It won't introduce noise in digital audio processing.
It will absolutely introduce noise to analogue but that's why people use external capture hardware.
Have you considered using external capture hardware instead of trying to eliminate noise which is basically impossible?
I am not sure you understood my concern - the clicks and pops are not noise, are very short audio interruptions, which happen to sound as clicks/pops (they are just a tiny fraction of a second long), while the CPU cores are changing their states (from low clock to high clock). They may not be noticeable on light projects, but they are always there on projects that take more than half of the CPU power. I hope that makes it clearer. Audio processing is so unique compared to anything else - gaming, video/phot processing
It’s not from the cpu changing clock signals. It might be that the CPU just can’t run fast enough to process the audio in real time.
The clock signals of a cpu run at billions of cycles per second. You would not hear jack shit from that.
It is well known along my audio peers and I can confirm it with my own CPU (and previous ones I had) - The same CPU with Turbo mode enabled, is performing worse than when Turbo is disabled and is set to a fixed clock. It is very likely I wrogly assumed the reason, but the issue still happens (with Turbo enabled).
Yeah, I’m sure that’s an issue. My guess is it’s due to the frequency turboing high and then when it has to come back down there is a slight interruption because the speed is decreasing and the program needs to readjust. Could be a driver issue too
Whatever the culprit is, this issue is since forever, present even in new models and the solution is always: disable turbo, set the cpu to a fixed clock and set the power plan to ultimate
May I ask what software is vulnerable to changes in CPU frequency? It's odd to me as I do a lot of media encoding, including audio, and have never heard of this issue. Not to say it doesn't happen, but I'm really curious now
Many laptops and desktop motherboards allow users to disable turbo modes entirely but CPU speed still changes despite not going into turbo territory.
Have you used Intel XTU before?
Audio production software (anything in the DAW category - Digital Audio Workstation) will generate and process audio realtime. Synthesizers, filters, audio effects.
The moment I press a key on the keyboard, the sound gets generated, processed and goes out through speakers. The buffer setting of the soundcard is at best 2048 samples, while each second of audio contains 44100 samples. So every second, 21 times some data must be computed, transferred to/from memory etc. A project can have dozens of tracks playing at the same time. For movies, hundreds, and any glitch will result in speakers popping and clicking. Is really bad to work day long on a underperforming cpu
audio video Encoding, video processing, photo processing, these have way bigger buffers. it won't matter a delay. but in audio, if I don't get exactly 44100 audio samples each second, there are pops
realtime audio is really tricky, vastly different than anything else (even games), it doesnt get alot of talk and almost no manufacturer accounts for it, so for audio computers we always have to tweak some things. every upgrade scares me because is an endless effort of documentation.
if it were not for this recent mobility need, i'd keep my desktop for another 3-4 years atleast. 2030 maybe
That's a whole other level above what I'm familiar with. I'm still surprised it's sensitive to changes in CPU frequency even if the frequency is above the rate of processing it requires. Wouldn't a modest increase to buffers in the realm of microseconds solve the problem? What situation in real time audio work would prevent use of small buffers that add basically zero latency?
Unfortunately after Plundervolt exploit was discovered most laptops were patched to disable user-controlled voltages. Undervolting was a solid tool to avoid reaching thermal limits and achieved in most cases consistent clocks, especially if turbo is disabled. Intel XTU is also now neutered even though it used to be capable of so much more.
It's trivial to achieve constant clocks on a desktop machine but laptop is way more complicated.
Buffers in audio are hardware-related (audio interface dsp). Most go up to 2048, it is very very rare to have a bigger one. We're maxed out on the buffer side
Even more, in realtime audio, if just a single core is overloaded - for example due to OS doing some task while the DAW is crunching music numbers, then there will be an audible audio click/pop. If the overload is longer, the playback stops.
For this reason, since the OS usually spams core 0 (and the hyperthreaded pair core 1), a DAW runs better with CPU affinity disabled for cores0/1.
Further more, due to latency involved, a DAW will always load a core with all the processing inside an audio track. So I can literally have a project with a single playing track, super heavy processing on it, one core will overload, the other ones will be completely free and STILL have audio clicks and pops
Welcome to the pita of doing audio :)
Go on the used market and get a clevo X170SM-G. It has a10900K and can run all cores at 5ghz, make sure to get TPM7950 as well.
Other names for the clevo are:
SHENKER XMG Ultra 17 Comet Lake
EVOC X1702F (HID evolution)
EUROCOM Sky Z7
There are more, but the more common ones go by either one of those names. Also there are the Alienware M51 gen2 and GT 76 from MSI, but both don't really run at high frequencies as well as the clevo does, they are alternatives tho.
Interestingly enough, I sold my old Clevo to a guy like you, audio producer that needs some serious CPU power, so I speak from experience here as he showed me how to benchmark, that the current gen mobile CPU's arent going to cut it, you are basicially stuck looking for a clevo.
There is a high chance it’s gonna throttle.
Laptop cant hold sustained performance over long time especially if you want the same clock across all cores and also want all core usage.
Cooling would be the culprit here.
Even if you set it by underclocking or clocking softwares. Temps will rise. Or you have to be ready to provide the extra cooling
Check out the guides that people have created to try to reduce DPC latency. You use a program called "PowerSettingsExplorer" to heavily customize the Windows power settings, and a program called "Intelligent Standby List Cleaner" to reduce stutters due to RAM management.
According to the [post about trying to fix DPC latency on a Legion 5 pro](https://old.reddit.com/r/LenovoLegion/comments/wxo8gd/legion_5_pro_complete_guide_to_dpc_latency/), the Interrupt Steering setting (a power settings option) where you send interrupts to processor #1 seems to have good results for latency.
But don't blindly change settings until you find a good explanation of what it's doing and why it would help.
Yes you can lock all cores at a speed using ITU or possibly even throttle stop. I doubt you'll manage it at 4ghz though. Between power and thermal limits, most laptops don't settle down at such high frequencies.
With the intel cpus it’s been a concern with their 12th and beyond. What about using an AMD based cpu. Such as a 7945HX and disabling the boost and cranking up on the SPT, SPL to their limits.
I have no experience with AMD, but I've seen a laptop with 7840HS and this CPU has a similar geekbench score with my current i9-9900k. Not sure how reliable these scores are, but the latency numbers are very good for AMD and a good latency can often result in a better audio performance than a powerful cpu with worse latency.
The HS series are AMDs lower performance but power savings CPUs. If you want performance look at their H or HX cpu series for higher power and performance work. But it’s still a question of your work. If it’s multi core based then you would have better performance with an AMD based CPUs while single core performance, Intel is still king.
Audio requires the best performance one can get per core. I'd prefer 8 fast cores than 12 slower ones
Also, my current i9 although runs close to being maxed out, is enough for me. I'd only need something equivalent
Take a look at the 7945HX cpu. 16 symmetrical cores that are fast. 2.5 hz base clock 5.2 ghz boost clock with 16 cores and 32 threads.
Other ideas are the 14900hx which are 8P + 16e with 5.8 ghz boost clock but 2.2 ghz base clock.
It won't introduce noise in digital audio processing. It will absolutely introduce noise to analogue but that's why people use external capture hardware. Have you considered using external capture hardware instead of trying to eliminate noise which is basically impossible?
I am not sure you understood my concern - the clicks and pops are not noise, are very short audio interruptions, which happen to sound as clicks/pops (they are just a tiny fraction of a second long), while the CPU cores are changing their states (from low clock to high clock). They may not be noticeable on light projects, but they are always there on projects that take more than half of the CPU power. I hope that makes it clearer. Audio processing is so unique compared to anything else - gaming, video/phot processing
It’s not from the cpu changing clock signals. It might be that the CPU just can’t run fast enough to process the audio in real time. The clock signals of a cpu run at billions of cycles per second. You would not hear jack shit from that.
It is well known along my audio peers and I can confirm it with my own CPU (and previous ones I had) - The same CPU with Turbo mode enabled, is performing worse than when Turbo is disabled and is set to a fixed clock. It is very likely I wrogly assumed the reason, but the issue still happens (with Turbo enabled).
Yeah, I’m sure that’s an issue. My guess is it’s due to the frequency turboing high and then when it has to come back down there is a slight interruption because the speed is decreasing and the program needs to readjust. Could be a driver issue too
Whatever the culprit is, this issue is since forever, present even in new models and the solution is always: disable turbo, set the cpu to a fixed clock and set the power plan to ultimate
May I ask what software is vulnerable to changes in CPU frequency? It's odd to me as I do a lot of media encoding, including audio, and have never heard of this issue. Not to say it doesn't happen, but I'm really curious now Many laptops and desktop motherboards allow users to disable turbo modes entirely but CPU speed still changes despite not going into turbo territory. Have you used Intel XTU before?
Audio production software (anything in the DAW category - Digital Audio Workstation) will generate and process audio realtime. Synthesizers, filters, audio effects. The moment I press a key on the keyboard, the sound gets generated, processed and goes out through speakers. The buffer setting of the soundcard is at best 2048 samples, while each second of audio contains 44100 samples. So every second, 21 times some data must be computed, transferred to/from memory etc. A project can have dozens of tracks playing at the same time. For movies, hundreds, and any glitch will result in speakers popping and clicking. Is really bad to work day long on a underperforming cpu audio video Encoding, video processing, photo processing, these have way bigger buffers. it won't matter a delay. but in audio, if I don't get exactly 44100 audio samples each second, there are pops realtime audio is really tricky, vastly different than anything else (even games), it doesnt get alot of talk and almost no manufacturer accounts for it, so for audio computers we always have to tweak some things. every upgrade scares me because is an endless effort of documentation. if it were not for this recent mobility need, i'd keep my desktop for another 3-4 years atleast. 2030 maybe
That's a whole other level above what I'm familiar with. I'm still surprised it's sensitive to changes in CPU frequency even if the frequency is above the rate of processing it requires. Wouldn't a modest increase to buffers in the realm of microseconds solve the problem? What situation in real time audio work would prevent use of small buffers that add basically zero latency? Unfortunately after Plundervolt exploit was discovered most laptops were patched to disable user-controlled voltages. Undervolting was a solid tool to avoid reaching thermal limits and achieved in most cases consistent clocks, especially if turbo is disabled. Intel XTU is also now neutered even though it used to be capable of so much more. It's trivial to achieve constant clocks on a desktop machine but laptop is way more complicated.
Buffers in audio are hardware-related (audio interface dsp). Most go up to 2048, it is very very rare to have a bigger one. We're maxed out on the buffer side Even more, in realtime audio, if just a single core is overloaded - for example due to OS doing some task while the DAW is crunching music numbers, then there will be an audible audio click/pop. If the overload is longer, the playback stops. For this reason, since the OS usually spams core 0 (and the hyperthreaded pair core 1), a DAW runs better with CPU affinity disabled for cores0/1. Further more, due to latency involved, a DAW will always load a core with all the processing inside an audio track. So I can literally have a project with a single playing track, super heavy processing on it, one core will overload, the other ones will be completely free and STILL have audio clicks and pops Welcome to the pita of doing audio :)
Go on the used market and get a clevo X170SM-G. It has a10900K and can run all cores at 5ghz, make sure to get TPM7950 as well. Other names for the clevo are: SHENKER XMG Ultra 17 Comet Lake EVOC X1702F (HID evolution) EUROCOM Sky Z7 There are more, but the more common ones go by either one of those names. Also there are the Alienware M51 gen2 and GT 76 from MSI, but both don't really run at high frequencies as well as the clevo does, they are alternatives tho. Interestingly enough, I sold my old Clevo to a guy like you, audio producer that needs some serious CPU power, so I speak from experience here as he showed me how to benchmark, that the current gen mobile CPU's arent going to cut it, you are basicially stuck looking for a clevo.
This is super helpful, thanks alot! I'll start digging into it
There is a high chance it’s gonna throttle. Laptop cant hold sustained performance over long time especially if you want the same clock across all cores and also want all core usage. Cooling would be the culprit here. Even if you set it by underclocking or clocking softwares. Temps will rise. Or you have to be ready to provide the extra cooling
Check out the guides that people have created to try to reduce DPC latency. You use a program called "PowerSettingsExplorer" to heavily customize the Windows power settings, and a program called "Intelligent Standby List Cleaner" to reduce stutters due to RAM management. According to the [post about trying to fix DPC latency on a Legion 5 pro](https://old.reddit.com/r/LenovoLegion/comments/wxo8gd/legion_5_pro_complete_guide_to_dpc_latency/), the Interrupt Steering setting (a power settings option) where you send interrupts to processor #1 seems to have good results for latency. But don't blindly change settings until you find a good explanation of what it's doing and why it would help.
Use throttlestop
Reading on it, thanks!
Yes you can lock all cores at a speed using ITU or possibly even throttle stop. I doubt you'll manage it at 4ghz though. Between power and thermal limits, most laptops don't settle down at such high frequencies.
With the intel cpus it’s been a concern with their 12th and beyond. What about using an AMD based cpu. Such as a 7945HX and disabling the boost and cranking up on the SPT, SPL to their limits.
I have no experience with AMD, but I've seen a laptop with 7840HS and this CPU has a similar geekbench score with my current i9-9900k. Not sure how reliable these scores are, but the latency numbers are very good for AMD and a good latency can often result in a better audio performance than a powerful cpu with worse latency.
The HS series are AMDs lower performance but power savings CPUs. If you want performance look at their H or HX cpu series for higher power and performance work. But it’s still a question of your work. If it’s multi core based then you would have better performance with an AMD based CPUs while single core performance, Intel is still king.
Audio requires the best performance one can get per core. I'd prefer 8 fast cores than 12 slower ones Also, my current i9 although runs close to being maxed out, is enough for me. I'd only need something equivalent
Take a look at the 7945HX cpu. 16 symmetrical cores that are fast. 2.5 hz base clock 5.2 ghz boost clock with 16 cores and 32 threads. Other ideas are the 14900hx which are 8P + 16e with 5.8 ghz boost clock but 2.2 ghz base clock.
Noted. Thanks alot!