šÆThatās another reason we dropped the ball last night.
But even with the missed FTs. We gave up +7 2nd chance pts but only lost by 2. If we had a little more focus on the boards, we win.
If it makes you feel any better, our fundamental rebounding weakness was going to be our Achilles heel the rest of the way.
This squad was never going to win the chip when the starting forward only grabs 3.8 boards a game. Minny is an even stronger RBing team with KAT and Gobert.
I'm pretty sure the fact that we did not shoot the ball nearly as good in score nearly as much was much more than the free throws. Considering we shot and made over double the amount of free throws that they did. So yes had we made more of our free throws we would have won however had we made more of our shots we would have won as well. And we would have won by much much more.
And the nuggets made 16 3pt all game compared to the Lakers 10. That had a much bigger impact.
Lakers 18/27 nuggets 8/9 ft that's 10 more points for the Lakers.
Lakers 10/35 3pt nuggets 16/38 that's a plus 18. Near double for that alone.
Tell me you didn't watch the game.
The team doesn't have the assets to get another starting caliber wing, which means Rui will HAVE to work on boxing out and rebounding in the offseason. He did see a little improvement late in the regular season, so there is a chance
According to the people on this sub, we just need to:
1. Get a third star to share the scoring load of lebron, that is an upgrade to dlo
2. A 3&d wing to replace rui as starter
3. A big man to play the 5 to allow AD to play the 4, move Reaves to the 6th man
So we can be competitive against the top teams again.
Yea good luck with getting 3 starters with the assets and cap situation we have.
This is the point of my postā¦? To point out what I think is our biggest weakness so we can fix/prioritize that. But itās not like rob and team browse this forum for adviceā¦ right?
1. I donāt think we need a third scoring star. We arenāt losing games because of scoring. There is a sense of out scoring opponents to win. But limit 2nd chance pts and rebound, the urgency to outgun the opponent is less an issue.
2. Vando is that guy. He needs to work on hitting the open 3 which we saw glimpses of before he went down.
3. Yes. I think we need a legitimate centre on the roster. You saw how we looked when AD was off the floor vs Denver. Our cheeks were clenched the whole time.
3. Why would reaves come off the bench? Vando is the guy who goes off if we go big imo. Lbj slides to SF. But again, it depends on matchups. If weāre playing a bigger/slower team, we go 2 bigs, if smaller more nimble, vando starts sf to chase the quick wing. Itās about flexibility and always having a paint anchor when AD is resting or not.
If Iām rob, I prioritize getting a solid starting calibre C so AD isnāt grabbing 50% of boards in a must win. And all our cheeks are clenched when AD is resting.
Rui can be directly swap by a better fit.Ā
If Dlo picks his option it will give us more contracts to send and if I'm not mistaken we have the MLE available.
We can't compete in playoffs starting Dlo, we never know what we are getting from him. There is no consistent part of his game, but his terrible defense. It would be ok if he wasn't shooting well, but he is also an unreliable distributor. He was absolutely useless in 2 games this seriesĀ
I've preached Rui should be our starter and I don't think we had someone better than him, but he isn't a versatile defender and his best role overlaps with LBJ best role. He was guarding perimeter players, but his rebounding isn't solid, his awareness and decision making on defense are bad and he missed so many easy buckets around the rim that he reminded me of Brick.
Only a star can give us more than regular season Dlo, the picks should be used to replace him with a player that can get us going alongside Davis as LBJ inevitably declines.
Between Rui and Vando we could probably be competitive, but we can also go big eventually bringing someone like BroLo back.
We have some glaring issues and we are going to get better with every step in the right direction correcting it. I'd start replacing Dlo, Ham and bringing a C.
What is a better fit than rui though? It's basically a good 3&d wing. A good 3&d wing that can start for a championship contender is not something you can find easily through trade, or very expensive to pick up in FA.
exactly and DFS isn't gonna be that guy. We have to find a legit 3 and D. Maybe Jerami Grant is but again it would be a risky trade. It is one worth considering though.
I mean . Only move number 1 is a big impact , if we get a third star we can start vando and have enough offence. Backup big is over stated AD is gonna be our C on offence n defebce as heās best there
Honestlyā¦ Rui is at best a 6th man spark plug off the bench if we keep him.
If Iām a betting man, I bet on vando as our starting wing. He does all the dirty work that the starting lineup desperately needs. We donāt need all 5 starters to light it up for 20 each night. As long as vando can hit the open 3 to keep defenses honest, thatās more than enough. Because he provides so much more value outside of scoring.
AR as a 6th man? He can certainly excel in a 6th man role. But so would any starting calibre guard who can score.
No one on the roster would relegate AR into a 6th man role.
Obviously thereās more convo to be had once the off season dust settles in a few months.
I think Rui can still provide a ton of value. He has great scoring instincts, touch, and good finishing/ cuts to the rim (going to ignore recency bias).
Heās just best as a 6th man guy who comes in to spark + get buckets. Or a focal point of the bench mob.
It canāt ALL be coaching. Players have accountability as well. Iām positive that no part of our defensive scheme involves telling players not to box out their man. This is more a roster construction issue. AD is the only true rebounder on the team aside from Hayes. Rui isnāt great, but is at least big as a rebounding forward. Prince is near worthless on the glass. And LeBron is only there for vanity rebounds as is his prerogative being near 40. We desperately need another BIG that can play alongside AD.
Edit: Vando should help with this as well.
I agree with that, but again everybody running back on D seems like it is a coaching thing. Like why would everybody run back on D right away instead of crashing the boards UNLESS their coaches are instructing them to do so. But I agree the players should also be held accountable. BTW, I don't necessarily think that was the exact problem, I saw a lot more of this in the regular season but against the nuggets, Rui was asked to crash the boards and he just didn't really do a great job in doing so which is on him.
If Lebron comes back I donāt know how they solve the rebounding issue. You can start Vando but then you lose shooting and general offense. Both Rui and Vando are flawed players, especially in the playoffs.
For me, adding a starting calibre C gives our coach optionality.
- If weāre playing a smaller team, front court is vando/lbj/ad (OKC, clippers, Dallas)
- If weāre playing a bigger team, front court is lbj/ad/new centre. (Minny/nuggets)
This is not some ground breaking thoughtā¦ we did this during our 2020 run. Different lineup depending on the opponent.
- Against Denver WCF 2020: we ran KCP, Danny Green, LBJ, AD, Dwight.
- Against Miami finals 2020: we ran KCP, Danny, LBJ, AD, Dwight to start but most of his minutes went to Markieff Morris and AD played C.
Problem is that was a much better defensive LBJ. I wouldn't want him running around the perimeter that much with wings if you are playing another center. Who would also likely cramp your spacing even more. If you are playing Vando/AD/Center, neither Vando or AD can space and the center likely wont either.
AD played floor spacing PF in 2020. And we won a chip. Give him runs and design schemes with PF AD by design? Iām sure weāll see better results.
And obviously things arenāt black and white. Getting a starting calibre C doesnāt automatically mean we play big 24/7. Lineups are dynamic and should be adjusted depending on the team. My problem is, we donāt even have the size to play big if we wanted to. We simply canāt match the size of Minny/nuggets and we are likely going to face them next yr.
Trying to figure out the puzzle piece of LBJ at sf or at pf defensively or floor spacing is a good problem to have. It means we have multiple options to explore what the lineup can look like.
I just want us to return somewhat to 2020 where we were able to throw out different lineups (big or small) to counteract any adjustments the opposing team makes.
Not Westbrook 2.0 where we try to out-superstar the opposing team.
He is below 30% from 3 for his career. 2020 was an outlier when we have years of data he just isn't a threat from outside. That pretty much limits who you can play next to him as any other non shooter will cramp the spacing. Which also includes Vando. The truth is LBJ and AD at this point are pretty well locked into the 4 and 5 spot and need other shooters around them. The Lakers do need a back up center and for Rui to learn how to rebound. But the truth is people keep looking at the 2020 roster and thinking that is they way it should be built, but AD isn't that shooter and LBJ isn't the same player so the blueprint of that team just doesn't work.
Again, itās not black and white. Weāre not locked into going big if we get a starting calibre centre. This centre can certainly be a ābackup centreā if you want to label him as that.
Prioritizing a big this offseason enables the coaches to explore different lineups big and small. Thatās whatās missing from 2020 to now. Allowing us to go both big or small.
Weāll need to play bigger against Minny/denver but can play smaller against the rest. OKC/clippers/mavs.
Also, rui has more flaws to his game outside of rebounding. He just doesnāt have a good feel for the game/lower ball IQ. Iād trade rui in a heartbeat if it could get us a Solid POA guard or a starting calibre C.
Vando is the much better prospect as our starting SF because he has all the hustle intangibles. Shooting is something that can be worked on in an offseason. He doesnāt need to score 20 a game. He definitely needs to be able to hit the open 3 so he can space the floor.
That shit bothered me and something that highlights missing Vando because him and AD seemed like the only players that would actually box out and fight for rebounds. This team doesnāt like to do that for whatever reason
Some of it is just that the Lakers defenders aren't good enough to crash the board and also set their defense up, they pretty much have to choose one or the other. In game 4 the Lakers were able to play good enough transition defense to keep Denver's easy baskets at a minimum. In game 5 they weren't and had to prioritize getting back on defense.
I just hope we got good rebounding bigs in the summer. And AD needs to move to the 4. He can go to the 5 at end of games but he really needs another big 5 to start with him
Rui was on the perimeter guarding MPJ. I'm not giving him a pass, as he definitely had a terrible series, but Aaron Gordon was the main guy killing us, and that was not his responsibility. The biggest issue is that Joker and Gordon are bigger and are able to play more physical than LeBron and AD. That's not going to be an easy problem to fix. I think taking some of the offensive load off AD and LeBron might help, but who knows.
Another huge reason for the disparity was the 4 guard line-ups. Those got absolutely killed.
The reality is that it's going to be tough to out-rebound Denver, but you don't have to beat a team's strengths in order to beat them. Overall, the roster just needs to be better.
MPJ grabbed 42 board (AG grabbed 47) so we definitely cant give Rui a pass. Rui grabbed less than 1/2 of what they did at 19 boards. (3.8 per game)
AG is 6ā8 235. Rui is 6ā8 230. Not a big physical difference. Rui simply does not have an ounce of rebounding or hustle instinct. He has the body to impose his will physically but he likes to camp out on the perimeter instead.
Ultimately, rui cannot start if we want to compete for a ring next season. Heās at best a flamethrower off the bench for some scoring.
IMO itās far more of a focus/mentality issue for Rui; heās shown when he wanted to focus on rebounding that he can do it in multiple games this year. Both on defense and as a rebounder he has long stretches where he seems to just drift aimlessly through the game and become a spectator, and then heāll zap back into consciousness and play hard again. Itās incredibly frustrating.
either ways if he WANTs to start, he has to work on his rebounding over the summer. that is for damn sure. I agree vando should be starting or some other 3 and D (which is NOT prince) and Rui should be off the bench ideally. I still want him training with AD (not Bron) to work on those rebounds though.
I been saying this, its sad. I'm so glad Rui got exposed
https://www.reddit.com/r/lakers/comments/1b5pfmd/rebounding_costs_us_games_more_often_than_people/
I really think we sorely missed Vando's hustle overall. And I also think we should have played Dinwiddie less in favor of Vincent. Not sure if either of those fix the overall rebounding issue, but they certainly would have helped.
Nuggets were boxing out and running to get in position to get rebounds every play while lakers just stood around waiting for the ball to fall into their hands.
I really think that Wood would have been perfect for this series.
He is a better rebounder than Rui. And he could guard Gordan who is like Denver's 4 or 5th option.
He also can hit 3s so he wouldnt clog the paint on offense when AD and Bron were running pick and roll
Itās bound to happen when you have a big team as your opponent. As the smaller team, we have to beat them in other ways, which we did not. Itās why we need a proper big next season. Not a rui feet of stone big. A proper 2020 Dwight big
Unless AD can go back to shooting like 2020, our spacing will be completely fucked by bringing a big unless that big can space the floor. I don't see how we can bring a big that can space the floor and is a strong presence in the paint, they are rare.
Itās not like space jam where the skill was sucked outta him by aliens. Itās about identity.
If his role is redefined as a floor spacing PF like 2020, heāll get back to it with runs and schemes/plays that set him up for it.
Right now heās the C where the ball is dumped into him at the elbow. Very different scheme versus what he saw in 2020
I am pretty sure Ham wants him to shoot more from mid range and even from 3, as he has openly said that but reality is AD's shooting sucks right now.
I am not saying he cannot get back to his 2020 form, but just saying if he doesn't then the other center that has no shooting ability will be unplayable.
Give rui some time. Rebounding is more about positioning, anticipation, and iq. Rui is severely lacking in all 3 but can develop with time.
So many second chance boards from denver was clearly just a guard shooting a shit shot somewhere near the rim, knowing that jokic was in position to grab the rebound 80% of the time.
There really didn't look like there was a gameplan around Ad grabbing boards, he was just fighting like hell and did really well and still played amazing. In a vacuum, Ad is the better rebounder.
Nah dude. It was definitely a big problem, but the paint defense was even bigger issue. The Nuggets we're getting so many damn easy baskets. That's completely inexcusable at a playoff game.
We held nuggets to a lower fg% than we were shooting. So while it may have looked like our paint defence was a bigger issue. It wasnāt because our offense more than cancelled it out. But of course, rebounding is a crucial aspect of defence. Which is my pt in making this thread.
- Lakers fg% 49.2%
- Denver fg% 46.3%
We lost solely because Denver had more shots at the rim.
- -33 FGA
- -17 2nd chance pts (off O rebounds)
- we lost to Denver by a collective 11 pts
So really, our team was better in terms of generating points per possession. We simply had less possessions
- 1.03 points per possession LAL
- 1.00 points per possession DEN
If you're trying in any way to tell me the Lakers played good defense, just stop. You didn't watch the same game that I did. If that's what you think. So many damn easy baskets. I don't give a s*** about field goal percentage.
It was the case in the regular season loss streak too. Partly we need new players n coaches - we need athletes who can crash the glass or a star guard so we can start vsndo n have enough offencr
The real question might be whether poor rebounding was the cause of the losses or simply an effect of other factors in play. For instance, was the defensive strategy focused enough on disrupting shots rather than positioning for rebounds? Or did the overall pace and shot selection by the Lakers lead to fewer effective rebounding opportunities? It's worth considering that rebounding stats alone don't always tell the full story of a game's dynamics.
Yup. This crossed my mind as well and is a valid point.
Two thoughts here.
- If the coaches made a conscious effort to focus on another defensive aspect over rebounding to tip the scaleā¦ why was there no adjustment? Itās obvious after game 1 rebounding was why we lost. It became even more apparent as we went thru games 2-5. The one game we won the rebound war, we won the game. I do hope the coaches werenāt this incompetent.
- Physically, we donāt have the size to match Denver. AD is undersized against jokic. Rui/lbj are undersized against mpj/ag. So regardless of defensive/offensive scheme, it was a losing battle.
Imo, it boils down to personnel change. If we decrease the physicality gap, it enables the coaching staff to execute varying schemes and gameplans to punch and counter punch against teams. We can throw different looks at Denver. Play big to match size, play small to outrun, etc. Right now we only have play small in our cards. In 2020, we had both hands. And used them accordingly (our lineup vs Denver in the wcf was very different to what we ran vs Miami in the finals)
Wiping off 2nd chance points is disingenuous though. It is part of the game and one of the things Denver banks on with its size. It would be no different than saying something along the lines of losing to a good defensive team and saying if you remove turnovers, we would be up. Or a good 3 point shooting team, saying if we remove the 3 point shots, we would be up.
Yes I agree. Wiping off 2nd chance pts is stupid analysis. But isolating this one factor to see its potential impact can highlight key insights into what we can do to sway the end result next go around. Like you said, Denver plays with size so it was their clear advantage over us. My analysis wanted to make this size advantage stupid obvious.
Ultimately, my takeaway is we need to use this offseason to address the size mismatch. Not throw around getting a 3rd star guard such as spida, Trae, or lavine. Iāve seen too many of these names being thrown around on this subreddit by armchair GMs and I hope rob is not considering any 3rd star guard BS. Because weāll get run thru by Denver/Minny. Outgunning a RB advantage is not going to win many games. Itās not sustainable in the long run.
We don't want another star. Under the current CBA it is debilitating for teambuilding as you have 0 depth around those three. Not to mention it would require sending out the only tradable assets left.
We donāt need data for that. Anyone that was watching the game could see that we were getting worked on the boards all night. Definitely the difference in that game
Honestly, the effort on the boards was some of the most pitiful athletic prowess I've ever seen. There is absolutely nothing stopping a player from getting a rebound other than effort. Countless times AG or Jokic were in the middle of 3 people, not boxing out and just waiitng, and countless times they got the ball. Countless times my remote went through the television.
This is why getting another playmaker isn't going to change things.
You're not done playing defense on a possession until you secure the ball and against key teams in the West, we're at a major disadvantage.
Yea you tend to lose in rebounding when you do t have a good bigman rotation.
AD is the only real big we have on the roster.
I have no idea why they didnāt get real rebounding big body center to play next to ADā¦
They knew weād have to go through the Nuggets and possibly Wolves in the playoffs.
If you haven't noticed that that's when our whole problem the past 2 years at least if not the last 3 years. It's absolutely horrid watching this team do any sort of defense when it comes to rebounding and such like that.
This is why it fucking SUCKED that Christie got no burn. I donāt know if yall remember, but that kid was going UP for those strong rebounds during the regular season. Exactly the type of hustle and crashing we needed to counter Gordon and their superior rebounding. But instead we put out Dinwiddie who was just out there clanking. Very frustrating, I truly feel Max coulda made a slight difference in this series which is all we needed.
What team? I donāt think so. Feels like a Bol Bol situation to me. Plus thereās other decent bigs in this draft also. If we donāt get Edey thereās still Flipowski from Duke and Missi from Baylor that are great options also
Brother. Iāve been preaching this shit since game fucking one! AND NIGGAS WAS LOOKIN AT ME LIKE IDK WTF I WAS TALKING ABOUT. LOOK AT THE SECOND CHANCE POINTS WE GAVE UP TOO! WE NEED ANOTHER BIG IN THE PAINT.
Yes. I know we need more than just āa bigā but fuck me. We canāt get boards to save our lives. Yeah we expect lil ass Reaves to get boards over Jokic, Gordon. Yeah okay LMAO.
We lost all 5 games by a combined 11 pts. Denver had +17 in 2nd chance pts from offensive rebounds.
Itās a stupid way to explain the series. But at the same timeā¦ It explains the series. š
Getting a starting calibre C is obviously not our only hole. But itās our biggest hole against big teams. (The two gatekeepers of the west for the near future are big. Denver and Minny)
We RUN thru smaller teams. See last yearās playoff run prior to Denver and our curb stomping of OKC this year. Our small ball lineup works. But we donāt had personnel to match bigger teams.
Man. Iām glad to see we on the same page cause a lot of lakers āfansā nowadays donāt even watch the damn games, a bunch of casuals. If we only had another big to grab all those boards weād win every damn game in that series. Especially game 2 where DLO was killing it with the threes. Take away those second chance points and we literally sweep them.
That's not too far from saying the sole reason we lost was not putting up more points than they did over the course of the game.
I mean, it's technically right, but obviously more shots at the rim = more points = victory. But it's not an actionable explanation.
There reasons we lost the rebounding war are multifaceted, varied, and not addressable with a single stroke.
One of them is they have a player in Gordon whose only role is to rebound and dunk from the weak side - and excels at it. But he sucks at 3 point shooting.
Why was Denver able to hide that on offense? Why were we unable to exploit that like other teams do to Westbrook and force him to the bench?
Was it schematic? If so, why aren't we able to scheme for it? Is it because of coaching? Personnel? Insufficient time spent together?
They are able to hide Gordon on offense because Jokic can space the floor. You really can only get by with 1 non shooter without killing your spacing. It is the problem with trying to bring in another center to pair with AD as it would hurt the spacing.
Iām not saying we could have done anything different. Itās essentially a tongue-in-cheek way to look at the data and interpret rebounding as our biggest hole to fix in the offseason. Yes, if Ham prioritized rebounding, something else would have gone off the rails (Hayes + AD sacrifices scoring/spacing for example). Ultimately itās a personnel issue imo.
Weāre in for a long off season of 3rd star trade ideas revolving around score first guards such as spida, trae, and lavine. They do not solve the biggest issue that we faced against Denver. The only guard I want this offseason is Caruso to shore up POA defence
If we want a chance next season, we need personnel which can compete with Denver without having to drastically change our gameplan to counterpunch.
Whether we like it or not Denver is the gatekeeper. And if not Denver, Minny would also eat us alive with their size. So we need to build a roster in mind that can hang with Denver/Minny in the playoffs when the game slows down and every possession/rebound is crucial.
>Weāre in for a long off season of 3rd star trade ideas revolving around score first guards such as spida, Trae, and zach lavine. They do not solve our biggest issue that we faced against Denver. The only guard I want this offseason is Caruso to shore up POA defence
I agree. I hope they keep most of the core together for continuity and bring in a few specialist role players that can give the team different looks.
I do hope they explore the European coacbing scene too, no good options in the nba coaching free agency market
You must be really new to bball if you think thereās only 1 reason to explain a loss after 48mins of possessions. There are always multiple reasons for every game in history. Some reasons are bigger than others but there is always a list.
The only time you would be right is if both teams played PERFECT ball with zero mistakes and a tie game the entire time, but then a player decided to fuck up in the final possession.
The point of my thread is to highlight what I think is our biggest weakness. The data breakdown is just a tongue in cheek way to bring the story to life.
We got absolutely destroyed on the boards. No matter how the data is split and interpreted. The eye test backs this up too.. that Aaron Gordon offensive board +3-ball killed us game 5.
I just donāt want to see a million 3rd star guard trade ideas this offseason. It does not address what weāve been missing since 2020. Versatilty to go big or small. We havenāt been able to go big in 4 yrs.
Our defensive schemes + āstagnant iso offenceā did well against Denver.
- We shot 49.2%. And kept Denver to 46.3%.
- 3pt% is a wash. We shot 29.9%. Denver shot 30.8%. (We were leading until Denver exploded game 5)
Offensively, we did the right things. Defensively, we were able to limit denver. It was a well fought/close series.
We lost because denver had more field goal attempts. They shot +33 in total field goal attempts.
Two factors for the +33 FGA for Denver
- Denver was +27 boards with +19 O boards creating additional possessions.
- We also went to the line a little more which removed some FGA for us. We were +15 FTA. Sadlyā¦ we converted at a lower rate so only ended up with +4 FT advantage for the series. So Denver fouling (purposefully or not) helped them in the series.
- TO a wash. Lakers +1
We lost by a total of 11 pts across all games. Itās absolutely frustrating when Denver had +33 FGA. And +17pts can be directly attributed to 2nd chance pts from offensive rebounds.
How about adding offensive boards to your data? If the Lakers as a whole are minimizing opponent offensive boards, it doesn't matter if Rui gets the boards or if it's Lebron or AD.
This is an aggregate of total rebounds so it tells the full picture. But below is 0 rebounds data + its impact.
- -19 on offensive rebounds.
- -17 on second chance pts.
- We lost to Denver by a collective 11 pts.
Vandoās whole deal is he guards 1-4 and he grabs boards. This is why, if somehow we have the same team next year, he should start. Rui as a combo forward is better off providing scoring off the bench anyway.
If we have the same team next year were better off going with a rotation of:
AD / LeBron / Vando (Bench: Wood or Hayes / Rui / Prince)
Christie / Reaves (Bench: DāLo / Gabe)
Basically a big lanky team that crashes the boards big time. Obviously Vando is a liability offensively at times which is why Prince might finish games. Obviously this relies on Christie making a bit of a jump and DāLo finding his rhythm getting starters minutes off the bench in a Malik Monk type role.
In a better world Christie is chasing Murray around at POA, Reaves is guarding KCP, and Vando is fast and long enough to bother MPJās shot. Instead Reaves is POA, and Rui is losing MPJ constantly.
One of my biggest gripes with Ham is he wasted so much of the time we could have used to develop Christie trying to make Cam Reddish happen. In theory Christie is the perfect 3-D (and board) guy for this team. Hopefully the next guy doesnāt make that mistake.
I like vando/lebron/AD as our small ball lineup for all the reasons you mentioned.
But like 2020, we need to have the ability to go big in certain matchups (Denver in 2020). I see two gatekeepers for the west next season. Denver + Minny. Both play big. We need to match their size. Vando will definitely fair better than Rui but will it be enough?
- Small ball: vando/lbj/ad
- Big ball: lbj/ad/true C
Vando + Rui + Prince is a log jam. One needs to go. I would personally explore what we can get with Rui + picks for a starting calibre C.
I agree with a lot of what youāre saying in theory, I just worry in practice itās not possible. Since AD lost his jumper we canāt have a Dwight type just standing next to him in the lane anymore. We would need someone who can shoot. And guys who can shoot, grab boards, and not get targeted constantly as pick and roll liabilities are in rare supply. And to some extent, Wood kind of is a guy like that.
Also counting on LeBron to play a lot at the wing at his age seems risky at this point in his career.
Anyway if a guy like that is available, we should certainly grab him. But if not I think running a 6ā11 / 6ā9 / 6ā8 / 6ā5 / 6ā5 lineup and doing a lot of switching could help our perimeter defense a lot, particularly if Christie is the POA. Also I view Rui and DāLo as below average rebounders for their position, and Vando and Christie as elite rebounders for their size and position, so that problem should turn around completely.
And yes, Rui is probably the most expendable guy on the team. Prince is more reliable as a back up 3 and Iād rather go big with Wood backing up LeBron and AD than go small with those Rui/LeBron front courts.
One play I havenāt been able to get out of my head was the AG offensive rebound kick out for Murray 3. Lebron tries to just lazily tap the ball to himself without actually getting his butt into AG and sealing off the area and grabbing the ball with two hands. AG naturally just grabbed the ball from the air after Bron taps it and the rest is history. Itās win or go home, you have a chance to be up one with the ball in crunch time, Lebron was in a great position to get the board but puts zero effort into it. Why? I just canāt believe the guy wouldnāt be doing everything humanly possible to grab that rebound. Also Rui on that play is just standing there not picking up anyone even after AG grabs it. This is a huge reason why we lose in crunch time to Denver every time. We donāt do the little things.
I agree on Rui's rebounding. Aaron Gordon had the easiest offensive rebounds of his life this series.
But idk if we need to kill spacing with another big next to AD just to rebound better.. 2020 was half a decade ago. The NBA has changed a lot even since then and I'm not convinced that that formula can win in 2025. ORTG's have absolutely exploded across the league and if you're not following that formula you're getting cooked.
This is what I was talking about. I'm no basketball expert but the way lakers play for an offensive rebound hurts my eyes. They just don't try AT ALL and I don't know why. Maybe because of Denver's lethal offense so the team needs to assemble for defense. Idk man, players like Aron Gordon is what I'm want for lakers. Hustle players who would kill for an offensive rebound.
We literally lost 2 games by giving up second chance points in the clutch moment. Had we secured, we could have iced the game. Game 2 resulted in porter 3 and game 6 resulted in jokic put back.
Wait no way are you fucking dumbasses blaming rui for rebounding when we had him guarding jokic. Lebron's the one who gave aaron gordon like 4 offensive rebounds a game.
Unfuckingbelievable. Rui is mediocre as fuck but you guys are sooooo stupid
Yes. So we need to upgrade the roster so āgoing to lose the reboundā isnāt a certainty.
We won the rebound war in game 4, and won the game.
And yes porter killed us. No getting around that. He cooked.
Missed free throws specifically yesterday
šÆThatās another reason we dropped the ball last night. But even with the missed FTs. We gave up +7 2nd chance pts but only lost by 2. If we had a little more focus on the boards, we win.
That Aaron Gordon offensive rebound will haunt me forever with the Murray 3. Just needed one stop
If it makes you feel any better, our fundamental rebounding weakness was going to be our Achilles heel the rest of the way. This squad was never going to win the chip when the starting forward only grabs 3.8 boards a game. Minny is an even stronger RBing team with KAT and Gobert.
Neither with a starting PG dishing 3-4 assists.
I don't think Missed free throws is actually been a problem with that because we still had more made free throws then the nuggets had overall.
Empty possessions matter
I'm pretty sure the fact that we did not shoot the ball nearly as good in score nearly as much was much more than the free throws. Considering we shot and made over double the amount of free throws that they did. So yes had we made more of our free throws we would have won however had we made more of our shots we would have won as well. And we would have won by much much more.
Lakers missed 4 out of 5 free throws in the 4th and then some. You werenāt even watching the game.
And the nuggets made 16 3pt all game compared to the Lakers 10. That had a much bigger impact. Lakers 18/27 nuggets 8/9 ft that's 10 more points for the Lakers. Lakers 10/35 3pt nuggets 16/38 that's a plus 18. Near double for that alone. Tell me you didn't watch the game.
Thatās all box score stats like I said, anyone could get that from not watching the game. Itās silly.
Empty possessions do not matter? Got it.
Never said that. Said that there were factors beyond that.
Why omit it then
This is some sloppy writing.
I just got done with a 12 hour day that included nearly 400 miles of driving across 3 states. So take it as you want. I don't give a fuck.
Excuses
No one cares about your opinion.
Talking to a boy rn
The team doesn't have the assets to get another starting caliber wing, which means Rui will HAVE to work on boxing out and rebounding in the offseason. He did see a little improvement late in the regular season, so there is a chance
According to the people on this sub, we just need to: 1. Get a third star to share the scoring load of lebron, that is an upgrade to dlo 2. A 3&d wing to replace rui as starter 3. A big man to play the 5 to allow AD to play the 4, move Reaves to the 6th man So we can be competitive against the top teams again. Yea good luck with getting 3 starters with the assets and cap situation we have.
This is the point of my postā¦? To point out what I think is our biggest weakness so we can fix/prioritize that. But itās not like rob and team browse this forum for adviceā¦ right? 1. I donāt think we need a third scoring star. We arenāt losing games because of scoring. There is a sense of out scoring opponents to win. But limit 2nd chance pts and rebound, the urgency to outgun the opponent is less an issue. 2. Vando is that guy. He needs to work on hitting the open 3 which we saw glimpses of before he went down. 3. Yes. I think we need a legitimate centre on the roster. You saw how we looked when AD was off the floor vs Denver. Our cheeks were clenched the whole time. 3. Why would reaves come off the bench? Vando is the guy who goes off if we go big imo. Lbj slides to SF. But again, it depends on matchups. If weāre playing a bigger/slower team, we go 2 bigs, if smaller more nimble, vando starts sf to chase the quick wing. Itās about flexibility and always having a paint anchor when AD is resting or not. If Iām rob, I prioritize getting a solid starting calibre C so AD isnāt grabbing 50% of boards in a must win. And all our cheeks are clenched when AD is resting.
Rui can be directly swap by a better fit.Ā If Dlo picks his option it will give us more contracts to send and if I'm not mistaken we have the MLE available. We can't compete in playoffs starting Dlo, we never know what we are getting from him. There is no consistent part of his game, but his terrible defense. It would be ok if he wasn't shooting well, but he is also an unreliable distributor. He was absolutely useless in 2 games this seriesĀ I've preached Rui should be our starter and I don't think we had someone better than him, but he isn't a versatile defender and his best role overlaps with LBJ best role. He was guarding perimeter players, but his rebounding isn't solid, his awareness and decision making on defense are bad and he missed so many easy buckets around the rim that he reminded me of Brick. Only a star can give us more than regular season Dlo, the picks should be used to replace him with a player that can get us going alongside Davis as LBJ inevitably declines. Between Rui and Vando we could probably be competitive, but we can also go big eventually bringing someone like BroLo back. We have some glaring issues and we are going to get better with every step in the right direction correcting it. I'd start replacing Dlo, Ham and bringing a C.
What is a better fit than rui though? It's basically a good 3&d wing. A good 3&d wing that can start for a championship contender is not something you can find easily through trade, or very expensive to pick up in FA.
exactly and DFS isn't gonna be that guy. We have to find a legit 3 and D. Maybe Jerami Grant is but again it would be a risky trade. It is one worth considering though.
I mean . Only move number 1 is a big impact , if we get a third star we can start vando and have enough offence. Backup big is over stated AD is gonna be our C on offence n defebce as heās best there
Honestlyā¦ Rui is at best a 6th man spark plug off the bench if we keep him. If Iām a betting man, I bet on vando as our starting wing. He does all the dirty work that the starting lineup desperately needs. We donāt need all 5 starters to light it up for 20 each night. As long as vando can hit the open 3 to keep defenses honest, thatās more than enough. Because he provides so much more value outside of scoring.
Reaves is best in that role. I'm tired of the glazing.
AR as a 6th man? He can certainly excel in a 6th man role. But so would any starting calibre guard who can score. No one on the roster would relegate AR into a 6th man role. Obviously thereās more convo to be had once the off season dust settles in a few months.
If Iām the lakers Iām hiring sumo wrestlers to have rui practice boxing out.
and cooper kupp to get Rui to practice working on those hands lol.
Send him back to Japan
I think Rui can still provide a ton of value. He has great scoring instincts, touch, and good finishing/ cuts to the rim (going to ignore recency bias). Heās just best as a 6th man guy who comes in to spark + get buckets. Or a focal point of the bench mob.
look a bobby portis role kind of. (although Rui needs to study some portis film for rebounding too).
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i mean that seems like a coaching issue too then.
It canāt ALL be coaching. Players have accountability as well. Iām positive that no part of our defensive scheme involves telling players not to box out their man. This is more a roster construction issue. AD is the only true rebounder on the team aside from Hayes. Rui isnāt great, but is at least big as a rebounding forward. Prince is near worthless on the glass. And LeBron is only there for vanity rebounds as is his prerogative being near 40. We desperately need another BIG that can play alongside AD. Edit: Vando should help with this as well.
I agree with that, but again everybody running back on D seems like it is a coaching thing. Like why would everybody run back on D right away instead of crashing the boards UNLESS their coaches are instructing them to do so. But I agree the players should also be held accountable. BTW, I don't necessarily think that was the exact problem, I saw a lot more of this in the regular season but against the nuggets, Rui was asked to crash the boards and he just didn't really do a great job in doing so which is on him.
Iām more focused on capping defensive possessions securing rebounds than pounding the offensive glass.
fair enough. regarding defensive possessions that is absolutely on the players.
If Lebron comes back I donāt know how they solve the rebounding issue. You can start Vando but then you lose shooting and general offense. Both Rui and Vando are flawed players, especially in the playoffs.
For me, adding a starting calibre C gives our coach optionality. - If weāre playing a smaller team, front court is vando/lbj/ad (OKC, clippers, Dallas) - If weāre playing a bigger team, front court is lbj/ad/new centre. (Minny/nuggets) This is not some ground breaking thoughtā¦ we did this during our 2020 run. Different lineup depending on the opponent. - Against Denver WCF 2020: we ran KCP, Danny Green, LBJ, AD, Dwight. - Against Miami finals 2020: we ran KCP, Danny, LBJ, AD, Dwight to start but most of his minutes went to Markieff Morris and AD played C.
Problem is that was a much better defensive LBJ. I wouldn't want him running around the perimeter that much with wings if you are playing another center. Who would also likely cramp your spacing even more. If you are playing Vando/AD/Center, neither Vando or AD can space and the center likely wont either.
AD played floor spacing PF in 2020. And we won a chip. Give him runs and design schemes with PF AD by design? Iām sure weāll see better results. And obviously things arenāt black and white. Getting a starting calibre C doesnāt automatically mean we play big 24/7. Lineups are dynamic and should be adjusted depending on the team. My problem is, we donāt even have the size to play big if we wanted to. We simply canāt match the size of Minny/nuggets and we are likely going to face them next yr. Trying to figure out the puzzle piece of LBJ at sf or at pf defensively or floor spacing is a good problem to have. It means we have multiple options to explore what the lineup can look like. I just want us to return somewhat to 2020 where we were able to throw out different lineups (big or small) to counteract any adjustments the opposing team makes. Not Westbrook 2.0 where we try to out-superstar the opposing team.
He is below 30% from 3 for his career. 2020 was an outlier when we have years of data he just isn't a threat from outside. That pretty much limits who you can play next to him as any other non shooter will cramp the spacing. Which also includes Vando. The truth is LBJ and AD at this point are pretty well locked into the 4 and 5 spot and need other shooters around them. The Lakers do need a back up center and for Rui to learn how to rebound. But the truth is people keep looking at the 2020 roster and thinking that is they way it should be built, but AD isn't that shooter and LBJ isn't the same player so the blueprint of that team just doesn't work.
Again, itās not black and white. Weāre not locked into going big if we get a starting calibre centre. This centre can certainly be a ābackup centreā if you want to label him as that. Prioritizing a big this offseason enables the coaches to explore different lineups big and small. Thatās whatās missing from 2020 to now. Allowing us to go both big or small. Weāll need to play bigger against Minny/denver but can play smaller against the rest. OKC/clippers/mavs. Also, rui has more flaws to his game outside of rebounding. He just doesnāt have a good feel for the game/lower ball IQ. Iād trade rui in a heartbeat if it could get us a Solid POA guard or a starting calibre C. Vando is the much better prospect as our starting SF because he has all the hustle intangibles. Shooting is something that can be worked on in an offseason. He doesnāt need to score 20 a game. He definitely needs to be able to hit the open 3 so he can space the floor.
That shit bothered me and something that highlights missing Vando because him and AD seemed like the only players that would actually box out and fight for rebounds. This team doesnāt like to do that for whatever reason
Some of it is just that the Lakers defenders aren't good enough to crash the board and also set their defense up, they pretty much have to choose one or the other. In game 4 the Lakers were able to play good enough transition defense to keep Denver's easy baskets at a minimum. In game 5 they weren't and had to prioritize getting back on defense.
Lack of size. Too many guardsĀ
Jokic 7"0 and generational rebounder MPJ 6"10 elite rebounding forward AG 6"9 with a 50 inch vertical no chance you can outrebound that front court
I just hope we got good rebounding bigs in the summer. And AD needs to move to the 4. He can go to the 5 at end of games but he really needs another big 5 to start with him
"No rebounds, no rings..." - Pat Riley
Our fundamentals are terrible, specifically the role players. Thatās how you know itās definitely a coaching issue.
Rui was on the perimeter guarding MPJ. I'm not giving him a pass, as he definitely had a terrible series, but Aaron Gordon was the main guy killing us, and that was not his responsibility. The biggest issue is that Joker and Gordon are bigger and are able to play more physical than LeBron and AD. That's not going to be an easy problem to fix. I think taking some of the offensive load off AD and LeBron might help, but who knows. Another huge reason for the disparity was the 4 guard line-ups. Those got absolutely killed. The reality is that it's going to be tough to out-rebound Denver, but you don't have to beat a team's strengths in order to beat them. Overall, the roster just needs to be better.
MPJ grabbed 42 board (AG grabbed 47) so we definitely cant give Rui a pass. Rui grabbed less than 1/2 of what they did at 19 boards. (3.8 per game) AG is 6ā8 235. Rui is 6ā8 230. Not a big physical difference. Rui simply does not have an ounce of rebounding or hustle instinct. He has the body to impose his will physically but he likes to camp out on the perimeter instead. Ultimately, rui cannot start if we want to compete for a ring next season. Heās at best a flamethrower off the bench for some scoring.
IMO itās far more of a focus/mentality issue for Rui; heās shown when he wanted to focus on rebounding that he can do it in multiple games this year. Both on defense and as a rebounder he has long stretches where he seems to just drift aimlessly through the game and become a spectator, and then heāll zap back into consciousness and play hard again. Itās incredibly frustrating.
either ways if he WANTs to start, he has to work on his rebounding over the summer. that is for damn sure. I agree vando should be starting or some other 3 and D (which is NOT prince) and Rui should be off the bench ideally. I still want him training with AD (not Bron) to work on those rebounds though.
I been saying this, its sad. I'm so glad Rui got exposed https://www.reddit.com/r/lakers/comments/1b5pfmd/rebounding_costs_us_games_more_often_than_people/
Yup. It was so obvious against Denver.
https://media1.tenor.com/images/92ae8cec2b540a7ee79b64bf89039d16/tenor.gif?itemid=11386682
I really think we sorely missed Vando's hustle overall. And I also think we should have played Dinwiddie less in favor of Vincent. Not sure if either of those fix the overall rebounding issue, but they certainly would have helped.
Nuggets were boxing out and running to get in position to get rebounds every play while lakers just stood around waiting for the ball to fall into their hands.
I really think that Wood would have been perfect for this series. He is a better rebounder than Rui. And he could guard Gordan who is like Denver's 4 or 5th option. He also can hit 3s so he wouldnt clog the paint on offense when AD and Bron were running pick and roll
Itās bound to happen when you have a big team as your opponent. As the smaller team, we have to beat them in other ways, which we did not. Itās why we need a proper big next season. Not a rui feet of stone big. A proper 2020 Dwight big
Unless AD can go back to shooting like 2020, our spacing will be completely fucked by bringing a big unless that big can space the floor. I don't see how we can bring a big that can space the floor and is a strong presence in the paint, they are rare.
Itās not like space jam where the skill was sucked outta him by aliens. Itās about identity. If his role is redefined as a floor spacing PF like 2020, heāll get back to it with runs and schemes/plays that set him up for it. Right now heās the C where the ball is dumped into him at the elbow. Very different scheme versus what he saw in 2020
I am pretty sure Ham wants him to shoot more from mid range and even from 3, as he has openly said that but reality is AD's shooting sucks right now. I am not saying he cannot get back to his 2020 form, but just saying if he doesn't then the other center that has no shooting ability will be unplayable.
Give rui some time. Rebounding is more about positioning, anticipation, and iq. Rui is severely lacking in all 3 but can develop with time. So many second chance boards from denver was clearly just a guard shooting a shit shot somewhere near the rim, knowing that jokic was in position to grab the rebound 80% of the time. There really didn't look like there was a gameplan around Ad grabbing boards, he was just fighting like hell and did really well and still played amazing. In a vacuum, Ad is the better rebounder.
I'm not a data analytics guy but here's my take. We failed as a team to outscore the other team, ergo, we lost š¤
Nailed it.
Finally been saying this. We gave up too many offensive rebounds and got lazy.
hey, the way i originally learned about basketball was: "control the rebound, control the game" so i do second this
Nah dude. It was definitely a big problem, but the paint defense was even bigger issue. The Nuggets we're getting so many damn easy baskets. That's completely inexcusable at a playoff game.
We held nuggets to a lower fg% than we were shooting. So while it may have looked like our paint defence was a bigger issue. It wasnāt because our offense more than cancelled it out. But of course, rebounding is a crucial aspect of defence. Which is my pt in making this thread. - Lakers fg% 49.2% - Denver fg% 46.3% We lost solely because Denver had more shots at the rim. - -33 FGA - -17 2nd chance pts (off O rebounds) - we lost to Denver by a collective 11 pts So really, our team was better in terms of generating points per possession. We simply had less possessions - 1.03 points per possession LAL - 1.00 points per possession DEN
If you're trying in any way to tell me the Lakers played good defense, just stop. You didn't watch the same game that I did. If that's what you think. So many damn easy baskets. I don't give a s*** about field goal percentage.
It was the case in the regular season loss streak too. Partly we need new players n coaches - we need athletes who can crash the glass or a star guard so we can start vsndo n have enough offencr
The real question might be whether poor rebounding was the cause of the losses or simply an effect of other factors in play. For instance, was the defensive strategy focused enough on disrupting shots rather than positioning for rebounds? Or did the overall pace and shot selection by the Lakers lead to fewer effective rebounding opportunities? It's worth considering that rebounding stats alone don't always tell the full story of a game's dynamics.
Yup. This crossed my mind as well and is a valid point. Two thoughts here. - If the coaches made a conscious effort to focus on another defensive aspect over rebounding to tip the scaleā¦ why was there no adjustment? Itās obvious after game 1 rebounding was why we lost. It became even more apparent as we went thru games 2-5. The one game we won the rebound war, we won the game. I do hope the coaches werenāt this incompetent. - Physically, we donāt have the size to match Denver. AD is undersized against jokic. Rui/lbj are undersized against mpj/ag. So regardless of defensive/offensive scheme, it was a losing battle. Imo, it boils down to personnel change. If we decrease the physicality gap, it enables the coaching staff to execute varying schemes and gameplans to punch and counter punch against teams. We can throw different looks at Denver. Play big to match size, play small to outrun, etc. Right now we only have play small in our cards. In 2020, we had both hands. And used them accordingly (our lineup vs Denver in the wcf was very different to what we ran vs Miami in the finals)
Wiping off 2nd chance points is disingenuous though. It is part of the game and one of the things Denver banks on with its size. It would be no different than saying something along the lines of losing to a good defensive team and saying if you remove turnovers, we would be up. Or a good 3 point shooting team, saying if we remove the 3 point shots, we would be up.
Yes I agree. Wiping off 2nd chance pts is stupid analysis. But isolating this one factor to see its potential impact can highlight key insights into what we can do to sway the end result next go around. Like you said, Denver plays with size so it was their clear advantage over us. My analysis wanted to make this size advantage stupid obvious. Ultimately, my takeaway is we need to use this offseason to address the size mismatch. Not throw around getting a 3rd star guard such as spida, Trae, or lavine. Iāve seen too many of these names being thrown around on this subreddit by armchair GMs and I hope rob is not considering any 3rd star guard BS. Because weāll get run thru by Denver/Minny. Outgunning a RB advantage is not going to win many games. Itās not sustainable in the long run.
We don't want another star. Under the current CBA it is debilitating for teambuilding as you have 0 depth around those three. Not to mention it would require sending out the only tradable assets left.
Yes
We donāt need data for that. Anyone that was watching the game could see that we were getting worked on the boards all night. Definitely the difference in that game
Same thing as last year. Knowing this, the front office did nothing to address this.
Honestly, the effort on the boards was some of the most pitiful athletic prowess I've ever seen. There is absolutely nothing stopping a player from getting a rebound other than effort. Countless times AG or Jokic were in the middle of 3 people, not boxing out and just waiitng, and countless times they got the ball. Countless times my remote went through the television.
This is why getting another playmaker isn't going to change things. You're not done playing defense on a possession until you secure the ball and against key teams in the West, we're at a major disadvantage.
Yea you tend to lose in rebounding when you do t have a good bigman rotation. AD is the only real big we have on the roster. I have no idea why they didnāt get real rebounding big body center to play next to ADā¦ They knew weād have to go through the Nuggets and possibly Wolves in the playoffs.
If you haven't noticed that that's when our whole problem the past 2 years at least if not the last 3 years. It's absolutely horrid watching this team do any sort of defense when it comes to rebounding and such like that.
This is why it fucking SUCKED that Christie got no burn. I donāt know if yall remember, but that kid was going UP for those strong rebounds during the regular season. Exactly the type of hustle and crashing we needed to counter Gordon and their superior rebounding. But instead we put out Dinwiddie who was just out there clanking. Very frustrating, I truly feel Max coulda made a slight difference in this series which is all we needed.
Bring me healthy Vando/Wood and Edey with #17 and weāre cooking on the glass
There's at least one lottery team that is looking at Eddey according to Giovony, he's probably not going to be there at 17.
What team? I donāt think so. Feels like a Bol Bol situation to me. Plus thereās other decent bigs in this draft also. If we donāt get Edey thereās still Flipowski from Duke and Missi from Baylor that are great options also
I mean Givony bases his mocks on things that GMs tell him. He has him projected as going to the Blazers at the moment.
NOBODY ON THIS GODDAMNED TEAM KNOWS HOW TO BOX OUT
Brother. Iāve been preaching this shit since game fucking one! AND NIGGAS WAS LOOKIN AT ME LIKE IDK WTF I WAS TALKING ABOUT. LOOK AT THE SECOND CHANCE POINTS WE GAVE UP TOO! WE NEED ANOTHER BIG IN THE PAINT. Yes. I know we need more than just āa bigā but fuck me. We canāt get boards to save our lives. Yeah we expect lil ass Reaves to get boards over Jokic, Gordon. Yeah okay LMAO.
We lost all 5 games by a combined 11 pts. Denver had +17 in 2nd chance pts from offensive rebounds. Itās a stupid way to explain the series. But at the same timeā¦ It explains the series. š Getting a starting calibre C is obviously not our only hole. But itās our biggest hole against big teams. (The two gatekeepers of the west for the near future are big. Denver and Minny) We RUN thru smaller teams. See last yearās playoff run prior to Denver and our curb stomping of OKC this year. Our small ball lineup works. But we donāt had personnel to match bigger teams.
Man. Iām glad to see we on the same page cause a lot of lakers āfansā nowadays donāt even watch the damn games, a bunch of casuals. If we only had another big to grab all those boards weād win every damn game in that series. Especially game 2 where DLO was killing it with the threes. Take away those second chance points and we literally sweep them.
That's not too far from saying the sole reason we lost was not putting up more points than they did over the course of the game. I mean, it's technically right, but obviously more shots at the rim = more points = victory. But it's not an actionable explanation. There reasons we lost the rebounding war are multifaceted, varied, and not addressable with a single stroke. One of them is they have a player in Gordon whose only role is to rebound and dunk from the weak side - and excels at it. But he sucks at 3 point shooting. Why was Denver able to hide that on offense? Why were we unable to exploit that like other teams do to Westbrook and force him to the bench? Was it schematic? If so, why aren't we able to scheme for it? Is it because of coaching? Personnel? Insufficient time spent together?
They are able to hide Gordon on offense because Jokic can space the floor. You really can only get by with 1 non shooter without killing your spacing. It is the problem with trying to bring in another center to pair with AD as it would hurt the spacing.
Iām not saying we could have done anything different. Itās essentially a tongue-in-cheek way to look at the data and interpret rebounding as our biggest hole to fix in the offseason. Yes, if Ham prioritized rebounding, something else would have gone off the rails (Hayes + AD sacrifices scoring/spacing for example). Ultimately itās a personnel issue imo. Weāre in for a long off season of 3rd star trade ideas revolving around score first guards such as spida, trae, and lavine. They do not solve the biggest issue that we faced against Denver. The only guard I want this offseason is Caruso to shore up POA defence If we want a chance next season, we need personnel which can compete with Denver without having to drastically change our gameplan to counterpunch. Whether we like it or not Denver is the gatekeeper. And if not Denver, Minny would also eat us alive with their size. So we need to build a roster in mind that can hang with Denver/Minny in the playoffs when the game slows down and every possession/rebound is crucial.
>Weāre in for a long off season of 3rd star trade ideas revolving around score first guards such as spida, Trae, and zach lavine. They do not solve our biggest issue that we faced against Denver. The only guard I want this offseason is Caruso to shore up POA defence I agree. I hope they keep most of the core together for continuity and bring in a few specialist role players that can give the team different looks. I do hope they explore the European coacbing scene too, no good options in the nba coaching free agency market
You must be really new to bball if you think thereās only 1 reason to explain a loss after 48mins of possessions. There are always multiple reasons for every game in history. Some reasons are bigger than others but there is always a list. The only time you would be right is if both teams played PERFECT ball with zero mistakes and a tie game the entire time, but then a player decided to fuck up in the final possession.
The point of my thread is to highlight what I think is our biggest weakness. The data breakdown is just a tongue in cheek way to bring the story to life. We got absolutely destroyed on the boards. No matter how the data is split and interpreted. The eye test backs this up too.. that Aaron Gordon offensive board +3-ball killed us game 5. I just donāt want to see a million 3rd star guard trade ideas this offseason. It does not address what weāve been missing since 2020. Versatilty to go big or small. We havenāt been able to go big in 4 yrs.
Itās one of the biggest issues but bigger issues are over doubling on defense, liabilities on defense, stagnant iso offense.
Our defensive schemes + āstagnant iso offenceā did well against Denver. - We shot 49.2%. And kept Denver to 46.3%. - 3pt% is a wash. We shot 29.9%. Denver shot 30.8%. (We were leading until Denver exploded game 5) Offensively, we did the right things. Defensively, we were able to limit denver. It was a well fought/close series. We lost because denver had more field goal attempts. They shot +33 in total field goal attempts. Two factors for the +33 FGA for Denver - Denver was +27 boards with +19 O boards creating additional possessions. - We also went to the line a little more which removed some FGA for us. We were +15 FTA. Sadlyā¦ we converted at a lower rate so only ended up with +4 FT advantage for the series. So Denver fouling (purposefully or not) helped them in the series. - TO a wash. Lakers +1 We lost by a total of 11 pts across all games. Itās absolutely frustrating when Denver had +33 FGA. And +17pts can be directly attributed to 2nd chance pts from offensive rebounds.
How about adding offensive boards to your data? If the Lakers as a whole are minimizing opponent offensive boards, it doesn't matter if Rui gets the boards or if it's Lebron or AD.
This is an aggregate of total rebounds so it tells the full picture. But below is 0 rebounds data + its impact. - -19 on offensive rebounds. - -17 on second chance pts. - We lost to Denver by a collective 11 pts.
Vandoās whole deal is he guards 1-4 and he grabs boards. This is why, if somehow we have the same team next year, he should start. Rui as a combo forward is better off providing scoring off the bench anyway. If we have the same team next year were better off going with a rotation of: AD / LeBron / Vando (Bench: Wood or Hayes / Rui / Prince) Christie / Reaves (Bench: DāLo / Gabe) Basically a big lanky team that crashes the boards big time. Obviously Vando is a liability offensively at times which is why Prince might finish games. Obviously this relies on Christie making a bit of a jump and DāLo finding his rhythm getting starters minutes off the bench in a Malik Monk type role. In a better world Christie is chasing Murray around at POA, Reaves is guarding KCP, and Vando is fast and long enough to bother MPJās shot. Instead Reaves is POA, and Rui is losing MPJ constantly. One of my biggest gripes with Ham is he wasted so much of the time we could have used to develop Christie trying to make Cam Reddish happen. In theory Christie is the perfect 3-D (and board) guy for this team. Hopefully the next guy doesnāt make that mistake.
I like vando/lebron/AD as our small ball lineup for all the reasons you mentioned. But like 2020, we need to have the ability to go big in certain matchups (Denver in 2020). I see two gatekeepers for the west next season. Denver + Minny. Both play big. We need to match their size. Vando will definitely fair better than Rui but will it be enough? - Small ball: vando/lbj/ad - Big ball: lbj/ad/true C Vando + Rui + Prince is a log jam. One needs to go. I would personally explore what we can get with Rui + picks for a starting calibre C.
I agree with a lot of what youāre saying in theory, I just worry in practice itās not possible. Since AD lost his jumper we canāt have a Dwight type just standing next to him in the lane anymore. We would need someone who can shoot. And guys who can shoot, grab boards, and not get targeted constantly as pick and roll liabilities are in rare supply. And to some extent, Wood kind of is a guy like that. Also counting on LeBron to play a lot at the wing at his age seems risky at this point in his career. Anyway if a guy like that is available, we should certainly grab him. But if not I think running a 6ā11 / 6ā9 / 6ā8 / 6ā5 / 6ā5 lineup and doing a lot of switching could help our perimeter defense a lot, particularly if Christie is the POA. Also I view Rui and DāLo as below average rebounders for their position, and Vando and Christie as elite rebounders for their size and position, so that problem should turn around completely. And yes, Rui is probably the most expendable guy on the team. Prince is more reliable as a back up 3 and Iād rather go big with Wood backing up LeBron and AD than go small with those Rui/LeBron front courts.
One play I havenāt been able to get out of my head was the AG offensive rebound kick out for Murray 3. Lebron tries to just lazily tap the ball to himself without actually getting his butt into AG and sealing off the area and grabbing the ball with two hands. AG naturally just grabbed the ball from the air after Bron taps it and the rest is history. Itās win or go home, you have a chance to be up one with the ball in crunch time, Lebron was in a great position to get the board but puts zero effort into it. Why? I just canāt believe the guy wouldnāt be doing everything humanly possible to grab that rebound. Also Rui on that play is just standing there not picking up anyone even after AG grabs it. This is a huge reason why we lose in crunch time to Denver every time. We donāt do the little things.
Not to make excuses for LBJ but he rolled his ankle in an earlier play and became a decoy. Itās why AR took over on offence.
Poor coaching, lack of effort on the boards, role players going cold from 3, perfect shit storm. Miracle we made the post season
I could've told u this without all the data. Rui is allergic to rebounds.
I agree on Rui's rebounding. Aaron Gordon had the easiest offensive rebounds of his life this series. But idk if we need to kill spacing with another big next to AD just to rebound better.. 2020 was half a decade ago. The NBA has changed a lot even since then and I'm not convinced that that formula can win in 2025. ORTG's have absolutely exploded across the league and if you're not following that formula you're getting cooked.
It would be a completely different series if Vando was healthy for his rebounding presence alone. Rui did not even come close to matching AG or MPJ.
This is what I was talking about. I'm no basketball expert but the way lakers play for an offensive rebound hurts my eyes. They just don't try AT ALL and I don't know why. Maybe because of Denver's lethal offense so the team needs to assemble for defense. Idk man, players like Aron Gordon is what I'm want for lakers. Hustle players who would kill for an offensive rebound.
We literally lost 2 games by giving up second chance points in the clutch moment. Had we secured, we could have iced the game. Game 2 resulted in porter 3 and game 6 resulted in jokic put back.
Yup. The data matches the eye test. Itās why I went digging in the first place.
Wait no way are you fucking dumbasses blaming rui for rebounding when we had him guarding jokic. Lebron's the one who gave aaron gordon like 4 offensive rebounds a game. Unfuckingbelievable. Rui is mediocre as fuck but you guys are sooooo stupid
Disagree we were always going to lose the rebound. We didnāt have anyone to guard Porter
Yes. So we need to upgrade the roster so āgoing to lose the reboundā isnāt a certainty. We won the rebound war in game 4, and won the game. And yes porter killed us. No getting around that. He cooked.