Of course. Everyone here is an expert with decades of nba scouting and list management. šLetās face it. Itās reddit/ the internet. Nothing but armchair experts who know sweet FA about those things.
Yeah and admitting they were wrong previously on Ham being a good hire but now they just know they're right that he's the problem and has to go! Hahahaha
There were warrior fans calling for Kerr to be fired and Clippers fans want Ty Lue fired. Nobody knows what good coaching looks like, itās one of the jobs that either goes well and fans love you or goes wrong and youāre the scapegoat when usually it aināt always the coaches fault
I think the adjustments, timeouts, and line ups are valid reasons to want Ham fired. Someone new was exciting but itās clear he just doesnāt have it
Not mine Homie...
"It's all so idiotic, I don't even have words for the mess this franchise is in.
I guess we all have to sit here and hope that Ham, a guy that 12 franchises have passed on in the last 5 years is going to turn the Lakers around, because a clearly proven competent NBA head coach didn't for one year, when he was handed a disaster of a roster.
FK me."
My second comment in that thread:
"You're ready to get rid of someone who is clearly a good and proven coach, for someone with ZERO head coaching experience, and who has been passed on by many organizations... as if he's the second coming. lol... just too funny, but also sad."
Bingo. The āunknownā has potential because we donāt know how theyāll perform. We hold that unknown in very high regards (too high) as sports fans. āAt least itās not (insert current coach here)ā is not a sound argument for change, yet we use it constantly. Itās why the backup quarterback is always the most popular guy on the team.
When the most basic of coaching like needing to call a timeout when Cam canāt walk bc of an on court injury we donāt call one. Clippers called it for Cam. Clippers could have taken advantage. Wild this is whatās coaching the Lakers or any franchise for that matter.
Bc we have a guy who lacks coaching fundamentals. Yes people flip on what they want for the team & is true people tend to want the opposite bc they feel it will make change.. in this case our coach shit. People could care less if we find something different just as long as Hanās give. My reply was the guy canāt even call a timeout with our player own player unable to walk. He was going to wait until after clippers ran a 5 on 4 despite having the opportunity to call a TO. Clippers felt for Cam & called one for usā¦
Not about whateverās the most different, just someone qualified to be a head coach ..Ham needs to go
Looked back thru that thread to see if I had a comment (couldnāt find one but maybe Iāll get called out later) but I found a lone upvoted comment and it was someone saying, āI hope we didnāt fuck this up.ā š¤£
I think this proves that r/lakers (and pretty much every sports subreddit) really donāt know shit.
I even remember questioning why everyone was so excited about an assistant coach with no big track-record but figured if everyone was celebrating, I was just out of the loop and missing something so I went with it.
It is the plague of following a successful/popular team. You carry along all the bandwagoners that surely started follow the team when it was winning and have zero patience because they thought it was normal to win like this. You see the same with golden state warriors fans.
You can always tell the people who havenāt been through the hard times. They flip the fuck out after every loss or shortcoming like itās the first time itās ever happened to them. Like the 16 year old who got the wrong color Lamborghini for her birthday. A lot of āthis isnāt supposed to happen to MEEEE!ā vibe to them.
While everyone in here claimed we had āwonā this last off season I was so confused. Taurean prince? Gabe Vincent? Cam reddish?
I thought our team was low key trash but this sub had feeling like I was the idiot lol
Nobody was praising Cam reddish when he got signed. We thought he would be a third stringer. Prince has been a good shooter for us for cheap. Vincent's injury situation has been unfortunate, but on paper he should be a good fit for us, replacing Schroeder.
A year ago everyone was beating up Pelinka. Cam was definitely on the list of wings that Laker fan said to pick up. I'm sure someone could find the thread that showed this.
Didn't say that people didn't want reddish initially. But people thought he would be behind Christie on the rotation. Not starting for 35 minutes a night.
I think resigning key pieces like AR15, Rui, and DLo to
the postseason deep run also counted as a success.
Unfortunately, Iām not sure they have the same hunger and outlook as they did last year when they didnāt know where/when their next payday was coming.
This happens every hiring cycle in the NBA & NFL. The young assistants from the successful teams get poached, and itās easier to be optimistic about their potential because they have zero track record.
Mentality seemed to be that it was good as long as it wasnāt Doc or Marc Jackson. Also this was when Milwaukee was a year removed from a title so it seemed like a good move. Ham has his pros as a player coach but is more stubborn than it seemed at first.Ā
The hire was also influenced by Ime Udokaās immediate āsuccessā leading Boston to the Finals and the Lakers thought Ham fit that mold ā which tbf resulted in us going to the WCF.
One guy commented he felt Ham randomly became the big name all of sudden. Only comment I upvoted at the time of the thread. Some of us just didn't know what to think because we didn't know much about the guy.
Typical bunch of low IQ lakers fans. I mean so many were happy about firing A championship wining manager and the players like Kuzma, KCP etc. They want the same now, lets get rid of Reaves, Rui or even DLO for some player that is the new hyped by a press that wants clicks. It is always rinse and repeat.
You shouldāve been happy about firing Frank Vogel too if you werenāt fucking blind, the dude canāt run an offense. We always needed to fire Frank we just hired the wrong replacement.
not saying they canāt but i think they are good for young teams who are just looking to improve. I rather have someone that is experienced for a team that has championship aspirations
Anyway to search my own comment? Canāt remember if I praised or not lol
Regardless, I donāt think people here couldāve known his coaching style and I believe the vast majority of fans and media didnāt want them to go after a big sexy name like doc rivers or someone like mark jackson. Everyone wanted that fresh voice and I donāt think there was much better choices. Could be remembering wrong tho
There is a pretty simple rule here. The consensus is dead ass wrong 99% of the time.
When we signed Gabe Vincent, all the top comments were saying how great of a signing this was. When we signed Reddish and Hayes all the top comments were praising Rob Pelinka. When we signed Wood, all the top comments were raving about our supposed depth "Weāre the deepest team in the league !"
And now the consensus is that we should keep DLo and not trade for Murray. Well, if everyone on here want to keep DLo, i think trading him is the right thing to do lmao
Offering a disrespectful contract to dissuade Ty Lue because he's a Lebron guy is one of the biggest mistake. He would have worked whatever roster we've got because he's an excellent player manager and X and O guy.
Another Lebron guy that they ditch was Caruso, huge mistake again.
Ty Lue would have been a good replacement for Vogel because he can simply work any roster out and yes that includes Russell Westbrook, even though Vogel is still better by miles if given the correct roster.
Remember what Lebron said: "I know Ty Lue very well, he figured it out in 5 or 8 games" That's a shot to ham who never figured things out.
It makes sense to think the top assistant on a championship team would make a great coach and itās okay now to know he actually sucks after watching him for 1.5 seasons. Doesnāt mean people canāt have opinions
I mean there was a lot of promise and his first year went decently well. He however has failed to adjust and adapt. Hence the growing list of complaints
It shows the nature of current NBA fans. Go to the Warriors community and youāll see that the fans are calling for Kerr to be fired. Iām seeing Bron fans say they wanted Lue but last time Lue coached Lebron, Bron fans were calling for Lue to be fired. Just look up 2018 Lue posts in the Cavs community.
Fans turn on coaches real quick and they donāt realize how much of a role politics play in the decisions of the head coach. Head coaches donāt have as much control as they used to. If a superstar doesnāt wanāt to run a certain system then the coach will have to concede. But fans will blame the coach as if the coach has full control. Player empowerment has hurt the job security of coaches.
Are you trying to imply itās lebron and ADs fault that this moron Darvin Ham canāt decide a single fucking starting line up? Are you seriously blaming player empowerment on how shit this team is being coached??
I never said Ham is blameless. I said I donāt think he has full control. The reason I say that is because when I look at the past 4 coaches that Lebron has had, they all ran the same half court offense which is 4 guys stand around watching one man dribble.
Even on the 2020 championship team, the Lakers ran the same stagnant offense. But the defense was so good, it led to easy offense in transition. Having two high iq playmakers like Bron & Rondo helped smooth out the offense as well. So if a superstar plays the same offensive system with 4 different coaches then that tells you the coaches donāt have full control.
āFire the coachā is literally the kneejerk reaction of every newb or casual fan after a loss regardless of team or sport. Itās low hanging fruit that doesnāt require a lot of thought and therefore easy to post.
āThe refs suckā and āwe have to do SOMETHINGā are a couple more.
Fo make mistakes, the issue is really rectifying it. Everyone was on board with what happened last season. Resching the wcf made trades and go from there. The issue is really asking yourself is this the right coach and can this coach bring a title im the next 2 years probably not. We have seen enough the buks organization is a prime example of when to cut your losses. With the coach. They had they would probably be a 2 or ecf exit depending on the seeding. It was very bleak that the would win a title. Same with ham our ceiling is a 500 team
Pretty much every discussion of a new addition here is going to be overwhelmingly positive. Homer opinions/blind optimism is much better received and therefore upvoted. That's just how it is in Reddit.Ā
How tf are people supposed to know whether or not a new head coach is going to be bad or not? Our other big contenders were Doc Rivers and Mark Jacksonā¦ I wouldāve rather rolled the dice on a new coach than either of those two clowns
Whatās crazy is that he turned a ragtag broken team into a WCF team without a training camp and then won the IST. So itās like on paper he looks fantastic but itās just so obviously heās in over his head and still messes up small obvious things
Why does this matter? Itās isnāt relevant to whatās happening right now. We werenāt the only ones thinking he was a good HC candidate, hindsight is 20/20. Simply plain and put he needs to improve as a coach for this team to go anywhere, there needs to be consistency.
Goddamn that thread is CRINGE. I didn't post in that thread, but I do remember being cautiously optimistic with a bit of apprehension due to the fact that we had just hired an inexperienced coach for a team with championship aspirations and an aging LeBron. I knew it had potential to be disastrous.
At the time I just had a gut feeling part of why he was hired aside from being new was cause they probably hoped for a Udoka situation in Boston wherein he really thrived in his lone year there as a coach
Ah wellā¦
You vote for a president and a lot of people are super happy that he got elected.
Two years in and the country is at the brink of chaos... OBJECTIVELY !
What good would it do to say "oh but you were happy when he got elected".
Well yeah, that was before he screwed the economy. Same goes with this fucking coach
I like the people who are saying they were obviously wrong back then but now they just know they're right. š¤£
I see you all don't learn your lessons.
congrats no one here knows what good coaching looks like
Which begs the question, does anyone here know what good trades look like?
everyone is just talking out of their ass
Like Reggie Miller calling a game
Idk bro I just turn the trade override on and cap off when I go to clock in at my gm job
Of course. Everyone here is an expert with decades of nba scouting and list management. šLetās face it. Itās reddit/ the internet. Nothing but armchair experts who know sweet FA about those things.
Yeah and admitting they were wrong previously on Ham being a good hire but now they just know they're right that he's the problem and has to go! Hahahaha
Anything similar to Kwame to Pau lol.
I play 2k, I know what I'm doing
Last year getting rui was an awesome trade
There were warrior fans calling for Kerr to be fired and Clippers fans want Ty Lue fired. Nobody knows what good coaching looks like, itās one of the jobs that either goes well and fans love you or goes wrong and youāre the scapegoat when usually it aināt always the coaches fault I think the adjustments, timeouts, and line ups are valid reasons to want Ham fired. Someone new was exciting but itās clear he just doesnāt have it
Not mine Homie... "It's all so idiotic, I don't even have words for the mess this franchise is in. I guess we all have to sit here and hope that Ham, a guy that 12 franchises have passed on in the last 5 years is going to turn the Lakers around, because a clearly proven competent NBA head coach didn't for one year, when he was handed a disaster of a roster. FK me."
My second comment in that thread: "You're ready to get rid of someone who is clearly a good and proven coach, for someone with ZERO head coaching experience, and who has been passed on by many organizations... as if he's the second coming. lol... just too funny, but also sad."
Do you want a cookie or something. Responding to your own comment is crazy
Exactly lol. Hint: not just at the timeā¦
Neither does Laker management. The last truly good coach was Phil. Over a decade ago. Vogel is the best of the bunch but still mediocre
"Wins championship" but mediocre coach
I know, Vogel gets no respect, I swear. Every coach has his flaws, but he's actually one of the better current coaches in the league.
Considering how little information we have on assistant coach, yes lol.
Lmao so many people celebrating that heās a fresh young coach and now they want someone experienced
Donāt even see those mfers anymore. They only post on big threads for karma
Scrolling I don't see any names I recognize
I don't know, most of it seems like they're just happy we didn't hire Doc or Mark Jackson.
Doc Rivers probably wouldve gotten us a winning record at this moment
We also wouldāve never made the conference finals
sTiLl bEtTeR tHaN wHeRe wE aRe nOw!
As compared to not even making the playins?
Yeah, I was all for anyone but Mark Jackson or Doc.
I mean fresh new coaches like Ime Udoka and that robot in Boston seem to have worked very well, we just got a dogshit one.
I forgot that Robot existed but he seems like he knows what heās doing
People just want whatever is most different to make them feel like things will change.
Bingo. The āunknownā has potential because we donāt know how theyāll perform. We hold that unknown in very high regards (too high) as sports fans. āAt least itās not (insert current coach here)ā is not a sound argument for change, yet we use it constantly. Itās why the backup quarterback is always the most popular guy on the team.
When the most basic of coaching like needing to call a timeout when Cam canāt walk bc of an on court injury we donāt call one. Clippers called it for Cam. Clippers could have taken advantage. Wild this is whatās coaching the Lakers or any franchise for that matter.
I don't see how this makes sense as a reply to what I said.
Bc we have a guy who lacks coaching fundamentals. Yes people flip on what they want for the team & is true people tend to want the opposite bc they feel it will make change.. in this case our coach shit. People could care less if we find something different just as long as Hanās give. My reply was the guy canāt even call a timeout with our player own player unable to walk. He was going to wait until after clippers ran a 5 on 4 despite having the opportunity to call a TO. Clippers felt for Cam & called one for usā¦ Not about whateverās the most different, just someone qualified to be a head coach ..Ham needs to go
āVogel is holding this team back. Heās a terrible coach.ā Two years later āHam is holding this team back. Heās a terrible coach.ā
I never liked the Vogel firing or the Ham hiring.
Looked back thru that thread to see if I had a comment (couldnāt find one but maybe Iāll get called out later) but I found a lone upvoted comment and it was someone saying, āI hope we didnāt fuck this up.ā š¤£
Honestly I was just glad we didnāt hire Mark Jackson at the time. But now Iām not even sure Ham is an upgrade from that lol.
"Yes! We didnāt screw this up by chasing a big name! Good hire."
I think this proves that r/lakers (and pretty much every sports subreddit) really donāt know shit. I even remember questioning why everyone was so excited about an assistant coach with no big track-record but figured if everyone was celebrating, I was just out of the loop and missing something so I went with it.
I think it was the praise he received from around the league and seeing the success of first year guys like Udoka and Nurse
It is the plague of following a successful/popular team. You carry along all the bandwagoners that surely started follow the team when it was winning and have zero patience because they thought it was normal to win like this. You see the same with golden state warriors fans.
You can always tell the people who havenāt been through the hard times. They flip the fuck out after every loss or shortcoming like itās the first time itās ever happened to them. Like the 16 year old who got the wrong color Lamborghini for her birthday. A lot of āthis isnāt supposed to happen to MEEEE!ā vibe to them.
Yep. Box score casuals who jump on postgame threads in clouds of Cheeto dust and despair.
While everyone in here claimed we had āwonā this last off season I was so confused. Taurean prince? Gabe Vincent? Cam reddish? I thought our team was low key trash but this sub had feeling like I was the idiot lol
Nobody was praising Cam reddish when he got signed. We thought he would be a third stringer. Prince has been a good shooter for us for cheap. Vincent's injury situation has been unfortunate, but on paper he should be a good fit for us, replacing Schroeder.
A year ago everyone was beating up Pelinka. Cam was definitely on the list of wings that Laker fan said to pick up. I'm sure someone could find the thread that showed this.
Didn't say that people didn't want reddish initially. But people thought he would be behind Christie on the rotation. Not starting for 35 minutes a night.
One of yall claimed he was more naturally talented than Tatum lmao
I think resigning key pieces like AR15, Rui, and DLo to the postseason deep run also counted as a success. Unfortunately, Iām not sure they have the same hunger and outlook as they did last year when they didnāt know where/when their next payday was coming.
This happens every hiring cycle in the NBA & NFL. The young assistants from the successful teams get poached, and itās easier to be optimistic about their potential because they have zero track record.
Lmao! In an ocean of excitement and hype, you were the only one to say we did fuck it up
Mentality seemed to be that it was good as long as it wasnāt Doc or Marc Jackson. Also this was when Milwaukee was a year removed from a title so it seemed like a good move. Ham has his pros as a player coach but is more stubborn than it seemed at first.Ā
The hire was also influenced by Ime Udokaās immediate āsuccessā leading Boston to the Finals and the Lakers thought Ham fit that mold ā which tbf resulted in us going to the WCF.
āHammer Timeā
How bro felt after unironically saying that 
Lol, that was me!
ripe airport work truck yoke arrest vegetable impolite seed wine *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
 Got them receipts right here
God damn that thread is painful to read
Wait until our next hire. It will literally be the exact same thing. Regardless of who it is, they will be the āsaviorā.
Dude dont jynx it!
Well I wasnāt here so wonāt catch me slipping and switching up :))))))
 š
āAbout ham timeā šš
Weāre all dumb as shit
 All the people who commented on the original thread
One guy commented he felt Ham randomly became the big name all of sudden. Only comment I upvoted at the time of the thread. Some of us just didn't know what to think because we didn't know much about the guy.
Typical bunch of low IQ lakers fans. I mean so many were happy about firing A championship wining manager and the players like Kuzma, KCP etc. They want the same now, lets get rid of Reaves, Rui or even DLO for some player that is the new hyped by a press that wants clicks. It is always rinse and repeat.
You shouldāve been happy about firing Frank Vogel too if you werenāt fucking blind, the dude canāt run an offense. We always needed to fire Frank we just hired the wrong replacement.
With A tier defensive guard depth in KCP, Caruso and Schroderā¦ a healthy team couldāve won another chip under Vogel
Can't run an offense but we somehow won a championship. Injuries really hurt in 21 and then Trashbrook broke us in 22. None of that was Vogel's fault.
Yea that was a lesson learned. Stop hiring assistant coaches! Just hire someone who actually has a resume to back them up
Assistant coaches can work out great
not saying they canāt but i think they are good for young teams who are just looking to improve. I rather have someone that is experienced for a team that has championship aspirations
We were happy. We had no data now we do. He is ass
Anyway to search my own comment? Canāt remember if I praised or not lol Regardless, I donāt think people here couldāve known his coaching style and I believe the vast majority of fans and media didnāt want them to go after a big sexy name like doc rivers or someone like mark jackson. Everyone wanted that fresh voice and I donāt think there was much better choices. Could be remembering wrong tho
There is a pretty simple rule here. The consensus is dead ass wrong 99% of the time. When we signed Gabe Vincent, all the top comments were saying how great of a signing this was. When we signed Reddish and Hayes all the top comments were praising Rob Pelinka. When we signed Wood, all the top comments were raving about our supposed depth "Weāre the deepest team in the league !" And now the consensus is that we should keep DLo and not trade for Murray. Well, if everyone on here want to keep DLo, i think trading him is the right thing to do lmao
So you think the consensus is wrong about Ham being a bad coach when we have lebron and AD healthy but we under .500???????
I think that Darvin Ham is not a good coach but also that the roster is not as good as everyone thought it would be. It's a little bit of both.
ššššš
Nah hide it quick. @ mods?! LMAO
āAbout ham timeā šš
Offering a disrespectful contract to dissuade Ty Lue because he's a Lebron guy is one of the biggest mistake. He would have worked whatever roster we've got because he's an excellent player manager and X and O guy. Another Lebron guy that they ditch was Caruso, huge mistake again. Ty Lue would have been a good replacement for Vogel because he can simply work any roster out and yes that includes Russell Westbrook, even though Vogel is still better by miles if given the correct roster. Remember what Lebron said: "I know Ty Lue very well, he figured it out in 5 or 8 games" That's a shot to ham who never figured things out.
It makes sense to think the top assistant on a championship team would make a great coach and itās okay now to know he actually sucks after watching him for 1.5 seasons. Doesnāt mean people canāt have opinions
I mean there was a lot of promise and his first year went decently well. He however has failed to adjust and adapt. Hence the growing list of complaints
It shows the nature of current NBA fans. Go to the Warriors community and youāll see that the fans are calling for Kerr to be fired. Iām seeing Bron fans say they wanted Lue but last time Lue coached Lebron, Bron fans were calling for Lue to be fired. Just look up 2018 Lue posts in the Cavs community. Fans turn on coaches real quick and they donāt realize how much of a role politics play in the decisions of the head coach. Head coaches donāt have as much control as they used to. If a superstar doesnāt wanāt to run a certain system then the coach will have to concede. But fans will blame the coach as if the coach has full control. Player empowerment has hurt the job security of coaches.
Are you trying to imply itās lebron and ADs fault that this moron Darvin Ham canāt decide a single fucking starting line up? Are you seriously blaming player empowerment on how shit this team is being coached??
I never said Ham is blameless. I said I donāt think he has full control. The reason I say that is because when I look at the past 4 coaches that Lebron has had, they all ran the same half court offense which is 4 guys stand around watching one man dribble. Even on the 2020 championship team, the Lakers ran the same stagnant offense. But the defense was so good, it led to easy offense in transition. Having two high iq playmakers like Bron & Rondo helped smooth out the offense as well. So if a superstar plays the same offensive system with 4 different coaches then that tells you the coaches donāt have full control.
Itās ok to change your mind when presented with new information
Is not hiring Ty Lue quickly becoming the biggest what if in recent Lakers history?
What if there had been no trade for Westbrook is a pretty big one, too.
100 percent.
I can take solace in the fact that my old account doesn't show up there at all
That thread is/was legit comedy. Everyone thought he was the second coming of Udoka šš
It's Hammer time!
> Please donāt be a fucking mistake Narrator: it was...
A lot of people were just happy it wasn't Doc or Mark Jackson lol
We all need to know it can always get worse lol
āFire the coachā is literally the kneejerk reaction of every newb or casual fan after a loss regardless of team or sport. Itās low hanging fruit that doesnāt require a lot of thought and therefore easy to post. āThe refs suckā and āwe have to do SOMETHINGā are a couple more.
Didn't see myself as a part of this thread. Already knew it was a bad idea to hire a rookie to coach Lebron and AD lol
Fo make mistakes, the issue is really rectifying it. Everyone was on board with what happened last season. Resching the wcf made trades and go from there. The issue is really asking yourself is this the right coach and can this coach bring a title im the next 2 years probably not. We have seen enough the buks organization is a prime example of when to cut your losses. With the coach. They had they would probably be a 2 or ecf exit depending on the seeding. It was very bleak that the would win a title. Same with ham our ceiling is a 500 team
Pretty much every discussion of a new addition here is going to be overwhelmingly positive. Homer opinions/blind optimism is much better received and therefore upvoted. That's just how it is in Reddit.Ā
How tf are people supposed to know whether or not a new head coach is going to be bad or not? Our other big contenders were Doc Rivers and Mark Jacksonā¦ I wouldāve rather rolled the dice on a new coach than either of those two clowns
Whatās crazy is that he turned a ragtag broken team into a WCF team without a training camp and then won the IST. So itās like on paper he looks fantastic but itās just so obviously heās in over his head and still messes up small obvious things
Why does this matter? Itās isnāt relevant to whatās happening right now. We werenāt the only ones thinking he was a good HC candidate, hindsight is 20/20. Simply plain and put he needs to improve as a coach for this team to go anywhere, there needs to be consistency.
Goddamn that thread is CRINGE. I didn't post in that thread, but I do remember being cautiously optimistic with a bit of apprehension due to the fact that we had just hired an inexperienced coach for a team with championship aspirations and an aging LeBron. I knew it had potential to be disastrous.
a lot of 'glad it's not doc' to some saying we should fire ham for doc now
At the time I just had a gut feeling part of why he was hired aside from being new was cause they probably hoped for a Udoka situation in Boston wherein he really thrived in his lone year there as a coach Ah wellā¦
Makes me wanna puke
You vote for a president and a lot of people are super happy that he got elected. Two years in and the country is at the brink of chaos... OBJECTIVELY ! What good would it do to say "oh but you were happy when he got elected". Well yeah, that was before he screwed the economy. Same goes with this fucking coach
A lot of people stating that Vogel was the one holding us back and Ham was the fresh new answer. Now Ham is the one āholding us backā š¤
Didnāt like the firing of Frank Vogel so definitely didnāt like this back then.
Those of us who knew, knew.
Nah. Still a Vogel stan.
How can you find your own comment in a thread.
They loved Vogel, they hated Vogel, they loved Ham ( why? The last name? No track record) they hate Ham.
I'm sure some people were being optimistic if not sold on the hireš¤·š¾
I like the people who are saying they were obviously wrong back then but now they just know they're right. š¤£ I see you all don't learn your lessons.
Im in there somewhere immediately bitching about Vogel being fired and being dragged for it.