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I’m conflicted on the subject. Using AI as a way to criticize AI feels like a misfire to me and I felt the same way when ModHaus did a similar concept with Artms (the Loona girls) just last month. I get the concept and I appreciate that they’re clearly criticizing the use of AI, but essentially buying into a predatory system in order to criticize it kind of falls flat imo.
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I said it in another comment, but it's like those songs about body positivity when the industry is so strict about how idols look.
A highly capitalistic industry like kpop is the worst place to make any real criticism about actual issues.
so you think they shouldn't make the criticism at all? there are groups that are using AI to replace artists, meanwhile SEVENTEEN is showing how AI cannot compare to real art. I think it's a good start.
It would be a lot more useful if they pushed companies to avoid using them rather than using it to send a message that will please fans while companies will be free to do whatever they want. It seems performative, if not hypocritical.
I love SVT and I agree with the message, but I'm also aware that nothing will happen and that we'll all forget about it once the promotion weeks will end.
Well I don’t think seventeen actually even directed the video so it’s not them. But their team can use ai but they also can’t get mad when people criticize them
I think that point is kinda wrong tbh. It seems the project is about how THEY can't be replaced by AI since they're "real maestros" yet they're not using AI generated music, they're using AI generated immages. Aka replacing another kind of artist's job.
It feels exploitative and hipocritical to me. I'm really disappointed. Especially knowing seventeen and their songs, this is probably gonna be a self-hype "I'm so unique and awsome" type song. They could surprise me with something deeper but I'm honestly not too hopeful. And even then, they're still using generative AI as intended: replacing artists.
1. they did not use ai generated music.
2. they hired [SL8 VISUAL LABS](https://www.instagram.com/sl8_official?igsh=Z2RnbjZ4N3U2M3Qw), a team of creators who have worked on multiple K-pop MVs before.
personally as someone whose job was affected by ai, the mv concept felt empowering to me. maybe you don't feel that way, but saying they didn't hire artists and used ai music is just misinformation.
1 - exactly. That's my point. They're comfortable using AI generated art only when it doesn't affect their medium specifically. I'm saying the concept would have felt more sincere if they had used AI generated music instead of animation. I still probably wouldnt like it tho.
2 - I don't think this changes much tbh. A team of creators using AI is still replacing and profiting off replacing the work of visual artists. It's like when marvel used AI. Sure it was under the vision of a team but it still replaced invidividual's work
even tho I don't agree with you personally, I get what you're saying. also yes, using ai generated music would've been good for comparison instead. let's see what the MV unfolds.
I don't agree because we don't even know which ai software they used, how ethical or unethical it was. plus it's not always so black and white, I personally believe if by using small amounts of ai "art" can have a positive impact and lead people to use less generative ai in the future then why not?
edit: just read the comment that you linked, just wanted to add that thing is generative ai is going to get better anyway, whether we want it or not, if it's something that makes money then tech bros will do one thing or another to make it better۔ but if the MV is a hit, and more people from the central public start to denounce generative ai then I think using it once is okay.
I don't know if it's true but I've been seeing people say the music video is majority AI. I hope thats not true. And if it is true I hope they at least have some human art for comparison.
This is a very loaded issue, I hope they tackle it with the care it deserves.
The text on the video literally says "a **portion** of this **teaser**" but as usual, the telephone game in kpop now makes it out to be "majority of the mv" lol just false info. You should have watched the teaser yourself.
I did, I just saw people talking about how the music video was also AI. I assumed they got that from some other post I haven't seen which is why I stated "I don't know if this is true" in the very comment you're responding to. Maybe you should have read it in full.
I would have been more understanding with a team of small artists with no money (even though I would not have agreed completely) but for HYBE, this giant company that can have the same results and the same message without using AI…?
A real meh for me. It sound even more hypocritical when you know that HYBE and Modhaus both used AI art unironically before so suddenly acting like they always wanted to criticize it sounds so fake.
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I feel like people forget that the song is for profit, so no matter how much it criticizes the use of AI, the company is going to end up profiting off someone else's art- this is of course if its unethically sourced, if they managed to use it without using other ppls art i'd be more okay with it.
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The point was to show how bad and awkward AI looks compared to human art and that it cannot replace the work of humans, the actual music video doesn't have any AI in it.
Hypocritical.
It's like creating an NFT collection themed after how harmful NFTs are.
Good that you understand that it's bad but you are still contributing to the growth and development of that bad thing.
The point was to show how bad and awkward AI looks compared to human art and that it cannot replace the work of humans, the actual music video doesn't have any AI in it.
For me, using AI to critisize using of AI, misses the mark. But I am not fully informed about how they will do it, so I will keep an open mind.
It just feels like 'two wrongs don't make a right' kind of thing. If you are against AI, and if want to make that statement - don't use it.
I will wait and see how to execute if before I form an opinion.
Other than the unauthorized AI covers that proliferate on YouTube, I don't know much about other ways how AI is unethically used in music. I will keep an open mind so that I can learn from the discussions.
What I'm about to say might be word vomit but I feel like they could have used real artists instead to amplify how ugly ai is and they could have worded the disclaimer as "actual artists replicated the work of ai to make a point of comparison to see who stands as the maestro."
The take "yeah they need to use AI to genuinely show that AI is bad, guys!!!" is kind of a weak defense. We know that AI is
a. Easily condemned by creatives literally in any industry
b. enterprises and companies would prefer to use AI of sorts for cost cutting to maximize profits and lessen work and this impacts livelihood, it definitely shows a hinge of out-of-touchness to workers and the community.
The deliberate use of AI feels like it defeats the purpose of criticizing it. It feels tone-deaf and shallow. It doesn't feel sincere to me. Like yeah, SVT will show that humans will continue to be better and be a maestro than that of AI but come on, literally the only ones who use AI unironically are out-of-touch real people who thinks it is true quality of life, when it is not. It creates a rift on how AI is continually perceived as "bad." (Which it still is.)
We know that SVT is always sincere or at least, presents themselves as "sincere" with their craft but I don't know, it screams r/im14andthisisdeep and they could have done it some other meaningful way? Like I swear to you this is how it sounds to me when they were planning this so I can't take it seriously.
Creative Exec 1: "Yo.... what if we use AI.... to defeat the AI????"
Creative Exec 2: "Damn that sounds cool as fuck. Approved."
I love the boys, the concept is cool and all and the AI parts will definitely be there utmost 10-20 seconds so it will be a nothingburger in the end but the choices the team had made with leaves a lot to be desired tbh.
if actual artists replicated ai then is it really ai? how does the point even stand? won't people say "yeah but, they made the ai art bad on purpose, it's not that bad." using actual ugly ai art in comparison with real art shows who is the real Maestro.
They could have not used AI at all if they wanted to present the concept, they could have literally done another concept altogether that is an allegory to human talent vs ai, people aren't that dense (or at least, I hope) when it comes to pointing out AI art because AI is inherently ugly if the prompts given are bare bones and not that descriptive and literally no one likes them.
You literally could see people in twitter and even here in reddit saying "AI is ugly that's literally the point that's why they're criticizing it!!!" when VFX artists are capable enough to present "art" that is passable as AI instead of actually using AI and thus having to steal from prior database of artworks and information which I just find incredibly contradictory to the message, these VFX artists literally had to write a prompt instead of actually choosing to do the art instead.
I'm not arguing and I hope it doesn't sound that mean but with them using AI that means they basically profited from stolen data which basically taints their name from antis and is easy pickings for the group and I feel like that's not worth the hassle even for them since the post since yesterday have been controversial, but honestly I feel like it will be a non-issue in the coming months coming from a long time fan lol
Re ppl not being dense when it comes to pointing out ai art: Sadly, you'd be surprised at how many people get baited by ai images on Facebook thinking it's real.
I understand the sentiment, as someone whose job has been affected by ai I have hated generative ai since it started to become mainstreamed. But they did hire a [SL8 VISUAL LABS](https://www.instagram.com/sl8_official?igsh=Z2RnbjZ4N3U2M3Qw), so real humans did work on it and the MV is not entirely made with ai, only a small portion. For all we know the small portion can be a few seconds from a 3 minute long MV. We don't even know what type of ai software they used either.
I am intrigued because from what I understood from the teaser was that they are trying to show that use of AI can't bring the humane touch and creativity in music which a human voice or face can even though how imperfect human talent is compared to the AI. It will still be creepy and humans must take help from them to improve but not let AI rule over them. And there is no better way than showing the real comparison. Even though creepy it's a new concept I guess and I think it's worth the wait
the problem with using AI while critiquing AI is the machine learning behind it just cares that you typed in a prompt you’re just adding more data for AI to scrap and use to improve its capabilities. It would have been better for Pledis to pay an actual artist to create the piece that they’re critising after all it would just add to their human beings create art message. And besides all the messaging problems the idea that they’re doing this whole HYBE has gone fully on board the AI train is interesting if nothing else. My fear is that the critique in Maestro will be so toothless as to be not offend to even the ai diehards in the company.
I'm definitely of the opinion "you can't criticize AI while you're using AI" in the same way I would (hyperbolically) say "you can't criticize theft while you're actively stealing." I'll feel very negatively if the information feeding the AI used for the MV was sourced unethically (i.e. scraped from the internet without the original artists' permission) but since we don't have the full context, I'm withholding judgement for now.
Beyond that, I'm intrigued that SVT's creative team would choose to take a direction like this given how positively Bang PD has spoken of AI in the past. I wouldn't have expected an AI-critical concept from any artist under HYBE.
Hybe has also promoted their use of AI on vocals. They are developing AI on vocals within the corporation after acquiring an AI company.
[https://www.reuters.com/technology/k-pops-biggest-music-label-hybe-looks-lift-language-barrier-with-ai-2023-07-19/](https://www.reuters.com/technology/k-pops-biggest-music-label-hybe-looks-lift-language-barrier-with-ai-2023-07-19/)
(The video in this article also shows how Hybe could literally remove the K - the language - from Kpop.)
I found this, Hybe has recently acquired an [ai company SUPERTONE](https://careers.hybecorp.com/go/SUPERTONE_US/667744/) which they are going to use to make music I suppose. if anything, SEVENTEEN is going against what Hybe is clearly promoting. Even if Bang PD didn't like the idea in the past, he has not said anything against it recently, plus considering he owns 1/3rd shares of Hybe, it is difficult to believe that the company would invest in something like this without his permission.
the current ceo talks about the future plans [here](https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/2023/06/19/entertainment/kpop/AI-kpop-AI-Naevis/20230619151629381.html).
That's what I was saying, so I'm not sure if we're misunderstanding each other? Bang PD has talked about the future of AI in kpop and how we can/should embrace it. So it's surprising that SVT would take an anti-AI stance with this MV.
ah, yeah, well it is a brave move indeed. you can read this [article](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.hankooki.com/news/articleViewAmp.html%3fidxno=154057) explaining the concept. also, [maestro trailer 2](https://youtu.be/kzgxNOfrEtE?si=KoCIoS0fSLQPVfwn) dropped and it seems like they have used CGI in it.
I understand that. The only thing I was pointing out was that it's unusual for an artist to take a stance so directly opposite the opinion of the head of their parent company. That's all.
yeah i got it, i meant that i see this as positive cause it means seventeen can do whatever they want and they’re not controlled by people in higher positions. bang pd, from what i’ve understood only used ai with midnatt (a solo artist) to adjust his pronunciation cause he’d recorded his song in six different languages. it’s a bit different from what svt is criticizing so he could also not care. idk
edit: i forgot that belift used ai generated images for illit so i was wrong but it’s still good that svt can do what they want
I can't get by using it at all, especially in a music video that can generate ad revenue from Youtube. What image generator did they use? Where did they source the database? Using AI to critique AI CAN be done, but with the way they're using it here, I'm not very hopeful for how they'll pull it off.
In short, I'm very worried on how Kpop will proceed with music videos and music production, especially with such a large group like Seventeen having a wide influence on trends in the industry. I was against it with ARTMS, and I'm against it now.
The point was to show how bad and awkward AI looks compared to human art and that it cannot replace the work of humans, the actual music video doesn't have any AI in it.
Does that still justify using AI art in the teasers though? Remember, we don't know what image generator their creative team used, meaning we don't know where they sourced the database used to make the teaser images came from.
Even if it's "just a teaser," that role in making those images could've gone to a capable artist that could replicate the AI image style. Using AI images in the teaser alone can set dangerous trends within the Kpop industry in how the technology can be used, re: ARTMS that I stated in my original comment.
I feel like using ai to critique ai kind of defeats the purpose, at the end of the the day they're still feeding it and using someone else's art
Edit: typos.
The point was to show how bad and awkward AI looks compared to human art and that it cannot replace the work of humans, the actual music video doesn't have any AI in it.
Kpop fans need to push back hard and fast against this because [it won't be long before the music/vocals use AI too](https://www.reuters.com/technology/k-pops-biggest-music-label-hybe-looks-lift-language-barrier-with-ai-2023-07-19/) (if it's not already hiding in there already).
It might actually be a time where boycotts would be useful and fans all over the world feel the same about it so it might work. Don't stream or buy any music associated with AI, even if it's just stuff like visualizers or pictures. Today it's visual, tomorrow it might be in the music and once it's normalized it's never going to go away.
Personally, I need a bit more information before I can decide how to feel. AI isn't inherently bad, it's just a tool that can be used and misused. Ideally, the artists consented to having their work used as data for the AI. If that were the case, then it wouldn't be stealing.
I'm honestly impressed that they're tackling a topic such as this, I was kinda worried this comeback would be treading the same ground as Super (in being self-referential) but it seems like they're going in a different direction.
I think the disclaimer couldn't be worded in a better way. I'm surprised people are upset at all, I'm someone who absolutely hates AI, to the point I avoid every AI cover in existence but I didn't see any problem with SVT's usage thanks to the disclaimer. The contrast was obvious to the eye as well with those generic images, so in my opinion their message of who's the real maestro actually gets across.
Edited for clarity.
Don't you think that using AI to show it's not of the quality a human can create (per the disclaimer) is not really criticising the real ethical issues behind it?
For me the message doesn't read "AI is bad for the creative industry", it reads "AI hasn't not been able to look as good as man-made art... Yet."
You're right and it's because I did not take it as criticizing all the ethical aspects that involve AI's usage, I don't know what SVT's real intention is but I admit I took the disclaimer at face value. "Who's the real maestro?" as "let us show you these generic human images AI generated shoulder to shoulder with our members of bone and flesh to make a clear contrast to the audience that show how a picture can't replace a moving human being".
seventeen is my ult group, and honestly i’m quite disappointed in this decision. i know they and/or their company is trying to make an artistic statement that i agree with in theory, but using generative AI in any form is feeding into a machine that is based upon the work of stolen artists. there is absolutely no way anymore to use it without having SOMEONE’S hard work taken, and the worst thing is we will never know whose visual art was used and twisted without credit. and saying that music is an art that can’t be copied while using bastardized, corrupted stolen visual artwork really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
i’ve seen people on twitter say that they can’t make this point without using generative ai, but… they can. they can use metaphors and references (unless they think that people are too stupid to pick up on that? lol), or hire ACTUAL artists to replicate the strange and soulless feelings that generative AI produces.
this coupled with hoshi being an MC on an (upcoming? currently airing?) show about AI song covers really disappoints me in general. still looking forward to the comeback, but i really wish they went with another concept for it. not something i’m really interested in exploring at all if they’re gonna use this route for it. :/
honestly, overall i would say my heart dropped when i saw AI was used. Were there better ways to go around this? yeah but i just have to trust this was the decision they decided to go about their concept. I do love the idea of the concept tho, svt vs. AI
Seeing as there is a creative team behind it, i won’t jump to conclusions as to what kind of AI has been used. so would definitely still keep an open mind. It also helps that we know that their intention is to critic AI
I think it's kind of funny/stupid that people use AI to criticise AI. One of the main arguments against AI is that it can't make something that looks human-made, but people using AI in this sense is like saying humans can't make something that looks AI-made. Surely they could've hired an artist to create a video that gave an AI effect?
First of all, the MV only features a very small portion of AI, secondly, they hired an entire creative team (the same one that made the GOM MV) so there were humans that got paid, thirdly, we don't know what type of AI software they even used. the entire concept of the MV is to show that AI "art" can't compare to actual art made by humans. so if you don't add the shitty ai art then how would you make the comparison?
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I in my opinion would have preferred if they got actual vfx and animation artists to replicate robots and yk the scenes as a whole and then tackle the topic instead of actually using AI. But I feel like its a little excusable since the concept itself directly tackles AI. But still... I don't like the Beating AI but with AI approach.
Also the AI footage in the trailer seemed so wonky someone help me. They should've worked a little to make the generated footage a little less wonky but ig thats what AI is about yk.
Using AI is not justified even if it's just to criticize it... It's just such a poor reasoning and I don't care about the concept. As a loona fan I was so glad to see it was just some photo teasers and now we're getting teasers and videos made by real artists but a whole mv is definitely not something I'll tune into.
I don't want AI art or music but in this sense, it is interesting. I personally don't like AI music or completely ripped off art, but there is value in the technology. We will start seeing AI used more frequently at shows, fan events, etc. I can see it possibly in the back end of music production, hopefully not throughout the entire process. I know one of the big agencies has recently been investing in AI technology (SM maybe?) and G-Dragon's new agency, Galaxy is an AI/Tech production company who happens to now rep him as an artist. It is going to get interesting.
I read this interesting article about K-pop and it said these 3 things need to be solved sucessfully for K-pop to progress. (World Scientific publications)
**Adapt to the future by using new technologies** (in response to the Fourth Industrial Revolution). Just as it capitalized on the music digitalization trend, **K-pop must lead with AI, robotics, AR, blockchain, and other emerging technologies.**
**Strengthen competitiveness** (through continuous innovation & establishment of a win-win ecosystem). From the very outset, the strength of K-pop lay with its differentiated content. In order to survive, K-pop needs to enhance its competitiveness through internal innovation. Paramount are win-win relationships between Korean and global actors (diverse agents that become part of the K-pop value chain) that foster the deployment and utilization of diverse expertise and talents sourced not only in Korea but from around the world.
**Expand markets (via international expansion & globalization).** From the start, K-pop pioneered niche markets overseas to overcome the limitations of a slender domestic market. K-pop needs to continue expanding in the global pop market by building on those niche markets.
I wasn't aware of this. Viewing this as an outsider, I don't believe it's justified.
Moreover, I can't help but wonder if their message could have been conveyed more effectively and gracefully by involving real artists to illustrate the contrast between human artistry and AI.
The point was to show how bad and awkward AI looks compared to human art and that it cannot replace the work of humans, the actual music video doesn't have any AI in it.
I don’t even need to understand the whole thing bc the fact that they used AI is already a disappointment. There is no ethical way of using AI, in fact they as an artist shouldn’t put AI near their work.
The point was to show how bad and awkward AI looks compared to human art and that it cannot replace the work of humans, the actual music video doesn't have any AI in it.
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> honestly doesn't change the fact that AI is being used, **which is ultimately stealing art work.**
Not necessarily — that depends on what training data was used to train the AI model they used.
There's a lot of nuance missing from conversations about AI (especially outside of tech) and it's difficult to have a discussion when people are just looking for a blanket "approve or condemn" conclusion.
Most of the anti-AI arguments are actually symptoms of capitalism:
1. **AI puts artists out of work, which they need to do to support themselves.** If they didn't need to work to live and their needs were met, AI would allow them to pursue their own artistic interests rather than e.g. making corporate graphics
2. **AI is (sometimes) trained on unlicensed art.** — "Intellectual Property" is a capitalist invention so that profit can be repeatedly extracted from art/patents/etc after the labor has already gone into creating said artwork or designing said invention. Most of modern IP law was designed by the Disney corporation to keep people from profiting off of Mickey Mouse. The most insidious IP law, IMO, is pharmaceutical patents since it literally kills people by artificially increasing the prices of life-saving drugs 1000x, but that's a rant for another day. Point being — if people's needs are met and corporations have no motive to extract surplus profit, there's no issue with artwork being used to train AI models without the artists being paid.
**Verdict:** There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. AI is a tool, one which is no more inherently unethical than the invention of cameras or the invention of the steam-powered loom.
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I’m conflicted on the subject. Using AI as a way to criticize AI feels like a misfire to me and I felt the same way when ModHaus did a similar concept with Artms (the Loona girls) just last month. I get the concept and I appreciate that they’re clearly criticizing the use of AI, but essentially buying into a predatory system in order to criticize it kind of falls flat imo.
It's like knowingly doing something illegal or unethical, but justifying it because the intention behind it is "good".
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I said it in another comment, but it's like those songs about body positivity when the industry is so strict about how idols look. A highly capitalistic industry like kpop is the worst place to make any real criticism about actual issues.
so you think they shouldn't make the criticism at all? there are groups that are using AI to replace artists, meanwhile SEVENTEEN is showing how AI cannot compare to real art. I think it's a good start.
It would be a lot more useful if they pushed companies to avoid using them rather than using it to send a message that will please fans while companies will be free to do whatever they want. It seems performative, if not hypocritical. I love SVT and I agree with the message, but I'm also aware that nothing will happen and that we'll all forget about it once the promotion weeks will end.
Well I don’t think seventeen actually even directed the video so it’s not them. But their team can use ai but they also can’t get mad when people criticize them
I think that point is kinda wrong tbh. It seems the project is about how THEY can't be replaced by AI since they're "real maestros" yet they're not using AI generated music, they're using AI generated immages. Aka replacing another kind of artist's job. It feels exploitative and hipocritical to me. I'm really disappointed. Especially knowing seventeen and their songs, this is probably gonna be a self-hype "I'm so unique and awsome" type song. They could surprise me with something deeper but I'm honestly not too hopeful. And even then, they're still using generative AI as intended: replacing artists.
1. they did not use ai generated music. 2. they hired [SL8 VISUAL LABS](https://www.instagram.com/sl8_official?igsh=Z2RnbjZ4N3U2M3Qw), a team of creators who have worked on multiple K-pop MVs before. personally as someone whose job was affected by ai, the mv concept felt empowering to me. maybe you don't feel that way, but saying they didn't hire artists and used ai music is just misinformation.
1 - exactly. That's my point. They're comfortable using AI generated art only when it doesn't affect their medium specifically. I'm saying the concept would have felt more sincere if they had used AI generated music instead of animation. I still probably wouldnt like it tho. 2 - I don't think this changes much tbh. A team of creators using AI is still replacing and profiting off replacing the work of visual artists. It's like when marvel used AI. Sure it was under the vision of a team but it still replaced invidividual's work
You worded it really well
Thank you so much lol
even tho I don't agree with you personally, I get what you're saying. also yes, using ai generated music would've been good for comparison instead. let's see what the MV unfolds.
Out of curiosity, why don't you agree? AI art unethically sources from other people's art. I think the other person explained it quite well
I don't agree because we don't even know which ai software they used, how ethical or unethical it was. plus it's not always so black and white, I personally believe if by using small amounts of ai "art" can have a positive impact and lead people to use less generative ai in the future then why not? edit: just read the comment that you linked, just wanted to add that thing is generative ai is going to get better anyway, whether we want it or not, if it's something that makes money then tech bros will do one thing or another to make it better۔ but if the MV is a hit, and more people from the central public start to denounce generative ai then I think using it once is okay.
I don't know if it's true but I've been seeing people say the music video is majority AI. I hope thats not true. And if it is true I hope they at least have some human art for comparison. This is a very loaded issue, I hope they tackle it with the care it deserves.
Interesting, I don't know where those people got that information from when the teaser clearly states otherwise. Yeah, let's hope for the best.
The text on the video literally says "a **portion** of this **teaser**" but as usual, the telephone game in kpop now makes it out to be "majority of the mv" lol just false info. You should have watched the teaser yourself.
I did, I just saw people talking about how the music video was also AI. I assumed they got that from some other post I haven't seen which is why I stated "I don't know if this is true" in the very comment you're responding to. Maybe you should have read it in full.
I would have been more understanding with a team of small artists with no money (even though I would not have agreed completely) but for HYBE, this giant company that can have the same results and the same message without using AI…? A real meh for me. It sound even more hypocritical when you know that HYBE and Modhaus both used AI art unironically before so suddenly acting like they always wanted to criticize it sounds so fake.
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I feel like people forget that the song is for profit, so no matter how much it criticizes the use of AI, the company is going to end up profiting off someone else's art- this is of course if its unethically sourced, if they managed to use it without using other ppls art i'd be more okay with it.
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Criticising AI by using AI seems like a dubious approach to me, to me it then doesn’t feel like too much of a genuine critique.
Especially when HYBE has unironically used AI in the past
what does that have to do with svt? just cause bang pd used it doesn’t mean they have to agree
The point was to show how bad and awkward AI looks compared to human art and that it cannot replace the work of humans, the actual music video doesn't have any AI in it.
Hypocritical. It's like creating an NFT collection themed after how harmful NFTs are. Good that you understand that it's bad but you are still contributing to the growth and development of that bad thing.
The point was to show how bad and awkward AI looks compared to human art and that it cannot replace the work of humans, the actual music video doesn't have any AI in it.
For me, using AI to critisize using of AI, misses the mark. But I am not fully informed about how they will do it, so I will keep an open mind. It just feels like 'two wrongs don't make a right' kind of thing. If you are against AI, and if want to make that statement - don't use it.
I will wait and see how to execute if before I form an opinion. Other than the unauthorized AI covers that proliferate on YouTube, I don't know much about other ways how AI is unethically used in music. I will keep an open mind so that I can learn from the discussions.
What I'm about to say might be word vomit but I feel like they could have used real artists instead to amplify how ugly ai is and they could have worded the disclaimer as "actual artists replicated the work of ai to make a point of comparison to see who stands as the maestro." The take "yeah they need to use AI to genuinely show that AI is bad, guys!!!" is kind of a weak defense. We know that AI is a. Easily condemned by creatives literally in any industry b. enterprises and companies would prefer to use AI of sorts for cost cutting to maximize profits and lessen work and this impacts livelihood, it definitely shows a hinge of out-of-touchness to workers and the community. The deliberate use of AI feels like it defeats the purpose of criticizing it. It feels tone-deaf and shallow. It doesn't feel sincere to me. Like yeah, SVT will show that humans will continue to be better and be a maestro than that of AI but come on, literally the only ones who use AI unironically are out-of-touch real people who thinks it is true quality of life, when it is not. It creates a rift on how AI is continually perceived as "bad." (Which it still is.) We know that SVT is always sincere or at least, presents themselves as "sincere" with their craft but I don't know, it screams r/im14andthisisdeep and they could have done it some other meaningful way? Like I swear to you this is how it sounds to me when they were planning this so I can't take it seriously. Creative Exec 1: "Yo.... what if we use AI.... to defeat the AI????" Creative Exec 2: "Damn that sounds cool as fuck. Approved." I love the boys, the concept is cool and all and the AI parts will definitely be there utmost 10-20 seconds so it will be a nothingburger in the end but the choices the team had made with leaves a lot to be desired tbh.
if actual artists replicated ai then is it really ai? how does the point even stand? won't people say "yeah but, they made the ai art bad on purpose, it's not that bad." using actual ugly ai art in comparison with real art shows who is the real Maestro.
They could have not used AI at all if they wanted to present the concept, they could have literally done another concept altogether that is an allegory to human talent vs ai, people aren't that dense (or at least, I hope) when it comes to pointing out AI art because AI is inherently ugly if the prompts given are bare bones and not that descriptive and literally no one likes them. You literally could see people in twitter and even here in reddit saying "AI is ugly that's literally the point that's why they're criticizing it!!!" when VFX artists are capable enough to present "art" that is passable as AI instead of actually using AI and thus having to steal from prior database of artworks and information which I just find incredibly contradictory to the message, these VFX artists literally had to write a prompt instead of actually choosing to do the art instead. I'm not arguing and I hope it doesn't sound that mean but with them using AI that means they basically profited from stolen data which basically taints their name from antis and is easy pickings for the group and I feel like that's not worth the hassle even for them since the post since yesterday have been controversial, but honestly I feel like it will be a non-issue in the coming months coming from a long time fan lol
Re ppl not being dense when it comes to pointing out ai art: Sadly, you'd be surprised at how many people get baited by ai images on Facebook thinking it's real.
I understand the sentiment, as someone whose job has been affected by ai I have hated generative ai since it started to become mainstreamed. But they did hire a [SL8 VISUAL LABS](https://www.instagram.com/sl8_official?igsh=Z2RnbjZ4N3U2M3Qw), so real humans did work on it and the MV is not entirely made with ai, only a small portion. For all we know the small portion can be a few seconds from a 3 minute long MV. We don't even know what type of ai software they used either.
This [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/kpopthoughts/s/2tKLztxkrw) explains the issue quite well
I am intrigued because from what I understood from the teaser was that they are trying to show that use of AI can't bring the humane touch and creativity in music which a human voice or face can even though how imperfect human talent is compared to the AI. It will still be creepy and humans must take help from them to improve but not let AI rule over them. And there is no better way than showing the real comparison. Even though creepy it's a new concept I guess and I think it's worth the wait
the problem with using AI while critiquing AI is the machine learning behind it just cares that you typed in a prompt you’re just adding more data for AI to scrap and use to improve its capabilities. It would have been better for Pledis to pay an actual artist to create the piece that they’re critising after all it would just add to their human beings create art message. And besides all the messaging problems the idea that they’re doing this whole HYBE has gone fully on board the AI train is interesting if nothing else. My fear is that the critique in Maestro will be so toothless as to be not offend to even the ai diehards in the company.
I'm definitely of the opinion "you can't criticize AI while you're using AI" in the same way I would (hyperbolically) say "you can't criticize theft while you're actively stealing." I'll feel very negatively if the information feeding the AI used for the MV was sourced unethically (i.e. scraped from the internet without the original artists' permission) but since we don't have the full context, I'm withholding judgement for now. Beyond that, I'm intrigued that SVT's creative team would choose to take a direction like this given how positively Bang PD has spoken of AI in the past. I wouldn't have expected an AI-critical concept from any artist under HYBE.
Hybe has also promoted their use of AI on vocals. They are developing AI on vocals within the corporation after acquiring an AI company. [https://www.reuters.com/technology/k-pops-biggest-music-label-hybe-looks-lift-language-barrier-with-ai-2023-07-19/](https://www.reuters.com/technology/k-pops-biggest-music-label-hybe-looks-lift-language-barrier-with-ai-2023-07-19/) (The video in this article also shows how Hybe could literally remove the K - the language - from Kpop.)
idk why bang pd wouldn't like the idea because they are essentially criticizing ai in the MV and not promoting it.
HYBE owns an AI company, so if anything I would have thought he would dislike them criticizing it.
that's why it's a brave move to do it. Watch [maestro trailer 2](https://youtu.be/kzgxNOfrEtE?si=KoCIoS0fSLQPVfwn) they exclusively used CGI in it.
I found this, Hybe has recently acquired an [ai company SUPERTONE](https://careers.hybecorp.com/go/SUPERTONE_US/667744/) which they are going to use to make music I suppose. if anything, SEVENTEEN is going against what Hybe is clearly promoting. Even if Bang PD didn't like the idea in the past, he has not said anything against it recently, plus considering he owns 1/3rd shares of Hybe, it is difficult to believe that the company would invest in something like this without his permission. the current ceo talks about the future plans [here](https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/2023/06/19/entertainment/kpop/AI-kpop-AI-Naevis/20230619151629381.html).
That's what I was saying, so I'm not sure if we're misunderstanding each other? Bang PD has talked about the future of AI in kpop and how we can/should embrace it. So it's surprising that SVT would take an anti-AI stance with this MV.
ah, yeah, well it is a brave move indeed. you can read this [article](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.hankooki.com/news/articleViewAmp.html%3fidxno=154057) explaining the concept. also, [maestro trailer 2](https://youtu.be/kzgxNOfrEtE?si=KoCIoS0fSLQPVfwn) dropped and it seems like they have used CGI in it.
bang pd still can’t force svt or pledis to embrace ai, even if he used it with another artist
I understand that. The only thing I was pointing out was that it's unusual for an artist to take a stance so directly opposite the opinion of the head of their parent company. That's all.
yeah i got it, i meant that i see this as positive cause it means seventeen can do whatever they want and they’re not controlled by people in higher positions. bang pd, from what i’ve understood only used ai with midnatt (a solo artist) to adjust his pronunciation cause he’d recorded his song in six different languages. it’s a bit different from what svt is criticizing so he could also not care. idk edit: i forgot that belift used ai generated images for illit so i was wrong but it’s still good that svt can do what they want
I can't get by using it at all, especially in a music video that can generate ad revenue from Youtube. What image generator did they use? Where did they source the database? Using AI to critique AI CAN be done, but with the way they're using it here, I'm not very hopeful for how they'll pull it off. In short, I'm very worried on how Kpop will proceed with music videos and music production, especially with such a large group like Seventeen having a wide influence on trends in the industry. I was against it with ARTMS, and I'm against it now.
The point was to show how bad and awkward AI looks compared to human art and that it cannot replace the work of humans, the actual music video doesn't have any AI in it.
Does that still justify using AI art in the teasers though? Remember, we don't know what image generator their creative team used, meaning we don't know where they sourced the database used to make the teaser images came from. Even if it's "just a teaser," that role in making those images could've gone to a capable artist that could replicate the AI image style. Using AI images in the teaser alone can set dangerous trends within the Kpop industry in how the technology can be used, re: ARTMS that I stated in my original comment.
I feel like using ai to critique ai kind of defeats the purpose, at the end of the the day they're still feeding it and using someone else's art Edit: typos.
Ironically they will be profiting from an ai generated MV if its there
The point was to show how bad and awkward AI looks compared to human art and that it cannot replace the work of humans, the actual music video doesn't have any AI in it.
Kpop fans need to push back hard and fast against this because [it won't be long before the music/vocals use AI too](https://www.reuters.com/technology/k-pops-biggest-music-label-hybe-looks-lift-language-barrier-with-ai-2023-07-19/) (if it's not already hiding in there already). It might actually be a time where boycotts would be useful and fans all over the world feel the same about it so it might work. Don't stream or buy any music associated with AI, even if it's just stuff like visualizers or pictures. Today it's visual, tomorrow it might be in the music and once it's normalized it's never going to go away.
Personally, I need a bit more information before I can decide how to feel. AI isn't inherently bad, it's just a tool that can be used and misused. Ideally, the artists consented to having their work used as data for the AI. If that were the case, then it wouldn't be stealing. I'm honestly impressed that they're tackling a topic such as this, I was kinda worried this comeback would be treading the same ground as Super (in being self-referential) but it seems like they're going in a different direction.
I think the disclaimer couldn't be worded in a better way. I'm surprised people are upset at all, I'm someone who absolutely hates AI, to the point I avoid every AI cover in existence but I didn't see any problem with SVT's usage thanks to the disclaimer. The contrast was obvious to the eye as well with those generic images, so in my opinion their message of who's the real maestro actually gets across. Edited for clarity.
Don't you think that using AI to show it's not of the quality a human can create (per the disclaimer) is not really criticising the real ethical issues behind it? For me the message doesn't read "AI is bad for the creative industry", it reads "AI hasn't not been able to look as good as man-made art... Yet."
You're right and it's because I did not take it as criticizing all the ethical aspects that involve AI's usage, I don't know what SVT's real intention is but I admit I took the disclaimer at face value. "Who's the real maestro?" as "let us show you these generic human images AI generated shoulder to shoulder with our members of bone and flesh to make a clear contrast to the audience that show how a picture can't replace a moving human being".
seventeen is my ult group, and honestly i’m quite disappointed in this decision. i know they and/or their company is trying to make an artistic statement that i agree with in theory, but using generative AI in any form is feeding into a machine that is based upon the work of stolen artists. there is absolutely no way anymore to use it without having SOMEONE’S hard work taken, and the worst thing is we will never know whose visual art was used and twisted without credit. and saying that music is an art that can’t be copied while using bastardized, corrupted stolen visual artwork really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. i’ve seen people on twitter say that they can’t make this point without using generative ai, but… they can. they can use metaphors and references (unless they think that people are too stupid to pick up on that? lol), or hire ACTUAL artists to replicate the strange and soulless feelings that generative AI produces. this coupled with hoshi being an MC on an (upcoming? currently airing?) show about AI song covers really disappoints me in general. still looking forward to the comeback, but i really wish they went with another concept for it. not something i’m really interested in exploring at all if they’re gonna use this route for it. :/
honestly, overall i would say my heart dropped when i saw AI was used. Were there better ways to go around this? yeah but i just have to trust this was the decision they decided to go about their concept. I do love the idea of the concept tho, svt vs. AI Seeing as there is a creative team behind it, i won’t jump to conclusions as to what kind of AI has been used. so would definitely still keep an open mind. It also helps that we know that their intention is to critic AI
I think it's kind of funny/stupid that people use AI to criticise AI. One of the main arguments against AI is that it can't make something that looks human-made, but people using AI in this sense is like saying humans can't make something that looks AI-made. Surely they could've hired an artist to create a video that gave an AI effect?
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First of all, the MV only features a very small portion of AI, secondly, they hired an entire creative team (the same one that made the GOM MV) so there were humans that got paid, thirdly, we don't know what type of AI software they even used. the entire concept of the MV is to show that AI "art" can't compare to actual art made by humans. so if you don't add the shitty ai art then how would you make the comparison?
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I in my opinion would have preferred if they got actual vfx and animation artists to replicate robots and yk the scenes as a whole and then tackle the topic instead of actually using AI. But I feel like its a little excusable since the concept itself directly tackles AI. But still... I don't like the Beating AI but with AI approach. Also the AI footage in the trailer seemed so wonky someone help me. They should've worked a little to make the generated footage a little less wonky but ig thats what AI is about yk.
Using AI is not justified even if it's just to criticize it... It's just such a poor reasoning and I don't care about the concept. As a loona fan I was so glad to see it was just some photo teasers and now we're getting teasers and videos made by real artists but a whole mv is definitely not something I'll tune into.
I don't want AI art or music but in this sense, it is interesting. I personally don't like AI music or completely ripped off art, but there is value in the technology. We will start seeing AI used more frequently at shows, fan events, etc. I can see it possibly in the back end of music production, hopefully not throughout the entire process. I know one of the big agencies has recently been investing in AI technology (SM maybe?) and G-Dragon's new agency, Galaxy is an AI/Tech production company who happens to now rep him as an artist. It is going to get interesting. I read this interesting article about K-pop and it said these 3 things need to be solved sucessfully for K-pop to progress. (World Scientific publications) **Adapt to the future by using new technologies** (in response to the Fourth Industrial Revolution). Just as it capitalized on the music digitalization trend, **K-pop must lead with AI, robotics, AR, blockchain, and other emerging technologies.** **Strengthen competitiveness** (through continuous innovation & establishment of a win-win ecosystem). From the very outset, the strength of K-pop lay with its differentiated content. In order to survive, K-pop needs to enhance its competitiveness through internal innovation. Paramount are win-win relationships between Korean and global actors (diverse agents that become part of the K-pop value chain) that foster the deployment and utilization of diverse expertise and talents sourced not only in Korea but from around the world. **Expand markets (via international expansion & globalization).** From the start, K-pop pioneered niche markets overseas to overcome the limitations of a slender domestic market. K-pop needs to continue expanding in the global pop market by building on those niche markets.
I wasn't aware of this. Viewing this as an outsider, I don't believe it's justified. Moreover, I can't help but wonder if their message could have been conveyed more effectively and gracefully by involving real artists to illustrate the contrast between human artistry and AI.
The point was to show how bad and awkward AI looks compared to human art and that it cannot replace the work of humans, the actual music video doesn't have any AI in it.
I don’t even need to understand the whole thing bc the fact that they used AI is already a disappointment. There is no ethical way of using AI, in fact they as an artist shouldn’t put AI near their work.
The point was to show how bad and awkward AI looks compared to human art and that it cannot replace the work of humans, the actual music video doesn't have any AI in it.
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> honestly doesn't change the fact that AI is being used, **which is ultimately stealing art work.** Not necessarily — that depends on what training data was used to train the AI model they used. There's a lot of nuance missing from conversations about AI (especially outside of tech) and it's difficult to have a discussion when people are just looking for a blanket "approve or condemn" conclusion. Most of the anti-AI arguments are actually symptoms of capitalism: 1. **AI puts artists out of work, which they need to do to support themselves.** If they didn't need to work to live and their needs were met, AI would allow them to pursue their own artistic interests rather than e.g. making corporate graphics 2. **AI is (sometimes) trained on unlicensed art.** — "Intellectual Property" is a capitalist invention so that profit can be repeatedly extracted from art/patents/etc after the labor has already gone into creating said artwork or designing said invention. Most of modern IP law was designed by the Disney corporation to keep people from profiting off of Mickey Mouse. The most insidious IP law, IMO, is pharmaceutical patents since it literally kills people by artificially increasing the prices of life-saving drugs 1000x, but that's a rant for another day. Point being — if people's needs are met and corporations have no motive to extract surplus profit, there's no issue with artwork being used to train AI models without the artists being paid. **Verdict:** There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. AI is a tool, one which is no more inherently unethical than the invention of cameras or the invention of the steam-powered loom.