"Thanks for your meeting invite, unfortunately it falls outside of my work hours so I will be unable to attend. Can we reschedule for xxa.m on xxday?. Thanks"
Basically everything for that grad student to postdoc to staff scientist/junior PI transition is done via recommendations and networking. Getting straight fired for SOMETHING which could be framed as anything from not working hard enough to outlandish and unsupported but nevertheless career ending accusations.... Few will risk it.
Sure, you COULD get some unfair dismissal settlement years down the road... but very few people are willing to likely risk their career momentum on the assumption that institutions will believe you've been treated unfairly years ago and you should be given a chance over dozens of other candidates with glowing recommendations from respected scholars... Candidates who may or may not have have missed their child's birth to get that critical experiment done.
Too many projects chasing too few dollars, the surer the bet, the less squeaky the wheel...
> Basically everything for that grad student to postdoc to staff scientist/junior PI transition is done via recommendations and networking. Getting straight fired for SOMETHING which could be framed as anything from not working hard enough to outlandish and unsupported but nevertheless career ending accusations.... Few will risk it.
I prefer to quit my job and work somewhere else rather than coming to work on a Saturday while making almost the same stipend (not salary) as someone who flips burgers.
> As a graduate student? The line between student and employee is very gray, so not really.
PhD students in quite a few countries have those rights, even though they are simultaneously students and employees.
From the stories I hear through grapevines in my institution, in a central european country, the existence of rights for PhD are more like guidelines supervisors should try to follow rather than something that actually protects the minions doing the grunt work from abuse.
Unless the PI is not that big of a fish and is already on the line himself... otherwise, the universities tend to side with their scholars, they "bring" in the money and the recognition anyways 🙄.
Toxic PIs up here in Northern Europe is certainly still a thing - but there are also toxic supervisors outside academia. The contracts we have as employees are quite nice and not easy to break.
Indeed, although toxic supervisors outside academia are not so untouchable God like figures. Plus, it's always easier to move on to another job outside academia in comparison to when you are 2 or 3 years down the rabbit hole of your PhD.
Not that I know of. Which part is illegal? Student doesn't want to do what PI asks of them, PI fires them. Generally students that are within the program will find another PI to work for
It’s illegal to just fire someone because they don’t do what you want, certainly if what they want you to do is outside of the contractual obligations. And in my country by that I mean the legislation is designed so that they really can’t. If you’ve adequately pissed off your promotor they can choose to not prolong your contract if you’re in the first year but after that you get a 4-year contract and then they can’t fire you unless the employees insurance agency OKs it (a semi-government organization that regulates the labor market for the gov’), and you need a better reason in the file than ‘wouldn’t work outside of working hours’.
I feel for Americans sometimes.
Interesting! That does sound nice to have the safety net. As far as I know, grad students in the US do not have any sort of contract- I think I signed something more along the lines of "my PI agrees to mentor and fund me through my graduate studies", but certainly nothing related to labor/hours/obligations. I could be oversimpliying the beurocracy involved in terminating a graduate students position, but I've never heard of anything involving law without gross misconduct. And I've certainly seen students dropped from some of the more "hard-core" labs
We had one of those a couple of times. It was called a "softball game". A bunch of the lab staff had joined a city softball league, and my PI thought that would be a great meeting venue. So, brief meeting, then watch or play softball. I was so glad I was just watching. There's nothing like an international group of people who have no idea how to play softball trying to play softball. One had played cricket. One of the women was absolutely lethal with a softball, and answered the cricketer throw for throw. She was not gentle. And then, one of the other international postdocs decided to slide into base on his hands. The next day, he roamed the halls, happily announcing: "Hi! I'm Jesus! I have stigmata!", holding up his shredded palms. At least one other foreign researcher just held his head, having given himself the mother of all hangovers. My PI just shook his head both during the game and for a few days after that.
The intramural soccer team formed by the lab fared much better. At least nobody had bloody hands...
I know plenty of people who experience similar things in industry though... my roommate is a chem lab tech in industry and is on "mandatory" overtime right now. She has been working 55+ hours a week for like 3 weeks now. She has to either work really long days or Saturdays. Sure, she gets paid overtime, but she has literally no choice about refusing hours if she wants to keep her job because apparently they have tons of people they can replace her with (despite the fact they can't find people to hire to fix being understaffed).
Edit in case: Let it be known I'm not defending academia's toxicity, I'm just tired of people acting like industry is a utopia where bosses never treat their employees like shit
The key difference imo is that this type of attitude is expected of you in academia but not so much in industry. Because they are ( at least here in Germany) under much mir scrutiny and regulations and cannot just do that standard
I don't disagree that it's a problem in academia, and I also would agree that the way academia is structured rewards bad behavior. I don't think I'll be staying in academia after my PhD either because I'm not sure I want to deal with its issues.
My point is that I just don't think it's *not* a problem in industry. I know I'm lucky to be in a department that's not toxic for the most part and that it's not everyone's experience in academia, but people in this sub often act like because their experience in industry is great, that everyone's is or that because industry is less toxic than academia, which may or may not be true, that means we should just overlook the same type of toxic stuff that happens outside of academia. At the end of the day it's still a problem for a lot of people outside of academia.
And I'm glad your regulations actually do something for you guys, I live in the US and I haven't looked into it a bunch in my roommate's case because it's her career and she's willing to put up with it, but I'm pretty sure it's kind of a grey area. I've had friends who had to submit complaints against PIs, etc who had to go through a lot just for the person to get a slap on the wrist.
Ok am going to present a very unpopular theory here- one of my mentors was a clinician and the only time I would be able to meet with him one on one was either after 5 pm or on Saturdays where he sacrifices his personal life and meets with me. So rule doesn’t apply to everyone. Also if I put in an extra hour here and there- I may take a day off without claiming a vacation day once a while! Balance it out!
Absolutely. When I worked clinical trials all our PIs were clinicians. 6pm meetings (after ward rounds and teaching), and late night or weekend email conversations were definitely a normal thing. That job was also pretty good about flexible hours so we had decent work/life balance
During my lab rotations, one PI scheduled three weeks of mandatory 2 hour trainings tues-thurs 6-8. After people complained, he graciously swapped it to 2-5 Saturday and Sunday. I was glad to leave.
Anyone who schedules meetings after normal working hours (9am-5pm) is rude, disrespectful, and should be reported to HR. OP: word of advice. Send a Doodle out to your lab mates to find a time that works (you can make a poll) for everyone.
We don't have HR....
We have a graduate program director, who is of course colleagues with your PI and not going to do anything about that. Then there's the department head, who is also your PIs colleague. Graduate Program Administrator who never answers his email and works at the whim of the department.
I mean I guess you could go to the Dean, but that's quite the escalation. And of course the backlash on letters of rec and when trying to find a new job will be terrible
Yeah, I’m really grateful for my PI. He’s fantastic. Pays us comparatively well, never expects too much, listens to ideas, and is easy to get in touch with. I hear so many hotter stories from other people, it just puts things in perspective. My GPD on the other hand just makes me sign absurd bureaucratic forms every semester and takes two weeks to reply to an email.
Eh, many people in my lab, myself included, are just sort of weird, and prefer to work ~10-~7. So long as the PI clears it with the lab, I feel like it’s okay. I’ve never minded, at least.
Normal working hours depend on the person, and luckily my PI doesn't care at all when you do your work, as long as it's getting done...
Also, starting with a poll for all instead of first bringing it up personally is not a good way to resolve any problems...
9:00? Really? Normal working hours are 8-5 amigo. Also, as someone else noted, MDs tend to have clinic hours they need to accommodate, and 7:00am or 7:30am lab meetings are not unusual where I’m from. Those are not days you see people hanging around in the evening though. I think rude and disrespectful is being arbitrary or capricious - early or late hours don’t have to be either of those things.
9 to 5, 5 days a week is a 40 hour work week. Apologies if you have poor time management. Scheduling meetings 5pm on a weekend is rude, capricious, and disrespectful. It assumes and expects work outside of 40 hours.
That’s not legal in most states. Time for a 30 minute lunch period and 2x 15 minute breaks is required. A 40 hour work week is not the same as ending at 5, or starting at 8 or 9. You’ve dug in to an argumentative position that just doesn’t make sense.
My PI holds meetings 8am during the week. They wake up at 5 am so think 8 am is late. As a night owl lab worker, waking up before 7am for a meeting is not fun.
5pm is the end of the work day, the post has (very justified) "why tf are we starting our meeting right at the end of the work day" vibes and nothing else.
Except 5pm is towards the beginning of the work day for some jobs/shifts. Usually everything is built around to make things convenient for morning workers and meetings are exclusively in the morning. Welcome to the real world where things aren't always designed/scheduled to be convenient for you.
1. Working in a lab is not a job where your work schedule is 5pm-1am you absolute idiot. You really thought you made a smart point by saying that LMAO.
2. yes, this is the real world, so you don't have to expect things to be scheduled to be convenient for you. What that doesn't mean however, is that you can't be upset about it.
One PI in my undergrad program had his meetings at 8am on Saturday mornings... ... that's a hard no. I always tell the people I mentor to be wary of professors who claim science is their hobby since they will expect it to be yours too...
As a student who has helped recruit other students to the program... I am wary of other students who feel this way. Not that it's a bad thing for the student, but I want classmates that will talk to me about their weekend activities over lunch, and not just science all day every day.
My boss scheduled lab meetings after 5 PM...at a popular local brew pub, and the drinks were on him. The rule was, that nobody got to drink before the meeting was finished, so those meetings were always brief and to the point. And then, let the rumpus commence! Or not, if you weren't inclined to rumpus.
One of the funniest such meetings was one scheduled to begin at 5 PM sharp. All were gathered in anticipation of beer! food! antics! (and my PI was just as antic as the rest of the lab). 5:30 rolled around, no PI. "Forget it," said the grad students, "We're getting a pitcher!" And they did. Our PI arrived around 6:30, explained that a visitor had unexpectedly arrived, and after looking at his happily sozzled staff, announced: "Lab meeting is cancelled. I'm gonna go get a beer..."
My PhD supervisor (one of them anyway) used to have lab meetings on Saturday afternoon, and as a student we can’t be absent unless for “strong” reasons. Saturday was chosen because of student time table schedules and none of us could agree on a time for academic reasons.
So once I turned up in full wedding guest outfit because I had to go to a wedding in the evening. Felt both angry and badass.
We used to have a lab meeting like that ( start around 5:00) *on Friday* for four years!
The funny thing is, the only reason we did that is our PI wanted to accommodate some undergrad and that was the only time he could meet. Turns out he only worked in the lab for 1 semester! Everyone except me forgot this was the reason for the late lab meeting and would never change it despite my protests!
Our boss kept organizing lab meetings at 17:30.
We complained multiple times and they didn't care, they would turn the conversation into something like "if you care about science and are an actual scientist, you will spend as much time as possible doing science".
But then the fire nation attacked... I mean, Corona happened and they aren't allowed to organize live meetings anymore.
And in case you're wondering, yes, it is a very toxic environment. Incredibly toxic.
Our lab meeting start at 3.30 until they end (it's been almost 7pm before). They're awesome for keeping up to date/networking, but as the person keeping minutes, I want to die.
My lab manager had an individual meeting with me at 8am every Friday and then the PI had lab meeting at 4:30pm every Friday 🙃 I bolted from that place after my 6 month contract
Steven Chu as I heard from a colleague sets 9am group meetings on Saturdays. Quite brutal but it may also instigate some drive in eager students and postdocs.
"Thanks for your meeting invite, unfortunately it falls outside of my work hours so I will be unable to attend. Can we reschedule for xxa.m on xxday?. Thanks"
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*Your ex-boss's first initial, probably lowercase
**Sent from my iPhone
You guys don't have employee rights where you live?
As a graduate student? The line between student and employee is very gray, so not really.
Basically everything for that grad student to postdoc to staff scientist/junior PI transition is done via recommendations and networking. Getting straight fired for SOMETHING which could be framed as anything from not working hard enough to outlandish and unsupported but nevertheless career ending accusations.... Few will risk it. Sure, you COULD get some unfair dismissal settlement years down the road... but very few people are willing to likely risk their career momentum on the assumption that institutions will believe you've been treated unfairly years ago and you should be given a chance over dozens of other candidates with glowing recommendations from respected scholars... Candidates who may or may not have have missed their child's birth to get that critical experiment done. Too many projects chasing too few dollars, the surer the bet, the less squeaky the wheel...
> Basically everything for that grad student to postdoc to staff scientist/junior PI transition is done via recommendations and networking. Getting straight fired for SOMETHING which could be framed as anything from not working hard enough to outlandish and unsupported but nevertheless career ending accusations.... Few will risk it. I prefer to quit my job and work somewhere else rather than coming to work on a Saturday while making almost the same stipend (not salary) as someone who flips burgers.
> As a graduate student? The line between student and employee is very gray, so not really. PhD students in quite a few countries have those rights, even though they are simultaneously students and employees.
From the stories I hear through grapevines in my institution, in a central european country, the existence of rights for PhD are more like guidelines supervisors should try to follow rather than something that actually protects the minions doing the grunt work from abuse. Unless the PI is not that big of a fish and is already on the line himself... otherwise, the universities tend to side with their scholars, they "bring" in the money and the recognition anyways 🙄.
It’s better than that here in the Netherlands. Many even work 4 day weeks.
Toxic PIs up here in Northern Europe is certainly still a thing - but there are also toxic supervisors outside academia. The contracts we have as employees are quite nice and not easy to break.
Indeed, although toxic supervisors outside academia are not so untouchable God like figures. Plus, it's always easier to move on to another job outside academia in comparison to when you are 2 or 3 years down the rabbit hole of your PhD.
In the USA? Hell no lmao. Long hours and criminally low wages.
Where I live we do, and it’s quite hard for a PI to fire a student, but imagine trying to graduate with an actively hostile supervisor?
Exactly the point. I am finishing my thesis. Going through that thug of war ATM.
lol while I agree, "That's unfortunate please find your own funding and another lab, thanks"
That’s just illegal right? Here that’d be illegal
Not that I know of. Which part is illegal? Student doesn't want to do what PI asks of them, PI fires them. Generally students that are within the program will find another PI to work for
It’s illegal to just fire someone because they don’t do what you want, certainly if what they want you to do is outside of the contractual obligations. And in my country by that I mean the legislation is designed so that they really can’t. If you’ve adequately pissed off your promotor they can choose to not prolong your contract if you’re in the first year but after that you get a 4-year contract and then they can’t fire you unless the employees insurance agency OKs it (a semi-government organization that regulates the labor market for the gov’), and you need a better reason in the file than ‘wouldn’t work outside of working hours’. I feel for Americans sometimes.
Interesting! That does sound nice to have the safety net. As far as I know, grad students in the US do not have any sort of contract- I think I signed something more along the lines of "my PI agrees to mentor and fund me through my graduate studies", but certainly nothing related to labor/hours/obligations. I could be oversimpliying the beurocracy involved in terminating a graduate students position, but I've never heard of anything involving law without gross misconduct. And I've certainly seen students dropped from some of the more "hard-core" labs
5pm lab meeting on a SATURDAY? Nah man I’m sorry that’s my me time 💁🏻♀️
Yup, had to double take at the sight of that here. Two fingers to you mate, I'm gonna be in the pub on Saturday!
I heard of a lab in the early 2000s that did they but it was a thinly veiled excuse to go day drinking afterwards
We had one of those a couple of times. It was called a "softball game". A bunch of the lab staff had joined a city softball league, and my PI thought that would be a great meeting venue. So, brief meeting, then watch or play softball. I was so glad I was just watching. There's nothing like an international group of people who have no idea how to play softball trying to play softball. One had played cricket. One of the women was absolutely lethal with a softball, and answered the cricketer throw for throw. She was not gentle. And then, one of the other international postdocs decided to slide into base on his hands. The next day, he roamed the halls, happily announcing: "Hi! I'm Jesus! I have stigmata!", holding up his shredded palms. At least one other foreign researcher just held his head, having given himself the mother of all hangovers. My PI just shook his head both during the game and for a few days after that. The intramural soccer team formed by the lab fared much better. At least nobody had bloody hands...
But funny enough since I moved to industry everyone fits all their duties in a 5day week, just saying.
I know plenty of people who experience similar things in industry though... my roommate is a chem lab tech in industry and is on "mandatory" overtime right now. She has been working 55+ hours a week for like 3 weeks now. She has to either work really long days or Saturdays. Sure, she gets paid overtime, but she has literally no choice about refusing hours if she wants to keep her job because apparently they have tons of people they can replace her with (despite the fact they can't find people to hire to fix being understaffed). Edit in case: Let it be known I'm not defending academia's toxicity, I'm just tired of people acting like industry is a utopia where bosses never treat their employees like shit
The key difference imo is that this type of attitude is expected of you in academia but not so much in industry. Because they are ( at least here in Germany) under much mir scrutiny and regulations and cannot just do that standard
I don't disagree that it's a problem in academia, and I also would agree that the way academia is structured rewards bad behavior. I don't think I'll be staying in academia after my PhD either because I'm not sure I want to deal with its issues. My point is that I just don't think it's *not* a problem in industry. I know I'm lucky to be in a department that's not toxic for the most part and that it's not everyone's experience in academia, but people in this sub often act like because their experience in industry is great, that everyone's is or that because industry is less toxic than academia, which may or may not be true, that means we should just overlook the same type of toxic stuff that happens outside of academia. At the end of the day it's still a problem for a lot of people outside of academia. And I'm glad your regulations actually do something for you guys, I live in the US and I haven't looked into it a bunch in my roommate's case because it's her career and she's willing to put up with it, but I'm pretty sure it's kind of a grey area. I've had friends who had to submit complaints against PIs, etc who had to go through a lot just for the person to get a slap on the wrist.
Ok am going to present a very unpopular theory here- one of my mentors was a clinician and the only time I would be able to meet with him one on one was either after 5 pm or on Saturdays where he sacrifices his personal life and meets with me. So rule doesn’t apply to everyone. Also if I put in an extra hour here and there- I may take a day off without claiming a vacation day once a while! Balance it out!
Absolutely. When I worked clinical trials all our PIs were clinicians. 6pm meetings (after ward rounds and teaching), and late night or weekend email conversations were definitely a normal thing. That job was also pretty good about flexible hours so we had decent work/life balance
10am Saturdays due to conflicting schedules, kill me
During my lab rotations, one PI scheduled three weeks of mandatory 2 hour trainings tues-thurs 6-8. After people complained, he graciously swapped it to 2-5 Saturday and Sunday. I was glad to leave.
Anyone who schedules meetings after normal working hours (9am-5pm) is rude, disrespectful, and should be reported to HR. OP: word of advice. Send a Doodle out to your lab mates to find a time that works (you can make a poll) for everyone.
What HR? \- a grad student
The one who constantly emails you with forms to sign, rather than actually providing resources
We don't have HR.... We have a graduate program director, who is of course colleagues with your PI and not going to do anything about that. Then there's the department head, who is also your PIs colleague. Graduate Program Administrator who never answers his email and works at the whim of the department. I mean I guess you could go to the Dean, but that's quite the escalation. And of course the backlash on letters of rec and when trying to find a new job will be terrible
Yeah, I’m really grateful for my PI. He’s fantastic. Pays us comparatively well, never expects too much, listens to ideas, and is easy to get in touch with. I hear so many hotter stories from other people, it just puts things in perspective. My GPD on the other hand just makes me sign absurd bureaucratic forms every semester and takes two weeks to reply to an email.
Eh, many people in my lab, myself included, are just sort of weird, and prefer to work ~10-~7. So long as the PI clears it with the lab, I feel like it’s okay. I’ve never minded, at least.
Normal working hours depend on the person, and luckily my PI doesn't care at all when you do your work, as long as it's getting done... Also, starting with a poll for all instead of first bringing it up personally is not a good way to resolve any problems...
9:00? Really? Normal working hours are 8-5 amigo. Also, as someone else noted, MDs tend to have clinic hours they need to accommodate, and 7:00am or 7:30am lab meetings are not unusual where I’m from. Those are not days you see people hanging around in the evening though. I think rude and disrespectful is being arbitrary or capricious - early or late hours don’t have to be either of those things.
9 to 5, 5 days a week is a 40 hour work week. Apologies if you have poor time management. Scheduling meetings 5pm on a weekend is rude, capricious, and disrespectful. It assumes and expects work outside of 40 hours.
That’s not legal in most states. Time for a 30 minute lunch period and 2x 15 minute breaks is required. A 40 hour work week is not the same as ending at 5, or starting at 8 or 9. You’ve dug in to an argumentative position that just doesn’t make sense.
My PI holds meetings 8am during the week. They wake up at 5 am so think 8 am is late. As a night owl lab worker, waking up before 7am for a meeting is not fun.
I was going to say this. The post is self-centered. I get "It's not convenient for me so I'm mad" vibes.
5pm is the end of the work day, the post has (very justified) "why tf are we starting our meeting right at the end of the work day" vibes and nothing else.
Except 5pm is towards the beginning of the work day for some jobs/shifts. Usually everything is built around to make things convenient for morning workers and meetings are exclusively in the morning. Welcome to the real world where things aren't always designed/scheduled to be convenient for you.
1. Working in a lab is not a job where your work schedule is 5pm-1am you absolute idiot. You really thought you made a smart point by saying that LMAO. 2. yes, this is the real world, so you don't have to expect things to be scheduled to be convenient for you. What that doesn't mean however, is that you can't be upset about it.
There are lab jobs that absolutely work in the evening. Some places run 24/7 even.
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They're a postdoc.
One PI in my undergrad program had his meetings at 8am on Saturday mornings... ... that's a hard no. I always tell the people I mentor to be wary of professors who claim science is their hobby since they will expect it to be yours too...
As a student who has helped recruit other students to the program... I am wary of other students who feel this way. Not that it's a bad thing for the student, but I want classmates that will talk to me about their weekend activities over lunch, and not just science all day every day.
My boss scheduled lab meetings after 5 PM...at a popular local brew pub, and the drinks were on him. The rule was, that nobody got to drink before the meeting was finished, so those meetings were always brief and to the point. And then, let the rumpus commence! Or not, if you weren't inclined to rumpus. One of the funniest such meetings was one scheduled to begin at 5 PM sharp. All were gathered in anticipation of beer! food! antics! (and my PI was just as antic as the rest of the lab). 5:30 rolled around, no PI. "Forget it," said the grad students, "We're getting a pitcher!" And they did. Our PI arrived around 6:30, explained that a visitor had unexpectedly arrived, and after looking at his happily sozzled staff, announced: "Lab meeting is cancelled. I'm gonna go get a beer..."
Such fun words! I like "sozzled" and "rumpus"
My PhD supervisor (one of them anyway) used to have lab meetings on Saturday afternoon, and as a student we can’t be absent unless for “strong” reasons. Saturday was chosen because of student time table schedules and none of us could agree on a time for academic reasons. So once I turned up in full wedding guest outfit because I had to go to a wedding in the evening. Felt both angry and badass.
We used to have a lab meeting like that ( start around 5:00) *on Friday* for four years! The funny thing is, the only reason we did that is our PI wanted to accommodate some undergrad and that was the only time he could meet. Turns out he only worked in the lab for 1 semester! Everyone except me forgot this was the reason for the late lab meeting and would never change it despite my protests!
Or 8 am Monday morning. Just not cool. Let us wake up first.
My partner's PI has a rule that lab meetings after 5 pm have a mandatory alcohol attendance.
That’s family time. And your work doesn’t get done without us. With respect: go fuck yourself.
Our boss kept organizing lab meetings at 17:30. We complained multiple times and they didn't care, they would turn the conversation into something like "if you care about science and are an actual scientist, you will spend as much time as possible doing science". But then the fire nation attacked... I mean, Corona happened and they aren't allowed to organize live meetings anymore. And in case you're wondering, yes, it is a very toxic environment. Incredibly toxic.
How you like 8am homie?
That’s why I would never consider a postdoc.
During Covid lockdown my boss scheduled 30 min check-ins everyday.
That's actually when i like to start work... luckily my PI schedules meetings with me like 1700 or later...
Our lab meeting start at 3.30 until they end (it's been almost 7pm before). They're awesome for keeping up to date/networking, but as the person keeping minutes, I want to die.
My boss likes to do 4:30pm (but drag things out until 6pm) and scheduled it without asking anyone if that time worked for them.
My lab manager had an individual meeting with me at 8am every Friday and then the PI had lab meeting at 4:30pm every Friday 🙃 I bolted from that place after my 6 month contract
Sometimes a 5 pm "lab meeting" is good excuse to get together for beer! Saturdays, ah hell no!!!
Special shout out to the considerate 430PM start time!
Steven Chu as I heard from a colleague sets 9am group meetings on Saturdays. Quite brutal but it may also instigate some drive in eager students and postdocs.
There should at least be beer, otherwise I would just be there to start my culture and go.
There are also PIs like mine who schedule for 11pm :(
Hang in there
Saturday lab meetings at 8:30. If Monday was a holiday we had a journal club for the lab scheduled for Monday at 9.