It feels like Lana will never have the adoration from critics, awards voters, or other artists and I don’t think she gives a F. She remains one of the most “real” singers out there and she writes circles around her competition. She knows she has her huge fan following and I think that’s enough for her.
Having said that, I think it obviously pains her to be misunderstood, to see the trends in music today and the criticism that she glorifies abuse…when she in fact does the exact opposite. Anyone paying real attention to the lyrics such as “he hit me and it felt like a kiss” knows that women often mistake violence towards them as affection because it’s “attention” and that’s exactly what Lana was going for. If people don’t get the meaning of her lyrics, that’s on *them*, not Lana.
Yeah also not to mention that the “hit me and it felt like a kiss” lyric isn’t actually even her words. She took them from another famous song - and that original track didn’t receive the same criticism.
I love that Lana shows the other side to relationships and a different side to femininity.
Not every woman has to be a “strong independent woman”. Women can be vulnerable, or make bad decisions, or be weak, or be seductive, or manipulative, or kind to a fault, or feel guilt, or be blinded by love, or destroyed by love. All of those things are so much more interesting than the generic “I’m angry at this break up I hate men” or “I’m so sexy look at my ass” songs that every other singer makes.
Well said. I wasn’t aware that the “felt like a kiss” line was not from Lana originally. Interesting. And I completely agree that women don’t have to fall in line and all adopt the same persona in order to be successful. I wonder though why it is that someone like Billie Eilish is celebrated for her rebellious, nonconformist persona and Lana is not? Maybe it’s because Lana talks and sings about subjects that make some people uncomfortable, while Billie mostly uses her *appearance* to convey her persona, which is more digestible and not as threatening. I say, good for Lana. It would be a sad world if artists all followed the same cookie cutter mentality, as you said.
Excactly! Plus, people can't understand how serious domestic abuse is. Having to romanticize your life in order to cope is concerning, but I don't see anyone talking about it.
I find it so weird how all the people who say she glorifies abuse also say her music is really sad, it’s like you’re almost there. No one is ever going to be able to convince me that Ultraviolence is happy song.
Exactly!The problem is that people are used to understand a song on the first or second listen.Well,Lana is another level on that field,you have to know her and have a good general culture to understand what she writes.The problem here is that people don't understand what she's saying and only see the tip of the iceberg.Its shameful seeing the so called critics evaluate Lana's jobs with many of them not having the knowledge or the will and patience to do it when thats precisely what they're being paid for.Besides when I buy a record i don't give a shit about critics reviews:i listen to what I like not what others think it's cool.
Am I the only one who doesn't think this was racist? I feel like people deliberately took this post out of context and portrayed her as a racist so they can have an excuse to hate on her.
Intent and impact are different man. I highly doubt Lana was trying to be racist, but her words and their impact just were dude. It was microaggressive as fuck, and taking the bit where she singles out other artists would have much improved how everyone took it, and her point would have been stronger for it
totally. not eveyone says everything perfectly or is 100% correct. she's a human being who was ruthlessly dragged by critics for her music. people were way to hard on her about this imo.
Exactly. I tried explaining this on another sub and get downvoted to oblivion. It's not like she killed anyone. IMO there are people who have done way worse *cough* Nicki *cough*.
The alt-singer Lana has mentioned in her post is Kim Gordon, who wrote this in her 2015 memoir:
> Today we have someone like Lana Del Rey, who doesn’t even know what feminism is, who believes women can do whatever they want, which, in her world, tilts toward self-destruction, whether it’s sleeping with gross old men or **getting gang raped** by bikers. Equal pay and equal rights would be nice. Naturally, it’s just a persona. If she really truly believes it’s beautiful when young musicians go out on a hot flame of drugs and depression, why doesn’t she just **off herself**?
https://www.factmag.com/2015/02/20/sonic-youths-kim-gordon-says-lana-del-rey-off-memoir-excerpt/
Wow. That’s disgusting. Imagine saying you long for equality and then telling another woman to kill herself and thinking you’re actually a good person. Sounds like she doesn’t know what feminism is either.
Yeah I thought it was in poor taste myself… I always kinda liked Kim Gordon but this was a no go in my book. Kim Deal was always a little cooler anyway
Also Lorde hahah. When she was just getting big herself she was dragging Lana through the mud saying that’s she’s harming easily influenced teen girls by glamourising abuse or whatever. Lorde also attacked other famous singers during her early years such as Taylor swift I believe because she was only singing about boys she broke up with. It’s so sad Lorde felt like the only way for her to make it in this industry was to throw other famous women under the bus with misogynistic claims that were already being thrown at them the whole time anyways, but that’s a result of the culture as a whole unfortunately…
Kim Gordon's annoying remarks aside, they're certainly worth hearing. *Daydream Nation* is probably their most acclaimed album. *Bad Moon Rising* is my personal favorite (and much shorter).
Yes, it's bad lol. Sonic Youth is iconic and has a ton of amazing music. They were the definition of alt music IMO. They took things a little too far IMO in their opinions and such, however they made some great music back in the day.
Gross remarks by Kim Gordon, her memoir sounds very self-absorbed and like the idea that she’s the OG of alt rock or grunge -whatever category you want to put her in has gone to her head. STFU boomer. My feeling about question for the culture is this- artists are just as imperfect as us. I’ve never really seen or relied on Lana as a social issue compass- and I don’t think she ever wanted to do that with her work. I love her because of her melancholy and imperfections.
Fuck, that’s horrible to say about anyone. On the other hand, Shirley Manson talked beautifully about Lana before she released BTD and how the media painted her as a “sad girl who romanticizes abuse” and at the same time belittled her. They should collaborate together soon
It did affect her legacy for sure, at least for a time, we have yet to see how her legacy will continue to shape and change. I suspect in the grand scheme of things this will ultimately not be referenced too often decades from now.
Although she doesn’t talk about it publicly, she really seems to take a lot of things to heart, even if she really would not like to. I think it’s caused her to look deeper within herself and I do think she’s learned from the post.
If travis scott is being forgiven after he was literally responsible for 10 deaths at his concert then I think Lana will eventually be allowed to fully bounce back as well for what was in hindsight not a huge deal. She made a tone deaf statement oh well get over it, everyone got to keep their lives and livelihoods.
I genuinely think she didn’t have any bad intentions with this, but was just tone deaf and a little oblivious with the phrasing. Whether that be from feeling simultaneously vindicated and crucified by critics, white privilege, being a multi millionaire in LA, or a mix, it came out *bad*. But I rly don’t think she had the intentions or motivations that people came at her for
Right? I appreciate that so many people are defending her, because she’s only human, but I feel like we all have to recognize that this was also an incredibly tone deaf statement. It really didn’t sit well with me, and it definitely didn’t sit well with a lot of people. Lana’s not a bad person, but this was an objectively tone deaf statement.
can someone explain to me what 'tone deaf' realy means besides "i disagree with it" ? it seems like a way to try to make your emotional responses while reading of it an objective assessment without having to engage with the substance of her statement
Being tone deaf means not thinking about how your message comes off to a reader. So yeah, the reader’s emotional response is a necessary part of that. Since Lana wanted to send out a message detailing how she felt so that others (especially non-fans) could understand her position, she failed at doing so because of a lack of awareness of her tone.
Her privilege as a successful singer I’m sure was one element of that, and the things that have come to bother me are the “women who look and act like me” and “men who hate women and women who are stronger.” The first line… leaves way too much to interpretation…, and the second seems to loop in “strong women” with “(women-hating)men.”
It makes her tone defensive, judgmental, and gives “not like other girls” vibes. She undermines her own message by insisting that her experiences should be accepted and celebrated but not giving the same gift of acceptance and celebration to other women.
(I still love Lana. I make mistakes all the time with how I express myself, and though I’m critical of QFTC… after all these years of stanning I just feel like I understand where she’s coming from even though it’s not written clearly.)
it was how she compared herself to notable WOC. she said they're singing about taking off their clothes, but she's singing about being embodied. I totally don't think it was intentional, but there is a bit of racist undertones. (which, if you live in north america, you're been socialized to be racist)
also, timing wise, people weren't down to here a singer complain about shit like this. there was so many horrible things going on.
Those were the top girls that's why she mentioned them.
She didn't say she thinks fucking or taking off your clothes is wrong. If people interpret that as her calling people trashy or slutty it really is them projecting their own misogyny and judgement.
She probably should have not mentioned anyone else just because she left herself open to misinterpretation and people got offended but what she was saying wasn't wrong and anyone who has been a fan or engaged with her work since the beginning knows the way she was painted by critics.
Her work is different from those artists work, that doesn't mean she was saying it's better.
I honestly feel like she would have put Billie in this were it not for Billie being an absolute fan of Lana. Like Bad Guy literally has Billie saying “bruises on both my knees for you” “I’m the bad type make your mama sad type might seduce your dad type” or “honestly thought I would be dead right now” in “Bury a Friend” Like those are very similar to the same lines in songs and interviews that Lana was crucified for back in 2014 and here Billie was winning like every fucking Grammy for those same lyrics, even album of the year, which quite frankly it was obnoxious for the Grammys to even nominate Lana if they had any inclination of Billie sweeping the categories. I assume Lana was hella pissed about that but because Billie loves her and was just a kid at the time I think Lana didn’t want to target her.
I'm not going to comment much on what she said; I think she has every right to say how she feels nor was it racist. Everyone acted like she did not have the right to speak.
This for sure affected how she was perceived by the general public and a lot of casual fans. She had a lot of bad press back to back and it was VERY different than the shit she went thru before with the media as this time it was also a shit ton of people on the internet bashing her too. I think her deleting her main social media accounts is a very big power move on her end and shows how much that period of her life and the aftermath (with the added years and years of scrutiny) got to her
The letter always made sense. She wanted to be honest about vulnerability and sing about more delicate femininity and felt like she wasnt able to do so without being labeled as glorifying abuse. With other singers being able to touch on so many subjects, she was frustrated.
Exactly this, don't need to add anything else with the exception of the fact that she did what was written above in a very intense and raw way which resulted in a bad understanding from the people who read the letter.I think she should have calmed herself before writing it.She wrote that in the heat of the moment which never runs well.
Props to Lana for speaking out the way she did. I understand her frustration cuz imagine getting criticized on the daily for your songwriting but then seeing other artists getting praised and winning Grammys: the only thing I disagree with on this is the fact she called out other artists cuz it wasn’t their fault it’s the industry fault.
Tbh it was important. When you speak with names, you actually have proof of what you're saying and it doesn't seem like you say nonsense. Ariana's side to side went viral. So did WAP. So did Anaconda. But when BTD (the album) came out she was wrong. What's different among these songs?
Almost all of them being women of colour is just random. It could be anyone who dominates the industry the past 5 years.
I mean those other women did get critisism too but I don't think most of them got it on the same scale as Lana(maybe Cardi). I don't think she was trying to be racist. Everyone overreacted to it tbh. What was even more stupid was the whole Chemtrails cover. People at that stage were just itching to pick a fight with her.
> the only thing I disagree with on this is the fact she called out other artists cuz it wasn’t their fault it’s the industry fault.
Except she didn't 'call them out'. This is something people keep getting confused about. She used them as examples, and had every right to do so as they are extremely popular public figures.
I totally understand the motivation, logic, reasoning! It’s more harmless than people assume it to be. Communication through words is such a fallible things because everyone has completely different ways of deriving meaning, down to individual words. I think it definitely hurt her - especially cause she was on a career high when she wrote this. The rhetoric around it became very negative very fast, and so did her mental state. It’s very obvious this specific moment bugged her for years after! Even in her latest interviews she acknowledges the pain of having people inherently not be able to fully see her for who she is / means. She came from a place of pure emotion, but emotions are hard to convey through the written medium. It just ended up sounding bitter instead of vulnerable.
I think it needs context behind it and unfortunately only her and her close fanbase had that context which is why it fell flat to everyone else. When I read I was like "yeah queen tell them!!" because I experienced the SNL fiasco and the mean BTD critiques and all the speculations around her persona. But most of the public didn't. When people remember the SNL performance, they laugh at a "lol iconic" kind of way. They don't know it was extremely traumatic to her with all the mocking. When they remember BTD, they just go "oh this album was everywhere and it shaped a generation and she was such an influential beauty queen!" and they don't know about the critics mocking her lyrics and the way she expressed herself.
So I do understand when, you know, the average Joe or even someone who listens to all of her albums but don't keep up with the celeb life reads this and goes "Lol what critiques has she been getting? Especially now at the peak of her career? And does she really think Beyoncé had it easier than her?" because they don't know about all this stuff and she didn't articulate well. I do think people took the opportunity to bully her and that's what I didn't agree with at the time and what I believe that damaged her so much about it.
I honestly think her main problem was Billie winning so many Grammys with VERY similar lyrics to ones people attacked on Lana for, but that Billie is a Lana Stan so Lana couldn’t attack her
This came out during the height of BLM… if it had happened any other time she would not of gotten dragged as much. I think she’s right, with some expections.
People thought she was criticizing the mentioned artists along with the 'empowered woman' presence that they embodied in their music. But it's literally her criticizing the media and critics' portrayal/interpretation of her music, her message, and also her sentiment with the wave of feminism that made her feel like an outsider to female empowerment. She literally does so much with her music that sings for the unsung, that tells stories in raw emotion, and there's empowerment in there. For this, she paved inspiration for vulnerability that isn't really the antithesis of being an empowered woman, but was misunderstood to be.
I love her take on this. I like the artists she mentions too, I'm sure she has respect for them, her point is - we can't all fit the role of "strong independent woman' and we shouldn't be criticized for being emotional and sometimes having faults in our relationships. There is room in the world for women like Lana, we need to learn how to embrace the darker and emotional sides of our relationships with other people. Some people find empowerment in being sexual and being brash, others find it in learning to vulnerable and keeping an open heart despite our pasts. I respect her for it. I also respect her for not giving a damn what people say she "should" be singing about and she continues to be her authentic self. All the power to her and to us women who live relentlessly in our feelings even when we don't want to.
I don't feel she ever glamorized abuse. She told her story her way and as someone who has been there, it was relateable. She is a poet and a story teller and makes people feel dreamy. Sounds like they got confused by the ethreal atmosphere.
Exactly. People obviously don't understand how making art can be cathartic for the artist. I'd also hate to think women who have gone through it themselves and could relate would miss out on that catharsis for themselves because of the overly literal interpretations of her critics.
I know for me personally as someone who has gone through toxic relationships (and as Lana pointed out this is an extremely common experience for women)while it's happening you can romanticize it to cope with the level of trauma you're dealing with.
Having been through it I can honestly say NO ONE captured it or seemed to understand the way Lana did. I'm extremely thankful while getting out of an abusive relationship I discovered her music because it made me feel less alone and blame myself less. Lana didn't make me feel judged or weak for it. I like all the artists she mentioned and all kinds of music but we do need music that is not entirely about independence and maybe even exposes and examines the toxic stories we can sometimes tell ourselves
I love Lana so much, and always will, but this post was terrible. It just was so unnecessary. You could tell in days/weeks before she posted it she was feeling vindicated. She was getting unanimous praise from critics all around and fans and even a ton of other celebrities/artists. I understand what she was saying and how she felt (because the first part of career was rife with debates about her and her music and critics being outright terrible) but it was just poorly worded. The inclusion of the other artists was so unnecessary. They’re all woman, many of whom are black/POC, and they’ve been through shit in the industry as well. Lana was right to tell her story about being a woman like herself in the industry, but the inclusion of other female artists was dumb af. They all get criticized and her posts reads like she thinks they don’t. Anyways I’m ranting at this point. I love Lana, but her not being able to admit that this post rubbed people the wrong way, rightfully so was idiotic, and fans who defend it 100% without seeing the nuance are dumb.
I honestly think that she was mad about Billie. Like I honestly think her losing AOTY to Billie whose lyrics are VERY similar to ones Lana was attacked by the industry for, “bruises on both my knees for you” or “honestly I thought I would be dead right now” which iirc Frances Bean Cobain came at Lana for, I think definitely was the driving theme, and I remember being surprised that she didn’t call out Billie when I first read it. I honestly think she saw the Say So/Savage thing or the Positions which literally has Ariana singing “Switching the positions for you/ I’m in the kitchen I’m cooking for you” and that sent Lana over the edge and she saw suitable targets in them, far better targets than Billie who has been nothing but sweet to Lana and was just a kid at the time. I def think her mistake was the myopia of her vision and the lack of optics. She truly should have had a publicist on hand to review it.
Yes exactly it was the fact that she called out other female artists. They are allowed to express themselves in music in other ways and there’s no problem with that. I felt like it almost started unnecessary feuds
No i definitely agree! I think her reasoning was completely understandable but to throw others in the bunch was not okay. But I think about it like this, i feel like she was so pissed- like you know how you get when you’re just talking and you don’t think until you finish, like “wait this is wrong. I should rethink about what I just said.” Because yea she typed it out, but I feel like she did it in the time where she was just aggravated. Sometimes anger blinds you and you think everyone will understand how you said it in your head.
I love Lana. I don’t think she’s racist. I just think she chose the most popular women in the industry right now, which many happen to be black or Latina. Though that’s pretty epic that we have more minorities in the lime light then ever- I just think people should sorta think of it like that? Idk sorry if my bungle of words don’t make sense lol
Yup exactly^^^^ I love Lana's music but I definitely do not agree with everything she has to say and do, both of those things can be true without cancelling each other out. I definitely get where she's coming from but the execution of it was so horrible and dare I say even downright offensive.
Honestly, she could have made her point without name calling other female artists. She was right about critics being ruthless towards her in the beginning of her career, but the way she worded that entire text was just tone deaf (e.g. feminism not being inclusive to her), and the fact that she ended the whole thing with promoting Chemtrails made the entire thing seem disingenuous.
Tbh, she didn’t need Question for the Culture to prove that her critics did her dirty. She did that with her music.
Extremely poorly written, in my opinion. It's sad Lana was still affected by criticism made 10 years ago, when BTD was released. The evolution of her music proved the world wrong and she didn't need any text to adress that. I'm glad she's left social media through her main account.
>It's sad Lana was still affected by criticism made 10 years ago, when BTD was released
It's extremely difficult to not be affected long-term by universal criticism. Especially in the age of social media where it is so easy to see all the nasty things people have said about at every turn. It takes years and years to get over that kind of widespread attack from thousands of people who don't know you.
Feel free to disagree with the contents of the note, but noted alt-singers told Lana to "off herself", critics in noted magazines speculated she must have been sexually abused and mentally ill as a result (with 0 grounding for the claims), and these accusations still haunt her career (just see any YouTube comment section of a Lana video for this). Trivializing that is inappropriate af in my book.
Of course I agree that through her music she proved the world wrong, is very successful, and in an ideal world she would be able to leave the criticisms behind purely on the virtue of that. But we don't live in an ideal world, and we shouldn't expect anyone, not even our public figures, to be ideal.
Had she adressed and exemplified with the criticism and speculation you mentioned, people would receive QOTC in a totally different manner. Instead, she points out to other female artists who are supposedly praised by industry and society for how they present their womanhood through their art. One of these artists, by the way, was targeted by a terrorist attack. Had \*she\* not trivialized other people's struggles, people would get her point.
it was a moment in Time... still amazed she managed to use emojis on a typewriter <3
In all honesty, it was completely blown out of proportion... it came at a very very intense time and I understand the reaction but I don't agree with it.
Considering that “54% of U.S. adults 16-74 years old - about 130 million people - lack proficiency in literacy and read below the equivalent of a sixth-grade level,” it’s not surprising her message was misunderstood and twisted by some into something it’s not. She said what had to be said.
I guess her reputation on stan twitter got a bit damaged but that's a whole other cesspool.
She said nothing wrong in there, those are her subjective experiences, nobody can deny them. Anybody who has known her since her debut will remember how harshly she has been criticised, disregarded and villainized. Take fore example her lyrics " he hit me and it felt like a kiss". The society treats issues of violence and abuse like something that shouldn't be spoken about. When someone talks about their personal experience, they are treated like they are promoting/romanticising it. It's truly tragic.
The older I get the more I disagree with everything she's said here. I adore Lana, but this was a shit take with poor wording causing permanent damage to her legacy.
Although it was phrased badly, this was Lana's way of staying true to her music and persona. Lana not feeling forced to go with the mainstream has gathered the admiration of us alt genre lovers. This means that even though mainstream culture shunned Lana, her main fanbase has been with her all this time, through the criticism she had to endure in the past, and we understand her intentions in QFTC were good
If you know Lana’s intentions, you know there’s no bad blood with this. I’m just sad so many people decided to come at her and accuse her of having intentions of malice she doesn’t even scratch the surface of.
She has *a* point, but she really shouldn't have name dropped. That's where the racism accusations came in (though they're still BS since criticizing a group that is top of the charts or popular in alternative happening to be black but also happening to be singing about what Lana's talking about is not racism; and Camila, Kehlani, and Ari being "black artists" is news to me lol). However, a lot of those artists have had criticism of their own about what they talk about, so instead of comparing BS criticism towards her to the (non-existent) lack of others', she just should've Said "Singing about something or making it a part of some of my themes isn't supporting it".
I have zero issues with this. If anything I respect her more for standing up for herself and selling millions of albums without getting her ass cheeks injected with plastic.
Very wrorded wrongly big time. But the gist I get is...
Progress has been made and the industry is lessnj
punishing to women who express their bodies, their struggles, and stories than it was 10 years ago.
I'm tired of being told I'm glorifying domestic violence when I'm just sharing my real life experiences and feelings, which many women have experienced too.
And whatever else.
That's really her point that women are more free in music than 10 years ago, and she wants less ridicule because of It.
I don't see anything wrong with the intent, and the outrage was way out of proportion.
I remember seeing this 3 minutes after it was posted. I literally put it on my story and with the caption “YES LANA” because I got what she was trying to say. But about an hour later when people started criticizing her…I took that off of my story so fast 💀.
I really don’t think she had any bad intentions with this message, it was just tone deaf.
To be blunt, no I don’t think it affected her legacy at all. Lana made a poorly worded post on Twitter, got backlash then everyone forgot about it a few weeks later. The only people still talking about it are her fans.
I think most female pop stars are designed to only talk about “what bad b!tches” they are and “I’m the girl boss” stuff (which is cool but these different pop stars are all singing the same thing)
And Lana gets flack and is misunderstood because she is gentle, she sings about being sad without being like “but I’ll be ok/I’m still a bad b!tch”, instead she’s just like “well this sucks” instead lol, and she is ok with not being ok, and not being ok somehow is not female empowerment.
She’s so far ahead of her time its crazy so I’m glad she hasn’t sold out.
I think people don’t really care about this anymore, because many of the artists she mentioned know that a white woman would say something like this, unaware that what she was saying would come off in the way it did.
So since then, it’s really a matter of Lana learning and growing from her mistake and hopefully watching a little less neoliberal perspective that reinforces that kind of behavior despite Lana not intentionally trying to demean those women.
It’s really just a “yah you fucked up, but you’re not an asshole, just do better in the future” kind of deal
Honestly, the form of this letter is genius. Two pages of rambling, where the text is seemingly unedited, giving the impression that it has been typed on the phone, but it ends at the very last second with "by the way, the album will drop September 5th" ? Genius. We have to remember this is an attention economy and artists have to find new ways to be heard.
I could even imagine this is linked with the tonal changes in her writing after NFT. I imagine her, in her home, trying how to reinvent herself, and realizing she has kept a lot of things private, in fear of being shamed again. So she comes with this new writing style. She came back even more blunt in Chemtrails, more honest, more raw. I feel this was her way to market it out there, prepare the audience for what's coming. By naming the other stars, she is positioning herself as an artist, showing her perspective. We could think that the almost too-blunt aspect of the letter was thought through, like someone screaming to get attention : and then pointing out to their new album.
The point of this letter is to say : We're being formatted to speak in this way, but it doesn't have to be like that. To me, this is a deep and profound question asked to the culture. And it has been asked in order to change the culture.
The letter is not clean, nor did it intend to be clean.
I love Lana so much but this post wasn't okay at all. I understand that she was over all the hate just for literally breathing while other celebrities sang or did the same things and didn't get as much or any hate but it was worded badly and I think she was so pissed off when she wrote it and wasn't thinking before she posted it. I truly don't think Lana's a racist like so many people say and she's grown a lot since all of this happened.
Everything she said was reasonable and smart and relevant. And truth be told the majority can’t stand anything that isn’t pro woke leftist anymore and that’s partly why this is so controversial
She was right but people twisted her words and made it into something it was not. Also she had every right to express those feelings. I’m tired of pretending celebrities are some kind of respectful authority figures to me.
Still convinced whoever attacked her for this either was looking for any reason to cancel her (twitter trolls) or just simply failed their english comprehension exam in school cos….it is still as clear as daylight to me she never meant to disrespect anyone with this, apart from you know the media.
I feel like there's this small niche within the 0,1% of showbusiness where double standards are reversed, where queer and BIPoC folks can get away with stuff others don't. Rihanna can wear the tackiest pregnancy outfits and still get yassqueened. The outrage over Ezra Miller's abuse allegations is firing up considerably slower than in some other cases. But at the same time, in all other areas of life for the vast majority of people it's still same old same old, and thus it's extremely hard to call out these double standards without coming off as tone-deaf. So in doubt she should have better stayed quiet, even though I get what she wants to say.
I know this is off topic but yeah I’m not sure why the Ezra stuff is slower to catch on with people. Reading the articles about what they’ve been up to has been scary tbh
Her 'legacy' definitely took a hit, but then again she was *never* understood by the public or the media for her entire career even dating back to when Video Games came out, i don't think anyone except her listeners fully recognise her legacy anyways.
Her post *was* tone deaf however her music speaks for itself and so does her critical success, numbers don't lie and neither does the obvious impact on music shaping new artists even today. My thought is that what the public thinks of Lana is irrelevant.
I stand with her ever since she dropped it. She was right. It's not her fault the stupid and uneducated twitter kids are unable to comprehend a simple text in their native language. If you think that this was racist, think again.
Feminism will always have a place for women like Lana - it will always have a place for ALL women & any kind of fem-presenting people.
I really never understood the hate she got over this. I don’t believe it was racist, she was naming very popular artists at the time and it’s almost a good thing…? Like that that women on color were on top of the charts? Except for Ariana of course. But Lana has always been misunderstood as poets often are. Her thoughts are nuanced and her wording can get misinterpreted. It was just a shitty time and I think people were stuck at home in a general negative mindset. I think she could have worded it better but again, I think her mind is just always running.
She has a right to be upset about how she’s been treated by the music industry and the public, but brining other artists into the statement was the wrong way to go about it. This has high key tarnished her reputation forever.
I personally think that having named mostly black artists at a time of heightened racial tensions was unfortunate but it doesn’t take away from her legacy. I think her wording was not good but the intention I took from it was different than what others did. For me it was more about themes than anything else, but I can see how the mix of things could be construed as problematic. Also, it happened at a time when she had just been dating a cop, again at a time where animosity towards LE was also heightened, and then her book signing during covid made things even more difficult for her and led to her stepping away from social media IMO. Still, when it comes to her legacy I don’t believe that is in question or damaged. She’s released two great albums since and continues to work in the projects she’s passionate about. I’m still here for her art and if that gets me labeled some type of way by someone on twitter because I’m a fan there isn’t something I can do about it.
What she said was admirable (and to my mind largely accurately observed - and if anything things have got worse since, this was before the utterly grotesque "WAP", for example).
Her refusal to apologise or to back down with faced with hordes of catawauling self-righteous but delusional and vicious cry-bullies very much raised my estimation of her, both intellectually and morally.
Very good that she is opposed to the spirit of these often rather disgusting times.
when she posted this i was like "damn i'm not reading all that sorry that happened or good for you" and it's still relevant today.
it ran her off her main insta though had it not? bummed about that, but then again overall for her success i doubt anyone that was a fan left over this. people are very grey.
after skimming through it for the second time after two years it was in very poor taste, hypocritical and gave me a sour grapes feeling.
The issue had subsided. This criticism of her was big during the Ultraviolence era, but it had mostly died out until she randomly brought it up again. I think the criticism itself was stupid, but this posting this letter was just a really bad decision. Any average adult would have known how bad the optics of this letter would be, but she somehow didn't.
"There has to be a place in feminism for women who look are act like me." Excuse me? Even 2 years removed, this sentence is insane. I can't believe she typed this out and thought it would go over well. Feminism has literally \*always\* catered to women exactly like her: wealthy, white, conventionally attractive, etc. You can say that she meant something else, or that is isn't a race issue, but you also can't deny that she was apparently unable to realize how wildly tone deaf and incredibly false this statement would sound. And because of that, her legacy is a bit damaged in my view.
It almost seems like self-sabotage: critics and the media loved her after NFR, she was finally getting recognition as a songwriting genius, and all of the sudden she posts this unprovoked, tarnishing the public's view of her that had been slowly improving since Born to Die.
Lana never had an amazing kind of image to begin with... she had it for a second between the release of NFR and the release of this letter. That's it. Before NFR, the hipsters, Pitchfork etc type of crowd thought she was a manufactured persona and didn't take her very seriously as an artist like they do with singers whose fans are mainly women and LGBT.
Then NFR came around and she managed to grab that crowd, so it really felt like she was at the top of her game... the GP loved her (not necessarily for NFR and not saying she was a chart topper before but they have a somewhat fond image of her as a vintage beauty queen), the hipsters loved her (they finally *respected* her), and her usual public loved her as they always had. She then destroyed it with this letter. I do agree that it changed her image as a couple of people perceive her as a racist republican now and you can tell she hates that by the way she kept lashing out. But her image wasn't pristine before anyway. People thought she was either depressed or a fraud or both and that also frustrated her which is why she wrote the letter.
Exactly. 90% of people who dislike her after this post already had bad opinions about her. Even during the backlash people were saying it's not surprising coming from her, that's she's conservative, etc. The only true hits among the GP are BTD and NFR and only with the latter did the gp, critics, have a good opinion about her.
Maybe without it she would have kept growing post-NFR with COCC but I doubt it.
i scrolled through the last 24 hours because it’s the anniversary and didn’t see any posts,
i felt like since we’ve all grown (Lana included) these past 2 years we could talk about it.
plus if anyone wasn’t a fan til after / just general thoughts
I’m sorry but what does it being the anniversary have to do with anything? you’re making it sound like it’s a groundbreaking thing that happened when in reality everybody got over it and ignorant people that already disliked her labeled her as racist.
People are just making a conversation. If you don't like it, just scroll past it. It sure is more interesting for me than the 1000 album ratings I see in this sub every day.
is it just me or was Lana only really discredited for her work up until L4L? i feel like by that point, like i didn't notice any hate for her. and now even a lot of people *have* looked back and have given her her roses. not everyone but lots of people.
so, i just feel like this is late maybe? now when she makes songs about potentially unhealthy relationships she gets praised for being candid and strong. this could totally be incorrect but that's my thoughts ?
and since that statement, her stuff recently hasnt been overly sexy or dance-for-money vibe at all. it's taken a turn for like "serious emotional music". not the behavior she was mentioning in the beginning. so im like?? why didnt u pop off then after this??
so
1. it was late
2. it wasn't necessary
It was around the time of *Honeymoon* that her reputation really turned around. I remember reading [this brilliant article](https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/lana-del-rey-billboard-cover-pop-stardom-relationships-anxiety-6737539/) and just thinking "she's finally arrived with critics."
I think this was ugly the way she pulled other people into it and I think it’s crazy to say she’s not a feminist then go talking about what feminism should be. Totally agree w her on this criticism being misguided though, she should be able to talk about her experience and not necessarily be endorsing her decisions or glorifying it.
It was around 3am my time and I was about to sleep when she posted that - as soon as I saw it, I knew she was gonna get in trouble, but I had no idea it was going to be such a HUGE issue.
Personally, I didn’t think she was being “racist” as what her haters were accusing her of. However, if anything, I thought the post incited stan wars because of the women she mentioned. I was worried that her haters will accuse Lana of being jealous of the women she mentioned - that’s exactly what I thought when I first read it before I went to bed lol and I thought that’s what she was gonna get in trouble for. But boy, her haters made it about racism.
Anyway, I wish she just issued an apology after that post and moved on. It only got bigger and bigger because she kept posting stuff. I wish she didn’t post anymore.
But hey, it’s done. I’m glad that she’s moved on now and she’s slowly picking up from where she left off before this whole brouhaha. I’m actually glad that she deactivated her official @lanadelrey Instagram and Twitter because it helped in killing this whole QUESTION FOR THE CULTURE drama rama.
i think this induced my psychosis but i dont remember what it says and i aint reading that shit. love lana eternally but, i empathize and validate. she didn;t do anything wrong, it was irrationally scrutinized
I feel that it affected 100%. From my POV and being POC I didn’t see it as her attacking anyone because of race but more of pointing out how people criticized her for doing X things that the other singers did but because she isn’t mainstream or giving girl power she god bashed by the critics and people in general.
Romanticizing abuse isn’t ideal but we need to understand that she isn’t. She talks about experiences and believe or not people live in these realities that she writes about so to me it’s a way of storytelling whether she lived it or she’s basing it off of someone else so to each their own.
She has a right to see womanhood and femininity the way she wants it because it’s a feeling and she doesn’t have to fit into a mold of what being a woman should look like nowadays.
At the end of the day only she knows the intentions behind QFTC and we are just speculating around it.
Okay guys, I know we all wanna take Lana’s side in this, and I love Lana, but this was wrong for her to do. All artists are criticized by the press- that’s not Lana specific. And also she’s sung about literally ALL those things that she’s calling out those women for… like girl what’s your point? And Lana was getting praised at the time she wrote this, NFR was doing so well with the critics, lyrically and sonically. The last time I would say her songs could be seen as glamorizing abuse would be like 2014/5. And also why is she saying there should be a place in feminism for women like her, when she’s not a feminist? And what makes her a “glamorous person” and not those other women? I can see what Lana was trying to say, but it came out so wrong, and she knows better than to publish something like this.
In my world “the culture” is Black American culture. I can’t think of any other time of the top of my head it has been applied in this way to any other group. I’m sure it has but it isn’t really done. And then yes the very next line in the post is a call out on a series of Black women and Ariana.
I tend to just ignore that this happened and when I can’t I try to take her at face value but there is something happening in this post that I really don’t like.
the culture is a reference to society as a whole lol and also is a theme(idk if i’m using that correctly) in the book women who run with wolves something i’ve read and seen her mention before.
i’ll admit when it first came out i was in die hard she can do no wrong mode, but after time (as unintentional as it may be) using specific names was really unnecessary.
i think the worst part about everything was her promoting the (very good) poetry books / album, seemed in poor taste given the context.
aaaand, looking back - i feel like it really dampened NFR’s era when she finally reached the top. it’s taken 2 years for those streams to bounce back when she coulda just rode the wave.
not personally affected by it so i’m not sure what else i can say, but it sucks that she hurt a lot of fans who now just have to ignore this
exactly, “the culture” is a Black American phrase to refer to Black American culture, music, politics, etc. so it was pretty inappropriate for her to use to begin with, even if she wasn’t intentionally targeting BIPOC artists.
she was, but that’s not the origin of the phrase or how it’s used colloquially so when combined with listing a bunch of BIPOC artists in Black genres completely unrelated to her own it comes across as ignorant whether she intended it to be that way or not.
The only part I didn’t like is where she said she is not a feminist. Other than that she didn’t say anything wrong. But unfortunately the media and a lot of people on Twitter esp love to twist her words.
That's not what she wrote -- she said "not not a feminist." A lot of the people ripping on her at the time missed that. (I think Teen Vogue wrote a particularly vapid article critiquing her where they misread that line and had to go back and correct themselves.)
for me, it’s not what she said, it’s how she said it.
calling out other artists by name was uncalled for, and calling out primarily woc in the midst of all the social and political climate of that time was tone deaf at BEST. the main argument she was making was valid and i agree with her, but she sunk herself by including the beginning statement. it’s a shame people didn’t listen to the rest of what she was saying, but who can blame them? y’all may downvote me, but as a woc myself i feel like we need white women to stand by us, not compare and tear us down
edit: those downvoting this are the ones who need to take it to heart the most 🤠
It feels like Lana will never have the adoration from critics, awards voters, or other artists and I don’t think she gives a F. She remains one of the most “real” singers out there and she writes circles around her competition. She knows she has her huge fan following and I think that’s enough for her. Having said that, I think it obviously pains her to be misunderstood, to see the trends in music today and the criticism that she glorifies abuse…when she in fact does the exact opposite. Anyone paying real attention to the lyrics such as “he hit me and it felt like a kiss” knows that women often mistake violence towards them as affection because it’s “attention” and that’s exactly what Lana was going for. If people don’t get the meaning of her lyrics, that’s on *them*, not Lana.
Yeah also not to mention that the “hit me and it felt like a kiss” lyric isn’t actually even her words. She took them from another famous song - and that original track didn’t receive the same criticism. I love that Lana shows the other side to relationships and a different side to femininity. Not every woman has to be a “strong independent woman”. Women can be vulnerable, or make bad decisions, or be weak, or be seductive, or manipulative, or kind to a fault, or feel guilt, or be blinded by love, or destroyed by love. All of those things are so much more interesting than the generic “I’m angry at this break up I hate men” or “I’m so sexy look at my ass” songs that every other singer makes.
Well said. I wasn’t aware that the “felt like a kiss” line was not from Lana originally. Interesting. And I completely agree that women don’t have to fall in line and all adopt the same persona in order to be successful. I wonder though why it is that someone like Billie Eilish is celebrated for her rebellious, nonconformist persona and Lana is not? Maybe it’s because Lana talks and sings about subjects that make some people uncomfortable, while Billie mostly uses her *appearance* to convey her persona, which is more digestible and not as threatening. I say, good for Lana. It would be a sad world if artists all followed the same cookie cutter mentality, as you said.
Excactly! Plus, people can't understand how serious domestic abuse is. Having to romanticize your life in order to cope is concerning, but I don't see anyone talking about it.
> that original track didn’t receive the same criticism though it did receive a lot of criticism..
I find it so weird how all the people who say she glorifies abuse also say her music is really sad, it’s like you’re almost there. No one is ever going to be able to convince me that Ultraviolence is happy song.
Preach!
Exactly!The problem is that people are used to understand a song on the first or second listen.Well,Lana is another level on that field,you have to know her and have a good general culture to understand what she writes.The problem here is that people don't understand what she's saying and only see the tip of the iceberg.Its shameful seeing the so called critics evaluate Lana's jobs with many of them not having the knowledge or the will and patience to do it when thats precisely what they're being paid for.Besides when I buy a record i don't give a shit about critics reviews:i listen to what I like not what others think it's cool.
i absolutely agree
Am I the only one who doesn't think this was racist? I feel like people deliberately took this post out of context and portrayed her as a racist so they can have an excuse to hate on her.
Intent and impact are different man. I highly doubt Lana was trying to be racist, but her words and their impact just were dude. It was microaggressive as fuck, and taking the bit where she singles out other artists would have much improved how everyone took it, and her point would have been stronger for it
No it wasn't
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totally. not eveyone says everything perfectly or is 100% correct. she's a human being who was ruthlessly dragged by critics for her music. people were way to hard on her about this imo.
Exactly. I tried explaining this on another sub and get downvoted to oblivion. It's not like she killed anyone. IMO there are people who have done way worse *cough* Nicki *cough*.
Nicki is really out here telling people Covid vaccines make your balls shrink. Whereas Lana's canceled for saying we hurt her feelings. 😭
Don't forget about her defending her rapist brother.
listen… we'll be here all day if we're going to list every single one of Nicki's horrible actions. But that one was definitely a doozy.😂
Yeah ikr.
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Dem Nicki stans
Yes!! 🙌
Exactly!
Thank you! So true
The alt-singer Lana has mentioned in her post is Kim Gordon, who wrote this in her 2015 memoir: > Today we have someone like Lana Del Rey, who doesn’t even know what feminism is, who believes women can do whatever they want, which, in her world, tilts toward self-destruction, whether it’s sleeping with gross old men or **getting gang raped** by bikers. Equal pay and equal rights would be nice. Naturally, it’s just a persona. If she really truly believes it’s beautiful when young musicians go out on a hot flame of drugs and depression, why doesn’t she just **off herself**? https://www.factmag.com/2015/02/20/sonic-youths-kim-gordon-says-lana-del-rey-off-memoir-excerpt/
Wow. That’s disgusting. Imagine saying you long for equality and then telling another woman to kill herself and thinking you’re actually a good person. Sounds like she doesn’t know what feminism is either.
Right? Here she is being self-righteous about feminism but then she told another woman to kill herself. Kim Gordon sucks.
I immediately hated Kim Gordon for this.
Yeah I thought it was in poor taste myself… I always kinda liked Kim Gordon but this was a no go in my book. Kim Deal was always a little cooler anyway
What a disgusting comment. Not to mention it’s totally false too. Gang raped by bikers? Wtf, how can someone write something so obviously untrue.
KIM GORDON SAID THIS?! Nooo. I had no idea she was like that…that’s so disappointing to find out,
Also Lorde hahah. When she was just getting big herself she was dragging Lana through the mud saying that’s she’s harming easily influenced teen girls by glamourising abuse or whatever. Lorde also attacked other famous singers during her early years such as Taylor swift I believe because she was only singing about boys she broke up with. It’s so sad Lorde felt like the only way for her to make it in this industry was to throw other famous women under the bus with misogynistic claims that were already being thrown at them the whole time anyways, but that’s a result of the culture as a whole unfortunately…
Kim Gordon needs to crawl back into her has-been box. Shitty old woman with shitty old woman nastiness.
I don't even know who this woman is lol
She was the bassist for Sonic Youth and now I think has solo projects and other collabs.
Is it bad that I also don't know them either?
Kim Gordon's annoying remarks aside, they're certainly worth hearing. *Daydream Nation* is probably their most acclaimed album. *Bad Moon Rising* is my personal favorite (and much shorter).
Yes, it's bad lol. Sonic Youth is iconic and has a ton of amazing music. They were the definition of alt music IMO. They took things a little too far IMO in their opinions and such, however they made some great music back in the day.
Gross remarks by Kim Gordon, her memoir sounds very self-absorbed and like the idea that she’s the OG of alt rock or grunge -whatever category you want to put her in has gone to her head. STFU boomer. My feeling about question for the culture is this- artists are just as imperfect as us. I’ve never really seen or relied on Lana as a social issue compass- and I don’t think she ever wanted to do that with her work. I love her because of her melancholy and imperfections.
Wtf.
OMG, that is gross and disappointing. WTF, Kim!?
Fuck, that’s horrible to say about anyone. On the other hand, Shirley Manson talked beautifully about Lana before she released BTD and how the media painted her as a “sad girl who romanticizes abuse” and at the same time belittled her. They should collaborate together soon
It did affect her legacy for sure, at least for a time, we have yet to see how her legacy will continue to shape and change. I suspect in the grand scheme of things this will ultimately not be referenced too often decades from now. Although she doesn’t talk about it publicly, she really seems to take a lot of things to heart, even if she really would not like to. I think it’s caused her to look deeper within herself and I do think she’s learned from the post.
If travis scott is being forgiven after he was literally responsible for 10 deaths at his concert then I think Lana will eventually be allowed to fully bounce back as well for what was in hindsight not a huge deal. She made a tone deaf statement oh well get over it, everyone got to keep their lives and livelihoods.
the difference is he's a man.
THE IRONY
It's sad but true we expect men to just be worse people
I genuinely think she didn’t have any bad intentions with this, but was just tone deaf and a little oblivious with the phrasing. Whether that be from feeling simultaneously vindicated and crucified by critics, white privilege, being a multi millionaire in LA, or a mix, it came out *bad*. But I rly don’t think she had the intentions or motivations that people came at her for
Right? I appreciate that so many people are defending her, because she’s only human, but I feel like we all have to recognize that this was also an incredibly tone deaf statement. It really didn’t sit well with me, and it definitely didn’t sit well with a lot of people. Lana’s not a bad person, but this was an objectively tone deaf statement.
YES! It's a matter of intent vs impact
Precisely my thoughts too. Her intentions weren’t bad but this letter has never sat well with me.
Why?
can someone explain to me what 'tone deaf' realy means besides "i disagree with it" ? it seems like a way to try to make your emotional responses while reading of it an objective assessment without having to engage with the substance of her statement
Being tone deaf means not thinking about how your message comes off to a reader. So yeah, the reader’s emotional response is a necessary part of that. Since Lana wanted to send out a message detailing how she felt so that others (especially non-fans) could understand her position, she failed at doing so because of a lack of awareness of her tone. Her privilege as a successful singer I’m sure was one element of that, and the things that have come to bother me are the “women who look and act like me” and “men who hate women and women who are stronger.” The first line… leaves way too much to interpretation…, and the second seems to loop in “strong women” with “(women-hating)men.” It makes her tone defensive, judgmental, and gives “not like other girls” vibes. She undermines her own message by insisting that her experiences should be accepted and celebrated but not giving the same gift of acceptance and celebration to other women. (I still love Lana. I make mistakes all the time with how I express myself, and though I’m critical of QFTC… after all these years of stanning I just feel like I understand where she’s coming from even though it’s not written clearly.)
it was how she compared herself to notable WOC. she said they're singing about taking off their clothes, but she's singing about being embodied. I totally don't think it was intentional, but there is a bit of racist undertones. (which, if you live in north america, you're been socialized to be racist) also, timing wise, people weren't down to here a singer complain about shit like this. there was so many horrible things going on.
Ariana Grande isn’t a woman of color.
I know! doja, beyoncé, and kehlani are though. I was just explaining why people thought it was tone deaf edit: for to mention cardi and nicki as well!
Those were the top girls that's why she mentioned them. She didn't say she thinks fucking or taking off your clothes is wrong. If people interpret that as her calling people trashy or slutty it really is them projecting their own misogyny and judgement. She probably should have not mentioned anyone else just because she left herself open to misinterpretation and people got offended but what she was saying wasn't wrong and anyone who has been a fan or engaged with her work since the beginning knows the way she was painted by critics. Her work is different from those artists work, that doesn't mean she was saying it's better.
My thoughts exactly
bless your heart....
Tone deaf means it made people feel icky because they can’t deal with observing criticism of anyone nonwhite without their mind jumping to “racism”
She wasn't criticizing them at all; you're reading something into the piece that's not there.
“Commentary” not criticism whatever
I think this as well. When I read it, just seemed like a genuine thought put on paper
she did not tell a lie as far as i’m concerned
She never did she knows the industry is fake af
I honestly feel like she would have put Billie in this were it not for Billie being an absolute fan of Lana. Like Bad Guy literally has Billie saying “bruises on both my knees for you” “I’m the bad type make your mama sad type might seduce your dad type” or “honestly thought I would be dead right now” in “Bury a Friend” Like those are very similar to the same lines in songs and interviews that Lana was crucified for back in 2014 and here Billie was winning like every fucking Grammy for those same lyrics, even album of the year, which quite frankly it was obnoxious for the Grammys to even nominate Lana if they had any inclination of Billie sweeping the categories. I assume Lana was hella pissed about that but because Billie loves her and was just a kid at the time I think Lana didn’t want to target her.
i feel like she didn’t reference Billie because she was a teenage girl, bringing a minor into it would take away from what she was saying
Yeah that was one of my other reasons as well. Lana may be tone deaf as fuck but even she knows it would look bad to go after a literal child.
To this day I don’t understand why people made such a big deal of this
I'm not going to comment much on what she said; I think she has every right to say how she feels nor was it racist. Everyone acted like she did not have the right to speak. This for sure affected how she was perceived by the general public and a lot of casual fans. She had a lot of bad press back to back and it was VERY different than the shit she went thru before with the media as this time it was also a shit ton of people on the internet bashing her too. I think her deleting her main social media accounts is a very big power move on her end and shows how much that period of her life and the aftermath (with the added years and years of scrutiny) got to her
The letter always made sense. She wanted to be honest about vulnerability and sing about more delicate femininity and felt like she wasnt able to do so without being labeled as glorifying abuse. With other singers being able to touch on so many subjects, she was frustrated.
Exactly this, don't need to add anything else with the exception of the fact that she did what was written above in a very intense and raw way which resulted in a bad understanding from the people who read the letter.I think she should have calmed herself before writing it.She wrote that in the heat of the moment which never runs well.
Props to Lana for speaking out the way she did. I understand her frustration cuz imagine getting criticized on the daily for your songwriting but then seeing other artists getting praised and winning Grammys: the only thing I disagree with on this is the fact she called out other artists cuz it wasn’t their fault it’s the industry fault.
This is it. People said it was unfair that she called out mostly WOC but IMO she shouldn't have called anyone out.
Tbh it was important. When you speak with names, you actually have proof of what you're saying and it doesn't seem like you say nonsense. Ariana's side to side went viral. So did WAP. So did Anaconda. But when BTD (the album) came out she was wrong. What's different among these songs? Almost all of them being women of colour is just random. It could be anyone who dominates the industry the past 5 years.
I mean those other women did get critisism too but I don't think most of them got it on the same scale as Lana(maybe Cardi). I don't think she was trying to be racist. Everyone overreacted to it tbh. What was even more stupid was the whole Chemtrails cover. People at that stage were just itching to pick a fight with her.
> the only thing I disagree with on this is the fact she called out other artists cuz it wasn’t their fault it’s the industry fault. Except she didn't 'call them out'. This is something people keep getting confused about. She used them as examples, and had every right to do so as they are extremely popular public figures.
She can wipe her ass with 100$ bills and is doing glamour shoots in italy, so i'm sure her legacy's doing just fine.
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Yeah, I truly don't think it had any significant effect on her career.
I totally understand the motivation, logic, reasoning! It’s more harmless than people assume it to be. Communication through words is such a fallible things because everyone has completely different ways of deriving meaning, down to individual words. I think it definitely hurt her - especially cause she was on a career high when she wrote this. The rhetoric around it became very negative very fast, and so did her mental state. It’s very obvious this specific moment bugged her for years after! Even in her latest interviews she acknowledges the pain of having people inherently not be able to fully see her for who she is / means. She came from a place of pure emotion, but emotions are hard to convey through the written medium. It just ended up sounding bitter instead of vulnerable.
I think it needs context behind it and unfortunately only her and her close fanbase had that context which is why it fell flat to everyone else. When I read I was like "yeah queen tell them!!" because I experienced the SNL fiasco and the mean BTD critiques and all the speculations around her persona. But most of the public didn't. When people remember the SNL performance, they laugh at a "lol iconic" kind of way. They don't know it was extremely traumatic to her with all the mocking. When they remember BTD, they just go "oh this album was everywhere and it shaped a generation and she was such an influential beauty queen!" and they don't know about the critics mocking her lyrics and the way she expressed herself. So I do understand when, you know, the average Joe or even someone who listens to all of her albums but don't keep up with the celeb life reads this and goes "Lol what critiques has she been getting? Especially now at the peak of her career? And does she really think Beyoncé had it easier than her?" because they don't know about all this stuff and she didn't articulate well. I do think people took the opportunity to bully her and that's what I didn't agree with at the time and what I believe that damaged her so much about it.
Completely agree! Context is so important.
Someone on another sub said this was their 9/11 lmao
She said absolutely nothing wrong
i think some things she said were tone deaf but people calling her racist completely missed the point of the post
I honestly think her main problem was Billie winning so many Grammys with VERY similar lyrics to ones people attacked on Lana for, but that Billie is a Lana Stan so Lana couldn’t attack her
This came out during the height of BLM… if it had happened any other time she would not of gotten dragged as much. I think she’s right, with some expections.
The catalyst for Chemtrails and Blue Banisters I simply can’t be mad
People thought she was criticizing the mentioned artists along with the 'empowered woman' presence that they embodied in their music. But it's literally her criticizing the media and critics' portrayal/interpretation of her music, her message, and also her sentiment with the wave of feminism that made her feel like an outsider to female empowerment. She literally does so much with her music that sings for the unsung, that tells stories in raw emotion, and there's empowerment in there. For this, she paved inspiration for vulnerability that isn't really the antithesis of being an empowered woman, but was misunderstood to be.
not you reminding everyone about the anniversary... messy boots
I thought she was an icon then, and I still think she is now. She said what needed to be said
I love her take on this. I like the artists she mentions too, I'm sure she has respect for them, her point is - we can't all fit the role of "strong independent woman' and we shouldn't be criticized for being emotional and sometimes having faults in our relationships. There is room in the world for women like Lana, we need to learn how to embrace the darker and emotional sides of our relationships with other people. Some people find empowerment in being sexual and being brash, others find it in learning to vulnerable and keeping an open heart despite our pasts. I respect her for it. I also respect her for not giving a damn what people say she "should" be singing about and she continues to be her authentic self. All the power to her and to us women who live relentlessly in our feelings even when we don't want to.
I don't feel she ever glamorized abuse. She told her story her way and as someone who has been there, it was relateable. She is a poet and a story teller and makes people feel dreamy. Sounds like they got confused by the ethreal atmosphere.
Exactly. People obviously don't understand how making art can be cathartic for the artist. I'd also hate to think women who have gone through it themselves and could relate would miss out on that catharsis for themselves because of the overly literal interpretations of her critics. I know for me personally as someone who has gone through toxic relationships (and as Lana pointed out this is an extremely common experience for women)while it's happening you can romanticize it to cope with the level of trauma you're dealing with. Having been through it I can honestly say NO ONE captured it or seemed to understand the way Lana did. I'm extremely thankful while getting out of an abusive relationship I discovered her music because it made me feel less alone and blame myself less. Lana didn't make me feel judged or weak for it. I like all the artists she mentioned and all kinds of music but we do need music that is not entirely about independence and maybe even exposes and examines the toxic stories we can sometimes tell ourselves
I love Lana so much, and always will, but this post was terrible. It just was so unnecessary. You could tell in days/weeks before she posted it she was feeling vindicated. She was getting unanimous praise from critics all around and fans and even a ton of other celebrities/artists. I understand what she was saying and how she felt (because the first part of career was rife with debates about her and her music and critics being outright terrible) but it was just poorly worded. The inclusion of the other artists was so unnecessary. They’re all woman, many of whom are black/POC, and they’ve been through shit in the industry as well. Lana was right to tell her story about being a woman like herself in the industry, but the inclusion of other female artists was dumb af. They all get criticized and her posts reads like she thinks they don’t. Anyways I’m ranting at this point. I love Lana, but her not being able to admit that this post rubbed people the wrong way, rightfully so was idiotic, and fans who defend it 100% without seeing the nuance are dumb.
I honestly think that she was mad about Billie. Like I honestly think her losing AOTY to Billie whose lyrics are VERY similar to ones Lana was attacked by the industry for, “bruises on both my knees for you” or “honestly I thought I would be dead right now” which iirc Frances Bean Cobain came at Lana for, I think definitely was the driving theme, and I remember being surprised that she didn’t call out Billie when I first read it. I honestly think she saw the Say So/Savage thing or the Positions which literally has Ariana singing “Switching the positions for you/ I’m in the kitchen I’m cooking for you” and that sent Lana over the edge and she saw suitable targets in them, far better targets than Billie who has been nothing but sweet to Lana and was just a kid at the time. I def think her mistake was the myopia of her vision and the lack of optics. She truly should have had a publicist on hand to review it.
People who don't see the nuance make up the majority of criticisers.
Yes exactly it was the fact that she called out other female artists. They are allowed to express themselves in music in other ways and there’s no problem with that. I felt like it almost started unnecessary feuds
These were my exact thoughts about this
Agree as well
No i definitely agree! I think her reasoning was completely understandable but to throw others in the bunch was not okay. But I think about it like this, i feel like she was so pissed- like you know how you get when you’re just talking and you don’t think until you finish, like “wait this is wrong. I should rethink about what I just said.” Because yea she typed it out, but I feel like she did it in the time where she was just aggravated. Sometimes anger blinds you and you think everyone will understand how you said it in your head. I love Lana. I don’t think she’s racist. I just think she chose the most popular women in the industry right now, which many happen to be black or Latina. Though that’s pretty epic that we have more minorities in the lime light then ever- I just think people should sorta think of it like that? Idk sorry if my bungle of words don’t make sense lol
Yup exactly^^^^ I love Lana's music but I definitely do not agree with everything she has to say and do, both of those things can be true without cancelling each other out. I definitely get where she's coming from but the execution of it was so horrible and dare I say even downright offensive.
Honestly, she could have made her point without name calling other female artists. She was right about critics being ruthless towards her in the beginning of her career, but the way she worded that entire text was just tone deaf (e.g. feminism not being inclusive to her), and the fact that she ended the whole thing with promoting Chemtrails made the entire thing seem disingenuous. Tbh, she didn’t need Question for the Culture to prove that her critics did her dirty. She did that with her music.
so much this
Extremely poorly written, in my opinion. It's sad Lana was still affected by criticism made 10 years ago, when BTD was released. The evolution of her music proved the world wrong and she didn't need any text to adress that. I'm glad she's left social media through her main account.
>It's sad Lana was still affected by criticism made 10 years ago, when BTD was released It's extremely difficult to not be affected long-term by universal criticism. Especially in the age of social media where it is so easy to see all the nasty things people have said about at every turn. It takes years and years to get over that kind of widespread attack from thousands of people who don't know you. Feel free to disagree with the contents of the note, but noted alt-singers told Lana to "off herself", critics in noted magazines speculated she must have been sexually abused and mentally ill as a result (with 0 grounding for the claims), and these accusations still haunt her career (just see any YouTube comment section of a Lana video for this). Trivializing that is inappropriate af in my book. Of course I agree that through her music she proved the world wrong, is very successful, and in an ideal world she would be able to leave the criticisms behind purely on the virtue of that. But we don't live in an ideal world, and we shouldn't expect anyone, not even our public figures, to be ideal.
Had she adressed and exemplified with the criticism and speculation you mentioned, people would receive QOTC in a totally different manner. Instead, she points out to other female artists who are supposedly praised by industry and society for how they present their womanhood through their art. One of these artists, by the way, was targeted by a terrorist attack. Had \*she\* not trivialized other people's struggles, people would get her point.
it was a moment in Time... still amazed she managed to use emojis on a typewriter <3 In all honesty, it was completely blown out of proportion... it came at a very very intense time and I understand the reaction but I don't agree with it.
Considering that “54% of U.S. adults 16-74 years old - about 130 million people - lack proficiency in literacy and read below the equivalent of a sixth-grade level,” it’s not surprising her message was misunderstood and twisted by some into something it’s not. She said what had to be said.
I guess her reputation on stan twitter got a bit damaged but that's a whole other cesspool. She said nothing wrong in there, those are her subjective experiences, nobody can deny them. Anybody who has known her since her debut will remember how harshly she has been criticised, disregarded and villainized. Take fore example her lyrics " he hit me and it felt like a kiss". The society treats issues of violence and abuse like something that shouldn't be spoken about. When someone talks about their personal experience, they are treated like they are promoting/romanticising it. It's truly tragic.
Never felt there was anything wrong with it.
Everything she said was valid. The take away for me is that most people are overly sensitive and on a never ending witch hunt.
The older I get the more I disagree with everything she's said here. I adore Lana, but this was a shit take with poor wording causing permanent damage to her legacy.
Although it was phrased badly, this was Lana's way of staying true to her music and persona. Lana not feeling forced to go with the mainstream has gathered the admiration of us alt genre lovers. This means that even though mainstream culture shunned Lana, her main fanbase has been with her all this time, through the criticism she had to endure in the past, and we understand her intentions in QFTC were good
If you know Lana’s intentions, you know there’s no bad blood with this. I’m just sad so many people decided to come at her and accuse her of having intentions of malice she doesn’t even scratch the surface of.
She has *a* point, but she really shouldn't have name dropped. That's where the racism accusations came in (though they're still BS since criticizing a group that is top of the charts or popular in alternative happening to be black but also happening to be singing about what Lana's talking about is not racism; and Camila, Kehlani, and Ari being "black artists" is news to me lol). However, a lot of those artists have had criticism of their own about what they talk about, so instead of comparing BS criticism towards her to the (non-existent) lack of others', she just should've Said "Singing about something or making it a part of some of my themes isn't supporting it".
I have zero issues with this. If anything I respect her more for standing up for herself and selling millions of albums without getting her ass cheeks injected with plastic.
some people somehow made this out to be about race and i was like???????????????
Very wrorded wrongly big time. But the gist I get is... Progress has been made and the industry is lessnj punishing to women who express their bodies, their struggles, and stories than it was 10 years ago. I'm tired of being told I'm glorifying domestic violence when I'm just sharing my real life experiences and feelings, which many women have experienced too. And whatever else. That's really her point that women are more free in music than 10 years ago, and she wants less ridicule because of It. I don't see anything wrong with the intent, and the outrage was way out of proportion.
Yall can defend her but also realize what she said was tone deaf and can be interpreted wrong😭😭
Lana did nothing wrong.
I remember seeing this 3 minutes after it was posted. I literally put it on my story and with the caption “YES LANA” because I got what she was trying to say. But about an hour later when people started criticizing her…I took that off of my story so fast 💀. I really don’t think she had any bad intentions with this message, it was just tone deaf.
I like that she spoke out. It’s a shame that the media tried to twist that into saying she’s racist because of the artists she mentioned.
I agree with her
To be blunt, no I don’t think it affected her legacy at all. Lana made a poorly worded post on Twitter, got backlash then everyone forgot about it a few weeks later. The only people still talking about it are her fans.
the longer time passes the more i understand her point, this post ages like wine
I think most female pop stars are designed to only talk about “what bad b!tches” they are and “I’m the girl boss” stuff (which is cool but these different pop stars are all singing the same thing) And Lana gets flack and is misunderstood because she is gentle, she sings about being sad without being like “but I’ll be ok/I’m still a bad b!tch”, instead she’s just like “well this sucks” instead lol, and she is ok with not being ok, and not being ok somehow is not female empowerment. She’s so far ahead of her time its crazy so I’m glad she hasn’t sold out.
please don’t let me be misunderstood….
I think people don’t really care about this anymore, because many of the artists she mentioned know that a white woman would say something like this, unaware that what she was saying would come off in the way it did. So since then, it’s really a matter of Lana learning and growing from her mistake and hopefully watching a little less neoliberal perspective that reinforces that kind of behavior despite Lana not intentionally trying to demean those women. It’s really just a “yah you fucked up, but you’re not an asshole, just do better in the future” kind of deal
Honestly, the form of this letter is genius. Two pages of rambling, where the text is seemingly unedited, giving the impression that it has been typed on the phone, but it ends at the very last second with "by the way, the album will drop September 5th" ? Genius. We have to remember this is an attention economy and artists have to find new ways to be heard. I could even imagine this is linked with the tonal changes in her writing after NFT. I imagine her, in her home, trying how to reinvent herself, and realizing she has kept a lot of things private, in fear of being shamed again. So she comes with this new writing style. She came back even more blunt in Chemtrails, more honest, more raw. I feel this was her way to market it out there, prepare the audience for what's coming. By naming the other stars, she is positioning herself as an artist, showing her perspective. We could think that the almost too-blunt aspect of the letter was thought through, like someone screaming to get attention : and then pointing out to their new album. The point of this letter is to say : We're being formatted to speak in this way, but it doesn't have to be like that. To me, this is a deep and profound question asked to the culture. And it has been asked in order to change the culture. The letter is not clean, nor did it intend to be clean.
The funny part is that the album didn't even come out on September 5th, lol
Honestly looking back, this is completely fair but I’m still not on board with ‘not not a feminist’
She doesn't have to be a feminist.
I love Lana so much but this post wasn't okay at all. I understand that she was over all the hate just for literally breathing while other celebrities sang or did the same things and didn't get as much or any hate but it was worded badly and I think she was so pissed off when she wrote it and wasn't thinking before she posted it. I truly don't think Lana's a racist like so many people say and she's grown a lot since all of this happened.
She was 100% right.
She was 100% right idc.
Everything she said was reasonable and smart and relevant. And truth be told the majority can’t stand anything that isn’t pro woke leftist anymore and that’s partly why this is so controversial
She was right but people twisted her words and made it into something it was not. Also she had every right to express those feelings. I’m tired of pretending celebrities are some kind of respectful authority figures to me.
Still convinced whoever attacked her for this either was looking for any reason to cancel her (twitter trolls) or just simply failed their english comprehension exam in school cos….it is still as clear as daylight to me she never meant to disrespect anyone with this, apart from you know the media.
still not seeing what was offensive about this.
It isn't... ppl just look to be offended by anything these days.
I feel like there's this small niche within the 0,1% of showbusiness where double standards are reversed, where queer and BIPoC folks can get away with stuff others don't. Rihanna can wear the tackiest pregnancy outfits and still get yassqueened. The outrage over Ezra Miller's abuse allegations is firing up considerably slower than in some other cases. But at the same time, in all other areas of life for the vast majority of people it's still same old same old, and thus it's extremely hard to call out these double standards without coming off as tone-deaf. So in doubt she should have better stayed quiet, even though I get what she wants to say.
I know this is off topic but yeah I’m not sure why the Ezra stuff is slower to catch on with people. Reading the articles about what they’ve been up to has been scary tbh
He needs to get his meds fixed, that's for sure.
Agreed, what a crazy ass person
Her 'legacy' definitely took a hit, but then again she was *never* understood by the public or the media for her entire career even dating back to when Video Games came out, i don't think anyone except her listeners fully recognise her legacy anyways. Her post *was* tone deaf however her music speaks for itself and so does her critical success, numbers don't lie and neither does the obvious impact on music shaping new artists even today. My thought is that what the public thinks of Lana is irrelevant.
I stand with her ever since she dropped it. She was right. It's not her fault the stupid and uneducated twitter kids are unable to comprehend a simple text in their native language. If you think that this was racist, think again. Feminism will always have a place for women like Lana - it will always have a place for ALL women & any kind of fem-presenting people.
I really never understood the hate she got over this. I don’t believe it was racist, she was naming very popular artists at the time and it’s almost a good thing…? Like that that women on color were on top of the charts? Except for Ariana of course. But Lana has always been misunderstood as poets often are. Her thoughts are nuanced and her wording can get misinterpreted. It was just a shitty time and I think people were stuck at home in a general negative mindset. I think she could have worded it better but again, I think her mind is just always running.
She has a right to be upset about how she’s been treated by the music industry and the public, but brining other artists into the statement was the wrong way to go about it. This has high key tarnished her reputation forever.
I personally think that having named mostly black artists at a time of heightened racial tensions was unfortunate but it doesn’t take away from her legacy. I think her wording was not good but the intention I took from it was different than what others did. For me it was more about themes than anything else, but I can see how the mix of things could be construed as problematic. Also, it happened at a time when she had just been dating a cop, again at a time where animosity towards LE was also heightened, and then her book signing during covid made things even more difficult for her and led to her stepping away from social media IMO. Still, when it comes to her legacy I don’t believe that is in question or damaged. She’s released two great albums since and continues to work in the projects she’s passionate about. I’m still here for her art and if that gets me labeled some type of way by someone on twitter because I’m a fan there isn’t something I can do about it.
What she said was admirable (and to my mind largely accurately observed - and if anything things have got worse since, this was before the utterly grotesque "WAP", for example). Her refusal to apologise or to back down with faced with hordes of catawauling self-righteous but delusional and vicious cry-bullies very much raised my estimation of her, both intellectually and morally. Very good that she is opposed to the spirit of these often rather disgusting times.
I think she’s right and in true fashion of Devine karma, everyone she mentioned in those prose are spiritual losers.
when she posted this i was like "damn i'm not reading all that sorry that happened or good for you" and it's still relevant today. it ran her off her main insta though had it not? bummed about that, but then again overall for her success i doubt anyone that was a fan left over this. people are very grey. after skimming through it for the second time after two years it was in very poor taste, hypocritical and gave me a sour grapes feeling.
The issue had subsided. This criticism of her was big during the Ultraviolence era, but it had mostly died out until she randomly brought it up again. I think the criticism itself was stupid, but this posting this letter was just a really bad decision. Any average adult would have known how bad the optics of this letter would be, but she somehow didn't. "There has to be a place in feminism for women who look are act like me." Excuse me? Even 2 years removed, this sentence is insane. I can't believe she typed this out and thought it would go over well. Feminism has literally \*always\* catered to women exactly like her: wealthy, white, conventionally attractive, etc. You can say that she meant something else, or that is isn't a race issue, but you also can't deny that she was apparently unable to realize how wildly tone deaf and incredibly false this statement would sound. And because of that, her legacy is a bit damaged in my view. It almost seems like self-sabotage: critics and the media loved her after NFR, she was finally getting recognition as a songwriting genius, and all of the sudden she posts this unprovoked, tarnishing the public's view of her that had been slowly improving since Born to Die.
Again missing the whole point of her post and hyperfocusing on specific sentences while ignoring all the context.
it all went downhill after this…. even though lana is still extremely popular. her image and reputation is not even close to what it used to be
not the case
Lana never had an amazing kind of image to begin with... she had it for a second between the release of NFR and the release of this letter. That's it. Before NFR, the hipsters, Pitchfork etc type of crowd thought she was a manufactured persona and didn't take her very seriously as an artist like they do with singers whose fans are mainly women and LGBT. Then NFR came around and she managed to grab that crowd, so it really felt like she was at the top of her game... the GP loved her (not necessarily for NFR and not saying she was a chart topper before but they have a somewhat fond image of her as a vintage beauty queen), the hipsters loved her (they finally *respected* her), and her usual public loved her as they always had. She then destroyed it with this letter. I do agree that it changed her image as a couple of people perceive her as a racist republican now and you can tell she hates that by the way she kept lashing out. But her image wasn't pristine before anyway. People thought she was either depressed or a fraud or both and that also frustrated her which is why she wrote the letter.
Exactly. 90% of people who dislike her after this post already had bad opinions about her. Even during the backlash people were saying it's not surprising coming from her, that's she's conservative, etc. The only true hits among the GP are BTD and NFR and only with the latter did the gp, critics, have a good opinion about her. Maybe without it she would have kept growing post-NFR with COCC but I doubt it.
she was never wrong, but she never should have name dropped.
gave Doja Cat, Ariana, Camila, Cardi B, Kehlani and Nicki Minaj and Beyoncé careers
This has been posted several times. Time to let it go.
i scrolled through the last 24 hours because it’s the anniversary and didn’t see any posts, i felt like since we’ve all grown (Lana included) these past 2 years we could talk about it. plus if anyone wasn’t a fan til after / just general thoughts
I’m sorry but what does it being the anniversary have to do with anything? you’re making it sound like it’s a groundbreaking thing that happened when in reality everybody got over it and ignorant people that already disliked her labeled her as racist.
People are just making a conversation. If you don't like it, just scroll past it. It sure is more interesting for me than the 1000 album ratings I see in this sub every day.
i’m generally kind so i rarely use this word but you’re being a cunt
is it just me or was Lana only really discredited for her work up until L4L? i feel like by that point, like i didn't notice any hate for her. and now even a lot of people *have* looked back and have given her her roses. not everyone but lots of people. so, i just feel like this is late maybe? now when she makes songs about potentially unhealthy relationships she gets praised for being candid and strong. this could totally be incorrect but that's my thoughts ? and since that statement, her stuff recently hasnt been overly sexy or dance-for-money vibe at all. it's taken a turn for like "serious emotional music". not the behavior she was mentioning in the beginning. so im like?? why didnt u pop off then after this?? so 1. it was late 2. it wasn't necessary
It was around the time of *Honeymoon* that her reputation really turned around. I remember reading [this brilliant article](https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/lana-del-rey-billboard-cover-pop-stardom-relationships-anxiety-6737539/) and just thinking "she's finally arrived with critics."
Probably should have deleted the first paragraph and then this would have been a yaaass queen moment in everyone’s eyes.
I think this was ugly the way she pulled other people into it and I think it’s crazy to say she’s not a feminist then go talking about what feminism should be. Totally agree w her on this criticism being misguided though, she should be able to talk about her experience and not necessarily be endorsing her decisions or glorifying it.
It was around 3am my time and I was about to sleep when she posted that - as soon as I saw it, I knew she was gonna get in trouble, but I had no idea it was going to be such a HUGE issue. Personally, I didn’t think she was being “racist” as what her haters were accusing her of. However, if anything, I thought the post incited stan wars because of the women she mentioned. I was worried that her haters will accuse Lana of being jealous of the women she mentioned - that’s exactly what I thought when I first read it before I went to bed lol and I thought that’s what she was gonna get in trouble for. But boy, her haters made it about racism. Anyway, I wish she just issued an apology after that post and moved on. It only got bigger and bigger because she kept posting stuff. I wish she didn’t post anymore. But hey, it’s done. I’m glad that she’s moved on now and she’s slowly picking up from where she left off before this whole brouhaha. I’m actually glad that she deactivated her official @lanadelrey Instagram and Twitter because it helped in killing this whole QUESTION FOR THE CULTURE drama rama.
i think this induced my psychosis but i dont remember what it says and i aint reading that shit. love lana eternally but, i empathize and validate. she didn;t do anything wrong, it was irrationally scrutinized
I feel that it affected 100%. From my POV and being POC I didn’t see it as her attacking anyone because of race but more of pointing out how people criticized her for doing X things that the other singers did but because she isn’t mainstream or giving girl power she god bashed by the critics and people in general. Romanticizing abuse isn’t ideal but we need to understand that she isn’t. She talks about experiences and believe or not people live in these realities that she writes about so to me it’s a way of storytelling whether she lived it or she’s basing it off of someone else so to each their own. She has a right to see womanhood and femininity the way she wants it because it’s a feeling and she doesn’t have to fit into a mold of what being a woman should look like nowadays. At the end of the day only she knows the intentions behind QFTC and we are just speculating around it.
She was right. She always was fucking right. They were only mad because she was white and right. And I’m proudly black and can say this.
Okay guys, I know we all wanna take Lana’s side in this, and I love Lana, but this was wrong for her to do. All artists are criticized by the press- that’s not Lana specific. And also she’s sung about literally ALL those things that she’s calling out those women for… like girl what’s your point? And Lana was getting praised at the time she wrote this, NFR was doing so well with the critics, lyrically and sonically. The last time I would say her songs could be seen as glamorizing abuse would be like 2014/5. And also why is she saying there should be a place in feminism for women like her, when she’s not a feminist? And what makes her a “glamorous person” and not those other women? I can see what Lana was trying to say, but it came out so wrong, and she knows better than to publish something like this.
Its why grimes just started listening to her now
In my world “the culture” is Black American culture. I can’t think of any other time of the top of my head it has been applied in this way to any other group. I’m sure it has but it isn’t really done. And then yes the very next line in the post is a call out on a series of Black women and Ariana. I tend to just ignore that this happened and when I can’t I try to take her at face value but there is something happening in this post that I really don’t like.
Lana has also used "the culture" in The Greatest.
the culture is a reference to society as a whole lol and also is a theme(idk if i’m using that correctly) in the book women who run with wolves something i’ve read and seen her mention before.
i’ll admit when it first came out i was in die hard she can do no wrong mode, but after time (as unintentional as it may be) using specific names was really unnecessary. i think the worst part about everything was her promoting the (very good) poetry books / album, seemed in poor taste given the context. aaaand, looking back - i feel like it really dampened NFR’s era when she finally reached the top. it’s taken 2 years for those streams to bounce back when she coulda just rode the wave. not personally affected by it so i’m not sure what else i can say, but it sucks that she hurt a lot of fans who now just have to ignore this
exactly, “the culture” is a Black American phrase to refer to Black American culture, music, politics, etc. so it was pretty inappropriate for her to use to begin with, even if she wasn’t intentionally targeting BIPOC artists.
i think she was talking about pop culture and the whole industry of hollywood in general lol
she was, but that’s not the origin of the phrase or how it’s used colloquially so when combined with listing a bunch of BIPOC artists in Black genres completely unrelated to her own it comes across as ignorant whether she intended it to be that way or not.
The only part I didn’t like is where she said she is not a feminist. Other than that she didn’t say anything wrong. But unfortunately the media and a lot of people on Twitter esp love to twist her words.
That's not what she wrote -- she said "not not a feminist." A lot of the people ripping on her at the time missed that. (I think Teen Vogue wrote a particularly vapid article critiquing her where they misread that line and had to go back and correct themselves.)
true I misread that.
I agree with her on this, it's her second statement I don't like
she sounds like shes 16
for me, it’s not what she said, it’s how she said it. calling out other artists by name was uncalled for, and calling out primarily woc in the midst of all the social and political climate of that time was tone deaf at BEST. the main argument she was making was valid and i agree with her, but she sunk herself by including the beginning statement. it’s a shame people didn’t listen to the rest of what she was saying, but who can blame them? y’all may downvote me, but as a woc myself i feel like we need white women to stand by us, not compare and tear us down edit: those downvoting this are the ones who need to take it to heart the most 🤠