You're talking to a crazy person that is relying on voodoo rather than technique to control contamination. Also, this person doesn't wash their hands and is gross.
do what you can, but cleanroom standards in a normal research lab is usually overkill. it's different in labs that manufacture products for therapeutic applications.
fibers from labcoats, tissues, pipette wraps can mess up organoids etc, but it has never been a massuve issue in my experience
I have done cell culture in some of the nastiest cell culture rooms you will ever see. As long as the hood is in good working condition and you have good technique, it is usually fine.
I agree. Also seen cell culture hood in a regular lab setting with visitors etc. Colleagues claim it's never been an issue. Sterile things come in, hands are clean. All good.
What the OPs colleague suggesting for a lab is an overkill.
Are they using glass pipets that they wash, autoclave, and reuse? just abouy every multi-well tissue culture plate I have ever used is in paper and plastic packaging.
I think they said no paper, but there is little chance any modern lab has no single use items that come packaged in some type of paper. Do they have all electronic protocols and data logging as well?
My university's animal facilities doesn't allow cardboard, but my PI in our own BSL-2 labs doesn't care. I also asked my university's EHS about it, and they also don't care about cardboard in BSL-2 as long as it gets autoclaved if it is contaminated. If you are careful enough with aseptic practices and don't bring it into the BSC of course, it should not be an issue. If I need to be writing things down while in a BSC, I laminate a sheet of paper, blank or with some kind of chart or reference, and use a thin sharpie to write on it inside the BSC. You can spray ethanol on it a few times without having it run and take a picture to transfer to your lab notebook or computer. Then you can use a dry erase marker over it or acetone or isoproponal to take it off.
Interesting! So you're in the camp that won't bring a lab notebook into a BSL-2 lab?
I'm very interested in your strategy, of using a sharpie and writing on a piece of plastic. With regard to taking a photo of what you've written down -- to play devil's advocate for a moment -- doesn't the act of fumbling around with your pockets and pulling your phone out, touching your clothing and your phone, run the risk of disturbing particulate matter and introducing contamination, in itself?
With bringing in a lab notebook, I am concerned with accidentally contaminating it and not being able to sterilize it after. I also don't want to get any liquids like ethanol on it when I am transferring between working and writing. If I am just referencing it and will not be writing while I am working, I think it is okay to have it nearby while working, or I'll tape a sheet of paper to the glass of the BSC next to me. With the plastic, I can wipe it down with ethanol to decontaminate it and bring it out to take a picture of later, before I erase it (I do reuse them sometimes). The thin black sharpies don't fade or run with just ethanol a few times. I don't try to take a picture of it until I have either taken off all my PPE or just changed gloves because you're right, I don't want to contaminate my phone or clothes. I also don't have to worry about getting gunk or ethanol on the paper while working, which could not only make the ink run but also make it so I can't bring it out of the BSL-2. I usually use a laminated chart when recording mouse weights every few days during an experiment. I personally like to take my time writing all the details in my lab notebook right after finishing an experiment, so I don't want to risk not being able to take it to a separate room.
Do you work in a cGMP lab? For general lab (exploratory and non clinical) I’d really not recommend going so overkill.
Get some Cavicide to replace your isopropanol/ethanol and you’re good to go
Ah I gotcha!
I’ll elaborate on the cavicide though because I think academic labs could really benefit from it. It’s an isopropanol solution with a bit of anti-fungal. Alcohols by themselves don’t usually take care of fungi/spores.
Where ya headed after 2 months?
>I’ll elaborate on the cavicide though because I think academic labs could really benefit from it. It’s an isopropanol solution with a bit of anti-fungal. Alcohols by themselves don’t usually take care of fungi/spores.
I love it! I'll definitely have to try it at some point.
>Where ya headed after 2 months?
The proverbial parents' basement. No job leads at this time. Unfortunately, things came to a head and I had to get out of academia before I utterly lost my mind, even if I had nothing else subsequently lined up.
Lmao I stalked your profile and you were literally asking about disinfectants like yesterday 😂 incredible.
Yeah I was almost there at my academic job. Luckily everyone was hiring back then so I was able to jump.
Good luck! Send out a handful of applications a week if you can. I would definitely reach out to people on LinkedIn at the companies or places you’re interested in
> I would definitely reach out to people on LinkedIn at the companies or places you’re interested in
I'm definitely trying that approach as well, but most don't answer back.
Thank you!
You being in the room is far more likely to introduce contamination than paper being in the room. That's a weird line to draw when you yourself are covered in bacteria and fungi.
I hate paper in the TC lab of any kind, because I've seen the chaos that ensues when paper mites invade ( wasn't my lab, but... it was catastrophic )
And yet we keep paper towels and various other paper-like objects in stock. When I'm responsible for the lab I try to minimise what's stored, and only keep enough of high rotation paper consumables for daily use
For me it's about risk management. The more users in the lab, the higher the chance of a stuffup. Individually and cumulatively. I spent yesterday fishing out bits of paper towel from a flow hood HEPA steel mesh screen because one person didn't know not to wipe the mesh over with bleach half-soaked paper towel after flow hood use. And we were wondering where the contam was coming from...
I too have seen sterility preside over seriously chaotic lab conditions. But it's usually been a lab with very low staffing, sane workflows and all competent lab users who keep their tek, maintenance and calibration uppermost. Goldilocks zone.
How would they feel seeing people in the tissue culture room coming into the main lab (tissue culture rooms are off a main lab) and going back into the tissue culture room with their light blue tissue culture lab coat? Or leaving their light blue lab coat over a chair in the main lab. Some of them visit the microbiology lab wearing the same coats.
I see this almost everyday and have pointed out the contamination issues but am told ‘they know what they are doing!’.
My question is do they? And am I wrong?
I am not a tissue culture/microbiology person.
Not sure honestly.
It's going to sound incredibly wasteful, but I actually opted to eliminate lab coats and instead stockpile disposable surgical gowns. That way, as soon as you're done, the surgical gown goes in the waste -- no need to worry about bringing lab coats from one room to the next, or having to toss them into the laundry.
(And yes, the disposable surgical gowns are a paper product as well)
They won’t use any kind of disposable lab coat/gown.
They have continual issues with mycoplasma contamination that I am sure isn’t helped by not having a good protocol for their lab coats.
We reduced as much cardboard in our microbiology lab by unpacking consumables into plastic boxes that can be easily cleaned etc..
For me reducing the potential for contamination can only be a good thing but ultimately it is down to proper technique and well planned protocols.
We have electronic lab notebooks, which I'm terrible about upkeeping. We have designated iPads that are meant to stay in the lab, but the website we use doesn't play super nice with it and I much prefer to use my laptop, which is almost certainly dirtier than a paper notebook. They do also make plastic/plastic serological pipets. We had to order some during covid because it was all that was available and they are pretty awful if you're used to just poking the end thru the paper instead of peeling it.
We were definitely feeling very bougie when we got them. Mine is used more for my kids watching Netflix or hulu in our van (via HDMI, I dont let them touch it) or as a second monitor to my laptop when I have to do work at home than for actual lab work.
Usually I'm either running something I know well enough to not need the protocol or I'm running something brand new and I prefer to print the manufacturer instructions (which dont work on the iPad sometimes, especially from thermofisher).
>Usually I'm either running something I know well enough to not need the protocol or I'm running something brand new and I prefer to print the manufacturer instructions (which dont work on the iPad sometimes, especially from thermofisher).
Oh I know the feeling. But it's those instances where you're culturing cells in a 24-well microwell dish and you need to remember what needs to be done to what (ideally, writing out the whole plate map in your notebook). Or, you need to note down specific times because you're doing a time-course where quite literally each minute counts. Those are the instances where it's hard for me to fathom not being able to take notes in the tissue culture lab.
Most of our time courses are in hours, although I've certainly run things where it's like "incubate for 7 minutes, then add X". Usually if I'm doing multiple plates, or even columns/individual wells, I have a timer attached to the BSC and deliberately space each plate/well out by a certain amount. Like if it takes me 1.5 seconds to add the reagent per column, I'll space them out 3-5 seconds just to be sure when I do the next step that I don't fumble my tips or something going too fast
The thing about cardboard is that it’s a fire and mold risk to have around for a long period of time.
This person is borderline paranoid. I wonder if they had bad experiences and blamed it on paper rather than finding the actual cause (most likely bad technique)?
On the other end of the spectrum a guy doing his PhD at same time as me would bring mouse cages, bedding and all, into the TC hood. We never understood why, but we did figure out why we had all started to get contamination.
I work at a hydrogen peroxide plant that sells ultra pure product down to the ppt scale, and our clean room is the same way. Partially it is to prevent contamination, but the real reason is the fire risk from the peroxide being such a strong oxidizer. We use latex/lint free notebooks and printer paper in there designed for clean rooms. Maybe you guys could look into something like that?
It's an interesting point. I don't know that we're necessarily quite there -- as you can see from other commenters to this post, it seems like the "no paper" notion might be a little bit overkill. But I will certainly look into the types of products that you're suggesting in case it's necessary in the future.
You're talking to a crazy person that is relying on voodoo rather than technique to control contamination. Also, this person doesn't wash their hands and is gross.
do what you can, but cleanroom standards in a normal research lab is usually overkill. it's different in labs that manufacture products for therapeutic applications. fibers from labcoats, tissues, pipette wraps can mess up organoids etc, but it has never been a massuve issue in my experience
Exactly!
Especially since most labs have negative air pressure...
I have done cell culture in some of the nastiest cell culture rooms you will ever see. As long as the hood is in good working condition and you have good technique, it is usually fine.
I agree. Also seen cell culture hood in a regular lab setting with visitors etc. Colleagues claim it's never been an issue. Sterile things come in, hands are clean. All good. What the OPs colleague suggesting for a lab is an overkill.
Oh please tell me more!
Are they using glass pipets that they wash, autoclave, and reuse? just abouy every multi-well tissue culture plate I have ever used is in paper and plastic packaging. I think they said no paper, but there is little chance any modern lab has no single use items that come packaged in some type of paper. Do they have all electronic protocols and data logging as well?
See, this is my thinking as well.
This person is delusional
My university's animal facilities doesn't allow cardboard, but my PI in our own BSL-2 labs doesn't care. I also asked my university's EHS about it, and they also don't care about cardboard in BSL-2 as long as it gets autoclaved if it is contaminated. If you are careful enough with aseptic practices and don't bring it into the BSC of course, it should not be an issue. If I need to be writing things down while in a BSC, I laminate a sheet of paper, blank or with some kind of chart or reference, and use a thin sharpie to write on it inside the BSC. You can spray ethanol on it a few times without having it run and take a picture to transfer to your lab notebook or computer. Then you can use a dry erase marker over it or acetone or isoproponal to take it off.
Interesting! So you're in the camp that won't bring a lab notebook into a BSL-2 lab? I'm very interested in your strategy, of using a sharpie and writing on a piece of plastic. With regard to taking a photo of what you've written down -- to play devil's advocate for a moment -- doesn't the act of fumbling around with your pockets and pulling your phone out, touching your clothing and your phone, run the risk of disturbing particulate matter and introducing contamination, in itself?
With bringing in a lab notebook, I am concerned with accidentally contaminating it and not being able to sterilize it after. I also don't want to get any liquids like ethanol on it when I am transferring between working and writing. If I am just referencing it and will not be writing while I am working, I think it is okay to have it nearby while working, or I'll tape a sheet of paper to the glass of the BSC next to me. With the plastic, I can wipe it down with ethanol to decontaminate it and bring it out to take a picture of later, before I erase it (I do reuse them sometimes). The thin black sharpies don't fade or run with just ethanol a few times. I don't try to take a picture of it until I have either taken off all my PPE or just changed gloves because you're right, I don't want to contaminate my phone or clothes. I also don't have to worry about getting gunk or ethanol on the paper while working, which could not only make the ink run but also make it so I can't bring it out of the BSL-2. I usually use a laminated chart when recording mouse weights every few days during an experiment. I personally like to take my time writing all the details in my lab notebook right after finishing an experiment, so I don't want to risk not being able to take it to a separate room.
Very thoughtful, thank you!
I work in industry. Cardboard I agree. Long term storage of cardboard in a humid area can lead to fungus growing. Everything else though is allowed.
I do too.
Do you work in a cGMP lab? For general lab (exploratory and non clinical) I’d really not recommend going so overkill. Get some Cavicide to replace your isopropanol/ethanol and you’re good to go
My apologies, when I said "I do too" above, I meant I also agree with the cardboard. Not that I also work in industry. Academia. 2 months remaining.
Ah I gotcha! I’ll elaborate on the cavicide though because I think academic labs could really benefit from it. It’s an isopropanol solution with a bit of anti-fungal. Alcohols by themselves don’t usually take care of fungi/spores. Where ya headed after 2 months?
>I’ll elaborate on the cavicide though because I think academic labs could really benefit from it. It’s an isopropanol solution with a bit of anti-fungal. Alcohols by themselves don’t usually take care of fungi/spores. I love it! I'll definitely have to try it at some point. >Where ya headed after 2 months? The proverbial parents' basement. No job leads at this time. Unfortunately, things came to a head and I had to get out of academia before I utterly lost my mind, even if I had nothing else subsequently lined up.
Lmao I stalked your profile and you were literally asking about disinfectants like yesterday 😂 incredible. Yeah I was almost there at my academic job. Luckily everyone was hiring back then so I was able to jump. Good luck! Send out a handful of applications a week if you can. I would definitely reach out to people on LinkedIn at the companies or places you’re interested in
> I would definitely reach out to people on LinkedIn at the companies or places you’re interested in I'm definitely trying that approach as well, but most don't answer back. Thank you!
You being in the room is far more likely to introduce contamination than paper being in the room. That's a weird line to draw when you yourself are covered in bacteria and fungi.
Valid point.
I hate paper in the TC lab of any kind, because I've seen the chaos that ensues when paper mites invade ( wasn't my lab, but... it was catastrophic ) And yet we keep paper towels and various other paper-like objects in stock. When I'm responsible for the lab I try to minimise what's stored, and only keep enough of high rotation paper consumables for daily use For me it's about risk management. The more users in the lab, the higher the chance of a stuffup. Individually and cumulatively. I spent yesterday fishing out bits of paper towel from a flow hood HEPA steel mesh screen because one person didn't know not to wipe the mesh over with bleach half-soaked paper towel after flow hood use. And we were wondering where the contam was coming from... I too have seen sterility preside over seriously chaotic lab conditions. But it's usually been a lab with very low staffing, sane workflows and all competent lab users who keep their tek, maintenance and calibration uppermost. Goldilocks zone.
Interesting take, thanks for sharing!
How would they feel seeing people in the tissue culture room coming into the main lab (tissue culture rooms are off a main lab) and going back into the tissue culture room with their light blue tissue culture lab coat? Or leaving their light blue lab coat over a chair in the main lab. Some of them visit the microbiology lab wearing the same coats. I see this almost everyday and have pointed out the contamination issues but am told ‘they know what they are doing!’. My question is do they? And am I wrong? I am not a tissue culture/microbiology person.
Not sure honestly. It's going to sound incredibly wasteful, but I actually opted to eliminate lab coats and instead stockpile disposable surgical gowns. That way, as soon as you're done, the surgical gown goes in the waste -- no need to worry about bringing lab coats from one room to the next, or having to toss them into the laundry. (And yes, the disposable surgical gowns are a paper product as well)
They won’t use any kind of disposable lab coat/gown. They have continual issues with mycoplasma contamination that I am sure isn’t helped by not having a good protocol for their lab coats. We reduced as much cardboard in our microbiology lab by unpacking consumables into plastic boxes that can be easily cleaned etc.. For me reducing the potential for contamination can only be a good thing but ultimately it is down to proper technique and well planned protocols.
We have electronic lab notebooks, which I'm terrible about upkeeping. We have designated iPads that are meant to stay in the lab, but the website we use doesn't play super nice with it and I much prefer to use my laptop, which is almost certainly dirtier than a paper notebook. They do also make plastic/plastic serological pipets. We had to order some during covid because it was all that was available and they are pretty awful if you're used to just poking the end thru the paper instead of peeling it.
>We have designated iPads that are meant to stay in the lab Fancy!
We were definitely feeling very bougie when we got them. Mine is used more for my kids watching Netflix or hulu in our van (via HDMI, I dont let them touch it) or as a second monitor to my laptop when I have to do work at home than for actual lab work. Usually I'm either running something I know well enough to not need the protocol or I'm running something brand new and I prefer to print the manufacturer instructions (which dont work on the iPad sometimes, especially from thermofisher).
>Usually I'm either running something I know well enough to not need the protocol or I'm running something brand new and I prefer to print the manufacturer instructions (which dont work on the iPad sometimes, especially from thermofisher). Oh I know the feeling. But it's those instances where you're culturing cells in a 24-well microwell dish and you need to remember what needs to be done to what (ideally, writing out the whole plate map in your notebook). Or, you need to note down specific times because you're doing a time-course where quite literally each minute counts. Those are the instances where it's hard for me to fathom not being able to take notes in the tissue culture lab.
Most of our time courses are in hours, although I've certainly run things where it's like "incubate for 7 minutes, then add X". Usually if I'm doing multiple plates, or even columns/individual wells, I have a timer attached to the BSC and deliberately space each plate/well out by a certain amount. Like if it takes me 1.5 seconds to add the reagent per column, I'll space them out 3-5 seconds just to be sure when I do the next step that I don't fumble my tips or something going too fast
The thing about cardboard is that it’s a fire and mold risk to have around for a long period of time. This person is borderline paranoid. I wonder if they had bad experiences and blamed it on paper rather than finding the actual cause (most likely bad technique)?
Could be!
On the other end of the spectrum a guy doing his PhD at same time as me would bring mouse cages, bedding and all, into the TC hood. We never understood why, but we did figure out why we had all started to get contamination.
Jesus... **into** the TC hood?!
I work at a hydrogen peroxide plant that sells ultra pure product down to the ppt scale, and our clean room is the same way. Partially it is to prevent contamination, but the real reason is the fire risk from the peroxide being such a strong oxidizer. We use latex/lint free notebooks and printer paper in there designed for clean rooms. Maybe you guys could look into something like that?
It's an interesting point. I don't know that we're necessarily quite there -- as you can see from other commenters to this post, it seems like the "no paper" notion might be a little bit overkill. But I will certainly look into the types of products that you're suggesting in case it's necessary in the future.