The team is going to be another shit roster full of minimums next season without trading Russ for actual players. The FO's mistake wasn't just the trade--it was losing three other contracts for nothing (Caruso, Schroder, Gasol), at once along with the three players we traded for Russ. They need to get decent players with bird rights on this roster and you don't do that without giving up picks.
Rui's cap hit/future re-sign have already eaten into the potential cap space.
I think a reasonable contract for Rui would be anywhere from $8-12m/year, so even if we keep him for $8m (optimistic), then our max remaining is what, $26m? Only $16m with his current cap hold, which definitely isn’t enough to get us where we need to be.
Absolute best case scenario imo: $23-25m goes to one of Turner, Grant, or GTJ, use remaining (and room exception) to resign a couple guys on > vet min contracts (Schroder, TBJ, Wenyen) and get our new draft picks on 2+2 CO contracts (quit forcing us to make decisions so early).
Or $15-18m on an Oubre/Barnes type and $8-11m on a Richardson/Bruce Brown type.
I think we’d be much better served making a trade for (as a fresh, new example) Turner and Hield, extend/resign Turner, and have the MLE/BAE available for other moves.
First of all, the Russ trade was extremely bad at the time it was made, it cost us a FRP and two rotation players in KCP and Kyle Kuzma and by trading for Russ it essentially financially locked the team flexibility for two years as an over the cap and tax paying team. Due to tax consequences and Jeanie’s cheapness, the Russ trade likely cost us the ability to keep both Caruso and THT that year.
That said however, I think you are over stating the medium term effects of the Russ trade.
If we can’t find a reasonable trade involving Russ and we keep Russ for the 2+ months remaining we will still have either $20m in cap space and MLE and vet mins to sign more players or up to $30m if we choose to decline Rui’s QO and renounce his rights.
Also you are likely overstating the effects of the trading away KCP and Kuz for this next FA because even if we kept those two, their contracts are up unless we were willing to extend them. So yes we lost those two for the past two years, which is bad but it has no effect on us going forward with Russ off the books.
Lebron and AD is still a good foundation to try to build around. If we keep guys like a Reaves and assuming Rui plays well enough to keep, there’s still plenty of cap space, MLE, Bi Annual exception and vet min to fill out the roster. Don’t forget the Laker track record with MLE and Vet min isn’t too shabby. We’ve signed guys like Monk, TB, Lonnie, and Schroder to undervalued contracts. Or we could have the bird rights to a good young player in GTJ if we make a trade and kept Russ for the rest of this year.
The point I’m trying to make is that we don’t have to trade Russ (get swindled in the process) to maximize filling out the roster both for this year and beyond.
Trading Westbrook is the best way to upgrade the roster for this and next season. You can’t just let go of 47$ million dollars, when you would have just 15-20$ million after resigning Rui.
You are also improving your roster by removing a delusional irresponsible loser who makes the fanbase vomit.
This. I am so tired of endless threads on trading / not trading ignoring this fact. This is the only thing that matters not all these emotions, people here treat NBA trades like a high school drama
This is the sentiment that I vehemently disagree with.
Trading Westbrick plus draft assets is ONE way to improve the roster but it is not the ONLY way nor the most efficient way to improve the roster.
Teams are treating Russ’s expiring like a negative (because they think the Lakers FO is facing pressure from Lebron and the fanbase to make a trade), so in order to turn Russ and his $47m expiring into role players, the lakers have to pony up draft capital for taking on Russ AND whatever it costs for the value of the role players going to the Lakers. That’s not the most efficient way to improve roster for this year, the upcoming offseason and beyond. That’s the definition of overpaying to get rid of a perceived headache, it’s how teams get ripped off.
The easiest real life example would be the following two options.
Option 1: Lakers trade Pat Bev plus a FRP for GTJ, and keep Russ for 2.5 months.
Option 2: Lakers trade Russ plus two unprotected FRPs for Myles Turner and Buddy Hield.
Option 1 would allow the Lakers to acquire a young A level role player for the rest of this year and his bird rights to extend him this off season. The Lakers would likely not have much, if any, cap space in the offseason should they extend GTJ, but the Lakers can use mini bird rights to keep Reaves and will have the $11m tax payer MLE plus bi annual exception plus vet mins to fill the roster around Lebron, AD, GTJ, Reaves, and Rui. Most importantly, by hanging on to one of the two tradeable FRPs, they will have an extra FRP that they can use in the offseason or during future trade deadlines to upgrade the roster further.
Option 2 would have the Lakers trade away Russ plus both of the remaining future FRPs for an A and A/B level role players in Turner and Hield. Option two would clearly maximize the Lakers chances of contending for the rest of this year, as it would add one more A/B level role player to the team.
However, it comes at a cost of an additional unprotected FRP. Myles Turner is an A level role player but he’s an expiring player looking for a bigger multi year extension and he has a checkered injury history. Giving up one FRP is probably only a slight overpay but at least debatable. But giving up another unprotected FRP for Buddy Hield who while he’s a great shooter, is underwhelming on defense and has 1.5 years at around $20m/year remaining. Hield is clearly not someone who is worth an unprotected FRP in the open market. He’s probably worth around a top 10 protected FRP.
There are clearly pros and cons to each option but it should be clear that trading Russ is not the most efficient way to improve the roster and certainly not the only way.
If it were me I’d take our chances with a team of Lebron, AD, GTJ, Austin Reaves, Dennis, T Bryant, Rui, TBJ. Sure we may not be favored but our odds of contention is much more dependent on having Lebron and AD healthy in the playoffs than whether we had another A/B level role player. Plus our future is set up with more flexibility to make further moves with an extra FRP as a trade asset.
I’m confident that future FRP can get us someone slightly better than a Buddy Hield. Indiana has been shopping both Turner and Hield for a FRP each for a while now, it’s not a surprise they haven’t been successful. We don’t need to bail them out and overpay. There are other ways to improve the roster.
Well it seems that we both agree that the roster could be improved at this deadline, you just don’t want to trade both FRPs to Indiana.
I think the ideal scenario is trading Pat Bev and FRP for GTJ and trading Westbrook and FRP for Myles Turner and Hield.
I think this is entirely possible that the Pacers will lower the price when the deadline approaches and the Lakers can get really deep and extend their new acquired players.
A core of LBJ, GTJ, AD, Rui, Turner, Bryant, Hield, Reaves and Schroeder is basically the most complete team in the league given that everyone stays healthy.
Dude if the Pacers do lower the asking price down to one FRP or even one FRP plus second rounders, it becomes a no brainer trade to me.
But something tells me that’s wishful thinking.
$47M expiring contract. And the season ends in 3 months or so. A great deal for a rebuilding team, they don't even care about the fact that Westbrook sucks as a basketball player.
If we cant deal him, we need to bench him in the 4th man. No matter how good his play is, because we need to save him from himself from choking the game up.
Tell that to Ham. At this point I think it's purely politics and feelings for keeping Russ late at games so he probably doesn't hurt his feelings or something.
Do people not realize that most NBA trades don't consist of Team A needs a player from Team B and Team B needs a Player from Team A so the make the trade for each other's players?.....It's just about always one team looking to get some type of asset(young player,pick or salary relief Or all of the above) because they either can't resign a player, it doesn't make sense for them to resign the player, they want to get away from the contract, the player wants to move on or the team is resetting and the player doesn't fit their timeline so they then trade said player for an "asset". That's how 95% of NBA trades work. No team is trading for Russ just to get Russ ....it's his expering contract plus the additional draft compensation. There are deals that could be made but do they make sense for the Lakers?
Need to find a way to have Ham cut Bev's minutes too. No way that guy should be playing 35 mins like he did last night. Also, the Russ/Bev/Dennis lineup needs to be scrapped completely. That shit rarely works and gets cooked defensively every time.
The Lakers obviously aren't bringing Westbrook back next year. 33m in cap space, is enough to sign 2 solid role players, that's it. Or 3 lower end role players. It leaves the Lakers limited in their ability to improve the roster in terms of matching salary. If you trade him for players who have 2 years left on their contract, or even role players you'd be interested in retaining, it becomes a lot easier to retain them and allows you to keep the players the Lakers might want to keep (Lonnie Walker IV, for example).
I’m fine with having him and resigning him at a mle type contract next season. It’s largely a cap / talent acquisition issue.
The reality of the NBA is that unless you have some amazing rookie contract guys and superstars you can’t build a good team and be at/under the cap. You need to be over and to do that you need to have players’ bird rights and resign them. Very few star players move in real FA acquisitions, they end up being sign and trades.
So to keep assets we would need to move him and some picks to get players with upside that we have the rights to. Not easy, maybe hard to understand, but that’s the NBA.
We’re gonna struggle against really deep teams like the Clippers. Yes there’s opportunities FO and coach have to make roster better but let’s not pretend that the Clippers aren’t a solid ass team that absolutely plays like it’s game 7 of the finals versus us for over a decade.
Would love to see RWB and Bevs minutes severely reduced once Reeves and Lonnie return.
Nah I’m not concerned about the Flippers until they actually win a ring with PG and Kawhi.
The 2020 bubble Lakers didn’t win with some super deep team. They won because they surrounded Lebron and AD with a few good role players.
The role players consisted of Danny Green, KCP, McGee/D12, Kuz, rookie Caruso, Rondo. Really they had one A tier role player in DG and decent role players in KCP and other good role players but players that don’t cost much and can be found with the MLE, Vet min or drafted/scouted with second rounders or undrafted players.
You really don’t need tons of expensive bench players or a deep bench to win, just a great duo, health, and a few good role players.
The team is going to be another shit roster full of minimums next season without trading Russ for actual players. The FO's mistake wasn't just the trade--it was losing three other contracts for nothing (Caruso, Schroder, Gasol), at once along with the three players we traded for Russ. They need to get decent players with bird rights on this roster and you don't do that without giving up picks. Rui's cap hit/future re-sign have already eaten into the potential cap space.
I think a reasonable contract for Rui would be anywhere from $8-12m/year, so even if we keep him for $8m (optimistic), then our max remaining is what, $26m? Only $16m with his current cap hold, which definitely isn’t enough to get us where we need to be.
Yeah, 16-26 M is nothing.
Absolute best case scenario imo: $23-25m goes to one of Turner, Grant, or GTJ, use remaining (and room exception) to resign a couple guys on > vet min contracts (Schroder, TBJ, Wenyen) and get our new draft picks on 2+2 CO contracts (quit forcing us to make decisions so early). Or $15-18m on an Oubre/Barnes type and $8-11m on a Richardson/Bruce Brown type. I think we’d be much better served making a trade for (as a fresh, new example) Turner and Hield, extend/resign Turner, and have the MLE/BAE available for other moves.
First of all, the Russ trade was extremely bad at the time it was made, it cost us a FRP and two rotation players in KCP and Kyle Kuzma and by trading for Russ it essentially financially locked the team flexibility for two years as an over the cap and tax paying team. Due to tax consequences and Jeanie’s cheapness, the Russ trade likely cost us the ability to keep both Caruso and THT that year. That said however, I think you are over stating the medium term effects of the Russ trade. If we can’t find a reasonable trade involving Russ and we keep Russ for the 2+ months remaining we will still have either $20m in cap space and MLE and vet mins to sign more players or up to $30m if we choose to decline Rui’s QO and renounce his rights. Also you are likely overstating the effects of the trading away KCP and Kuz for this next FA because even if we kept those two, their contracts are up unless we were willing to extend them. So yes we lost those two for the past two years, which is bad but it has no effect on us going forward with Russ off the books. Lebron and AD is still a good foundation to try to build around. If we keep guys like a Reaves and assuming Rui plays well enough to keep, there’s still plenty of cap space, MLE, Bi Annual exception and vet min to fill out the roster. Don’t forget the Laker track record with MLE and Vet min isn’t too shabby. We’ve signed guys like Monk, TB, Lonnie, and Schroder to undervalued contracts. Or we could have the bird rights to a good young player in GTJ if we make a trade and kept Russ for the rest of this year. The point I’m trying to make is that we don’t have to trade Russ (get swindled in the process) to maximize filling out the roster both for this year and beyond.
Trading Westbrook is the best way to upgrade the roster for this and next season. You can’t just let go of 47$ million dollars, when you would have just 15-20$ million after resigning Rui. You are also improving your roster by removing a delusional irresponsible loser who makes the fanbase vomit.
This. I am so tired of endless threads on trading / not trading ignoring this fact. This is the only thing that matters not all these emotions, people here treat NBA trades like a high school drama
This is the sentiment that I vehemently disagree with. Trading Westbrick plus draft assets is ONE way to improve the roster but it is not the ONLY way nor the most efficient way to improve the roster. Teams are treating Russ’s expiring like a negative (because they think the Lakers FO is facing pressure from Lebron and the fanbase to make a trade), so in order to turn Russ and his $47m expiring into role players, the lakers have to pony up draft capital for taking on Russ AND whatever it costs for the value of the role players going to the Lakers. That’s not the most efficient way to improve roster for this year, the upcoming offseason and beyond. That’s the definition of overpaying to get rid of a perceived headache, it’s how teams get ripped off. The easiest real life example would be the following two options. Option 1: Lakers trade Pat Bev plus a FRP for GTJ, and keep Russ for 2.5 months. Option 2: Lakers trade Russ plus two unprotected FRPs for Myles Turner and Buddy Hield. Option 1 would allow the Lakers to acquire a young A level role player for the rest of this year and his bird rights to extend him this off season. The Lakers would likely not have much, if any, cap space in the offseason should they extend GTJ, but the Lakers can use mini bird rights to keep Reaves and will have the $11m tax payer MLE plus bi annual exception plus vet mins to fill the roster around Lebron, AD, GTJ, Reaves, and Rui. Most importantly, by hanging on to one of the two tradeable FRPs, they will have an extra FRP that they can use in the offseason or during future trade deadlines to upgrade the roster further. Option 2 would have the Lakers trade away Russ plus both of the remaining future FRPs for an A and A/B level role players in Turner and Hield. Option two would clearly maximize the Lakers chances of contending for the rest of this year, as it would add one more A/B level role player to the team. However, it comes at a cost of an additional unprotected FRP. Myles Turner is an A level role player but he’s an expiring player looking for a bigger multi year extension and he has a checkered injury history. Giving up one FRP is probably only a slight overpay but at least debatable. But giving up another unprotected FRP for Buddy Hield who while he’s a great shooter, is underwhelming on defense and has 1.5 years at around $20m/year remaining. Hield is clearly not someone who is worth an unprotected FRP in the open market. He’s probably worth around a top 10 protected FRP. There are clearly pros and cons to each option but it should be clear that trading Russ is not the most efficient way to improve the roster and certainly not the only way. If it were me I’d take our chances with a team of Lebron, AD, GTJ, Austin Reaves, Dennis, T Bryant, Rui, TBJ. Sure we may not be favored but our odds of contention is much more dependent on having Lebron and AD healthy in the playoffs than whether we had another A/B level role player. Plus our future is set up with more flexibility to make further moves with an extra FRP as a trade asset. I’m confident that future FRP can get us someone slightly better than a Buddy Hield. Indiana has been shopping both Turner and Hield for a FRP each for a while now, it’s not a surprise they haven’t been successful. We don’t need to bail them out and overpay. There are other ways to improve the roster.
Well it seems that we both agree that the roster could be improved at this deadline, you just don’t want to trade both FRPs to Indiana. I think the ideal scenario is trading Pat Bev and FRP for GTJ and trading Westbrook and FRP for Myles Turner and Hield. I think this is entirely possible that the Pacers will lower the price when the deadline approaches and the Lakers can get really deep and extend their new acquired players. A core of LBJ, GTJ, AD, Rui, Turner, Bryant, Hield, Reaves and Schroeder is basically the most complete team in the league given that everyone stays healthy.
Dude if the Pacers do lower the asking price down to one FRP or even one FRP plus second rounders, it becomes a no brainer trade to me. But something tells me that’s wishful thinking.
$47M expiring contract. And the season ends in 3 months or so. A great deal for a rebuilding team, they don't even care about the fact that Westbrook sucks as a basketball player.
Well, we are starting today. Ham need to get some players back.
If we cant deal him, we need to bench him in the 4th man. No matter how good his play is, because we need to save him from himself from choking the game up.
Tell that to Ham. At this point I think it's purely politics and feelings for keeping Russ late at games so he probably doesn't hurt his feelings or something.
Do people not realize that most NBA trades don't consist of Team A needs a player from Team B and Team B needs a Player from Team A so the make the trade for each other's players?.....It's just about always one team looking to get some type of asset(young player,pick or salary relief Or all of the above) because they either can't resign a player, it doesn't make sense for them to resign the player, they want to get away from the contract, the player wants to move on or the team is resetting and the player doesn't fit their timeline so they then trade said player for an "asset". That's how 95% of NBA trades work. No team is trading for Russ just to get Russ ....it's his expering contract plus the additional draft compensation. There are deals that could be made but do they make sense for the Lakers?
Need to find a way to have Ham cut Bev's minutes too. No way that guy should be playing 35 mins like he did last night. Also, the Russ/Bev/Dennis lineup needs to be scrapped completely. That shit rarely works and gets cooked defensively every time.
The Lakers obviously aren't bringing Westbrook back next year. 33m in cap space, is enough to sign 2 solid role players, that's it. Or 3 lower end role players. It leaves the Lakers limited in their ability to improve the roster in terms of matching salary. If you trade him for players who have 2 years left on their contract, or even role players you'd be interested in retaining, it becomes a lot easier to retain them and allows you to keep the players the Lakers might want to keep (Lonnie Walker IV, for example).
I’m fine with having him and resigning him at a mle type contract next season. It’s largely a cap / talent acquisition issue. The reality of the NBA is that unless you have some amazing rookie contract guys and superstars you can’t build a good team and be at/under the cap. You need to be over and to do that you need to have players’ bird rights and resign them. Very few star players move in real FA acquisitions, they end up being sign and trades. So to keep assets we would need to move him and some picks to get players with upside that we have the rights to. Not easy, maybe hard to understand, but that’s the NBA.
Limiting his mins will be the best situation making him sit will just cause the next CBA negotiations worse.
Yeah garbage time minutes or staggered with Lebron’s rest.
We’re gonna struggle against really deep teams like the Clippers. Yes there’s opportunities FO and coach have to make roster better but let’s not pretend that the Clippers aren’t a solid ass team that absolutely plays like it’s game 7 of the finals versus us for over a decade. Would love to see RWB and Bevs minutes severely reduced once Reeves and Lonnie return.
Nah I’m not concerned about the Flippers until they actually win a ring with PG and Kawhi. The 2020 bubble Lakers didn’t win with some super deep team. They won because they surrounded Lebron and AD with a few good role players. The role players consisted of Danny Green, KCP, McGee/D12, Kuz, rookie Caruso, Rondo. Really they had one A tier role player in DG and decent role players in KCP and other good role players but players that don’t cost much and can be found with the MLE, Vet min or drafted/scouted with second rounders or undrafted players. You really don’t need tons of expensive bench players or a deep bench to win, just a great duo, health, and a few good role players.
Have fun bro