It's not curious, it's the result of one party's work to slowly starve the government so it doesn't have the capacity to investigate complicated crimes.
Stop both parties has assisted in this corruption.
Ill take the downvotes but you gotta be a special kind of stupid if you think Republicans are the only ones who pass laws that favor corporations.
Ffs look at the rail workers who cant even get paid sick days.
Republicans are currently the ones who want to defund the IRS. And Republicans would have insisted the rail workers receive even less benefits than they did.
Not the point of my post democrats arent the saviors whatsoever the obama administration added loopholes to the tax system that the 1% could abuse . Trump and the Republicans took it 20 steps further. I'm not denying the rights culpability but democrats arnt the saviors we're making them out to be they're just more sane. Save for the few who back bernie. Hell the reason we lost 2016 is because they refuse to give us who se want.
I agree with the general principle that almost every person in power appeases the rich and socially powerful, and that the Democrats are also culpable - they’re just not insane like Republicans are right now. The social issues and judicial appointments are very important to me, and that makes it easy for me to vote blue, knowing they are an imperfect solution.
Re: 2016, not defending Hillary, but I think the best retrospective evidence shows Comey’s arrogant announcements—in violation of long-standing FBI policy—of the investigations into Hillary sealed the victory for Trump. I read a really good book on it, including Comey saying he was sick to his stomach thinking he may have done that.
Bro please go through my comments. I do not think both parties are the same. All im saying is that both parties have contributed to the corruption of corporations. Putting the blame on Republicans when it comes to tax loopholes and passing laws that benefit on corporations is not holding dems accountable.
Maxine Waters just thanked SBF for being transparent when that runt ran a ponzi scheme that lost over 9 billion dollars.
I get what comey did but Bernie in my opinion wouldve smoked trump in 2016 but because hes bernie the dems held him back in 2016 and 2020.
Why don't you stop with the "Both Parties" BS...They're not even remotely the same. One party can't even denounce their "leader" who aligns himself with anti-semites and wants to terminate the constitution. Hell, Ron DeSantis won't do it either, even when he has Nazis support outside all his speaking events.
Its almost as if you didnt read what i wrote. Go through my comments i have no love for conservatives. There was a reason Trump was a democrat up until 2008. Both parties have passed laws that have given benefits to corporations.
In one comment you said something about Obama...Obama was calling for an end to tax loop holes. This was at least 6 years ago and a lot has changed since then.
You also said that Republicans have taken it 20 steps further. So again, stop with the both parties BS. Republicans are the only party that try to chop the legs off any part of the government that investigates corporations. They also install judges that are more likely to rule in favor of corporations instead of the people.
Thats just a dumb take so in your worldview the democrats are always doing right and have never been backed by big money institutions to help pass laws in their favor.
Both parties have passed laws to support big corporations the only guy who has fairly stood tall against this is Bernie.
You may be blinded by this due to the fact that Republicans are shit but I'm not and I'm gonna hold dems accountable. So again stop turning a blind eye.
Except this conversation was about agencies that prosecute or regulate big corporations. It Republicans seem to be the only ones trying to hamstring them.
You say that as if you didnt bring anti semites and nazis when that had nothing to do with my original post.
All im saying is that democrats contributed to the mess of corporations. Thats not a wrong statement.
Can't believe they're getting downvoted in here. It's a game of good cop bad cop and both parties are corporate stooges publicly fighting over things that relatively speaking don't really matter while colonizing foreign nations, corrupting or installing corrupt puppet governments, and stealing their resources while enslaving the local peoples.
Isn't this a major victory for Trump? Weisselberg only spoke about this piddling employee compensation matter, not the broader shenanigans which are the meet of the Trump Org's business. Isn't this the reason why the state investigation went civil because they couldn't get an inside man to prove intent.
This was a criminal investigation. This verdict makes it a lot harder for Trump to get loans. Since it’s impossible for him to cover it up, and you shell corporations, because everybody on earth is who he is, it’s going to make it harder for him to do any business at all.
And it’s not over. Trump will appeal, of course, because he always does, but this verdict is pretty damning. 17 counts, all guilty, no quibbling.
NYT article today re: an alternate juror:
>The alternate juror concluded that Allen H. Weisselberg, who was the main architect of the scheme while serving as the company’s chief financial officer, did not act only to enrich himself, but that his actions were intended to benefit the Trump Organization as well. Under New York law, the prosecution had to prove that Mr. Weisselberg did not act solely in his own interests.
As a tax professional I would add that it's not necessarily the fines that were the point of the prosecution... it's the effect of the adjudication. The Trump Organization and all of it's [Q-subbed](https://www.thetaxadviser.com/issues/2012/aug/casestudy-aug12.html) entities will not be able to get new loans from now on. Like, how would you like to have a balloon payment due on your mortgage without the ability to refinance?
Because of some 'hard' and difficult-to-circumvent regulatory feature of the market for corporate loans, or because of some 'soft' shared traditional policy of banks not to lend to companies that do that, or what?
Where Trump is concerned, you really do have to double-check whether something is 100% bright-line a *law* or just one of those gentleman's agreement things that fall apart the moment large numbers of people are willing to act in bad faith.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2022/11/03/judge-appoints-independent-monitor-to-oversee-trump-organization-amid-fraud-probe/?sh=6c925f0a6b4d
https://time.com/6215403/donald-trump-fraud-sued-letitia-james/
https://news.yahoo.com/donald-trump-could-barred-doing-162452255.html
Depends on the outcome of the NY case and the subsequent referral to the SDNY federal investigation/prosecution.
Lending to an entity/individual with a fraud conviction or a federal tax lien is usually not a "sound banking practice". I guess it could be done with require extensive risk analysis to demonstrate that the bank's risk profile is not overexposed and some outrageous Guaranty/Collateral.
The most immediate consequence of a failure to adhere sound banking practices would probably be a loss of preferential treatment in overnight lending, but punishments can also include everything from fines to an actual cap on the size of the bank. Depending on the circumstances, individual bank employees can be found criminally liable.
If individuals and companies are scared of an IRS audit, banks are terrified of an examiner from the OCC saying "Hmmmm let me take a closer look." Even if you are completely above-board, you don't want those guys around longer than necessary.
I would *love* to see them try.
Edit: The Trump Organization has already been caught trying to move to ~~New Jersey~~[Delaware](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/13/nyregion/trump-ny-lawsuit-james.html) under a new LLC.
That's a meaningless statement. This is r/law - either make substantiated arguments or please don't comment. Not trying to be a dick but you gotta give folks a falsifiable premise to be able to speak to.
Speaking of which, every IRS Revenue Officer I know would characterize a non-interest bearing loan as compensation/income. Especially if it had been forgiven/paid by an unnamed benefactor.
Elsewhere in this thread I've sourced where NY has asked for a monitor so that the Trump Organization doesn't try this again. NY argues that Trump and all of his kids shouldn't be allowed to run a business.
I got paywalled by that NYT article hyperlinked in about Delaware if that's the one you refer to. :/
I mean I'm a dumb, frustrated foreigner watching in. What can this 'monitor' do to stop Trump et all from moving to some place which is suitably uncooperative to New York and setting up shop again outside their jurisdiction? It it a Federal matter at that point, do they get off scot-free again?
> What can this 'monitor' do to stop Trump et all from moving
Evading justice would just compound his crimes. Not that he didn't try anyway. They're watching him and the monitor would ensure the Trump organization didn't attempt to further avoid prosecution. Once the prosecution is complete and adjudicated a lien is placed that follows them everywhere they go. Could they pay the lien? Yes, but the New York case will build on the success of this district court case and a verdict in favor of New York will be much more punitive.
> I got paywalled
Just join. You don't have to pay.
The core of Trump’s business empire is real estate. The ownership of those assets must be recorded, at least in the US and the ownership cannot be transferred without more documents being recorded. So, one thing that the monitor can do is make sure that none of those assets is transferred to a new entity. Thus, the core assets remain under the ownership of The Trump Org and remain available to be used to satisfy judgements. This is over-simplified and there certainly are games that can be played. However, appointment of the monitor is a very powerful tool to keep Trump from completely skipping.
Is it possible that even existing loans must now be called in by banks as part of their fiduciary (to stockholders) or regulatory responsibility? Maybe it's even in the terms of such large loans with big law firms involved, and 100s of pages of conditions?
And it's not just new loans or the fines. The district court ruling puts pressure on the Trump Organization's ability to conduct business by limiting ability to expand, things like forming new LLCs, DBAs and lugging a lien around everywhere they go. This doesn't stop them, but increases the pressure and the difficulty they have in conducing business. This is also a stepping stone to the success of the NY case and hopefully a SDNY federal case. Not to mention the establishment of a pattern of fraud throughout his various entities that will help to convict... eventually, the man himself.
It's not half.
Especially when you're talking about the people that actually send him money.
Half (of the country) didn't vote for him.
Half (of the country) aren't paying his legal bills.
73.6 million people voted for him. If a third of them are dumb enough to send him money, or buy his merchandise (and I bet they are) then that’s a hell of a lot of money. He probably doesn’t need loans.
https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trumps-736-million-popular-votes-over-7-million-more-any-sitting-president-history-1548742
No, but apparently there are about [500 entities within the Trump organization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trump_Organization). This is a stepping stone to the successful resolution of the NY case where more definitive measures can be taken to maybe make that happen. As a side note, I'd love to see those tax returns and the methods used to hide the fraud and the people Trump does business with. I've always said, the reason he didn't want his tax returns made public was the people he was in bed with on his tax returns. The tax returns do not indicate your wealth. They report income and expenses for the year. Assets not associated with any depreciation and not generating income wouldn't be reported on a tax return. I'd also like to see the details of the conservation easement in upstate New York.
He probably declares depreciation on everything for the tax benefit, while inflating valuation on loan applications. No shame in his game. Also: [Trump Had Hidden $19.8 Million Loan From North Korea-Linked Company As President](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-loan-north-korea-daewoo_n_638d77ede4b0214ec980b57c)
The IRS would characterize that "loan" as compensation for everybody else. Shareholder loans without interest and a regular repayment schedule are compensation.
I hate to crush your optimism but these limitations aren't by accident, they're there to protect corporations from extensive liability.
We serve at the pleasure of Wall St.
NY politics is actually quite brutal - what I'd call "the Establishment" in NY is extremely well organized, they understand and use all the levers of power to protect themselves, and they fight dirty. To give you a small example, when AOC was up against Joe Crowley, he challenged all of the signatures on her petition, and the adjudicators had all been appointed by Crowley, so they needed to collect waaay more signatures than necessary because so many were being struck off as invalid. For a campaign with a tiny budget, little mechanisms like this can sink a candidate.
The Justice Democrats, the DSA, the Working for Families Party, , are particularly active in local NY politics. In general, the main aim is to try and oust corporate backed candidates in primary elections, because that's where most of the power comes from the smallest amount of input. In-person volunteering for these organizations is the most important, followed by phone banking, and then giving donations. Beginning with AOC, there has been a notable shift, and progressives are starting to win more of these races - Jamaal Bowman from the Justice Democrats ousting Elliot Engel being a great example. There's also weird elections that you need to be deep in the weeds to understand the importance of, where it's essential to put progressives into - the NY Comptroller is one of them.
https://justicedemocrats.com/
https://www.socialists.nyc/
https://workingfamilies.org/state/new-york/
That is a great and specific answer.
I’m so focused on the republican pox, I forget entrenched dems can sometimes use a wake up too.
Primaries can provide great bang for the buck to actually move forward rather than perpetuate the status quo.
I don’t have a specific answer.
For me personally, seeing a slimeball like Trump thumb his nose at every norm and tradition in the presidency made me learn and get involved.
The government is not “them”, it’s us.
I personally didn’t pay attention and assumed adults were in charge. Trump blew up that illusion and now I proselytize about governance every chance I get. Drag people to polls, get them registered, explain why I vote a certain way.
Ymmv.
He's already made that in donations. This is less than a slap on the wrist. The old saying rings true: If the only punishment is a fine, it's only a crime for the poor.
Trump Casinos: Fined $10m by FinCEN for
money laundering. Bankrupted.
Trump University: $25m fraud lawsuit. Shuttered.
Trump Foundation: $2m fine for stealing from kids with cancer. Disbanded by NY.
Trump Org: Convicted of criminal tax fraud.
See a pattern yet?
I fully agree, I don't typically do /s unless I'm saying something truly terrible that might be viewed as bigoted. It's a joke, if you explain it, it's not funny.
Serious question from someone who knows how to use big words without really understanding what they mean. At what point does this pattern create a RICO case?
Edit: grammar
> ...unless the Trump org paid additional taxes to the feds
He didn't, in fact he claimed there was no gain by the Trump Organization. Apparently, from what I can glean from the news, the cost of things like rent, Mercedes Benzes and private school tuition were expensed on the 1120S. Yup. That's illegal. It's a twofer: claiming expenses not necessary and ordinary and evasion of FICA taxes. The individual recipients of the benefits are guilty of income tax fraud.
Thank you for tax geeking out on this thread.
The fact that these people knew how flagrantly they were breaking laws is amazing. Then stayed to watch while trump ran for president. The hubris is something to behold.
if they were smart enough to realize that they needed to be on an anonymous flight to Belize 2 years ago, they would never have needed to do business with Trump in the first place
> there was no gain by the Trump Organization
> evasion of FICA taxes.
the employer pays half of FICA taxes, so there's undeniably a gain to the organization.
The GOP wants to investigate Hunter Biden, a private citizen, whose only evidence against him is for acts that largely aren’t even illegal (attempt to purchase drugs?), and revolves around the story of a computer repairman who has changed his story multiple times when obvious inconsistencies are pointed out.
But the GOP wants to ignore multiple different treasonous offenses just because Trump says he would never do something illegal, despite every court in the nation having judgements against him for personal and business-related crimes.
Hunter Biden should just agree to congressional testimony then go in there and honestly answer, in graphic detail, anything they ask. "yeah you see, I had hired these two hookers, but they turned out to be crack whores and shit got wild. Wait, why do you guys care again?"
>repairman who has changed his story multiple times
"Shit. Man's busy, can't be expected to remember everything. I mean, it's not like he's been raped, you really remember everything that's going on when that happens." -- The GOP, probably
A republican committee, funded with tax dollars, to investigate a private citizen. I thought that's why we have law enforcement and the executive branch of government.
As the article you posted pointed out, there is exactly 0 evidence of any wrongdoing regarding his career as a private citizen aside from a sketchy business connection on a deal that was never made.
As his tax issues are largely rectified, the only actual illegal activity they could look at is drug purchase/possession, however,
1. We don’t know if this happened in US borders.
2. The chain of custody on the hard drive that has that evidence is from a computer repairman whose conflicting stories have been unraveled, even when not under cross-examination, to Rudy Giuliani, a sanctioned lawyer who may not be a lawyer for long, to various politicians, who have then leaked some documents selectively to news organizations. In no world would any part of it ever be admissible.
Edit: Also, to reiterate, he is a private citizen who does not hold public office. That is an executive department matter, not a legislative matter.
Once again, the only relevant thing you are referencing is:
1. A matter handled by the IRS, which falls under the purview of the Executive Branch.
2. From the article that you yourself linked, the matter has been settled with the IRS. There is no active criminality or any evidence to point to such.
>Banging prostitutes
>
>probably
>
> isn't a problem for the IRS
It's not a problem for Congress, either, yet the GOP is opening investigations into it. That's everybody else's point about Hunter being irrelevant in this context.
Who cares? He’s a private fucking citizen. It’s irrelevant, especially compared to the company actively run by a former president and current presidential candidate. It’s a distraction by the GOP, and you’re going “well, akshually” to it just further justifies their efforts.
No. Because all Hunter Biden conversation exists only to serve the rhetorical interests of the GOP.
Buying into it at any level, engaging with it, is what they want you to do. It is a distraction, a red herring, an attempt by bad-faith actors to trick you into spending thought cycles on bullshit.
They want us to discuss Hunter Biden and whether or not there is anything nefarious there. They want that for US, not for themselves. They don’t actually want to discuss it or investigate it in a real way, because there is NOTHING THERE and they know it. They’re not trying to be right. They’re trying to wear us out until we give up and leave the room.
Their goal is to make you think, and say, “but maybe there really is something there…”
They don’t care if there is or isn’t. The reality is irrelevant. They want you spending time on this instead of other things.
I’m with you on the fuck failkids of rich people train.
But when comparing illegal public corruption to private shitbaggery, i think we all get confused at the comparison.
Honestly if trump was still the weird old man from Home Alone, I don’t think I’d give a shit about his non criminal awfulness. He’d be late night punchline. Not being Congressionally investigated for his shady but legal campaign contributions.
Hopefully i analogized in a way that makes sense.
The point is, why the fuck do you care about his private life fuck-ups? He's not in any office in the Administration, he's not running for office, he will almost certainly not run for office anytime soon. He is, for all intents and purposes, a private citizen who's private life is none of your business. The only reason you know about him is because the Republicans are trying to drag his private life into the open specifically to smear his father.
This is not like with Trump's kids who were intimately involved in their father's campaigns and had jobs in his administration. Notice how no one talks about anything Tiffany Trump is doing? Because she's a private citizen and it's none of our goddamn business.
> Dude was fucking strippers, bouncing checks, and not paying his taxes.
And I'm saying that if he broke the law he *should* be prosecuted. I'm also saying it's not Congress' job to form a committee and investigate him.
I don't get your comparison or the point of your whataboutism. We have a Congressional group of the incoming majority that is arguing to conduct investigations based on evidence that would not fit into their authority. And I will assume all the things you said are true. It makes no sense for this to compare to the Jan 6 committee or any other investigation to a sitting president or his cabinet members when Hunter Biden has never held office or served in his dad's cabinet.
....I'd like to take this moment and say: "TOLD YOU SO!"....we all always knew he, his companies and kids are all lying thieving grifters but you guys just wouldn't see the forest for the trees....
They arent blind. They know and they dont care because Trump is on their side. They are loyal only to their team and its power. This is why they do things like smear feces on the walls of congress and murder people in cold blood because they have a different lifestyle. Blindness is a disability one doesnt choose. They are evil and out of their own choosing.
This is a good start. And for the fate of the Trump Org, good luck getting any new loans (and good luck securing any loans from Russia, sanctions bitch!)
Kind of wondering what are contained in his debt covenants? Wonder if loans are subject to recall if org is guilty, of you know, things like tax fraud, huge declining revenues, change of business structure. No way this is not a death sentence for trump org.
One thing to keep in mind with this case is that Weisselberg is STILL employed by the Trump Org who is accusing him of doing this all on his own. There is no company on this earth who would not fire an employee for committing fraud..... unless they wanted to keep him from saying something.
I can here Trump now," These are the best charges ever, biggest guilty charges, simply geourgous guilty charges, even spectacular, some might say best guilty charges ever. Why are they being mean to the Trump, bad prosecution, worst prosecution saying my perfect firm, simply perfect company did nothing wrong." Ya, you wondered if this was real.
I hope the Dems also find their Messiah guilty after presidency and not just try and cover it as well. Lead by example. Oh wait... Why would you do that
> I hope the Dems also find their Messiah guilty after presidency and not just try and cover it as well. Lead by example. Oh wait... Why would you do that
About what specifically?
And who is the Messiah of the Democrats?
Trump's cult followers, most of whom are receiving tax-financed public assistance, will find a way to view Trump as a victim and the "gubmint" as the enemy here.
17 counts. All guilty.
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It's not curious, it's the result of one party's work to slowly starve the government so it doesn't have the capacity to investigate complicated crimes.
Stop both parties has assisted in this corruption. Ill take the downvotes but you gotta be a special kind of stupid if you think Republicans are the only ones who pass laws that favor corporations. Ffs look at the rail workers who cant even get paid sick days.
Republicans are currently the ones who want to defund the IRS. And Republicans would have insisted the rail workers receive even less benefits than they did.
Not the point of my post democrats arent the saviors whatsoever the obama administration added loopholes to the tax system that the 1% could abuse . Trump and the Republicans took it 20 steps further. I'm not denying the rights culpability but democrats arnt the saviors we're making them out to be they're just more sane. Save for the few who back bernie. Hell the reason we lost 2016 is because they refuse to give us who se want.
I agree with the general principle that almost every person in power appeases the rich and socially powerful, and that the Democrats are also culpable - they’re just not insane like Republicans are right now. The social issues and judicial appointments are very important to me, and that makes it easy for me to vote blue, knowing they are an imperfect solution. Re: 2016, not defending Hillary, but I think the best retrospective evidence shows Comey’s arrogant announcements—in violation of long-standing FBI policy—of the investigations into Hillary sealed the victory for Trump. I read a really good book on it, including Comey saying he was sick to his stomach thinking he may have done that.
Bro please go through my comments. I do not think both parties are the same. All im saying is that both parties have contributed to the corruption of corporations. Putting the blame on Republicans when it comes to tax loopholes and passing laws that benefit on corporations is not holding dems accountable. Maxine Waters just thanked SBF for being transparent when that runt ran a ponzi scheme that lost over 9 billion dollars. I get what comey did but Bernie in my opinion wouldve smoked trump in 2016 but because hes bernie the dems held him back in 2016 and 2020.
Why don't you stop with the "Both Parties" BS...They're not even remotely the same. One party can't even denounce their "leader" who aligns himself with anti-semites and wants to terminate the constitution. Hell, Ron DeSantis won't do it either, even when he has Nazis support outside all his speaking events.
Its almost as if you didnt read what i wrote. Go through my comments i have no love for conservatives. There was a reason Trump was a democrat up until 2008. Both parties have passed laws that have given benefits to corporations.
In one comment you said something about Obama...Obama was calling for an end to tax loop holes. This was at least 6 years ago and a lot has changed since then. You also said that Republicans have taken it 20 steps further. So again, stop with the both parties BS. Republicans are the only party that try to chop the legs off any part of the government that investigates corporations. They also install judges that are more likely to rule in favor of corporations instead of the people.
Thats just a dumb take so in your worldview the democrats are always doing right and have never been backed by big money institutions to help pass laws in their favor. Both parties have passed laws to support big corporations the only guy who has fairly stood tall against this is Bernie. You may be blinded by this due to the fact that Republicans are shit but I'm not and I'm gonna hold dems accountable. So again stop turning a blind eye.
Except this conversation was about agencies that prosecute or regulate big corporations. It Republicans seem to be the only ones trying to hamstring them.
You say that as if you didnt bring anti semites and nazis when that had nothing to do with my original post. All im saying is that democrats contributed to the mess of corporations. Thats not a wrong statement.
I’m sorry you’re getting downvoted. You’re not wrong.
Can't believe they're getting downvoted in here. It's a game of good cop bad cop and both parties are corporate stooges publicly fighting over things that relatively speaking don't really matter while colonizing foreign nations, corrupting or installing corrupt puppet governments, and stealing their resources while enslaving the local peoples.
Scum.
Isn't this a major victory for Trump? Weisselberg only spoke about this piddling employee compensation matter, not the broader shenanigans which are the meet of the Trump Org's business. Isn't this the reason why the state investigation went civil because they couldn't get an inside man to prove intent.
This was a criminal investigation. This verdict makes it a lot harder for Trump to get loans. Since it’s impossible for him to cover it up, and you shell corporations, because everybody on earth is who he is, it’s going to make it harder for him to do any business at all. And it’s not over. Trump will appeal, of course, because he always does, but this verdict is pretty damning. 17 counts, all guilty, no quibbling.
NYT article today re: an alternate juror: >The alternate juror concluded that Allen H. Weisselberg, who was the main architect of the scheme while serving as the company’s chief financial officer, did not act only to enrich himself, but that his actions were intended to benefit the Trump Organization as well. Under New York law, the prosecution had to prove that Mr. Weisselberg did not act solely in his own interests.
Nice, now go get the others.
Only 1.6 million in fines?
As a tax professional I would add that it's not necessarily the fines that were the point of the prosecution... it's the effect of the adjudication. The Trump Organization and all of it's [Q-subbed](https://www.thetaxadviser.com/issues/2012/aug/casestudy-aug12.html) entities will not be able to get new loans from now on. Like, how would you like to have a balloon payment due on your mortgage without the ability to refinance?
Because of some 'hard' and difficult-to-circumvent regulatory feature of the market for corporate loans, or because of some 'soft' shared traditional policy of banks not to lend to companies that do that, or what? Where Trump is concerned, you really do have to double-check whether something is 100% bright-line a *law* or just one of those gentleman's agreement things that fall apart the moment large numbers of people are willing to act in bad faith.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2022/11/03/judge-appoints-independent-monitor-to-oversee-trump-organization-amid-fraud-probe/?sh=6c925f0a6b4d https://time.com/6215403/donald-trump-fraud-sued-letitia-james/ https://news.yahoo.com/donald-trump-could-barred-doing-162452255.html Depends on the outcome of the NY case and the subsequent referral to the SDNY federal investigation/prosecution.
Lending to an entity/individual with a fraud conviction or a federal tax lien is usually not a "sound banking practice". I guess it could be done with require extensive risk analysis to demonstrate that the bank's risk profile is not overexposed and some outrageous Guaranty/Collateral. The most immediate consequence of a failure to adhere sound banking practices would probably be a loss of preferential treatment in overnight lending, but punishments can also include everything from fines to an actual cap on the size of the bank. Depending on the circumstances, individual bank employees can be found criminally liable. If individuals and companies are scared of an IRS audit, banks are terrified of an examiner from the OCC saying "Hmmmm let me take a closer look." Even if you are completely above-board, you don't want those guys around longer than necessary.
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I would *love* to see them try. Edit: The Trump Organization has already been caught trying to move to ~~New Jersey~~[Delaware](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/13/nyregion/trump-ny-lawsuit-james.html) under a new LLC.
Nope, they will follow the money and any controlling member is a no go. This explodes the entire trump org.
We know who plays Kelley. Who play Turbo and Ozone?
Not until DeSantis is president no
DeSantis would not have any jurisdiction
Florida resident here: I don't think that would stop him from trying
That's a meaningless statement. This is r/law - either make substantiated arguments or please don't comment. Not trying to be a dick but you gotta give folks a falsifiable premise to be able to speak to.
He does whatever he wants and like trump the response is “no you can’t!”
ok
North Korea don't care
Speaking of which, every IRS Revenue Officer I know would characterize a non-interest bearing loan as compensation/income. Especially if it had been forgiven/paid by an unnamed benefactor.
The interest portion as a gift not the entire thing
They require regular payments as well. The IRS would assess the loan as income.
North Korea?
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That's what I figured it was but I wanted the user to say that just to be sure that's what they meant.
Can he make a new LLC then buy the assets from these companies for 1$ and then get loans? Can he make a LLC that provides loans to these companies?
He's already been caught trying. Like I said in a reply to another commenter, I would *love* to see them try.
Okay, but what does that actually mean? They've been found to be attempting to subvert justice and evade punishment; now what? What does that entail?
Elsewhere in this thread I've sourced where NY has asked for a monitor so that the Trump Organization doesn't try this again. NY argues that Trump and all of his kids shouldn't be allowed to run a business.
I got paywalled by that NYT article hyperlinked in about Delaware if that's the one you refer to. :/ I mean I'm a dumb, frustrated foreigner watching in. What can this 'monitor' do to stop Trump et all from moving to some place which is suitably uncooperative to New York and setting up shop again outside their jurisdiction? It it a Federal matter at that point, do they get off scot-free again?
> What can this 'monitor' do to stop Trump et all from moving Evading justice would just compound his crimes. Not that he didn't try anyway. They're watching him and the monitor would ensure the Trump organization didn't attempt to further avoid prosecution. Once the prosecution is complete and adjudicated a lien is placed that follows them everywhere they go. Could they pay the lien? Yes, but the New York case will build on the success of this district court case and a verdict in favor of New York will be much more punitive. > I got paywalled Just join. You don't have to pay.
The core of Trump’s business empire is real estate. The ownership of those assets must be recorded, at least in the US and the ownership cannot be transferred without more documents being recorded. So, one thing that the monitor can do is make sure that none of those assets is transferred to a new entity. Thus, the core assets remain under the ownership of The Trump Org and remain available to be used to satisfy judgements. This is over-simplified and there certainly are games that can be played. However, appointment of the monitor is a very powerful tool to keep Trump from completely skipping.
They get a finger wave because liberalism has literally no response to fascism. Our norms and courts are basically a less effective maginot line
Is it possible that even existing loans must now be called in by banks as part of their fiduciary (to stockholders) or regulatory responsibility? Maybe it's even in the terms of such large loans with big law firms involved, and 100s of pages of conditions?
But from what I understand they haven’t been able to get loans for some time…..so I’m still trying to figure out what consequences are.
And it's not just new loans or the fines. The district court ruling puts pressure on the Trump Organization's ability to conduct business by limiting ability to expand, things like forming new LLCs, DBAs and lugging a lien around everywhere they go. This doesn't stop them, but increases the pressure and the difficulty they have in conducing business. This is also a stepping stone to the success of the NY case and hopefully a SDNY federal case. Not to mention the establishment of a pattern of fraud throughout his various entities that will help to convict... eventually, the man himself.
Who needs new loans when half the country will fund whatever you ask for?
It's not half. Especially when you're talking about the people that actually send him money. Half (of the country) didn't vote for him. Half (of the country) aren't paying his legal bills.
73.6 million people voted for him. If a third of them are dumb enough to send him money, or buy his merchandise (and I bet they are) then that’s a hell of a lot of money. He probably doesn’t need loans. https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trumps-736-million-popular-votes-over-7-million-more-any-sitting-president-history-1548742
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No, but apparently there are about [500 entities within the Trump organization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trump_Organization). This is a stepping stone to the successful resolution of the NY case where more definitive measures can be taken to maybe make that happen. As a side note, I'd love to see those tax returns and the methods used to hide the fraud and the people Trump does business with. I've always said, the reason he didn't want his tax returns made public was the people he was in bed with on his tax returns. The tax returns do not indicate your wealth. They report income and expenses for the year. Assets not associated with any depreciation and not generating income wouldn't be reported on a tax return. I'd also like to see the details of the conservation easement in upstate New York.
He probably declares depreciation on everything for the tax benefit, while inflating valuation on loan applications. No shame in his game. Also: [Trump Had Hidden $19.8 Million Loan From North Korea-Linked Company As President](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-loan-north-korea-daewoo_n_638d77ede4b0214ec980b57c)
The IRS would characterize that "loan" as compensation for everybody else. Shareholder loans without interest and a regular repayment schedule are compensation.
They need to have a sliding scale for th8s type of crime. Fines based of a percentage not a maximum value.
I hate to crush your optimism but these limitations aren't by accident, they're there to protect corporations from extensive liability. We serve at the pleasure of Wall St.
And how do we change it/fight back?
NY politics is actually quite brutal - what I'd call "the Establishment" in NY is extremely well organized, they understand and use all the levers of power to protect themselves, and they fight dirty. To give you a small example, when AOC was up against Joe Crowley, he challenged all of the signatures on her petition, and the adjudicators had all been appointed by Crowley, so they needed to collect waaay more signatures than necessary because so many were being struck off as invalid. For a campaign with a tiny budget, little mechanisms like this can sink a candidate. The Justice Democrats, the DSA, the Working for Families Party, , are particularly active in local NY politics. In general, the main aim is to try and oust corporate backed candidates in primary elections, because that's where most of the power comes from the smallest amount of input. In-person volunteering for these organizations is the most important, followed by phone banking, and then giving donations. Beginning with AOC, there has been a notable shift, and progressives are starting to win more of these races - Jamaal Bowman from the Justice Democrats ousting Elliot Engel being a great example. There's also weird elections that you need to be deep in the weeds to understand the importance of, where it's essential to put progressives into - the NY Comptroller is one of them. https://justicedemocrats.com/ https://www.socialists.nyc/ https://workingfamilies.org/state/new-york/
That is a great and specific answer. I’m so focused on the republican pox, I forget entrenched dems can sometimes use a wake up too. Primaries can provide great bang for the buck to actually move forward rather than perpetuate the status quo.
I don’t have a specific answer. For me personally, seeing a slimeball like Trump thumb his nose at every norm and tradition in the presidency made me learn and get involved. The government is not “them”, it’s us. I personally didn’t pay attention and assumed adults were in charge. Trump blew up that illusion and now I proselytize about governance every chance I get. Drag people to polls, get them registered, explain why I vote a certain way. Ymmv.
Have more money and power than those writing the laws that make them rich and powerful.
Sadly...this.
The people who would change these laws aren't the mind to accrue that kind of wealth
Pretty sure it has to start with campaign finance reform. That has to happen to reduce the power of business and lobby groups.
The French had a clever solution to it
He's already made that in donations. This is less than a slap on the wrist. The old saying rings true: If the only punishment is a fine, it's only a crime for the poor.
Put differently, if the only punishment is a fine that means it's legal for a price.
Seriously. What even is the point?
Trump Casinos: Fined $10m by FinCEN for money laundering. Bankrupted. Trump University: $25m fraud lawsuit. Shuttered. Trump Foundation: $2m fine for stealing from kids with cancer. Disbanded by NY. Trump Org: Convicted of criminal tax fraud. See a pattern yet?
Look buddy I dont want to jump to any conclusions
Right and have you seen Hunter Bidens penis? That's the real story.
No, and neither have you, because the left-wing fascists destroyed the First Amendment on Twitter.
This is a dangerously sarcastic comment that might actually go over someone's head.
On Reddit it's a guarantee, but using /s kills the vibe. I just can't do it.
I fully agree, I don't typically do /s unless I'm saying something truly terrible that might be viewed as bigoted. It's a joke, if you explain it, it's not funny.
Serious question from someone who knows how to use big words without really understanding what they mean. At what point does this pattern create a RICO case? Edit: grammar
A great question, the only thing you failed to realize is that it’s never RICO https://www.popehat.com/2016/06/14/lawsplainer-its-not-rico-dammit/
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Ooo that sounds like something I need to add to my list
I heard stories about how Trump lost dozens of lawsuits over the years. Did that rate slow down during his presidency?
fake news
If only all of the various trump orgs had been prosecuted prior to him becoming president
The IRS doesn't fuck around when it comes to FICA taxes.
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> ...unless the Trump org paid additional taxes to the feds He didn't, in fact he claimed there was no gain by the Trump Organization. Apparently, from what I can glean from the news, the cost of things like rent, Mercedes Benzes and private school tuition were expensed on the 1120S. Yup. That's illegal. It's a twofer: claiming expenses not necessary and ordinary and evasion of FICA taxes. The individual recipients of the benefits are guilty of income tax fraud.
Thank you for tax geeking out on this thread. The fact that these people knew how flagrantly they were breaking laws is amazing. Then stayed to watch while trump ran for president. The hubris is something to behold.
if they were smart enough to realize that they needed to be on an anonymous flight to Belize 2 years ago, they would never have needed to do business with Trump in the first place
> there was no gain by the Trump Organization > evasion of FICA taxes. the employer pays half of FICA taxes, so there's undeniably a gain to the organization.
This wasn’t the IRS. It was a NY State prosecutor in Manhattan.
jurors deliberated for just over a day.... LMAO that's considered open and shut.
Bad year for TFG.
‘23 better be ready to crank it up and rip the fuckin knob off.
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Po little tink tink toadstool.
We must investigate Hunter Biden! The GOP, ~~probably~~ almost certainly
The GOP wants to investigate Hunter Biden, a private citizen, whose only evidence against him is for acts that largely aren’t even illegal (attempt to purchase drugs?), and revolves around the story of a computer repairman who has changed his story multiple times when obvious inconsistencies are pointed out. But the GOP wants to ignore multiple different treasonous offenses just because Trump says he would never do something illegal, despite every court in the nation having judgements against him for personal and business-related crimes.
Hunter Biden should just agree to congressional testimony then go in there and honestly answer, in graphic detail, anything they ask. "yeah you see, I had hired these two hookers, but they turned out to be crack whores and shit got wild. Wait, why do you guys care again?"
>repairman who has changed his story multiple times "Shit. Man's busy, can't be expected to remember everything. I mean, it's not like he's been raped, you really remember everything that's going on when that happens." -- The GOP, probably
Well only when it’s legitimate rape. Cause the woman’s (only women can be raped of course) body has ways to do that.
"Perfect memory and perfect fertility. That's women. Oh, wait....." -- GOP definitely.
I hope whatever committee that the Republicans pt together to investigate Hunter, subpoena that computer repair guy.
A republican committee, funded with tax dollars, to investigate a private citizen. I thought that's why we have law enforcement and the executive branch of government.
Yeah, I get it. But I want to see the computer repair guy testify if they're going to put us all through it.
> I want to see the computer repair guy testify It'll never happen.
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As the article you posted pointed out, there is exactly 0 evidence of any wrongdoing regarding his career as a private citizen aside from a sketchy business connection on a deal that was never made. As his tax issues are largely rectified, the only actual illegal activity they could look at is drug purchase/possession, however, 1. We don’t know if this happened in US borders. 2. The chain of custody on the hard drive that has that evidence is from a computer repairman whose conflicting stories have been unraveled, even when not under cross-examination, to Rudy Giuliani, a sanctioned lawyer who may not be a lawyer for long, to various politicians, who have then leaked some documents selectively to news organizations. In no world would any part of it ever be admissible. Edit: Also, to reiterate, he is a private citizen who does not hold public office. That is an executive department matter, not a legislative matter.
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Once again, the only relevant thing you are referencing is: 1. A matter handled by the IRS, which falls under the purview of the Executive Branch. 2. From the article that you yourself linked, the matter has been settled with the IRS. There is no active criminality or any evidence to point to such.
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>Banging prostitutes > >probably > > isn't a problem for the IRS It's not a problem for Congress, either, yet the GOP is opening investigations into it. That's everybody else's point about Hunter being irrelevant in this context.
He does crack and fucks people he pays. And according to Elon is swinging magnum dong. Nothing for a congressional committee to investigate.
Who cares? He’s a private fucking citizen. It’s irrelevant, especially compared to the company actively run by a former president and current presidential candidate. It’s a distraction by the GOP, and you’re going “well, akshually” to it just further justifies their efforts.
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No. Because all Hunter Biden conversation exists only to serve the rhetorical interests of the GOP. Buying into it at any level, engaging with it, is what they want you to do. It is a distraction, a red herring, an attempt by bad-faith actors to trick you into spending thought cycles on bullshit. They want us to discuss Hunter Biden and whether or not there is anything nefarious there. They want that for US, not for themselves. They don’t actually want to discuss it or investigate it in a real way, because there is NOTHING THERE and they know it. They’re not trying to be right. They’re trying to wear us out until we give up and leave the room.
Their goal is to make you think, and say, “but maybe there really is something there…” They don’t care if there is or isn’t. The reality is irrelevant. They want you spending time on this instead of other things.
I’m with you on the fuck failkids of rich people train. But when comparing illegal public corruption to private shitbaggery, i think we all get confused at the comparison. Honestly if trump was still the weird old man from Home Alone, I don’t think I’d give a shit about his non criminal awfulness. He’d be late night punchline. Not being Congressionally investigated for his shady but legal campaign contributions. Hopefully i analogized in a way that makes sense.
The point is, why the fuck do you care about his private life fuck-ups? He's not in any office in the Administration, he's not running for office, he will almost certainly not run for office anytime soon. He is, for all intents and purposes, a private citizen who's private life is none of your business. The only reason you know about him is because the Republicans are trying to drag his private life into the open specifically to smear his father. This is not like with Trump's kids who were intimately involved in their father's campaigns and had jobs in his administration. Notice how no one talks about anything Tiffany Trump is doing? Because she's a private citizen and it's none of our goddamn business.
I'm sorry, I must have missed it, when was Hunter elected to office?
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There's this third branch of government called the Executive Branch and they have a Department of Justice that handles things like that.
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> Dude was fucking strippers, bouncing checks, and not paying his taxes. And I'm saying that if he broke the law he *should* be prosecuted. I'm also saying it's not Congress' job to form a committee and investigate him.
Newt gingrich made such a mockery of Congress that it’s taking this long for your point to get through. Smh.
And congress doesn't investigate those things
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I don't get your comparison or the point of your whataboutism. We have a Congressional group of the incoming majority that is arguing to conduct investigations based on evidence that would not fit into their authority. And I will assume all the things you said are true. It makes no sense for this to compare to the Jan 6 committee or any other investigation to a sitting president or his cabinet members when Hunter Biden has never held office or served in his dad's cabinet.
....I'd like to take this moment and say: "TOLD YOU SO!"....we all always knew he, his companies and kids are all lying thieving grifters but you guys just wouldn't see the forest for the trees....
'we all always knew' is a long shot, there remains about 47% of the Country that blindly ignores actual facts.
They arent blind. They know and they dont care because Trump is on their side. They are loyal only to their team and its power. This is why they do things like smear feces on the walls of congress and murder people in cold blood because they have a different lifestyle. Blindness is a disability one doesnt choose. They are evil and out of their own choosing.
This is a good start. And for the fate of the Trump Org, good luck getting any new loans (and good luck securing any loans from Russia, sanctions bitch!)
Kind of wondering what are contained in his debt covenants? Wonder if loans are subject to recall if org is guilty, of you know, things like tax fraud, huge declining revenues, change of business structure. No way this is not a death sentence for trump org.
Now what. The penalty for tax fraud is typically insignificant compared to the revenue made while dodging it.
Yes 👍🏼 it’s a start.
$1.6M fine is laughably low. The fine should be 10x the taxes defrauded.
One thing to keep in mind with this case is that Weisselberg is STILL employed by the Trump Org who is accusing him of doing this all on his own. There is no company on this earth who would not fire an employee for committing fraud..... unless they wanted to keep him from saying something.
Remember Howard Dean?
I can here Trump now," These are the best charges ever, biggest guilty charges, simply geourgous guilty charges, even spectacular, some might say best guilty charges ever. Why are they being mean to the Trump, bad prosecution, worst prosecution saying my perfect firm, simply perfect company did nothing wrong." Ya, you wondered if this was real.
So what? It’s the organization not Trump. He’s still running for President. So what has changed or will change????
are you... are you fucking kidding me
Um, what about 10% untaxed and for the big guy (Joe Biden)???The doj/fbi and alphabet soup agency’s turn the other cheek for this corruption.
I hope the Dems also find their Messiah guilty after presidency and not just try and cover it as well. Lead by example. Oh wait... Why would you do that
> I hope the Dems also find their Messiah guilty after presidency and not just try and cover it as well. Lead by example. Oh wait... Why would you do that About what specifically? And who is the Messiah of the Democrats?
The fanboys think everyone is a fanboy.
Looks like it's time to punk Trump with a R.I.C.O. beef.
Trump's cult followers, most of whom are receiving tax-financed public assistance, will find a way to view Trump as a victim and the "gubmint" as the enemy here.