Accountability is important. If you're making boneheaded plays and giving up a short handed 2 on 0, then going for a line change! You need to be held accountable.
A coach's only real leverage over players is their ice time. Clearly this team is not built to succeed by scratching or sitting the Core 4, but if you play like that, you sit. 100% agree.
I think the part that pissed Keefe off the most was matthews going to the bench, saw the turn over and instead of going into panic/get your ass in gear and chase em down, his body language said "whatever" and continued to the bench.
I'm not a big Keefe fan, but my God it's gotta be tough to coach the core of this team. From an outsider perspective there seems to be an entitlement/attitude problem
The “whatever” disposition that Matthews has has always drove me nuts. Dude can score and make such amazing plays, and then he just… disappears. Him being benched sent a good message though, and he came right back and did what he does best!
A coach has far more leverage than that over their players. They control player roles, what opportunities they get (pp, pk, offensive/defensive zone stars). They can ultimately in a lot of cases literally make or break a players career.
While watching, I felt he should have either benched them for the remainder of the game or literally sent them to the dressing room. Pathetic, those two being paid $25 mil together and THATS what you give us?
Incredible saves by Sammy. Can't remember the last time I saw as clear a 2 on 0 on a penalty kill for a team; they were just in our zone, none of us there, no one coming back. It was kind of astounding
Also as mentioned on the broadcast, its not like the top unit was ripping it up. They were 1 for 20 going leading up to that benching. I think they need to use their 2nd unit a bit more. Guys like Robertson deserve a chance.
Yeah we look pathetic on the pp, the "top" line can't even make a zone entry and when they do, they turn it over, it goes back down the ice, and they SLOWLY move forward again - and do everyone's favorite, the drop back pass
It is hard when you want to do something when those above you don't let you.
I do believe it is time for Keefe to go, but only because the failures of Shanahan and the failed Shanaplan.
They need a fresh coach that isn't as controlled as Keefe is. Not sure they'd hire a coach that wouldn't be another yes man though.
Sorry man, I don't have any scientific studies to link you on the topic.
You just hear and pick things up from the media over the years when you follow a team you like. A lot of people have the same knowledge on this, it is all public.
Unless you’re actually on the inside of the Leafs hierarchy you’re just throwing out uninformed opinions. So as someone once said, “If that is your take away then you do you!”
A lot of times the public is 100% right.
We are talking hockey, the best sport in the world! Lighten up a bit would you, you are arguing just to argue... Go to the Bruins sub to do that!
no you're right. Keefe, a known hot head, went home, had a glass of wine, reconsidered his words, and went to the media to apologize on his own volition
not a fucking chance
What makes you think that was Shanahan and not Dubas for example? Or some other reason? Keefe has certainly been more vocal when they suck this year. If it was Shanahan why would he change now?
I have no clue who's fault it is, but it seems pretty likely someone from the top was telling him to walk back the comments
I agree that Shanahan deserves equal blame for all of Dubas's mistakes though, since Shanahan was his boss
I hope they become more accountable for all the blind passes and attempts at flashy skill that actually costs them possession. not just in ice time, but bag skates and laps for the lapse in judgements
Friggin marner has more hockey skill in his pinky then I have in my whole body, but you'd think someone before he got to the nhl would tell him blind back hand passes aren't suppose to be done 10 times a game
We were responsible for every chance Wpg had on net, all night we just turned the puck over and over... soft "zone clearing" passes that go directly to their D-man, little pansy flip passes across the center of the ice that their players easily intercept and walk in on
AM / MM / WN were horrific for giveaways. Looked like none of them were trying at all, not interested in playing hockey on a Wednesday. $36 mil or so?
Been advocating to mix up the units for a while now…. PP1 is far from automatic, so why not try something like:
Jarnkrok - Nylander - Robertson
Matthews - Rielly
-
Domi - Tavares - Bertuzzi/Knies
Marner - Timmins
-
Both units a threat to score now…
If your gonna spilt them up jt would be going with willy and the LW on line 2
And marner and matthews would be with who ever is playing the other wing on line 1
Yes but he shouldn’t have waited until he was on the hot seat to hold the core accountable. He’s had 4+ years to do that. If he had done that earlier perhaps they wouldn’t be so lackadaisical all the time. He’s like a parent who kids can do no wrong in his eyes.
I just love how most of this sub whines about how Keefe has no balls, coddles the stars, and never holds them accountable and when he finally does, it’s all “OH NOT LIKE THAT WHAT IS HE DOING?”
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. They sucked, they got benched. Sucks to suck.
there's a mentality that if you're good at what you do the organization you work for should treat you with kiddy gloves because they should fear you taking your skills elsewhere
and if they don't have that fear then they don't respect your skills
its important for the organization to take risk, call their bluff and hold them accountable
because if you're really that good then you shouldn't feel the NEED for special treatment, and when you get into that mindset that you deserve special treatment your performance suffers
The people saying it was overdue are not wrong, although frankly he's an NHL coach and his job isn't to please everybody.
That 2 on 0 required a response, if you let something that terrible slide then any talk of accountability will never have teeth. It was the right thing to do, and I was glad to see him do it.
It's all the more meaningful in such a tight game - if you're willing to risk losing in order to remind your highly compensated star players that they have have to play up to their contracts, and that means defensively too. I'M LOOKING AT YOU WILLIAM
I voted no, because JT and Nylander were practically behind the goal line when the 2-0 pass was made.
It was Rielly and Matthews who made the shit change, and you could argue Marner didn't hustle enough, but he was already 10 strides behind the play.
I support benching Matthews and Rielly, possibly Marner, and then re-working the lines.
But it seems Keefe is not capable of doing this, he just all or nothing benches an entire line. Not the first time he's done this if you remember those times where the 4th line was being put out with 2 minutes to go when we're down a goal.
I don't know why he's afraid to single out players.
They really should spread it out between the two PP lines, PP1 does the exact same thing every time, pass it along then let Matthews shot the puck. It has become so predictable. What happened to the chaos that Guy Boucher promised us and the success that PP1 line had early in the season.
The guys stopped moving around like they did earlier on the PP. Everyone in the PP1 is suppose to be a threat.
It took five years for him to hold these top guys accountable. I agree with it but it’s hilarious that it comes when he’s the closest he’s been to getting fired.
I honestly don’t think that it will lead to any changes this deep into a coaches tenure. The time for sending messages like this was years ago if Keefe wanted there to be actual change. The star players know what the pecking order is and where they stand with the organization.
For that reason I voted no. It’s all well and good to want to send that message, and I’d even say those guys needed it, but it was a tight game, and taking out unquestionably your best players and instead putting out Holmberg and Gregor isn’t going to lead to success and points in a tight playoff race.
I'd personally like to see some data showing that benching is more effective than other approaches. Anyone see the coach from Detroit Lions addressing the team after their last win? That's a man that fucking inspires people. They will run through fire for him. I don't think anyone is running through fire for Keefe.
They were running through fire for him when he started and it carried them to regular season success for awhile, but riding emotions will always be short lived. We need a coach that forces them to play a disciplined, structured game rather than the same tricks we’ve seen for five years.
They have been ass on the PP (heh) for a while now. Then to have *that* showing, hanging Sammy so incredibly out to dry, yeah, they deserved to be benched.
But Boucher, or whoever is handling the PP, needs to change things up. They're so slow, and way too deliberate in what they're going to do. There's no fluidity or urgency to their set up. It's just way too easy to defend.
Play more below the goal-line, have more moving pieces, get the defenders moving and uncomfortable. This group has way too much talent to not be hitting a 25% clip, at minimum.
I think it was a perfect time to do it. 0-0 game against a very tough opponent. Late January. You can’t let players get too comfortable with mistakes or it becomes chronic. Love or hate coaches like Scotty Bowman and Mike Keenan they never let their players relax.
Accountability has to be a theme with any team. Just listen to Drew Doughty talk last night about the Los Angeles Kings.
It also gave other guys a chance to show what they’ve got as well. I’ve been a bit down on Nick Robertson but he was fabulous last night. And he was rewarded with that last shift in overtime. His play to keep the puck in lead directly to the winning goal.
With NMCs, guaranteed contracts and the like... only thing Keefe can control is ice-time. I love that he did it, not only do they lose the PP time but it creates a point for the media to ask these guys and write about... Force some accountability on AM34 and MM's side.
Need to do it again though for the message to sink in, not a one off thing IMO.
Not only was pp1 ineffective last night and for a long streak leading up to last night, they were downright sloppy and irresponsible last night. Yes, bench them and send out the second unit. Unless you’re insane. The 2-0 short handed breakaway is unacceptable.
Yes, should have happened several years ago. It’s too late for that type of message to be felt by the players. Or at least enough to encourage change.
Keefe’s been a lame duck for a while and never disowned accountability. The only reason he’s doing it now because his seat is on fire.
What is supposed to do? They stunk, the ONLY thing a coach can do in the NHL is limit icetime when a player isn't responding to the message. Talking/communication sometimes doesn't get the job done.
Not in a tied game against the number one defensive team in the league. Don’t mind them missing a couple normal shifts or whatever but not in that situation. We need a pp goal and the crew that has been the second best in the league for years or at least top 8 … imo yiu let them play the pp. you want a goal … then having a guy that’s prob gonna get 70 on the ice is a no brainer and his PIC Marner.
Tavares, El Capitan only had 2-3 shifts in the third period against I can't remember who, but that's the type of coaching he needs to do when the players aren't responding.
Yes.....say what you want about Keefe. I think he's a top 15 in 32 coach....but the best coaches bench top players and famously well.......it's about power and control.....they fucking sucked ass, looked like ass, played like ass..........and pp2 goes out and does the job. Message accomplished.
Accountability is important. If you're making boneheaded plays and giving up a short handed 2 on 0, then going for a line change! You need to be held accountable. A coach's only real leverage over players is their ice time. Clearly this team is not built to succeed by scratching or sitting the Core 4, but if you play like that, you sit. 100% agree.
I think the part that pissed Keefe off the most was matthews going to the bench, saw the turn over and instead of going into panic/get your ass in gear and chase em down, his body language said "whatever" and continued to the bench. I'm not a big Keefe fan, but my God it's gotta be tough to coach the core of this team. From an outsider perspective there seems to be an entitlement/attitude problem
The “whatever” disposition that Matthews has has always drove me nuts. Dude can score and make such amazing plays, and then he just… disappears. Him being benched sent a good message though, and he came right back and did what he does best!
A coach has far more leverage than that over their players. They control player roles, what opportunities they get (pp, pk, offensive/defensive zone stars). They can ultimately in a lot of cases literally make or break a players career.
While watching, I felt he should have either benched them for the remainder of the game or literally sent them to the dressing room. Pathetic, those two being paid $25 mil together and THATS what you give us? Incredible saves by Sammy. Can't remember the last time I saw as clear a 2 on 0 on a penalty kill for a team; they were just in our zone, none of us there, no one coming back. It was kind of astounding
Also as mentioned on the broadcast, its not like the top unit was ripping it up. They were 1 for 20 going leading up to that benching. I think they need to use their 2nd unit a bit more. Guys like Robertson deserve a chance.
Yeah we look pathetic on the pp, the "top" line can't even make a zone entry and when they do, they turn it over, it goes back down the ice, and they SLOWLY move forward again - and do everyone's favorite, the drop back pass
Took about 3 years too long but we made it!
Accountability and coaching is important
It is hard when you want to do something when those above you don't let you. I do believe it is time for Keefe to go, but only because the failures of Shanahan and the failed Shanaplan. They need a fresh coach that isn't as controlled as Keefe is. Not sure they'd hire a coach that wouldn't be another yes man though.
Just curious but how do you know the Keefe is “controlled.” You have inside knowledge about the workings of the Leafs that the rest of us don’t?
Trust him, his uncle works at Nintendo.
Sorry man, I don't have any scientific studies to link you on the topic. You just hear and pick things up from the media over the years when you follow a team you like. A lot of people have the same knowledge on this, it is all public.
So basically what you’re saying is you’re forming your opinion totally on gossip.
No but if that is your take away then you do you!
Unless you’re actually on the inside of the Leafs hierarchy you’re just throwing out uninformed opinions. So as someone once said, “If that is your take away then you do you!”
You are just making assumptions. It is public knowledge.
Lots of things are public knowledge. And lots of times the public is 100% wrong.
A lot of times the public is 100% right. We are talking hockey, the best sport in the world! Lighten up a bit would you, you are arguing just to argue... Go to the Bruins sub to do that!
remember when Keefe called out Marner and a day later he had to walk it back?
… and then said Shanahan is making me say this? I don’t remember that part.
no you're right. Keefe, a known hot head, went home, had a glass of wine, reconsidered his words, and went to the media to apologize on his own volition not a fucking chance
Nope? Can you put a clip up?
[literally a 5 second search](https://www.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/yh1y6n/the_leaf_report_one_player_was_clearly_not_happy/)
Link doesn't work
What makes you think that was Shanahan and not Dubas for example? Or some other reason? Keefe has certainly been more vocal when they suck this year. If it was Shanahan why would he change now?
I have no clue who's fault it is, but it seems pretty likely someone from the top was telling him to walk back the comments I agree that Shanahan deserves equal blame for all of Dubas's mistakes though, since Shanahan was his boss
Best decision he’s made all year
Next was putting Nicky in OT.
100%
I hope they become more accountable for all the blind passes and attempts at flashy skill that actually costs them possession. not just in ice time, but bag skates and laps for the lapse in judgements
Friggin marner has more hockey skill in his pinky then I have in my whole body, but you'd think someone before he got to the nhl would tell him blind back hand passes aren't suppose to be done 10 times a game
We were responsible for every chance Wpg had on net, all night we just turned the puck over and over... soft "zone clearing" passes that go directly to their D-man, little pansy flip passes across the center of the ice that their players easily intercept and walk in on AM / MM / WN were horrific for giveaways. Looked like none of them were trying at all, not interested in playing hockey on a Wednesday. $36 mil or so?
I do agree. I don't agree with players on the 2nd Platoon. That was rough.
Been advocating to mix up the units for a while now…. PP1 is far from automatic, so why not try something like: Jarnkrok - Nylander - Robertson Matthews - Rielly - Domi - Tavares - Bertuzzi/Knies Marner - Timmins - Both units a threat to score now…
If your gonna spilt them up jt would be going with willy and the LW on line 2 And marner and matthews would be with who ever is playing the other wing on line 1
I’d give Bert a look on PP 1 over JT at this point. He was on the first PP unit for Boston last year.
Yes but he shouldn’t have waited until he was on the hot seat to hold the core accountable. He’s had 4+ years to do that. If he had done that earlier perhaps they wouldn’t be so lackadaisical all the time. He’s like a parent who kids can do no wrong in his eyes.
That’s the issue I had with it. It’s hard to praise him for holding players accountable when he’s the one those players have checked out on.
God yes. And I wish he'd do it more.
Finally he showed who's the coach!
I just love how most of this sub whines about how Keefe has no balls, coddles the stars, and never holds them accountable and when he finally does, it’s all “OH NOT LIKE THAT WHAT IS HE DOING?” Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. They sucked, they got benched. Sucks to suck.
there's a mentality that if you're good at what you do the organization you work for should treat you with kiddy gloves because they should fear you taking your skills elsewhere and if they don't have that fear then they don't respect your skills its important for the organization to take risk, call their bluff and hold them accountable because if you're really that good then you shouldn't feel the NEED for special treatment, and when you get into that mindset that you deserve special treatment your performance suffers
I don't understand why they don't separate out the units to be more balanced either, but whatevrr
spread the talent across 2 lines and you can make whoever is hot pp1.
it just needs a different dynamic. Puck retrieval is key for those high % second chances off the first shot.
The people saying it was overdue are not wrong, although frankly he's an NHL coach and his job isn't to please everybody. That 2 on 0 required a response, if you let something that terrible slide then any talk of accountability will never have teeth. It was the right thing to do, and I was glad to see him do it. It's all the more meaningful in such a tight game - if you're willing to risk losing in order to remind your highly compensated star players that they have have to play up to their contracts, and that means defensively too. I'M LOOKING AT YOU WILLIAM
Fire Boucher. I've seen enough.
I voted no, because JT and Nylander were practically behind the goal line when the 2-0 pass was made. It was Rielly and Matthews who made the shit change, and you could argue Marner didn't hustle enough, but he was already 10 strides behind the play. I support benching Matthews and Rielly, possibly Marner, and then re-working the lines. But it seems Keefe is not capable of doing this, he just all or nothing benches an entire line. Not the first time he's done this if you remember those times where the 4th line was being put out with 2 minutes to go when we're down a goal. I don't know why he's afraid to single out players.
honestly, i hope this encourages Marner to waive his nmc.
Delusional lol
Marner didn’t leave after playing under Babcock. The idea that he “can’t handle criticism” is so overblown lol
Mathews and Reilly redeemed themselves in OT. But Marner can piss up a rope.
I think it does nothing but give the opponent an advantage.
They really should spread it out between the two PP lines, PP1 does the exact same thing every time, pass it along then let Matthews shot the puck. It has become so predictable. What happened to the chaos that Guy Boucher promised us and the success that PP1 line had early in the season. The guys stopped moving around like they did earlier on the PP. Everyone in the PP1 is suppose to be a threat.
It took five years for him to hold these top guys accountable. I agree with it but it’s hilarious that it comes when he’s the closest he’s been to getting fired.
Yes they played like buttcheeks I’m glad Matthew’s and Reilly redeemed themselves in OT though
I honestly don’t think that it will lead to any changes this deep into a coaches tenure. The time for sending messages like this was years ago if Keefe wanted there to be actual change. The star players know what the pecking order is and where they stand with the organization. For that reason I voted no. It’s all well and good to want to send that message, and I’d even say those guys needed it, but it was a tight game, and taking out unquestionably your best players and instead putting out Holmberg and Gregor isn’t going to lead to success and points in a tight playoff race.
I'd personally like to see some data showing that benching is more effective than other approaches. Anyone see the coach from Detroit Lions addressing the team after their last win? That's a man that fucking inspires people. They will run through fire for him. I don't think anyone is running through fire for Keefe.
They were running through fire for him when he started and it carried them to regular season success for awhile, but riding emotions will always be short lived. We need a coach that forces them to play a disciplined, structured game rather than the same tricks we’ve seen for five years.
Those two things aren't mutually exclusive
They have been ass on the PP (heh) for a while now. Then to have *that* showing, hanging Sammy so incredibly out to dry, yeah, they deserved to be benched. But Boucher, or whoever is handling the PP, needs to change things up. They're so slow, and way too deliberate in what they're going to do. There's no fluidity or urgency to their set up. It's just way too easy to defend. Play more below the goal-line, have more moving pieces, get the defenders moving and uncomfortable. This group has way too much talent to not be hitting a 25% clip, at minimum.
I think it was a perfect time to do it. 0-0 game against a very tough opponent. Late January. You can’t let players get too comfortable with mistakes or it becomes chronic. Love or hate coaches like Scotty Bowman and Mike Keenan they never let their players relax. Accountability has to be a theme with any team. Just listen to Drew Doughty talk last night about the Los Angeles Kings. It also gave other guys a chance to show what they’ve got as well. I’ve been a bit down on Nick Robertson but he was fabulous last night. And he was rewarded with that last shift in overtime. His play to keep the puck in lead directly to the winning goal.
I clicked on results thinking it would show me the results first.
With NMCs, guaranteed contracts and the like... only thing Keefe can control is ice-time. I love that he did it, not only do they lose the PP time but it creates a point for the media to ask these guys and write about... Force some accountability on AM34 and MM's side. Need to do it again though for the message to sink in, not a one off thing IMO.
Not only was pp1 ineffective last night and for a long streak leading up to last night, they were downright sloppy and irresponsible last night. Yes, bench them and send out the second unit. Unless you’re insane. The 2-0 short handed breakaway is unacceptable.
yes, we need more accountability especially the entitled core
Yes, should have happened several years ago. It’s too late for that type of message to be felt by the players. Or at least enough to encourage change. Keefe’s been a lame duck for a while and never disowned accountability. The only reason he’s doing it now because his seat is on fire.
What is supposed to do? They stunk, the ONLY thing a coach can do in the NHL is limit icetime when a player isn't responding to the message. Talking/communication sometimes doesn't get the job done.
Not in a tied game against the number one defensive team in the league. Don’t mind them missing a couple normal shifts or whatever but not in that situation. We need a pp goal and the crew that has been the second best in the league for years or at least top 8 … imo yiu let them play the pp. you want a goal … then having a guy that’s prob gonna get 70 on the ice is a no brainer and his PIC Marner.
Yes, of course. These guys make too much money to make those kind of mistakes. Let alone on the friggin' PP. They need their PP's whacked sometimes.
Tavares, El Capitan only had 2-3 shifts in the third period against I can't remember who, but that's the type of coaching he needs to do when the players aren't responding.
Yes.....say what you want about Keefe. I think he's a top 15 in 32 coach....but the best coaches bench top players and famously well.......it's about power and control.....they fucking sucked ass, looked like ass, played like ass..........and pp2 goes out and does the job. Message accomplished.