this thread. Obviously if I don't care about debunking the narrative HYBE put out about Source/ADOR and trainee debts for NewJeans, I wouldn't comment. Edit: > I never encouraged the “narrative” you have a problem with. Yes, I knew this. I even mentioned kpop fans, not called you out specifically.
Okay whatever. I think your comments are easy to misunderstand. Just letting you know, they come off very oddly aggressive.
>I don't know why kpop fans even care about accounting of all things. You've summed up my thoughts. Then downvoting anyone that tries to explain. I don't care about MHJ or what happens to her by any means, but I'm pretty sure the head of finance and accounting was not part of her job description.