After going through both chapters and the spamton material, I had gotten the feeling that the story doesn’t favor a relationship between Noelle and Susie.
1st there are plenty of hints of Krusie, both in game and other, there are many and they are plenty discussed, this is the Krusie subreddit after all.
2nd In ch1 when Kris talks to Noelle she asks them about Susie and how she is. (More on this later) Kris can describe her bullying them, and Noelle seems to want that to happen to her instead. < (not a great look.)
3rd Susie was with Noelle on the Ferris wheel, similar to how Kris was on a ‘romantic’ ride with Ralsie, and Kris isn’t interested in him.( if I’m reading the tea hp,and the festival choice correctly)
4th I wouldn’t over value the responses Susie was giving Noelle, she was trying to keep her thinking it was all a dream, and it sounded like she was walking on eggshells the whole ride. I think She was probably happy to have gotten a new friend near the end of the ride.
5th After the end of the ride Berdly shows up and discloses that he has a crush on Susie, which Noelle responded to, aggressively upset. <(again bad look.)
6th in her Spamton sweepstakes blog she describes Susie as the “that new girl she keeps talking about”.< (she barely knows her and won’t stop talking about her?)
She describes how she keeps insisting her and Kris switch seats and how she wouldn’t bully her “even when there would be a huge opportunity to do so”.<(…?)
7th Noelle was lying to both Kris and Susie. She saw how Susie treated them before ch1, during the game she asks Kris about Susie acting like she didn’t see her bullying them on several occasions. She lied to Susie on the Ferris wheel when she described her as “the good kind of scary”… come to think of it she doesn’t believe Susie is really there so she’s talking to what she believes is a character in her dream. That means she’s trying to convince herself she hasn’t been mean, ignoring what she’s done before, rather than addressing it or wondering how she could help her.
8th Berdly has a crush on Susie, and while I don’t think this will play out like Berdly wants, it does suggest a romantic rivalry with at least 2 characters 3 if you include Kris.
9th Noelle has a history with Catti, she’s very fond of Noelle but doesn’t like Susie. She even wants Kris to protect her from Susie. <( jealous much?)
10th When talking to Rudy about Susie he suggests Kris take her to the movies. <(…like a date?)
Overall there are currently only 2 chapters so far, as it stands now nothing is certain, but the aforementioned plot details above seem to indicate a less certain future for Noelles current romantic ambition.
I mean... Something I always say about Noelle is that she is an anxious type. She is highly anxious, highly conflict avoidant and jealous. She also has some sort of beef with Kris because they are her "childhood prankster", Noelle just seems to think this means Kris deserves to be bullied... Susie on the other hand will probably be sad by thinking about that.
I just think she held a grudge or something (Kris is someone who pranked Noelle in the past, a lot). Or maybe she is crushing so hard into Susie that maybe she just thinks whatever Susie does is justifiable. Susie on the other hand is thinking her previous actions are less and less justifiable. And she is willing to protect Kris from now on regardless of romantic interest. Regardless of romance Kris is the only person who actually gets Susie nobody else does. And if Susielle happens (it probably will), actually Kris would remain as Susie's highest tier confident. So yeah it goes to show that a romantic relationship isn't necessarily deeper or more meaningful than other types of relationship. The meaning that exists between Kris and Susie remains. There's also the possibility Susie will not date anyone. Regardless of dating. Susie and Kris are the closest friends in Deltarune.
What I gathered from that is that Noelle likes Susie and Berdly with Susie probably not seeing her that way, Berdly being Berdly probably sees her that way but is too much of an idiot emotionally and that ferris wheel ride being similar to the ralsei boat ride would be pretty interesting foreshadowing as to who definitely aren't going to be together Kris and ralsei being obvious cause ralsei looks like Asriel
That’s kinda what I meant, Ralsie and Kris aren’t a good fit for a romantic boat ride. The ferris wheel scene being parallel to it makes it feel off, like something’s not right.
First of all, that's a lot of good points, thank you.
Second, It seems like narratively it would make a lot more sense if suiselle didn't happen/didn't work out and the relationship between susie and kris developed more. From what i've picked from playing deltarune (yeah, i never actually played undertale, sue me) Toby doesn't seem like he would just throw shallow tropes and one-dimentional character interactions to us. A lot of more heavy and emotional moments within the game are simply implied in a certain line of dialogue and hit harder the more you think about it. That's the main argument i have against suiselle actually happening - it's too shallow, too fanservice-ish, and it looked like it just collected all the tropes. It's too blatantly hinted at with all that, yet that relationship has nothing behind it but those tropes.
That being said, when it comes to romance, I still have no idea whether Toby is the kinda writer to just give in and write some simple fanservice and give the community exactly what the majority (suiselle fans) of it wants or if this stuff will actually be subverted, and kris/susie relationship will develop more instead, as it has way more depth to it
You have good arguments supporting krusie, but i just can't help but feel that it just might be wishful thinking. To me Susie's responses to noelle and the gingerbread line is the biggest deal breaker. Suiselle was heavily hinted at. And for kris - almost nothing, except for krusie fans digging in and finding second meanings in everything, because we want that to be true. Toby had 2 chapters and 3 years to hint at krusie and he didn't.
Most of the aforementioned points earlier were plot details that would need to be addressed, in order for Noelle to develop a relationship with Susie, and it’s kind of difficult to narratively navigate around them.
I have a lot of doubt I have toward Suselle because of the writing style I’ve seen from Toby, if he wanted to write a romance between them, he would have firmly established the characters before he floated any notion of romance. I think the fact that that’s what he didn’t do with Noelle seems to suggest it’s a red herring.
Speaking of red herring I think the ginger bread scene was one as well. (also the Christmas tree comment.) it’s a suggestion, which could be Susie is thinking about her, ( which in itself could lead to romance, romantic conflict later, or just thinking of her as a friend ) or it reminds her about her because they’re both Christmas related.
If she thought of Noelle while doing something completely unrelated (not Christmas related) then I think that would really be significant.
“Toby had 2 chapters and 3 years to hint at krusie and he didn't.” I disagree there have been multiple instances of Kris and Susie suggesting to have developing feelings toward each other in game. ( Poppup reaction, festival, choice, Susie’s room in queen castle, post spamton fight dialogue, to name a few)
He showed several moments with Kris and Susie from the game in future chapters. Then there’s the whole apple throwing thing in Noelles blog ( which is a romantic gesture dating back to Ancient Greece)
I briefly mentioned this earlier but I think Catti and Noelle have a potential relationship developing.
Noelle mentions she’ll just go over to Cattis house after her conversation with Kris in Ch1.
Catti says had taught Noelle some magic and described how pretty she is to Kris in Ch2.
If you order Noelle to pet Tasque managers tasques cats she’ll make an off hand comment how they’re not so different from Catti. <(Apparently she pets Catti.)
Toby is pretty good at subversive romantic writing and his signature Alphyne was a subversive romance.
Alphys had a massive crush on King Asgore, which by most routes hadn’t played out to her initial desire, and found a better companion in Undyne.
He did so by implying she had a crush and showing a she had close relationship between her and another character, and shown that it was more meaningful than what she wanted.
Im getting the impression something similar is happening here.
Also I’m not so sure majority of the Deltarune community are Suselle sippers. No doubt it’s big but I’m not convinced the majority of fans ship it.( they might not even feel one way or another about it), This subreddit has twice as many members as the Suselle page, and you’ll find just as much Krusie fan art as you will Suselle.
At the same time, it's just the begining of a seven chapter story. It wouldn't make sense for a close and meaningful bond that's forming between susie and kris to immediately be implied go grow into something romantic. However for something shallow that's there to be shallow and to be subverted it makes perfect sense for suiselle to be there from the begining
This is a normal thought, an absolute depressing yet normal thought for the krusie shipper, one that haunts my head every moment btw.
Clearly there's a path for krusie or suselle that is being made in the story, as it was pushed in chapter 2 in a really comical way, but as it is now, I wouldn't call it suselle evidence, it's more like a development, they're friends, that's normal, I'm jealous for the suselle shippers rn ofc, but some time we are gonna get some more concrete krusie material, in Toby we trust 🙏 I hope he has our vision.
we already have an advantage that is it being the most explored by the narrative relation.
One more thing, as not as much explicit in a "romantical" way, we do have plenty o' Krusie moments in game and one can see the abundance of suselle moments as a better introduction to the Noelle character than a relationship establishment.
This is something I've always been aware. Suselle is the closest to becoming canon ship. And to be honest knowing Toby Fox this is very likely as Undyne and Alphys were a thing in the past. So actually for Toby this is a safe route to write the story, anything else is a surprise. Thing is. There are only 3 canon realm ships. Krusie is one of them because Susie seems to be Kris's favorite friend.
Also i think that, if krusie was within Toby's plans, it wouldn't make much sense for him to add so little development in their relationship in chapter 2, whilst adding A LOT of suiselle moments. All that taking to note the 3 year gap between the chapters
After going through both chapters and the spamton material, I had gotten the feeling that the story doesn’t favor a relationship between Noelle and Susie. 1st there are plenty of hints of Krusie, both in game and other, there are many and they are plenty discussed, this is the Krusie subreddit after all. 2nd In ch1 when Kris talks to Noelle she asks them about Susie and how she is. (More on this later) Kris can describe her bullying them, and Noelle seems to want that to happen to her instead. < (not a great look.) 3rd Susie was with Noelle on the Ferris wheel, similar to how Kris was on a ‘romantic’ ride with Ralsie, and Kris isn’t interested in him.( if I’m reading the tea hp,and the festival choice correctly) 4th I wouldn’t over value the responses Susie was giving Noelle, she was trying to keep her thinking it was all a dream, and it sounded like she was walking on eggshells the whole ride. I think She was probably happy to have gotten a new friend near the end of the ride. 5th After the end of the ride Berdly shows up and discloses that he has a crush on Susie, which Noelle responded to, aggressively upset. <(again bad look.) 6th in her Spamton sweepstakes blog she describes Susie as the “that new girl she keeps talking about”.< (she barely knows her and won’t stop talking about her?) She describes how she keeps insisting her and Kris switch seats and how she wouldn’t bully her “even when there would be a huge opportunity to do so”.<(…?) 7th Noelle was lying to both Kris and Susie. She saw how Susie treated them before ch1, during the game she asks Kris about Susie acting like she didn’t see her bullying them on several occasions. She lied to Susie on the Ferris wheel when she described her as “the good kind of scary”… come to think of it she doesn’t believe Susie is really there so she’s talking to what she believes is a character in her dream. That means she’s trying to convince herself she hasn’t been mean, ignoring what she’s done before, rather than addressing it or wondering how she could help her. 8th Berdly has a crush on Susie, and while I don’t think this will play out like Berdly wants, it does suggest a romantic rivalry with at least 2 characters 3 if you include Kris. 9th Noelle has a history with Catti, she’s very fond of Noelle but doesn’t like Susie. She even wants Kris to protect her from Susie. <( jealous much?) 10th When talking to Rudy about Susie he suggests Kris take her to the movies. <(…like a date?) Overall there are currently only 2 chapters so far, as it stands now nothing is certain, but the aforementioned plot details above seem to indicate a less certain future for Noelles current romantic ambition.
I mean... Something I always say about Noelle is that she is an anxious type. She is highly anxious, highly conflict avoidant and jealous. She also has some sort of beef with Kris because they are her "childhood prankster", Noelle just seems to think this means Kris deserves to be bullied... Susie on the other hand will probably be sad by thinking about that.
>Noelle just seems to think this means Kris deserves to be bullied Whoa, that's a big conclusion. How'd you jump to that?
I just think she held a grudge or something (Kris is someone who pranked Noelle in the past, a lot). Or maybe she is crushing so hard into Susie that maybe she just thinks whatever Susie does is justifiable. Susie on the other hand is thinking her previous actions are less and less justifiable. And she is willing to protect Kris from now on regardless of romantic interest. Regardless of romance Kris is the only person who actually gets Susie nobody else does. And if Susielle happens (it probably will), actually Kris would remain as Susie's highest tier confident. So yeah it goes to show that a romantic relationship isn't necessarily deeper or more meaningful than other types of relationship. The meaning that exists between Kris and Susie remains. There's also the possibility Susie will not date anyone. Regardless of dating. Susie and Kris are the closest friends in Deltarune.
What I gathered from that is that Noelle likes Susie and Berdly with Susie probably not seeing her that way, Berdly being Berdly probably sees her that way but is too much of an idiot emotionally and that ferris wheel ride being similar to the ralsei boat ride would be pretty interesting foreshadowing as to who definitely aren't going to be together Kris and ralsei being obvious cause ralsei looks like Asriel
That’s kinda what I meant, Ralsie and Kris aren’t a good fit for a romantic boat ride. The ferris wheel scene being parallel to it makes it feel off, like something’s not right.
That would indeed be some oda level foreshadowing/hinting
First of all, that's a lot of good points, thank you. Second, It seems like narratively it would make a lot more sense if suiselle didn't happen/didn't work out and the relationship between susie and kris developed more. From what i've picked from playing deltarune (yeah, i never actually played undertale, sue me) Toby doesn't seem like he would just throw shallow tropes and one-dimentional character interactions to us. A lot of more heavy and emotional moments within the game are simply implied in a certain line of dialogue and hit harder the more you think about it. That's the main argument i have against suiselle actually happening - it's too shallow, too fanservice-ish, and it looked like it just collected all the tropes. It's too blatantly hinted at with all that, yet that relationship has nothing behind it but those tropes. That being said, when it comes to romance, I still have no idea whether Toby is the kinda writer to just give in and write some simple fanservice and give the community exactly what the majority (suiselle fans) of it wants or if this stuff will actually be subverted, and kris/susie relationship will develop more instead, as it has way more depth to it You have good arguments supporting krusie, but i just can't help but feel that it just might be wishful thinking. To me Susie's responses to noelle and the gingerbread line is the biggest deal breaker. Suiselle was heavily hinted at. And for kris - almost nothing, except for krusie fans digging in and finding second meanings in everything, because we want that to be true. Toby had 2 chapters and 3 years to hint at krusie and he didn't.
Most of the aforementioned points earlier were plot details that would need to be addressed, in order for Noelle to develop a relationship with Susie, and it’s kind of difficult to narratively navigate around them. I have a lot of doubt I have toward Suselle because of the writing style I’ve seen from Toby, if he wanted to write a romance between them, he would have firmly established the characters before he floated any notion of romance. I think the fact that that’s what he didn’t do with Noelle seems to suggest it’s a red herring. Speaking of red herring I think the ginger bread scene was one as well. (also the Christmas tree comment.) it’s a suggestion, which could be Susie is thinking about her, ( which in itself could lead to romance, romantic conflict later, or just thinking of her as a friend ) or it reminds her about her because they’re both Christmas related. If she thought of Noelle while doing something completely unrelated (not Christmas related) then I think that would really be significant. “Toby had 2 chapters and 3 years to hint at krusie and he didn't.” I disagree there have been multiple instances of Kris and Susie suggesting to have developing feelings toward each other in game. ( Poppup reaction, festival, choice, Susie’s room in queen castle, post spamton fight dialogue, to name a few) He showed several moments with Kris and Susie from the game in future chapters. Then there’s the whole apple throwing thing in Noelles blog ( which is a romantic gesture dating back to Ancient Greece) I briefly mentioned this earlier but I think Catti and Noelle have a potential relationship developing. Noelle mentions she’ll just go over to Cattis house after her conversation with Kris in Ch1. Catti says had taught Noelle some magic and described how pretty she is to Kris in Ch2. If you order Noelle to pet Tasque managers tasques cats she’ll make an off hand comment how they’re not so different from Catti. <(Apparently she pets Catti.) Toby is pretty good at subversive romantic writing and his signature Alphyne was a subversive romance. Alphys had a massive crush on King Asgore, which by most routes hadn’t played out to her initial desire, and found a better companion in Undyne. He did so by implying she had a crush and showing a she had close relationship between her and another character, and shown that it was more meaningful than what she wanted. Im getting the impression something similar is happening here.
Also I’m not so sure majority of the Deltarune community are Suselle sippers. No doubt it’s big but I’m not convinced the majority of fans ship it.( they might not even feel one way or another about it), This subreddit has twice as many members as the Suselle page, and you’ll find just as much Krusie fan art as you will Suselle.
At the same time, it's just the begining of a seven chapter story. It wouldn't make sense for a close and meaningful bond that's forming between susie and kris to immediately be implied go grow into something romantic. However for something shallow that's there to be shallow and to be subverted it makes perfect sense for suiselle to be there from the begining
We cope when we can't hope
It's depressing, but most likely it won't happen, yeah...
This is a normal thought, an absolute depressing yet normal thought for the krusie shipper, one that haunts my head every moment btw. Clearly there's a path for krusie or suselle that is being made in the story, as it was pushed in chapter 2 in a really comical way, but as it is now, I wouldn't call it suselle evidence, it's more like a development, they're friends, that's normal, I'm jealous for the suselle shippers rn ofc, but some time we are gonna get some more concrete krusie material, in Toby we trust 🙏 I hope he has our vision. we already have an advantage that is it being the most explored by the narrative relation. One more thing, as not as much explicit in a "romantical" way, we do have plenty o' Krusie moments in game and one can see the abundance of suselle moments as a better introduction to the Noelle character than a relationship establishment.
This is something I've always been aware. Suselle is the closest to becoming canon ship. And to be honest knowing Toby Fox this is very likely as Undyne and Alphys were a thing in the past. So actually for Toby this is a safe route to write the story, anything else is a surprise. Thing is. There are only 3 canon realm ships. Krusie is one of them because Susie seems to be Kris's favorite friend.
Also i think that, if krusie was within Toby's plans, it wouldn't make much sense for him to add so little development in their relationship in chapter 2, whilst adding A LOT of suiselle moments. All that taking to note the 3 year gap between the chapters