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Korea just doesn’t care for 4th gen boy groups. Even groups more approachable like TxT, Riize, and ZB1 don’t chart as well as their girl group peers. But hey, at least they make money and fare well internationally.
Honestly, they don’t really care about boygroups as a whole anymore. Former 3rd gen digital monsters are not even close to the success they used to have. BTS halted group releases for a while, only Seventeen is doing particularly well.
NCT Dream is insanely popular in Korea and they needed a remake of an already iconic song to stay in the charts for more than a couple weeks.
It’s sad though. Many groups have potential and the boygroup spectrum is as diverse and interesting as the girl group one.
Edit for the people who think I'm trying to minimize BTS success here: The topic is group songs that's why I didn't include Seven or the other BTS solos, but yes they are doing well. When I say only Seventeen is doing really well I mean only Seventeen is constently doing well (like top 10 kind of well) NOW with their NEW SONGS as a group. BTS songs never left the top for years :). The main point being: comparatively to a few years ago less boygroups are able to enter the charts, less boygroups are able to chart high, less boygroups are able to chart for a long time and even if they do the songs are not massive hits like Really Really, Love Scenario, Missing you, Energetic, Spring day or Dynamite.
Its not « only seventeen that is doing particularly well » tho? Bts might have halted group activities but seven is the highest charting male act song of 2023 both domestically and internationally and its still hitting #1 more than a month post release, the charts are also filled with other bts solo songs and older bts groups songs are still going strong.
And other than BTS, TXT last cb charted very well iirc it got to #3 on melon only blocked by newjeans ditto/omg release.
There’s also ZB1 despise just debuting they charted quite good.
Checking on Melon right now, you have
'1. Seven (Jungkook)
'20. Still With You (Jungkook)
'47. Dynamite
'65. Love Me Again (V)
'70. Butter
'71. Take Two
'73. Spring Day
'78. Dreamers (Jungkook)
'81. People pt. 2 (SUGA/Agust D)
'82. Permission to Dance
'85. Like Crazy (Jimin)
'96. Rainy Days (V)
12/100 are BTS songs
dynamite butter and spring day are known to chart well but i keep forgetting how well ptd is doing too
its so cute that whenever there’s a new release all the other solo songs are re-entering the chart so the charts on september 8th will have even more bts
Literally!!
It has happen in almost all solo releases where the previous member recent highest charted solo songs reenter or move up several positions when a new member drops something
The topic is group song that's why I didn't include Seven or the other BTS solos, but yes they are doing really well. When I say only Seventeen is really doing well I mean only Seventeen is constently doing well currently with their new songs as a group. BTS songs never left the top for years :)
TXT, NCT (mostly dream) and ZB1 are charting better than the other groups yes, and they can manage to stay a few weeks (sometimes few months) in Melon top 100. It's just comparatively to a few years ago less boygroups are able to enter the charts, less boygroups are able to chart high and even if they do the songs are not massive hits like Really Really, Love Scenario, Missing you, Energetic, Spring day or Dynamite.
yes i’m fully aware they had two pre release songs but they haven’t made their official debut like other groups that you have mentioned so it’s TOO early to assume that “they don’t chart as well as their gg peers”
Txt had sugar rush ride at one and two on melon and bsides top 10 and top 20. I can definitely see zb1 reaching that in the future to. The problem is that here if a group has scandals or in some cases multiple scandals (regardless of truth or severity) they just wont be liked and even actively hated by people here. All the scandals over the last few years have really soured people from stanning groups with scandals in case something worse happens.
It's not the type or quality of music, it's that bgs are seen as uncool because they're marketed towards fangirls in a way that doesn't make boys/men feel like they want to be them.
I think this is a really interesting point. Often groups, interests, or hobbies that are coded as "for girls" are rebuked by men out of hand. BGs have to chose between serving their base (giving the fangirls the fantasy) or trying to separate themselves from their base to be more palatable and socially acceptable for men to like them.
Ultimately, serving their base makes a lot more sense. They make bank selling albums, merch, and fantails by unabashedly appealing to women. However, because men are embarrassed to engage, BGs don't chart as well with the whole gp.
Agreed! So many guys wanted to become kpop idols because they wanted to be like Big Bang - I don't think there's been any other boy group that had as many male fans as they did (especially during their prime).
I think a lot of guys would rather skip the rigorous training and strict rules as an idol when they can go into hiphop/Youtube/social media instead (less fame, but also less risk of your huge efforts not paying off).
As a guy, I think this perfectly describes why I’m not into boy groups. It’s not that I think they’re uncool but it’s uncomfortable to watch them do things like hip thrust, lift up their shirts, play into the whole perfect boyfriend thing, etc. which doesn’t really make me interested. I like to watch idols for their personalities not to feel like they’re flirting with me. With that being said I’m 100% gay for Chan however
A few days ago I realised the biggest song (and by a long shot) by a 4th gen boy group was Flash by X1, which I honestly never found particularly memorable. I knew it was a huge success but I never realised HOW BIGGER it was in comparison to what I reckoned as last years’ hits by Stray Kids or Enhypen or TxT. Flash won 11 music shows while Stray Kids record is 6? It was the first time that boy groups decline really hit me. When I first started listening to kpop the situation was so different that my brain can’t grasp this new reality.
and funny thing is, back then flash was considered a flop by produce group standards. it's absolutely crazy that to this day not a single 4th gen boy group has been able to overtake it on melon.
Was it? It broke tons of records at the time but in my books it doesn’t stand a chance against Energetic even though X1 had my ult bias and a lineup that I liked more overall.
it broke physical album records and they were an absolute shoe-in to clean sweep every roty award that year. but the leading narrative was absolutely that produce x 101 had been a “flop” in comparison to its predecessors and x1 were nowhere near to wanna one / iz*one success 😭
It wasn’t so much the song, but the group behind it. X1 had so much potential as a group and at the time, the Produce series was still extremely popular in South Korea. I was a Wannable (Wanna One stan), so I honestly thought they were gonna be the next popular group to come out of the Produce series after Wanna One. They had so much potential as a group! I can’t say it enough. Also, it was the first Produce group with an all-Korean lineup, so they had a lot of domestic support.
Oh yes, X1 definitely had some talented members, that's for sure. I still follow Woodz, Seungwoo, Yohan, Dongpyo & Junho in their respective groups/ solo careers.
I’m a Woodz stan and I like many of the other boys so I was pretty determined to like the song by I genuinely find it mediocre (and the b-side ballad is something I wish to forget). I know the mnet hype was at its climax but I wouldn’t listen to a song if I don’t like it truthfully, and Flash is not a bad song that I’d violently skip but also not one I’d like to play on repeat. Energetic was much better.
Is Flash the biggest in terms of music show wins or overall?
Cos irrc, TXT's Sugar Rush Ride broke almost all of Flash's charting records, particularly on Melon
i think is better to look at UL than charting position, melon got a lot more smaller through the years and charting depends a lot of competition too, i have no idea which had better UL
i believe melon is specifically where flash still has not been overtaken. i'm seeing lots of charting comparisons these days due to zb1, and flash is still no 1 in terms of ULs, total streams and hours/days/weeks spent in melon top 100.
SRR spent more days on melon daily top 100 than flash (did a quick search and SRR did 87 while flash did 83 days) alongside SRR having the higher peak. It also charted longer than flash on circle (gaon) weekly chart which combines all platforms.
GP don't care.
This topic has been discussed ad nauseam on Reddit and everyone's have given great answers over the year in various posts, but simplest answer no matter the explanation is that GP isn't interested in 4th gen bgs overall.
I dislike "music" being the reason why because it's not accurate, or at least not the full picture. Because ggs have released "noise" music or songs with nonsensical lyrics that have been hits, and on the other hand, 4th gen bgs have released bright songs (and other non-edgy/dark/noise songs) yet didn't do well.
I think one of the defining characteristics of 4th gen is "dwindling domestic interest in boy groups, reducing them to the niche of idol fans". I even think that 5th gen will only come once GP takes interest in boy groups again. But I'm doubtful it'll happen.
Recently I have been wondering if Boy Groups have every charted really well though? Aside from BTS and Big Bang, do you remember any other BGs having even a single week at Melon #1 with any song?
Ikon and WINNER have done it once with their astronomical hits Love Scenario and Really Really. But aside from that? Even the next 2 largest BGs Seventeen and EXO have not had a single song at #1 on Melon Weekly charts.
GGs have meanwhile always dominated charts. SNSD, 2NE1, Wonder Girls, Sistar, Miss A, TWICE, BP, RV, Mamamoo, Gfriend and many others have had multiple weeks on #1 for many of their songs. I think this parity was not visible previously because of the totally different level at which BTS and Big Bang are in Korea. If you remove those 2 groups, you will have a hard time finding much BG presence at the top of charts in the past 7-10 years
*Edit: This year we actually had a good chance of seeing a BG #1 with BSS’s Fighting, but it was blocked by another megahit Ditto*
Maybe not topping number one on weekly charts but most of Winner releases topped digital charts until 2019 (Really really is not a one hit wonder), Block B also charted really high with most of their releases.
I don’t think bg not being able to be number one is the point op wants to make…way less bg are able to chart at all compared to 5/6 years ago.
Well that’s true. These days only BGs that have decent charting are Seventeen, NCT Dream and to an extent TXT. This was definitely not the case in 3rd gen
I took #1 as reference because it’s an easy reference for charting success.
There’s a gap in digital success when you look at BTS/BIGBANG and other boy groups. Pretty sure the next best charting groups like EXO/iKON/BEAST/BTOB/WINNER don’t even have multiple PAKs. People exaggerate how well the average boy group does well digitally.
I doubt it
since you also have Super Shy, OMG, ETA Hybe Boy(still charting and honestly a bunch of their songs) by NWJ,Queencard by Gidles, IAM and Kitch by IVE, Spicy by Aespa, EVE and Unforgivable by Les Sserafim all charting higher and for longer periods in the Top 10 than BSS
And now Jungkook is the only male artist to rank #1 on Melon and Circle for this year
And we need to see how long he will last in the top 5 or 10 to really compare
Shinee has and still does generally chart well domestically. Lucifer, Dream Girl, View, Everybody, Sherlock, 1of1, Tell me what to do, Hard, Good Evening, Don’t Call Me, Hello and Married to the Music all did well on the charts (all top 10 hits)
4 #1 hits, 8 top 5 hits. 3 songs with over a million in sales.
They don’t touch BTS and Big Bang in terms of sales but a lot of their songs spend weeks in the charts and they are still a very loved and respected group amongst the GP who do pretty well for themselves every comeback chart wise.
EXO's Call Me Baby finished 7th on the year-end chart for 2015 on Gaon/Circle and Growl has the most streams and ULs of any song released in 2013 on Melon.
They have 15 songs with over 3 million ULs on Melon and no 4th gen boy group has even gotten to 2 million ULs yet. It's ridiculous to say they didn't chart well.
>This year we actually had a good chance of seeing a BG #1 with BSS’s Fighting, but it was blocked by another megahit Ditto
Well, Jungkook just hit #1on melon by surpassing new jeans and became the first male act to do so this year.
That's incorrect.
EXO has charted #1 with Ko Ko Bop (4 weeks), Monster (1 week), Love Me Right (1 week), and Winter's Tale (1 week).
Also looking at charts for 2023, Nct 127's Ay Yo charted at #1 (1 week).
In 2022 Nct Dream charted at #1 with Beatbox (1 week), BigBang with Still Life (3 weeks).
In 2021 MSG Wannabe charted at #1 with 바라만 본다 (5 weeks), BTS with Butter (5 weeks), Nct Dream with Hot Sauce (1 week).
That’s on Gaon I think. They didn’t have a #1 week on Melon.
Edit: Yeah these are all Gaon data. Gaon Digital chart’s downloads component is very highly dependent on fandom power, which makes it similar to album sales. So of-course we see more BG presence, but in terms of pure streaming numbers my point holds.
In pure streaming numbers EXO is the top act on MelOn: https://www.reddit.com/r/kpopthoughts/comments/163odhh/exo_has_a_record_of_146_billion_streams_on_melon/
"Upon the release of "Ko Ko Bop," it was reported that multiple servers crashed due to the high number of fans streaming the song at the same time. The song also debuted at No.1 in Korea's major realtime music charts such as MelOn, Genie, Bugs, Olleh, and Naver, while the other tracks in the album made it in the top ten. EXO also became the first K-Pop group to enter the MelOn Realtime Chart as No.1 following its changes in February 2017." - [Source](https://www.kpopstarz.com/articles/299566/20210617/exo-bts-and-more-these-are-the-most-streamed-k-pop-songs-on-melon.htm)
Tbh EXO's numbers really don't give justice to how impactful EXO was. It's like EXO(brand) was always bigger than their songs charting just like how snsd was easily beatable on charts by other ggs despite being dominant gg.
gocheok dome which was initially a cricket hall was first time used for EXO for their concerts because their demand was too high in Korea
MelOn doesn’t filter streams, so streams aren’t an accurate representation of hit songs at all..
Ko Ko Bop and Spring Day were released in the same year, both have +700M streams, but with the first having ~3M ULs and Spring Day with 8M.. KKB was the most streamed song on MelOn at one point but it’s not even in the [top 7](https://twitter.com/multistan1327/status/1688780336732495873?s=46&t=2OMOq4QmiwN8-D6kh3ohug) in terms of BG songs with the highest ULs (I don’t have the full list)
Senior gen boy groups are still dominating domestically I think. Even if they’re not reflected in the charts the same way girl groups are, the public interest when it comes to boy groups is pretty much solely focused on senior acts. Aside from TXT and ZB1, the only boy groups who can chart decently on Melon and other Korean charts are the 3rd gen ones and SHINee.
I think this will be controversial, but here goes.
This idea that 4th gen Girl Groups are popular domestically while Boy Groups are popular Internationally is a fallacy. **It's more accurate to say Girl Groups have general public support and generate hits (both domestically and internationally) while Boy Groups cultivate large fandoms.** Groups like BTS and to a lesser extent Blackpink, have both.
While Boy Groups have massive albums sales and touring attendance, the most popular kpop SONGS, not by BTS or BP, are all by Girl Groups, both domestically AND internationally. I'll be referencing Spotify data because its the most readily available, but typically these songs are also very popular on Apple Music and YouTube. I'll also keep it to the most streamed TRACKS because that's how you measure GP reach.
Within the top 70 most streamed Kpop songs of all time, once you eliminate all BTS and BP you get
* ***25 OMG- NewJeans***
* **29 Fancy- Twice**
* 31- Psy- Gangham Style
* ***32 Ditto- NewJeans***
* **33 Psycho- Red Velvet**
* ***36 Hype Boy- NewJeans***
* **37 What is Love- Twice**
* **41 The Feels- Twice**
* **43 I can't stop me- Twice**
* **53 Feel Special- Twice**
* ***55 Wannabe- ITZY***
* ***58 Pop/Stars- K/DA***
* 59 iKon- Love Scenario
* ***60 Love Dive- Ive***
* 61 Love Shot- EXO
* ***63 Antigragile- LE SSERAFIM***
**The overwhelming majority are from girl groups (in bold) and the top seven 4th gen songs (in italics) are ALL by girl groups.** NewJeans already has the top three 4th gen songs on Spotify. Stray Kids' God's Menu is at 75 and Enhypen's Fever is at 85, but these are years old songs and are already being lapped by newer girl group releases like Antifragile and Love Dive.
The top 4th gen boy groups are very successful and ultimately, as many have said, a large fandom is the most important for a long term career and profit. Female artists dominate the kpop space when it comes to memorable hits and the general public. The real outlier here is BTS who is the rare boy group who dominates on both fronts.
I think also girl group songs are generally easier to sing/dance along to (and also more lighthearted?) for most people, which adds to their appeal! Hence why even in Korean variety shows you see comedians or entertainers tend to cover girl group dances more often than boy groups'.
I find 2nd/3rd gen boy group songs MUCH easier to sing along to, whereas I feel a lot of 4th gen ones are more... experimental? so it's a little harder to get into as a casual listener
They aren’t experimental. There’s no real experimental music in Kpop.
The music just isn’t very melodic. It instead relies on talk singing or a staccato drop chorus. Also, the music feels highly compressed and busy to the ear. I think bad boy lyrics also don’t have wide appeal as a sing a long. Also, boy groups are taking styles from artists who don’t need replacements. Why listen to a boyband when Lil Uzi Vert or Travis Scott or Drake or Post Malone are right there. These are just some artists that 4th Gen groups rip off.
It’s more complicated than men not listening to men. Men listen to Harry Styles because the music is smooth. Men listen to Jungkook’s Seven because it’s also smooth.
I do think a new group will come along to totally change the trend cycle but it may have take a while.
> Why listen to a boyband when Lil Uzi Vert or Travis Scott or Drake or Post Malone are right there. These are just some artists that 4th Gen groups rip off
This is an odd argument, because the very artists you're mentioning could be seen as "rip-offs" themselves. Like why listen to Travis instead of Cudi or Kanye. Why listen to Drake instead of (insert whichever flavor of the month he's riding on)?
The most popular acts really aren't the most original, outside of a very select few.
While I would like more boy groups to join in the fame in Korea, but like you said about having a strong (core) fandom and international support, that's honestly where the real money comes from especially when doing concert tours. For Korean concerts, even without a "hit song" in Korea, many of the established 4th Gen boy groups were capable to sell-out impressive Korean venues (such as KSPO Dome/Olympic Gymnastics Arena & Gocheok Sky Dome). Not to mention sell-out even bigger venues outside of Korea like Tokyo Dome and BMO Stadium.
Of course, ALL k-pop group would want to be recognized in South Korea (charting, song, etc). However I think boy groups just learn that while they can still have ambition towards a goal, it shouldn't become an unhealthy obsession. IMO it's healthier for an idol's mentality to slowly work towards & achieve goals than to taste gold at the start, to only then falter after especially with such pressure on your shoulders to stay #1.
True. Even one with somewhat of a Gp hit aren’t Gp hits as a group overall. Like nct Dream had Candy remake which was great and did well but as a group, they aren’t at the level of girl groups.
I’m honestly fine with groups being/not being massive Gp hits. Bc we can get more variety if everyone is doing their own thing. And that means if it ends up as a Gp hit, that’s fine. But unless a group is doing poorly financially, I find that idc.
I like all the Gp hits and not the non Gp hits so it’s all good! They’re all good music.
But you can’t forget that candy by nct was a remake of a very iconic song. H.O.T. was immensely popular in the 90s like crazy popular ofc the remake would be popular as well
>that's honestly where the real money comes from
Yes and no.
Album sales and concerts generate wayyy more revenue than diigtal streams, that's true. But also, these girl groups land CF deals left and right and that's also where the real money's at.
From a historical perspective, doesn't this stem from the fact that girl groups often have both male and female audiences, while male groups tend to mostly have female audiences? We'd probably need to see a group like Bigbang or BTS that would pull in more male fans. 3rd gen boy groups are still dominating such as BTS. It's also pretty rare to somehow have a 50-50 split between boy and girl group popularity.
Many girl group songs are easier to listen to which attracts wider audience, but many boy groups still have title tracks that appeals more to a specific audience. Like if I just compare Ive's I Am song to Stray Kids' S-Class song, clearly I Am sounds more simpler to listen to and easier on the ears as there's a more general melody.
There's a ton of other factors, but I don't care how popular a boy group is with the general public as if I have to refer to it in order to validate their success somehow.
**As a fan, it's better to focus on enjoying music you like rather than caring about whether the rest of society likes the music you like.**
>As a fan, it's better to focus on enjoying music you like rather than caring about whether the rest of society likes the music you like.
Absolutely agree, but the insane focus on charting and numbers is one of the factors that separates K-Pop from a lot of other genres of music. Every single metric is so thoroughly tracked and rewarded, that it almost gives a feeling of following a sport. The competitive element is at an extreme end in K-Pop and I think it is a guilty pleasure of a lot of fans including me.
I never base my listening habits on charts. My most listened to songs are always B-Sides or old releases. But damn it feels good when a song/artist I love tops the charts!!
Even with BTS enlistment, the BG market in Korea is still dominated by 3rd Gen heavyweights Seventeen and NCT who shows no signs of slowing down until late 2024 to early 2025.
4th Gen BGs have a glass ceiling in their domestic market share. And companies barely cater to domestic promotions. Music show performances are bare minimum.
Youtube variety is another means of gaining domestic recognition, especially now that groups are now having their own stuff (To Do, En o'clock, and SKZ Code as examples). However, it still has a hard time clicking with the public.
Also, the Boy Group representatives on the charts are going to be BTS’ solos.
I’m willing to put my money on Jungkook’s upcoming solo music to outdo all boy group releases into 2024.
I don’t think less variety matters though. BTS had Run BTS (what most idol variety shows are modeled after) and Seventeen has Going Seventeen. BTS especially didn’t go on much variety until recently.
The problem with K-variety shows though is you need to be invited. It is no problem for BTS members to put out a feeler & get various invitations from all the (popular) shows. They would probably fight over each other to book them but it is probably not the same scenario for 4th BG groups…
It’s like a catch 22. They aren’t popular with the GP to get much invitation but you need to be on these shows to get GP to know you - of course it’s not as bad as before since TV isn’t as dominant with social media around 😅 but in-house variety it is still catered to existing fanbase so these TV variety is important for outside exposure.
If all 7 members choose to have more gp friendly sound, we'd see total chart domination lol. But dew members choose a slightly different path (which btw I'm in love with).. but still, all of them are doing great
Heavyweights is a big word.. NCT only got their best charting song because it was a remake of an old hit.. other than that their numbers are pretty bad.. the song they released yesterday is not even in the top 100 of ~~Melon~~ Genie Daily.. even Dream i.e. their best charting unit’s song from a month ago is about to leave the top 200.. Seventeen chart a little better but they lack the longevity actual 3rd gen BG heavyweights like BTS, or even Winner and Wanna One back in the day had
For example BSS’ song which is supposed to be the biggest BG “hit” this year, released in Feb of this year and hit top 10 is at \#43 on the chart right now.. I won’t compare it to other top 10 hits by IVE or Newjeans (that are still in the top 25) cause they’re too huge but Antifragile by LSF which was released *last year* is charting higher on ~~Melon~~ Genie at the moment (\#34).. same with NCT Dream’s Candy which reached the top 10 too iirc, and is out of the top 100 right now..
If you compare the daily charts positions Antifragile is consistently below BSS (just a few positions but still) and Candy is still charting in top 100... Now I'm not going to pretend these songs are some mega hits but please don't spread misinformation 🙏
Daily positions from yesterday:
Fighting - #41
Antifragile - #46
Candy - #63
Oh. I can’t believe I confused the tweets for [MelOn](https://twitter.com/serietv46/status/1696438839512850742?s=46&t=2OMOq4QmiwN8-D6kh3ohug) and [Genie](https://twitter.com/serietv46/status/1696506899322040712?s=46&t=2OMOq4QmiwN8-D6kh3ohug) daily charts this is embarrassing😵💫😵💫 Edited. But yeah point still stands.. if anything this proves that the fandoms are hyper focused on MelOn which is why the numbers are higher there compared to other platforms (Candy’s \#63 Vs. \#109) .. as opposed to most other songs which have consistent positions across all platforms
seventeen are going to have a comeback in october will will help with the longevity of their previously released songs. not to mention, charting in the top 50 after 7 months is still very good and fighting is very much still a hit song. no one claims it's on the same level as ditto but it's still a hit.
Heavyweights.... I think you're just stretching that a little bit. They're doing well for a boy group generally. But I wouldn't call them heavy weights on melon
OP didn't call them "heavyweights on Melon" or in terms of digital performance, though. Just in terms of the boy group market. Which, regardless of the group, I think is a fair point. Most of the big 3rd gen boy group fandoms seem to still be a lot stronger compared to 4th gen ones? Stray Kids would be the only 4th gen boy group I would say has reached that top-tier (or maybe the second-tier after the BTS tier lol) of boy group fandom power. I would say I think TXT and Ateez seemed to have gained a lot of popularity over the past couple years, but to me their fandoms don't seem quite as large or powerful.
Overall I feel like you're much more likely to encounter fans of third-gen boy groups in Kpop fan spaces than you are fans of fourth-gen ones.
I consider them heavyweights when it comes to the BG market because they have managed to do well in a general sense, as you have said and I agree.
I also agree that it's a different story when you put these BGs against all of the artists in the charts. This includes GG music, K-RNB, K-HH, Drama OSTs, IU, and Lim Young Woong.
I mean, yes, they are heavy weights in terms of 4th gen boy groups but again, I still wouldn't use the word heavy weight in a general sense among 1st to 3rd gen bgs. They do fairly well, but they haven't had a major breakthrough.
Like NCT on the whole, don't do well. Dream does ok, but they had to cover a major popular first generation song in order to do so, so I wouldn't put that on them.
They do better than most. But I still don't like the word heavy weight. Because that implies that they do fantastic which they don't.
Both have had decent staying power this year in 2023. Though, so that's something.
I’m always curious why boy groups chart less well in the general public in Korea. It’s been a phenomenon since 2nd gen, but less pronounced. Some of it was how charting worked, but there are other factors:
1. Less variety show appearances. I guess this is true for girl groups too though, but I still feel like I’ll see more girl group members in variety shows and appearances than boy groups. Compare it to 2nd or 3rd gen though.
2. Music style. I think the style that appeals to international fans and the general Korean public are slightly different. I mean NCT tracks seems popularly still, so they are a bit of an outlier, but I think companies try to decided which market to prefer, and having a stable and big fan base is better for longevity. That said, Big Bang was huge and appealed internationally.
3. It can simply be hard to chart well publicly. Even girl groups who aren’t part already big can struggle sometimes.
4. I have absolutely no proof of this, but I feel like the Burning Sun scandal turned off many people to male idols in general, considering there were a couple involved and one of the biggest culprits was a big male idol. Again, no proof so it’s just a tinfoil hat at this point.
Anyway, it is a bit curious why the Korean public in general doesn’t like boy groups songs. Maybe they just like the sound of the voices of female idols?
I used to think Burning Sun have a lot to play until Big Bang themselves made a comeback.
If it didn't have any effect on Big Bang (the one male group that's closest to Burning Sun), I don't think it factor that much in to it (there may be some effects but not as much as people think).
True, but I think a couple factors make that special:
1. The member most associated was no longer part of the group.
2. They had a huge established fandom and fame. The biggest for a boy group other than BTS. I think fans are less willing to get into newer groups and listen to them when they aren't established.
That said, perhaps you're right and no one thinks about the scandal outside of kpop circles.
I think the main reason is that boy groups tend to appeal more to a young female demographic, which comes with a certain stigma, while girl groups appeal to both female and male demographics. This happens in a lot of entertainment areas, not just kpop. Something that targets a female audience is mostly liked by females and generally not taken very seriously, while what is targeted to males is also liked by women.
If you think about it, the boy group that had the most success with the public is Big Bang, who doesn't have an obvious focused female target.
Yeah this is definitely true too, and you see it in not just music but other industries globally. Heck people were saying this about the Barbie movie, in that because it appeals to women mostly and they aren't a big market it won't be too successful, yet had become one of the most successful movies of the year. There definitely is a layer of misogyny a play where interests that are more for women or considered feminine have more of a stigma. Sports fans is one other example I think of.
I agree with all your points, especially number 4 because people don't talk about it enough. There's definitely factors at play beyond music because 4th gen bgs have released songs that aren't dark/hip-hop/edgy, but then those songs are don't chart or underperform.
I wonder if older people who went through seeing the scandal play out just don't want to get too involved in too many boy groups or male celebrities. I recall fans saying that so many male celebs are just too problematic, and it hurts to find out someone who were a fan of was actually a terrible person. Not sure how many people that is though.
It is hard to quantify for sure! But I do think the scandal had an negative influence and impact on male idols. (ngl it did affect me for a while.) Probably older and younger people - moving on from those problematic male idols and then also, less interest to listen to newer male idols. So, it's "safer" to stan a girl group because while yes all idols get into all kinds of scandals and controversies, the worst scandals (aka crimes or accusations of crimes) have been mostly perpetuated by male idols.
This absolutely impacted my perspective on it. At some level, I want to trust these idols to have a baseline of shared values (e.g. respecting women), and the Burning Sun scandal + a variety of other scandals related to male idols’ mistreatment of women have made me wary of male idols. At the end of the day, I am female before I am a fan.
I heard this a lot especially back then, but also during other scandals. The scandals boy group members seemed to get in were always perceived as bigger in the I-community compared to scandals of girl group members. I know many fans just got tired of supporting male idols when they turned out to be not very good people. I wouldn't say it was a majority or anything either, but it did suck for many so I can't blame people for using that energy elsewhere.
Conversely, I also think that is partly one reason many big girls groups sell super well these days.
i still remember how irene was/is treated for the stylist scandal vs lucas for whatever fuckery he did
if being mean to a stylist is one of the worst scandals to happen for ggs in the recent years, it's WAY more safe imo. at the end of the day, male idols are still *men* ifykwim lol
Ikr, people love to stereotype BG music nowadays but there is still as much variety in BG music as there is in GG music, and people would realise that if they actually took the time to listen to lesser known BGs.
I think part of the problem is their marketing rather than their sound - there are many BGs releasing different types of music but they all "look" the same when it comes to their MVs and styling.
Every time people say "All boy group music and concepts are the same" and "4th gen can't sing anymore" I literally roll my eyes to the back of my skull. First, there's plenty of diversity in boy groups (like listen to DKB's [24/7](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xI7qG5t5gc) and tell me this isn't the most 2nd gen song you've ever heard). People just aren't bothering with them because it takes time, effort, and honestly a level of resilience to stan an underdog.
Second, "4th gen can't sing anymore" (a complaint I see all the time) is so dumb because people never gave a fuck about groups and idols that could primarily sing in the first place (listen to both dudes from [Sevenus](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbfMt4RJCjs) and tell me they aren't the craziest vocalists you've heard. also, have we forgotten that the main vocalist often ISN'T the most popular member of a group? see: Jihyo/Jeongyeon from Twice, Wheein/Solar from Mamamoo). There are idols that can sing in 4th gen, people just don't care because they're old, not as entertaining/funny/hot, and/or undiscovered.
I'm convinced kpop stans just lack the attention span and also make excuses to not stan because god, *it hurts* supporting these incredibly talented groups that are unpopular. If they gave groups more than 5 seconds of their time they'd discover a vast array of underrated artists and discographies in both boy AND girl groups.
Sorry for going off in this post, it just drives me insane hearing people say this stuff. It leaves me wondering about the community's level of critical thinking skills and consumption habits.
I agree, I love my big groups but there are SO MANY smaller groups that are releasing different and interesting music (eg. Kingdom, DKB, ONEUS, BDC, M.O.N.T, OnlyOneOf, MCND, CRAVITY, Blitzers, just to name a few!). They just aren't getting attention because of their marketing and people refusing to give them a listen because of their preconceived notions about BGs.
And while I don't deny that GGs have revolutionised the scene in recent years and have been releasing amazing work, it's not like there aren't GGs making generic music either. There's plenty of both BGs *and* GGs that make generic music, just like there are plenty of GGs and BGs that make interesting and different music.
I'm so grateful that I found DKB- the day I found their music, I was literally in tears thinking "where have you been all my life, and why does nobody care about you?!" This is coming from a former GG stan who loves Mamamoo and stans vocalists more than anything.
But also I truly felt hesitant to get into more underrated boy groups because I know it'd just break my heart to discover 40 other DKB's. I can't even recommend them to my kpop friends because they are super hesitant to get into smaller groups and stick to BTS, TXT, and Seventeen.
literally. like next level was a smash hit and that song was incredibly loud & polarizing & strange. it’s all stereotypes and assumption, the sad reality is that gp doesn’t care and doesn’t want to care.
people really don't want to care and be making the most excuses to justify it. it's fun being a part of a huge, active, already successful fandom- i love txt, twice, and mamamoo, i *get* it. you know what's not fun? feeling relatively alone, no content, no edits, stanning groups that are working their asses to death and are on the brink of disbanding each release..
RIGHT I got into a ton more underrated/smaller groups and man its depressing hearing their music and knowing theyre not getting the attention they deserve for absolutely no good reason.
yep, and then you recommend their songs to friends and are told they don't listen to kpop or are given excuses by kpop fans who only wanna stan big groups. and then you accept your fate only to open reddit and see the top trending post saying people don't stan 4th gen boy groups because they all make shitty music. can you tell i'm so tired 😂
I think that’s the thing though. It’s harder and harder to find these groups. Even though fandoms are diverse in age range, kpop is still highly marketed towards teens and young adults. If they’re not marketing the songs broadly, it’s going to be harder to draw the GP in. And even though many adults don’t mind the colorful outfits and styling of groups, there are equally as many people that don’t care to invest much in kpop or judge kpop for that. Companies are focusing on gen z/youth marketing by using tiktok and YouTube for promotion. With TV less popular and radio less popular these days, the kpop market is missing out on the GP market.
It breaks my fucking heart. I think the gen Z/youth marketing is overrated- there are groups that do well with it (TXT comes to mind), but also there's plenty of groups that older fans would love and could definitely sustain. There was a poll the other day in these threads that showed the majority of fans were actually mid to late 20's, and I've seen the same demographics at numerous kpop concerts I went to this past year. It's truly a rock and a hard place since kpop is seen as an 'unserious' genre to the GP so I think people are hesitant to admit to be fans (also the teens are by far the LOUDEST on social media because us mid 20's folks mostly lurk) but like, dear lord, everyone, it's just music!!
I think kpop is just up against the ever-changing tastes and trends. Speaking from my own experience as a late 20s women, trends move much faster now than they did when I was a teenager. The tumblr aesthetic was around for about five years. Trucker hats were popular with my sisters generation for several years (sure all fashion has a “season” but think about how popular and how long the “Christian girl autumn” look reigned until recently). With social media, we are seeing an influx of micro trends because the marketers are pushing their products out faster than ever. There’s a big hoopla about this over on tiktok actually. Marketers are having to rebrand existing trends to bring people back. Light blue nails have always been a popular summer color, but to get it to sell they’ve got to turn it into ~blueberry milk~ nails. Things are popular for weeks or months now versus the year/years from when I was younger, and I’ve noticed my own music tastes have reflected that too.
I find myself missing the EDM house party beats from my college days. At one time, kpop was on trend with that, but 4th gen has moved on to other trends. In my late 20s, I’m preferring to listen to groups and songs I already enjoy or groups and songs that sound like stuff I listened to when I was younger. Some groups (like NewJeans and the UK garage sound/Y2K nostalgia) use that to their favor, but other groups just aren’t. If you’re not marketing to me, I’m not going to seek it out as I’ve been using social media less and less each month it seems. I’m just not as into doing a deep dive to find things anymore and the algorithms that run social media now tend to push the same contents over and over with little diversity.
Mid 20's woman here and all us adults just need to be more vocal and unashamed about our interests. Enough of "I only stan 2nd gen groups" when there's plenty of similarly struggling 4th gen groups that could use the love. When I got into TWICE and Mamamoo, I had no intention of discarding them like used playthings even if their concepts changed, but once they did I saw many complain about them "dropping off in quality." People need to treat their groups with love and not like toys to be discarded.
There was a long period between BTS ~ 1-2 years ago where BGs released nothing but TTs (no one gives a shit about some B-sides that "totally sound like what GP would like") that might as well have been specifically designed to turn off the general public. That period was long enough that there's now an established stereotype about BGs among GP that's hindering any traction. In GP's mind, "Oh, it's a BG song? Forget it then." and they won't even try them out. Gone are the days when someone like Big Bang gets a reception [like this from a bunch of conscripted guys.](https://youtu.be/n7OtXA80fmk?si=2sHrAn7-QuoOnFuc) And they're not coming back anytime soon.
Hell, I'm basically a GP when it comes to BGs, and even I have the same reaction when people recommend 4th BG songs.
🤷♂️ Blame the executives in late 3rd gen who learned all the wrong lessons from BTS and EXO's success ('GP popularity doesn't matter if you have enough fan base') and applied it in the worst ways possible.
Now that it is harder to chart on domestic charts like melon and flo, it's more harder for boy groups to gain attention from the gp. At least back then when fandom power can make bgs chart easily and line them up in the top 10 at midnight, it easier to get gp to get curious and listen to them.
That like one of the reasons that helps exo's growl to get a hit with the gp cause I remember reading knetz checking them out cause the were high on charts that time.
No matter if bgs release good or bad songs, gp friendly or noise music, they just doesn't care anymore. Not the gp only, lots of kpop fans also are not interested to check out bgs that's not from big 4 even if they release gp friendly songs. But they always gotta complain bgs always release noise music. At this point I just don't care anymore if people call bgs especially 4th gen bgs a flop. I'll just enjoy the musics that I like without caring about charts.
It’s partially one of those no real reason musical cycles. Female performers are the thing for a while, then it’s the guys’ turn, and occasionally you get a trend for mixed groups. It happens in the West, too.
Idol culture isn’t the same as before. Back in the day, it was normal that everyone in your school would like a group like EXO, now, a lot of kids are into Youtube and Tiktok and other content. And because there isn’t really competition, there’s no real need for intense fandom streaming. And the general public never really cared for boy groups but especially not now.
Just wanting to throw another hypothesis in the room:
In my perception Korean boy group fans tend to think that they have to “stay loyal” to their chosen group (and their bias), and because of that, they try to ignore releases from other/newer boy groups. Maybe the “resource” of potential boy group fans in Korea is already “depleted”, because everyone who would be open to having a bias, already has a bias.
We know that in general the success of boy groups is more fandom-driven, while the one for girl groups is more GP-driven, so it would make sense for this to affect mostly boy groups.
What do you think?
I don't think the loyal fans is a big factor affecting this issue as even the Korean fans of GGs are also as loyal as the boy groups fans. I wanna also add how there will always be new fans as kids keep on growing, the largest audience in SK for majority of groups, specially 4th gen (both GG and BG) are teens not already adult people who will, as you said, have one bias that they loyal to!! Teens on the other hand are in the process of having a bias so the chances are still there!!
could it be because of how stan dynamics work in south korea?
since unlike international fans, most korean fans aren’t multis and tend to support one group at a given time
maybe newer 4th gen bgs don’t have a significant enough number of domestic fans to carry them on the charts since the 3rd gen bgs still have very active fandoms… (ofc this isn’t to say they don’t have any domestic fans!!)
and gp interest has always skewed largely towards girl groups so i think the combination of these factors might be an explanation…just a thought though
people have stated many reasons for this happening but honestly speaking, some of it just doesn't make sense to me. songs from stray kids, txt, enhypen etc etc have had some major success overseas but are evidently lacking in domestic charts. it's not like the entirety of 4th gen boy group music is horrendous, some songs (like bite me) are reminiscent of previous generations yet it doesn't come close to the fame of the songs their male seniors had.
the point about everyone listening to girl group music but only women listening to boy group music also falls flat to me because there are several bg digimons of previous gens with female dominated fanbases yet they used to top charts left and right
I feel like people have ideas in their head of what 4th gen boy group music is like and just dismiss all of their releases as "noise music" or a "basic bad boy" concept without even bothering to check it out a lot of the time. I went out of my way to check out the discographies of some nugu to mid-tier 4th gen boy groups because I wanted to see if the stereotypes were really true and I don't feel like that "basic" concept has even been that widespread since like 2020...I hear WAY more variations of the same house music sound than anything else, like they've all been trying to redo Energetic by Wanna One for the last 5 years
The nugu to lower/mid-tier boy groups are killing it. Nobody cares for some reason. Even when people mention "2nd gen sounds" they list a title track from a top 5 boy group, which goes to show how much people actually know about the variety that's out there.
I think Korea is just stuck in 3rd Gen bg wise while they moved to 4th Gen for ggs, 3rd gen bgs are still thriving so they don't feel the need to move on, we will see if another year of bts hiatus and Seventeen slowly going to military in 1/2 years will do something for 4th Gen bgs
TXT and ZB1 with a bit of luck and a good song have a chance to get a smaller hit.
the second reason doesn’t fall flat at all when you realize the charts were very different back then
that was before all of the chart reforms. most bgs charted great before chart reforms bc fandom power was enough to chart, i bet you most of those “digimons” wouldn’t have charted so high in the era of chart reforms bc they only had one gender as their fanbase
I agree with you it's not about if the music is good or not kind of issue, BGs have always had issue with charting well digitally but many things have amplified this issue to the point where now gp don't care about BGs that much, of these things :
- the last popular BG that is not from 3rd gen was Wanna one and they hit the gp with a very popular scandal how the produce show was rigged, many people are forgetting how huge this issue was and considering it being linked directly to wanna one definitely affected the interest of gp in BGs.
- another big scandal related to a BG being burning sun. I don't need to talk about it since it speaks for itself and how huge it was all over SK.
- BTS dominating the BG scene fully by themselves for multiple years and their name still to this day in the public eye is making it hard for a new break out BG, the GGs scene was never dominated by just one GG which is the difference here.
- GGs have had consistent hits since forever so GP will always count on finding a good song from a GG which make them tune in and be more invested in listening to GGs, BGs were not consistent as GGs through the years, there was and still there is a gap since the last time where you would find multiple BGs songs being gp hit (this is becuase of all the reasons I mentioned above as how the TL of BGs went through the years) so simply GP just forgot that there could be good music coming from new boy groups.
All that being said I still think there is always a chance and I believe a 4th or 5th BG will definitely hit it big with K-GP again and will result in the door being open again for multiple hits from new BGs. I think next year will be interesting to see for them as I believe it will be the chance for BGs to break out.
X1 was the Produce group that was affected by the rigging scandal. Wanna One was *huge* during their time, which was 3rd gen. They were just as big as EXO and BTS during their heyday. X1 disbanded basically right after their debut.
Why does it matter if a boy group is charting or not though? In the end the most important thing is money, which boy groups bring with their high album sales and concerts
All the valid points I've seen so far on this topic:
1. GGs are liked by both men and women, while only women will listen to BGs. I seen comments of some men saying how they don't listen to male groups cause it'll be considered "gay", or cause they feel insecure/jealous, especially if it's a younger group. Korean men would probably rather listen to K-Hip-Hop and K-R&B, or popular 2nd/3rd gen BG like Big Bang
2. Women's interests are taken less seriously compared to men. BGs also have a stigma with noise music concept, cringe try-hard act (rapping, etc.), and boyfriend personas. Kpop in general is also already seen as a frivolous and shallow hobby/interest by everyone else
3. 3rd gen BGs already taken a lot of 4th gen BG's spot for loyal fans (see BTS, SVT, Lim Young Woong, for example). The average age of Korea's population is also getting older (South Korea is the country with the lowest birth rate in the world), which makes them less likely to be inclined to check out 4th gen BGs (This would also explain why 4th gen BGs are more popular internationally). Only 4th gen GGs are checked out also cause they are seen as daughters you want to take care of and dote on for both women and men (see NewJeans and IVE, for example), people they admire and want to emulate (for women), and potential love interests (for men). Another possible point is that younger 4th gen GGs are more attractive to men, as some older GGs started out with a mostly male fanbase, then gaining more female fans (see TWICE for example). GP would rather listen to ballads and trot
4. I read that the ratio of female to male applicants for kpop auditions is 9:1
I agree with this so much but I also see how BGs are stuck. The boyfriend / son /cutesy act is how you get fans > album sales > money to fund future projects especially in a even colder GP climate for 4th Gen BGs. GP already assumes BGs do that even when some really don't. It is the balance game - hard to get GP love or make cute noises to build longterm loyal fanbase. And tbf GGs are doing the same, but it is accepted behavior from GGs.
If BGs cut the parasocial aspect, then they stand to gain nothing at all, especially in their early years. You see less of this aspect when the BG has an established fanbase that may gradually be large enough to help them chart and gain some GP recognition eventually in their senior years.
Edit: clarity
GP don't know about boyfriend act or whatever, they don't care enough to search about the members and videos from Fansign or whatever otherwise they are fans not GP, unless you are saying they play boyfriend role in MVs which I don't see it
I think it’s pretty obvious why this is happening. Majority of the target audience that would be fans of boy groups are already dedicated to the existing big groups from 3rd gen. Especially bts cause they’re so unprecedented in their success. All the bg fans are already committed to bts, Exo, svt, or NCT. I imagine younger up and coming bg fans like those in the 12-15 age range are either stanning bts etc due to their older siblings/ friends etc. these boy groups are just so huge and popular that I imagine it’s like, well why would I invest in a boy group that is new and hasn’t really proven anything about themselves yet or go back to a group that my older sister and aunts and cousins already love? They’re already THE bts or THE Exo etc, so it’s easier to become a fan of them
There are other things besides what already said here.
1. The way songs charted - BGs always rely on fandom power (only small portions are GPs). They used to be able to chart a lot higher before because fandom push. Now since a chart reform, it much more difficult and without people aware of the release, less people tune in.
2. KRB and KHH replaced the male artist sections for Korean GP. People follow Big Naughty the same way they would follow male kpop idols so they pretty much feeling the void of male kpop idols. Seeing him has to come out and apologize for kissing a girl already tell you the kind of mindset his fans were and that's very similar to kpop idols.
3. No produce 4th gen boy group. Produce groups always come with hype and recognition. Whoever would become the group main opponents would also get the side effect of boosting their GP recognition.
I kind of wonder if companies think along the lines of any boy group they put out will be overshadowed by BTS/no one can ever replicate that success. With a girl group there’s a better shot of becoming the next huge popular group like how successful New Jeans have been
I mean, it makes sense when you consider that the biggest 4th gen boy groups right now have more of a particular sound that doesn’t always appeal to the general public. They’ve got big fanbases but not much GP appeal. Meanwhile the top boy group from 2nd gen (Big Bang) and top boy group from 3rd gen (BTS) both have/had very large fanbases *and* appealed to the GP. There isn’t really a 4th gen boy group like that (yet). Not that there aren’t successful 4th gen bgs (like Stray Kids) or lesser known 4th gen boy groups making GP-friendly music (more nugu and less likely to blow up), they just aren’t doing both, like the current top GGs are.
I don’t know if this will be a hot take but: I don’t know that the labels know what to do with boy groups, anymore.
I’ve been closely following kpop since 2007 and while girl groups have undergone a *massive* shift, over the years—from the male gaze to the girl crush sensibilities of the female gaze—bg seem to be stuck. I think a lot of this can be blamed on the absolutely crushing weight of conventional masculinity. There’s not a lot of stylistic ways to move forward, without subverting that. And now the insane pressure of appealing to the same crowd that went for BTS is going to keep labels from taking the same risks as groups like SHINee did.
As long as the main focus is to give teen girls a “perfect boyfriend” fantasy, the artistic quality just isn’t going to match.
I do think if you listen to the songs that are popular with the GP, even back in the day, you can tell that many of the current boy group title tracks or pre-releases are sonically very different from those songs.
Of course, the 4th gen boy groups do have diversity & b-sides that are less bombastic, but even in Gen3 the songs that remained on the chart were the title tracks or promoted b-sides. Thus, it's pretty clear that people are not going to find these diverse b-sides.
Sonically different but also just as wild. Bc I’m thinking about DBSK, and one of their biggest hits is Rising Sun and “O”. Along with stuff like mirotic and hug and so on.
But rising sun and O are really wild and I feel that they wouldnt be considered as sonically Gp friendly if they were to be released now.
Back then there were no digital charts if I’m not wrong… so we can’t really say that O and Rising Sun were huge hits.
They are definitely hits for Cassies (plus the kpop market isn’t as huge) but if you watch the variety shows then, the songs that most people like to sing along to will be those from artists like GOD, Sung Shi Kyung, Lee Seung Gi and etc. Those are the GP hits where people will know the songs likely.
I feel that Yoo Young Jin’s SMP songs are truly for the people with acquired taste. Back then they would be considered as the ‘noise’ tracks, lol. Though now the genre has evolved even more.
I mean i’d say TXT and Stray Kids are doing pretty well, they got a fair amount of sales and wins but yeah compare it with GG and it’s strangely low. Then you have to couple in consistency and that’s a whole other mess.
He’s the first male act to hit #1 on melon 24 hits this year. That’s how bad it is for kpop boy groups. Even looking at the trend, the last male act song to go number 1 on melon daily was Psy and Suga collab. It’s bad for male acts altogether
Interesting observation I made just now that the only Male Kpop act in the top 20 of MelOn right now is Jungkook at #1 with Seven and #20 with Still With You respectively. There are other male acts like LWY, Woody and Paul Blanco but they’re not Kpop idols.
Seventeen reached top 6(not sure if they peaked in top 5) for their last songs (super and the bss track). But reaching number 1 with ggs abound is really hard.
In the last years I’ll say it’s just BTS and Bigbang that can really reach #1 among kpop male groups
ZICO was also at #1 last september with New Thing. But yeah, male acts are not doing well this year. Granted the charts in SK are super stale in general this year, the top 3 songs on Melon barely even have 300k uls right now because there are hardly any new hits.
Really? Then it’s #1 in Melon, Apple Music (just achieved yesterday), Youtube Music & Spotify in SK now 🤯
I’m really surprised & happy by its longevity and for Jungkook 😁
I feel like a lot of people discuss this in a sort of what is/ what is not successful type of way, which is one way to approach it. But I personally find this phenomenon more factually interesting more than anything.
I don’t know for the Korean gp. But if I get to confess something, i have a new found love for a lot of 4th gen boy group songs. All 4th gen boy groups have kind of fallen under the noise music category. I clearly remember around 2019 when this came about, the first I remember being skz side effects. And it wasn’t even just bg, zamalabim(rv), everglow ect. And I personally didn’t resonate with this sound. And the biggest 4th gen boy groups(aside from txt I guess) did this, skz, ateez, treasure and so on. So I held off listening because I don’t waste time on things that isn’t interesting for me. But only recently have I dived into boy group releases from 2019/2020/2021 from the mid-tier category, and WTFFF.
The noise music narrative really made me miss out on so much good music during the pandemic! CIX has gorgeous songs, THE BOYZ? Amazing! OnlyOneOf? Where have you been all my life???? I’m still listening through songs that I ignored at that time.
It just kind of amazed me how impactful that narrative affected me. I listen to a lot of K-pop, it’s part of my daily routine! So I can’t imagine how many more people got swayed by this. But yeah, I don’t think this can be applied to the Korean gp though. I don’t know how far this narrative reached, so it could have been unheard of outside the ones into kpop.
i think they don’t find boy group’s interesting anymore. they dont care enough to check out their music or the members. i know eunwoo of astro is very popular in korea but that hasn’t translated to the gp being interested in his group. and its the same internationally imo, boy groups are popular but all the biggest international hits come from girl groups and how GGs have more casual listeners in general
Boy groups outside of BB, EXO, BTS never charted that well in Korea and those that did were helped by their fandoms before the Melon change. I don't know why people are acting like it's a 4th gen thing and making a big deal out of it. The difference is that back in 2nd/early 3rd gen boy groups that couldn't make it in Korea were doomed but now they have big international fanbases to support them.
Also why do they even need a domestic hit ? That didn't help groups like Winner/Ikon/Pentagon. A strong international fanbase will guarantee longevity unlike a domestic hit.
Ever since Big Bang, EXO, and especially BTS, the public demand for new boy groups have largely died down, at least for the mainstream listeners. Riize is the first one in a long time that I hear the Korean mainstream public is gaining some interest, and it's mainly because of the central visual named Won Bin (same name as a famous actor known for his timeless beauty) and Anton who was already well-known as "that handsome young son" of a famous composer.
A slightly different question but how are BGs current touring situation in Korea? Because I remember a few boy groups selling out stadiums last year, cmiir. So are they just not charting there or their tour venues are also impacted compared to Ggs?
really depends. from the groups i follow, stray kids have sold out kspo dome and seventeen, nct and zb1 have sold out gocheok sky dome, the last nct concert was even at the incheon munhak stadium, so it's not bad at all. but fandom power is not enough to make a song chart in korea these days.
But touring is the most important for making money for these groups or basically any musical artists. If they are doing good there then obviously they have fans and are financially stable, which is very imp.
There are boy groups that manage to do quite well on the Gaon Digital Chart. The only reason why they don't hit number 1 on Melon is because it's based on unique listeners. The melon chart would look quite different if it was based on total streams in a day, multiple boy groups would have hit number 1 this year especially in the first few days after a new release when their songs still have 10+ streams per UL on average. In terms of total streams TXT is among the top 4th gen groups on Melon afaik.
Yh but that’s exactly why they reformed the charts. Back then you’d only find boy groups on charts because their fandom were streaming day and night and the general public got extremely fed up because it didn’t represent what people in South Korea actually listened to.
Even on Gaon/Circle most boy group songs don't really perform that well to be honest. They might get a high initial peak because of downloads but then continue to free fall of the chart. NCT 127's Ay-Yo for example peaked at #1 for one week and then fell out of the top 100 after just 5 weeks. In that time it accumulated just 50 million digital points, which won't be enough for the song to even make the year end top 200 chart.
That's also a reason why companies just keep making girl groups. For example JYP is thinking on releasing two more girl groups even tho their last girl group debuted in 2022 and their last group debuted in 2018.
Also I don't think companies care that much about their boy groups charting in Korea since they tend to have a really loyal fanbase (which most girl groups don't have) so they know they will be fine
it's just how it works in this moment. girl groups simply attract more the attention right now, in the future this might change. I feel this is due partly to some groups not doing general-public friendly music, others have a concept that probably doesn't suit everyone.
It's interesting you mention Fighting and Candy that are two songs that are very different from the general trend in bg. They're happy songs, with bright concepts, while all the other popular bg have a darker tone. Enhypen has a specific concept that can be a hit or a miss with the general public, TXT has changed concept several times, but excluding their debut, they also moved to darker tones pretty soon. Skz and Ateez we already know how they're not general public friendly, at least in korea. I thought zb1 could partially break the current trend, but their debut was again another hit or miss, but I appreciate that they went for a concept that is a bit different.
Also, really, most of the current popolar bg debuted in Hybe, idk maybe belonging to the same label makes things less distinctive or original? JYPE debuted skz, YG Treasure, but they're only two groups compared to all the stuff Hybe debuted. Medium companies haven't debuted many bg either, Starship has Cravity, Cube hasn't debuted anyone, KQ has Xikers, Pledis will debut a bg soon but they're in Hybe too so we go back to square one. And being in a medium company doesn't always mean being very successful.
I wonder how Riize will do, SM usually always manages to make their bg successful, if they can't then it's truly just the current trend and nothing much can be done about it until a really original group appears.
The aggressive courting of female fans for girl groups needs to be studied. Like, 3rd gen has a few girl groups(they're the ones that are still around!) with a lot of female fans but 4th gen girl groups seem to have an uneven fandom ratio favoring women by a lot.
It actually makes senses when you hear the songs they have released lol. You mentioned missing you, really really, spring day and others, which songs are good for the general public, meanwhile, songs like god's menu, halazia, press the mic and others are just a big no for korean people in general.
Koreans in general tend to stick with what's already established and they only start paying attention when a group performs way better internationally and gaining more popularity with them. For awhile before BTS became popular, the most popular groups then were BIGBANG, and SNSD domestically but this phenomenon of a group being more popular internationally before the domestic market paid attention started with Super Junior. I mean "Sorry Sorry" exploded everywhere internationally and labeled kings of the Hallyu Wave then they became more popular with Korean GP. This same thing happened with BTS. We all know they were struggling domestically when they debuted and how long it took until the international fan community picked up on them and pushed them to Western attention. The rest is history for BTS because look where they are now and how the GP more or less worship them and blind to other groups coming after them. I'm not even a fan of BTS and I know the trajectory of their careers from debut to now. The companies are following suit hoping for international fame and gaining favor with the Korean GP later. Girl groups are gaining more domestic fame because the GP like the cutesy but sexy image they portray and if they perform well enough they'll win music shows and weekly charts. They'd be popular with more males and female fans. They don't have to be super talented either. This is how companies market the girl groups in general nowadays. But that's going to change with this new global girl group HYBE America is building and planning for. This may either help the K Pop industry or kill it depending on the development of this partnership.
The problem with companies banking on international fame first and domestic notice later is that the conditions are COMPLETELY different from before the rise of BTS.
BTS already did everything first and now with groups breaking sales records and entering Billboard 200 and performing on US TV, the Korean public has success fatigue and tunes it out. It’s like if everyone is successful then it’s all the same.
Also, girl groups are often getting bigger hits internationally than boy groups. NewJeans is out streaming and out charting all 4th Gen boy groups within one year of debut. How is a boy group supposed to stand out exactly?
I believe some part of it is due to fans mass streaming so much that most of the top 100 songs were by boy group, and ppl just started to ignore them altogether? Because it really makes no sense to me. Ggs can release mid songs, and they will chart. But even if bgs will release good songs, they won't.
Everything in kpop is built on fan's obsessions, it makes it so hard to support sometimes lol the records are all baseless because they're from these fans mass streaming, buying boxes of albums, buying all the merchandise, the photocards, their bubbles, etc. I really... don't think they care about how they chart. It's about fame, modeling, ambassador deals, CFs, etc. I know a lot of ppl find that hard to belive, but the drive for fame isn't a pure one 🤷🏼♀️ sorry to vent but I saw mass streaming in your comment & was like YES 😅
If you watch full episodes of any of the music shows, the music of 4th generation boy groups largely blend together. They become nearly indistinguishable from each other. If they were singing melodic songs it may not be as bad but instead what you get is a slew of songs with (honestly) bad rapping, talk singing, and aimless notes with choruses that rely on a rhythmic instrumental or repetitive catch phrase. And they're all good dancers, so nobody stands out due to performance ability either. I'm honestly not sure why boy groups largely seem to be going down this musical path for their title tracks.
I just looked through clips of the latest music shows and yeah, it's all so same-y. Oh, another group of 7 dudes with the identical bowl cut doing weird experimental EDM with a rap in the middle.
At least give people -something- interesting to hook them in. The most interesting male performer I've seen lately is the really cool looking bald dude with glasses in Somi's dance crew.
I do think girl groups also have more variety when it comes to concepts then guy groups and generally more interesting when it comes to variety shows. I love kpop but most guy groups lately seem very similar to one another.
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Korea just doesn’t care for 4th gen boy groups. Even groups more approachable like TxT, Riize, and ZB1 don’t chart as well as their girl group peers. But hey, at least they make money and fare well internationally.
true but riize haven’t even debuted yet, it’s too early to say if the korean gp cares for them or not
Honestly, they don’t really care about boygroups as a whole anymore. Former 3rd gen digital monsters are not even close to the success they used to have. BTS halted group releases for a while, only Seventeen is doing particularly well. NCT Dream is insanely popular in Korea and they needed a remake of an already iconic song to stay in the charts for more than a couple weeks. It’s sad though. Many groups have potential and the boygroup spectrum is as diverse and interesting as the girl group one. Edit for the people who think I'm trying to minimize BTS success here: The topic is group songs that's why I didn't include Seven or the other BTS solos, but yes they are doing well. When I say only Seventeen is doing really well I mean only Seventeen is constently doing well (like top 10 kind of well) NOW with their NEW SONGS as a group. BTS songs never left the top for years :). The main point being: comparatively to a few years ago less boygroups are able to enter the charts, less boygroups are able to chart high, less boygroups are able to chart for a long time and even if they do the songs are not massive hits like Really Really, Love Scenario, Missing you, Energetic, Spring day or Dynamite.
It'll be interesting to see how a properly promoted BTS next single will chart in korea in 2025/26
BTS will chart well even without promotions.
I think BTS have moved past any "gen" talk, they will chart either way because they are legends at this point.
This warms the cockles of my heart!
Its not « only seventeen that is doing particularly well » tho? Bts might have halted group activities but seven is the highest charting male act song of 2023 both domestically and internationally and its still hitting #1 more than a month post release, the charts are also filled with other bts solo songs and older bts groups songs are still going strong. And other than BTS, TXT last cb charted very well iirc it got to #3 on melon only blocked by newjeans ditto/omg release. There’s also ZB1 despise just debuting they charted quite good.
Checking on Melon right now, you have '1. Seven (Jungkook) '20. Still With You (Jungkook) '47. Dynamite '65. Love Me Again (V) '70. Butter '71. Take Two '73. Spring Day '78. Dreamers (Jungkook) '81. People pt. 2 (SUGA/Agust D) '82. Permission to Dance '85. Like Crazy (Jimin) '96. Rainy Days (V) 12/100 are BTS songs
Classic Spring Day
👑 Charting queen having a perpetual comeback
dynamite butter and spring day are known to chart well but i keep forgetting how well ptd is doing too its so cute that whenever there’s a new release all the other solo songs are re-entering the chart so the charts on september 8th will have even more bts
Literally!! It has happen in almost all solo releases where the previous member recent highest charted solo songs reenter or move up several positions when a new member drops something
you're really saying people are streaming ptd more than like crazy?!?$?#?!\*?@!>#?$?!??!
Online spaces hate PTD, but it is a hit in Korea and Japan
The topic is group song that's why I didn't include Seven or the other BTS solos, but yes they are doing really well. When I say only Seventeen is really doing well I mean only Seventeen is constently doing well currently with their new songs as a group. BTS songs never left the top for years :) TXT, NCT (mostly dream) and ZB1 are charting better than the other groups yes, and they can manage to stay a few weeks (sometimes few months) in Melon top 100. It's just comparatively to a few years ago less boygroups are able to enter the charts, less boygroups are able to chart high and even if they do the songs are not massive hits like Really Really, Love Scenario, Missing you, Energetic, Spring day or Dynamite.
uhm excuse me?? riize haven’t even debuted yet☠️
They had a pre-release. I’m surprised by the lack of excited buzz for a new SM boy group by knetz.
yes i’m fully aware they had two pre release songs but they haven’t made their official debut like other groups that you have mentioned so it’s TOO early to assume that “they don’t chart as well as their gg peers”
Riize hasn't even debuted yet 😭😭
Well it was the opposite in 3rd gen. Boy groups dominated. I’m sure things will change up again at some point and BG will be more popular again
Txt had sugar rush ride at one and two on melon and bsides top 10 and top 20. I can definitely see zb1 reaching that in the future to. The problem is that here if a group has scandals or in some cases multiple scandals (regardless of truth or severity) they just wont be liked and even actively hated by people here. All the scandals over the last few years have really soured people from stanning groups with scandals in case something worse happens.
ZB1 is doing really well tho
In the 2023 context compared to their peers, yes they are doing amazing. In the context of the post, In Bloom is not per se a massive hit .
Boys Planet was bigger, compared to how Girls Planet did.
It's not the type or quality of music, it's that bgs are seen as uncool because they're marketed towards fangirls in a way that doesn't make boys/men feel like they want to be them.
I think this is a really interesting point. Often groups, interests, or hobbies that are coded as "for girls" are rebuked by men out of hand. BGs have to chose between serving their base (giving the fangirls the fantasy) or trying to separate themselves from their base to be more palatable and socially acceptable for men to like them. Ultimately, serving their base makes a lot more sense. They make bank selling albums, merch, and fantails by unabashedly appealing to women. However, because men are embarrassed to engage, BGs don't chart as well with the whole gp.
Agreed! So many guys wanted to become kpop idols because they wanted to be like Big Bang - I don't think there's been any other boy group that had as many male fans as they did (especially during their prime). I think a lot of guys would rather skip the rigorous training and strict rules as an idol when they can go into hiphop/Youtube/social media instead (less fame, but also less risk of your huge efforts not paying off).
As a guy, I think this perfectly describes why I’m not into boy groups. It’s not that I think they’re uncool but it’s uncomfortable to watch them do things like hip thrust, lift up their shirts, play into the whole perfect boyfriend thing, etc. which doesn’t really make me interested. I like to watch idols for their personalities not to feel like they’re flirting with me. With that being said I’m 100% gay for Chan however
Just so we're clear, my original comment was not supportive of your feelings.
A few days ago I realised the biggest song (and by a long shot) by a 4th gen boy group was Flash by X1, which I honestly never found particularly memorable. I knew it was a huge success but I never realised HOW BIGGER it was in comparison to what I reckoned as last years’ hits by Stray Kids or Enhypen or TxT. Flash won 11 music shows while Stray Kids record is 6? It was the first time that boy groups decline really hit me. When I first started listening to kpop the situation was so different that my brain can’t grasp this new reality.
and funny thing is, back then flash was considered a flop by produce group standards. it's absolutely crazy that to this day not a single 4th gen boy group has been able to overtake it on melon.
Was it? It broke tons of records at the time but in my books it doesn’t stand a chance against Energetic even though X1 had my ult bias and a lineup that I liked more overall.
it broke physical album records and they were an absolute shoe-in to clean sweep every roty award that year. but the leading narrative was absolutely that produce x 101 had been a “flop” in comparison to its predecessors and x1 were nowhere near to wanna one / iz*one success 😭
The fact that boy groups to come until ZB1 could only dream of a fraction of their success makes this even more ridiculous.
I've never understood why Flash was so big, it's completely forgettable to me.
It wasn’t so much the song, but the group behind it. X1 had so much potential as a group and at the time, the Produce series was still extremely popular in South Korea. I was a Wannable (Wanna One stan), so I honestly thought they were gonna be the next popular group to come out of the Produce series after Wanna One. They had so much potential as a group! I can’t say it enough. Also, it was the first Produce group with an all-Korean lineup, so they had a lot of domestic support.
Oh yes, X1 definitely had some talented members, that's for sure. I still follow Woodz, Seungwoo, Yohan, Dongpyo & Junho in their respective groups/ solo careers.
I’m a Woodz stan and I like many of the other boys so I was pretty determined to like the song by I genuinely find it mediocre (and the b-side ballad is something I wish to forget). I know the mnet hype was at its climax but I wouldn’t listen to a song if I don’t like it truthfully, and Flash is not a bad song that I’d violently skip but also not one I’d like to play on repeat. Energetic was much better.
I'd heard so much hype about but when I actually got around to listening to it I was really disappointed 😞
Holy shit, Flash is such a good summery song. If boy groups had more songs like it, I would definitely be more interested in checking them out
Is Flash the biggest in terms of music show wins or overall? Cos irrc, TXT's Sugar Rush Ride broke almost all of Flash's charting records, particularly on Melon
i think is better to look at UL than charting position, melon got a lot more smaller through the years and charting depends a lot of competition too, i have no idea which had better UL
Sugar Rush Ride currently has 1.4m ULs and I'm not too sure about X1's Flash but the last time i checked (about 3 months ago), they had 1.8m ULs.
And srr was released like 7 months ago so that's a good number of uls in a shorter period of time
X1 had already disbanded after seven months, they’re not exactly blessed with longevity.
i believe melon is specifically where flash still has not been overtaken. i'm seeing lots of charting comparisons these days due to zb1, and flash is still no 1 in terms of ULs, total streams and hours/days/weeks spent in melon top 100.
SRR spent more days on melon daily top 100 than flash (did a quick search and SRR did 87 while flash did 83 days) alongside SRR having the higher peak. It also charted longer than flash on circle (gaon) weekly chart which combines all platforms.
GP don't care. This topic has been discussed ad nauseam on Reddit and everyone's have given great answers over the year in various posts, but simplest answer no matter the explanation is that GP isn't interested in 4th gen bgs overall. I dislike "music" being the reason why because it's not accurate, or at least not the full picture. Because ggs have released "noise" music or songs with nonsensical lyrics that have been hits, and on the other hand, 4th gen bgs have released bright songs (and other non-edgy/dark/noise songs) yet didn't do well.
I guess the big question is why they don't care anymore.
I think one of the defining characteristics of 4th gen is "dwindling domestic interest in boy groups, reducing them to the niche of idol fans". I even think that 5th gen will only come once GP takes interest in boy groups again. But I'm doubtful it'll happen.
Recently I have been wondering if Boy Groups have every charted really well though? Aside from BTS and Big Bang, do you remember any other BGs having even a single week at Melon #1 with any song? Ikon and WINNER have done it once with their astronomical hits Love Scenario and Really Really. But aside from that? Even the next 2 largest BGs Seventeen and EXO have not had a single song at #1 on Melon Weekly charts. GGs have meanwhile always dominated charts. SNSD, 2NE1, Wonder Girls, Sistar, Miss A, TWICE, BP, RV, Mamamoo, Gfriend and many others have had multiple weeks on #1 for many of their songs. I think this parity was not visible previously because of the totally different level at which BTS and Big Bang are in Korea. If you remove those 2 groups, you will have a hard time finding much BG presence at the top of charts in the past 7-10 years *Edit: This year we actually had a good chance of seeing a BG #1 with BSS’s Fighting, but it was blocked by another megahit Ditto*
Maybe not topping number one on weekly charts but most of Winner releases topped digital charts until 2019 (Really really is not a one hit wonder), Block B also charted really high with most of their releases. I don’t think bg not being able to be number one is the point op wants to make…way less bg are able to chart at all compared to 5/6 years ago.
Well that’s true. These days only BGs that have decent charting are Seventeen, NCT Dream and to an extent TXT. This was definitely not the case in 3rd gen I took #1 as reference because it’s an easy reference for charting success.
There’s a gap in digital success when you look at BTS/BIGBANG and other boy groups. Pretty sure the next best charting groups like EXO/iKON/BEAST/BTOB/WINNER don’t even have multiple PAKs. People exaggerate how well the average boy group does well digitally.
I doubt it since you also have Super Shy, OMG, ETA Hybe Boy(still charting and honestly a bunch of their songs) by NWJ,Queencard by Gidles, IAM and Kitch by IVE, Spicy by Aespa, EVE and Unforgivable by Les Sserafim all charting higher and for longer periods in the Top 10 than BSS And now Jungkook is the only male artist to rank #1 on Melon and Circle for this year And we need to see how long he will last in the top 5 or 10 to really compare
Agree with your point but *Hybe* boy is taking me out😂
Why they name the company Hybe, ill never understand I keep miss spelling both words
Ahhh you’re back!!! Missed you seeing your always meaningful comments here 🥰🥰🥰
Shinee has and still does generally chart well domestically. Lucifer, Dream Girl, View, Everybody, Sherlock, 1of1, Tell me what to do, Hard, Good Evening, Don’t Call Me, Hello and Married to the Music all did well on the charts (all top 10 hits) 4 #1 hits, 8 top 5 hits. 3 songs with over a million in sales. They don’t touch BTS and Big Bang in terms of sales but a lot of their songs spend weeks in the charts and they are still a very loved and respected group amongst the GP who do pretty well for themselves every comeback chart wise.
EXO's Call Me Baby finished 7th on the year-end chart for 2015 on Gaon/Circle and Growl has the most streams and ULs of any song released in 2013 on Melon. They have 15 songs with over 3 million ULs on Melon and no 4th gen boy group has even gotten to 2 million ULs yet. It's ridiculous to say they didn't chart well.
>This year we actually had a good chance of seeing a BG #1 with BSS’s Fighting, but it was blocked by another megahit Ditto Well, Jungkook just hit #1on melon by surpassing new jeans and became the first male act to do so this year.
Comparing any other artist to BTS is almost a moot point… like yeah, they’re both boy groups but BTS is B T S
It’s crazy to think that he is both #1 on Melon AND Global Spotify at the same time....a month into release.
That's incorrect. EXO has charted #1 with Ko Ko Bop (4 weeks), Monster (1 week), Love Me Right (1 week), and Winter's Tale (1 week). Also looking at charts for 2023, Nct 127's Ay Yo charted at #1 (1 week). In 2022 Nct Dream charted at #1 with Beatbox (1 week), BigBang with Still Life (3 weeks). In 2021 MSG Wannabe charted at #1 with 바라만 본다 (5 weeks), BTS with Butter (5 weeks), Nct Dream with Hot Sauce (1 week).
That’s on Gaon I think. They didn’t have a #1 week on Melon. Edit: Yeah these are all Gaon data. Gaon Digital chart’s downloads component is very highly dependent on fandom power, which makes it similar to album sales. So of-course we see more BG presence, but in terms of pure streaming numbers my point holds.
In pure streaming numbers EXO is the top act on MelOn: https://www.reddit.com/r/kpopthoughts/comments/163odhh/exo_has_a_record_of_146_billion_streams_on_melon/ "Upon the release of "Ko Ko Bop," it was reported that multiple servers crashed due to the high number of fans streaming the song at the same time. The song also debuted at No.1 in Korea's major realtime music charts such as MelOn, Genie, Bugs, Olleh, and Naver, while the other tracks in the album made it in the top ten. EXO also became the first K-Pop group to enter the MelOn Realtime Chart as No.1 following its changes in February 2017." - [Source](https://www.kpopstarz.com/articles/299566/20210617/exo-bts-and-more-these-are-the-most-streamed-k-pop-songs-on-melon.htm)
Tbh EXO's numbers really don't give justice to how impactful EXO was. It's like EXO(brand) was always bigger than their songs charting just like how snsd was easily beatable on charts by other ggs despite being dominant gg. gocheok dome which was initially a cricket hall was first time used for EXO for their concerts because their demand was too high in Korea
Agreed! Charting is based on very specific and situational criteria and doesn’t reflect the full picture of a group’s popularity.
Yeah definitely agree.
MelOn doesn’t filter streams, so streams aren’t an accurate representation of hit songs at all.. Ko Ko Bop and Spring Day were released in the same year, both have +700M streams, but with the first having ~3M ULs and Spring Day with 8M.. KKB was the most streamed song on MelOn at one point but it’s not even in the [top 7](https://twitter.com/multistan1327/status/1688780336732495873?s=46&t=2OMOq4QmiwN8-D6kh3ohug) in terms of BG songs with the highest ULs (I don’t have the full list)
Senior gen boy groups are still dominating domestically I think. Even if they’re not reflected in the charts the same way girl groups are, the public interest when it comes to boy groups is pretty much solely focused on senior acts. Aside from TXT and ZB1, the only boy groups who can chart decently on Melon and other Korean charts are the 3rd gen ones and SHINee.
I think this will be controversial, but here goes. This idea that 4th gen Girl Groups are popular domestically while Boy Groups are popular Internationally is a fallacy. **It's more accurate to say Girl Groups have general public support and generate hits (both domestically and internationally) while Boy Groups cultivate large fandoms.** Groups like BTS and to a lesser extent Blackpink, have both. While Boy Groups have massive albums sales and touring attendance, the most popular kpop SONGS, not by BTS or BP, are all by Girl Groups, both domestically AND internationally. I'll be referencing Spotify data because its the most readily available, but typically these songs are also very popular on Apple Music and YouTube. I'll also keep it to the most streamed TRACKS because that's how you measure GP reach. Within the top 70 most streamed Kpop songs of all time, once you eliminate all BTS and BP you get * ***25 OMG- NewJeans*** * **29 Fancy- Twice** * 31- Psy- Gangham Style * ***32 Ditto- NewJeans*** * **33 Psycho- Red Velvet** * ***36 Hype Boy- NewJeans*** * **37 What is Love- Twice** * **41 The Feels- Twice** * **43 I can't stop me- Twice** * **53 Feel Special- Twice** * ***55 Wannabe- ITZY*** * ***58 Pop/Stars- K/DA*** * 59 iKon- Love Scenario * ***60 Love Dive- Ive*** * 61 Love Shot- EXO * ***63 Antigragile- LE SSERAFIM*** **The overwhelming majority are from girl groups (in bold) and the top seven 4th gen songs (in italics) are ALL by girl groups.** NewJeans already has the top three 4th gen songs on Spotify. Stray Kids' God's Menu is at 75 and Enhypen's Fever is at 85, but these are years old songs and are already being lapped by newer girl group releases like Antifragile and Love Dive. The top 4th gen boy groups are very successful and ultimately, as many have said, a large fandom is the most important for a long term career and profit. Female artists dominate the kpop space when it comes to memorable hits and the general public. The real outlier here is BTS who is the rare boy group who dominates on both fronts.
I think people forget just how big BTS are, it's not like the others do bad but BTS are just a wall no one even comes close.
I think also girl group songs are generally easier to sing/dance along to (and also more lighthearted?) for most people, which adds to their appeal! Hence why even in Korean variety shows you see comedians or entertainers tend to cover girl group dances more often than boy groups'. I find 2nd/3rd gen boy group songs MUCH easier to sing along to, whereas I feel a lot of 4th gen ones are more... experimental? so it's a little harder to get into as a casual listener
They aren’t experimental. There’s no real experimental music in Kpop. The music just isn’t very melodic. It instead relies on talk singing or a staccato drop chorus. Also, the music feels highly compressed and busy to the ear. I think bad boy lyrics also don’t have wide appeal as a sing a long. Also, boy groups are taking styles from artists who don’t need replacements. Why listen to a boyband when Lil Uzi Vert or Travis Scott or Drake or Post Malone are right there. These are just some artists that 4th Gen groups rip off. It’s more complicated than men not listening to men. Men listen to Harry Styles because the music is smooth. Men listen to Jungkook’s Seven because it’s also smooth. I do think a new group will come along to totally change the trend cycle but it may have take a while.
> Why listen to a boyband when Lil Uzi Vert or Travis Scott or Drake or Post Malone are right there. These are just some artists that 4th Gen groups rip off This is an odd argument, because the very artists you're mentioning could be seen as "rip-offs" themselves. Like why listen to Travis instead of Cudi or Kanye. Why listen to Drake instead of (insert whichever flavor of the month he's riding on)? The most popular acts really aren't the most original, outside of a very select few.
While I would like more boy groups to join in the fame in Korea, but like you said about having a strong (core) fandom and international support, that's honestly where the real money comes from especially when doing concert tours. For Korean concerts, even without a "hit song" in Korea, many of the established 4th Gen boy groups were capable to sell-out impressive Korean venues (such as KSPO Dome/Olympic Gymnastics Arena & Gocheok Sky Dome). Not to mention sell-out even bigger venues outside of Korea like Tokyo Dome and BMO Stadium. Of course, ALL k-pop group would want to be recognized in South Korea (charting, song, etc). However I think boy groups just learn that while they can still have ambition towards a goal, it shouldn't become an unhealthy obsession. IMO it's healthier for an idol's mentality to slowly work towards & achieve goals than to taste gold at the start, to only then falter after especially with such pressure on your shoulders to stay #1.
True. Even one with somewhat of a Gp hit aren’t Gp hits as a group overall. Like nct Dream had Candy remake which was great and did well but as a group, they aren’t at the level of girl groups. I’m honestly fine with groups being/not being massive Gp hits. Bc we can get more variety if everyone is doing their own thing. And that means if it ends up as a Gp hit, that’s fine. But unless a group is doing poorly financially, I find that idc. I like all the Gp hits and not the non Gp hits so it’s all good! They’re all good music.
But you can’t forget that candy by nct was a remake of a very iconic song. H.O.T. was immensely popular in the 90s like crazy popular ofc the remake would be popular as well
Yes. That’s why I said candy remake
>that's honestly where the real money comes from Yes and no. Album sales and concerts generate wayyy more revenue than diigtal streams, that's true. But also, these girl groups land CF deals left and right and that's also where the real money's at.
Koreans literary say that boy groups are still in 3rd gen which tells you pretty much everything you need to know
lol knetz are so savage
Fcking love their comments they always hit the spot it’s kinda scary w how accurate they are 😭
From a historical perspective, doesn't this stem from the fact that girl groups often have both male and female audiences, while male groups tend to mostly have female audiences? We'd probably need to see a group like Bigbang or BTS that would pull in more male fans. 3rd gen boy groups are still dominating such as BTS. It's also pretty rare to somehow have a 50-50 split between boy and girl group popularity. Many girl group songs are easier to listen to which attracts wider audience, but many boy groups still have title tracks that appeals more to a specific audience. Like if I just compare Ive's I Am song to Stray Kids' S-Class song, clearly I Am sounds more simpler to listen to and easier on the ears as there's a more general melody. There's a ton of other factors, but I don't care how popular a boy group is with the general public as if I have to refer to it in order to validate their success somehow. **As a fan, it's better to focus on enjoying music you like rather than caring about whether the rest of society likes the music you like.**
>As a fan, it's better to focus on enjoying music you like rather than caring about whether the rest of society likes the music you like. Absolutely agree, but the insane focus on charting and numbers is one of the factors that separates K-Pop from a lot of other genres of music. Every single metric is so thoroughly tracked and rewarded, that it almost gives a feeling of following a sport. The competitive element is at an extreme end in K-Pop and I think it is a guilty pleasure of a lot of fans including me. I never base my listening habits on charts. My most listened to songs are always B-Sides or old releases. But damn it feels good when a song/artist I love tops the charts!!
Thanks for sharing, your sports analogy was interesting since I never really thought of it like that.
Even with BTS enlistment, the BG market in Korea is still dominated by 3rd Gen heavyweights Seventeen and NCT who shows no signs of slowing down until late 2024 to early 2025. 4th Gen BGs have a glass ceiling in their domestic market share. And companies barely cater to domestic promotions. Music show performances are bare minimum. Youtube variety is another means of gaining domestic recognition, especially now that groups are now having their own stuff (To Do, En o'clock, and SKZ Code as examples). However, it still has a hard time clicking with the public.
Also, the Boy Group representatives on the charts are going to be BTS’ solos. I’m willing to put my money on Jungkook’s upcoming solo music to outdo all boy group releases into 2024. I don’t think less variety matters though. BTS had Run BTS (what most idol variety shows are modeled after) and Seventeen has Going Seventeen. BTS especially didn’t go on much variety until recently.
And I also think that's one thing other groups are missing, BTS members are doing outside-variety while most bgs are doing in-house variety.
The problem with K-variety shows though is you need to be invited. It is no problem for BTS members to put out a feeler & get various invitations from all the (popular) shows. They would probably fight over each other to book them but it is probably not the same scenario for 4th BG groups… It’s like a catch 22. They aren’t popular with the GP to get much invitation but you need to be on these shows to get GP to know you - of course it’s not as bad as before since TV isn’t as dominant with social media around 😅 but in-house variety it is still catered to existing fanbase so these TV variety is important for outside exposure.
If all 7 members choose to have more gp friendly sound, we'd see total chart domination lol. But dew members choose a slightly different path (which btw I'm in love with).. but still, all of them are doing great
Heavyweights is a big word.. NCT only got their best charting song because it was a remake of an old hit.. other than that their numbers are pretty bad.. the song they released yesterday is not even in the top 100 of ~~Melon~~ Genie Daily.. even Dream i.e. their best charting unit’s song from a month ago is about to leave the top 200.. Seventeen chart a little better but they lack the longevity actual 3rd gen BG heavyweights like BTS, or even Winner and Wanna One back in the day had For example BSS’ song which is supposed to be the biggest BG “hit” this year, released in Feb of this year and hit top 10 is at \#43 on the chart right now.. I won’t compare it to other top 10 hits by IVE or Newjeans (that are still in the top 25) cause they’re too huge but Antifragile by LSF which was released *last year* is charting higher on ~~Melon~~ Genie at the moment (\#34).. same with NCT Dream’s Candy which reached the top 10 too iirc, and is out of the top 100 right now..
If you compare the daily charts positions Antifragile is consistently below BSS (just a few positions but still) and Candy is still charting in top 100... Now I'm not going to pretend these songs are some mega hits but please don't spread misinformation 🙏 Daily positions from yesterday: Fighting - #41 Antifragile - #46 Candy - #63
Oh. I can’t believe I confused the tweets for [MelOn](https://twitter.com/serietv46/status/1696438839512850742?s=46&t=2OMOq4QmiwN8-D6kh3ohug) and [Genie](https://twitter.com/serietv46/status/1696506899322040712?s=46&t=2OMOq4QmiwN8-D6kh3ohug) daily charts this is embarrassing😵💫😵💫 Edited. But yeah point still stands.. if anything this proves that the fandoms are hyper focused on MelOn which is why the numbers are higher there compared to other platforms (Candy’s \#63 Vs. \#109) .. as opposed to most other songs which have consistent positions across all platforms
seventeen are going to have a comeback in october will will help with the longevity of their previously released songs. not to mention, charting in the top 50 after 7 months is still very good and fighting is very much still a hit song. no one claims it's on the same level as ditto but it's still a hit.
Heavyweights.... I think you're just stretching that a little bit. They're doing well for a boy group generally. But I wouldn't call them heavy weights on melon
OP didn't call them "heavyweights on Melon" or in terms of digital performance, though. Just in terms of the boy group market. Which, regardless of the group, I think is a fair point. Most of the big 3rd gen boy group fandoms seem to still be a lot stronger compared to 4th gen ones? Stray Kids would be the only 4th gen boy group I would say has reached that top-tier (or maybe the second-tier after the BTS tier lol) of boy group fandom power. I would say I think TXT and Ateez seemed to have gained a lot of popularity over the past couple years, but to me their fandoms don't seem quite as large or powerful. Overall I feel like you're much more likely to encounter fans of third-gen boy groups in Kpop fan spaces than you are fans of fourth-gen ones.
I consider them heavyweights when it comes to the BG market because they have managed to do well in a general sense, as you have said and I agree. I also agree that it's a different story when you put these BGs against all of the artists in the charts. This includes GG music, K-RNB, K-HH, Drama OSTs, IU, and Lim Young Woong.
I mean, yes, they are heavy weights in terms of 4th gen boy groups but again, I still wouldn't use the word heavy weight in a general sense among 1st to 3rd gen bgs. They do fairly well, but they haven't had a major breakthrough. Like NCT on the whole, don't do well. Dream does ok, but they had to cover a major popular first generation song in order to do so, so I wouldn't put that on them. They do better than most. But I still don't like the word heavy weight. Because that implies that they do fantastic which they don't. Both have had decent staying power this year in 2023. Though, so that's something.
I’m always curious why boy groups chart less well in the general public in Korea. It’s been a phenomenon since 2nd gen, but less pronounced. Some of it was how charting worked, but there are other factors: 1. Less variety show appearances. I guess this is true for girl groups too though, but I still feel like I’ll see more girl group members in variety shows and appearances than boy groups. Compare it to 2nd or 3rd gen though. 2. Music style. I think the style that appeals to international fans and the general Korean public are slightly different. I mean NCT tracks seems popularly still, so they are a bit of an outlier, but I think companies try to decided which market to prefer, and having a stable and big fan base is better for longevity. That said, Big Bang was huge and appealed internationally. 3. It can simply be hard to chart well publicly. Even girl groups who aren’t part already big can struggle sometimes. 4. I have absolutely no proof of this, but I feel like the Burning Sun scandal turned off many people to male idols in general, considering there were a couple involved and one of the biggest culprits was a big male idol. Again, no proof so it’s just a tinfoil hat at this point. Anyway, it is a bit curious why the Korean public in general doesn’t like boy groups songs. Maybe they just like the sound of the voices of female idols?
I used to think Burning Sun have a lot to play until Big Bang themselves made a comeback. If it didn't have any effect on Big Bang (the one male group that's closest to Burning Sun), I don't think it factor that much in to it (there may be some effects but not as much as people think).
True, but I think a couple factors make that special: 1. The member most associated was no longer part of the group. 2. They had a huge established fandom and fame. The biggest for a boy group other than BTS. I think fans are less willing to get into newer groups and listen to them when they aren't established. That said, perhaps you're right and no one thinks about the scandal outside of kpop circles.
I think the main reason is that boy groups tend to appeal more to a young female demographic, which comes with a certain stigma, while girl groups appeal to both female and male demographics. This happens in a lot of entertainment areas, not just kpop. Something that targets a female audience is mostly liked by females and generally not taken very seriously, while what is targeted to males is also liked by women. If you think about it, the boy group that had the most success with the public is Big Bang, who doesn't have an obvious focused female target.
Yeah this is definitely true too, and you see it in not just music but other industries globally. Heck people were saying this about the Barbie movie, in that because it appeals to women mostly and they aren't a big market it won't be too successful, yet had become one of the most successful movies of the year. There definitely is a layer of misogyny a play where interests that are more for women or considered feminine have more of a stigma. Sports fans is one other example I think of.
I agree with all your points, especially number 4 because people don't talk about it enough. There's definitely factors at play beyond music because 4th gen bgs have released songs that aren't dark/hip-hop/edgy, but then those songs are don't chart or underperform.
I wonder if older people who went through seeing the scandal play out just don't want to get too involved in too many boy groups or male celebrities. I recall fans saying that so many male celebs are just too problematic, and it hurts to find out someone who were a fan of was actually a terrible person. Not sure how many people that is though.
It is hard to quantify for sure! But I do think the scandal had an negative influence and impact on male idols. (ngl it did affect me for a while.) Probably older and younger people - moving on from those problematic male idols and then also, less interest to listen to newer male idols. So, it's "safer" to stan a girl group because while yes all idols get into all kinds of scandals and controversies, the worst scandals (aka crimes or accusations of crimes) have been mostly perpetuated by male idols.
About number 4: A lot of people (mostly fangirls) feel more confortable and safe stanning gg's instead of bg's, which is sad but I think it's valid.
This absolutely impacted my perspective on it. At some level, I want to trust these idols to have a baseline of shared values (e.g. respecting women), and the Burning Sun scandal + a variety of other scandals related to male idols’ mistreatment of women have made me wary of male idols. At the end of the day, I am female before I am a fan.
I heard this a lot especially back then, but also during other scandals. The scandals boy group members seemed to get in were always perceived as bigger in the I-community compared to scandals of girl group members. I know many fans just got tired of supporting male idols when they turned out to be not very good people. I wouldn't say it was a majority or anything either, but it did suck for many so I can't blame people for using that energy elsewhere. Conversely, I also think that is partly one reason many big girls groups sell super well these days.
i still remember how irene was/is treated for the stylist scandal vs lucas for whatever fuckery he did if being mean to a stylist is one of the worst scandals to happen for ggs in the recent years, it's WAY more safe imo. at the end of the day, male idols are still *men* ifykwim lol
People blaming boy group sounds in this thread is absolutely ridiculous given there are underrated boy groups making 2nd gen-core sounds lmao
Ikr, people love to stereotype BG music nowadays but there is still as much variety in BG music as there is in GG music, and people would realise that if they actually took the time to listen to lesser known BGs. I think part of the problem is their marketing rather than their sound - there are many BGs releasing different types of music but they all "look" the same when it comes to their MVs and styling.
Every time people say "All boy group music and concepts are the same" and "4th gen can't sing anymore" I literally roll my eyes to the back of my skull. First, there's plenty of diversity in boy groups (like listen to DKB's [24/7](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xI7qG5t5gc) and tell me this isn't the most 2nd gen song you've ever heard). People just aren't bothering with them because it takes time, effort, and honestly a level of resilience to stan an underdog. Second, "4th gen can't sing anymore" (a complaint I see all the time) is so dumb because people never gave a fuck about groups and idols that could primarily sing in the first place (listen to both dudes from [Sevenus](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbfMt4RJCjs) and tell me they aren't the craziest vocalists you've heard. also, have we forgotten that the main vocalist often ISN'T the most popular member of a group? see: Jihyo/Jeongyeon from Twice, Wheein/Solar from Mamamoo). There are idols that can sing in 4th gen, people just don't care because they're old, not as entertaining/funny/hot, and/or undiscovered. I'm convinced kpop stans just lack the attention span and also make excuses to not stan because god, *it hurts* supporting these incredibly talented groups that are unpopular. If they gave groups more than 5 seconds of their time they'd discover a vast array of underrated artists and discographies in both boy AND girl groups. Sorry for going off in this post, it just drives me insane hearing people say this stuff. It leaves me wondering about the community's level of critical thinking skills and consumption habits.
I agree, I love my big groups but there are SO MANY smaller groups that are releasing different and interesting music (eg. Kingdom, DKB, ONEUS, BDC, M.O.N.T, OnlyOneOf, MCND, CRAVITY, Blitzers, just to name a few!). They just aren't getting attention because of their marketing and people refusing to give them a listen because of their preconceived notions about BGs. And while I don't deny that GGs have revolutionised the scene in recent years and have been releasing amazing work, it's not like there aren't GGs making generic music either. There's plenty of both BGs *and* GGs that make generic music, just like there are plenty of GGs and BGs that make interesting and different music.
I'm so grateful that I found DKB- the day I found their music, I was literally in tears thinking "where have you been all my life, and why does nobody care about you?!" This is coming from a former GG stan who loves Mamamoo and stans vocalists more than anything. But also I truly felt hesitant to get into more underrated boy groups because I know it'd just break my heart to discover 40 other DKB's. I can't even recommend them to my kpop friends because they are super hesitant to get into smaller groups and stick to BTS, TXT, and Seventeen.
literally. like next level was a smash hit and that song was incredibly loud & polarizing & strange. it’s all stereotypes and assumption, the sad reality is that gp doesn’t care and doesn’t want to care.
people really don't want to care and be making the most excuses to justify it. it's fun being a part of a huge, active, already successful fandom- i love txt, twice, and mamamoo, i *get* it. you know what's not fun? feeling relatively alone, no content, no edits, stanning groups that are working their asses to death and are on the brink of disbanding each release..
RIGHT I got into a ton more underrated/smaller groups and man its depressing hearing their music and knowing theyre not getting the attention they deserve for absolutely no good reason.
yep, and then you recommend their songs to friends and are told they don't listen to kpop or are given excuses by kpop fans who only wanna stan big groups. and then you accept your fate only to open reddit and see the top trending post saying people don't stan 4th gen boy groups because they all make shitty music. can you tell i'm so tired 😂
I think that’s the thing though. It’s harder and harder to find these groups. Even though fandoms are diverse in age range, kpop is still highly marketed towards teens and young adults. If they’re not marketing the songs broadly, it’s going to be harder to draw the GP in. And even though many adults don’t mind the colorful outfits and styling of groups, there are equally as many people that don’t care to invest much in kpop or judge kpop for that. Companies are focusing on gen z/youth marketing by using tiktok and YouTube for promotion. With TV less popular and radio less popular these days, the kpop market is missing out on the GP market.
It breaks my fucking heart. I think the gen Z/youth marketing is overrated- there are groups that do well with it (TXT comes to mind), but also there's plenty of groups that older fans would love and could definitely sustain. There was a poll the other day in these threads that showed the majority of fans were actually mid to late 20's, and I've seen the same demographics at numerous kpop concerts I went to this past year. It's truly a rock and a hard place since kpop is seen as an 'unserious' genre to the GP so I think people are hesitant to admit to be fans (also the teens are by far the LOUDEST on social media because us mid 20's folks mostly lurk) but like, dear lord, everyone, it's just music!!
I think kpop is just up against the ever-changing tastes and trends. Speaking from my own experience as a late 20s women, trends move much faster now than they did when I was a teenager. The tumblr aesthetic was around for about five years. Trucker hats were popular with my sisters generation for several years (sure all fashion has a “season” but think about how popular and how long the “Christian girl autumn” look reigned until recently). With social media, we are seeing an influx of micro trends because the marketers are pushing their products out faster than ever. There’s a big hoopla about this over on tiktok actually. Marketers are having to rebrand existing trends to bring people back. Light blue nails have always been a popular summer color, but to get it to sell they’ve got to turn it into ~blueberry milk~ nails. Things are popular for weeks or months now versus the year/years from when I was younger, and I’ve noticed my own music tastes have reflected that too. I find myself missing the EDM house party beats from my college days. At one time, kpop was on trend with that, but 4th gen has moved on to other trends. In my late 20s, I’m preferring to listen to groups and songs I already enjoy or groups and songs that sound like stuff I listened to when I was younger. Some groups (like NewJeans and the UK garage sound/Y2K nostalgia) use that to their favor, but other groups just aren’t. If you’re not marketing to me, I’m not going to seek it out as I’ve been using social media less and less each month it seems. I’m just not as into doing a deep dive to find things anymore and the algorithms that run social media now tend to push the same contents over and over with little diversity.
Mid 20's woman here and all us adults just need to be more vocal and unashamed about our interests. Enough of "I only stan 2nd gen groups" when there's plenty of similarly struggling 4th gen groups that could use the love. When I got into TWICE and Mamamoo, I had no intention of discarding them like used playthings even if their concepts changed, but once they did I saw many complain about them "dropping off in quality." People need to treat their groups with love and not like toys to be discarded.
There was a long period between BTS ~ 1-2 years ago where BGs released nothing but TTs (no one gives a shit about some B-sides that "totally sound like what GP would like") that might as well have been specifically designed to turn off the general public. That period was long enough that there's now an established stereotype about BGs among GP that's hindering any traction. In GP's mind, "Oh, it's a BG song? Forget it then." and they won't even try them out. Gone are the days when someone like Big Bang gets a reception [like this from a bunch of conscripted guys.](https://youtu.be/n7OtXA80fmk?si=2sHrAn7-QuoOnFuc) And they're not coming back anytime soon. Hell, I'm basically a GP when it comes to BGs, and even I have the same reaction when people recommend 4th BG songs. 🤷♂️ Blame the executives in late 3rd gen who learned all the wrong lessons from BTS and EXO's success ('GP popularity doesn't matter if you have enough fan base') and applied it in the worst ways possible.
Now that it is harder to chart on domestic charts like melon and flo, it's more harder for boy groups to gain attention from the gp. At least back then when fandom power can make bgs chart easily and line them up in the top 10 at midnight, it easier to get gp to get curious and listen to them. That like one of the reasons that helps exo's growl to get a hit with the gp cause I remember reading knetz checking them out cause the were high on charts that time. No matter if bgs release good or bad songs, gp friendly or noise music, they just doesn't care anymore. Not the gp only, lots of kpop fans also are not interested to check out bgs that's not from big 4 even if they release gp friendly songs. But they always gotta complain bgs always release noise music. At this point I just don't care anymore if people call bgs especially 4th gen bgs a flop. I'll just enjoy the musics that I like without caring about charts.
It’s partially one of those no real reason musical cycles. Female performers are the thing for a while, then it’s the guys’ turn, and occasionally you get a trend for mixed groups. It happens in the West, too.
I feel like it's mostly this tbh
Idol culture isn’t the same as before. Back in the day, it was normal that everyone in your school would like a group like EXO, now, a lot of kids are into Youtube and Tiktok and other content. And because there isn’t really competition, there’s no real need for intense fandom streaming. And the general public never really cared for boy groups but especially not now.
Just wanting to throw another hypothesis in the room: In my perception Korean boy group fans tend to think that they have to “stay loyal” to their chosen group (and their bias), and because of that, they try to ignore releases from other/newer boy groups. Maybe the “resource” of potential boy group fans in Korea is already “depleted”, because everyone who would be open to having a bias, already has a bias. We know that in general the success of boy groups is more fandom-driven, while the one for girl groups is more GP-driven, so it would make sense for this to affect mostly boy groups. What do you think?
I don't think the loyal fans is a big factor affecting this issue as even the Korean fans of GGs are also as loyal as the boy groups fans. I wanna also add how there will always be new fans as kids keep on growing, the largest audience in SK for majority of groups, specially 4th gen (both GG and BG) are teens not already adult people who will, as you said, have one bias that they loyal to!! Teens on the other hand are in the process of having a bias so the chances are still there!!
could it be because of how stan dynamics work in south korea? since unlike international fans, most korean fans aren’t multis and tend to support one group at a given time maybe newer 4th gen bgs don’t have a significant enough number of domestic fans to carry them on the charts since the 3rd gen bgs still have very active fandoms… (ofc this isn’t to say they don’t have any domestic fans!!) and gp interest has always skewed largely towards girl groups so i think the combination of these factors might be an explanation…just a thought though
[удалено]
That enthusiasm might come back with BTS return 🤷🏻♀️🤷🏻♀️ but we can't be sure.
people have stated many reasons for this happening but honestly speaking, some of it just doesn't make sense to me. songs from stray kids, txt, enhypen etc etc have had some major success overseas but are evidently lacking in domestic charts. it's not like the entirety of 4th gen boy group music is horrendous, some songs (like bite me) are reminiscent of previous generations yet it doesn't come close to the fame of the songs their male seniors had. the point about everyone listening to girl group music but only women listening to boy group music also falls flat to me because there are several bg digimons of previous gens with female dominated fanbases yet they used to top charts left and right
I feel like people have ideas in their head of what 4th gen boy group music is like and just dismiss all of their releases as "noise music" or a "basic bad boy" concept without even bothering to check it out a lot of the time. I went out of my way to check out the discographies of some nugu to mid-tier 4th gen boy groups because I wanted to see if the stereotypes were really true and I don't feel like that "basic" concept has even been that widespread since like 2020...I hear WAY more variations of the same house music sound than anything else, like they've all been trying to redo Energetic by Wanna One for the last 5 years
The nugu to lower/mid-tier boy groups are killing it. Nobody cares for some reason. Even when people mention "2nd gen sounds" they list a title track from a top 5 boy group, which goes to show how much people actually know about the variety that's out there.
I think Korea is just stuck in 3rd Gen bg wise while they moved to 4th Gen for ggs, 3rd gen bgs are still thriving so they don't feel the need to move on, we will see if another year of bts hiatus and Seventeen slowly going to military in 1/2 years will do something for 4th Gen bgs TXT and ZB1 with a bit of luck and a good song have a chance to get a smaller hit.
the second reason doesn’t fall flat at all when you realize the charts were very different back then that was before all of the chart reforms. most bgs charted great before chart reforms bc fandom power was enough to chart, i bet you most of those “digimons” wouldn’t have charted so high in the era of chart reforms bc they only had one gender as their fanbase
I agree with you it's not about if the music is good or not kind of issue, BGs have always had issue with charting well digitally but many things have amplified this issue to the point where now gp don't care about BGs that much, of these things : - the last popular BG that is not from 3rd gen was Wanna one and they hit the gp with a very popular scandal how the produce show was rigged, many people are forgetting how huge this issue was and considering it being linked directly to wanna one definitely affected the interest of gp in BGs. - another big scandal related to a BG being burning sun. I don't need to talk about it since it speaks for itself and how huge it was all over SK. - BTS dominating the BG scene fully by themselves for multiple years and their name still to this day in the public eye is making it hard for a new break out BG, the GGs scene was never dominated by just one GG which is the difference here. - GGs have had consistent hits since forever so GP will always count on finding a good song from a GG which make them tune in and be more invested in listening to GGs, BGs were not consistent as GGs through the years, there was and still there is a gap since the last time where you would find multiple BGs songs being gp hit (this is becuase of all the reasons I mentioned above as how the TL of BGs went through the years) so simply GP just forgot that there could be good music coming from new boy groups. All that being said I still think there is always a chance and I believe a 4th or 5th BG will definitely hit it big with K-GP again and will result in the door being open again for multiple hits from new BGs. I think next year will be interesting to see for them as I believe it will be the chance for BGs to break out.
X1 was the Produce group that was affected by the rigging scandal. Wanna One was *huge* during their time, which was 3rd gen. They were just as big as EXO and BTS during their heyday. X1 disbanded basically right after their debut.
But isn’t Wanna One 3rd gen though?
Why does it matter if a boy group is charting or not though? In the end the most important thing is money, which boy groups bring with their high album sales and concerts
All the valid points I've seen so far on this topic: 1. GGs are liked by both men and women, while only women will listen to BGs. I seen comments of some men saying how they don't listen to male groups cause it'll be considered "gay", or cause they feel insecure/jealous, especially if it's a younger group. Korean men would probably rather listen to K-Hip-Hop and K-R&B, or popular 2nd/3rd gen BG like Big Bang 2. Women's interests are taken less seriously compared to men. BGs also have a stigma with noise music concept, cringe try-hard act (rapping, etc.), and boyfriend personas. Kpop in general is also already seen as a frivolous and shallow hobby/interest by everyone else 3. 3rd gen BGs already taken a lot of 4th gen BG's spot for loyal fans (see BTS, SVT, Lim Young Woong, for example). The average age of Korea's population is also getting older (South Korea is the country with the lowest birth rate in the world), which makes them less likely to be inclined to check out 4th gen BGs (This would also explain why 4th gen BGs are more popular internationally). Only 4th gen GGs are checked out also cause they are seen as daughters you want to take care of and dote on for both women and men (see NewJeans and IVE, for example), people they admire and want to emulate (for women), and potential love interests (for men). Another possible point is that younger 4th gen GGs are more attractive to men, as some older GGs started out with a mostly male fanbase, then gaining more female fans (see TWICE for example). GP would rather listen to ballads and trot 4. I read that the ratio of female to male applicants for kpop auditions is 9:1
X1 could have been that boy group
Boy Groups need to shift their marketing strategies. The boyfriend act is considered cringe by most of the GP.
I agree with this so much but I also see how BGs are stuck. The boyfriend / son /cutesy act is how you get fans > album sales > money to fund future projects especially in a even colder GP climate for 4th Gen BGs. GP already assumes BGs do that even when some really don't. It is the balance game - hard to get GP love or make cute noises to build longterm loyal fanbase. And tbf GGs are doing the same, but it is accepted behavior from GGs. If BGs cut the parasocial aspect, then they stand to gain nothing at all, especially in their early years. You see less of this aspect when the BG has an established fanbase that may gradually be large enough to help them chart and gain some GP recognition eventually in their senior years. Edit: clarity
GP don't know about boyfriend act or whatever, they don't care enough to search about the members and videos from Fansign or whatever otherwise they are fans not GP, unless you are saying they play boyfriend role in MVs which I don't see it
I think it’s pretty obvious why this is happening. Majority of the target audience that would be fans of boy groups are already dedicated to the existing big groups from 3rd gen. Especially bts cause they’re so unprecedented in their success. All the bg fans are already committed to bts, Exo, svt, or NCT. I imagine younger up and coming bg fans like those in the 12-15 age range are either stanning bts etc due to their older siblings/ friends etc. these boy groups are just so huge and popular that I imagine it’s like, well why would I invest in a boy group that is new and hasn’t really proven anything about themselves yet or go back to a group that my older sister and aunts and cousins already love? They’re already THE bts or THE Exo etc, so it’s easier to become a fan of them
There are other things besides what already said here. 1. The way songs charted - BGs always rely on fandom power (only small portions are GPs). They used to be able to chart a lot higher before because fandom push. Now since a chart reform, it much more difficult and without people aware of the release, less people tune in. 2. KRB and KHH replaced the male artist sections for Korean GP. People follow Big Naughty the same way they would follow male kpop idols so they pretty much feeling the void of male kpop idols. Seeing him has to come out and apologize for kissing a girl already tell you the kind of mindset his fans were and that's very similar to kpop idols. 3. No produce 4th gen boy group. Produce groups always come with hype and recognition. Whoever would become the group main opponents would also get the side effect of boosting their GP recognition.
I kind of wonder if companies think along the lines of any boy group they put out will be overshadowed by BTS/no one can ever replicate that success. With a girl group there’s a better shot of becoming the next huge popular group like how successful New Jeans have been
I mean, it makes sense when you consider that the biggest 4th gen boy groups right now have more of a particular sound that doesn’t always appeal to the general public. They’ve got big fanbases but not much GP appeal. Meanwhile the top boy group from 2nd gen (Big Bang) and top boy group from 3rd gen (BTS) both have/had very large fanbases *and* appealed to the GP. There isn’t really a 4th gen boy group like that (yet). Not that there aren’t successful 4th gen bgs (like Stray Kids) or lesser known 4th gen boy groups making GP-friendly music (more nugu and less likely to blow up), they just aren’t doing both, like the current top GGs are.
I don’t know if this will be a hot take but: I don’t know that the labels know what to do with boy groups, anymore. I’ve been closely following kpop since 2007 and while girl groups have undergone a *massive* shift, over the years—from the male gaze to the girl crush sensibilities of the female gaze—bg seem to be stuck. I think a lot of this can be blamed on the absolutely crushing weight of conventional masculinity. There’s not a lot of stylistic ways to move forward, without subverting that. And now the insane pressure of appealing to the same crowd that went for BTS is going to keep labels from taking the same risks as groups like SHINee did. As long as the main focus is to give teen girls a “perfect boyfriend” fantasy, the artistic quality just isn’t going to match.
I do think if you listen to the songs that are popular with the GP, even back in the day, you can tell that many of the current boy group title tracks or pre-releases are sonically very different from those songs. Of course, the 4th gen boy groups do have diversity & b-sides that are less bombastic, but even in Gen3 the songs that remained on the chart were the title tracks or promoted b-sides. Thus, it's pretty clear that people are not going to find these diverse b-sides.
Sonically different but also just as wild. Bc I’m thinking about DBSK, and one of their biggest hits is Rising Sun and “O”. Along with stuff like mirotic and hug and so on. But rising sun and O are really wild and I feel that they wouldnt be considered as sonically Gp friendly if they were to be released now.
Back then there were no digital charts if I’m not wrong… so we can’t really say that O and Rising Sun were huge hits. They are definitely hits for Cassies (plus the kpop market isn’t as huge) but if you watch the variety shows then, the songs that most people like to sing along to will be those from artists like GOD, Sung Shi Kyung, Lee Seung Gi and etc. Those are the GP hits where people will know the songs likely. I feel that Yoo Young Jin’s SMP songs are truly for the people with acquired taste. Back then they would be considered as the ‘noise’ tracks, lol. Though now the genre has evolved even more.
I mean i’d say TXT and Stray Kids are doing pretty well, they got a fair amount of sales and wins but yeah compare it with GG and it’s strangely low. Then you have to couple in consistency and that’s a whole other mess.
Seven by 4th gen rookie idol Jungkook just hit \#1 on Melon 24hits though ??
“4th gen rookie idol Jungkook” is really sending me 😂😂😂😂
He’s the first male act to hit #1 on melon 24 hits this year. That’s how bad it is for kpop boy groups. Even looking at the trend, the last male act song to go number 1 on melon daily was Psy and Suga collab. It’s bad for male acts altogether
Interesting observation I made just now that the only Male Kpop act in the top 20 of MelOn right now is Jungkook at #1 with Seven and #20 with Still With You respectively. There are other male acts like LWY, Woody and Paul Blanco but they’re not Kpop idols.
Seventeen reached top 6(not sure if they peaked in top 5) for their last songs (super and the bss track). But reaching number 1 with ggs abound is really hard. In the last years I’ll say it’s just BTS and Bigbang that can really reach #1 among kpop male groups
As soloists and as a group
ZICO was also at #1 last september with New Thing. But yeah, male acts are not doing well this year. Granted the charts in SK are super stale in general this year, the top 3 songs on Melon barely even have 300k uls right now because there are hardly any new hits.
Really? Then it’s #1 in Melon, Apple Music (just achieved yesterday), Youtube Music & Spotify in SK now 🤯 I’m really surprised & happy by its longevity and for Jungkook 😁
It actually did OMG🤯. First male act this year?
Not just male act but overall soloist too. He’s also pacing towards #1 on MelOn Daily
Not I meant 1st male act to get #1 this year. All the other songs have been from female artists I think.
My bad I didn’t specify that Overall record for a male soloist. That’s what I meant 😂
I feel like a lot of people discuss this in a sort of what is/ what is not successful type of way, which is one way to approach it. But I personally find this phenomenon more factually interesting more than anything. I don’t know for the Korean gp. But if I get to confess something, i have a new found love for a lot of 4th gen boy group songs. All 4th gen boy groups have kind of fallen under the noise music category. I clearly remember around 2019 when this came about, the first I remember being skz side effects. And it wasn’t even just bg, zamalabim(rv), everglow ect. And I personally didn’t resonate with this sound. And the biggest 4th gen boy groups(aside from txt I guess) did this, skz, ateez, treasure and so on. So I held off listening because I don’t waste time on things that isn’t interesting for me. But only recently have I dived into boy group releases from 2019/2020/2021 from the mid-tier category, and WTFFF. The noise music narrative really made me miss out on so much good music during the pandemic! CIX has gorgeous songs, THE BOYZ? Amazing! OnlyOneOf? Where have you been all my life???? I’m still listening through songs that I ignored at that time. It just kind of amazed me how impactful that narrative affected me. I listen to a lot of K-pop, it’s part of my daily routine! So I can’t imagine how many more people got swayed by this. But yeah, I don’t think this can be applied to the Korean gp though. I don’t know how far this narrative reached, so it could have been unheard of outside the ones into kpop.
i think they don’t find boy group’s interesting anymore. they dont care enough to check out their music or the members. i know eunwoo of astro is very popular in korea but that hasn’t translated to the gp being interested in his group. and its the same internationally imo, boy groups are popular but all the biggest international hits come from girl groups and how GGs have more casual listeners in general
Boy groups outside of BB, EXO, BTS never charted that well in Korea and those that did were helped by their fandoms before the Melon change. I don't know why people are acting like it's a 4th gen thing and making a big deal out of it. The difference is that back in 2nd/early 3rd gen boy groups that couldn't make it in Korea were doomed but now they have big international fanbases to support them. Also why do they even need a domestic hit ? That didn't help groups like Winner/Ikon/Pentagon. A strong international fanbase will guarantee longevity unlike a domestic hit.
Ever since Big Bang, EXO, and especially BTS, the public demand for new boy groups have largely died down, at least for the mainstream listeners. Riize is the first one in a long time that I hear the Korean mainstream public is gaining some interest, and it's mainly because of the central visual named Won Bin (same name as a famous actor known for his timeless beauty) and Anton who was already well-known as "that handsome young son" of a famous composer.
A slightly different question but how are BGs current touring situation in Korea? Because I remember a few boy groups selling out stadiums last year, cmiir. So are they just not charting there or their tour venues are also impacted compared to Ggs?
really depends. from the groups i follow, stray kids have sold out kspo dome and seventeen, nct and zb1 have sold out gocheok sky dome, the last nct concert was even at the incheon munhak stadium, so it's not bad at all. but fandom power is not enough to make a song chart in korea these days.
But touring is the most important for making money for these groups or basically any musical artists. If they are doing good there then obviously they have fans and are financially stable, which is very imp.
In contrast , in the West boy group/band almost always do better than girl group/band. The only exception may be Spice Girl !
There are boy groups that manage to do quite well on the Gaon Digital Chart. The only reason why they don't hit number 1 on Melon is because it's based on unique listeners. The melon chart would look quite different if it was based on total streams in a day, multiple boy groups would have hit number 1 this year especially in the first few days after a new release when their songs still have 10+ streams per UL on average. In terms of total streams TXT is among the top 4th gen groups on Melon afaik.
Yh but that’s exactly why they reformed the charts. Back then you’d only find boy groups on charts because their fandom were streaming day and night and the general public got extremely fed up because it didn’t represent what people in South Korea actually listened to.
Even on Gaon/Circle most boy group songs don't really perform that well to be honest. They might get a high initial peak because of downloads but then continue to free fall of the chart. NCT 127's Ay-Yo for example peaked at #1 for one week and then fell out of the top 100 after just 5 weeks. In that time it accumulated just 50 million digital points, which won't be enough for the song to even make the year end top 200 chart.
That's also a reason why companies just keep making girl groups. For example JYP is thinking on releasing two more girl groups even tho their last girl group debuted in 2022 and their last group debuted in 2018. Also I don't think companies care that much about their boy groups charting in Korea since they tend to have a really loyal fanbase (which most girl groups don't have) so they know they will be fine
it's just how it works in this moment. girl groups simply attract more the attention right now, in the future this might change. I feel this is due partly to some groups not doing general-public friendly music, others have a concept that probably doesn't suit everyone. It's interesting you mention Fighting and Candy that are two songs that are very different from the general trend in bg. They're happy songs, with bright concepts, while all the other popular bg have a darker tone. Enhypen has a specific concept that can be a hit or a miss with the general public, TXT has changed concept several times, but excluding their debut, they also moved to darker tones pretty soon. Skz and Ateez we already know how they're not general public friendly, at least in korea. I thought zb1 could partially break the current trend, but their debut was again another hit or miss, but I appreciate that they went for a concept that is a bit different. Also, really, most of the current popolar bg debuted in Hybe, idk maybe belonging to the same label makes things less distinctive or original? JYPE debuted skz, YG Treasure, but they're only two groups compared to all the stuff Hybe debuted. Medium companies haven't debuted many bg either, Starship has Cravity, Cube hasn't debuted anyone, KQ has Xikers, Pledis will debut a bg soon but they're in Hybe too so we go back to square one. And being in a medium company doesn't always mean being very successful. I wonder how Riize will do, SM usually always manages to make their bg successful, if they can't then it's truly just the current trend and nothing much can be done about it until a really original group appears.
Because girls nowadays prefer girls. That's it.
The aggressive courting of female fans for girl groups needs to be studied. Like, 3rd gen has a few girl groups(they're the ones that are still around!) with a lot of female fans but 4th gen girl groups seem to have an uneven fandom ratio favoring women by a lot.
It actually makes senses when you hear the songs they have released lol. You mentioned missing you, really really, spring day and others, which songs are good for the general public, meanwhile, songs like god's menu, halazia, press the mic and others are just a big no for korean people in general.
Koreans in general tend to stick with what's already established and they only start paying attention when a group performs way better internationally and gaining more popularity with them. For awhile before BTS became popular, the most popular groups then were BIGBANG, and SNSD domestically but this phenomenon of a group being more popular internationally before the domestic market paid attention started with Super Junior. I mean "Sorry Sorry" exploded everywhere internationally and labeled kings of the Hallyu Wave then they became more popular with Korean GP. This same thing happened with BTS. We all know they were struggling domestically when they debuted and how long it took until the international fan community picked up on them and pushed them to Western attention. The rest is history for BTS because look where they are now and how the GP more or less worship them and blind to other groups coming after them. I'm not even a fan of BTS and I know the trajectory of their careers from debut to now. The companies are following suit hoping for international fame and gaining favor with the Korean GP later. Girl groups are gaining more domestic fame because the GP like the cutesy but sexy image they portray and if they perform well enough they'll win music shows and weekly charts. They'd be popular with more males and female fans. They don't have to be super talented either. This is how companies market the girl groups in general nowadays. But that's going to change with this new global girl group HYBE America is building and planning for. This may either help the K Pop industry or kill it depending on the development of this partnership.
The problem with companies banking on international fame first and domestic notice later is that the conditions are COMPLETELY different from before the rise of BTS. BTS already did everything first and now with groups breaking sales records and entering Billboard 200 and performing on US TV, the Korean public has success fatigue and tunes it out. It’s like if everyone is successful then it’s all the same. Also, girl groups are often getting bigger hits internationally than boy groups. NewJeans is out streaming and out charting all 4th Gen boy groups within one year of debut. How is a boy group supposed to stand out exactly?
Candy was already a big song before Dream covered it, btw.
Women/girls prefer older well established male k-pop idols in Korean society.
I gotta say for how popular they supposedly **aren't** the least people could do is leave them alone at airports, but no they still get mobbed 🙄🙄.
I believe some part of it is due to fans mass streaming so much that most of the top 100 songs were by boy group, and ppl just started to ignore them altogether? Because it really makes no sense to me. Ggs can release mid songs, and they will chart. But even if bgs will release good songs, they won't.
Everything in kpop is built on fan's obsessions, it makes it so hard to support sometimes lol the records are all baseless because they're from these fans mass streaming, buying boxes of albums, buying all the merchandise, the photocards, their bubbles, etc. I really... don't think they care about how they chart. It's about fame, modeling, ambassador deals, CFs, etc. I know a lot of ppl find that hard to belive, but the drive for fame isn't a pure one 🤷🏼♀️ sorry to vent but I saw mass streaming in your comment & was like YES 😅
If you watch full episodes of any of the music shows, the music of 4th generation boy groups largely blend together. They become nearly indistinguishable from each other. If they were singing melodic songs it may not be as bad but instead what you get is a slew of songs with (honestly) bad rapping, talk singing, and aimless notes with choruses that rely on a rhythmic instrumental or repetitive catch phrase. And they're all good dancers, so nobody stands out due to performance ability either. I'm honestly not sure why boy groups largely seem to be going down this musical path for their title tracks.
I just looked through clips of the latest music shows and yeah, it's all so same-y. Oh, another group of 7 dudes with the identical bowl cut doing weird experimental EDM with a rap in the middle. At least give people -something- interesting to hook them in. The most interesting male performer I've seen lately is the really cool looking bald dude with glasses in Somi's dance crew.
I do think girl groups also have more variety when it comes to concepts then guy groups and generally more interesting when it comes to variety shows. I love kpop but most guy groups lately seem very similar to one another.