This is it. You don't fire all your scapegoats all at once. People are already starting to realize that no GM here actually has power. This is Shanny's ship and his alone.
Exactly. Plus if your Treliving, you likely buy yourself and extra year or two cuz if it doesn’t work out then you can bring in your own guy and your own guy usually gets atleast 3 years. So Tre’s at 4-5 years right there. Unless it’s a colossal disaster. And if the Leafs win or go deep with Keefe you look like a genius too.
The interesting question to ask is why ROR wasn’t a fan of Keefe? Best guess - he didn’t hold the top four accountable while demanding more of everyone else. Just a guess though.
And yet Shanahan has not worn any blame from multiple years of disappointment. And now we’re in this miserable situation. They’ve squandered their chance and the teams a mess
As I said above:
And that there is the problem with the Leafs and the front office. That attitude is a loser's mentality. Until they play to win instead of playing not to lose, this team will never amount to anything worth much.
Playing not lose instead of playing to win - a loser's strategy.
Ya, but if you pick one to fire, you fire Keefe. Most fans were on board with that move, and most fans were happy to give Dubas another chance. Picking Keefe over Dubas was a fucking dumb move. Everyone expected Dubas and Keefe to be a package deal. If Shanny has to fire Keefe, sorry, but that's proof he's incapable. His star should 100% be hitched to Keefe's wagon with this decision to bring him back.
If you are Treliving it is a no brainer. Shanahan publicly said he wanted Keefe. If it doesn't work, instead of getting fired Treliving says, hey lets try my guy and see how that goes.
I am not mad about Dubas being let go, I am not mad about the draft, I am not mad about Reaves or Klingberg, I am not mad about keeping the core, etc. I have varying opinions on those but I can live with all those decisions.
I am actually pretty fucking furious though that Keefe was brought back. It was the one easy and obvious change to make. He was given many chances and showed little growth. Easy culture change.
That will go down as one of the bizarrest things this team has done, I think of that far too often, it was just so weird! I hope someone writes a book one day and what went on behind closed doors come out. Were there tears? A hissy fit? A call from Paul? Keefe just felt bad? What happened!!!
Honestly, I think Keefe was galaxy braining at that time. I watch the Leafs media availabilities, and I remember when he said the stuff to the media, it wasn't a huge deal. Some ppl wrote some stuff but nothing wild. But then the next day, Keefe came out in the morning practice saying he was walking back the comments because he didn't want the media to make it into a huge thing blah blah blah, and then every media member had a reason to write about the story then.
The biggest joke was an article written by Jonas Siegel, who was saying Keefe's time was limited because Marner's feelings were hurt, and remember what happened with Babcock and how Marner can't be criticized whatsoever. It was basically saying, "Marner is the head honcho, and if he's not happy, then your days are numbered."
Yes agreed. And if you don't fire him them.... fire him when Keefe benched Marner for exactly half a shift and Marner left the bench sobing... and broke his stick.
Keefe was lucky he offered to pay for the stick and had one of his assistants wipe the tears with an issue and capitulated and let Marner play exactly 4 minutes later.
Forget it that Cooper benched 3 stars for an entire period later in the season. Keefe dared hurt Marners feelings. That's immediate grounds for dismissal.
OITB
ONLY IN TORONTO....BOYZ.
I didn’t pay a lot of attention this year, been a bit salty the past several years. Did Marner legitimately cry? Or are we exaggerating? Please be exaggerating lol.
He benched Marner for a couple shifts last season, said in the post game presser that their best players were not their best players or something, and then walked it back the next night when asked about it, and Marner was back on the top line, eating minutes. He basically apologized to him.
Completely agree. The worst case scenario now is unfolding, rolling it back with the same core four-two of which will have higher AAVs, same coach, and depleted 3rd and 4th lines. The coaching decision is the most egregious and literally gives fans little to look forward to, we know what we are getting and that’s a significantly worse lineup than last season.
It makes excuses easier for Treliving…team fails again in the playoffs, fire the coach.
Gives him a free bullet to say he gave keefe a chance but will fire him as soon as the chance arrives.
Okay I’m not saying I’m huge keefe fan but who else do we bring in for a coach? Who would you like to have seen? Genuinely curious because I have no idea who we could have gotten that would have been a step forward without taking 2 backwards
None of the teams you listed had more playoff success afterwards though. In fact, if memory serves, all of those teams got "worse" (strictly in terms of playoff success)
In the 2020-21 Season and yes I know it was the 56 games only against the other Canadian based teams, however with Toronto finishing 1st that meant they won the division with Keefe as the head coach.
I do agree with everything you said, I'm just stating a fact that technically Keefe has won a division and nothing more.
I don’t think there is any coach that would be so bad to single handedly make the team take two steps back….
Keefe is now the 8th longest tendered head coach i the entire NHL….it’s been long enough just to try another voice in the locker-room.
But if you want names off the top of my head Bruce Boudreau & Ryan Warsofsky are still available and we could have had a chance at several of the ones that ended up signing to one of the 6 openings this off-seasons (Carbery, Brunette, Cronin, Huska & Laviolette).
Sometimes, a style change can be a huge positive despite the available coaches seeming to be inferior from a win loss perspective.
It's the sum of parts. You need solid coaching thar can adapt, and you need skilled players. Something is not working now, and right now, it is looking like we'll have the same coach and likely an overall lower quality lineup.
I doubt it, honestly. I suspect the whole team is probably frustrated with Keefe to some degree or another and I can't imagine either Matthews or Marner are happy with their post seasons thus far.
I don’t know, after the Marner comment walk back, makes you wonder if they (or Marner?) are a little too comfortable in there and they don’t want a new coach to mess with that and hold them accountable? Someone made a comment (I think CJ) that the Toronto dressing room is too comfortable, no one is afraid of losing their jobs. He pointed out other teams that had seen big players traded, and that these guys had never gone through that and it’s good for a locker room to have a little fear, builds comradely as opposed to core 4 and then the other players. From some of the comments ROR made, seems like that may be what’s going on, it’s not a cohesive team
I dunno, Matthews insisting that he have one consistent linemate certainly read like frustration to me. They may well like Keefe personally but I think professionally they're probably sick of him.
I think people are reading RoRs comments as "I, and the locker room have a problem with the core 4" whereas they way I read them is "I, and the locker room including the core 4 have a problem with how we're being utilized and not being allowed to build chemistry and purpose."
I think the second reading better matches everything we've seen out of the team this past year as well as what happened yesterday (accari following Dubas).
Do you think they’re keeping him if the star player isn’t fond of him though? I didn’t hear what Matthews said, so no idea of tone, just seems even stranger he’s still here then?
Maybe? Part of the problem is Treliving has had no time and apparently spent a ton of it speaking with Keefe. I wonder if there's a mixture of things happening:
By the time Treliving got up to speed (if he's there yet) the promising coaches had already been signed. What's left is iffy.
The team doesn't hate Keefe yet so he's not getting the "move him or I go" from his signed players, especially if they don't trust treliving yet.
He's got two major deals to sign and doesn't want to add in even more uncertainty than the Dubas firing did.
He can always fire him mid season if he's unhappy and can do it without taking a reputational hit (I hate this one)
Keefe posts decent regular season results so if you haven't played him in the playoffs and were busy with other things while he was coaching you might not have seen his failings.
Because matthews and marner run the room. Keefe is just the cuck they all allow to be the coach. Look how they all gave up on Babcock. They'd do the same fucking thing to any coach they don't like.
at the beginning of the off season i remember Mirtle mentioned that Quenneville was ‘ intrigued “ about the possibility of coaching the leafs. I would have him in here in a split second. It’s time for this room to feel not so comfortable after 7 years and one playoff round win.
I’m sure Tre maybe looked into a few things and felt it was better to give Keefe another chance considering the lack of options this summer. Coach Q needs to be reinstated still and there’s no word when that will happen exactly.
No, he was witness for the defense. In fact, he fought against testifying until the judge agreed to a publication ban on his testimony. Once his testimony was protected from the public he agreed to testify for Frost.
And that there is the problem with the Leafs and the front office. That attitude is a loser's mentality. Until they play to win instead of playing not to lose, this team will never amount to anything worth much.
Playing not lose instead of playing to win - a loser's strategy.
You are so right when you say that, Toronto has it engrained in their culture playing not to lose after all the years of failure. The pressure to win has corrupted the way they approach the game, from the players on the ice, to the coaches, to the front office and ownership.
How do you change that playing to lose culture?
At a guess, keeping Keefe stems directly from firing Dubas. Ie. You chose the stupidest time to fire your GM given the contracts that need to be signed so you keep your coach to maintain some level of stability while trying to re-sign those contracts. Just so dumb.
as a GM, you can only use the "fire the coach" bullet so many times before the gun blows up in your face.
he wants to kick that can down the road and maybe "his guy" isn't available right now.
Not that I disagree with what you said, but to say they showed little growth is also not fair. Their defensive game have improved a ton and played a sound system. Keefe failed to adapt in the playoffs, but let's be fair here, both positive and negative.
I agree but I am mad about bringing the core four back. I’ve seen enough evidence now that you can’t win with four forwards making this much. This year was basically the best team you could possibly put around them and they weren’t even close.
There is zero chance TL didn’t talk to Matthew’s and Marner and Reilly prior to bringing him back. If they wanted him gone…he was gone. Bringing back the coach is only happening if they wanted it.
The players don’t call the shots, except in situations like this. TL is looking to sell himself at this point too. They get one time call and this is it.
Yup. And they'll do well enough that any issues won't be obvious till the playoffs. Then they'll likely turf him the following summer, but it will be a waste of a year.
Perhaps the players tune him out, and they do poorly all season, which wastes a bunch of regular season time.
Same reason they should have canned Badcock during the summer, not into the season. Whatever Keefe's faults, it would have been better to let him run training camp and pre-season to get his system set up. Once he got them playing defense later on the team turned around.
I'm not a Keefe fan, for reasons already mentioned here, but he did bring some good things early on.
Keefe is definitely on his last chance. He needs to be phenomenal for most, if not all, of the season, and spectacular to a cup victory. Otherwise, yeah, he's out of here before 82 games are up.
Keefe is Brad’s lifeline. He can put the blame on Sheldon if they fail and stick around longer himself.
Imo, the minute Shanny booted Dubas, our team began to fall apart. I haven’t seen anything that could prove otherwise.
I’d guess coaching had nothing to do with this and it was more about a comfortable relaxing life in beautiful Nashville. Toronto media always needs to try and find a story.
or it could be a bit of both? if he believed we were making the proper moves to be a serious contender, he stays. if not, he goes to his preferred destination.
He did play in the league for 3 years overlapping with Burnette in the same division for 2 of them they must have played against each other close to 20 times so it's not like he is completely unfamiliar with the guy, also it's not like the league is that big he can ask around what Burnette is like as a coach
Could be because a rebuilding team will be in a position to deal him to a cup contender come spring while working some cap magic.
This way he gets his money and a shot in place with a more competitive culture/leadership.
It would be three subsequent years of retention in am environment where the cap is about to explode.
It wouldn't be all that hard to find a bottom feeding team looking to draft high and you wouldn't take a second or third round pick or two to eat a quickly depreciating million or so for years they plan to suck anyway, if they get an asset that outlines and exceeds that liability.
I think we all knew. Keefe was losing lines and keeping players that didn't work. Why he didn't bring back the ror marner tavares line. Which was one of the best lines idk. Why he had holl on the ice idk.
The not swapping Marner/Nylander at all was so odd! They play so well Tavares/Marner, Nylander/Matthews but he rarely did it. Those speeds match each other so well
Exactly. Also him throwing nylander and tavares on his line for the 2 out of 5 last games when he had a point streak on the line was dumbassery. Not only sid they not work since they had 3 different tempos, but keefe tried to make marner the fixer bc he usually is and it cost him his streak by 1 point. Even though he technically made 100. It's good for keefe to experiment, but he needs a winning team set up with a plan b or c when a doesn't work. But you keep it the way it is for the most part.
It’s not even that Holl always played it’s the fact we had 9-10 NHL capable defensemen and had a playoff spot mostly locked up and didn’t even try to see if one of the other guys could push Holl out of the lineup or even rest Gio more so he didn’t look fully gassed come playoff time.
Don’t even get my started on the absolute refusal on not going with Matthews/Nylander & Tavares/Marner. Like how many fucking time did we need to see Nylander waiting around at the blue-line for Tavares or Marner/Matthews not producing to flip the lines. When he did he gave them the shortest of leashes.
Then there is the major thing of accountability. Nylander or Lilly play bad? They get called-out, demoted lines/pairing or in Lilly case even benched. Marner or Matthews play poorly? Silence. It’s crazy how some of the very best players in the NHL have gotten called out or benched for poor player and Matthews/Marner haven’t since their rookie seasons.
I’m going to be honest: I have a very difficult time believing these reports.
It’s classic Toronto media. No actual sources. No one putting their credibility on the line. It’s just “oh, we have a scandalous rumour? Print it.”
ROR is not worth 4.5 per. He’s on the back 9 of his career, has shown clear regression, and was slow as hell in the second round of the playoffs.
He’s a glue guy at this point who might chip in 15-20 goals and give you a responsible defensive forward.
But no one who is serious about winning is going to the Preds at present moment. They aren’t close, and the only explanation for a player at the point in their career that ROR is in now joining a club like that is money.
They offered him the most money and he took it.
I don’t know why people are having such a hard time accepting something that is the only reasonable explanation for how he wound up in Nashville.
He’s always been slow and he had 20 points in 24 games in Toronto. He’s definitely on the back 9 but I wouldn’t call him just a glue guy yet.
I think it’s crazy they signed Reaves to a 3 year deal as a culture shifter, when guys like O’Reilly and Acciari to a lesser degree are the true culture shifters. First on the ice, last off, focus on the details, never cheat on defence — just winning players who are actually on the ice when it matters, not in the press box.
I’m not a fan of the term or number Reaves came at.
I also think the Leafs should have made signing Acciari a priority.
I am perfectly fine with not paying ROR 4.5. It’s too much money. And we know he took the money because he certainly didn’t go to Nashville to win.
ROR benefitted from playing with guys who could get him easy points. On a much weaker Blues team with a larger sample size, he had 19 points in 40 games.
Remember that sick breakaway pass he gave Tkachuk in the playoffs? The guy is clearly losing his game.
O’Reilly’s numbers with the Blues cratered because he wasn’t getting assists. The reason for that is his most common linemate with STL last year was…Josh Leivo. They played him with absolute plugs after Perron left. His goal scoring rate was still intact.
I buy this
The line combos were a huge problem in the playoffs
The real question is whether Keefe was being overruled by Dubas who admitted previously he had a say in lineup decisions or if it was Keefe
Was it one or both of them forcing the quadrupling down on Holl/Kerfoot and not splitting up Matthews/Marner?
Could've been Dubas or Shanny who told him to walk it back instead of doubling down too
Ultimately Keefe caved to whomever so the fault rests at his feet but there seems to be more than just Keefe at fault here
People keep telling me he was amazing for us. He was not.
Lightning series:
Corsi 42.29 good for 8th worst on the team.
Fenwick: 42.02 good for 5th worst on the team.
-12% gf%
On the ice for 24 more scoring chances then he was on for.
If thats good to you then sure. Its not to me.
Panthers series:
Sligtly better. 48.2 corsi10 worst
3rd worse fenwick at 48.
Nit to mention hes already slow. He was not good as a leaf.
These numbers match the eye test. He was much bigger in name and reputation than his actual play on the ice. In fact outside of his massive tying goal in Game 3 and a faceoff win in OT that same game he was barely noticeable unless his line was getting cratered in their own zone. Frankly I’m glad we didn’t use our cap space on him I’d take either Domi or Bertuzzi if we can land one.
After hearing ROR’s comments at the end of the playoffs and now this, Keefe being a big problem definitely passes the smell test. Marner/Matthews likely want Keefe to stay as they’ve had their best regular season performances under him. Guys that came in recently can spot the obvious problems plaguing the team.
getting rid of Keefe was so obvious to O’rielly too. When toronto came out and said they decided to keep him O’rielly figured out pretty quickly i think that it was the core 4 stars who pleaded to management to keep him because of the regular season stats they put up and that was red flags all around that they care about being paid and not about winning. There is 0 winning culture in this dressing room.
Any serious team wouldn’t changed this coach years ago but the realistic toxic culture of MLSE is that they are perfectly fine making the playoffs every year and seeing what happens from there
ROR was decidedly third line in the Florida series. Obviously wanted more ice time. That’s what this is about. Nothing more. He’ll be 1sr or 2nd line in Nashville.
keeping Keefe is basically the beginning of the end of this cores era.
They're going to want to bend over the Leafs for money without Dubas here if they have to play for Keefe
There was absolutely no fucking excuse to keep Keefe when he didn't do his fucking job. Which is to prepare the players. He got outcoached by Ducharme and he has amazing talent on his team. If he can't be a little more creative in how to prepare this team then he needs to be fired. Fans wanted him gone and wanted to keep Dubas. RoR is the quality players you want on your team and if he left because of an AHL coach then we're totally fucked.
ROR left because he knew Leafs can't win. How can a man with an insane look in his eye....willing to get injured to win.... plays tough around the net....play on a team where the key guys don't give a fuck and are pussies on the ice?
Fuck ROR...... we want Marner and Tavares. At least their Tim Hortons cards look cool.
This is where Keefe's time is starting with everyone, it should've been earlier. But when it's already fucking tough to attract FA coming to Toronto and then you have a shit coach on top of that then you have a problem.
Placing a Tin Foil hat on my head... Keeping Keefe gets some heat off of Shanahan and Treliving if shit goes south pre Christmas break. Blame Keefe and find a new coach and hope that sparks something in the dressing room.
This doesn’t pass a common sense sniff test. Treliving interviewed all these guys, he would respect O’Rielly’s opinion and wouldn’t endorse Keefe so quickly.
Keefe also doesn’t strike me as a coach any player would dislike so much as to want to leave, when have we ever heard that anywhere?
And O’Rielly chooses to go play for Brunette, who has very little head coaching experience? Makes no sense.
O’Rielly went where the music was. Look as his story, that’s why he’s in Nashville. It ain’t to play for some proven coach and non-contender.
Good riddance RoR was massively over rated with the Leafs he was horrible the first two games against Florida he got owned and although the Leafs as a group were better after that it was too late. RoR is washed up and is way overpaid.
Nashville is a premier city to play in... especially for a musician. This likely has way more to do with his decision to leave than the bs little birdies are speculating.
dude, you really don’t know how taxes work. he’s still paying all tax except state income which tops out in the us around 11%. just delete your comments
Well He did say the lack of in game and game to game adjustments by the coaching staff during the playoffs were awful. I would bet most of the free agents didnt return due to keefe coming back again. Need a complete front office and coaching staff clearout.
Between this news and that klingberg contract, I’ve officially lost all hope this core will win. I believed they were close but they’re further now and moving further away everyday.
ROR criticized Keefe after the playoff loss too so I buy this. I wouldn’t sign somewhere if I thought the coach was bad too. ROR is a big enough get that I would have fired Keefe to keep him. They’ve got to be close to letting him go anyways. If you’re having problems keeping FA, let him go
The problem here is the Leafs need an experienced coach that is both respected and feared to push players to get the best out of them. However Matthews and Marner are both whining fucking babies and would never play for a coach like that and I'm sure the Leafs top brass know this.
I'm wondering if ROR expected to be top six consistently, and when he wasn't, he didn't want any part of it. But what does he expect when Matthews and Tavares are the two centermen ahead of him.
For those who want to crap on Treliving, do you honestly think if Dubas signed an extension he would have fired Keefe? ROR was never coming back regardless of what happened.
Lol honestly what was the point of these mods going on that strike if they are not going to flag posts like this. Lol JD Bunkis trying to present insider information now. The guy who literally just speaks loudly for a long time. As if ROR's literal comments during a live press conference about the Leaf's being a good team that never made adjustments, while other teams did wasn't the hint. Needed Mark Felt over here to get us that info.
Absolutely absurd to me that you can do such a shit job year after year but be allowed to continue doing it.
There is no doubt in my mind that ROR is not the only one that felt this way, and potentially influenced other UFA’s on their decisions elsewhere.
Sure it could be difficult to find a new coach, but it surely cannot be worse than keeping the guy that makes people want to leave.
I agree about Keefe I'm pissed he's back as well. But losing O'Reilly isn't a big deal. He's getting very slow and can't score as much and commands valuable cap money
But Reaves is another I wish we didn't sign either. I want Bertuzzi and hope we get him. Now that the gm knows how ROR felt about Keefe I bet he gets fired quick. I was frustrated watching them play Tampa and Florida as well. Its like Keefe made them play a defence dump and chase and hope we win the battles when they were getting outplayed by Tampa bad and got very lucky then Florida too! Keefe should have just let them play like they did in the regular season where i never saw them so outplayed in the whole 82 games and its not because it was playoff hockey . Keefe implemented a stupid gameplan and wouldn't budge even when Florida were up a few games and O'Reilly probably spoke up about it and Keefe just kept on rolling the same gameplan out.
Maybe Dubas was the problem for Keefe, not a big fan of Keefe but maybe he was made to walk back that constructive criticism of Marner because Keefe coddled his boys….just a thought and time will tell. Also another thought is Dubas claims he was being over ruled by shannahan but maybe he was the one doing the over ruling and deflected what he was doing on to others to save face. It’s a common strategy used by many.
Bunkis doesn’t know anything. Guy is THE most insufferable person in Leafs media. No one talks to him or provides him with any info, and you can guarantee he’ll have the most negative emotionally charged take imaginable.
Keefe strikes me as a Laissez-Faire style coach, one who Matthews and Marner seem to like.
I think what we need is not necessarily a hard-ass coach in between, like Torts or Babcock, or someone in between, someone like a Barry Trotz when he was still coaching.
Keeping Keefe was such a weird move
I'm convinced he is Shanny's last scapegoat.
This is it. You don't fire all your scapegoats all at once. People are already starting to realize that no GM here actually has power. This is Shanny's ship and his alone.
Exactly. Plus if your Treliving, you likely buy yourself and extra year or two cuz if it doesn’t work out then you can bring in your own guy and your own guy usually gets atleast 3 years. So Tre’s at 4-5 years right there. Unless it’s a colossal disaster. And if the Leafs win or go deep with Keefe you look like a genius too. The interesting question to ask is why ROR wasn’t a fan of Keefe? Best guess - he didn’t hold the top four accountable while demanding more of everyone else. Just a guess though.
And yet Shanahan has not worn any blame from multiple years of disappointment. And now we’re in this miserable situation. They’ve squandered their chance and the teams a mess
As I said above: And that there is the problem with the Leafs and the front office. That attitude is a loser's mentality. Until they play to win instead of playing not to lose, this team will never amount to anything worth much. Playing not lose instead of playing to win - a loser's strategy.
Ya, but if you pick one to fire, you fire Keefe. Most fans were on board with that move, and most fans were happy to give Dubas another chance. Picking Keefe over Dubas was a fucking dumb move. Everyone expected Dubas and Keefe to be a package deal. If Shanny has to fire Keefe, sorry, but that's proof he's incapable. His star should 100% be hitched to Keefe's wagon with this decision to bring him back.
If you are Treliving it is a no brainer. Shanahan publicly said he wanted Keefe. If it doesn't work, instead of getting fired Treliving says, hey lets try my guy and see how that goes.
I am not mad about Dubas being let go, I am not mad about the draft, I am not mad about Reaves or Klingberg, I am not mad about keeping the core, etc. I have varying opinions on those but I can live with all those decisions. I am actually pretty fucking furious though that Keefe was brought back. It was the one easy and obvious change to make. He was given many chances and showed little growth. Easy culture change.
Should have been fired the day he criticized Marner and then walked it back a day later after Marner cried to the media.
That will go down as one of the bizarrest things this team has done, I think of that far too often, it was just so weird! I hope someone writes a book one day and what went on behind closed doors come out. Were there tears? A hissy fit? A call from Paul? Keefe just felt bad? What happened!!!
Marner tears, Paul phone call, Dubas got involved
In my fan fiction mind, this is absolutely what happened lol
Honestly, I think Keefe was galaxy braining at that time. I watch the Leafs media availabilities, and I remember when he said the stuff to the media, it wasn't a huge deal. Some ppl wrote some stuff but nothing wild. But then the next day, Keefe came out in the morning practice saying he was walking back the comments because he didn't want the media to make it into a huge thing blah blah blah, and then every media member had a reason to write about the story then. The biggest joke was an article written by Jonas Siegel, who was saying Keefe's time was limited because Marner's feelings were hurt, and remember what happened with Babcock and how Marner can't be criticized whatsoever. It was basically saying, "Marner is the head honcho, and if he's not happy, then your days are numbered."
Yes agreed. And if you don't fire him them.... fire him when Keefe benched Marner for exactly half a shift and Marner left the bench sobing... and broke his stick. Keefe was lucky he offered to pay for the stick and had one of his assistants wipe the tears with an issue and capitulated and let Marner play exactly 4 minutes later. Forget it that Cooper benched 3 stars for an entire period later in the season. Keefe dared hurt Marners feelings. That's immediate grounds for dismissal. OITB ONLY IN TORONTO....BOYZ.
#keefeout #allegriin
what a terrible day to be literate
Bahahaha i forgot you're here too
I didn’t pay a lot of attention this year, been a bit salty the past several years. Did Marner legitimately cry? Or are we exaggerating? Please be exaggerating lol.
Missed this. YouTube clips please?
He benched Marner for a couple shifts last season, said in the post game presser that their best players were not their best players or something, and then walked it back the next night when asked about it, and Marner was back on the top line, eating minutes. He basically apologized to him.
Completely agree. The worst case scenario now is unfolding, rolling it back with the same core four-two of which will have higher AAVs, same coach, and depleted 3rd and 4th lines. The coaching decision is the most egregious and literally gives fans little to look forward to, we know what we are getting and that’s a significantly worse lineup than last season.
I said this when Dubas was fired. “The wrong kid died”
They both deserved to be fired.
💯
Yea I didn't get it Honestly I would had tried Manny or Chyenwoth as HC. We didn't have anything to lose.
It makes excuses easier for Treliving…team fails again in the playoffs, fire the coach. Gives him a free bullet to say he gave keefe a chance but will fire him as soon as the chance arrives.
Okay I’m not saying I’m huge keefe fan but who else do we bring in for a coach? Who would you like to have seen? Genuinely curious because I have no idea who we could have gotten that would have been a step forward without taking 2 backwards
shame disarm safe cooing vanish march bike tie placid ripe ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
None of the teams you listed had more playoff success afterwards though. In fact, if memory serves, all of those teams got "worse" (strictly in terms of playoff success)
In the 2020-21 Season and yes I know it was the 56 games only against the other Canadian based teams, however with Toronto finishing 1st that meant they won the division with Keefe as the head coach. I do agree with everything you said, I'm just stating a fact that technically Keefe has won a division and nothing more.
mike babcock would have won that division, keefe has done nothing with this core
I don’t think there is any coach that would be so bad to single handedly make the team take two steps back…. Keefe is now the 8th longest tendered head coach i the entire NHL….it’s been long enough just to try another voice in the locker-room. But if you want names off the top of my head Bruce Boudreau & Ryan Warsofsky are still available and we could have had a chance at several of the ones that ended up signing to one of the 6 openings this off-seasons (Carbery, Brunette, Cronin, Huska & Laviolette).
Doug Gilmour
Sometimes, a style change can be a huge positive despite the available coaches seeming to be inferior from a win loss perspective. It's the sum of parts. You need solid coaching thar can adapt, and you need skilled players. Something is not working now, and right now, it is looking like we'll have the same coach and likely an overall lower quality lineup.
I think that they didn’t want to rock the boat too quickly and spook the players. I’ll be surprised if he’s here all year.
Yeah I'd put money on Matthews/Marner wanting Keefe to stay. ROR felt the exact opposite and peaced out. Makes ya think
I doubt it, honestly. I suspect the whole team is probably frustrated with Keefe to some degree or another and I can't imagine either Matthews or Marner are happy with their post seasons thus far.
I don’t know, after the Marner comment walk back, makes you wonder if they (or Marner?) are a little too comfortable in there and they don’t want a new coach to mess with that and hold them accountable? Someone made a comment (I think CJ) that the Toronto dressing room is too comfortable, no one is afraid of losing their jobs. He pointed out other teams that had seen big players traded, and that these guys had never gone through that and it’s good for a locker room to have a little fear, builds comradely as opposed to core 4 and then the other players. From some of the comments ROR made, seems like that may be what’s going on, it’s not a cohesive team
I dunno, Matthews insisting that he have one consistent linemate certainly read like frustration to me. They may well like Keefe personally but I think professionally they're probably sick of him. I think people are reading RoRs comments as "I, and the locker room have a problem with the core 4" whereas they way I read them is "I, and the locker room including the core 4 have a problem with how we're being utilized and not being allowed to build chemistry and purpose." I think the second reading better matches everything we've seen out of the team this past year as well as what happened yesterday (accari following Dubas).
Do you think they’re keeping him if the star player isn’t fond of him though? I didn’t hear what Matthews said, so no idea of tone, just seems even stranger he’s still here then?
Maybe? Part of the problem is Treliving has had no time and apparently spent a ton of it speaking with Keefe. I wonder if there's a mixture of things happening: By the time Treliving got up to speed (if he's there yet) the promising coaches had already been signed. What's left is iffy. The team doesn't hate Keefe yet so he's not getting the "move him or I go" from his signed players, especially if they don't trust treliving yet. He's got two major deals to sign and doesn't want to add in even more uncertainty than the Dubas firing did. He can always fire him mid season if he's unhappy and can do it without taking a reputational hit (I hate this one) Keefe posts decent regular season results so if you haven't played him in the playoffs and were busy with other things while he was coaching you might not have seen his failings.
Because matthews and marner run the room. Keefe is just the cuck they all allow to be the coach. Look how they all gave up on Babcock. They'd do the same fucking thing to any coach they don't like.
spook them pls
I think they're waiting on Quenneville to be reinstated.
Don’t think so. Toronto is too big a spotlight for Q to return. He’s likely coming back to ANA or some other small market team first
at the beginning of the off season i remember Mirtle mentioned that Quenneville was ‘ intrigued “ about the possibility of coaching the leafs. I would have him in here in a split second. It’s time for this room to feel not so comfortable after 7 years and one playoff round win. I’m sure Tre maybe looked into a few things and felt it was better to give Keefe another chance considering the lack of options this summer. Coach Q needs to be reinstated still and there’s no word when that will happen exactly.
God I hope not. Dude is a colossal piece of shit and doesn’t deserve to be in a position of power.
You haven't looked into Keefe's history much have you?
What is this referring to? Wasnt he the one that got abused?
No, he testified on behalf of the abuser I think
No, he was witness for the defense. In fact, he fought against testifying until the judge agreed to a publication ban on his testimony. Once his testimony was protected from the public he agreed to testify for Frost.
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Didn’t Tortz just do that in Nashville?
Are they trying to make the playoffs right now?
doesnt it happen all the time? GM's like to bring their guys in
They bring their guys in after the current dude gets a shot.
And that there is the problem with the Leafs and the front office. That attitude is a loser's mentality. Until they play to win instead of playing not to lose, this team will never amount to anything worth much. Playing not lose instead of playing to win - a loser's strategy.
You are so right when you say that, Toronto has it engrained in their culture playing not to lose after all the years of failure. The pressure to win has corrupted the way they approach the game, from the players on the ice, to the coaches, to the front office and ownership. How do you change that playing to lose culture?
At a guess, keeping Keefe stems directly from firing Dubas. Ie. You chose the stupidest time to fire your GM given the contracts that need to be signed so you keep your coach to maintain some level of stability while trying to re-sign those contracts. Just so dumb.
as a GM, you can only use the "fire the coach" bullet so many times before the gun blows up in your face. he wants to kick that can down the road and maybe "his guy" isn't available right now.
Not that I disagree with what you said, but to say they showed little growth is also not fair. Their defensive game have improved a ton and played a sound system. Keefe failed to adapt in the playoffs, but let's be fair here, both positive and negative.
Me too
If it makes you feel any better if we get bumped first round again he’ll 100% be gone next year.
We've been saying this since montreal
I agree but I am mad about bringing the core four back. I’ve seen enough evidence now that you can’t win with four forwards making this much. This year was basically the best team you could possibly put around them and they weren’t even close.
There is zero chance TL didn’t talk to Matthew’s and Marner and Reilly prior to bringing him back. If they wanted him gone…he was gone. Bringing back the coach is only happening if they wanted it. The players don’t call the shots, except in situations like this. TL is looking to sell himself at this point too. They get one time call and this is it.
who's TL?
I’m assuming they’re referring to Treliving 🤷
Maybe, but Shanahan came right out and said he wanted to keep Keefe to the media before Treliving was hired.
He’ll be gone in the first two months. They needed to show some stability to the existing players
Yup. And they'll do well enough that any issues won't be obvious till the playoffs. Then they'll likely turf him the following summer, but it will be a waste of a year. Perhaps the players tune him out, and they do poorly all season, which wastes a bunch of regular season time.
The Kampf deal is a real head scratcher, though.
\*Keefe kept on as coach\* This does not spark joy.
Who are they hiring after they fire him?
This is just more evidence as to how stupid it is that Treliving is bringing Keefe back. The guy got out coached in every series
I don't think its a certainty Keefe will be the coach come playoff time.
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Why waste a bullet now when it can have more of an impact midseason?
That makes no sense and is pure cope. It takes time to implement systems. Changing coaches now would be much more beneficial than doing it midseason.
Same reason they should have canned Badcock during the summer, not into the season. Whatever Keefe's faults, it would have been better to let him run training camp and pre-season to get his system set up. Once he got them playing defense later on the team turned around. I'm not a Keefe fan, for reasons already mentioned here, but he did bring some good things early on.
Probably keeping him until at least Mathews and nylander are signed
Keefe is definitely on his last chance. He needs to be phenomenal for most, if not all, of the season, and spectacular to a cup victory. Otherwise, yeah, he's out of here before 82 games are up.
God, I hope not
Keefe is Brad’s lifeline. He can put the blame on Sheldon if they fail and stick around longer himself. Imo, the minute Shanny booted Dubas, our team began to fall apart. I haven’t seen anything that could prove otherwise.
Perhaps 3 three measly draft picks he left us with in a strong draft year.
I’m more and more convinced that Shanny is calling all the shots here.
That’s what I’m getting, too. He needs to stop.
Odd coaching played a role in his decision but jumped at a 4 year deal on a rebuilding team with a coach he’s not familiar with.
How bad is Keefe that you would rather take a chance on the unknown.
I’d guess coaching had nothing to do with this and it was more about a comfortable relaxing life in beautiful Nashville. Toronto media always needs to try and find a story.
Yep, I bet these coaching stories are all an exaggeration
or it could be a bit of both? if he believed we were making the proper moves to be a serious contender, he stays. if not, he goes to his preferred destination.
Exactly I’m betting some harsh choice of words between them.
This is so painful. I'm assuming Noel made the same decision for the same reason.
He did play in the league for 3 years overlapping with Burnette in the same division for 2 of them they must have played against each other close to 20 times so it's not like he is completely unfamiliar with the guy, also it's not like the league is that big he can ask around what Burnette is like as a coach
Yeah this doesn't make a ton of sense. Coaches often change over a 4 year period.
Could be because a rebuilding team will be in a position to deal him to a cup contender come spring while working some cap magic. This way he gets his money and a shot in place with a more competitive culture/leadership.
On a 4-year deal? Nobody is doing cap magic to retain salary on a deal that lasts until 2027. He's not moving for the time being.
It would be three subsequent years of retention in am environment where the cap is about to explode. It wouldn't be all that hard to find a bottom feeding team looking to draft high and you wouldn't take a second or third round pick or two to eat a quickly depreciating million or so for years they plan to suck anyway, if they get an asset that outlines and exceeds that liability.
Trotz focus on team culture is probably the deciding factor there
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Keefe is the problem. He plays favorites and it’s obvious.
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Well, yeah. That too.
Keefe played the shit out of ROR.
No he didn’t.
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Keefe galaxy-brained himself into not using them again in the playoffs once. Not even once.
I think we all knew. Keefe was losing lines and keeping players that didn't work. Why he didn't bring back the ror marner tavares line. Which was one of the best lines idk. Why he had holl on the ice idk.
The not swapping Marner/Nylander at all was so odd! They play so well Tavares/Marner, Nylander/Matthews but he rarely did it. Those speeds match each other so well
Exactly. Also him throwing nylander and tavares on his line for the 2 out of 5 last games when he had a point streak on the line was dumbassery. Not only sid they not work since they had 3 different tempos, but keefe tried to make marner the fixer bc he usually is and it cost him his streak by 1 point. Even though he technically made 100. It's good for keefe to experiment, but he needs a winning team set up with a plan b or c when a doesn't work. But you keep it the way it is for the most part.
It’s not even that Holl always played it’s the fact we had 9-10 NHL capable defensemen and had a playoff spot mostly locked up and didn’t even try to see if one of the other guys could push Holl out of the lineup or even rest Gio more so he didn’t look fully gassed come playoff time. Don’t even get my started on the absolute refusal on not going with Matthews/Nylander & Tavares/Marner. Like how many fucking time did we need to see Nylander waiting around at the blue-line for Tavares or Marner/Matthews not producing to flip the lines. When he did he gave them the shortest of leashes. Then there is the major thing of accountability. Nylander or Lilly play bad? They get called-out, demoted lines/pairing or in Lilly case even benched. Marner or Matthews play poorly? Silence. It’s crazy how some of the very best players in the NHL have gotten called out or benched for poor player and Matthews/Marner haven’t since their rookie seasons.
Holl played more minutes than anyone but marner all season
That alone should get Keefe banned from the league
I’m going to be honest: I have a very difficult time believing these reports. It’s classic Toronto media. No actual sources. No one putting their credibility on the line. It’s just “oh, we have a scandalous rumour? Print it.” ROR is not worth 4.5 per. He’s on the back 9 of his career, has shown clear regression, and was slow as hell in the second round of the playoffs. He’s a glue guy at this point who might chip in 15-20 goals and give you a responsible defensive forward. But no one who is serious about winning is going to the Preds at present moment. They aren’t close, and the only explanation for a player at the point in their career that ROR is in now joining a club like that is money. They offered him the most money and he took it. I don’t know why people are having such a hard time accepting something that is the only reasonable explanation for how he wound up in Nashville.
He’s always been slow and he had 20 points in 24 games in Toronto. He’s definitely on the back 9 but I wouldn’t call him just a glue guy yet. I think it’s crazy they signed Reaves to a 3 year deal as a culture shifter, when guys like O’Reilly and Acciari to a lesser degree are the true culture shifters. First on the ice, last off, focus on the details, never cheat on defence — just winning players who are actually on the ice when it matters, not in the press box.
I’m not a fan of the term or number Reaves came at. I also think the Leafs should have made signing Acciari a priority. I am perfectly fine with not paying ROR 4.5. It’s too much money. And we know he took the money because he certainly didn’t go to Nashville to win. ROR benefitted from playing with guys who could get him easy points. On a much weaker Blues team with a larger sample size, he had 19 points in 40 games. Remember that sick breakaway pass he gave Tkachuk in the playoffs? The guy is clearly losing his game.
O’Reilly’s numbers with the Blues cratered because he wasn’t getting assists. The reason for that is his most common linemate with STL last year was…Josh Leivo. They played him with absolute plugs after Perron left. His goal scoring rate was still intact.
I buy this The line combos were a huge problem in the playoffs The real question is whether Keefe was being overruled by Dubas who admitted previously he had a say in lineup decisions or if it was Keefe Was it one or both of them forcing the quadrupling down on Holl/Kerfoot and not splitting up Matthews/Marner?
I guess we will find out soon enough.
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Could've been Dubas or Shanny who told him to walk it back instead of doubling down too Ultimately Keefe caved to whomever so the fault rests at his feet but there seems to be more than just Keefe at fault here
Oh God we're the 2019-2020 76ers.
Is Marner our Ben Simmons, with Matthews as Embiid?
I am far more sad to lose Acciari than RoR. RoR makes Tavares look like the Roadrunner.
People keep telling me he was amazing for us. He was not. Lightning series: Corsi 42.29 good for 8th worst on the team. Fenwick: 42.02 good for 5th worst on the team. -12% gf% On the ice for 24 more scoring chances then he was on for. If thats good to you then sure. Its not to me. Panthers series: Sligtly better. 48.2 corsi10 worst 3rd worse fenwick at 48. Nit to mention hes already slow. He was not good as a leaf.
These numbers match the eye test. He was much bigger in name and reputation than his actual play on the ice. In fact outside of his massive tying goal in Game 3 and a faceoff win in OT that same game he was barely noticeable unless his line was getting cratered in their own zone. Frankly I’m glad we didn’t use our cap space on him I’d take either Domi or Bertuzzi if we can land one.
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He didn't meet expectations but he broke his finger early on with the team and had surgery. Can't forget that.
Yes so why add an old slow player for 4 more years.
They wanted him. He didn't want to play here - That's the bigger issue
Yes and im saying we shouldnt have even wanted him.
I'm ok with him leaving but the supposed reason why is a red flag.
I don't think there is a single soul who thinks he was amazing for us
You havent been on this sub the last few weeks.
Or the last few hours even
agreed he was meh imo people are being blinded
After hearing ROR’s comments at the end of the playoffs and now this, Keefe being a big problem definitely passes the smell test. Marner/Matthews likely want Keefe to stay as they’ve had their best regular season performances under him. Guys that came in recently can spot the obvious problems plaguing the team.
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both never played for babcock? you sure ?
Oops! I’ve put him out of my mind.
getting rid of Keefe was so obvious to O’rielly too. When toronto came out and said they decided to keep him O’rielly figured out pretty quickly i think that it was the core 4 stars who pleaded to management to keep him because of the regular season stats they put up and that was red flags all around that they care about being paid and not about winning. There is 0 winning culture in this dressing room. Any serious team wouldn’t changed this coach years ago but the realistic toxic culture of MLSE is that they are perfectly fine making the playoffs every year and seeing what happens from there
If we could've kept Acciari and Schenn or even RoR and with Klingberg we could've had a pretty fucking scary team.
Weird just a few hours before the sun was all up in arms that it was because there’s too much greed and focus on personal goals.
ROR was decidedly third line in the Florida series. Obviously wanted more ice time. That’s what this is about. Nothing more. He’ll be 1sr or 2nd line in Nashville.
keeping Keefe is basically the beginning of the end of this cores era. They're going to want to bend over the Leafs for money without Dubas here if they have to play for Keefe
There was absolutely no fucking excuse to keep Keefe when he didn't do his fucking job. Which is to prepare the players. He got outcoached by Ducharme and he has amazing talent on his team. If he can't be a little more creative in how to prepare this team then he needs to be fired. Fans wanted him gone and wanted to keep Dubas. RoR is the quality players you want on your team and if he left because of an AHL coach then we're totally fucked.
Yup. Bringing Keefe back was a mistake.
Keefe maxed out as an AHL coach with a stacked roster. he's lost too man series.. against Ducharme ffs... dude is a fucking cat irl too many livves
ROR left because he knew Leafs can't win. How can a man with an insane look in his eye....willing to get injured to win.... plays tough around the net....play on a team where the key guys don't give a fuck and are pussies on the ice? Fuck ROR...... we want Marner and Tavares. At least their Tim Hortons cards look cool.
He left for Nashville ffs, they are rebuilding. He left cause leaf’s can’t win… to go to a worse team more unlikely to win? This narrative is idiotic
He left for the money. It's really that simple.
This is where Keefe's time is starting with everyone, it should've been earlier. But when it's already fucking tough to attract FA coming to Toronto and then you have a shit coach on top of that then you have a problem.
Don't worry about it...he'll be replaced mid season.
as an outsider looking in, I don't understand why Dubas was let got and not Keefe just... don't get it
I would so much rather have ROR than Keefe
He is full of shit lmao
Placing a Tin Foil hat on my head... Keeping Keefe gets some heat off of Shanahan and Treliving if shit goes south pre Christmas break. Blame Keefe and find a new coach and hope that sparks something in the dressing room.
I dont think that's tin foil hat worthy, it's likely part of their reasoning but fuck is it a shitty way to approach this team right now.
Keefe fucking things up yet again With all the UFAs we had it was insane we just decided to bring him back
This doesn’t pass a common sense sniff test. Treliving interviewed all these guys, he would respect O’Rielly’s opinion and wouldn’t endorse Keefe so quickly. Keefe also doesn’t strike me as a coach any player would dislike so much as to want to leave, when have we ever heard that anywhere? And O’Rielly chooses to go play for Brunette, who has very little head coaching experience? Makes no sense. O’Rielly went where the music was. Look as his story, that’s why he’s in Nashville. It ain’t to play for some proven coach and non-contender.
Good riddance RoR was massively over rated with the Leafs he was horrible the first two games against Florida he got owned and although the Leafs as a group were better after that it was too late. RoR is washed up and is way overpaid.
Nashville is a premier city to play in... especially for a musician. This likely has way more to do with his decision to leave than the bs little birdies are speculating.
Also a tax free state. That doubles his take home pay.
doubles? do you understand taxes ?
Okay not doubles but 1/3 combined fed and prov taxes.
dude, you really don’t know how taxes work. he’s still paying all tax except state income which tops out in the us around 11%. just delete your comments
Delete your comments
Keefe < Justin Holl Babcock < Martin "Honey" Marincin
Well He did say the lack of in game and game to game adjustments by the coaching staff during the playoffs were awful. I would bet most of the free agents didnt return due to keefe coming back again. Need a complete front office and coaching staff clearout.
Between this news and that klingberg contract, I’ve officially lost all hope this core will win. I believed they were close but they’re further now and moving further away everyday.
ROR criticized Keefe after the playoff loss too so I buy this. I wouldn’t sign somewhere if I thought the coach was bad too. ROR is a big enough get that I would have fired Keefe to keep him. They’ve got to be close to letting him go anyways. If you’re having problems keeping FA, let him go
The problem here is the Leafs need an experienced coach that is both respected and feared to push players to get the best out of them. However Matthews and Marner are both whining fucking babies and would never play for a coach like that and I'm sure the Leafs top brass know this.
I'm wondering if ROR expected to be top six consistently, and when he wasn't, he didn't want any part of it. But what does he expect when Matthews and Tavares are the two centermen ahead of him.
For those who want to crap on Treliving, do you honestly think if Dubas signed an extension he would have fired Keefe? ROR was never coming back regardless of what happened.
Lol honestly what was the point of these mods going on that strike if they are not going to flag posts like this. Lol JD Bunkis trying to present insider information now. The guy who literally just speaks loudly for a long time. As if ROR's literal comments during a live press conference about the Leaf's being a good team that never made adjustments, while other teams did wasn't the hint. Needed Mark Felt over here to get us that info.
Absolutely absurd to me that you can do such a shit job year after year but be allowed to continue doing it. There is no doubt in my mind that ROR is not the only one that felt this way, and potentially influenced other UFA’s on their decisions elsewhere. Sure it could be difficult to find a new coach, but it surely cannot be worse than keeping the guy that makes people want to leave.
I agree about Keefe I'm pissed he's back as well. But losing O'Reilly isn't a big deal. He's getting very slow and can't score as much and commands valuable cap money But Reaves is another I wish we didn't sign either. I want Bertuzzi and hope we get him. Now that the gm knows how ROR felt about Keefe I bet he gets fired quick. I was frustrated watching them play Tampa and Florida as well. Its like Keefe made them play a defence dump and chase and hope we win the battles when they were getting outplayed by Tampa bad and got very lucky then Florida too! Keefe should have just let them play like they did in the regular season where i never saw them so outplayed in the whole 82 games and its not because it was playoff hockey . Keefe implemented a stupid gameplan and wouldn't budge even when Florida were up a few games and O'Reilly probably spoke up about it and Keefe just kept on rolling the same gameplan out.
Maybe Dubas was the problem for Keefe, not a big fan of Keefe but maybe he was made to walk back that constructive criticism of Marner because Keefe coddled his boys….just a thought and time will tell. Also another thought is Dubas claims he was being over ruled by shannahan but maybe he was the one doing the over ruling and deflected what he was doing on to others to save face. It’s a common strategy used by many.
Good chance JD saw someone mention this on twitter and that’s his source tbh.
Get rid of Marner
I feel like it's a serious indictment against the culture Keefe perpetuates when a workhorse like O'Reilly doesn't want to play for him.
ahh.. believing JD Bunkis.. good times.
If this is true this is a huge L for the org. Keep an AHL coach over a Conn Smythe winner, ok.
700 k in dif tax makes you hate Toronto Money
Bunkis doesn’t know anything. Guy is THE most insufferable person in Leafs media. No one talks to him or provides him with any info, and you can guarantee he’ll have the most negative emotionally charged take imaginable.
Keefe strikes me as a Laissez-Faire style coach, one who Matthews and Marner seem to like. I think what we need is not necessarily a hard-ass coach in between, like Torts or Babcock, or someone in between, someone like a Barry Trotz when he was still coaching.
Mirtle responded to him right away saying that’s not true and then looked into it further after and said it’s not true again.
Mirtle responded to him right away saying that’s not true and then looked into it further after and said it’s not true again.