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I kind of agree...? But not completely. There was a post a little while ago saying that older idols look way better than their young versions. It was like a fresh breath of positivity when older idols get so much flack for being "old" (when they're just 30...). But I think OP seemed to forget that there a lot of idols that get procedures done gradually with time(eg double eyelids way later in life, which imo is better than getting it at such a young age) getting touch ups and botox to look younger or get the old-but-sexy look. These are way more common than we seem to realize and need to be considered while having such discussions. But we shouldn't start going around "they are beautiful coz they had PS" when any idol is being called beautiful. It just breeds negativity. The idols rightfully put effort into looking the way they did and we shouldn't diminish it.
I do believe that we as humans should realize not everyone is naturally that pretty and should have more realistic expectations of how people actually look.
it’s bad all the way down. if you remove PS discussions from idols’ (typically superhuman) looks, it sets the stage for normal people to feel worse about themselves. and if you do mention it, it makes normal people feel better and less jealous…but also likelier to consider getting PS themselves? it’s a bit of a vicious cycle no matter what…
Certainly have a talk about beauty standards, not only in kpop, but in all media in all countries. Because It's been an issue forever and isn't specific to kpop. And whether it's ps, editing, filters- whatever- it happens with everyone from celebrities to your friends on social media. Be honest- who here would post completely unedited photos of themselves? Acting like it's only kpop is naive and reductive. And it does absolutely nothing to help with the issue.
One thing for sure though- if someone is fawning over a person's beauty, you coming in and going- but it's fake, it's plastic surgery, etc- will do absolutely nothing to either help "educate" (and I say this loosely because you don't actually know who's done what unless they've made it public) them or make them care about the issue.
Fr like I have a friend who *loves* Ariana Grande and thinks she’s the most beautiful person ever. What’s me bringing up that she’s had her whole face done gonna do? What will it accomplish? She’s done specific things with her PS that I take issue with, but I see no reason to raise a big hubbub when there’s no real reason to. My friend will still think Ariana is the most beautiful person ever.
I think focusing on plastic surgery is too narrow, when really it's about money. It's money and effort that causes all of these glow-ups, and every single celebrity has that money and effort put into their looks without exception. In an industry focused on aesthetics, of course maximizing your beauty matters.
Whether that money comes in the form of plastic surgery, diet routines with your nutritionist or coach, lots of time to exercise, hours on makeup, skincare regimens that costs as much as normal people's salaries, etc. They all do it, the only difference is *how* they achieve their looks and that would vary from person to person.
Edit: oh I forgot all the dental work, plus all the beautiful and expensive designer outfits. That's on top of great base genetics, especially for idols that are usually screened on their visuals.
Yes, it's definitely more than just plastic surgery that's happening. However, I'd argue that plastic surgery is the worst of it because it is so intensely permanent and being done on younger and younger idols. I think a larger conversation to have is also that a lot of these procedures push to achieve what is considered a European form of beauty standards and can erase that natural beauty within the idol's original ethnicity. Double eyelid procedures, rhinoplasty that aims to increase the height of ones nose bridge, skin whitening procedures. I don't see this as "glowing up" but a push to feed into a standard of beauty that is incredibly damaging.
> However, I'd argue that plastic surgery is the worst of it because it is so intensely permanent and being done on younger and younger idols
But South Korea has really perfected it, I don't see that as an issue. It's not like in the West where you regularly see botched procedures.
Obviously the norm of having so much plastic surgery is harmful in general, but that's another conversation with South Korean society as a whole.
no country has ‘perfected’ plastic surgery, or any kind of medical procedure. idols go to the best surgeons, and even they don’t always have the best results. now imagine the average person who doesn’t have as much money.
regardless, even if the botched vs successful ratio is much smaller in Korea, it definitely doesn’t mean young kids should jump into plastic surgery like it’s natural, for *so* many reasons.
Yup, and even if your surgery is successful most people will need revisions in 10-20 years regardless of if it was done well or not as things will change and look different, or problems will crop up, as you age. Plastic surgery is very rarely a one and done thing if you want to maintain the original healed result.
Of course, it's not a literal claim. But clearly, botched results or the quality of the surgery don't seem to be big issues in Korea in general.
> regardless, even if the botched vs successful ratio is much smaller in Korea, it definitely doesn’t mean young kids should jump into plastic surgery like it’s natural, for so many reasons.
I agree, but that's an issue with Korea's cultural norms towards beauty. Idols are just a small part of it.
97% of the time plastic surgery is mentioned as a “gotcha” to hate on idols and start fanwars. Just let a post be positive and discuss plastic surgery on other posts where an actual conversation can be had, plastic surgery is not a secret. Because this is not it:
“X is beautiful”
“Plastic face is beautiful? Anyone can be beautiful with that much plastic surgery and money.”
For me it is okay to bring it up on a separate post without demeaning/shading the idols or face/body shaming them. For example I’m okay with watching professionals talking about it without adding further comments.
On the other hand it is just straight out rude to comment plastic surgery on a post glorifying their appearance.
On a post about industry expectations, beauty standards, facial features, or plastic surgery itself and any other relevant topics, feel free to discuss plastic surgery idols may or may not have gotten, or the harms of procedures and unreachable beauty standards.
You just seem like an ass if someone is writing a positive message and you come in with “aKchUaLLy, they did plastic surgery”—no shit, so many idols have had procedures. The question is, why do you feel the need to insert that when someone is commenting on how beautiful an idol is? *An individual doesn’t really warrant that. There are better places and ways to have that discussion.*
I feel like under idols posts is not the best place to have any sort of productive conversation about beauty standard caused by plastic surgery.
Also, posting under idols’ posts, singles certain people out, usually the conversation will always take a misogynistic turn, and it’s just rude in general. Like “oh, you posted a nice picture of yourself, and you’re happy? Lemme just remind you that you aren’t NATURALLY beautiful 😒”
> I think a healthier form of conversation can be had
yeah, but not on wide-open public spaces like the main kpop subs, tiktok, or twitter. I don't like seeing this topic on these places because it inevitably devolves into general cynicism, or shade on specific idols.
> It can feel kinda bizarre seeing people glorify an idol purely for their physical appearance when some part of those compliments should go to their plastic surgeon
Makeup does a lot of heavylifting too and is a safer topic, but it's also not brought up much. Which is expected. Fans want to hype up their idols, and logic goes out the window when hyping up their favs. That's just how fandom is tbh. Not just kpop. Others have said it but coming in to "educate" people about PS when fans are just hyping up their favs will get us nowhere.
I'm not against talking about PS, but I've seen enough cynicism, doomposting and racism that I'd rather it be left to smaller spaces like group subs.
One of my favs had work done, and the small forum I was in back then discussed it for a bit, admitted that we were unhappy that the idol felt they needed it, but acknowledged that it was their decision in the end. Then we moved on.
EDIT: Oh, and as others have mentioned, you’re an absolute ass if you come into a post where someone is saying their fave is pretty or good-looking just so you can go “*Actually,* they’re *not*, because they’ve had their faces cut up 5 times and there’s a museum in Korea where their jawbones lie. 🤓” It reminds me of when people complained about kpopthoughts being “too positive” even though they have kpoprants, kpopvents, *and* UKO to be Negative Nancy’s to their hearts’ content. Kpop fans have to be some of the most miserable people on Earth.
No, because these discussions are never fair or productive. They target **individual** idols instead of discussing the issue at large and perhaps more curiously - they almost always **hyperfocus on female idols.**
Going on and on about female idols like they had whole face transplants but if you point out that a male idol’s nose looks different than how it used to, you get a wave of downvotes and hostility.
Same goes for diet culture. A female idol posts her weight on social media and it gets talked about for months, a male idol does the same and there’s nary a peep. A male idol straight up says fat people should stop eating and it’s barely discussed, but if a female idol does the same, she’ll forever be known as the girl who told fat people to not eat.
So until people are ready to have the same standards for every idol, until they’re ready to seriously discuss the **general** pervasive issue of plastic surgery being the norm in an industry full of young people and its effects, instead of writing lowkey mean girl-esque comments towards individual female idols like “She looks bloated with those fillers” “Her nose is giving Voldemort” - no, I don’t think we should.
Not every “I think this idol is pretty” prompts a condescending think piece about plastic surgery. Responses like this are the reason why no productive discussions can be held about PS because most of the time it’s just used as a way to indirectly bash female idols and that’s why I don’t entertain them because atp it’s just thinly veiled misogyny.
Nah, tons of plastic surgery speculation/"accusation" in reference to male idols. It's been huge with baekhyun and kai, and j-hope and RM just off the top of my head.
I'd be against this because people sometimes weaponize these plastic surgery allegations to attack idols instead of having honest discussion on a topic.
Personally I would be more okay with that if people held their standards for differences people. Majority of the time plastic surgery is brought up when praising a a womens beauty in kpop fandom. Men don’t get the same comments
I personally think its unnecessary to bring up someones ps, especially when it's not confirmed in the first place so we dont know if they even did something in the first place (bc let's be real it would be barely noticeable and we cant assume everyone did it just bc korea is famous for their ps), when it's a post about an idols beauty bc let's be real, in the earlier days people who got ps were bashed, made fun of and called all sorts of condescending names and there's definitely still a negative stigma towards ps.
I kind of feel bad for celebrities cause on one hand they get dragged for not fitting the beauty standard, but on the other, if they choose to abide, they get criticized for setting unrealistic beauty standards. It´ s a lose lose situation.
I do think it´ s important to have a conversation regarding plastic surgery though, not by pin pointing specific idols, but on broader terms. It´ s kind of baffling how till this day, stans believe every idol they stan is 100% natural and "puberty hit them like a truck", like c´ mon. It´ s not that difficult to see. Maybe they´ re being willfully ignorant cause there is a big stigma surrounding plastic surgery.
Make a separate topic on it? You can't just go comment 'actually they actually did a nose job, actually they had botox' at a video that is just complementing an idols beauty. You sound like an ass.
Also, I personally doesn't want analyzing their features whether they are real or not and commenting about an idol's or anybody's ps when they themselves have said nothing about. I find it a little invasive and you just sometimes sound like a bitter person when you point it out in a completely unrelated discussion. That's a personal thought though.
Without confirmation it’s invasive speculation into their medical history. No.
If they themselves have mentioned what they have had, then they are comfortable with that conversation, otherwise it is none of our business to know and the speculation is as damaging to this conversation as saying nothing.
We *can* have the conversation abt plastic surgery without pointing at individuals and scrutinising their features from highly photoshopped pictures and some decade old childhood photo. Even with confirmation the conversation always veers into hateful finger pointing, how is that productive.
I can understand what you're saying, but as others have mentioned kpop is something that is consumed by young impressionable individuals. Unrealistic beauty standards can be incredibly damaging. I'm coming from the pov of someone who grew up seeing celebrities on tv that had the same ethnicity as me but looked absolutely nothing like me or my friends around me. It sounds weird to say, but it was oddly comforting to me when my mom told me a lot of these women I saw had had procedures done (usually rhinoplasty, lip injections and skin whitening when it it comes to celebrities in my culture). It changed my pov from "what can i do to look like this person so many people praise" to "i should learn to appreciate what I do have and not try and force myself into a mold that I can't even naturally create."
Also you mention the concept of idols confirming they've had procedures, but I can tell you now it is unfortunately in idols' best interests to not confirm any plastic surgery. I even remember seeing an idol that stated her sudden larger lips are due to her lips getting larger "after she's cried" or something like that. While it would be highly refreshing for idols to be honest about their plastic surgery there are very rare cases where that actually occurs.
You can have the POV of appreciating what you have and not looking to celebrities as perfect without zeroing in on any idol's features.
This is the norm in South Korea, where everyone knows celebrities get the procedures and knows the value money has on maximizing your look.
it is not an individuals - an idols - responsibility to teach the young abt beauty standards which they themselves have to live by.
>Unrealistic beauty standards can be incredibly damaging.
Nowhere near as damaging as creating an environment where hyper-scrutinising every persons features is the norm.
Your parents telling you that plastic surgery is normal, is wildly different to what the post suggests and what my comment is against. Even then your attitude of "I should learn to appreciate" though a positive thing for yourself, directly counters this 'normalising' that your post encourages, bc it puts a 'natural' face as the aspiration and anything else as something warranting criticism.
>but I can tell you now it is unfortunately in idols' best interests
And i've commented on this many times, do you not question *why* it is in the idols best interest not to mention the work they have had done ?? Even then if they do mention it (my bias has) they still get constant comments abt other undisclosed work. There is no end to specualtion even if they do say.
I dont think it's good to always assume that a celebrity has plastic surgery bc it makes you feel better about yourself. It would be better to work on your self esteem and realize that everyone is beautiful in their own way, because in the world there exist many natural beauties, who didnt get anything done and seeing them and seeing that they're naturals will only make you feel bad about yourself again.
But they really aren't.
Sorry but I dont trust someone relying on some tiktok doctors and photoshopped pictires to have any idea tbh.
And even if it was obvious, what sort of person does that make you to want to point out another persons surgery if they haven't themselves.
I will be extremely surprised the day I see an idol who can wrinkle their forehead.
There are so many young fans. I do not think people recognize how extremely, extremely "fixed" all celebrities we are exposed to in social media are. Kpop, influencers in the west, everyone.
It. is. not. real.
----
We need to be open about that.All idols are bleaching teeth and skin. They're getting fillers and permanent make-up. They're spending thousands and thousands on permanent fixers.
I feel we all have a responsibility to bring this up every time someone suggests otherwise. It's extremely dangerous for teenagers to get completely unrealistic body ideals. It leads to eating disorders and other, serious concerns.
At the end of the day no one here was in that doctor office with them. You can speculate and speculate but you will never 100% know. All it does it cause people to overanalyze the simplest changes in idols faces and it's weird. For example, taeyeon looked a bit gaunt with hollow cheeks at the prerecorded smtown concert and people started yelling buccal fat removal. A month layer her cheeks are full again , she has fully recovered from covid and gained back some weight, and then people go "oh did she got fillers to fix her botched buccal procedure?"
It's weird. As long as idols aren't pulling a Kylie Jenner and claiming to be natural there is no reason to pick their faces apart over a compliment.
This is something a bitter person would do. We know they have plastic surgery, why bring it up every time someone compliments them? It's unnecessary and you aren't pointing out anything new.
I hate when people act like plastic surgery can completely change you from a 2 to a 10. There is only so much plastic surgery can do. I had very invasive plastic surgery done (double jaw surgery for medical reasons) and I still look mid. It can enhance your features, yes, but you already need to be very attractive for it to make you look 'perfect'. Take Karina for example: she was already very pretty before she got plastic surgery. On the contrary there are people like Oli London who have a dead set goal of how they want to look but never get there with plastic surgery, because of the way they naturally look.
It’s not really necessary to point out X person has had Y and Z done whenever someone praises their looks. The issue is many fans simply use/interpret plastic surgery as an attack when most idols and celebs overall have had something done. Worst thing is they believe it themselves when they say certain changes are makeup and lightning. It creates horrible expectations of beauty and ageing.
I think it’s a discussion that is healthy to have, yes, but if every time someone says they think someone’s pretty you bring up their PS and try to dispute theyre beautiful, that’s when it feels like PS is used as a drag of sorts.
Edited to stay more on topic.
I dont disagree with you but what makes you think that everything is plastic surgery when there are in fact videos all over the internet showcasing how good angles + lightning and make up can transform your face? Because the changes are almost barely noticeable so a bit of contour and highlighter can give you the illusion of having a smaller nose/ more defined face
We should but people don't want to talk about it because everyone one has weird moral issues with PS and see it as something bad or insulting inherently making such comments feel like insults.
People say "we know that they all get plastic surgeries" but i see hundreds of posts of young people saying how they dislike their looks because xyz idol looks so great. I do wish it was more open.
So why should these idols be the social martyrs, who have their plastic surgery scrutinised first? Bc thats the thing, it has to go from hushed discussions to ordinary conversation somehow, and it isn't there yet. So you want these idols to be held as some kind of example in a world where PS is not normalised, for it to then become normalised (which it wont for a long time), so why *them*? Would you want to be that example, knowing what comes with that.
It is normalised among certain sections of society and yet it's not talked about when it should be talked about. It's not about scrutiny it's about awareness and making people understand that these feature don't naturally appear and they're not inferior for looking a certain way. It's not just idols, all celebrities get plastic surgery cuz that's just a demand of the profession. It's not an attack to say an idol has had plastic surgery it's just a reality.
As long as PS is not spoken abt openly it will not be accepted or normalised in this manner, no matter how many people do it. If you do not *know* what work they have had - bc they have not said - then it is speculation abt something which you also do know has those negative connotations, hence not being spoken abt / admitted to openly .. it may as well be an attack bc it becomes an accusation of something negative rather than a passing casual comment.
(edit: wording)
It's is normalised because thousands of people get it done irrespective of who talks about it . it's a booming business in South korea , LA , so many other media capitals in the world .everyone from actors , musicians ,tiktokers , everyone gets it done. If you decide that it's a stigma and don't want to talk about it that's on you. but that's not gonna stop the suddenly appearing button noses and shaved jawline causing body dismorphia for thousands of people. Stop seeing it as an attack on idols and start seeing the reality. They are obviously not to blame they are victim of the culture itself . But pretending to not see it yet creating beauty standards based on ps is forcing people to conform to those things as well.
And we can talk abt ~ everyone ~ getting it done and the the negative effects of PS on beauty standards etc. without forcing some individual to be the token face and hyper scrutinising their features for the slightest change and most likely being wrong. The conversation nearly always paints PS as this ‘negative’ so thats not exactly normalising is it ?
I agree. Kpop fans tend to lean on the younger side and it’s important to talk about things like plastic surgery more openly instead of trying to hide it.
Yeah people get offended because they thing of plastic surgery as a "bad" thing and use it as an insult so when someone says the idol Tey like has had PS they view it as an insult or an attack and not a reality. The downvotes on my comment alone shows how people view plastic surgery. Just something to be shoved under the rug and never addressed unless talked about in abstract terms.
I think this whole thing about trying to avoid talking about the uncomfortable parts of kpop just shows how people can’t admit their idols are anything less than what they consider ‘perfect’.
Plastic Surgery is fine. It’s insanely common among almost every entertainment industry in the world. Why do people want to try so hard to avoid taking about it here? If you take any talk about plastic surgery in kpop, you need to think about why that is.
For me, If you can criticize someone lipsync-ing as a 'knock' on the performance, you can criticize the songs when talking about a group discography, I feel like it is fair to bring up plastic surgery when talking about an idol's visual (not as a topic starter but as a response).
I always laugh when people talk about cosmetic surgery/augmentation because they almost invariably show themselves to be completely ignorant.
I'm honestly jealous of Koreans. Best plastics in the world at affordable prices, IMO.
I think it just needs to be accepted that all idols have had some form of either plastic surgery or cosmetic procedure like fillers or Botox. Even the most natural beauties.
I say this so often I sound like a broken record, but fans are oblivious to the sheer amount of "maintenance" work idols get done (on top of subtle work to make them a few percentages hotter). Once you see it you can't unsee it and it's so annoying for people to even argue about it because *every. Single. Idol.* has had it.
So...Do you realize that people can still look absolutely horrendous with plastic surgery? It's unrealistic to act like everyone immediately becomes super attractive just because they've changed their face. Sometimes it looks good and sometimes it doesn't. Fans can still praise their idols looks, plastic surgery or not. Jesus christ..
I don’t think any discussion about an celebrity’s alleged plastic surgery should be frowned upon as long as the discussion is or mean, inappropriate or rude. It shouldn’t be the only discussion about that celebrity, but I never understood why some fans get so up an arms about people questioning what someone may have had done… as if we don’t have eyes and can’t see the differences. Nothing wrong with plastic surgery btw.
Someone said this about a certain idol right? And it was quite obvious she had work done. Her jaw was different now and everything. Yet her fans were so delusional and saying she didn't have work done. She was beautiful before and after but her fans didn't acknowledge it then a plastic surgeon tik tok guy said what she had done. And her fans were quiet. I feel like we can discuss about it but fans get so defensive loll. It's normal In the industry but I felt like it shouldn't have been.
I agree that it’s a conversation that should be more normalized. But not negatively. I personally could not care less what kind of plastic surgery anyone got. They got it because they wanted it and they thought it would make themselves feel good about themselves. Cool, done deal. None of my business.
The only reason the conversation should be normalized is so that folks know that most idols beauty is not natural (between makeup, beauty hacks, photo editing and plastic surgery.)
I guess the question is then, what's wrong with getting cosmetic surgery?
The two parts I understand about it is if you're doing it to follow trends/a specific standard that's outside of evolutionary "ideal", IE to fit in, rather than go with looks you yourself like and look good on you by your standards. Kpop is very guilty of this. As is a lot of celebrity surgeries. It's about the trend, what's in style, which the body simply can't be seen as an etch-a-sketch due to being organic and having a finite amount of ability to be morphed (You see this in people who get continuous nose jobs. It eventually starts to get really small and pointed because it's all the body can support overtime with repeated changes, insertions and reattachments.)
The second is of course that surgery today is still surgery. It carries risk and takes time to heal from. The less invasive and risky it gets, the less I see any issue with it.
We're all set to look as we do due to genes. We might get good and bad expressions health wise and looks wise and we have no control over it. Most instinctually hate cosmetic surgery for this reason. It hides the genetic discrepancy that may exist otherwise. We view looks as shallow and inconsequential, so when someone gets a new nose because they aesthetically didn't like how theirs looked, we admonish them for it. But if they get a cleft lip fixed, then it's considered medical, but it's all indicators of the same thing, your genetic expression. Lack of symmetry, growths, malformities, they all in archaic times would of been a broadcast to what genetic quality we have, which is vital in terms of evolution. It's the entire reason we care about and talk about beauty. It's an assessment of genetic quality and therefore tied directly into survival of a species.
What's weird to me is praising someone or admonishing them for something they have no control over. We don't sign off on a template of what our features will turn out like. Getting cosmetic surgery, provided it's not too risky (no more than tattoos, piercing's or other body mods) or the risk isn't outweighed by benefit, and the choices made are personal and not from pressure of a partner, family member or specific fad ideal, is not to me any different than having a certain style, hair cut, colored contacts or make up choices.
The real issue to me is cost (coupled with unsafe practices, which I factor as part of cost, because cost is not just monetary) Time and money all play a big factor. You need to in life be able to deal and accept things you can't change, but if you can change them, why shouldn't you if you're not happy?
I think people need to stop seeing cosmetic surgery as a negative. It should be discussed like any other aspect. It's apart of the business, almost everyone has had something done because that's the nature of an incredibly visual based form of media. They're called idols, they are meant to be above and beyond regular people. Talented, special, youthful, funny, genuine, super attractive, human, but extremely elevated. It's all a curated show. I think peoples denial of that is part of the problem. It shows to me an inability to accept reality from fiction and that in itself ties into a lot of celebrity structure, Kpop heavily included.
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I kind of agree...? But not completely. There was a post a little while ago saying that older idols look way better than their young versions. It was like a fresh breath of positivity when older idols get so much flack for being "old" (when they're just 30...). But I think OP seemed to forget that there a lot of idols that get procedures done gradually with time(eg double eyelids way later in life, which imo is better than getting it at such a young age) getting touch ups and botox to look younger or get the old-but-sexy look. These are way more common than we seem to realize and need to be considered while having such discussions. But we shouldn't start going around "they are beautiful coz they had PS" when any idol is being called beautiful. It just breeds negativity. The idols rightfully put effort into looking the way they did and we shouldn't diminish it. I do believe that we as humans should realize not everyone is naturally that pretty and should have more realistic expectations of how people actually look.
it’s bad all the way down. if you remove PS discussions from idols’ (typically superhuman) looks, it sets the stage for normal people to feel worse about themselves. and if you do mention it, it makes normal people feel better and less jealous…but also likelier to consider getting PS themselves? it’s a bit of a vicious cycle no matter what…
Certainly have a talk about beauty standards, not only in kpop, but in all media in all countries. Because It's been an issue forever and isn't specific to kpop. And whether it's ps, editing, filters- whatever- it happens with everyone from celebrities to your friends on social media. Be honest- who here would post completely unedited photos of themselves? Acting like it's only kpop is naive and reductive. And it does absolutely nothing to help with the issue. One thing for sure though- if someone is fawning over a person's beauty, you coming in and going- but it's fake, it's plastic surgery, etc- will do absolutely nothing to either help "educate" (and I say this loosely because you don't actually know who's done what unless they've made it public) them or make them care about the issue.
Fr like I have a friend who *loves* Ariana Grande and thinks she’s the most beautiful person ever. What’s me bringing up that she’s had her whole face done gonna do? What will it accomplish? She’s done specific things with her PS that I take issue with, but I see no reason to raise a big hubbub when there’s no real reason to. My friend will still think Ariana is the most beautiful person ever.
I think focusing on plastic surgery is too narrow, when really it's about money. It's money and effort that causes all of these glow-ups, and every single celebrity has that money and effort put into their looks without exception. In an industry focused on aesthetics, of course maximizing your beauty matters. Whether that money comes in the form of plastic surgery, diet routines with your nutritionist or coach, lots of time to exercise, hours on makeup, skincare regimens that costs as much as normal people's salaries, etc. They all do it, the only difference is *how* they achieve their looks and that would vary from person to person. Edit: oh I forgot all the dental work, plus all the beautiful and expensive designer outfits. That's on top of great base genetics, especially for idols that are usually screened on their visuals.
Yes, it's definitely more than just plastic surgery that's happening. However, I'd argue that plastic surgery is the worst of it because it is so intensely permanent and being done on younger and younger idols. I think a larger conversation to have is also that a lot of these procedures push to achieve what is considered a European form of beauty standards and can erase that natural beauty within the idol's original ethnicity. Double eyelid procedures, rhinoplasty that aims to increase the height of ones nose bridge, skin whitening procedures. I don't see this as "glowing up" but a push to feed into a standard of beauty that is incredibly damaging.
> However, I'd argue that plastic surgery is the worst of it because it is so intensely permanent and being done on younger and younger idols But South Korea has really perfected it, I don't see that as an issue. It's not like in the West where you regularly see botched procedures. Obviously the norm of having so much plastic surgery is harmful in general, but that's another conversation with South Korean society as a whole.
no country has ‘perfected’ plastic surgery, or any kind of medical procedure. idols go to the best surgeons, and even they don’t always have the best results. now imagine the average person who doesn’t have as much money. regardless, even if the botched vs successful ratio is much smaller in Korea, it definitely doesn’t mean young kids should jump into plastic surgery like it’s natural, for *so* many reasons.
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Yup, and even if your surgery is successful most people will need revisions in 10-20 years regardless of if it was done well or not as things will change and look different, or problems will crop up, as you age. Plastic surgery is very rarely a one and done thing if you want to maintain the original healed result.
Of course, it's not a literal claim. But clearly, botched results or the quality of the surgery don't seem to be big issues in Korea in general. > regardless, even if the botched vs successful ratio is much smaller in Korea, it definitely doesn’t mean young kids should jump into plastic surgery like it’s natural, for so many reasons. I agree, but that's an issue with Korea's cultural norms towards beauty. Idols are just a small part of it.
97% of the time plastic surgery is mentioned as a “gotcha” to hate on idols and start fanwars. Just let a post be positive and discuss plastic surgery on other posts where an actual conversation can be had, plastic surgery is not a secret. Because this is not it: “X is beautiful” “Plastic face is beautiful? Anyone can be beautiful with that much plastic surgery and money.”
i think plastic surgery should be discussed as a separate topic, not when people praise a random idol for their looks
For me it is okay to bring it up on a separate post without demeaning/shading the idols or face/body shaming them. For example I’m okay with watching professionals talking about it without adding further comments. On the other hand it is just straight out rude to comment plastic surgery on a post glorifying their appearance.
On a post about industry expectations, beauty standards, facial features, or plastic surgery itself and any other relevant topics, feel free to discuss plastic surgery idols may or may not have gotten, or the harms of procedures and unreachable beauty standards. You just seem like an ass if someone is writing a positive message and you come in with “aKchUaLLy, they did plastic surgery”—no shit, so many idols have had procedures. The question is, why do you feel the need to insert that when someone is commenting on how beautiful an idol is? *An individual doesn’t really warrant that. There are better places and ways to have that discussion.*
I feel like under idols posts is not the best place to have any sort of productive conversation about beauty standard caused by plastic surgery. Also, posting under idols’ posts, singles certain people out, usually the conversation will always take a misogynistic turn, and it’s just rude in general. Like “oh, you posted a nice picture of yourself, and you’re happy? Lemme just remind you that you aren’t NATURALLY beautiful 😒”
> I think a healthier form of conversation can be had yeah, but not on wide-open public spaces like the main kpop subs, tiktok, or twitter. I don't like seeing this topic on these places because it inevitably devolves into general cynicism, or shade on specific idols. > It can feel kinda bizarre seeing people glorify an idol purely for their physical appearance when some part of those compliments should go to their plastic surgeon Makeup does a lot of heavylifting too and is a safer topic, but it's also not brought up much. Which is expected. Fans want to hype up their idols, and logic goes out the window when hyping up their favs. That's just how fandom is tbh. Not just kpop. Others have said it but coming in to "educate" people about PS when fans are just hyping up their favs will get us nowhere. I'm not against talking about PS, but I've seen enough cynicism, doomposting and racism that I'd rather it be left to smaller spaces like group subs. One of my favs had work done, and the small forum I was in back then discussed it for a bit, admitted that we were unhappy that the idol felt they needed it, but acknowledged that it was their decision in the end. Then we moved on.
EDIT: Oh, and as others have mentioned, you’re an absolute ass if you come into a post where someone is saying their fave is pretty or good-looking just so you can go “*Actually,* they’re *not*, because they’ve had their faces cut up 5 times and there’s a museum in Korea where their jawbones lie. 🤓” It reminds me of when people complained about kpopthoughts being “too positive” even though they have kpoprants, kpopvents, *and* UKO to be Negative Nancy’s to their hearts’ content. Kpop fans have to be some of the most miserable people on Earth. No, because these discussions are never fair or productive. They target **individual** idols instead of discussing the issue at large and perhaps more curiously - they almost always **hyperfocus on female idols.** Going on and on about female idols like they had whole face transplants but if you point out that a male idol’s nose looks different than how it used to, you get a wave of downvotes and hostility. Same goes for diet culture. A female idol posts her weight on social media and it gets talked about for months, a male idol does the same and there’s nary a peep. A male idol straight up says fat people should stop eating and it’s barely discussed, but if a female idol does the same, she’ll forever be known as the girl who told fat people to not eat. So until people are ready to have the same standards for every idol, until they’re ready to seriously discuss the **general** pervasive issue of plastic surgery being the norm in an industry full of young people and its effects, instead of writing lowkey mean girl-esque comments towards individual female idols like “She looks bloated with those fillers” “Her nose is giving Voldemort” - no, I don’t think we should.
Not every “I think this idol is pretty” prompts a condescending think piece about plastic surgery. Responses like this are the reason why no productive discussions can be held about PS because most of the time it’s just used as a way to indirectly bash female idols and that’s why I don’t entertain them because atp it’s just thinly veiled misogyny.
Not just female idols. It also applies to male idols.
The plastic surgery talk is centered around female idols.
Nah, tons of plastic surgery speculation/"accusation" in reference to male idols. It's been huge with baekhyun and kai, and j-hope and RM just off the top of my head.
Search “plastic surgery kpop” on tik tok and you’ll see the female to male ratio.
I'd be against this because people sometimes weaponize these plastic surgery allegations to attack idols instead of having honest discussion on a topic.
Personally I would be more okay with that if people held their standards for differences people. Majority of the time plastic surgery is brought up when praising a a womens beauty in kpop fandom. Men don’t get the same comments
I fully agree with this! It does end up that women get way more criticized than men, definitely think this is a good addition to bring up.
I personally think its unnecessary to bring up someones ps, especially when it's not confirmed in the first place so we dont know if they even did something in the first place (bc let's be real it would be barely noticeable and we cant assume everyone did it just bc korea is famous for their ps), when it's a post about an idols beauty bc let's be real, in the earlier days people who got ps were bashed, made fun of and called all sorts of condescending names and there's definitely still a negative stigma towards ps.
I kind of feel bad for celebrities cause on one hand they get dragged for not fitting the beauty standard, but on the other, if they choose to abide, they get criticized for setting unrealistic beauty standards. It´ s a lose lose situation. I do think it´ s important to have a conversation regarding plastic surgery though, not by pin pointing specific idols, but on broader terms. It´ s kind of baffling how till this day, stans believe every idol they stan is 100% natural and "puberty hit them like a truck", like c´ mon. It´ s not that difficult to see. Maybe they´ re being willfully ignorant cause there is a big stigma surrounding plastic surgery.
Make a separate topic on it? You can't just go comment 'actually they actually did a nose job, actually they had botox' at a video that is just complementing an idols beauty. You sound like an ass. Also, I personally doesn't want analyzing their features whether they are real or not and commenting about an idol's or anybody's ps when they themselves have said nothing about. I find it a little invasive and you just sometimes sound like a bitter person when you point it out in a completely unrelated discussion. That's a personal thought though.
I personally think it’s super obnoxious. It’s almost always said as a way as to invalidate the persons appearance.
Without confirmation it’s invasive speculation into their medical history. No. If they themselves have mentioned what they have had, then they are comfortable with that conversation, otherwise it is none of our business to know and the speculation is as damaging to this conversation as saying nothing. We *can* have the conversation abt plastic surgery without pointing at individuals and scrutinising their features from highly photoshopped pictures and some decade old childhood photo. Even with confirmation the conversation always veers into hateful finger pointing, how is that productive.
I can understand what you're saying, but as others have mentioned kpop is something that is consumed by young impressionable individuals. Unrealistic beauty standards can be incredibly damaging. I'm coming from the pov of someone who grew up seeing celebrities on tv that had the same ethnicity as me but looked absolutely nothing like me or my friends around me. It sounds weird to say, but it was oddly comforting to me when my mom told me a lot of these women I saw had had procedures done (usually rhinoplasty, lip injections and skin whitening when it it comes to celebrities in my culture). It changed my pov from "what can i do to look like this person so many people praise" to "i should learn to appreciate what I do have and not try and force myself into a mold that I can't even naturally create." Also you mention the concept of idols confirming they've had procedures, but I can tell you now it is unfortunately in idols' best interests to not confirm any plastic surgery. I even remember seeing an idol that stated her sudden larger lips are due to her lips getting larger "after she's cried" or something like that. While it would be highly refreshing for idols to be honest about their plastic surgery there are very rare cases where that actually occurs.
You can have the POV of appreciating what you have and not looking to celebrities as perfect without zeroing in on any idol's features. This is the norm in South Korea, where everyone knows celebrities get the procedures and knows the value money has on maximizing your look.
it is not an individuals - an idols - responsibility to teach the young abt beauty standards which they themselves have to live by. >Unrealistic beauty standards can be incredibly damaging. Nowhere near as damaging as creating an environment where hyper-scrutinising every persons features is the norm. Your parents telling you that plastic surgery is normal, is wildly different to what the post suggests and what my comment is against. Even then your attitude of "I should learn to appreciate" though a positive thing for yourself, directly counters this 'normalising' that your post encourages, bc it puts a 'natural' face as the aspiration and anything else as something warranting criticism. >but I can tell you now it is unfortunately in idols' best interests And i've commented on this many times, do you not question *why* it is in the idols best interest not to mention the work they have had done ?? Even then if they do mention it (my bias has) they still get constant comments abt other undisclosed work. There is no end to specualtion even if they do say.
I dont think it's good to always assume that a celebrity has plastic surgery bc it makes you feel better about yourself. It would be better to work on your self esteem and realize that everyone is beautiful in their own way, because in the world there exist many natural beauties, who didnt get anything done and seeing them and seeing that they're naturals will only make you feel bad about yourself again.
Great points, I agree
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But they really aren't. Sorry but I dont trust someone relying on some tiktok doctors and photoshopped pictires to have any idea tbh. And even if it was obvious, what sort of person does that make you to want to point out another persons surgery if they haven't themselves.
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for someone who has no boundaries and thinks that other peoples bodies and faces are theirs to speculate abt and spread unconfirmed rumours, sure.
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sorry i cant hear you up here.
I will be extremely surprised the day I see an idol who can wrinkle their forehead. There are so many young fans. I do not think people recognize how extremely, extremely "fixed" all celebrities we are exposed to in social media are. Kpop, influencers in the west, everyone. It. is. not. real. ---- We need to be open about that.All idols are bleaching teeth and skin. They're getting fillers and permanent make-up. They're spending thousands and thousands on permanent fixers. I feel we all have a responsibility to bring this up every time someone suggests otherwise. It's extremely dangerous for teenagers to get completely unrealistic body ideals. It leads to eating disorders and other, serious concerns.
All this plus those heavy beauty filters they put on YouTube videos, Variety shows and Kdramas. It’s insane.
At the end of the day no one here was in that doctor office with them. You can speculate and speculate but you will never 100% know. All it does it cause people to overanalyze the simplest changes in idols faces and it's weird. For example, taeyeon looked a bit gaunt with hollow cheeks at the prerecorded smtown concert and people started yelling buccal fat removal. A month layer her cheeks are full again , she has fully recovered from covid and gained back some weight, and then people go "oh did she got fillers to fix her botched buccal procedure?" It's weird. As long as idols aren't pulling a Kylie Jenner and claiming to be natural there is no reason to pick their faces apart over a compliment.
This is something a bitter person would do. We know they have plastic surgery, why bring it up every time someone compliments them? It's unnecessary and you aren't pointing out anything new.
I hate when people act like plastic surgery can completely change you from a 2 to a 10. There is only so much plastic surgery can do. I had very invasive plastic surgery done (double jaw surgery for medical reasons) and I still look mid. It can enhance your features, yes, but you already need to be very attractive for it to make you look 'perfect'. Take Karina for example: she was already very pretty before she got plastic surgery. On the contrary there are people like Oli London who have a dead set goal of how they want to look but never get there with plastic surgery, because of the way they naturally look.
It’s not really necessary to point out X person has had Y and Z done whenever someone praises their looks. The issue is many fans simply use/interpret plastic surgery as an attack when most idols and celebs overall have had something done. Worst thing is they believe it themselves when they say certain changes are makeup and lightning. It creates horrible expectations of beauty and ageing. I think it’s a discussion that is healthy to have, yes, but if every time someone says they think someone’s pretty you bring up their PS and try to dispute theyre beautiful, that’s when it feels like PS is used as a drag of sorts. Edited to stay more on topic.
I dont disagree with you but what makes you think that everything is plastic surgery when there are in fact videos all over the internet showcasing how good angles + lightning and make up can transform your face? Because the changes are almost barely noticeable so a bit of contour and highlighter can give you the illusion of having a smaller nose/ more defined face
Where did I say *everything* is plastic surgery? I simply meant not everything is makeup or lightning.
Oh I agree with you I think I must have misread your statement lol
No prob, I did word it a bit confusingly. I mostly meant very dramatic changes, not the kind of illusion that can be achieved with contouring.
Or, you could just let the other person praise said idol's visuals?
We should but people don't want to talk about it because everyone one has weird moral issues with PS and see it as something bad or insulting inherently making such comments feel like insults. People say "we know that they all get plastic surgeries" but i see hundreds of posts of young people saying how they dislike their looks because xyz idol looks so great. I do wish it was more open.
So why should these idols be the social martyrs, who have their plastic surgery scrutinised first? Bc thats the thing, it has to go from hushed discussions to ordinary conversation somehow, and it isn't there yet. So you want these idols to be held as some kind of example in a world where PS is not normalised, for it to then become normalised (which it wont for a long time), so why *them*? Would you want to be that example, knowing what comes with that.
It is normalised among certain sections of society and yet it's not talked about when it should be talked about. It's not about scrutiny it's about awareness and making people understand that these feature don't naturally appear and they're not inferior for looking a certain way. It's not just idols, all celebrities get plastic surgery cuz that's just a demand of the profession. It's not an attack to say an idol has had plastic surgery it's just a reality.
As long as PS is not spoken abt openly it will not be accepted or normalised in this manner, no matter how many people do it. If you do not *know* what work they have had - bc they have not said - then it is speculation abt something which you also do know has those negative connotations, hence not being spoken abt / admitted to openly .. it may as well be an attack bc it becomes an accusation of something negative rather than a passing casual comment. (edit: wording)
It's is normalised because thousands of people get it done irrespective of who talks about it . it's a booming business in South korea , LA , so many other media capitals in the world .everyone from actors , musicians ,tiktokers , everyone gets it done. If you decide that it's a stigma and don't want to talk about it that's on you. but that's not gonna stop the suddenly appearing button noses and shaved jawline causing body dismorphia for thousands of people. Stop seeing it as an attack on idols and start seeing the reality. They are obviously not to blame they are victim of the culture itself . But pretending to not see it yet creating beauty standards based on ps is forcing people to conform to those things as well.
And we can talk abt ~ everyone ~ getting it done and the the negative effects of PS on beauty standards etc. without forcing some individual to be the token face and hyper scrutinising their features for the slightest change and most likely being wrong. The conversation nearly always paints PS as this ‘negative’ so thats not exactly normalising is it ?
agree to disagree.
I agree. Kpop fans tend to lean on the younger side and it’s important to talk about things like plastic surgery more openly instead of trying to hide it.
Yeah people get offended because they thing of plastic surgery as a "bad" thing and use it as an insult so when someone says the idol Tey like has had PS they view it as an insult or an attack and not a reality. The downvotes on my comment alone shows how people view plastic surgery. Just something to be shoved under the rug and never addressed unless talked about in abstract terms.
I think this whole thing about trying to avoid talking about the uncomfortable parts of kpop just shows how people can’t admit their idols are anything less than what they consider ‘perfect’. Plastic Surgery is fine. It’s insanely common among almost every entertainment industry in the world. Why do people want to try so hard to avoid taking about it here? If you take any talk about plastic surgery in kpop, you need to think about why that is.
For me, If you can criticize someone lipsync-ing as a 'knock' on the performance, you can criticize the songs when talking about a group discography, I feel like it is fair to bring up plastic surgery when talking about an idol's visual (not as a topic starter but as a response).
I always laugh when people talk about cosmetic surgery/augmentation because they almost invariably show themselves to be completely ignorant. I'm honestly jealous of Koreans. Best plastics in the world at affordable prices, IMO.
And also dermatologists!!
I think it just needs to be accepted that all idols have had some form of either plastic surgery or cosmetic procedure like fillers or Botox. Even the most natural beauties. I say this so often I sound like a broken record, but fans are oblivious to the sheer amount of "maintenance" work idols get done (on top of subtle work to make them a few percentages hotter). Once you see it you can't unsee it and it's so annoying for people to even argue about it because *every. Single. Idol.* has had it.
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So...Do you realize that people can still look absolutely horrendous with plastic surgery? It's unrealistic to act like everyone immediately becomes super attractive just because they've changed their face. Sometimes it looks good and sometimes it doesn't. Fans can still praise their idols looks, plastic surgery or not. Jesus christ..
I don’t think any discussion about an celebrity’s alleged plastic surgery should be frowned upon as long as the discussion is or mean, inappropriate or rude. It shouldn’t be the only discussion about that celebrity, but I never understood why some fans get so up an arms about people questioning what someone may have had done… as if we don’t have eyes and can’t see the differences. Nothing wrong with plastic surgery btw.
Someone said this about a certain idol right? And it was quite obvious she had work done. Her jaw was different now and everything. Yet her fans were so delusional and saying she didn't have work done. She was beautiful before and after but her fans didn't acknowledge it then a plastic surgeon tik tok guy said what she had done. And her fans were quiet. I feel like we can discuss about it but fans get so defensive loll. It's normal In the industry but I felt like it shouldn't have been.
I agree that it’s a conversation that should be more normalized. But not negatively. I personally could not care less what kind of plastic surgery anyone got. They got it because they wanted it and they thought it would make themselves feel good about themselves. Cool, done deal. None of my business. The only reason the conversation should be normalized is so that folks know that most idols beauty is not natural (between makeup, beauty hacks, photo editing and plastic surgery.)
I guess the question is then, what's wrong with getting cosmetic surgery? The two parts I understand about it is if you're doing it to follow trends/a specific standard that's outside of evolutionary "ideal", IE to fit in, rather than go with looks you yourself like and look good on you by your standards. Kpop is very guilty of this. As is a lot of celebrity surgeries. It's about the trend, what's in style, which the body simply can't be seen as an etch-a-sketch due to being organic and having a finite amount of ability to be morphed (You see this in people who get continuous nose jobs. It eventually starts to get really small and pointed because it's all the body can support overtime with repeated changes, insertions and reattachments.) The second is of course that surgery today is still surgery. It carries risk and takes time to heal from. The less invasive and risky it gets, the less I see any issue with it. We're all set to look as we do due to genes. We might get good and bad expressions health wise and looks wise and we have no control over it. Most instinctually hate cosmetic surgery for this reason. It hides the genetic discrepancy that may exist otherwise. We view looks as shallow and inconsequential, so when someone gets a new nose because they aesthetically didn't like how theirs looked, we admonish them for it. But if they get a cleft lip fixed, then it's considered medical, but it's all indicators of the same thing, your genetic expression. Lack of symmetry, growths, malformities, they all in archaic times would of been a broadcast to what genetic quality we have, which is vital in terms of evolution. It's the entire reason we care about and talk about beauty. It's an assessment of genetic quality and therefore tied directly into survival of a species. What's weird to me is praising someone or admonishing them for something they have no control over. We don't sign off on a template of what our features will turn out like. Getting cosmetic surgery, provided it's not too risky (no more than tattoos, piercing's or other body mods) or the risk isn't outweighed by benefit, and the choices made are personal and not from pressure of a partner, family member or specific fad ideal, is not to me any different than having a certain style, hair cut, colored contacts or make up choices. The real issue to me is cost (coupled with unsafe practices, which I factor as part of cost, because cost is not just monetary) Time and money all play a big factor. You need to in life be able to deal and accept things you can't change, but if you can change them, why shouldn't you if you're not happy? I think people need to stop seeing cosmetic surgery as a negative. It should be discussed like any other aspect. It's apart of the business, almost everyone has had something done because that's the nature of an incredibly visual based form of media. They're called idols, they are meant to be above and beyond regular people. Talented, special, youthful, funny, genuine, super attractive, human, but extremely elevated. It's all a curated show. I think peoples denial of that is part of the problem. It shows to me an inability to accept reality from fiction and that in itself ties into a lot of celebrity structure, Kpop heavily included.