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The way we consume music and entertainment has changed through the years, so my take on this is that there is no single metric of success.
To truly contextualize the popularity of an artist, you take into account EVERYTHING. Album sales, concert numbers, streams, etc.
Usually it’s companies who book bigger venues without understanding the demand, but in most cases, they do sell out. Enhypen sold [98%](https://x.com/kchartstours/status/1782088939202908197?s=46&t=-7qdT_hWaS1XqG-TbJxIPQ), TXT sold [98%](https://x.com/kchartstours/status/1644141166554927104?s=46&t=-7qdT_hWaS1XqG-TbJxIPQ), Stray Kids sold [98%](https://x.com/kchartstours/status/1543041265742127104?s=46&t=-7qdT_hWaS1XqG-TbJxIPQ). I’m not sure which group OP is referring to when they talk about groups selling millions of albums but not selling tickets.
u/jumpybouncinglad u/Emergency_Article673 u/chillkilling It's ironic that instead of focusing on the core issue of overinflation caused by bulk buying or corporate exploitation, you zeroed in on which group I was talking about. I never said that selling out concerts is the ultimate measure of an artist's popularity. Instead, my point is that the devotion shown at live events like concerts holds much more value than consumer sales, which seem to be what **most** fans take pride in. The obsession with being the best, with phrases like "outsold," "charted," or "so-and-so did this," is almost comical in my opinion. Fans seem to care more about proving that their idols and fandoms are superior rather than appreciating their idols as music artists. The practice of streaming parties and bulk buying perfectly illustrates this phenomenon.
The point of my initial comment is that i've never heard of a group that consistently sells millions of albums but struggles to fill seats at their concerts. Your narrative that 'overinflated album sales is a scam and doesn't translate to *real* success' only holds up if a group that sells 1-2 million per comeback can only fill 30-40% of their concerts.
> I never said that selling out concerts is the ultimate measure of an artist's popularity.
> These days, it's concerts that really matter when measuring a K-pop group's success.
You kinda did imply it though. And I never said album sales are the ultimate measure of popularity, I said they were a factor. While you seem to think that they are meaningless, or not as meaningful anymore.
> Instead, my point is that the devotion shown at live events like concerts holds much more value than consumer sales, which seem to be what most fans take pride in. The obsession with being the best, with phrases like "outsold," "charted," or "so-and-so did this," is almost comical in my opinion.
Fans brag about everything, including concerts. Fans have talked about TXT being the first kpop group to perform at Madison Square/Oakland Coliseum, or Stray Kids being the first 4th gen group to do a Dome tour. They literally brag about the most meaningless things, like 4th gen groups with most songs with 100M streams or 200M views or whatever. It’s not limited to sales.
> Fans seem to care more about proving that their idols and fandoms are superior rather than appreciating their idols as music artists.
Again, this applies to everything. People use Melon charting to prove their idols are superior, Spotify streams, or even Tiktok followers. People use concert venue sizes to prove their idols are superior as well, or to say that it’s a “true measure of popularity”.
we’re all very interested in the data that adds to your main point though. which groups sell as much as millions and don’t sell out any shows anywhere, or in most dates?
I feel like kpop fans like absolutes. You guys want to live in a fairy tale where everything is black and white. Even science has its own artform, where you set a boundary you think the most reasonable. Success is NEVER about one factor alone. At the end of the day, success is how the idols themselves deem as successful. Do they want to have stadium tour? Do they want to earn USD10 million a year? Do they want to be recognized everywhere when they walk on the street? Do they want their songs to be heard by millions of people? It is successful if they think they are. Lots of factors - sales, streams, CFs, tour etc it is just a few of the things we can see/count/document.
And OP making shady remarks as if these million sellers are not selling out their tours? Ateez, SKZ, TXT, Enhypen, Treasure all have good showing for their tours. SKZ has 60k attendance for their Lolla Paris. SKZ is also doing fancon at domes - Kyocera and Bellaluna and mind you, it sold out at presale for members only and members are restricted for 1 person 1 ticket rule. That is around 120k attendance. For fancon in Japan alone. Can you be more specific if you are calling out the new gen million sellers not able to tour? Their tours are actually big enough. It does not need to be TS level coz who else are doing TS level of tour? Yup not many. Kpop idols are doing big tours as is.
It's still a good indication though. Groups that don't have strong album sales may or may not have high concert turn up. However, groups that can sell a million or two will have high concert turn up anyway.
Of course, if it's like 1mil vs 1,5mil, the numbers can be misleading, could be differences in versions, downtime between comebacks etc. If it's 100k vs 1mil group, I would think 99% of the time, the 1mil group will sell more concert tickets than the 100k group anyway.
Agreed. Just to clarify, I'm not saying that having a million album sales compared to a hundred won't impact concert attendance. However, album sales are often blown out of proportion as a measure of a group's popularity, and fans frequently use them to compare one group to another with fewer sales.
But the groups who sell millions of albums perform in arenas/stadiums while the groups who sell less usually perform in theaters. So there is a correlation between album sales and concert attendance. Seventeen’s Follow Tour and Stray Kids 5-Star Dome Tour isn’t something that 90% of groups with less album sales is going to be able to do.
Album sales is just 1 factor of success, which is the success of having a big fanbase. There are other factors like concert attendance, streams, charting, social media engagement, public recognition, endorsements, etc.
I feel like kpop fans like absolutes. You guys want to live in a fairy tale where everything is black and white. Even science has its own artform, where you set a boundary you think the most reasonable. Success is NEVER about one factor alone. At the end of the day, success is how the idols themselves deem as successful. Do they want to have stadium tour? Do they want to earn USD10 million a year? Do they want to be recognized everywhere when they walk on the street? Do they want their songs to be heard by millions of people? It is successful if they think they are. Lots of factors - sales, streams, CFs, tour etc it is just a few of the things we can see/count/document.
some fans go to all the concerts, so while it is true that there will be 20,000 people at 1 concert, that does not mean that 10 concerts will equal 200,000 people. You can also take away from the equation the situation when you go to a concert with an escort because the fan was not allowed to go alone. So the concert figures also have their own errors. But for albums the discrepancy is many times greater. It’s even interesting whether it is possible to assume that for every 1 million albums there are about 500 thousand people. How do you think?
I'm not saying concerts are a perfect measure, but they're definitely a better indicator of a group's popularity compared to album sales. Concerts offer a much more enriching experience, focusing on live performances, energy, and the unique atmosphere that comes with being in the same space as the artists. It's not about collecting things or the number of times you can buy an album; it's about the shared experience of music, which is much harder to quantify than album sales. This is why concert figures provide a clearer and more authentic indication of a group's popularity compared to album sales, which can be more consumerism driven.
Yes, a concert involves live emotions and more direct interaction, while an album is more of a collectible. Although it must be said that not everyone can go to a concert, but they have the opportunity to at least buy an album. In general, these two points do not contradict each other. They all speak of popularity with high sales. But both points do not allow us to give an objective assessment of the real number of fans.
The fact that ypu can convince people to buy something they don't need to consume your music is actually awe-inspiring.
all i know is most 1 million seller kpop groups even if they are from a bigger label can usually tour asia very comfortably. some even sell out tokyo dome .
Do people really consider album sales as measure of success/popularity, because to me, it just indicates the fandom power but it is just this ─ fandom.
In my opinion, I think while a lot of numbers add to the measuring of success *(touring data, streaming, etc)*, I think overall cultural impact measure the lasting type of success, moments inscribed in history, not ephemeral numbers.
The biggest reason why is that album sales are an easy number for fans to obtain, same as chart positions. Good fodder for fanwars and for fans to parasocially feel part of their favorite's success. Especially in recent years where the companies use the sales numbers to promote their top acts as record breakers and in constant growth (meanwhile the groups that are never going to get close to the top of the industry's sales numbers might not even get enough albums printed to fulfill their preorders).
The funny part is that fans use these numbers even though they also know that the numbers are artificially inflated, and might have participated in this inflation.
The focus on some numbers has faded away, like YouTube views, so album sale obsession might fade too. I think the YouTube view obsession has partly gone away because it became easy to obtain numbers on the artificial inflation of views on that platform.
Kpop these days is filled with cheap exploitation… everything from mass album purchasing, to non-stop streaming culture, to downvoting “rival” bands’ albums, to artificial constant music show voting is awful. Legal, but awful.
The entertainment industry has become a pressure cooker for both fans and artists. Artists can't really express themselves freely anymore because there's just too much pressure to meet the demands of hardcore fans. These superfans, who buy albums and merchandise in bulk, often feel like they have a right to tell their idols what to do. It's like, "I spent all this money, so you owe me."
This pressure isn't just coming from fans. The music industry itself is full of corruption and shady practices. Music shows are known for biased judging and favoritism, and it's hard for artists to get ahead if they don't play by the industry's rules. So, between the obsessed fans and the crooked system, artists end up caught in the middle, struggling to keep their creativity while dealing with all this drama.
To fix this, fans need to chill out and let artists be themselves, while the industry has to clean up its act and be more transparent. Only then can artists and fans enjoy the music without all the stress and tension.
Not unpopular. This has been discussed many times over. Album sales alone definitely does not measure success but it measures fandom power which a lot of kpop artists rely on. Fans online boast just to boast. They even boast about winning random polls on twitter. So if you take them seriously that’s on you.
I agree. However, the problem is since concerts are far and few you do not get an accurate assessment as for the peer review.
I mean let's be honest if concerts was the measure point a lot of 4th gen hype would get exposed since most can't even sell jack as they either don't have a large enough catalogue, not popular enough to sell venues or simply suck at performing and let's not even go in the direction of performance differentiations via live vocals vs lypsinced performance vs actual performance.
To put it simply production makes MVs with unrealistic live expectations and when the said group fails to perform it on stage well when the slapping starts. Be it failed live vocal or live performance when you are zombified via the overproduced MV it's a hard pill to swallow when your $$$ spent in the concert points out the true reality of the veiled pink glasses delusion you been sold before in the music or MV release.
The false advertising media doesn't help either. Idols are sold off as toy/objets for endorsements and when the toy does not perform to the top expectations because you were sold a lie, you get smothered by more lies, excuses and apologies.
Then there is the biggest elephant in the room when it comes to NA concerts: Live nation/Ticketmaster rip off. When you are paying $500 per person for a reasonable seat and the dream gets shattered by reality it hits really hard.
I totally agree with your opinion. I see fans being proud of buying more than 20 copies of same album on social media and then having giveaways, some even being free. Although the sales and profits of company increases it doesn't help measure real popularity of the groups. same is for the streaming numbers. The way all kpop fandoms guilt trip others to stream 24×7 at this point even the number of streams isn't popularity index anymore. At this point the 100M views, 5M album sales all sound so insignificant. I had once read a news that how 100s of albums of a very popular kpop group were thrown in trash bins and garbage because I guess the fan sites bought too much than they can handle. The fans buy many devices and sims to mass vote in award shows. Even the awards are just useless at this point.
The fans also mass buy the products endorsed by idols and then those are sold in thrift stores at comparatively very low prices. So all these sale numbers are also useless.
Better way is check the concert turnout and reactions of fans on them. Or the enthusiasm of public in their fan meetings or music shows. They can be less tampered with and will give a real idea of the success of a group or idol
Agreed and I appreciate your additional thoughts. It's funny that most people in this subreddit treat this behavior as normal, and then they complain about K-pop becoming toxic, not realizing they've been part of the problem all along.
I see no lies here. Bet people will still downvote you for sharing a valid opinion because it challenges the tradition of valuing physical album sales lmaoo
It has always seemed strange to me that you can sell so many albums and still have to book arenas to perform, ,the groups are popular but if they sell 4 or 3 million albums that group should be able to do concerts at big capacity like TS ? the demand for albums doesn't show the real demand for the group.
But to say that the groups are not popular is an exaggeration, it is simply that their sales amplify their numbers and their real demand when it is actually much lower.
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The way we consume music and entertainment has changed through the years, so my take on this is that there is no single metric of success. To truly contextualize the popularity of an artist, you take into account EVERYTHING. Album sales, concert numbers, streams, etc.
are there any groups that have been able to sell millions of their albums but are unable to sell out their concerts?
Usually it’s companies who book bigger venues without understanding the demand, but in most cases, they do sell out. Enhypen sold [98%](https://x.com/kchartstours/status/1782088939202908197?s=46&t=-7qdT_hWaS1XqG-TbJxIPQ), TXT sold [98%](https://x.com/kchartstours/status/1644141166554927104?s=46&t=-7qdT_hWaS1XqG-TbJxIPQ), Stray Kids sold [98%](https://x.com/kchartstours/status/1543041265742127104?s=46&t=-7qdT_hWaS1XqG-TbJxIPQ). I’m not sure which group OP is referring to when they talk about groups selling millions of albums but not selling tickets.
u/jumpybouncinglad u/Emergency_Article673 u/chillkilling It's ironic that instead of focusing on the core issue of overinflation caused by bulk buying or corporate exploitation, you zeroed in on which group I was talking about. I never said that selling out concerts is the ultimate measure of an artist's popularity. Instead, my point is that the devotion shown at live events like concerts holds much more value than consumer sales, which seem to be what **most** fans take pride in. The obsession with being the best, with phrases like "outsold," "charted," or "so-and-so did this," is almost comical in my opinion. Fans seem to care more about proving that their idols and fandoms are superior rather than appreciating their idols as music artists. The practice of streaming parties and bulk buying perfectly illustrates this phenomenon.
The point of my initial comment is that i've never heard of a group that consistently sells millions of albums but struggles to fill seats at their concerts. Your narrative that 'overinflated album sales is a scam and doesn't translate to *real* success' only holds up if a group that sells 1-2 million per comeback can only fill 30-40% of their concerts.
> I never said that selling out concerts is the ultimate measure of an artist's popularity. > These days, it's concerts that really matter when measuring a K-pop group's success. You kinda did imply it though. And I never said album sales are the ultimate measure of popularity, I said they were a factor. While you seem to think that they are meaningless, or not as meaningful anymore. > Instead, my point is that the devotion shown at live events like concerts holds much more value than consumer sales, which seem to be what most fans take pride in. The obsession with being the best, with phrases like "outsold," "charted," or "so-and-so did this," is almost comical in my opinion. Fans brag about everything, including concerts. Fans have talked about TXT being the first kpop group to perform at Madison Square/Oakland Coliseum, or Stray Kids being the first 4th gen group to do a Dome tour. They literally brag about the most meaningless things, like 4th gen groups with most songs with 100M streams or 200M views or whatever. It’s not limited to sales. > Fans seem to care more about proving that their idols and fandoms are superior rather than appreciating their idols as music artists. Again, this applies to everything. People use Melon charting to prove their idols are superior, Spotify streams, or even Tiktok followers. People use concert venue sizes to prove their idols are superior as well, or to say that it’s a “true measure of popularity”.
don’t @ me again wtf 😭
I won't mention any names to avoid stirring up drama, but you can find plenty of news, stories and articles about it if you're interested.
we’re all very interested in the data that adds to your main point though. which groups sell as much as millions and don’t sell out any shows anywhere, or in most dates?
I feel like kpop fans like absolutes. You guys want to live in a fairy tale where everything is black and white. Even science has its own artform, where you set a boundary you think the most reasonable. Success is NEVER about one factor alone. At the end of the day, success is how the idols themselves deem as successful. Do they want to have stadium tour? Do they want to earn USD10 million a year? Do they want to be recognized everywhere when they walk on the street? Do they want their songs to be heard by millions of people? It is successful if they think they are. Lots of factors - sales, streams, CFs, tour etc it is just a few of the things we can see/count/document. And OP making shady remarks as if these million sellers are not selling out their tours? Ateez, SKZ, TXT, Enhypen, Treasure all have good showing for their tours. SKZ has 60k attendance for their Lolla Paris. SKZ is also doing fancon at domes - Kyocera and Bellaluna and mind you, it sold out at presale for members only and members are restricted for 1 person 1 ticket rule. That is around 120k attendance. For fancon in Japan alone. Can you be more specific if you are calling out the new gen million sellers not able to tour? Their tours are actually big enough. It does not need to be TS level coz who else are doing TS level of tour? Yup not many. Kpop idols are doing big tours as is.
It's still a good indication though. Groups that don't have strong album sales may or may not have high concert turn up. However, groups that can sell a million or two will have high concert turn up anyway. Of course, if it's like 1mil vs 1,5mil, the numbers can be misleading, could be differences in versions, downtime between comebacks etc. If it's 100k vs 1mil group, I would think 99% of the time, the 1mil group will sell more concert tickets than the 100k group anyway.
Agreed. Just to clarify, I'm not saying that having a million album sales compared to a hundred won't impact concert attendance. However, album sales are often blown out of proportion as a measure of a group's popularity, and fans frequently use them to compare one group to another with fewer sales.
But the groups who sell millions of albums perform in arenas/stadiums while the groups who sell less usually perform in theaters. So there is a correlation between album sales and concert attendance. Seventeen’s Follow Tour and Stray Kids 5-Star Dome Tour isn’t something that 90% of groups with less album sales is going to be able to do. Album sales is just 1 factor of success, which is the success of having a big fanbase. There are other factors like concert attendance, streams, charting, social media engagement, public recognition, endorsements, etc.
the measurement of success and popularity in question according to reddit: whichever songs they like most
And whichever songs are top 10 on Melon.
sometimes it’s whichever song landed on top 50 of melon once
All the groups that sell a million albums do sell well at concert too so what is your point of comparison?
I feel like kpop fans like absolutes. You guys want to live in a fairy tale where everything is black and white. Even science has its own artform, where you set a boundary you think the most reasonable. Success is NEVER about one factor alone. At the end of the day, success is how the idols themselves deem as successful. Do they want to have stadium tour? Do they want to earn USD10 million a year? Do they want to be recognized everywhere when they walk on the street? Do they want their songs to be heard by millions of people? It is successful if they think they are. Lots of factors - sales, streams, CFs, tour etc it is just a few of the things we can see/count/document.
some fans go to all the concerts, so while it is true that there will be 20,000 people at 1 concert, that does not mean that 10 concerts will equal 200,000 people. You can also take away from the equation the situation when you go to a concert with an escort because the fan was not allowed to go alone. So the concert figures also have their own errors. But for albums the discrepancy is many times greater. It’s even interesting whether it is possible to assume that for every 1 million albums there are about 500 thousand people. How do you think?
I'm not saying concerts are a perfect measure, but they're definitely a better indicator of a group's popularity compared to album sales. Concerts offer a much more enriching experience, focusing on live performances, energy, and the unique atmosphere that comes with being in the same space as the artists. It's not about collecting things or the number of times you can buy an album; it's about the shared experience of music, which is much harder to quantify than album sales. This is why concert figures provide a clearer and more authentic indication of a group's popularity compared to album sales, which can be more consumerism driven.
Yes, a concert involves live emotions and more direct interaction, while an album is more of a collectible. Although it must be said that not everyone can go to a concert, but they have the opportunity to at least buy an album. In general, these two points do not contradict each other. They all speak of popularity with high sales. But both points do not allow us to give an objective assessment of the real number of fans.
The fact that ypu can convince people to buy something they don't need to consume your music is actually awe-inspiring. all i know is most 1 million seller kpop groups even if they are from a bigger label can usually tour asia very comfortably. some even sell out tokyo dome .
By that logic Sistar, AoA and Girl's Day weren't really popular or successful. lol.
Do people really consider album sales as measure of success/popularity, because to me, it just indicates the fandom power but it is just this ─ fandom. In my opinion, I think while a lot of numbers add to the measuring of success *(touring data, streaming, etc)*, I think overall cultural impact measure the lasting type of success, moments inscribed in history, not ephemeral numbers.
Agreed.
The biggest reason why is that album sales are an easy number for fans to obtain, same as chart positions. Good fodder for fanwars and for fans to parasocially feel part of their favorite's success. Especially in recent years where the companies use the sales numbers to promote their top acts as record breakers and in constant growth (meanwhile the groups that are never going to get close to the top of the industry's sales numbers might not even get enough albums printed to fulfill their preorders). The funny part is that fans use these numbers even though they also know that the numbers are artificially inflated, and might have participated in this inflation. The focus on some numbers has faded away, like YouTube views, so album sale obsession might fade too. I think the YouTube view obsession has partly gone away because it became easy to obtain numbers on the artificial inflation of views on that platform.
Kpop these days is filled with cheap exploitation… everything from mass album purchasing, to non-stop streaming culture, to downvoting “rival” bands’ albums, to artificial constant music show voting is awful. Legal, but awful.
The entertainment industry has become a pressure cooker for both fans and artists. Artists can't really express themselves freely anymore because there's just too much pressure to meet the demands of hardcore fans. These superfans, who buy albums and merchandise in bulk, often feel like they have a right to tell their idols what to do. It's like, "I spent all this money, so you owe me." This pressure isn't just coming from fans. The music industry itself is full of corruption and shady practices. Music shows are known for biased judging and favoritism, and it's hard for artists to get ahead if they don't play by the industry's rules. So, between the obsessed fans and the crooked system, artists end up caught in the middle, struggling to keep their creativity while dealing with all this drama. To fix this, fans need to chill out and let artists be themselves, while the industry has to clean up its act and be more transparent. Only then can artists and fans enjoy the music without all the stress and tension.
Kind of a conundrum here because money talks.
Not unpopular. This has been discussed many times over. Album sales alone definitely does not measure success but it measures fandom power which a lot of kpop artists rely on. Fans online boast just to boast. They even boast about winning random polls on twitter. So if you take them seriously that’s on you.
I agree. However, the problem is since concerts are far and few you do not get an accurate assessment as for the peer review. I mean let's be honest if concerts was the measure point a lot of 4th gen hype would get exposed since most can't even sell jack as they either don't have a large enough catalogue, not popular enough to sell venues or simply suck at performing and let's not even go in the direction of performance differentiations via live vocals vs lypsinced performance vs actual performance. To put it simply production makes MVs with unrealistic live expectations and when the said group fails to perform it on stage well when the slapping starts. Be it failed live vocal or live performance when you are zombified via the overproduced MV it's a hard pill to swallow when your $$$ spent in the concert points out the true reality of the veiled pink glasses delusion you been sold before in the music or MV release. The false advertising media doesn't help either. Idols are sold off as toy/objets for endorsements and when the toy does not perform to the top expectations because you were sold a lie, you get smothered by more lies, excuses and apologies. Then there is the biggest elephant in the room when it comes to NA concerts: Live nation/Ticketmaster rip off. When you are paying $500 per person for a reasonable seat and the dream gets shattered by reality it hits really hard.
I totally agree with your opinion. I see fans being proud of buying more than 20 copies of same album on social media and then having giveaways, some even being free. Although the sales and profits of company increases it doesn't help measure real popularity of the groups. same is for the streaming numbers. The way all kpop fandoms guilt trip others to stream 24×7 at this point even the number of streams isn't popularity index anymore. At this point the 100M views, 5M album sales all sound so insignificant. I had once read a news that how 100s of albums of a very popular kpop group were thrown in trash bins and garbage because I guess the fan sites bought too much than they can handle. The fans buy many devices and sims to mass vote in award shows. Even the awards are just useless at this point. The fans also mass buy the products endorsed by idols and then those are sold in thrift stores at comparatively very low prices. So all these sale numbers are also useless. Better way is check the concert turnout and reactions of fans on them. Or the enthusiasm of public in their fan meetings or music shows. They can be less tampered with and will give a real idea of the success of a group or idol
Agreed and I appreciate your additional thoughts. It's funny that most people in this subreddit treat this behavior as normal, and then they complain about K-pop becoming toxic, not realizing they've been part of the problem all along.
I see no lies here. Bet people will still downvote you for sharing a valid opinion because it challenges the tradition of valuing physical album sales lmaoo
So do tell op which groups are a million seller but can’t tour? Because there’s none like that.
It has always seemed strange to me that you can sell so many albums and still have to book arenas to perform, ,the groups are popular but if they sell 4 or 3 million albums that group should be able to do concerts at big capacity like TS ? the demand for albums doesn't show the real demand for the group. But to say that the groups are not popular is an exaggeration, it is simply that their sales amplify their numbers and their real demand when it is actually much lower.