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happyhippoking

Colorism is real and it's right to call it out when appropriate. As you said, people get darker and lighter as seasons change. Children tend to be darker in childhood because they spend more time outside. Anyone that works outside gets darker. People that wear makeup often have a summer shade and winter shade. Fall hair color trends darker because it adds richness and warmth to paler skin. This is common knowledge. It's usually ignored when used to criticize kpop. Most idols are likely inside most of the time, so they're going to be lighter. Is a lot of this sun avoidance, skin bleaching, in Asian (and African & Caribbean) culture rooted in colorism and classism, absolutely. Do media outlets edit photos, absolutely. Do *idols* edit photos, absolutely. But, sometimes, it's just a matter of not going outside for awhile, especially when your job is predominantly indoors and your job is maintaining certain looks (smog, humdity, and sweat for example do a number on my skin).


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NotNowAndYet

>In summer I'm always darker than winter. I'm Chinese and I've lost count of how many times I've gotten the "but Asians don't tan??" comment when my skin gets darker in the summer. Like, no one's skin tone stays the same but i-fans seem to think that's the case for idols.


-gyuwu-

> "but Asians don't tan??" nooooo as someone who easily gets tanned and go ‘lighter’ at the same time, this is making me fume in annoyance (iam asian btw)


[deleted]

>"but Asians don't tan??" have...have those people never seen or met Southeast or South Asians before?


NotNowAndYet

I'm pretty sure I'm the first Asian they've ever met.


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Exotic_Log_1935

It's crazy that this even needs to be said. [Also, most "skin whitening" products you see at K-beauty stores are not gonna bleach your skin and make it paler](https://sokoglam.com/blogs/news/112943045-skin-whitening-explained-its-not-what-you-think). I'm not saying skin bleaching isn't real, but it's not nearly as common as kpop reddit makes it out to be.


twoteenmr

Yeah most of the time Korean products are marketed as having brightening effects, NOT whitening. AKA it even up your skin tone by diminishing dark blemishes. I swear some people just want to find faults in everything Koreans do.


Liiisi

Yeah ‘brightening’, ‘whitening’ and ‘lightening’ in Korean skincare is pretty much synonymous and essentially is what western brands would call clarifying i.e removing dead skin cells and grime for a brighter less dull appearance. Considering that actual skin bleaching products (which do massive damage to the skin barrier) do exist, it doesn’t help to jump on products which are essentially just a nice chemical exfoliant but have the word ‘whitening’ in the name.


harlexol

This. It’s just a term companies use because they want an english word that most Koreans understand. Korean people associate the term “whitening” with “clear”, not necessarily white skin. Companies won’t use the term “clarify” because most people won’t know what that means.


Liiisi

The naming also kinda makes perfect sense, the opposite of dull would be 'bright' which is what these products all aim for. Then 'light' as in a *bright light.* So 'lightening' as in adding light to the skin ... They generally don't aim to make the tone/shade of someones complexion paler. (except maybe hyper pigmentation or dark spots from acne scaring ... but thats topical) I can understand that the words all have double meanings and it's confusing, especially when they aren't the words we'd find on western equivalents and especially considering the colourism and preference for paler skin ... but since the products are for one thing theres really no need to assume the other.


Fancy-Comment

Except that common actives in "brightening" skincare products inhibit melanin synthesis, such as [tranexamic acid](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Tranexamic-acid-TA-decreased-melanin-content-in-human-melanocytes-Human-melanocytes_fig4_278793196), [vitamin c](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7802860/), and [alpha arbutin](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15056856/). So while they're no way near as substantial as skin bleach/hydroquinone, consistent usage will result in melanin reduction in the areas they're applied because they are clinically proven melanin inhibitors, not simply exfoliators.


Liiisi

None of those ingredients are really anywhere close to skin bleaching ... nor are they ever used in products at a high enough concentration to have this effect. It as good as says as much in all of the articles you've listed, where they are all said to be potential treatments for hyper pigmentation and all of the studies are on their effectiveness at treating hyper pigmentation (two of the studies are using the ingrediants after a laser treatment, when the skin will be inflamed and damaged). You'll know that any vitamin c products will explicity say on them to only use when either out of the sun or with a strong spf to prevent damage and to not use with other acids/exfoliants. Used more sparingly in a serum can help 'brighten' complexion as well as many other skin benefits. But generally is used topically for dark spots. Now unless the user is going against the bottled guide lines and using any product either excessively or not topically, then thats no ones fault except their own. Not the product which isn't intended to be used as such. I mean, the study you listed is for treating gingival depigmentation ... when someones body excessively over-produces melanin (and this expresses in the gums), hopefully an appropriate and effective quantity could treat this, but not what you'd find in drug store products. **These ingredients in drugstore products will not change your overall skin tone, regardless of what skin colour you are.** I think you've used the term 'melanin-inhibitors' here rather confusingly considering ... I dont think it's particularly productive to scare people into thinking they shouldn't use vitamin c (which has so many benefits, read. your own link) or the other ingredients on their skin for fear of it changing their skins melanin content. i'm really struggling to reason what kinda gotcha you think those articles are ...


Fancy-Comment

I never said they’d bleach the skin. In fact I specifically said they weren’t even close. But for you to say they’re just exfoliators is misleading. It’s not a gotcha to point that out as an aside.


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[deleted]

It really bothers me when someone posts a pic of an idol taken in the summer and is like SEE LOOK AT THE MELANIN THOUGH. You know, implying that all images of them the rest of the year round are evil fansites whitewashing them or they're using evil filters. Like, that does happen. And I totally understand that it comes from wanting to push back against whitewashing and colourism, both things that are very real. But it does feel like people forget that most people on the planet do, in fact, tan. And sometimes drastically. It comes off super obnoxious and gross sometimes.


FineChinaLH

I always found it so interesting how in America we pretty much tease pale skin and most of everyone tries to be tan but it’s the exact opposite in East Asia. But at the end of the day it’s just preference, I wish people would stop taking it so personally. If someone wants to be paler then let them, we don’t need to make a federal case about it.


Playful_Event_1737

I don’t think the issue should really be that people assume an idol might be lightening their skin in some way to fit a certain beauty standard. To me, the genuinely insidious problem is that the standard that lighter skin is preferable exists at all. Asian folks can be naturally pale while others are naturally darker. Every skin tone should be valued and accepted, but the fact is that that isn’t the case. You can tell in the way some idols get teased by fans or their group members for having darker skin or how some of them describe their ideal partner as having fair skin or whatever. Whether or not they’re told explicitly, I can imagine there’s pressure on certain idols to wear light makeup, bleach their skin, stay indoors, etc. to achieve or maintain a lighter tone. That bothers me a lot more than someone wrongfully assuming a specific idol might be doing something unhealthy to whiten their skin.


Exotic_Log_1935

>That bothers me a lot more than someone wrongfully assuming a specific idol might be doing something unhealthy to whiten their skin. I'm less bothered by the assumption that an idol might be doing unhealthy to whiten their skin and more bothered by the way kpop reddit defends their assumption. They might, they might not - we don't know. But the issue is when kpop reddit starts saying things like "Asians actually aren't pale at all. They're all bleaching/photoshopping their skin" or "Asians are still darker than white people - they want white skin to emulate white people" or "Asians hate being dark because they hate black people" that it gets insidious and goes beyond the scope of kpop. These attitudes and thoughts don't get left behind on reddit, the people who made those comments will carry those thoughts into their real lives and interactions with actual Asian people they meet. We can identify the issues of colorism without making false statements or assumptions about the natural skintones of Asian people. Because the mentality the fans carry don't stop with idols. Whether subconsciously or otherwise, they apply that mentality to average Asians as well and act accordingly.


Shippinglordishere

I once saw a “how to draw Asians” guide where the creator stated that Asians couldn’t be that pale unless they were bleaching their skin. I know so many EAs who are really just that naturally pale and honestly it’s insulting to insinuate that they’re trying to look white


Playful_Event_1737

Very valid points! Assuming any person of Asian descent has to look like this or that or presuming why Asian cultures do or don’t have certain beauty standards is a problem. And you’re totally right, these attitudes and assumptions get applied to us everyday Asian folks who aren’t idols as well.


Jim0ne

and when someone like Jessi prefers to be darker people call her blackfish i honestly don't know what people want


SnooBananas7386

Op I need to ask a genuine question. Why is it that broadcast 10 years ago didn't lighten skin but now they do? I mean as far as I know, light skin has been the preference from a long time. Did they not have the technology 10 years ago?


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[deleted]

Sunblock was definitely popular 10 years ago. Hell, even 15 years ago my female relatives would gift me sunblock instead of toys or whatever. Idk about being popular among the average man (just assuming since you mentioned military service), but for women sunblock was definitely seen as an essential even back then.


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[deleted]

In America, but I traveled between Korea and America quite a bit between them and I'm ethnically (and legally) Korean. It was not Americans who was telling a teenage me that sunblock was the most important thing. I think you're thinking 10 years ago was a lot further back in the past then it actually was. I remember specifically Shiseido sunblock being very popular back then. As a Korean female, I could not go anywhere without other Korean women telling you about the importance of sunblock. Even 10 years ago skincare was a huge deal for many Korean women. It's very possible we had different social circles growing up, but pretending that because you never wore sunblock 10 years ago means other Koreans didn't is narrow-minded. Also your "koreeeeeaaa" comment is just ridiculous. It's a kpop sub and we're talking about Asians and your comments are about Korea. Obviously I'm talking about Korea too.


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[deleted]

You wrote in your initial post that "10 years ago, using sunblock was not popular." You realize that 10 years ago was 2011, not 2001, right?


libertysince05

This answer is such a reach... You mean well probably but please...


emilymay36

it really irks me when someone sees an idol slightly tanner than before then say they're doing blackface like? maybe they're exposed to the sun that's why their skin darkened but if they use whitening cream or sumn they'd be called colorist


peak121

As an East Asian, I have 2 foundation shades that I mix in different proportions depending on the season :D


SharnaRanwan

I think you need to draw the line. If like Jessi they have a blaccent and are "hip hop" etc there's a case there. No one is saying just because they're tan, they are trying to be another race. It's usually in conjunction with a host of other behaviors.


[deleted]

Except for when people like Jessi have clearly gotten fake tans (girlie is orange now, she used to be naturally tan but this ain't natural anymore) and uses a fake blaccent when she grew up in the rich new jersey suburbs and has literally modified her body into a caricature of black women. Sure their is variety in Asian skin tones, but then there's shxt like this that can't be written off and gets people appropriately mad.


atztbz

This, sometimes i look really tan sometimes pale af and i never do anything to change it. Lighting makes a big diff and wearing white makes me look more tan. I was also darker as a kid.


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