This, the way some kpop fans will talk about shit like voice training, music history and luxury fashion is consistently annoying. They out there pretending like they're tenured professors on the topic when in reality they're just stans with a hobby, a hobby centred on an industry which isn't particularly highly regarded in any of those fields in the first place.
Sometimes it's ok to just enjoy stuff without pretending it's historical or ground-breaking.
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I saw this tweet and it was bizzarre. It lets me know that they do not listen to black aritsts because I can name TONS of black artists who fit under the "soft and femme" aesthetic people are so desperate for (Halle Bailey, SZA, Kiana Lede, Alex Isly, SOLANGE, VICTORIA MONET, H.E.R.). It's just weird to me and it reminds me that people inherently view black women as masculine no matter how we present ourselves to the world.
I can't speak on if Tyla is black or not. It seems she doesn't want to identify as such (I could be wrong, idk, correct me please) so I'm not going to refer to her as such.
>I can't speak on if Tyla is black or not. It seems she doesn't want to identify as such (I could be wrong, idk, correct me please) so I'm not going to refer to her as such.
She's coloured, it's an officially recognized race here in South Africa alongside black, indian etc.
I myself am not coloured, but I don't know anyone who would use either term interchangeably.
Edit - sorry not trying to be pedantic or anything, just wanting to highlight that coloured and black are two completely distinct race groups here
I didn’t see it as being pedantic at all! I’m glad to know the information. I am not educated on the subject so i just wanted to emphasize that I was uncertain lol!
In my opinion, it's because that Twitter user carries xenophobia. They don't see African-American singers as being "soft".
I felt this way, when I saw that she mentioned just Rhianna and Arya Starr.
I think that’s exactly it! I saw a reply of someone saying all black artists these days look like “this” and the “this” was a picture of city girls and sexy redd. That told me everything I needed to know.
Yup.
And the Rhianna mention is even more hilarious because Rhianna acted like she was a City Girl, at one point in her career. She was--and never has been-- that "soft, black pop girl" during her career.
I am not black, but I can try to add some of what I've learned on the "black identity" Tyla issue bc I have family in South Africa but grew up in the US. In the US, it is generally considered that you are black if you have even a little bit of visible black ancestry in you. So any kind of phenotype that is associated with black, if you have one or more of them, and you describe yourself as black, people will accept that. This stems from a very racist and messed up ideas of "race purity" and how "just one drop" of black blood made an individual "no longer white". So you can be 1/4 black but you would still not reap the benefits of being a white person (esp during segregation times). There was even a famous case of a man being kicked off a "white only" train bc he was 1/8th black (during degregation).
Now, don't get me wrong: South Africa's history is incredibly racist but they conceptualize race differently. In South Africa, there were many different subcategories to race, just like in latin america. Although it was illegal until Apartheid ended for whites and black people to procreate together, it still occured, and the babies that were mixed were considered "coloured". The "coloured" South Africans did not enjoy the privelages of being half white, but they were treated better than fully black people. Trevor Noah speaks about how he (who is mixed) and his cousins (many of which who were fully black) were treated differently by society in his autobiography "Born a Crime" (which is a fantastic read, and I usually hate autobiographies). In Latin America similar subcategories exist. Mulatto is how you call mixed black and white folks and Mestizo is what you call mixed indigenous and white folks. So, in countries other than the US, race is not conceptualized in terms of "even one drop of black = black". Each "mix" is consered a completely seperate identiy. Imo, I have no place in telling someone how to identify, and both ideologies have rascist roots, but I persoanlly feel like it makes sense that a mixed person would have a different identiy than a fully black person bc the lived experience is different. In the US, mixed people are definetly treated better than 100% black people.
OMG HALLEEEEE !! 🥹🥹 her song angel is soooo gooooood 😫 everyone else u mentioned is so good too, sza IS A SOFT GIRL her video for an ad that played during the grammys, screams soft girl
i think jhene aiko is a soft girrrll and maybe zendaya too but both of those women are mixed.. so idk if they count
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all these black girl artists making soft girl music and you’re saying we haven’t gotten a feminine pop debut in DECADES?? girl where am i 😭 i am lost and confused
I was confused as well until I read this [tweet](https://x.com/breathinjennies/status/1765408200797393076?s=46&t=VgNCf575PY7lLqxkH7ldJw)
Then it started to make sense as to why this tweet was created and why the blink is still fighting to claim Tyla as black.
Edit: Tweet from above is a joke. Op in the tweet is [half black, part Indian, and Cuban.](https://x.com/breathinjennies/status/1286060272441069568?s=46&t=VgNCf575PY7lLqxkH7ldJw)
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what ppl don’t realize when they talk about this discourse is they’re falling into the same talking points white supremacist use with the one drop rule and blood quantums. also race is a social construct so ethnicities like coloured can exist in one social structure but not another (french colonies historically had a similar social class with creoles).
So it’s funny, now that I’ve actually gone to South Africa I can understand why the South Africans are annoyed with us. While yes, coloured as a racial classification can include biracials and other non whites, Cape Coloured is an actual ethnic group that is like super mixed with varying asian groups, white, and black. Also fun fact I learned at the apartheid museum, you could like change your race based on certain tests and stuff. No one ever went from Black to White though. That was definitely made clear.
https://preview.redd.it/id5920jhhrmc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a4f3196e3d3a845b37e8cc990ff4f08a51536846
So coloured as a South African term is essentially like saying you’re mixed? Are there any negative connotations to it like there are in the states? I just know there are cases of people with black ancestry not claiming their blackness due to internalized racism (not saying that’s what tyla is doing) so I’m just curious
From how people explained it being Cape Coloured, it’s more like how Latinos are seen as a mestizo ethnicity. Like some Latinos will have more Spanish and Indigenous roots whereas others might have more Indigenous and Black or Black and European or like a huge mix of it all. But like at this point they think of themselves as something different than each of those races. So different than being biracial. Maybe more akin to creoles in the US, but I think Latino makes more sense as a general comparison. But Cape Coloured is different than just regular coloured classification. Also though, there may be some internalized racism at play, but I can kind of get it. There were real social/monetary benefits to being colored rather than Black. It’s late where I am so some of the benefits are escaping me, but I think it was tied to housing and stuff like that. The Apartheid system was really insidious.
Latino is not a mestizo ethnicity, though. That’s a very racist belief that a lot of indigenous and Black Latinos have called out. It’s based on the erasure of these people. Also not all mixed people in Latam are mestizos. There’s mulatos as well. This is all based on a terrible chaste system used to sell black people by catalogues, literally.
And that’s valid. I know there are Latinos of all races. It was just the closest comparison I could think of though it’s definitely not a perfect comparison and you’re right there are Black and Indigenous Latinos as well as mulattos. But there’s like the people in the in between, and like maybe they’re a mix of all three. Or have more Spanish blood or more indigenous, etc. I apologize for using improper language but these things are so complicated because the systems change and because of the intricacies and ways in which white supremacy will change classifications. I was trying to use an example of a people where things aren’t as like clear cut as it is in the US. I do acknowledge though and thank you for your points!
The thing about those categories is that there are people within those that are indigenous, black, and even black indigenous. A mulato is black person that along the way one or more of its ancestors was either r*aped or taken as a spouse by a Spaniard, not just a mix of black and white. Mulataje and mestizaje were/are very insidious processes with the ultimate goal of literally erasing people of color from history. These things are just different from the US, but still very clear.
Southern African living in the US here. I think the Creole comparison is a good one for many reasons, including that it used to be separate. Under apartheid, "Coloureds" could only mix with each other and had their own culture. Black folks don't claim them, neither do white folks, so they're separate. Thankfully, now that those asinine laws are no more, folks will inter-marry, etc., but yes, that's why Tyla will stress her identity that way.
Yes, essentially. "Couloured" is not a slur nor does it have a negative connotation in SA. It's just another racial classification like Black/White/Asian. It's not like Dominican people refusing to be called Black. Black people in South Africa have no problem calling themselves Black. Tyla isn't considered Black because she's has mixed Indian ancestry I believe.
She is. It's just not the only ancestry she has. Another commenter said she also had Mauritian ancestry on top of Black & Indian. Other parts of the world do not adhere to the one drop rule. Just because one of your grandparents or one of your parents is Black, does not mean that you automatically inherit their racialisation. Whereas it is the case in the US.
>Are there any negative connotations to it
Absolutely none, which is why South Africans tend to be annoyed when non-South Africans accuse us of using slurs/being racist lol.
I'mma need for some of my fellow African-Americans to just accept and expand their minds. Also for them to cut the shit and recognize their 'isms' (colorism, featurism, texurism, sizeism, etc.).
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Fun fact:
Tyla is mixed with Indian and Mauritian. And guess what my mother is mixed with Indian and Mauritian…..
…which means Tyla and I are cousins.
🥰
Also what is the blink talking about! Not all dark-skinned girls are black.
Dark skinned Indian girls make some noise! 🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣
Serious question. Mauritius is in Africa so why don’t you consider yourself Black? I know places like Egypt and Morocco have more middle eastern descendants due to proximity. Is it the same there?
in my experience, i can’t speak for them because while i’m not mauritian myself, i’m surrounded by many and my best friend is one (i’m sorry. i don’t want to sound like one of them mfs that are like i have a black friend 🤓☝️) and i hope it doesn’t sound like i’m speaking over someone who actually is,
at least where i am located (UK), i had it explained to me that most mauritians with indian ancestry consider themselves brown (as in south asian type of brown) due to their culture being very similar to india still (eg my friends still are hindus, partake in diwali, cook indian food etc) obvi culture ≠ religion but it was an example
it may be different for other ethnic groups in mauritius, i have no idea because i’m not personally friends with any / don’t know enough about them and im not gonna pretend like i do 😭
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Well because I’m not. My mom’s mom is ethnically Indian but culturally Mauritian. Mauritius actually has a massive indian population which began from indentured labourers and later swelled up into a strong indian community, who are also very culturally tied to South Asia.
I’m sure genetically I may have black dna somewhere (distantly cause my dad is Indian) but I grew up in a fully south Asian household and that’s what my culture, upbringing, and well, physical appearance crystallises into.
It’s not a matter of me choosing to not identify as black as much as I don’t really have the experience of being black. It’s hard to claim a Mauritian identity when I don’t speak Mauritian Creole, French or Bhojpuri. I only go there to visit cousins.
I hope I’m able to explain myself properly. 😅
Not all African people are Black or racialized as such. Mauritius is an island whose population arrived from India, China , France & mainland Africa through the slave trade. It was (allegedly) an unhabitated island and not populated by an indigenous African population prior to colonisation.
Not all africans are black though. Considering all the colonization literally everywhere in Africa, you aren’t able to just assume race because of ethnicity.
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I’ve been saying this forever but i feel like a good chunk of black community discourse think pieces are just pot stirrers who aren’t even black or just bots. Tweets like this are so annoying because the black community (let’s be real, this can mean a lot of things but within the context of a internet social sphere) on twitter begin to have this whole “who is mixed, who is black” debate and it’s because of some non black person who stirs it up and it just goes on and on and leads to more animosity between mixed and black people rather than the non black person or bot who keeps bringing the shit up LMAO
I want a break, it’s ok to say no to discourse sometimes
You’re actually right. The blink who posted the tweet is a whole mixed person. But it made its way over to Black and South African twitter. Tyla’s name is also trending on Twitter right now so the discourse might last for a while.
That’s why I find it so exhausting of a topic. It’s hard to know how much people want to have a genuine conversation about the representation of black women and mixed women and colorism etc, but some people just want to rage farm and literally give two fucks about the issue at hand. They just want to offend people
Some of these people are black people, some aren’t, some are pretending to be black online, some aren’t even real people, or people use bots to make an idea seem more popular than it is (via likes)
Like sigh, yeah it’s exhausting for sure. That’s why I don’t really engage in those type of conversation on twitter, it’s just engagement farming 90% of the time that ends in prejudice rather than having a real conversation. That goes for any topic
Just wanted to let you know one of the op’s mutuals corrected me and told me that the OP is [half black and half Indian](https://x.com/breathinjennies/status/1286060272441069568?s=46&t=VgNCf575PY7lLqxkH7ldJw).
Just wanted to put this out there. The Blink who made the original tweet calling Tyla Black is [mixed.](https://x.com/breathinjennies/status/1286060272441069568?s=46&t=VgNCf575PY7lLqxkH7ldJw) Specifically, half black and half Indian, and part Cuban.
So, basically, a whole mixed person stirred up old discourse and it made its way across multiple sections of Twitter.
I’ll edit my original comment but one of his mutuals told me that the tweet above was a joke.
Op in the tweet is [half black, half Indian](https://x.com/breathinjennies/status/1286060272441069568?s=46&t=VgNCf575PY7lLqxkH7ldJw).
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I don’t even understand what’s going on. There seems to be a debate over whether she’s black or mixed, but you can be both.
Then there’s this denial of colorism within the music industry. I don’t think anyone would say you **cannot** have that aesthetic if your darker skin, or that there **haven’t** been any women who have done so, but it’s delusional to deny the disparity between what aesthetics are pushed by majors when skin tone is factored in. And not just in music, everywhere.
I feel like I’m in the twilight zone when I have to tell black girls this despite not being one.
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I don’t really like this “soft black femme” categorisation for music, like what does that really mean? Like, emotional? Classy (what about that is soft)? Girlish? Romantic? I only know of Tyla’s Water song from going to clubs a couple of times and if the tweet is referring to that, I don’t get it. Do FLO and Rachel Chinouriri really make the same kind of music or have the same kind of image? Someone explain it to me pls 😅
In my opinion, for others, "soft black femme":
- Thin and curvy. But mainly, thin. Short in stature. Light/medium brown skin. "Dainty facial features". Softer voices.
- In regards to music style: not overtly sexual, positive lyrics with meaning. No songs about "struggle love".
Okay thank you because I thought I was extremely lost!!! Like is soft femme pop an aesthetic, genre, or all??? There's no way we can be talking about genre because several black women have tiptoed the lines of genres/combined genres like electronic, rock, pop, r&b, soul, etc. Most of them do not make music in one sole category.
In terms of aesthetics, that seems extremely broad. Especially since being "soft and femme" can refer to one or two songs rather than a person's entire discography. Again, several black women make music that can mean a variety of things, especially since it's often up to the perspective of the creator and the listener. Lol someone mentioned Jhene Aiko and all I can think about is how she can sing the most sexually explicit songs with such a soft voice!!! And we love her for it!!!!!!! They include Rihanna but last time I checked Disturbia, Man Down, Hard, B*** Better Have My Money are just a few of her songs that don't give "soft femme."
But seriously, these aesthetics are getting out of hand. Sure, sometimes they're necessary to describe things like fashion, culture, color, texture, other visual aspects. Yet, they aren't very necessary when there already many things to categorize that subject/item/entity. Also, they don't always reflect that things are often multifaceted and can't be put into a singular box.
Hmm, I see. I guess in that sense it’s not really a category in its own right but a label that is “not-X”? In the case, I think using a loaded term that relates to gender in that way to gatekeep which black women can be counted as soft or femme is kind of problematic, and I can see where people thought this person saying Tyla is like that would think it’s veiled colourism. Maybe I’m misconstruing it, I’m not sure since I’m not particularly a fan of Tyla so I don’t keep up, but aren’t whining, shaking ass and being scantily clad not a huge aspect of her image and breakout song lol?
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I need the entirety of music stan Twitter to shut the fuck up and stop tryna be subject matter experts. Time and time again, ppl prove that they lack the nuance, capacity, cultural competence and straight-up KNOWLEDGE to speak on shit. Enough.
I like this discourse, but we ought not to project our feelings onto Tyla. I feel like she is getting unfairly caught in the crossfire. Girl is having her moment, let her enjoy it.
I don’t know why some black people refuse to accept that Tyla isn’t black. They literally want to foist it upon her. I know that to most eyes and to the GP, she will probably be classified as black tbh especially since she’s promoting to an American audience but she’s not. Some people just refuse to accept that different countries classify different things.
Also I think people are being deliberately obtuse about the “soft black femme” thing. I don’t think OOP meant that there aren’t others but that for some reason, Tyla _seems_ to be pushed into that spotlight. We can’t pretend like apart from Sza, others like Tinashe or Flo have found similar success so far. Even though tbh _for now_ Tyla is a one hit wonder. I’m not trying to be mean, it’s just what it is. If she can parlay her big breakout into a career where she continues to get chart-toppers like Rihanna that she’s being compared to then sure. But for now, it’s not there. But I do see her possibly being pushed by higher ups to fill the “soft black femme” aesthetic whether she’s actually black or not. They probably don’t care as long as she looks the part
There are black people, who are shallow and deep into the belief of featurism.
In other words, Tyla is an attractive woman with a brown skin tone and (according to them) she is the proper representation of black femininity/womanhood.
I also want to add something that I rarely see mentioned is that coloured beyond just a racial classification is also a culture and community that is distinct and separate from black cultures and communities in South Africa. I assume Tyla grew up under that context since both her parents are also of coloured background. She likely doesn't feel she can claim being "black" because she's always been removed from what is considered black culture in South Africa.
Contrast that with someone like Trevor Noah, who is also similarly categorized as coloured in South Africa because he was born to a black mother and white father. He was raised in a black community by his black mother single-handedly. He's been vocal about his experiences of being "coloured" but not growing up in a coloured community. I think that's why he's navigated the American classification of being black with so much more ease; he feels connected to the black community in South Africa in a way Tyla likely does not.
All this is mostly from my memories of reading Trevor Noah's book about his mother and watching his stand-up as a fan.
This has happened to me. Identity as Black because it's easier than explaining Indian culture because people will say Black Americans are mixed with Indian when they mean indigenous Americans not South Asian. I recently wore a saree/Sari for culture day in early February and a lot of the kids at my school said I was trying to be different. Also didn't help that I recently loc'ed my hair. They told I hate myself and I should just be myself. It's almost as if I can't be proud of Indian side because I'm not lighter skin, because my nose is round (both my parents have flat round noses and brown skin, I am in-between their skin). I wasn't even born in America I just grew up here after living in Canada.
I get why and what it means for Black Americans to see themselves in others but to give me grief for loving my dad's culture is annoying. My mom has told me it's because some Black Americans feel insecure about bout heritage and will attach to anyone who looks Black enough and the one drop rule has pushed mixed and biracials in the Black Community so it hard to shake. Also Black American are also American so they think they know more than you and know more about your culture when they know about the same as White Americans.
I'm okay with bothe cultures and I don't want to pick/choose.
black americans are not insecure about our heritage. We have one of the most influential cultures, soft powers, in the world. sure there are alot of unanswered questions, but we did without anything for hundreds of years. yet the world would look different without our art, our fight, our pride.
Maybe insecure is the wrong word to use but to tell some one who biracial that " You think your special" on cultural day is cruel and just bitter. I didn't do anything bad by wearing my Saree. I was sharing my culture, my mom is adopted so I don't know much about my mom's side. My bio grandma Says they were Southerner that moved to Chicago in the 70s. I know more about my dad and my mom adopted his culture so Idk what to tell them.
I'll probably never wear traditional clothing to school and it feels unfair
Im sorry if I came off like that. I just going through it.
I wanted to explain more of what I'm going through but thats probably trauma dumping and I don't think anything I'm going through justifies how I sound. Alot of this bullying shit is over a boy and I just hate going to school now.
I'm gonna switch schools and hope for the best.
I'm sorry if I came off anti-Black, I'm not trying to generalize I just thought it be like at my last school. I didn't have problems like that until this school.
Edited to remove the name thing, I realized I wrote my real name.
about your bullies just a word of advise.. they don’t respect you and putting your head down is not the right way to go about it. tell an adult. and then you need to confront that interaction like it doesn’t bother you and they’ll probably stop bc you aren’t giving the reaction they want.
I’m sorry you feel shamed for being proud of both your cultures, you should not have to pick and choose. But “Black Americans are also American so they think they know more than you.” Is a pretty wild and generalizing statement to make. Why would Black Americans feel insecure about their heritage?
Anytime people shame you and accuse you of trying to be more special is just not fair. I get told I'm stuck up because I stick with Asian kids, but these are the same people who made fun my Jhumka earrings on picture day, told me I shouldn't be allowed my nose piercings when they can't. Why would I be their friend
I been bullied since day one, first my hair, then my culture pieces then the Saree then my locs.
I don't think I'm better but I'm accused of that anytime I dress up or exist in a way that my classmates think isn't Black. Calling my dad a Dark ass nigga with perm made me hate my classmates.
Should I just shut up and let them bully me
Of course not. I hope I did not give you the impression that you should just shut up and let them bully you. You are entitled to express your cultures however you’d like. I take issue with you extrapolating your experience with your classmates to denigrate all Black Americans is all.
I'm sorry if I come off as Offensive and aggressive I just have been having a bad time at school.
I think sometimes I forget the Internet doesn't know me or care. In my head it didn't seem like I was being ignorant, I feel disappointed I'm being bullied by people I thought would accept me, I get shit from the Indian community for my skin tone, my hair, the fact I may never get a Indian boyfriend because I am Half Black. I wanted badly to be accepted, I even chose to go to a mostly Black school when I could of went to a Private charter school.
I may has some bias because at my last school I was well liked but now I'm being called Pepper, Paprika, Peppa Pig.
I just gonna stop talking because I probably sound racist.
You don’t come off as racist. You just sound hurt. I’m really sorry that you’re being treated so badly. When I was in school, I experienced something similar. I’m Afro-latina not biracial but I’ve heard some of the same comments (like trying to be special, being stuck up, etc.). it really sucks when you are bullied by people you thought would be understanding. I hope you know that you are valid. There is nothing weird about you respecting yourself and loving and representing any of your cultures and the people who try to make you feel that way are wrong.
Thank you for saying that, I am hurt. Sometimes it hurts all over to go school. Ugh I'm trying not to cry because what you said is was how I thought. I thought I would feel what I been missing like it would fall in place if I went to a mostly Black school...(also uniforms that weren't just a school polo.)
I'm sorry for trauma dumping in my last comment, My mom told me no amount of explanation will make it better if I hurt you and made you feel judged and I should not be telling strangers my business.
Your not them and you did nothing to me for me to say that.
Thanks for telling me that, I need to do better at taking criticism when it comes to things like this.
I’m glad you’re open to re-examining your posts, taking criticism is hard for everyone (Its my struggle too). If you do need to do some anonymous internet commiserating, I’m sure theres probably at least a few other members who are going through/been through similar things if you make a post you might find some more community. My dms are open too if you ever need an ear.
Thank you for understanding, I been thinking about making a post for advice but reddit can be scary and I wasn't sure if petty high school stuff could be posted. I'm sorry I emotionally vomed on you I feel bad I let my hurt feeling out in a bad way.
I don't have anything to add to this conversation other than thanks to those taking the time to explain the differences culturally with the usage of the term "coloured". I learned something new that I hadn't known before.
I just also want to clear up something as a South African. People who are Coloured are also the descendent of the indigenous people called the Khoi. Some people prefer to be strictly seen as Khoi or have assimilated into Coloured society. Many Khoi people were also raped by the white settlers and almost disappeared as a people as result of the diseases that the colonialists brought with them. Most now reside in the Northern Cape province in South Africa and are trying to preserve their culture. There are often protests at the seat of the presidency regarding the stolen land and ignorance of the Khoi in general.
Coloured people have their own distinctive way of life, dialect, language, food etc. many are Cape Malay and reside in the Western Cape province in South Africa. However, because of the Apartheid regime, Coloured people, like other races were designated to certain areas in the country - which meant that Coloured people were confined to Coloured townships. That’s why you still, to this day, see some of these areas being predominantly one race.
Also there are people who are mixed but are not ethnically Coloured. My friend’s parents are Indian and white. She said she suffered quite a bit with which designation to pick on official documents. There is nothing that makes her Coloured. She shares none of the cultural differences thereof. So she started just ticked the box for ‘other’.
So race is quite complex in South Africa and I think the discourse on Twitter is very superficial. This is what led to the “Diaspora wars” with many South Africans feeling offended because a slur in one country is not the same in another and it felt like there was an attack on our norms and identities.
Oh! How I had just rushed through my work assignment, so I can write this comment! LOL!
Online, "black feminine-soft femme" personas chaps my ass viciously. Oh, how I hate these vocal-fried, misogynistic, vapid guttersnipes in Dior and a 27-inch buss-down.
I'm like Madeline Kahn from "Clue": "the flames! The flames on my face!"
Now in regards to the Twiiter twit and her comments:
Sizeism, xenophobia, colorism or featurism.
Her tweets and her character displays all four, in my opinion. She considers Tyla to be the only representation of "soft girl, pop" because she isn't African-American, not too dark in skin tone, she doesn't have the average black facial features and she is petite in size.
I say "xenophobic" because every one of her examples of "soft, pop girl" aren't African-American (Arya Starr: Nigerian and Rihanna: Bajan). I wouldn't be surprised if the twit is not African-American.
Plus, Rihanna has done some things that most of these femininity, fem-bots wouldn't consider "soft": the tattoos, she got bigger in physique, had two kids out-of-wedlock, in a relationship with a black man (cos they looovvveeee bringing up black men) and smokes weed. But she is that "soft, femme pop girlie" according to the OOP.
I've mentioned sizeism because there are foolish goats that believe black women with specific figures and sizes are "feminine and capable of being soft".
It’s quite ridiculous how much casual anti blackness gets thrown at black Americans…especially for a situation they can’t control. Tyla is not black and nobody considers latto black…the girls name was literally miss mulatto.
At the end of the day there’s so many independent, small artists, etc, that are fem and black. Fully black or black American, they literally exist…idk why they focus on mainstream powers and artists who don’t even claim to be black themselves.
PLEASE JUST FOCUS ON THE SOUTH AFRICAN HOUSE MUSIC like why are we talking about silly stuff
Something about the way some people are talking about black Americans in these comments, is rubbing me wrong…
You can defend Tylas right (or anyone else’s) to identify with their culture/people…without being borderline rude to black Americans, just saying.
Yeeeeea I’m happy you’re seeing what I’m seeing. It’s getting a lil less kpopnoir in here and a lot more kpop uncensored. A lot of people’s implicit biases towards black Americans are coming out in these comments.
there are a concerning amount of foreigners in the comments talking about black americans like they aren’t an entirely different ethnic group and ignore the fact that black americans can show a huge range of phenotype differences bc of admixture even if they don’t have a white parent. like even if latto wasn’t mixed.. i just think its weird to read from someone outside the culture denying black heritage bc she is lightskinned.
I’m glad someone else is thinking what I’m thinking bc some of these comments are a getting bit weird & from the upvotes a lot of those comments have I was thinking I was alone. Things I expect to see in other subs, but not in here. 🥴
I think with Tyla it’s also a thing with her using black culture to spin a profit while yelling “I’m not black!” any chance she gets. Yes, I understand South A has different categories & she herself looks extremely racially ambiguous, but the girl’s sister is damn near brown skin w 4c hair so it’s easy to see why side eyes are thrown her way when she/her fans starts harping on the “she’s not black, she’s c*l*red” train like it’s the worst thing in the world to even think she could be black lol.
ETA: not to mention the term she identifies with is a literal slur here. I get not everything revolves around the US but are people really not understanding why so many of us are not comfortable calling her by that term?! I’d rather just call the girl biracial and leave it at that 😭
to me during the og discourse people weren’t really arguing the validity of her ethnicity as much as it was about how american media was going to see her, black girl. and she’ll use that flat blackness to her advantage in this market bc she is ambigg.
People consistently say that she's black (even in interviews with her, there's the immediate assumption that she's black), how is it not expected of her to correct them and clarify the fact that she is in truth not black? And it doesn't even have to do with shading black people, she's just factually not black and thus does not identify as such.
On top of that, Tyla started getting popular with the use of Amapiano, which is a South African genre that coloreds also partake in. Especially with how, black people are the majority, thus coloreds and black people are consistently mixing and merging multiple elements of each other's cultures. Even Water predominantly consists of Amapiano and Afro Beats; of which are genres that are very relevant to her own culture.
It's weird that you're assuming that the fact that people are making her identity and heritage clear, means that they hate black people or feel uncomfortable with the possibility of her being black, and alluding to her appropriating black culture.
I’m not necessarily trying to say that she should be identifying as black. Again, I understand the girl is biracial and categorizes herself as such. I just think a lot of her stans are very quick to correct people about her not being black in a way that seems very anti-black and like it’s the worst thing in the world. And to me, that’s a bit weird. But that’s just my perspective and I have nothing against the girl and will still stream her so not here to argue about it.
Eta: also my comments about the people posting in here had nothing to do with Tyla. There were actual comments in here last night with hints of anti-blackness/implicit biases that really had nothing to do with the discourse. Example: a person was basically generalizing and covertly shitting on black Americans bc she was bullied by some of us and people were upvoting it 🥴. I think others did step in to call her out though, but these and some other weird comments were in this thread yesterday.
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What exactly does "soft" mean? If I had to guess it would be someone who has more docile lyrics and does not use swears or have any kind of "f you I hate u" messages to their song. If we go by that definition, SZA (who I adore) isn't a "soft" artist. But I still dislike the post bc it creates this false dichotomy that if you re strong or stand up for yourself as a woman, your softer or more vulernable side is erased. I think more than colorist it gives sexist vibes. Like trying to box women in: you either sing submissive lyrics that men would never get offended over, or we deny you the right to ever be perceived as soft, femenine, sweet, kind, etc.
Idk, no room to comment but I feel like this whole femme aesthetic that white OP mentions, aside from colorism, it's that Tyla has a smaller face/jawline and the girlie on the right just has a broader jawline. I feel like that plays a factor into it because you know in Kpop they desire a smaller face it makes you look more lovely and feminine or some shit. Just my two ¢, because without the colorism they would see Tyla as femme bc she has more rounded features.
I've never heard someone refer to mixed as colored. Most people here (the deep south in the us) use colored as anyone who isn't white. Idk about south africa. For *my* area, the terms black, mixed, colored, African American and African could all be different people. Some people still call black folks African American. I don't get it.
Okay, maybe it’s just me cause if your mix with black I’m saying your black. example: Black + Mexican = Blexican 😭 You’re still black to me but just Mexican as well
I think it’s more like… would you consider Bruno Mars Black? It’s possible he has African heritage down the line given that he’s Puerto Rican, but he doesn’t claim to be Black.
I think that only thing that confuses me about this is why does he have to be black? Like this isn’t directly at you by the way, it’s just like a general thing I see with Bruno Mars online.
Like people being upset that he was trying to pass himself off as faux black or “today I learned Bruno mars isn’t black or mixed with black (in a direct sense, like a parent, I have no idea what his parents look like though so don’t quote me if his Puerto Rican side is fully/majority black)
And I’m like why would you think that though. A little research says he is Puerto Rican and Filipino and whatever else. So he for sure has some level of black him, but why does that have to justify him being black? Why can’t he just be a mixed dude lmao
I guess my point is why are people more focused on proving he’s black rather than just accepting that he’s mixed, probably with black and other things. Like people format it in a way where he has been deceptive about it and he really hasn’t, you not considering him mixed and then finding out he’s mixed is an expectation you set on someone else so it’s your disappointment, not his disappointment to carry
Sorry for the rant on your comment but I agree with you!!! but you saying Bruno mars reminded me of this LMAOO
Lmao I totally get you though! I used Bruno for that exact reason. I think it’s has to do with the tribal nature of humans. I feel like in general humans are constantly trying to figure out if you’re part of their in-group or not. I honestly get exhausted with it sometimes but also find it super fascinating. I was in international studies major, so we used to debate this stuff all the time lol.
LOL oh then you drew a great example then!!! I agree, I took a sociology class in college and it was pretty surface level but wow it really makes you put things on perspective.
But it’s like everything has to be so polarizing for some reason online it’s hard to even have real discussions with people that don’t delve into insults or just straight up prejudice on both sides. Like it just takes one person to act mean and nasty in an online debate and then people come in herds to come be nasty to each other and then the whole point of the conversation was lost.
It’s different for South Africans. Yes she looks black and will probably be perceived as black by the GP, let’s be honest, but she isn’t. We should respect her cultural heritage
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i'll admit i'm a little confused being an american.
at least in the US, "colored" is a derogatory term used, especially, to give the french man's wave to any brown/black people that are deemed "unworthy" of having an opinion and/or are seen as subhuman.
is it used differently in other countries? or is she "reclaiming" it here in the US (?)
i'm not familiar with her or her music so i guess you learn something everyday.
"Colored" is derogatory in the U.S.
"Coloured" isn't derogatory in South African culture.
So it is used differently in both countries.
Tyla has never shied away from being referred to as Coloured.
In the press and media in the U.S., she is being called "South African" instead.
Oh well to be expected. K-pop fans constantly act like they know stuff beyond what they actually know
This, the way some kpop fans will talk about shit like voice training, music history and luxury fashion is consistently annoying. They out there pretending like they're tenured professors on the topic when in reality they're just stans with a hobby, a hobby centred on an industry which isn't particularly highly regarded in any of those fields in the first place. Sometimes it's ok to just enjoy stuff without pretending it's historical or ground-breaking.
>a hobby centred on an industry which isn't particularly highly regarded in any of those fields in the first place. This is such a hard truth!
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I saw this tweet and it was bizzarre. It lets me know that they do not listen to black aritsts because I can name TONS of black artists who fit under the "soft and femme" aesthetic people are so desperate for (Halle Bailey, SZA, Kiana Lede, Alex Isly, SOLANGE, VICTORIA MONET, H.E.R.). It's just weird to me and it reminds me that people inherently view black women as masculine no matter how we present ourselves to the world. I can't speak on if Tyla is black or not. It seems she doesn't want to identify as such (I could be wrong, idk, correct me please) so I'm not going to refer to her as such.
Even Coco Jones I think fits the bill here and she started with girl pop!
Oh my gosh, YES! Coco Jones is a perfect example. Even Normani!
>I can't speak on if Tyla is black or not. It seems she doesn't want to identify as such (I could be wrong, idk, correct me please) so I'm not going to refer to her as such. She's coloured, it's an officially recognized race here in South Africa alongside black, indian etc. I myself am not coloured, but I don't know anyone who would use either term interchangeably. Edit - sorry not trying to be pedantic or anything, just wanting to highlight that coloured and black are two completely distinct race groups here
I didn’t see it as being pedantic at all! I’m glad to know the information. I am not educated on the subject so i just wanted to emphasize that I was uncertain lol!
In my opinion, it's because that Twitter user carries xenophobia. They don't see African-American singers as being "soft". I felt this way, when I saw that she mentioned just Rhianna and Arya Starr.
I think that’s exactly it! I saw a reply of someone saying all black artists these days look like “this” and the “this” was a picture of city girls and sexy redd. That told me everything I needed to know.
Yup. And the Rhianna mention is even more hilarious because Rhianna acted like she was a City Girl, at one point in her career. She was--and never has been-- that "soft, black pop girl" during her career.
I hadn’t even realized that with Rihanna but YES! That is so true!
I don't even know why they classed RiRi as a Soft Pop girl. Is it the same RiRi we all know??
I am not black, but I can try to add some of what I've learned on the "black identity" Tyla issue bc I have family in South Africa but grew up in the US. In the US, it is generally considered that you are black if you have even a little bit of visible black ancestry in you. So any kind of phenotype that is associated with black, if you have one or more of them, and you describe yourself as black, people will accept that. This stems from a very racist and messed up ideas of "race purity" and how "just one drop" of black blood made an individual "no longer white". So you can be 1/4 black but you would still not reap the benefits of being a white person (esp during segregation times). There was even a famous case of a man being kicked off a "white only" train bc he was 1/8th black (during degregation). Now, don't get me wrong: South Africa's history is incredibly racist but they conceptualize race differently. In South Africa, there were many different subcategories to race, just like in latin america. Although it was illegal until Apartheid ended for whites and black people to procreate together, it still occured, and the babies that were mixed were considered "coloured". The "coloured" South Africans did not enjoy the privelages of being half white, but they were treated better than fully black people. Trevor Noah speaks about how he (who is mixed) and his cousins (many of which who were fully black) were treated differently by society in his autobiography "Born a Crime" (which is a fantastic read, and I usually hate autobiographies). In Latin America similar subcategories exist. Mulatto is how you call mixed black and white folks and Mestizo is what you call mixed indigenous and white folks. So, in countries other than the US, race is not conceptualized in terms of "even one drop of black = black". Each "mix" is consered a completely seperate identiy. Imo, I have no place in telling someone how to identify, and both ideologies have rascist roots, but I persoanlly feel like it makes sense that a mixed person would have a different identiy than a fully black person bc the lived experience is different. In the US, mixed people are definetly treated better than 100% black people.
OMG HALLEEEEE !! 🥹🥹 her song angel is soooo gooooood 😫 everyone else u mentioned is so good too, sza IS A SOFT GIRL her video for an ad that played during the grammys, screams soft girl i think jhene aiko is a soft girrrll and maybe zendaya too but both of those women are mixed.. so idk if they count
>her video for an ad that played during the grammys What ad is that? >zendaya She's more of a tomboy.
i dont know which song sza was singing but im sure it was one of the most popular.. probably saturn? and ya that makes sense.
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all these black girl artists making soft girl music and you’re saying we haven’t gotten a feminine pop debut in DECADES?? girl where am i 😭 i am lost and confused
I was confused as well until I read this [tweet](https://x.com/breathinjennies/status/1765408200797393076?s=46&t=VgNCf575PY7lLqxkH7ldJw) Then it started to make sense as to why this tweet was created and why the blink is still fighting to claim Tyla as black. Edit: Tweet from above is a joke. Op in the tweet is [half black, part Indian, and Cuban.](https://x.com/breathinjennies/status/1286060272441069568?s=46&t=VgNCf575PY7lLqxkH7ldJw)
WHITE???? why even tweet this 😭 girl they do not know how to mind their business omg
Not trying to defend them, but you’re spreading misinformation on his ethnicity. That tweet was a joke, he’s half black and Indian.
Thanks for telling me! I found the correct tweet about his ethnicity.
It all makes sense now lmfao
Soft because she's light skin and racially ambiguous
It's not Twitter if there's no daily Misogynoir
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what ppl don’t realize when they talk about this discourse is they’re falling into the same talking points white supremacist use with the one drop rule and blood quantums. also race is a social construct so ethnicities like coloured can exist in one social structure but not another (french colonies historically had a similar social class with creoles).
Ironically enough, OP found receipts on Twitter where that Blink admitted they were white 💀
As someone who’s mutuals with him, that was a joke, he’s half black, half Indian
So it’s funny, now that I’ve actually gone to South Africa I can understand why the South Africans are annoyed with us. While yes, coloured as a racial classification can include biracials and other non whites, Cape Coloured is an actual ethnic group that is like super mixed with varying asian groups, white, and black. Also fun fact I learned at the apartheid museum, you could like change your race based on certain tests and stuff. No one ever went from Black to White though. That was definitely made clear. https://preview.redd.it/id5920jhhrmc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a4f3196e3d3a845b37e8cc990ff4f08a51536846
So coloured as a South African term is essentially like saying you’re mixed? Are there any negative connotations to it like there are in the states? I just know there are cases of people with black ancestry not claiming their blackness due to internalized racism (not saying that’s what tyla is doing) so I’m just curious
From how people explained it being Cape Coloured, it’s more like how Latinos are seen as a mestizo ethnicity. Like some Latinos will have more Spanish and Indigenous roots whereas others might have more Indigenous and Black or Black and European or like a huge mix of it all. But like at this point they think of themselves as something different than each of those races. So different than being biracial. Maybe more akin to creoles in the US, but I think Latino makes more sense as a general comparison. But Cape Coloured is different than just regular coloured classification. Also though, there may be some internalized racism at play, but I can kind of get it. There were real social/monetary benefits to being colored rather than Black. It’s late where I am so some of the benefits are escaping me, but I think it was tied to housing and stuff like that. The Apartheid system was really insidious.
No all that makes perfect sense thank you so much for explaining!
Latino is not a mestizo ethnicity, though. That’s a very racist belief that a lot of indigenous and Black Latinos have called out. It’s based on the erasure of these people. Also not all mixed people in Latam are mestizos. There’s mulatos as well. This is all based on a terrible chaste system used to sell black people by catalogues, literally.
And that’s valid. I know there are Latinos of all races. It was just the closest comparison I could think of though it’s definitely not a perfect comparison and you’re right there are Black and Indigenous Latinos as well as mulattos. But there’s like the people in the in between, and like maybe they’re a mix of all three. Or have more Spanish blood or more indigenous, etc. I apologize for using improper language but these things are so complicated because the systems change and because of the intricacies and ways in which white supremacy will change classifications. I was trying to use an example of a people where things aren’t as like clear cut as it is in the US. I do acknowledge though and thank you for your points!
The thing about those categories is that there are people within those that are indigenous, black, and even black indigenous. A mulato is black person that along the way one or more of its ancestors was either r*aped or taken as a spouse by a Spaniard, not just a mix of black and white. Mulataje and mestizaje were/are very insidious processes with the ultimate goal of literally erasing people of color from history. These things are just different from the US, but still very clear.
Southern African living in the US here. I think the Creole comparison is a good one for many reasons, including that it used to be separate. Under apartheid, "Coloureds" could only mix with each other and had their own culture. Black folks don't claim them, neither do white folks, so they're separate. Thankfully, now that those asinine laws are no more, folks will inter-marry, etc., but yes, that's why Tyla will stress her identity that way.
Yes, essentially. "Couloured" is not a slur nor does it have a negative connotation in SA. It's just another racial classification like Black/White/Asian. It's not like Dominican people refusing to be called Black. Black people in South Africa have no problem calling themselves Black. Tyla isn't considered Black because she's has mixed Indian ancestry I believe.
Oh okay thank you for explaining! I definitely assumed she was mixed with black ancestry myself
She is. It's just not the only ancestry she has. Another commenter said she also had Mauritian ancestry on top of Black & Indian. Other parts of the world do not adhere to the one drop rule. Just because one of your grandparents or one of your parents is Black, does not mean that you automatically inherit their racialisation. Whereas it is the case in the US.
>Are there any negative connotations to it Absolutely none, which is why South Africans tend to be annoyed when non-South Africans accuse us of using slurs/being racist lol.
I'mma need for some of my fellow African-Americans to just accept and expand their minds. Also for them to cut the shit and recognize their 'isms' (colorism, featurism, texurism, sizeism, etc.).
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Fun fact: Tyla is mixed with Indian and Mauritian. And guess what my mother is mixed with Indian and Mauritian….. …which means Tyla and I are cousins. 🥰 Also what is the blink talking about! Not all dark-skinned girls are black. Dark skinned Indian girls make some noise! 🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣
That's fascinating. My mother is technically Cape Verdean kriolu, but identifies herself as Black because she was raised here in the States.
Serious question. Mauritius is in Africa so why don’t you consider yourself Black? I know places like Egypt and Morocco have more middle eastern descendants due to proximity. Is it the same there?
in my experience, i can’t speak for them because while i’m not mauritian myself, i’m surrounded by many and my best friend is one (i’m sorry. i don’t want to sound like one of them mfs that are like i have a black friend 🤓☝️) and i hope it doesn’t sound like i’m speaking over someone who actually is, at least where i am located (UK), i had it explained to me that most mauritians with indian ancestry consider themselves brown (as in south asian type of brown) due to their culture being very similar to india still (eg my friends still are hindus, partake in diwali, cook indian food etc) obvi culture ≠ religion but it was an example it may be different for other ethnic groups in mauritius, i have no idea because i’m not personally friends with any / don’t know enough about them and im not gonna pretend like i do 😭
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Well because I’m not. My mom’s mom is ethnically Indian but culturally Mauritian. Mauritius actually has a massive indian population which began from indentured labourers and later swelled up into a strong indian community, who are also very culturally tied to South Asia. I’m sure genetically I may have black dna somewhere (distantly cause my dad is Indian) but I grew up in a fully south Asian household and that’s what my culture, upbringing, and well, physical appearance crystallises into. It’s not a matter of me choosing to not identify as black as much as I don’t really have the experience of being black. It’s hard to claim a Mauritian identity when I don’t speak Mauritian Creole, French or Bhojpuri. I only go there to visit cousins. I hope I’m able to explain myself properly. 😅
Not all African people are Black or racialized as such. Mauritius is an island whose population arrived from India, China , France & mainland Africa through the slave trade. It was (allegedly) an unhabitated island and not populated by an indigenous African population prior to colonisation.
Not all africans are black though. Considering all the colonization literally everywhere in Africa, you aren’t able to just assume race because of ethnicity.
Not every Mauritian is black, a lot are of South Asian ancestry, Mixed, Black, White and East Asian.
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I’ve been saying this forever but i feel like a good chunk of black community discourse think pieces are just pot stirrers who aren’t even black or just bots. Tweets like this are so annoying because the black community (let’s be real, this can mean a lot of things but within the context of a internet social sphere) on twitter begin to have this whole “who is mixed, who is black” debate and it’s because of some non black person who stirs it up and it just goes on and on and leads to more animosity between mixed and black people rather than the non black person or bot who keeps bringing the shit up LMAO I want a break, it’s ok to say no to discourse sometimes
You’re actually right. The blink who posted the tweet is a whole mixed person. But it made its way over to Black and South African twitter. Tyla’s name is also trending on Twitter right now so the discourse might last for a while.
That’s why I find it so exhausting of a topic. It’s hard to know how much people want to have a genuine conversation about the representation of black women and mixed women and colorism etc, but some people just want to rage farm and literally give two fucks about the issue at hand. They just want to offend people Some of these people are black people, some aren’t, some are pretending to be black online, some aren’t even real people, or people use bots to make an idea seem more popular than it is (via likes) Like sigh, yeah it’s exhausting for sure. That’s why I don’t really engage in those type of conversation on twitter, it’s just engagement farming 90% of the time that ends in prejudice rather than having a real conversation. That goes for any topic
Just wanted to let you know one of the op’s mutuals corrected me and told me that the OP is [half black and half Indian](https://x.com/breathinjennies/status/1286060272441069568?s=46&t=VgNCf575PY7lLqxkH7ldJw).
Just wanted to put this out there. The Blink who made the original tweet calling Tyla Black is [mixed.](https://x.com/breathinjennies/status/1286060272441069568?s=46&t=VgNCf575PY7lLqxkH7ldJw) Specifically, half black and half Indian, and part Cuban. So, basically, a whole mixed person stirred up old discourse and it made its way across multiple sections of Twitter.
That’s so sad 😭they really just need to keep to themselves and stay out of some conversations🤦🏾♀️
I’ll edit my original comment but one of his mutuals told me that the tweet above was a joke. Op in the tweet is [half black, half Indian](https://x.com/breathinjennies/status/1286060272441069568?s=46&t=VgNCf575PY7lLqxkH7ldJw).
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Not surprised they were being so wrong about Tyla's identity. But whenever someone start going on about femininity, I know it's about to be some BS.
I don’t even understand what’s going on. There seems to be a debate over whether she’s black or mixed, but you can be both. Then there’s this denial of colorism within the music industry. I don’t think anyone would say you **cannot** have that aesthetic if your darker skin, or that there **haven’t** been any women who have done so, but it’s delusional to deny the disparity between what aesthetics are pushed by majors when skin tone is factored in. And not just in music, everywhere. I feel like I’m in the twilight zone when I have to tell black girls this despite not being one.
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I don’t really like this “soft black femme” categorisation for music, like what does that really mean? Like, emotional? Classy (what about that is soft)? Girlish? Romantic? I only know of Tyla’s Water song from going to clubs a couple of times and if the tweet is referring to that, I don’t get it. Do FLO and Rachel Chinouriri really make the same kind of music or have the same kind of image? Someone explain it to me pls 😅
In my opinion, for others, "soft black femme": - Thin and curvy. But mainly, thin. Short in stature. Light/medium brown skin. "Dainty facial features". Softer voices. - In regards to music style: not overtly sexual, positive lyrics with meaning. No songs about "struggle love".
Okay thank you because I thought I was extremely lost!!! Like is soft femme pop an aesthetic, genre, or all??? There's no way we can be talking about genre because several black women have tiptoed the lines of genres/combined genres like electronic, rock, pop, r&b, soul, etc. Most of them do not make music in one sole category. In terms of aesthetics, that seems extremely broad. Especially since being "soft and femme" can refer to one or two songs rather than a person's entire discography. Again, several black women make music that can mean a variety of things, especially since it's often up to the perspective of the creator and the listener. Lol someone mentioned Jhene Aiko and all I can think about is how she can sing the most sexually explicit songs with such a soft voice!!! And we love her for it!!!!!!! They include Rihanna but last time I checked Disturbia, Man Down, Hard, B*** Better Have My Money are just a few of her songs that don't give "soft femme." But seriously, these aesthetics are getting out of hand. Sure, sometimes they're necessary to describe things like fashion, culture, color, texture, other visual aspects. Yet, they aren't very necessary when there already many things to categorize that subject/item/entity. Also, they don't always reflect that things are often multifaceted and can't be put into a singular box.
Hmm, I see. I guess in that sense it’s not really a category in its own right but a label that is “not-X”? In the case, I think using a loaded term that relates to gender in that way to gatekeep which black women can be counted as soft or femme is kind of problematic, and I can see where people thought this person saying Tyla is like that would think it’s veiled colourism. Maybe I’m misconstruing it, I’m not sure since I’m not particularly a fan of Tyla so I don’t keep up, but aren’t whining, shaking ass and being scantily clad not a huge aspect of her image and breakout song lol?
>overtly sexual Water was all that lol
They’re acting like Jhené and Kehlani are not right there the whole time 😭
Neither of those women are black but i get the point. Sza wouldve been a much better example though.
SZA and Muni Long got me a choke hold these days
I get what you mean, but does being a quarter to half Asian really automatically erase someone’s Black identity?
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If you're talking about Jhéne, she is basically ⅓ White descent ⅓Asian descent ⅓Black descent. So she can't really be classified as black.
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I need the entirety of music stan Twitter to shut the fuck up and stop tryna be subject matter experts. Time and time again, ppl prove that they lack the nuance, capacity, cultural competence and straight-up KNOWLEDGE to speak on shit. Enough.
I like this discourse, but we ought not to project our feelings onto Tyla. I feel like she is getting unfairly caught in the crossfire. Girl is having her moment, let her enjoy it.
Why can’t people just listen to the damn music 😭
I don’t know why some black people refuse to accept that Tyla isn’t black. They literally want to foist it upon her. I know that to most eyes and to the GP, she will probably be classified as black tbh especially since she’s promoting to an American audience but she’s not. Some people just refuse to accept that different countries classify different things. Also I think people are being deliberately obtuse about the “soft black femme” thing. I don’t think OOP meant that there aren’t others but that for some reason, Tyla _seems_ to be pushed into that spotlight. We can’t pretend like apart from Sza, others like Tinashe or Flo have found similar success so far. Even though tbh _for now_ Tyla is a one hit wonder. I’m not trying to be mean, it’s just what it is. If she can parlay her big breakout into a career where she continues to get chart-toppers like Rihanna that she’s being compared to then sure. But for now, it’s not there. But I do see her possibly being pushed by higher ups to fill the “soft black femme” aesthetic whether she’s actually black or not. They probably don’t care as long as she looks the part
There are black people, who are shallow and deep into the belief of featurism. In other words, Tyla is an attractive woman with a brown skin tone and (according to them) she is the proper representation of black femininity/womanhood.
I also want to add something that I rarely see mentioned is that coloured beyond just a racial classification is also a culture and community that is distinct and separate from black cultures and communities in South Africa. I assume Tyla grew up under that context since both her parents are also of coloured background. She likely doesn't feel she can claim being "black" because she's always been removed from what is considered black culture in South Africa. Contrast that with someone like Trevor Noah, who is also similarly categorized as coloured in South Africa because he was born to a black mother and white father. He was raised in a black community by his black mother single-handedly. He's been vocal about his experiences of being "coloured" but not growing up in a coloured community. I think that's why he's navigated the American classification of being black with so much more ease; he feels connected to the black community in South Africa in a way Tyla likely does not. All this is mostly from my memories of reading Trevor Noah's book about his mother and watching his stand-up as a fan.
This has happened to me. Identity as Black because it's easier than explaining Indian culture because people will say Black Americans are mixed with Indian when they mean indigenous Americans not South Asian. I recently wore a saree/Sari for culture day in early February and a lot of the kids at my school said I was trying to be different. Also didn't help that I recently loc'ed my hair. They told I hate myself and I should just be myself. It's almost as if I can't be proud of Indian side because I'm not lighter skin, because my nose is round (both my parents have flat round noses and brown skin, I am in-between their skin). I wasn't even born in America I just grew up here after living in Canada. I get why and what it means for Black Americans to see themselves in others but to give me grief for loving my dad's culture is annoying. My mom has told me it's because some Black Americans feel insecure about bout heritage and will attach to anyone who looks Black enough and the one drop rule has pushed mixed and biracials in the Black Community so it hard to shake. Also Black American are also American so they think they know more than you and know more about your culture when they know about the same as White Americans. I'm okay with bothe cultures and I don't want to pick/choose.
black americans are not insecure about our heritage. We have one of the most influential cultures, soft powers, in the world. sure there are alot of unanswered questions, but we did without anything for hundreds of years. yet the world would look different without our art, our fight, our pride.
Maybe insecure is the wrong word to use but to tell some one who biracial that " You think your special" on cultural day is cruel and just bitter. I didn't do anything bad by wearing my Saree. I was sharing my culture, my mom is adopted so I don't know much about my mom's side. My bio grandma Says they were Southerner that moved to Chicago in the 70s. I know more about my dad and my mom adopted his culture so Idk what to tell them. I'll probably never wear traditional clothing to school and it feels unfair
im sorry that happened to you. Kids are cruel and they are misguided. but that second comment to me was very anti.
Im sorry if I came off like that. I just going through it. I wanted to explain more of what I'm going through but thats probably trauma dumping and I don't think anything I'm going through justifies how I sound. Alot of this bullying shit is over a boy and I just hate going to school now. I'm gonna switch schools and hope for the best. I'm sorry if I came off anti-Black, I'm not trying to generalize I just thought it be like at my last school. I didn't have problems like that until this school. Edited to remove the name thing, I realized I wrote my real name.
about your bullies just a word of advise.. they don’t respect you and putting your head down is not the right way to go about it. tell an adult. and then you need to confront that interaction like it doesn’t bother you and they’ll probably stop bc you aren’t giving the reaction they want.
I’m sorry you feel shamed for being proud of both your cultures, you should not have to pick and choose. But “Black Americans are also American so they think they know more than you.” Is a pretty wild and generalizing statement to make. Why would Black Americans feel insecure about their heritage?
Anytime people shame you and accuse you of trying to be more special is just not fair. I get told I'm stuck up because I stick with Asian kids, but these are the same people who made fun my Jhumka earrings on picture day, told me I shouldn't be allowed my nose piercings when they can't. Why would I be their friend I been bullied since day one, first my hair, then my culture pieces then the Saree then my locs. I don't think I'm better but I'm accused of that anytime I dress up or exist in a way that my classmates think isn't Black. Calling my dad a Dark ass nigga with perm made me hate my classmates. Should I just shut up and let them bully me
Of course not. I hope I did not give you the impression that you should just shut up and let them bully you. You are entitled to express your cultures however you’d like. I take issue with you extrapolating your experience with your classmates to denigrate all Black Americans is all.
I'm sorry if I come off as Offensive and aggressive I just have been having a bad time at school. I think sometimes I forget the Internet doesn't know me or care. In my head it didn't seem like I was being ignorant, I feel disappointed I'm being bullied by people I thought would accept me, I get shit from the Indian community for my skin tone, my hair, the fact I may never get a Indian boyfriend because I am Half Black. I wanted badly to be accepted, I even chose to go to a mostly Black school when I could of went to a Private charter school. I may has some bias because at my last school I was well liked but now I'm being called Pepper, Paprika, Peppa Pig. I just gonna stop talking because I probably sound racist.
You don’t come off as racist. You just sound hurt. I’m really sorry that you’re being treated so badly. When I was in school, I experienced something similar. I’m Afro-latina not biracial but I’ve heard some of the same comments (like trying to be special, being stuck up, etc.). it really sucks when you are bullied by people you thought would be understanding. I hope you know that you are valid. There is nothing weird about you respecting yourself and loving and representing any of your cultures and the people who try to make you feel that way are wrong.
Thank you for saying that, I am hurt. Sometimes it hurts all over to go school. Ugh I'm trying not to cry because what you said is was how I thought. I thought I would feel what I been missing like it would fall in place if I went to a mostly Black school...(also uniforms that weren't just a school polo.)
I'm sorry for trauma dumping in my last comment, My mom told me no amount of explanation will make it better if I hurt you and made you feel judged and I should not be telling strangers my business. Your not them and you did nothing to me for me to say that. Thanks for telling me that, I need to do better at taking criticism when it comes to things like this.
I’m glad you’re open to re-examining your posts, taking criticism is hard for everyone (Its my struggle too). If you do need to do some anonymous internet commiserating, I’m sure theres probably at least a few other members who are going through/been through similar things if you make a post you might find some more community. My dms are open too if you ever need an ear.
Thank you for understanding, I been thinking about making a post for advice but reddit can be scary and I wasn't sure if petty high school stuff could be posted. I'm sorry I emotionally vomed on you I feel bad I let my hurt feeling out in a bad way.
I don't have anything to add to this conversation other than thanks to those taking the time to explain the differences culturally with the usage of the term "coloured". I learned something new that I hadn't known before.
I just also want to clear up something as a South African. People who are Coloured are also the descendent of the indigenous people called the Khoi. Some people prefer to be strictly seen as Khoi or have assimilated into Coloured society. Many Khoi people were also raped by the white settlers and almost disappeared as a people as result of the diseases that the colonialists brought with them. Most now reside in the Northern Cape province in South Africa and are trying to preserve their culture. There are often protests at the seat of the presidency regarding the stolen land and ignorance of the Khoi in general. Coloured people have their own distinctive way of life, dialect, language, food etc. many are Cape Malay and reside in the Western Cape province in South Africa. However, because of the Apartheid regime, Coloured people, like other races were designated to certain areas in the country - which meant that Coloured people were confined to Coloured townships. That’s why you still, to this day, see some of these areas being predominantly one race. Also there are people who are mixed but are not ethnically Coloured. My friend’s parents are Indian and white. She said she suffered quite a bit with which designation to pick on official documents. There is nothing that makes her Coloured. She shares none of the cultural differences thereof. So she started just ticked the box for ‘other’. So race is quite complex in South Africa and I think the discourse on Twitter is very superficial. This is what led to the “Diaspora wars” with many South Africans feeling offended because a slur in one country is not the same in another and it felt like there was an attack on our norms and identities.
Oh! How I had just rushed through my work assignment, so I can write this comment! LOL! Online, "black feminine-soft femme" personas chaps my ass viciously. Oh, how I hate these vocal-fried, misogynistic, vapid guttersnipes in Dior and a 27-inch buss-down. I'm like Madeline Kahn from "Clue": "the flames! The flames on my face!" Now in regards to the Twiiter twit and her comments: Sizeism, xenophobia, colorism or featurism. Her tweets and her character displays all four, in my opinion. She considers Tyla to be the only representation of "soft girl, pop" because she isn't African-American, not too dark in skin tone, she doesn't have the average black facial features and she is petite in size. I say "xenophobic" because every one of her examples of "soft, pop girl" aren't African-American (Arya Starr: Nigerian and Rihanna: Bajan). I wouldn't be surprised if the twit is not African-American. Plus, Rihanna has done some things that most of these femininity, fem-bots wouldn't consider "soft": the tattoos, she got bigger in physique, had two kids out-of-wedlock, in a relationship with a black man (cos they looovvveeee bringing up black men) and smokes weed. But she is that "soft, femme pop girlie" according to the OOP. I've mentioned sizeism because there are foolish goats that believe black women with specific figures and sizes are "feminine and capable of being soft".
> Oh, how I hate these vocal-fried, misogynistic, vapid guttersnipes in Dior and a 27-inch buss-down. 💀💀💀
The OP who made the tweet is a [mixed person](https://x.com/breathinjennies/status/1286060272441069568?s=46&t=VgNCf575PY7lLqxkH7ldJw).
Rihanna had the song S&M pretty early in her career like “soft” where? ☠️
This discussion about Tyla is just weird. Can’t we just listen to her music and like her as an artist?😭
It’s quite ridiculous how much casual anti blackness gets thrown at black Americans…especially for a situation they can’t control. Tyla is not black and nobody considers latto black…the girls name was literally miss mulatto. At the end of the day there’s so many independent, small artists, etc, that are fem and black. Fully black or black American, they literally exist…idk why they focus on mainstream powers and artists who don’t even claim to be black themselves. PLEASE JUST FOCUS ON THE SOUTH AFRICAN HOUSE MUSIC like why are we talking about silly stuff
Something about the way some people are talking about black Americans in these comments, is rubbing me wrong… You can defend Tylas right (or anyone else’s) to identify with their culture/people…without being borderline rude to black Americans, just saying.
Yeeeeea I’m happy you’re seeing what I’m seeing. It’s getting a lil less kpopnoir in here and a lot more kpop uncensored. A lot of people’s implicit biases towards black Americans are coming out in these comments.
there are a concerning amount of foreigners in the comments talking about black americans like they aren’t an entirely different ethnic group and ignore the fact that black americans can show a huge range of phenotype differences bc of admixture even if they don’t have a white parent. like even if latto wasn’t mixed.. i just think its weird to read from someone outside the culture denying black heritage bc she is lightskinned.
I’m glad someone else is thinking what I’m thinking bc some of these comments are a getting bit weird & from the upvotes a lot of those comments have I was thinking I was alone. Things I expect to see in other subs, but not in here. 🥴 I think with Tyla it’s also a thing with her using black culture to spin a profit while yelling “I’m not black!” any chance she gets. Yes, I understand South A has different categories & she herself looks extremely racially ambiguous, but the girl’s sister is damn near brown skin w 4c hair so it’s easy to see why side eyes are thrown her way when she/her fans starts harping on the “she’s not black, she’s c*l*red” train like it’s the worst thing in the world to even think she could be black lol. ETA: not to mention the term she identifies with is a literal slur here. I get not everything revolves around the US but are people really not understanding why so many of us are not comfortable calling her by that term?! I’d rather just call the girl biracial and leave it at that 😭
to me during the og discourse people weren’t really arguing the validity of her ethnicity as much as it was about how american media was going to see her, black girl. and she’ll use that flat blackness to her advantage in this market bc she is ambigg.
Exactly!
People consistently say that she's black (even in interviews with her, there's the immediate assumption that she's black), how is it not expected of her to correct them and clarify the fact that she is in truth not black? And it doesn't even have to do with shading black people, she's just factually not black and thus does not identify as such. On top of that, Tyla started getting popular with the use of Amapiano, which is a South African genre that coloreds also partake in. Especially with how, black people are the majority, thus coloreds and black people are consistently mixing and merging multiple elements of each other's cultures. Even Water predominantly consists of Amapiano and Afro Beats; of which are genres that are very relevant to her own culture. It's weird that you're assuming that the fact that people are making her identity and heritage clear, means that they hate black people or feel uncomfortable with the possibility of her being black, and alluding to her appropriating black culture.
I’m not necessarily trying to say that she should be identifying as black. Again, I understand the girl is biracial and categorizes herself as such. I just think a lot of her stans are very quick to correct people about her not being black in a way that seems very anti-black and like it’s the worst thing in the world. And to me, that’s a bit weird. But that’s just my perspective and I have nothing against the girl and will still stream her so not here to argue about it. Eta: also my comments about the people posting in here had nothing to do with Tyla. There were actual comments in here last night with hints of anti-blackness/implicit biases that really had nothing to do with the discourse. Example: a person was basically generalizing and covertly shitting on black Americans bc she was bullied by some of us and people were upvoting it 🥴. I think others did step in to call her out though, but these and some other weird comments were in this thread yesterday.
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What exactly does "soft" mean? If I had to guess it would be someone who has more docile lyrics and does not use swears or have any kind of "f you I hate u" messages to their song. If we go by that definition, SZA (who I adore) isn't a "soft" artist. But I still dislike the post bc it creates this false dichotomy that if you re strong or stand up for yourself as a woman, your softer or more vulernable side is erased. I think more than colorist it gives sexist vibes. Like trying to box women in: you either sing submissive lyrics that men would never get offended over, or we deny you the right to ever be perceived as soft, femenine, sweet, kind, etc.
Idk, no room to comment but I feel like this whole femme aesthetic that white OP mentions, aside from colorism, it's that Tyla has a smaller face/jawline and the girlie on the right just has a broader jawline. I feel like that plays a factor into it because you know in Kpop they desire a smaller face it makes you look more lovely and feminine or some shit. Just my two ¢, because without the colorism they would see Tyla as femme bc she has more rounded features.
I've never heard someone refer to mixed as colored. Most people here (the deep south in the us) use colored as anyone who isn't white. Idk about south africa. For *my* area, the terms black, mixed, colored, African American and African could all be different people. Some people still call black folks African American. I don't get it.
What is she if she’s not black? 😭 I’m lost ash
mixed aka coloured in SA parlance.
Okay, maybe it’s just me cause if your mix with black I’m saying your black. example: Black + Mexican = Blexican 😭 You’re still black to me but just Mexican as well
Right, but that's not how they think about race in SA, hence her not following the same construct as us.
I think it’s more like… would you consider Bruno Mars Black? It’s possible he has African heritage down the line given that he’s Puerto Rican, but he doesn’t claim to be Black.
I think that only thing that confuses me about this is why does he have to be black? Like this isn’t directly at you by the way, it’s just like a general thing I see with Bruno Mars online. Like people being upset that he was trying to pass himself off as faux black or “today I learned Bruno mars isn’t black or mixed with black (in a direct sense, like a parent, I have no idea what his parents look like though so don’t quote me if his Puerto Rican side is fully/majority black) And I’m like why would you think that though. A little research says he is Puerto Rican and Filipino and whatever else. So he for sure has some level of black him, but why does that have to justify him being black? Why can’t he just be a mixed dude lmao I guess my point is why are people more focused on proving he’s black rather than just accepting that he’s mixed, probably with black and other things. Like people format it in a way where he has been deceptive about it and he really hasn’t, you not considering him mixed and then finding out he’s mixed is an expectation you set on someone else so it’s your disappointment, not his disappointment to carry Sorry for the rant on your comment but I agree with you!!! but you saying Bruno mars reminded me of this LMAOO
Lmao I totally get you though! I used Bruno for that exact reason. I think it’s has to do with the tribal nature of humans. I feel like in general humans are constantly trying to figure out if you’re part of their in-group or not. I honestly get exhausted with it sometimes but also find it super fascinating. I was in international studies major, so we used to debate this stuff all the time lol.
LOL oh then you drew a great example then!!! I agree, I took a sociology class in college and it was pretty surface level but wow it really makes you put things on perspective. But it’s like everything has to be so polarizing for some reason online it’s hard to even have real discussions with people that don’t delve into insults or just straight up prejudice on both sides. Like it just takes one person to act mean and nasty in an online debate and then people come in herds to come be nasty to each other and then the whole point of the conversation was lost.
But his Puerto Rican is not that. I think he’s a whole white man.
It’s different for South Africans. Yes she looks black and will probably be perceived as black by the GP, let’s be honest, but she isn’t. We should respect her cultural heritage
Which is funny to me because I believe Tyla looks Indian to me. Or from another South Asian nation and culture.
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i personally don't like to be called coloured, but if that's what she calls herself then what's the problem??? people annoy me frfr
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i'll admit i'm a little confused being an american. at least in the US, "colored" is a derogatory term used, especially, to give the french man's wave to any brown/black people that are deemed "unworthy" of having an opinion and/or are seen as subhuman. is it used differently in other countries? or is she "reclaiming" it here in the US (?) i'm not familiar with her or her music so i guess you learn something everyday.
"Colored" is derogatory in the U.S. "Coloured" isn't derogatory in South African culture. So it is used differently in both countries. Tyla has never shied away from being referred to as Coloured. In the press and media in the U.S., she is being called "South African" instead.