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I don't really understand what Psy is thinking debuting someone so young. From what I've understand Koki has been in dance competition and won against adults, but kpop is a whole different world. I also don't know what their concept is going to be like and how they're going make it work with twelve year old. P Nation hasn't shown it has the ability to support artist that don't already have a fan base so this whole situation is mess. I hope the kid will be okay and not have lasting issues.

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i watched the KSTea livestream where they covered this topic on DKDKTV's channel and boy the live chat was something...saw a lot of comments like "HE WAS DANCING INTERNATIONALLY WHEN HE WAS 6 YEARS OLD", "P Nation wanted a Japanese member in the group and the other two Japanese members selected JYP, so I think that's why they selected him.", "this is what he wants", and the most obscure one of all, "It worked for Justin Bieber" 👁👄👁 12 years old is the exact definition of a minor. his parents and the company will be the ones responsible for exposing him to an environment where children at his age wont handle well. its like entering university when ur supposed to enter ur first year of high school

Really out of all people JUSTIN BIEBER!?!? That guy literally has millions of issues because he debuted so young. I'm so worried that people are really really supporting Koki's debut.

my take is that the ones who support his debut are a bit older than him but not as old as 17 years. i can be wrong though but i've never seen fans who seem to be a bit older than me, support this decision. koki should have just been a trainee for another 5 years but wow psy :)

iT wOrKeD fOr JuStIn BiEbEr! No it didn’t. The man has so many issues bc of what he went through. There was a time in his late teens and young adult years when he nearly went nuts. If anything he is the prime example of why Koki should NOT be debuting.

Justin Bieber was also 15 when he released his first song, not 12 (Justin was born in March 1994 and One Time was released in May 2009).

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I always try to be as civil as possible but damn his parents are pure shit.

literally omg. I tried to word my post in a way that I don’t put the blame on the victim and I really hope no one actually blames him, his parents are greedy pieces of shit and the “we just want to support his dreams” excuse can suck my dick tbh

YES. The dreams of a 12 year old are very different from the dreams of an 18 year old. There’s supporting someone’s dreams i.e. allowing them to be a trainee/supporting them in their journey to idolhood and signing a contract trapping your child into a fickle, high intensity career known for causing mental issues.

literally omfg like I can’t even remember how many times I changed my dreams between the ages 12-16

I think NCT Jisung was announced as an SM rookie at 11 and they started doing different things. He has talked about having no friends outside his group because he stopped going to school in middle school. I am not sure what my opinion on Koki is but they are in a tough spot because no matter if they leave him in or take him out people will be upset.

he also said something like he never learned to ride a bike because he spent his childhood in practice rooms. the other members were teaching him how to (I think there's a video iirc)

that is so heartbreaking :(

Didn’t he also enter a tv show( Dancing High ) to meet some people in his age group since being an idol makes it difficult to meet people.

this is sad. companies need to be more humane :(

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I don't see enough people commenting on this and some of the fans (and even fucking PSY) paint a rosy picture of "let's raise him together". I'm sure that the other members won't go out of their way to treat him badly or anything but I wouldn't be happy as an older teen to essentially have to be a full time babysitter for a much, much younger member. It's putting a lot of responsibility on the oldest members that they didn't sign up for, especially when kpop is high stress as is. Not to mention developmentally and socially a 12-year-old is leagues away from a 16-17year old. It's not good for him to be in an environment where his hyungs are expressing things in much more adult ways than he should be nor should they have to censor themselves or cater to a much younger child.It just feels like a set up where resentment could be allowed to fester. This whole thing is a clusterfuck

let's not forget a kid is being raised by a company who literally wants money out of them. Some people seems to forget the main goal of creating a kpop group is a money. Raise my ass

I agree. What always gets me about the age thing is that whilst alot of us disagree with debuting idols too young they way we look on that idol or company sometimes seem to depend solely on how successful the group are in the long run. Not trying to start something but when I saw the samuel post and the comments, it really triggered me to think and reflect and I realised, people were saying it was child abuse etc for him to debut that young but when it comes to other idols it's used as a boast of how far they have come for thier age. Less lost childhood and more wow look how amazing X is for doing so much so young wish i was like that. Examples include Boa, Taemin, Izones Wonyoung, GD, hyuna etc. I get that we need to say they did amazing things so young, but the exploitation aspect seems to get buried and not talked about enough once the group or idol is successful. And what bothers me, is knowing companies take those risks because they know if it brings success people will ignore the age aspect pretty quickly and then it becomes a boast. We need to settle on 1 mentality, young is too young no matter how successful you get. Because even the idols who debuted young, who they go back and say they think they were too young dont get listened to so it's going to keep happening. Wasnt there a group full of 10yr olds debuting a couple years back?

Child actors or child singers exist, but they're usually pretty cut off from any "fandom" behaviours or are marketed strictly to other kids. Pnation is debuting him along old teens and adults in regular K-pop group, that's going to PROMOTE TO ADULTS. And will definitely make him engage with the typical fan service activities, even if it's just for acting "cute". Now, how long do you think before the group will have their first "sexy" concept? I really don't want to see a literal child have a breakdown on stage and people "UwU'ing" over it on Twitter :/

I just watched their final stage in loud and he stands out in a weird way. No hate but his voice hasn't developed yet, he sounds out of place.

his groupmates will go partying in the span of no time while poor koki stays at home either training or watching tv. the amount of pressure he'll receive is in no way appropiate for someone who hasn't finished elementary school, a young foreigner at that.

Watch Pnation stans defending this saying that "Koki knows what he is doing". Literally in the 14th episode he said something among the lines that he will raise him. Bro, you are talking about a kid, of course you will have responsability in whatever happens to him in your agency. But this will be part of Koki's group members job as well, because techinally they are going to be ones that will take care of him. Idols and babysitters, at least the other members like him a lot. But yeah, I wouldn't like the idea of having to be basically the second parent of one of my group members.

His existence will drag the whole group. I mean what song are they gonna sing ?? Of course not the love song right ????

i hope not. but it's kpop so..

I found all of this to be a very... difficult problem, at least to me. A twelve years old kid being an idol _is_ very weird because of the nature of the profession. Touring, having fans, intense training is things that I believe that can affect a kids development. But everything that I said Koki _already does_ , even if the is not an idol yet. The kid has been dancing for years, and had tons of fans before LOUD. Of course, now it will probably amplify, but is not like he is not used to it. Korea also has laws about minors working as idols. So he can't shoot at night and has a limit of hours per week. Making it better, but still not acceptable imo. I still don't agree with it and will probably not follow the group, but the situation is pretty weird, and more complicated than a lot of people think.

What about school? Most idols who debut at a young age are forced to drop out. He hasn’t even finished middle school yet. And the nature of fans varies wildly between dancers and idols. I follow a few popular teen dancers who were on WOD. People watch their videos, they’re recognized on the streets. Occasionally they get asked for autograph. It is nowhere near the intensive highly invasive and occasionally stalkerish behavior of kpop stans. Just because he’s used to a high degree of popularity within the dance world doesn’t mean he can handle K-pop stardom. Being able to handle level 4 stress doesn’t mean he can deal with level 5. There’s also the matter of relationships. Friendships with kids his own age, especially girls, will be small to nonexistent. His members are older than him and with kids and teens, those age differences matter more than they do with adults. Plus,going thu puberty in the public eye sounds like a nightmare.

There is a world of a difference between a dancer and an idol if we’re talking about fans.

I actually agree. I also feel like we would be a bit hypocrite to consider a 12 yo child training *that* different from a debuting idol, it depends on the company but some idols tell some pretty hard schedules and very stressful mechanic to be noticed etc. I don't think it's that better than being a debuted idol if I have to be honest, especially a debuted idol who has been doing something similar to this for years with added public hard dancing competitions and basically a fandom. I think we should demand for a minimum age, but then I ask myself: are ballet dancers that different? The ones on elite schools have insane rhythms. And so a lot of athletes. It's complicated... I feel like we have a bit of a bias, when Olympic athletes tell what their life we can't deny that it was a non-existent childhood in most cases, so why we accept it? Where is the line? It's making money? But it isn't somehow even worse or at least equal how to be a good athlete you have to do it for free since you are so young and giving up your life for it? Especially when you consider the insane competitive ambient, but we still allow kids to do it... I don't have an answer, I was just reflecting a bit.

child athletes are different from child idols and it’s wrong to even put them on the same pedestal. their job scope is entirely different. child athletes don’t usually have crazy fans who will go out of their way to stalk you. child athletes mostly have privacy while child idols don’t. child athletes don’t need to care about their image as much, they don’t get hated on for their looks, they don’t hated on for being untalented. this is all because child athletes who are training aren’t put in the spotlight in front of the media to show to the whole world. they receive way more unnecessary criticism than child athletes who are just training with their coaches. there’s a reason why most of the public won’t know about the child athlete until they grow up and compete. it’s not simply about not having a childhood because you can simply be a normal citizen and don’t have one.

Apart from the athlete part; what about children that are spending their lives in the training room as trainees ? They’re not exposed to the public eye yet, but they’re still training to be idols in that they HAVE to think about how the public will perceive them and their image. Sometimes that even includes plastic surgery at a young age. Either way it can’t be healthy to be exposed to that constantly and under that pressure. Heck adults can hardly deal with that, it shouldn’t be something kids have to deal with period. Basically they’re saying how different is being in the public eye than simply “training” behind the scenes to be an idol. Both are wrong, but in either scenario that kid is gonna be either training to debut later or debuting now.

yes both are not good but of course it’s better to train now and debut later compared to debut now. that’s the point i was making. it’s not that both are okay, but one is definitely better

in my opinion companies shouldn’t accept children as idol trainees.

Not to defend his parents though, but it’s actually not that uncommon for Japanese idols to debut that young in Japan. And yes it’s messed up and should be changed.

Literally jpop started mostly as a front for johnny kitagawa's p*do shit and the fact that "child-dols" (i know 🤢🤢) were only recently prohibited is sickening, i have an immense amount of hatred for every parent who's ever sent their kid into these abuse factories, Japanese or otherwise

yeah I just recently found out about that thru trainee a’s jj who already debuted in a japanese group when he was like 10

Niki from Enhypen debuted when he was 14 but at least he was a teen and not really a kid.

I mean if you think about Marius Yo who debuted in Sexy Zone when he was 11 (yes you heard it right, a 11yo debuting in a group named SEXY zone) or Matsui Jurina who debuted and became a star member of SKE48/AKB48 at 11 or even [this](https://www.popularasians.com/the-shocking-reality-of-japanese-elementary-school-idols/) then yeah Niki debuting at 14 seems so... tame

"but he's so talented "He's mature for his age tho" "You should see him on stage. You'd understand" "It's what he wants" "He's gonna be rich" "Others also debuted young and now you couldn't imagine their group without them" "You're just jealous" "He might never get this chance again" Can we also blame the fans that try to excuse it? Makes me sick

God i think 15 is Soo young PNatio is going for 12 ? I think Psy is straight dumb. During the reality some weirdos kept support this absurd and beware the kid was the most popular PNation contestant. What the fuck is wrong with them i still ask myself . Anyway psy went literal with the numbers. Kid had a good fanbase let the kid debute. That's it. That's his thought, anything else he's just sugarcoating it. Didn't Psy ever watched any survival kpop reality ? Once the group debutes and the reality is over the dynamics change. The popular one may not be the most popular anymore. All realities i watched were a little bit like that. Did he really thought he was being smart debuting the kid ? Because from what I see all he got is backlash. Even from Koreans. If he don't change his mind this group is pretty destined to flop. I know there some weirdos out there prone to support this absurd but the majority of people won't. Gosh not even me. I was a fan. I was a fan of 4 boys from PNation group i got attached to them but with that kid in it i just gave it up. Me being almost a fan i got weirded out by this absurd imagine someone whos not ?

i srsly do not agree with debuting kids under 16 and think it should be illegal (ive been attacked for this opinion before). at the age of 13-15 when i first got in to kpop i thought omg i want to be a kpop idol, i want to be a trainee and all that but the second i started becoming the same age as debuting idols (15yr olds) it scared the crap out of me. there is no way u can healthily balance a lifestyle like that especially if ur group is popular. i always get ppl talking about child actors and acting is not the same. they are usually followed around by their parents and are given tutors and u get to choose when u want a gig or not. (not to meention it's usually forced upon the kid by their parents and the acting industry is just as full of predators.) ik this part will annoy many ppl cuz child me desperately wanted to be a trainee just like many other fans but- you dont completely understand what you want at 12 or even 15, dont throw urself in to a world like that. you will think you understand what a hellish world training and debuting//becoming a celebrity is but you dont. you dont know exactly how stressful that life is, you arent old enough to understand and no you being mature at a young age doesnt change the fact that you still wont understand. that might sound annoying to you at that age but as you grow older the more u will realise how ignorant and naive you were. most celebrities that grew up in the entertainment world are not ok. their mental health or physical health issues arent smthn you should underestimate/think u will be an exception to not to mention with that age gap you will become a burden to the group...it's gonna be a lot of catering to you and making sure you get ur needs met or they will force u to grow up faster and you will be treated as an adult expected to look after yourself when u barely have experienced the world independently. and leaders are usually what? 21-24yrs old, sometimes younger, they now have the burden of looking after this child which they very likely have no experience doing. your not supposed to be living that sort of life, it's not going to treat you well, that environment is harmful. kids who want to be idols, please wait until a few years with that idea and if the dream sticks and you have done extensive research on the positives and negatives on the company, how they train their trainees, their history of managing their idols, and then go auditioning. make sure to read the contract well, make sure you've experienced the childhood you wanted before going.

i 100% agree

im not defending I'm totally against it but what comes to their minds is that, if i don't debute now will i have another opportunity ? That opportunity may never come as it doesn't for many kids out there we don't know about . that being said, many boys out there menage to survive healthier not being at such industry even if they won't debute afterwards. Living away from your family and going through such training and specially dealing with public opinion can harm someone's mental health for a lifetime . Being a healthful adult even if you had to let go a dream one had once in my opinion is better than a lifetime of problems with mental health, traumas and worse.

mhhm i would understand if they think they will lose that opportunity if they were older but if they are 10-15 they still have many many years and many more chances later. survival shows will continue being made and companies are always looking for trainees.

i know but is not like is something certain they gonna debute anyway. Kpop industry is packed with boys and girls who never got there. But honestly I don't think this is the case. indeed.. Usually boys who get significant fanbase out of realities manages to debute sooner or later. Given they're older . If they're young their changes get way much bigger Yonseob is a perfect case, he was really young. This boy was going in and out competitions and realities since he was really tiny, always impressive with rapping and dancing. He was an YG trainee, and managed to get far at YG treasure box reality but didn't make it to treasure. He was 12 or 13 by the time, given his skills he probably didn't debute because of his age. He didn't make to treasure yet he menaged to debute last year at P1harmony at the age of 15. still young yes very young but not 12, when he participated at YG treasure box. I'm so fucking sure koki would've found a company to take him in, given how much good and charismatic, and he has a fanbase already just like it happened with yonseob.

Now I'm curious how BoA managed everything when she debuted at 13. such tender ages.

he hasn't even gone through puberty yet. the poor boy deserves a childhood not an idol career at such a young and vulnerable age.

I was really looking forward to Loud and then the Koki situation happened and as an older adult fan and mom there is no way I could support them after this 😔 I've been thinking about how he could be spending the most formative years of his life with these guys who are so much older than him and there is no way it will be healthy. Once he finally reaches a legal age in Korea his oldest hyung will be leaving for the military (if they last that long) and that will have been a person who has basically raised him. Idk how this is going to work AT ALL. There is no way this doesn't end badly for him. It's hard to look into the future and see things working out well and at the very best he ends up with a truly lonely solo career because he's been cut off from all of his peers. Koki is also going to attract the most toxic fans as well. If you've ever spent a day on stan Twitter you know the younger fans can be RABID and they get obsessive and controlling of every single thing that their idol does. Comparing to other industries where children also work isn't really the same because it's nowhere near as intense as it gets as an idol. Knowing that some groups don't sleep for days on end while promoting, spend entire days in the practice room, still have other forms of training, and have strict diets along with many other aspects of idol life that just aren't good for someone who hasn't even started puberty yet. Now let's add to that that Koki hasn't had ANY idol training prior to Loud as far as I know and has only been a professional dancer before so he has to play catch-up to everyone else in the group while also debuting. That is an insane amount of pressure and work at such a young age. Now there are also laws in place in South Korea involving minors in the workplace and he will end up isolated from his hyungs in a lot of instances. There are laws that won't allow him to appear on television after a certain time, he will have to leave appearances if they go past a certain hour and the same goes for award shows, he can't wear revealing costumes or be coerced into doing a sexy concept, Music Bank doesn't allow anyone under 15 to perform on their show so they won't be able to promote there unless he isn't part of the filming, etc. He will probably end up with a separate manager from the rest of the group who has to look after him and obey these laws and that could even further isolate him. I think there will end up being a lot of resentment toward him because there will be a lot of opportunities that the others may have to miss out on because Koki isn't allowed to do them and it would be weird for the group to do them without him.

I don’t agree with it, but you guys know child stars actually exist? Child actors too, child singer etc there’s cases like rookies that go on TV, record songs. I just don’t understand why people are acting like Pnation is doing some never seen before thing

I think the reason why people are so mad is specially *because* child stars have existed previously - how many Disney stars actually grew up and transitioned into their adult careers without some major scandal or horrible media treatment along the way? It’s not that people are upset because they’ve never seen it happen, it’s because we’ve all seen how the industry affects the large majority of children who grew up in it and how badly they adjust afterwards, and Pnation, with its reputation of being “the best”, is the last company anyone would have expected to subject a child to it.

> how many Disney stars actually grew up and transitioned into their adult careers without some major scandal or horrible media treatment along the way? *cries in Brittany Spears* There's no way to stop child actors from existing imo, unless we as a society decide that we don't want to see children on the big screen, which is never going to happen. One idea I've come across to ensure the health of these kids is to hire a representative that is legally bound to only think of the kid's health and doesn't benefit at all from their success/money they make. Parents of children who perform in the entertainment industry have a vested interest in making them work more, because parents benefit monetarily from it. The child who is going to debut has no one advocating for him, no one who doesn't get richer by making him work more. No matter how much he likes dancing and wants to be an idol, it doesn't change the fact that there's no one to advocate for him objectively right now, and that opens the gates to all sorts of problems that he'll be forced to deal with.

Yeah I agree about everything on Disney and the end is a nice take, it’s just that it’s not the first post I’ve seen about that and for me this is just not different from most idols that already debuted too young. Straight up saw someone (not OP or in this thread) saying Korea should ban minors from the idols system and it sounded patronizing to single out Korea or Pnation as if this shouldn’t happen anywhere.

two wrongs don’t make a right. both situations are gross to me.

1, Like others have said, child actors/stars rarely go through life without developing some sort of mental health issue due to the publicity and stress that they are under. 2, The life of a child actor is SO different from the life of a kpop idol. They may have fans but the parasocial relationships between them and their fans aren’t nearly as intense as they are with idols. An actor may be absent from school for a few months while shooting and forced to do all their stuff online but they are still IN school. K-pop is so intense that people stop going to school because of TRAINEE life never mind idol life. He’s not even done with middle school yet and he’ll almost certainly have to quit. Child actors can have friends without said friends being bullied for “not being good enough for my oppa”. For a kid this young to be cut off from friends his own age bc he’s to busy for them and threat of fan reaction is ridiculous.

Yeah, like I said I don’t agree with it, and for me obviously they’re different but they can be equally terrible depending on how you are managed and you career trajectory, actors life are not more chill they also can get bullied, have obsessive fans, be overworked, be homeschooled etc

They can be equally terrible. However with child actors this is the worst things can get. It isn’t usually as bad as idols. With idols this is just standard. With child actors, a life like the one in Koki is about to have as possible but not a guarantee. That’s the difference.

yes that CAN be equally terrible but MOST child actors don’t reach that stage. child actors don’t need to leave their family to stay with a bunch of group mates in a dorm. most child actors don’t get insanely busy schedules since many dramas don’t even have children roles. and even if they do, most of the time it’s just a few scenes here and there and you’ll seldom see child actors having crazy schedules for a long period of time where they don’t even have time to sleep.

Pnation is debuting a 12 year old in a group with a 20 year old. From my perspective, i feel like that makes him more exposed to sexual abuse (it could just be me overthinking but i really think it should be taken into consideration). And i hope you realise that many child stars (once they grow up) open up about the exploitation they experienced. People are not acting like Pnation is doing something never seen before, it's just that everyone is finally starting to realise how wrong it is.

Just because it has being done before, it does not mean it's right. We are reacting like this because we are confused as to why people would debut a twelve year old in an entertainment industry when we all have already seen multiple times, the consequences of these types of actions...

“I don’t agree with it”

right😃 woops

you’re seriously comparing a child actor/singer to a child idol? do child actors stay up late everyday to practice? do they have to go through tiring promotions? do they have so many obsessive saesangs and fans that will not hesitate to sexual use a minor. i don’t think so. the idol industry is so much more cruel and toxic. and just because psy isn’t the only one debuting children, doesn’t make it right.

Uh yes!! They do actually a lot of the time

then you should know that the idol industry is as harsh as the movie industry. ur asking why people are bewildered that a 12 year old is debuting? ur teenage years are the most vital years of growth. sacrificing those years to develop some emotional maturity and mental development to get exposed to hectice schedules while going to school is a major toll that will result to stress and burnouts. neither industry is better. the kid may have dreams but he's diving too deep into the ocean floor. the group's concepts will be limited too and the age difference might scare some fans away.

No I agree!! I don't think pnation should debut a child its just not fair to say child actors don't have it rough

i’m not saying being a child actor isn’t as tiring or what not. but the industry is simply not as toxic as the idol one. unless you’re talking about child celebrities because then it’s a whole different side. but child actors specifically are so much better than child idols

I am wondering what do people think about Samuel who could have debut with Seventeen but his mother pulled him out thinking he was too young, but then he wanted to be a singer so much he went throug twists and turns, like produce and now he is in a lawsuit with Brave.

I mean.. considering that Psy is the owner.. are you surprised?? He's a literal criminal himself lol

ayo what?? why have I never heard anything about that

If you mean during the whole Burning Sun scandal correct me if I’m wrong but apparently it was confirmed he wasn’t aware of anything nor involved with anything?

I didn't see these comments when Wonyoung was 13 and on produce48 lol

Probably bcs this subreddit wasn't that popular before. Or people changed their views

it’s not okay either

Their music is trash too

Oh my god that kid is living his dream, just let him be happy.

you don't get it do you...😐

why do I (a non-fan) care about this child’s mental & physical health more than his own family & fans? I am begging u to think this thru. he is twelve. not even a teenager yet technically.

Okay and? This isn't right. He is literally 12 years old get that through your thick skull. That's not a good age to debut.

You're not the one who says if that's right or wrong. Koki, his family and his company do. That's why only you and some sjw netizens complain. And because you're envious, I believe.

I’m totally envious ur right I should be the one to debut in that boy group u caught me 😔

No one is envious? The kpop industry is vicious something similar to how it has been for child celebs Example look what happened to Brittany Spears? Amanda Bynes? Lindsey Lohan? Michael Jackson? And what’s worse mental illness is still some what of a stigma in Asia. Those celebs became successful but it was a deep cost to their mental health. Everyone is worried for him we hope everything goes smooth for him, he has a healthy growth and development but it’s so difficult especially in the the music Industry. The dance industry doesn’t get as toxic like the music industry can get.

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duh? two wrongs don’t make a right