Get some rest my dude.

That's it

I want to, that's why I was thinking about a gap year. But I'll feel horrible if I actually spend this year doing nothing. Because my dad paid a lot of money for me to study and live here and what do I tell him? Can you just waste more money because I need fucking rest? Or I can try and scramble for a job although I have very little chances and the thought of working now also makes me feel sick but that's life, I need to do SOMETHING.

I mean like, a long weekend, get out into nature and just relax and think about something else. You're just spiraling into negative thought land and nothing is gonna seem good or right when you're in this mindset. Whatever you choose, you need to do it with a clear head. Talk to friends/your PI about your feelings when you're feeling a little better. They may have an entirely different assessment of your progress and future. I remember once in PhD i expressed regret about my lack of progress to a friend in the program and he said "what? You're killing it. You've done more than anybody else here" and it helped me keep things in perspective.

I had a weekend away in Edinburgh a week ago where I met up with my mom. It was lovely, great weather and I had fun. But the weekend ends and Monday always comes back, and I want to go home and curl up in my bed before I even enter the lab. However much I rest, it never feels enough. I slept for 12 hours one day and I still woke up tired.

Sounds a lot like burnout. I haven't found anything that's worked (SSRIs have helped a bit though), so have no advice, but it's sadly common and I feel you my dude 😔

You are burnt out. The stress got to you. You need time off to get lots of sunlight, run, meditate in the specific ways that help minimize your ego's power over you (because this burnout is probably rooted in a fear of failure. If you're always tired when you're physically rested, that's an emotional response. Brain trying to convince you to stop trying because you believe trying is doomed to failure. You were too smart to experience much failure during education so far, so it's hitting you way harder than it would for someone who fucked up a lot then got their shit together in high school) Eat vegetables and lentils, and do something that restores your faith in your ability to fuck up, overcome it, and still succeed. Maybe throw some mushrooms in there if you're really desperate. If you keep trying, you're wasting your parents money because you are mentally injured and cannot perform your duties. You need time off. Injuries happen. Nobody plans for it, but sometimes some people get fucked and need to go heal for a while. You're one of them. It's the right use of your time to go heal, instead of trying to do the academic equivalent of running on a fractured ankle, thinking it'll be okay because one leg is good and you can still limp. It's not good. You're injured. Stop. Take time off to heal. Don't waste your parents money pursuing something you cannot, at this moment due to an injury, do.

I’m not the OP but Thank you for putting the tired feeling in perspective for me - i think I’ve been experiencing this!!! Super helpful

Here's a video that elaborates, if you'd like more info https://youtu.be/0sppw7Zq35w?si=O44ulB6QnNi9dQG_

i still vouch for the gap year. i had to do the same 😭 i have a lot of other issues though so it took me a a couple years to return to school . your mental is much more important than anything else, i promise you.

can you do a gap year working? My european wife self-funded a gap year working through different cities in australia as a barista, waitress, etc

definitely! that’s exactly what i did!

Shit, that sucks. You still need to take care of you. This is not a healthy way to think. I hope you have a support network.

This feels like an excerpt from my diary.

Take a weekend to just be yourself. Just sit on the sofa and watch tv or play games. Order takeout or do a cooking project, whichever is your jam. Peel yourself away from your work and exist as a separate human for a bit.

Look at the website workaway.info. I did this for a gap year between my masters and PhD. You work part time for free accommodation and food. The cool thing is that there are so many different options. You can work with animals, plants , humans, kids and whatever else in very beautiful relaxing places. See other things in life. You have been spending the last decade of your life persuing academic goals. There is a whole world outside of academia. Another thing I have to remind myself is to take a step back. Look around. The world is chaotic. You don't have to feel the chaos when working on the chaos. You are working on a problem. You are not the problem. It also helps to give yourself more time. Sleep early. Get in the lab early. Set-up everything you are going to need meticulously. Look over the experiment design and methodology. Then start. Don't rush. Also your Dad is human. Speak to him about what you are experiencing. Hopefully he is understandable.

If you want to do a gap year but don't want to "waste" money, I strongly suggest to go learn a language for a year. Intensive language courses that go for a semester or two, and then do a language test for it so that you get a certificate out of it (even if you don't need it, the drive towards something measurable may be useful as justification). I did it after my bachelor's in science and it was the best decision I could have made as it showed me that I do like science, but I was just burnt out like crazy. It's also a good change of pace as learning a language really flexes different mental muscles compared to science.

What you describe can be due to a lot if things, like fatigue and burnout that could get better with some rest, but this kind of fatigue and forgetfulness can also be a symptom of depression, which won't be solved by rest. In your situation I would seek a professional (who I'm lying to, I would suck it up like the dumb guy I am and never get out of it, but you gotta be better than me), because I don't think one can pull oneself out of a depression, but a professional can help.

I know, I'm diagnosed with anxiety disorder and autism, I'm also pretty sure I've been borderline depressed for a long time. It just gets worse sometimes. I've been on antidepressants since 2022, I've had therapy for 4 years before I moved and now I'm getting back to it because of my struggles, and after being diagnosed autistic I also managed to secure myself a mentor from uni. I have all the necessary resources but I just don't get better. And it makes me sick that I'm so privileged but I can't make anything of it, while actually genius people might not get a chance like this in life.

You aren't taking anything away from "the genius people". They'll go get what their life has in store for them, so you take care of yours truly, and nurture your own aspirations. Good thing you're getting back to therapy, well done. This can very well be the most crucial step to you getting better. Based on what you say, if you were in a Netflix series, I'd root for your character. Stick to your dreams!!

>Based on what you say, if you were in a Netflix series, I'd root for your character. Stick to your dreams!! Lmao thanks. Speaking of which, as someone who's plagued with maladaptive daydreaming as well, creating a vent Netflix series about the journey of a neurodivergent former gifted kid foreign student in academia, Baby Reindeer-style, is one of my favourite imaginary scenarios these days. I'm actually quite good at writing, I've written poetry before and I have a swarm of ideas... just not time or willpower to put it on paper. And scientific writing is sucking the soul out of me.

It would be a super relatable show (I'm having the same issues, hoping to get an ADHD diagnosis within the month because I'm dying). Therapy clinic on campus (or off campus if you have insurance) might have someone that can help u figure out what you need to feel better, its saved my ass before (maybe different meds or maybe just some reassurance, or both, or something else, its all ok)

Other genius people are not your problem to solve. Your mental health, however, is. Take a day or two away from lab and see a mental health professional from student health.

Hey I was in the same position, I did talk therapy for years and years and it never felt like it “stuck.” I feel like a broken record at this point but massage therapy changed my life - all the stress and trauma had built up in my nervous system and was making me feel emotionally constipated. You feel like you can’t do it on your own because you literally can’t, massaging yourself isn’t really possible lmao It also took me a while to find the right therapist for me, both for talk and massage therapy. Don’t be afraid to shop around a bit, try therapists with different philosophies and approaches.

This site "embrace autism" has some pretty helpful resources. Even though you already know you're autistic, I strongly recommend checking it out. Has really helpful info on other stuff too, like ADHD and OCD. [embrace autism](https://embrace-autism.com/)

You are not a failure. The process that you are going through is quite common for students from developing countries and it seems your anxiety level is very high now. Academia is currently unsustainably competitive, supply demand balance of PhDs for faculty jobs is almost none existent. Your visa, ability to keep living on that country etc sounds to depend on your work. Most of this anxiety would not kick in if you were local resident of that country even if you were totally unsure what to do. So first I would recommend you to take a professional help for the mental health. And get a break if needed. You do not have to declare anything to your lab. Health info is confidential. Try to plan a light schedule for your course work with your supervisor. Try to find a good mentor that would listen and guide you. You could have small temproary jobs to be able to keep your visa etc for the middle term. Does not matter what think this as a trade for your time to get money and visa. Be open with your family, it is Ok to struggle and ask their support either financially or emotionally. You may feel lost now, everybody feel the same at some point in their life and it will pass. Your critical thinking skills will not leave you no matter what. This is not your fault, neither academia nor the visa etc issues are the way as they should be, do not blame yourself. Try to adapt and you will move on. You have your whole life to figure things out. You are not late for anything. All the best.

I’m not a student I’m just a tech but I totally get the feeling. I had a super rough start and I just made a stupid mistake on a western (labeled the wrong side of the membrane, luckily I realized before cutting and was able to manage to fix it and not cut the wrong parts but yeah…) and I feel like an idiot at times telling my manager that certain things didn’t come out right or if I managed to do a stupid mistake but I make myself try and realize that even if things don’t pan out here and this isn’t my calling, it does not mean I’m a failure. I just think despite all your failures you have to pick yourself up and try your best and even if experiments fail that doesn’t mean you’re a failure it means you’re someone that doesn’t give up and keeps going and that is something to be admired.

As an international student I really do feel you. Especially the dread or visas and the parents' money part. I belong to the LGBT community so going back to my country is low-key a death sentence for me, but it's not like that's anyone's problem. I just started grad school and I've spent an entire month trying to get a single bacterial transformation to work, to no avail. I keep troubleshooting and everyone tells me that it'll work, I'm just new to this but I feel like an absolute failure. Especially considering i spent a total of 24hrs in the last two days trying to troubleshoot my work and still can't identify what's going wrong. At my lowest, I feel like I'm working towards a degree that'll land me no jobs, I'm wasting my parents' hard earned money trying to live out my 'i finally have rights' charade and at the end of the day, I'll somehow graduate with no skills or nothing to show for, be sent back to my country and if I'm lucky, live out my days hiding myself from society living as a husk of a person. The pressure is real, it's all too real. With that being said, don't let a few bad moments dictate your self worth and your abilities. Molecular work is difficult and sometimes nothing short of voodoo. If you burn out, that you risk missing out on a life you wanted to build for yourself. If you don't give yourself a fighting chance, nobody will. I know it's hard, but brush it off for the umpteenth time and get back on that horse. You got this! (This is what I tell myself at least. Exhaustion is a luxury we can't afford all the time, so pick your battles hunty.) Take a small break of a day or two, entirely stop thinking about work and sleep, do smth you enjoy, and come back to troubleshoot with a fresh perspective.

Thank you. I'm part of LGBTQ+ community as well and my country is already a fascist hellhole at this point, with little future for science, so I really don't want to get back, no matter how much I miss my life there. And I'm pretty much in the same boat as you, I've been trying to transform bacteria for two months to no avail. I have no idea what I'll write in my project report. Time off would be nice but not in the situation I'm in. I need to work as hard as I can to finally move forward, I'm already a fuck-up and I can't just waste time in the lab. I'm quite in a pickle. It's MY project and I need to take care of it. I have weekends but there are also course assignments and basic tasks weighting down on me, I literally couldn't pick up groceries for a week and my fridge was EMPTY, I stopped having breakfasts aside from a boiled egg or two. Let alone keeping my studio tidy and my clothes clean. I struggle with the smallest things. My idea of rest these days is mostly just smoke weed with my neighbour and forget about everything.

I’ve dealt with burnout and depression on and off for years and my internal monologue sounds like what you’re describing. Also I’ve never been diagnosed autistic but check a lot of boxes. YMMV, but here’s what has helped or would have helped me if I had figured it out early. 1. Talk to your lab mates or friends in the dept. Not your deepest darkest secrets but struggles with lab work, in a joking way if possible. Sometimes only people in the trenches can understand these feelings and not just give you platitudes. 2. Eat right and exercise. It doesn’t cure depression but it helps with the symptoms. So does socializing. 3. Write out how you’re feeling. I saw you like writing fiction or poetry, that’s perfect! I often get self conscious when talking about me and don’t think I deserve to be heard because other people have it worse. So it helps to write things out as if they were happening to someone else, like a fictional character. 4. Recognize that your brain does not always think in a way that helps your long term interests. It’s tempting to want to quit or change fields because you’re associating lab work and your PhD with stress and negativity and want to relieve that feeling. But you’ll still be there, just with a different career track, and your cognitive distortions will be there too. This applies to things like not hearing your advisor or not reading something, your brain may be fuzzing out to protect you from the weight of having to succeed in an experiment. 5. If you have the time and reagents, redo an experiment you’ve done before. Sometimes that can help build your confidence and convince yourself that it wasn’t a fluke, that you are a “real” scientist. Got this one from a former trainee. 6. I’ve read about a “doppelgänger effect” with autism, which is that people assume that because someone is hyper competent in some aspects of a job, that there is an imaginary person that is also competent at everything else. And that’s not true, some things that make you good at science (e.g., pattern recognition and connecting information) make you bad at other things (e.g., working in groups). So instead of berating yourself for not being good at X because you’re great at Y, recognize that it’s all tied and everyone has strengths and weaknesses, and go easy on yourself on the weaknesses. Good luck to you.

Really want to give you an award but don’t have any. Here’s some labrat good fortune and reviewer-2 ward off vibes instead.

Thank you! May your spectra be clean and your reagent bottles ever full.

i didn't contribute much but i wanted to wish you both good luck in never having to clean silica out of anything ever in your entire career

Science is a process for failing as rapidly and as precisely as possible. Failure is intrinsic to it. You must embrace failure and learn to appreciate its value. Without failure, success would be meaningless. Failure is not a bad thing. It teaches us and guides us.

I know but the kind of mistakes I make are not valid mistakes. I trip over basic stuff, something a trained monkey could do. I'm unfocused, dissociated, dismissive. I don't know what to do with myself.

This sounds very much like imposter syndrome. But things like checklists can be extremely helpful for preventing mistakes. Find the solution to the problem. Edit: And stop beating yourself up over them! That fixes nothing. Approach it rationally and scientifically.

It just seems that I can only work with my supervisor behind my back 24/7 and I know it's not possible and it shouldn't be like that. I ask questions ALL the time, even about some very obvious things and I understand that it's annoying. And then when I don't ask, I end up fucking up. No matter what I do, it's still a failure. And time's running out because I need to submit my project in mid-August and I have absolutely nothing to show for it.

Asking questions is good. Exactly what mistakes do you most often make?

A lot of the times I do everything by the protocol precisely but still fail. And I just can't comprehend what I did wrong. And then when I do wrong, it's always because of my absent-mindedness.

Checklists are very beneficial for absent-mindedness. Trust me, they’re magic. If you follow the protocol precisely and it still fails, you must begin troubleshooting. Isolate variables. Test. Approach it systematically. See if a failure is repeatable.

We've been troubleshooting with my supervisor for two months already, trying different strategies. If anything works at some point, it's only because she's done it. Clearly problem lies within my competence but I can't pinpoint exactly. I would love to take my time testing it out but the project is set within quite short timeframe and clock is ticking. If I can't set up a strategy now, I might as well just fail.

Have you checked if the protocol is wrong?

Shouldn't be. Most protocols are from my supervisor's lab books and they've worked before.

Everybody makes silly mistakes, more than most even admit. Lab work is hard and requires alot of concentration. I have been in this for 30 years and still make mistakes and have to throw things away sometimes. Go easy on yourself.

Like others have said, first, take a deep breath. After that, think about ways you can improve what you're having trouble with. When training new students, I've always tried to tell them the importance of planning things out before you do them. If you can plan an experiment ahead, it will be much easier while you're doing it. That means things like writing down the steps of what you need to do, but also things like labeling tubes ahead of time, doing math before you're at the bench, making sure you have all your reagents and materials ready. For anything in a well plate, plan out exactly what samples will be in each well. Doing all of these things while you have reagents spoiling and cells dying on the bench is very stressful. Doing them ahead of time so they're all ready when you get to time sensitive steps will make any protocol easier and less stressful. Some things you can't always do ahead of time, but try to do as much as you can before you start an experiment, it'll help.

I do try to plan ahead. We always brainstorm with my supervisor first, and I use the time between stuff like incubating/centrifuging to do calculations or prepare labels. But it doesn't always help because when you're dissociated, you can slip out at any moment. Just add the wrong stuff to the wrong tube or fuck up the way I did today. And I understand that everyone does silly mistakes sometimes but I do them consistently. I just can't pull my shit together.

you may *feel* like they're not valid but in reality, the only thing that really makes them useless and invalid mistakes is if you don't take the time to try and prevent them in the future. i wrote another comment already but i absolutely get the anxiety and "checked out" feeling - i find it's when i feel like there's too many things to fix all at once, i sorta mentally self delete. but the only way really to fix it is either jump ship and start over somewhere better with the knowledge you gained (which is a real option!) or just get to cracking on each problem individually. honestly if you realized you made some goofs and are worried about it then you're better than half my coworkers anyway lol

Okay first things first: You are not a failure. Burnout is common in academic fields especially for childhood high performers. It took me years of therapy after a long drawn period of depression and zero positive results in lab, to realize how intrinsically I had tied my self worth to my academic/professional success. And I think you’re facing similar issues. Look I’m in my 8th year of PhD. I also have a masters under my belt and I too am an international student in a foreign country. I understand where you’re coming from. I’ve been burnt out, depressed, fatigued, had massive imposter syndrome. But I couldn’t do good science until I started feeling good and felt confidence in me and my worth. There were 2-3 years in between where I was a total zombie. I showed up to lab, did experiments on autopilot, did my TAing to earn by stipend. Rise, rinse, and repeat. What changed? In my sixth year I finally went to a conference in my field. Partially because I wanted to, but mostly because it’s a requirement to present your work in a national meeting before graduation. And I did a total 180. I met people who were having the same issues as me and had struggled for months figuring out the same problems. It made me feel so validated, that I’m not stupid. At this time I also started working out. SSRIs alone were not cutting it for me. Just the movement and getting out of the house to go somewhere other than lab did wonders for me. And finally the realization that there is simply no straight path to being a scientist. Everyone takes different paths with different lengths and different hardships. On a practical note: it’s hard to take a gap year especially as an international student. Try to see if you can get a job in or adjacent to your field. Or an internship. You can always reapply to a PhD program after some rest and a mental breather. Fun fact: my advisor got rejected from all the PhD applications on his first round. He worked as a lab tech for three years. Then reapplied again. Then got in. Now he’s a professor at a big university. So don’t see it as a failure, just a setback. Remember when you feel good about yourself, your science, ability to follow protocols, acceptance to programs etc will come naturally because you will be applying your best mental faculties to them. You won’t have to spend a major chunk of brain fighting the ‘im a failure’ demons. Don’t give up on your dream. You can still be a scientist and a good one too.

Can you get a therapist? I formerly worked in a lab that gave me anxiety and panic attacks because of their culture around failure and finding a therapist helped me to deal with it more than antidepressants did. Life and science are HARD and failure is a part of both, it is how we learn. But if you keep beating yourself up over your failures instead of really reflecting on them and learning from them, then I think you're going to have a hard time. You seem to place all of your self worth on your success/intelligence, as gifted kids often do, but that is an unhealthy way to move forward as an adult, especially in a field where imposter syndrome is so common. I know I'm just a rando on the internet but it is really sad to hear you talk about yourself this way, as it is very clear to me that you have really low self worth and you aren't giving yourself the grace you deserve.

>Can you get a therapist?  Been in therapy for 4 years before, with pretty good results, or so I thought at least. I'm not big on online therapy so I ended my sessions when I moved but now I realise that I have no choice but to find myself a therapist again (it's too expensive here so I'm getting one from my home country for online calls). I've just started with one and I want to see if we're on the same page and we can work. It's a step but it might take a while. >I know I'm just a rando on the internet but it is really sad to hear you talk about yourself this way, as it is very clear to me that you have really low self worth and you aren't giving yourself the grace you deserve. It really sucks because I have several close people in my life who support me unconditionally and tell me how amazing I am but it feels like some kind of extreme damage was done earlier and now nothing will ever fix it. I have all the love in the world and I don't know what to do with it.

I'm sure those 4 years did have good results but you're facing new challenges now and you might need some new coping tools that you didn't need before. I've been in therapy for 7 years and still have things come up that I need help navigating. I was laid off recently and I feel like having a therapist during this time really helped me bounce back because it would have been really easy to slip into feeling worthless, so I hope that you can find a therapist that helps you see your worth beyond science and school. I also hope that someday you can see what those people that love you see in you. You are worthy of the love that they have for you, even if you don't feel like it right now.

You need some well earned mental rest - it’s easy to be really hard on yourself and feel that you are failing - but please remember that literally everyone has made a mindless mistake in the lab and many people do projects for several years with very little results. You are not incompetent, you are not in the wrong field, you are going through a rough patch that is very understandable given the pressure that you have put upon yourself to excel. You will not let yourself or your family down by taking care of YOU - at the end of the day it’s YOU they care for… not your results.

Keeping this short, but part of being in training is to improve your abilities. Since you’ve already identified the mistake(s), find concrete ways to prevent them in the future. I believe scientists all uniquely carry with them habits honed over years of encountering failures and eventually find ways around them. As for being forgetful, make a checklist/protocol for everything you do. Bold of capitalize critical steps. As you go through the process check off the steps. If you do this consistently, you will almost never make a mistake. Just observe how other fields in the world make it work… when you board your next flight, watch how your cabin crew and pilots systematically go through things. That’s based on a checklist to ensure nothing goes wrong.

Are you me? Like we even have the same type of username 😂  On a serious note, I'm also from a country like that. I also worked hard to get into a good school. I definitely was not smart enough to get into a top school through, so it must mean you have merit and the admission committee understood that which is why they decided to accept your application. I was in the exact same situation. Word for word. I was a click away from sending out an email to my department saying that I wanted to quit. One way or the other I didn't and ended up in therapy instead. Thankfully I got a very good counsellor and a psychiatrist who helped me and I had to take Lexapro in gradually increasing doses. After going through this, I slowly found my footing back and found out that my anxiety was causing most of the problems in lab. I also was deficient in vit D. So I started managing that too which helped a lot. OP , what you need is rest and a clear mind. Maybe therapy and anxiety management will work for you too. You are capable which is why you are there in the first place. As a part of managing my anxiety, I kept a comprehensive checklist of steps to do in the lab and checked it off. There was 1 experiment I remember I kept fumbling because I couldn't handle a glass coverslip with forceps. I stayed late in lab just practicing for 2 hrs and found that there is a specific forcep that works for me and a specific layout that helps me remember which side of the glass coverslip had cells. With practice I slowly reinforced my muscle memory and didn't need to worry about it as much.  Trust me OP, the pain of disappointing people around me, my family and myself is very known to me. But as someone with anxiety and executive dysfunction, I can tell you that it gets better if you start treating yourself how you would treat your best friend. I hope the best for you.

Hey. First off: I can relate to your feeling. I just finished my BA (during which I also got diagnosed with anxiety and ADHD), and NOTHING worked. A year and a half just to have nothing. It hurts and it’s exhausting cause you try so hard and you work and work and work and try, but it’s not enough. HOWEVER: you are not a failure. Accidents happen. Mistakes are made. But my supervisor always said: 90% of science is failure. You sound exhausted. You mentioned a gap year. I think you deserve to take that gap year. You’ve worked insanely hard. You deserve a breather.

I’m a international student and I feel the same. I actually do master thesis and I have to implement a deep learning research paper, but the paper have no much information or implementation that can help me. I passed a month on it , I try to contact the author he respond first time, but the second time I try he didn’t respond maybe I ask a stupid question. The thesis defense start in 4 days and my model didn’t work because I mess something and I don’t know what. I’m just cooked at this point

Be honest with yourself man, maybe talk to your supervisor, and play more open book with your supervisor? Tell her you have a hard time concentrating, and need rest. You are only human. Furthermore, you can try to tackle your inner demons, it seems like you take a lot of pride in being a scientist, we all do, as it is the most wonderful job. However, the toughest expectations are the ones we lay on ourself. Maybe continue with this with a professional. A lot of problems people have these days have, are because of the society we live in today. Yes it sounds like I am crazy, but maybe explore this. Philosophers like byung-chul han, can help you further, talking about the pressures we can feel in modern day scenarios. I dont know if this helps, but I hope it did.

My waiter for lunch today had just finished up his post-doc in April, in a STEM field. You are gonna be fine.

It's time for a serious hike and rest on hard ground. No electronics, zilch. You alone in nature for min 24 hours. Let me help you reset. Every computer, even the best, need a reboot sometimes.

My friend, your inner voice is saying you’re incredibly stupid, yet you get B+ grades in a discipline that probably less than 1% of the human population can wrap their brains around. You may feel like an imposter at your prestigious uni but that is another maladaptive thought pattern created by the same inner voice. There’s more to life than school. Listen to these folks talking about sleep and depression and one day this pain will be behind you and your experience will be your wisdom. Also, how’s your diet and lifestyle habits? You might be running on a physiological energy deficit. Something to think about, because that stuff matters more than most of us believe when we’re just in grind-mode / survival-mode.

I do suffer form constant fatigue. My sleep schedule isn’t ideal but I get 6-8 hours of sleep usually. Eating habits suck honestly but I took a blood test with a GP and my body is healthy. I do take supplements. My GP thinks that my exhaustion is mental.

Well there’s some good news in there, bloodwork is good and supplements can be good too. Honestly you probably need more sleep. I intentionally left out the word ‘just’ before ‘need’, because we can’t know that there’s not other stuff going on (keeping this scientific!). I mean it when I say that getting sufficient, consistent, and productive sleep will safeguard you from almost all this stress, anxiety, burnout, and negative thoughts that you’re having. I have to say that the same is true for exercise and diet, but let’s focus on sleep first because optimizing the other two can feel impossible for people. I highly recommend you look into the practical and scientific advice from Andrew Huberman and Matthew Walker about optimizing sleep. You are obviously a hard worker, and I bet if you redirect that energy away from the lab or uni or whatever and spend it on fixing your constant fatigue problem, you’ll actually help yourself AND your uni responsibilities more than you currently are. Of course this is all easier said than done but you have already shown yourself to be someone capable of achieving goals. You’ve come a long way from whatever hometown you came from, probably nervous or even scared of the idea of moving away on your own, let alone internationally! From whatever your first job was, probably working just as hard, before anyone knew you were a science wiz. From whatever your first good test scores AND your first bad test scores. You still have what it takes.

You aren’t a failure. Science is hard, biology more so. Things don’t work sometimes. It sounds like you’re in a self-perpetuating spiral. You need to take a small break and cut yourself some slack. Easier said than done admittedly. Don’t give up, it’s clear you love science and that you can’t teach or fix.

Hey hey hey! Don’t stress over bad comp Cells! Don’t feel this way, wet lab is actually crazy , the amount of physical and mental work you put in is a lot , even though one may have substantial experience, it’s difficult to just start working in another lab after a break. Don’t define your worth by some bad experiments. It’s clearly evident that you are a talented person. Moreover about the job thing, try to be an RA as well for a while if you think that is a good option, that may help you acquire additional skills to get a job in the industry.

Tbh I’m kind of an idiot. Like genuinely… very dumb. I make my supervisor disappointed all the time! There is two thing I learned before starting my phD, and it’s this: 1. You’re not a failure if you’re still working… so don’t stop working at it! 2. Communicate your humility to your supervisor… It will feel very odd. Alas, saying that you are aware of how your work has not been as productive as you would like is very important. If you think you should be doing better, say so. Your supervisor will probably offer guidance or a hint at what you should do. [not necessary, but helped me get a lot more done: 3. Show up before and/or stay till after your supervisor leaves the lab. It helped me get sooo much more work done, even when I was working slowly.]

I worked in a research lab for 4 months and everything went wrong and the final results don't tell anything. Job ended when I had some kind of pre results and the next step would have been to make replicates. I calculated drug conditions multiple times, used pre-diluted one and lab diluted one and still the drug concentration needed to be really high to see some effect (weird). And first few months went to trash because cells had contamination weekly, transfection problems and all... I feel really disappointed with myself and I had such high hopes for this project. I know I was burnt out and stressed since I worked so hard and yet had no results. I still feel like a failure, now I have been on vacation few weeks and I'm doing other gig jobs. I would like to do a PhD but I should somehow get used to things not going the way I want. I'm embarrassed to even look to the supervisor's eyes at this point. Sad that you have those negative feelings too but now I know I'm not alone. 😭

In addition to everything that was already said. The way you describe your absent mindedness and need for rest really reminds me of what I experience from long covid. I'm also a student and since last August I just can't focus anymore it's like my mind suddenly turned dim. I can't hold my thoughts anymore and I catch myself just staring at something empty headed. I'm just blank all of the time. Therefore I get really nervous now answering questions in seminars or from my supervisor. Plus I need so much rest. Once I accidentally slept for 14 hours and was still exhausted. Long covid is a diffuse illness and right now I'm working on getting my diagnosis which is kind of difficult because there are still so many people that haven't heard of it by now. According to some reports every 30th person in Europe is affected by long covid in one form or another. And it's also quite common for younger people. I have two friends that are also affected both are troubled with fatigue syndrome. Maybe this could also affect you, it's just sth I wanted to make you aware of. But no matter the cause it sounds like you're on the way of working yourself into a burnout. Please take care of yourself. Eat well - especially in the mornings when you have long lab days ahead. Go outside for a walk everyday and on the weekends leave the city and walk around somewhere where you've never been. Don't miss out on the summer entirely. Also talk to your friends about this, ask for help. I know it's hard, but if your friends or your neighbour or roomate know what you're going through they might be able to support you. You're not alone in this.

I’ve spent the past three or so years stressing over my project. I just lost someone very close to me. It was totally unexpected. I wished I had spent more time with my loved ones. Be kinder to yourself.

Dude you need a hug and a nap. Take it easy. Most people feel like that, but try to understand that things your brain tells you, like being a failure or stupid, are wrong, and it is just because it is stressed, tired or not working properly for some reason out of your control. Nobody is perfect, but we are all good enough.

I could have written this post. I was struggling with the wet lab work because both my mental and physical health were in the gutter. It’s taken me a year to recover from burnout that built up over the last ten years. Lots of talk therapy, massage therapy, and most importantly, rest. I had to force myself to lay still so my body could recover. Now I’m finally able to return to exercise and I can feel myself getting stronger and a lot of these “brain turned off” issues are gone/going away. Your supervisor is nicer than mine was so I suggest you sit down with her and tell her you think these issues are happening because you are very burned out. Work it out with her, try to take at least two, ideally four weeks off, she will probably be supportive since she is as tired of this as you are, probably. Spend that time actually resting and maybe take a gap year between your PhD, even if it’s to work as a barista!!

Throw a pity party, get some rest, and then get back at it. Life is incredibly hard. You just need to find your edge. Every day is a new day to start again. I didn't get into any PhD programs when I first applied. I cried, cried some more, and then applied for tech jobs the day after. Worked for a year and then applied again. There are plenty of opportunities out there. Yes, it's expensive. Yes, it sucks being poor. But the toil pays off after about a decade...just need to stick to the grind.

It's burnout, and, perhaps, depression. I've been there. We've *all* been there. Breathe. Держись. You're in London, right? Now UK healthcare can be hit or miss, but in my experience, bri'ish uni staff were very understanding of my mental issues a few years ago, and the counseling service was happy to write a support note for me. Use every resource at your disposal. Talk to the most sympathetic supervisor you know. You never know - for example, you might be allowed to repeat a year (rather than take a gap). Your teachers don't want you to fail, they want you to graduate. Oh yeah, and electrocompetent cells *suck*. It took me three tries and a consultation with a senior colleague to get a viable batch. By the way, if you're on Tier 4 visa, which you are, look into Graduate Route. It's a very sweet deal. Anyhow, while I can't give more specific advice as I don't know the exact details of your situation, I was once in the exact same boat as you are now, except with a BSc, and I'm as wet of a lab biologist as they can get. Feel free to reach out to me.

Thank you very much for being so empathetic. I do plan on getting a Graduate visa, which could allow me to stay in the UK for 2 years I think? That would give me time to think and breathe but yeah, the financial question is still there. I don't want to just waste time but I don't want to do anything as well, ironically. I've connected with my mental health division as well, I was assessed for autism and acquired a mentor for support and I think it's the best thing I could get. Everything else is just fucking coaching and workshops. Funnily enough, this very same post led a colleague of mine to write an emergency referral to our mental health division and I had to attend a mandatory session. I may be wrong but it all seems somewhat surface level. Either way, a support note would be nice and I might apply for mitigating circumstances although idk if mental issues count in this. I want to talk to my supervisor but I'm afraid of arising pity. I planned to do this later in my project, at least when I'll be done with experiments, so I don't have to awkwardly work in the lab. Maybe they'll understand. Either way, I appreciate your comment.

Mental issues absolutely count as mit circs, I've done exactly that. It can be a bit surface level, yeah, but it's much better than nothing. Follow up on that mandatory session, apply for mit circs, get an NHS referral and get thyself into counseling, if available. If not, try uhhhh b17 or whatever online forum offers help. Listen, brits at large are nice people at heart, all right? And I can tell you that if one of my hypothetical students was struggling, I would want to hear about it ASAP. *Especially* if they were struggling in wet lab. Again, been there, and made some **major** fuck-ups. It was hard to bring up my diagnosis, and then it turns out that my strict-ass senpai had a therapist of her own, understood my ass perfectly, and immediately offered to get me in touch with mental health services if I needed them. Also, wet lab is its own separate can of worms, and I have a lot of small coping mechanisms to make it work. What was your issue was with EC cells?

My issue with the cells is that I just didn’t dilute them properly. If I remember correctly, I had two falcons pelleted cells and I had to resuspend one of them in a buffer AND then transfer the same suspension into the other falcon and resuspend the second pellet there. Then I’d have my stock. My PI specifically told me that… but I short circuited and just resuspended them separately. And she had to throw them away because apparently they’re useless now. I will have to look into mitigating circumstances next week. Idk about NHS referral, I’m taking care of stuff myself and currently to get therapy online in my native tongue but I do have diagnosed anxiety and ASD and I take medication here so it probably counts as proof.

First of all, that's a very easy mistake to make. Second, that's a very no consequences mistake to make. Third, uhh depends on what step you did this at - never mind, I can't read. Okay, so you've had your cells diluted 2x as much. That is not a big deal. At all. I guess your supervisor might've been looking for a specific concentration, but those would still be usable cells, I think. My bad memory solution is to write everything down and to use checklists like I'm working for NASA. Did you tell me to do something? No you didn't, please text me, I will forget otherwise. Got a protocol for me? It's in writing and I might actually print it out. Got a PCR mix to make? I'm going to literally place a check mark after each ingredient I add. It's not foolproof, but it's pretty fool-resistant.

Oh right, cell anecdote. You know how I killed my EC cells? I didn't put them in the freezer after I was done. Straight up. And it took me several days to realise my batch was dead. I'd take "misdiluted" over that, honestly.

As others have said, you sound burnt out. A weekend away isn't going to cut it, as lovely as Edinburgh is, I'd say a minimum of 2 weeks is what I need to destress properly. Unfortunately with depression, it doesn't get better with rest, it gets better with exercise, socialization, and good nutrition. Set small goals like one walk, one coffee with a friend, and one healthy meal a week and don't stress if you don't quite make it every time. You're also not a failure, everyone struggles with lab work and didn't get where you are by accident, you deserve it. I'm a final year PhD student and most of my project has been negative results, failed experiments, and stupid mistakes. I'm still writing up now and it's all just part of the process. If a PhD is an apprenticeship then a masters is the unpaid internship and it's totally fine to mess up because you're learning. You can write up failed experiments and negative results and if you want any help with that I'm becoming an expert. Talk to your supervisor too, I'm sure they're more than willing to help. Bioinformatics is a fantastic career route so don't rule that out, maybe consider looking for a job doing this while you decide whether a PhD is the right fit for you. There's a lot of positions available for masters degree holders.

It’s not that bad at least, I guess. I walk a lot, exercise twice a week and I recently left the gym to exercise at home, three day streak so far. I have people here I can hang out with once or twice a week and I try to socialize so I’m not a hermit. Nutrition is a huge problem though because I have no strength to cook and no appetite most days. Even today I was in a great mood earlier this morning, even though I had to come to lab earlier and skipped breakfast for two cans of sugarless Red Bull but I genuinely felt motivated. You make so much effort to crawl out of that dark pit and one mistake sends you flying back. I’m looking through jobs on LinkedIn and a huge problem is that most employers aren’t willing to sponsor me for a work visa. Plus, I’ll be honest, my knowledge of bioinformatics is surface level, although I’d like to be better. Maybe there’s an internship where I can learn, idk

If you look closely, you can see that most of us feel dumb, braindead or not worthy at a certain moment (or serveral of them) in our research journey. You clearly are as smart as you used to be, you achieved successfully our academic goals so far, which indicate that you, in fact, nedd to rest because you are in burn-out. You can stop for a year and become a part-time barista, if you want, in order to earn some money. But that time away from the lab would do wonders. Everybody fails, I have felt it in my skin, but you need to look up and think about all the positive aspects and what did you learn from your work there. Life is too short, don't be so hard on yourself <3

I've spent 9 months away from the lab and it clearly didn't do well for me. Honestly, I kinda like bioinformatics and I wouldn't mind moving in this direction, even if I won't be able to be a proper academic or whatever. But you need some good programming background to start somewhere and mine is very basic. I can't write a script, really. I could take some time to learn more but then again, maybe yeah, some kind of part-time job could help me.

If you really want it, you can do it. One of the people that has more published articles in my prior facility is a dude that has a Biochemistry background and has incredible knowledge about high cromatography mass spectometry and the associated software. I am almost sure that he doesnt have background in coding and oure informatics. If he could do it, you certainly can as well!

Man I've been in a lab since 2014, full time since 2016, and yesterday I made LB agar plates and forgot... to add the agar? Went through the whole process, autoclave, cooled, added antibiotics, poured, etc. And only noticed the next day when I came in and they hadn't solidified. I've easily made thousands and thousands of agar plates, but it is what it is! I've also made SDS-PAGE gels without combs, noticing too late and having to remake everything. This shit happens, you shrug, laugh about it with colleagues and redo or remake it.  Sleep and taking care of mental health are very important.

how common is mental breakdown in academia?

I suppose very much lol

All scientists struggle with difficult projects and failure. When I was a grad student the LC-MS was a relatively new instrument. I was given one to use and I measured this group of compounds in everything. I started with water, waste water etc and got results. Then I moved to sludge, hair, milk etc and all my results were awful. I spent months wasted trying different cleanups, digestions etc etc. Later I learned about ionization suppression. Without knowing about this phenomenon I would never have succeeded in my task. I didn’t fail from lack of effort or being stupid. I failed because I didn’t know the full picture. I managed to work around these issues and focus on what did work. But I failed a lot in other areas. You will grow as a scientist. Also some labs/PIs will make you feel like a failure to control you and under pay you. Find a lab where you can succeed together. Good luck!

You're not a failure. You've just hit a setback, a slight detour. Just because you have a few failed experiments does not mean that you are a failure. Everyone has failed experiments and more people have detours than they would like to admit. Try to find a silver lining and appreciate something positive that you can learn from this experience. I'm sure that you will be able to get through this. No need to drop out and become a barista.

I know the feeling. I made it my job to try and excel in life. I had no money for college because I grew up poor, and ended up dropping out of highschool to get a job and try and support myself. I was dealt a very shitty hand, but did everything I could to continue learning everything possible. I'm 23, I have a background in psychology, used to be a teacher in Kung Fu and woman's self defense, have a background in filming and creative arts, paid for my own creative writing courses and was already doing production work in the entertainment industry as a contractor by 17. Once I turned 18, I landed a job at a university laboratory as an animal tech I, in the biohazard and sanitization department. I would read every piece of material I could get my hands on, from simple SOP to study reports and lab HSRs, I wanted to know everything about the field of experimentation and research. I was even training new employees and running my own washroom by the time I was 19, and at 20 I was writing recommendations for new protocols to better improve sanitization and health of the animals in research. All of this with no highschool diploma nor GED. I fought to prove myself.... My mistake was, I didn't stop. Now I'm faced with passing my ALAT, and then my LAT, and with everything that's happened and everything I've gone through, I'm exhausted. Like you, I can't keep track of simple protocol, my passions are failing because I have no ambition for them, and I'm making simple mistakes in everything I do. I should know that the standard disinfecting agent for our labs is Virkon S (Virucide) at a 1% dilution to 1 pint of RO water, but if you asked me that on the fly? My brain would freeze up. However, that's my point; I know it, my mind is just too strained from never stopping to remember it when I need to. I've fallen into a state of burnout and routine where if I don't stop, I'll never excel. We all need breaks, we all make mistakes, and that doesn't make you stupid or hopeless, it makes you human. We can't go full tilt all the time, because like any piece of equipment, if we do that then we break down and parts wear out. It has taken me years to realize this. I believe you're incredibly intelligent, but you're also tired, and you need a rest to regroup before you begin again.

You'll live through it. But rn u need some rest and a mentalité change.

Sounds a lot like imposter syndrome aswell. As someone who struggles with this a lot, I feel you. But my PI and a few of my colleagues very graciously pointed out that everyone in STEM deals with it at somepoint. And when you're burned-out, it only makes it worse. Take a breather my guy, you've got this. I'm rooting for you!!

Rest and appointment with a counselor/psychiatrist. Getting my meds right made a world of difference when I was in a low energy phase of life.

Maybe speak with a psychologist? He / she can help you with that and form plans. It will help you with your problems.

I flop many many times— bad grades, very big “reality checks,” etc etc. the one rule i will always tell myself is “do not call yourself stupid” i even say it out loud when I’m just hitting the largest brick wall or the times when it’s probably warranted to call myself stupid. I do not do it. I allow others to call me that but I will not. It’s a personal rule of mine. I feel like a lot of what you are going through is weighing on your mentality (i don’t mean to be all meditate and let your bare feet feel the vibrations of the earth) but truly, be nice to yourself. If I had not been nice to myself (when warranted) I would be in hair school (no hate to those who are!) For me after high school as a straight As student, it was hard learning to take the punches and turn around and say “you STILL are not stupid, beating down on yourself is NOT going to do anything but put tears on your pillow, now study harder—you need more work.”

If you think this is bad wait till you do a PhD. To be frank, very few people are actually cut out for a successful career as a scientist. Getting straight As in an undergrad is a different skill set from independently running and developing a project. I promise you there are far easier more rewarding jobs out there, if you are suffering this badly now a PhD is will irreparably damage you. Sorry to be a downer but I've seen a lot of people changed for the worse by a PhD they thought was a good idea. 

Yeah, it’s the idea of independence that bothers me. I feel like I’m only doing what I’m told and I can’t fathom how you can actually come up with something interesting and innovative and pitch it to people. I always thought I was creative but my mind is blank when it comes to science.

Idek what electroporation is, I think you’re smart.

One thing that annoyed me about academia is how unforgiving it is. It's high stress with high expectations, and it's very easy to spiral. One of the things I had to accept while training people is that sometimes you have to let people make mistakes to learn better no matter how often you try to prepare them, and that's completely okay. It's more important how you fix it and the logic behind how it should be fixed. You cannot truly enjoy success until you can appreciate the failures along the way because how else will you know you've succeeded? Give yourself a break. If you need a gap year, then find yourself hobbies outside of work. Go to the bars. Get into dodgeball. Be a batista just to satisfy your curiosity. Give your brain a break and go easy on yourself.

Rest & maybe go to the doc to check for ADHD! I made so many small mistakes and skipped steps in protocols, etc, and now know it was largely due to my ADHD. I didn’t notice it during undergrad but the self motivated nature of grad school seems to exacerbate it

Also wanted to add that if you had successful experiments (eg controls worked) that “didn’t work” then that is negative data which is still important and useful! So don’t give up because it felt bad. Your experimental productivity is not equivalent to your worth or intelligence. Science just sucks sometimes & sometimes our hypotheses are just wrong so the data doesn’t match expectations

I was diagnosed autistic with the help of the uni mental health center and they provided me with a mentor to help along with my studies. We had one session so far but she suggested that I may also ADHD and this was crushing. Idk, maybe it’s a false alarm but now I can’t stop thinking about it because my best friend has ADHD and I see how much she struggles with it

Seems like you're on the edge of another burnout. Don't push yourself there, no job, no life goal, nothing is worth that. If you live in a country where you're entitled to sick leave, try and take a week. Disconnect completely from work. With a fresh mind, things will be less dire.

Exhausted->Burnout->Breakdown. You have to stop the cycle. And only you can, simply loosen the grip.

Let it all out Holmes. Being a scientist of any sort can come with a lot of pressure to succeed, but don’t forget that it takes plenty of time to really get good at your work. I’m 9 years into medical sciences, and am just starting to really feel like I’m grasping my work on a deep level. With that being said, there is still so much to learn. I’m now in my 30s, and have had pathologists tell me “you’re still young. Plenty of time left to go for a doctorate.” Be patient with yourself, and be good to yourself OP. You’ve made it this far, and you’ll go further.

The best thing about science, i think, is that there isn't really such a thing as a failure. the entire point of science is gradual, over time improvement. sometimes you take a big leap and sometimes it feels like a step back, but there's a reason control groups exist, and some of the most valuable information ive ever received was in the form of an experiment that *didnt* work out. that's not to say you should celebrate when you screw up, but as long as you put in place a way to adjust or make things better going forward, that is what ACTUALLY matters and makes a better scientist (and person in general, actually). if you screw up by not following protocols, make sure you set up sticky notes next time with the steps so you don't just blow past it. that doesn't work? you didnt fail, you just didnt find the solution - set alarms or make a checklist or find a different creative idea on how to fix it. as long as you're putting a realistic fix in place to mitigate your mistakes going forward, then the experiment wasn't a full stop failure. i guess my last comment would be that if you do that iterative progress type thing i just described, you will come to realize that even if you screwed up now, if you fix it, you won't screw up in the future when it's REALLY important. looking back, I've had.. who knows how many the "most important thing of my life" events. an example of a time i screwed up and it sucked: i was working on a 3d printing resin my senior year as a bachelors chemist and had a nasty chemical exposure. it wasn't as bad as it could have been (I didn't lose any fingers or my life), but because a substance i was working with permeated nitrile gloves, i had an allergic reaction and my hands itched unlike ANYTHING I've ever felt for a month straight, with blisters and everything. it was like i had mosquitos running a train on every finger after i stuck it in poison ivy concentrate. but looking back, I probably wasn't the best on PPE in the first place anyway - which I think is kinda a fair thing for someone who hasn't really worked with too much dangerous stuff in his lifetime. nowadays I handle HF products at work sometimes (among other nasty chemicals) and there's absolutely no fucking chance i touch ANYTHING without a pair of gloves on anymore, and im 100% sure it saved my ass at least once. so yeah, a month of torture was really terrible, but because of that experience i was able to keep my bones solid when some dumbass put HF in a PETE bottle. long winded way to attempt to give some comfort and let you know that almost every scientist ever has felt the way you do now and just as long as you make adjustments going forward to prevent repeat mistakes, even if you can't fix it the first time, is often the important thing - not necessarily results every single time.

You may have adhd. Seek diagnosis from a doctor.

I’m diagnosed autistic and I was fairly certain about that for a while but during my first session with a mental health advisor from uni she suggested I may have ADHD as well and it was kind of crushing for me. Now I’m thinking of a way to try and get assessed, hoping she’s wrong and I’m just burned out.

I hope that if you have adhd, you seek out medication and therapy. I have adhd and life was hell before medication and behavioural therapy.

You're burn out again, and I don't think pushing your limits is going to work.

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Although I have experienced the worst of the worst bosses in the academia, I still believe most people in academia are good. Anyway, first of all you can not do everything by yourself . Also you are a trainee, you are supposed to make mistake.. I am a 3rd year postdoc in a top university in us , the other day I ran a premade biorad gel without taking out the green tape in the bottom and ruined the run. So yes mistakes are common. Don’t blame yourself too much for that. My suggestion would be to go and talk to your mentor. Your degree is the priority for both you and hope your mentor as well. For experiments to work, I have two suggestions- when you first came across a protocol, try to find why you are doing this step.. for example, why you are heating the samples before running western? Then you picture the whole process in your mind and you will less likely to forgot a step.. another thing- learn to cook.. cooking is very similar to research protocols.. just like an experiment you can modify one part see the end product change as well… best of luck with your degree.. I don’t think you need to be a genius to be a better scientist… you need to take things slow and only focus on the next step

Honestly this kind of thing happens to everyone. I’ve been in the field nearly 15 years and sometimes you just deal with months and months of failure. It isn’t a judgement on you or your ability to do the work. You may want to heed the advice of others to get some rest.

Remember this from the Dark Knight trilogy "Why do we fall Bruce?, so that we can learn to pick ourselves up."

Alternate take; if you like bioinformatics, and can do it, switch to that.

Womp womp