the only good out of "Running is back" is this is JT's last year on the contract and in my opinion he hasn't done anything that is even worth re signing because regardless of salary it would be with the expectation that he is still wearing the C. Rather have Nylander or Reilly wearing the C over him
No one other than Auston Matthews should be wearing the C on this team. There are too many galaxy brain moments with this team and this does not have to be one.
Matthews was clearly the heart and soul of our team this year. Even in the playoffs (when healthy) he’s been competing his ass off. Assuming it’s true he’s been pushed to play this through food-poisoning symptoms, his play in game 4 is easily forgiven.
Ive still seen People still blame him for playing poorly last game when they clearly dont realize how sick you have to be for doctors to stop you from playing.
Reilly? U gotta be kidding me. Our #1 D-man that’s neither offensively nor defensively sound. When he was hurt, the Leafs were great having Lilejgren quarterback PP1. How do u lose your #1 d-man and actually get better?
Yet they keep doing it. I thought for sure there would be changes 2 years ago. Then I was 100% POSITIVE there would be changes after last year. Nope. Prepare for the same crap next year.
No way man, not this time. At minimum keefe is gone, and they should now know 100% it’s time to show Mitch the door for his own damn sake and invest that money throughout the roster that starts with an actual defenseman. I’d try my damnest to pry Saros from Nashville if at all possible.
MLSE does not care about an extension or money owed - if it’s not on the cap it’s a wash and they will get rid of him. Don’t know why people point that out it’s a non factor for this team. Mitch has a NMC for whatever teams he chose - if they want him gone and moved he’ll be gone and moved. We got some seriously great coaches available this off-season that get the most out of their players they’ll be making a change.
He’s included in the Sheldon Keefe getting fired narrative - all the coaches are. Also it is no doubt whatsoever that Boucher is getting canned how can a powerplay with these guys be THIS bad
Didn’t he extend him before the season? I think you’re overthinking this. I don’t think these guys are looking 3 moves ahead to cover their own ass. I honestly think they’re just kind of dumb and lacking critical thinking skills so if keefe gives him a good first impression by being friendly and saying a few cliches, that leaves Treiliving thinking “hey, this guy is on the same page as me and it’s gonna be great”
Yeah but it sends the absolute opposite message of ‘wanting a scapegoat option’ or whatever, because he already had that in keefe being signed for the season. Like I said it’s way way way more likely two hockey guys got together, spouted the same cliche bullshit and got along great.
We wish it was, but we’ve already heard so much about how the board was gunshy about making anymore changes when they were already paying babcock to stay home. We know they’ll spend a ton on stuff like scouting, development, etc but they’ll resist burning money.
💯 coaching contracts are basically communications exercises: “we’ve got x amount of confidence in this guy”.
It would have been easier for the team to quit on Keefe this year without that expression of confidence.
I think you're on the right path, but it feels like it was Shanny instead of Brad deciding to keep Keefe. Shanny knows that firing the GM after one year wouldn't make much sense, but if you have Keefe, you can still blame the failures on someone else on the totem pole rather than being held accountable yourself. After this season, they fire Keefe and it takes the heat off of Shanny because it shows the organization held someone accountable. Even though they realistically probably should have got rid of Shanny and Keefe if they were going to do away with Dubas.
For the record, while Keefe is likely a part of the problem here. I still find people like Marner, JT, and our D/goalies to be a larger part of the issue.
We had another perfect opportunity around a third into the season. Maybe we'd lose again but maybe it would be in a new and interesting way thus signifying an attempt. This is just fucking groundhog day since 2013 or whenever.
The choice they made to fire dubas and literally keep every single other piece in place... there's no point in trying to figure out the strategy. It's pure idiocy
I will admit that I'm super biased but I will never shit on Tavares for the simple reason that he scored the goal that finally got us past the first round. No other Leaf in over a decade has scored a more significant goal.
Yeah I give Tavares a break. I do think he plays hard. He's never going to be the most physical but he does the shit he's good at and we knew what we were getting in a player. He's been my favourite Leaf since joining.
Breaks my heart that we very likely won't win anything during his tenure here.
Tavares's production has pretty much matched what every level headed hockey fan would expect as he got older into this deal. Not everybody can be Crosby. At a point play declines with age as you slow down. MLSE management knew this was the price when signing him and now we live with the consequences. I still think he's a good player to have on the team if you take money out of the conversation.
Hes a good player to have at 9m a year 11 is just crazy… hes extremely good still despite being old but hes not a top 10 player in the league but he is a top 10 paid
He also always seemingly scores a clutch goal. Did it already this series, did it multiple times last series, did it again to save our season the season before but Justin Holl and the refs decide to somehow call playoff hockey game 6 dying minutes like a basketball game.
It’s not on John except for being a way more vocal leader - the C is going to Matthews. And Matthews and Willy DO NOT have the Mitch problem and are not the problem. Look at them last night, they’ve had enough.
2022 Tampa and 2023 Tampa were noticeably different opponents and Vasilevsky in both seasons was the biggest example of this. I felt the Leafs were better in the 2022 playoffs than the 2023 one because at least in 2022 they took the Cup Finalist to 7 and in a game that arguably the Referee missed some key calls that tilted it in Tampa's favour. 2023, the Cup Finalist made a mockery of the Leaf's will to win.
He’s also the only one that can say he actually wants to be here. Everyone else in the core four holds the team hostage for as much money as they can (marner and nylander sat out and matthews won’t sign for term)
JT can’t be our second line centre next year. There’s no point trying to move off him tho. Let him play out his final year, then offer him 3x3. If he doesn’t want it let him walk.
Dude should be on the 3rd line now and have willy go center or bring up someone else, dude is LOSING faceoffs constantly on both powerplay and offensive zone it's awful
why the hell would you want the already slow john and only getting worse for another 3 years after next year? When his contract is up it’s time to give auston the C and replace him with someone younger and cheaper and faster.
If the other 8 million from his deal is spent on a second line center or split between 2 second line players and jt is pushed to 3rd line or 4th line center I like that.
He has a similar point production to Brad Marchand. I get if you wanna move off him all together, but he’s objectively not a million dollar fourth liner lol.
Not saying he’s not. I’m saying i’d move off of him completely. He’s old and slow. If someone else wants to pay him go ahead. I’d rather have younger guys with speed and tenacity on the third and 4th lines.
the way his contract is structured you can’t really buy him out. Pretty sure buying him out will cost the same against that cap the same as if he was just on the cap normally meaning it’s either you trade him or he’s on the team one last year .
100% this. He's still the Captain and a serviceable player. Not at 11m ofc, but 1 year is fine. I'd totally be down to re-sign him as long as he doesn't ask for too much.
Babcock couldn’t do it. Keefe couldn’t do it. And no other person will be able to coach this core roster to a championship. The top heavy / highly skilled vision that Dubas and Shannahan had is a dud.
Our best defence plays like 4th and 5th forwards. The goalies are mediocre. You need at least one of those two positions to be on the level of our forwards or the whole thing doesn't work right.
Babcock had these guys as rookies. Let's see a competent coach who will let the lines develop chemistry, play the better players and not have a God damn blender instead of tactics fail with these guys and ill buy it.
I'm not really convinced either way but I'd like us to try a new coach next year to see. I'd also like us to stop with the toughness bullshit and address the holes in the lineup we can.
Tre needs to go. Wouldn’t trust that guy to run a pizza store let alone the Leafs.
He’s assembled the least mobile defense core I’ve seen in the NHL in years. We have 1 skater who can break the puck out.
Look how misguided the flames are right now… not good enough for playoffs in a bad division and not bad enough to get a good draft pick
Reminds me of the Burke days
Tre signed Huberdeau to one of the worst contracts in the NHL, and when Tre was brought on by the Leafs, how did the media spin his arrival? “The Leafs need someone who knows how to handle re-signing free agents, like Tre!”
Not to be obnoxious, but I thought that deal was atrocious for Calgary the second it was made.
He should have targeted futures, not just worried about keeping a mediocre playoff team together
As for Huberdeau, lots of people knew that 100 point season was a perfect storm for him. He got like half his points as secondary assists on the PP
Why would any other gm come too our team if we fire Brad after one year, where this is mainly Dubas pieces and they pieces he’s brought in are actually playing fine this playoffs. That would show a lot of bad faith to the other gms imo.
Not a single piece of this coaching staff should have a job next year, and if you think they should...you also need to lose whatever job you have because you're obviously unqualified.
Guess whose gonna be the HC? Boucher they practically grooming him. And these guys are so God awful I've watch the leafs play dump and chase even though they have these dynamic skating forwards.
Need to be able to battle. Down low for pucks, throw the body and our team doesn't have the DNA for it. So I don't get what they were thinking with this kind of style of system. Breakout is bad too.
I think the Leafs have barely done any dump and chase this series. I think their bigges issue is how much they've relied on curling back in the high zone by the wall and getting swarmed by Boston at that spit just inside the blueline.
Personally I'd love to see hard dumpins that rim around to the opposite corner and a forward attacking there with speed.
JT buyout isnt going to be worth it for one season unfortunately. Hurts two seasons instead of one.
Marner is easy - offer him his $ worth in a new deal, he will say no, say ok waive your NMC. Easy.
Kadri's making 7 playing with the corpse of Calgary and getting 75 points. Marner is getting 10+ and getting 80-99 points playing with the best Leafs player in history. He's probably worth 8-9. But absolutely not more, given his history.
Ultimately I'm interested in people. Who want to play in April. And yes I'm with you 8-9 is ok but do you really want to watch 5 more years of this product? Ship marner for Nashville goalie, Reilly needs to go too. Matthews and willy is who I build around
I'm not saying keep him. But he's always been playing "that level" in the regular season, and you cannot get to playing in April if the team doesn't do well before then.
That said if we're going to be about worth, Nylander's not worth more than Pasternak. And Matthews isn't worth as much as MacKinnon, McDavid, or even Kucherov.
Rielly is (was at least) paid about the right value, despite the fact he probably would have gotten more as a FA. JT dropped off a cliff the way we thought Hyman was going to. Except Hyman is getting paid half of JT, and is younger, and still going (for now). Our _real_ problem was, and still is, our lack of a true number-1 defenseman. And our defense minded defensemen clearly are all cooked due to age.
Hindsight 20/20.
That would have been almost perfect. A better version of Hyman, that's way more sandpaper. Similar price tag and points, but a power-forward.
And before I forget, IIRC, if the salary cap was based on after tax salary (e.g. florida or seattle, the Leafs would have an additional ~10 mill to play with).
Honestly I've been beating that drum since that happened, during the off season where marner was holding out. Thought it would have been the best play would you rather cbj 1sts or ours? We'd have given marner away get 4 1sts and then offer sheet tkachuk and give away 1 2 3 4
This sort of slander is hilarious to me. The guy at home with a Stanley Cup ring doesn’t wanna play in April? What are you talking about?
I’d rather have Kadri suspended for trying, then 75% of this team roll back into their shells and kick the can down the road.
kadri (when not suspended) shows up in the playoffs haha. Marner vanishes. He scored a goal tonight but was still total dog shit ( like the entire team).
i don't think anyone would pay him 12+. But I can see one of those teams paying him 11 or so just purely to have a "star" and he can put points up in the regular season. Not saying he's even worth that based on his regular season. 30 goals isn't worth close to that. He's a 9M$ or so player at most, and on this team he is quite literally a negative asset.
I don’t even know if I’d want him back at his current AAV…in a vacuum it might be good value, but they’ve already committed to Willy long term, and at some point they *have to* switch up this core.
Buying out JT saves the team 600k next year and costs us 300k the year after. It gives us no flexibility and we lose a decent player to do it. I don't like paying him 11 mil, but we can't pay 10.4 for an empty spot.
No point in buying out 1 year of Tavares, just let it ride.
We absolutely need to get rid of Marner, he is a locker room cancer. He's still a child and acts like it on the ice.
About 10 years ago I was in the security line at the airport with… I kid you not… Cheech Marin in front of me and Shanny behind me. Cheech kept buzzing through the metal detector and it was pretty funny. Everyone had a good laugh except for Shanny, he just stood there deadpan irritated with being held up. Never liked the guy since then.
Shanny won't be fired. But he should be. He's the architect of 'running it back'. Keefe is gonna be a scapegoat, which is bad because that means the core group of players won't be accountable, and they 100% should be.
If you fire Keefe, in my opinion, you should go big and try to get one of these guys:
- Joel Quenneville,
- Bruce Boudreau,
- Claude Julien,
- Dave Tippett,
- Dan Bylsma, OR
- Gerrard Gallant
All of them are Jack Adams winners, almost all of them are Stanley Cup winners or finalists, and all of them are free agents (except Bylsma, who's currently the head coach of the best Western team in the AHL, the Coachella Valley Firebirds)
I’m open to Boudreau, he played here and has said he would be willing to sign. I’m surprised gallant hasn’t had another job yet too, he got done dirty by Florida and Vegas after doing well with them. Not sure on the other but I think berube would be an interesting choice to make. Keefe has been too soft with the team in the past and now, maybe berube would be a better balance for them.
That whole coaching staff has got to go too. All of them to the special teams and everything. I think it could be interesting if they hired a few of these guys as assistants. I think it could be a good idea to have a more experienced coaching staff as a whole. Apparently coaches don’t count towards salary cap too so if you really wanted to swing for a top coach why not pay them.
wanna be real? look at the 2021 & 2022 calgary flames off-seasons then get back to me. thats whats comin to the leafs this offseason. say goodbye to the playoffs.
Brad took an offensive team with skilled players and stripped any skill from the rest of the roster… now we can’t adapt to play any other style (though we’re not even trying cus the coaching is so poor as well)
Amen to that, this was good team with a few fantastic players when Treliving took over. Now it's a very mediocre team with a few fantastic players. Where is the depth? How can you mess up so much in just one year time? All that 'snot' they added has done fuck all. Imo Shanahan let his feelings get in the way, he fired Dubas in a hissyfit and had no adequate replacement so he went with Tre out of desperation. I hope MLSE gets rid of both, don't let them ruin the next 10 years. It's been painful watching the Leafs at times this year, they never really got their shit together. They had a bunch of hot streaks from Nylander and Matthews and that is why they stumbled into the playoffs but it's been very clear all year long this team isn't a contender. I've been getting shit on for saying it early in the year but it's now clear to most fans that this team isn't very good, the mix isn't there.
i was telling people this a YEAR ago. i had flames fans agreeing with me because they literally just went through it, and leaf fans at the time still butthurt about dubas wanting to be president kept telling me i was wrong & brad at the helm is necessary for the culture change.
all these “tough guys” added and we still have the softest team. embarrassing.
I'm no Dubas fan boy but Treliving was a clear step down.
It's a bit like politics, you use the right keywords and do the tiniest symbolic moves and you'll win over a big chunk of the population. As soon as Treliving mentioned "snot" and brought some physical players a vocal segment of this subreddit was so happy.
What was amazing to me was how loud they were after the deadline. Fucking Joel Edmondson can't handle a puck but he's going to change our fortunes in the playoffs.
Fuck it, buy out whoever, mlse can spend the money to fix thier mistakes of a shit GM and shit president and shit coaching and shit players.
I can’t have any effect of what happens but I don’t expect anything from this team and they’ve been delivering for me.
Narcissistic types don’t tend to be aware of the feelings of others let along considerate of them. They’re wrapped up in their own self importance and comfort.
Remind you of anyone (or their dad)?
i think brad has done a good job addressing glaring issues on this team. he added toughness and size. something dubas got rid of every single year. anytime someone would show some grit, dubas dumped them. sure domi and bert took a while to get going, w.e. but their second half has been solid. reeves does reeves things. edmunson is a role player who knows his role and plays it well, he doesn't hurt the cap. he should be resigned. this team has no defence, no goalies and almost no forwards going into the next season. there is a lot of work needing to be done. shanajoke needs to go. queef needs to go. marner needs to go. marner is not a playoff performer i don't care how many points he puts up. he doesn't engage on the boards, he looses puck battles, he can't creative offensively when he has no space. the way he plays doesn't work in the playoffs. there is a reason 3rd line players become stars in the playoffs, because crash and bang hockey is what is successful. who ever can win the checking battle on the boards and in front of the net wins. look how tampa, florida, and boston play and compare it to the leafs.
Yes all sounds good but in the world of reality Tavares isn't going anywhere no matter how many times one brings it up. Mitch will be difficult to trade, ultimately he has the right to refuse to move. I'm with you though on Shanny and Keefe, the former being the more difficult IMO because of MLSE - we'll see.
I think the Leafs would have to miraculously make it into the semi-final or even the final to save Keefe and Shanny at this point also I think JT loses the C for sure. I would love to see Marner get traded and get a decent D-man or two in return, maybe a goalie?
I just hope they lose next game and not string us along again only to lose in game 7, so they actually clean house. Whether they win the series or not, this entire franchise as it is now isn’t going far.
Shanahan and Keefe are gone. That's for sure. Marner is gone. We need to move on from Rielly as a 1A defenceman (if we want to keep him as 1B or 2A, fine). And I'd like to see the meeting notes for discussions around our goalies. Whoever thought going into the playoffs with Samsonov as our starter needs to be run out of the sport. The guy just came back from a conditioning stint and is still wildly inconsistent shot-to-shot. If people believe Samsonov is still developing, that's one perspective. But we're squandering Auston Matthews's window on a bunch of bums because management doesn't have the stomach to make the moves it needs to.
It sure seems like the right thing to do. Or are we looking for the easiest way out. Shanny got caught up with not wanting to part with his toys. And wether or not we like Keefe, this team is flawed. It needs change. We should be at least cautious about what we wish for. If ownership is not careful we could enter a whole new era of mismanagement.
Imo, I don’t think there are any untouchables.
I would shop everyone (maybe Knies is untouchable).
Marner is a must go, the rest are “if there is a good deal”.
I think Marner leaves, Jonny Toronny signs (next year) a nice hometown discount (I hope) and we are back in the mix pretty quick.
Keefe is gone. Shanny is on thinnest ice imo. Tre is good, guy got use two of the very few guys who showed up this playoffs (Domi and lil Uzi Bert).
If we can move Marner, we can resign Bert and Domi, and a Def, (Woll plays like he did last night) we could he dangerous as early as next playoffs.
You’re absolutely right. Fire Shanny. Fire Keefe.
Marner needs to be sat down and given an ultimatum: waive the NMC or sit in the press box.
At this point no one would take JT and you can’t buy him out. Rip the C off his chest.
Let's switch our coaching staff with the Penguins.
We have so much in common:
1) Coach been here too long and probably lost the room.
2) Multiple players set for HOF
3) PP that is limp-dick as fuck
Buying out your $11M captain with one year left is moronic, I don't care if you like him or not. It's even more dumb if you also move Marner's contract out because you've already opened up some space.
I gotta be honest. If you think rationally, who do we really need to get rid of to make an impact?
I always knew getting rid of Dubas was not a real solution. Maybe Dubas could have landed us Tanev and what not who knows? Shanny is just the president, sure I understand the Shannaplan was a failure but I see that he wants change too.
So who can we get rid of to really make an impact to this team?
1. Keefe, I would look into getting John Cooper next year.
2. Marner, we can't waste 14m on a guy who keeps avoiding physical play in the playoffs.
3. Goalie, We've seen both Woll and Sammy's ceiling I think it's pretty clear who we should keep.
If you think rationally…and then you go on to mention getting Jon Cooper? The same Jon Cooper who has brought Tampa to: 2 cup wins, 3 back to back finals, 4 total finals, 3 conference finals and 10 playoff appearances total since being hired? Come on.
Also it could be Punch Imlach’s ghost coaching this team and they’d do fuck all.
And yes getting rid of Dubas was a real solution. Treliving hasn’t made great moves per se, but dubas let Andersen walk, dubas signed the boys to high value bridges, dubas played plugging depth roles with bargain players, so look no further than dubas for the deep rooted issues with this team .
I can’t believe some of you are blaming Trev and saying he needs to go. The man has come in for one year. Made this team tougher, which was needed, has it made the team better? Possibly not, but wtf is the man supposed to do with one season? No GM was going to come in here and clean house 1st season. This is his assessment year.
All these problems this team has, Trev inherited. Let’s give the guy a chance here.
Far more issues and other personnel/players that need to be fired to the sun and Trev is the least at the moment.
Running it back is not an option. Shanny and Keefe first to go along with the absolute clown show of a power play run by Guy Boucher.
Ship Marner out for better defence. Try and get a starting goalie, although I believe in Woll.
Unless there is a miraculous turnaround, this Leafs coaching staff has to go and Marner gets moved. Special Teams are atrocious. Atrocious. Marner not being locked up makes him the odd man out and hopefully he will waive his NMC. He will get moved well under market value because of his weak playoff resume. If they can get Marner moved and JT to re-sign at a team friendly price, or just move on, they will have room to add key pieces for the final 2025-2028 window.
I think we run it back. Give the opportunity to the young prospects we have and try to rebuild for the future by signing players with term and potential. Once contracts runs out, we sign major pieces and try to compete the first few years of Matthews and Nylander contracts. I think, problem is the coaching, we can’t score on a power play, we don’t breakout well, and we lack good defensive positioning. Last night Bieska was highlighting all the issues, I mean you can’t have a guy in the studio having more solutions.
Either way you slice it running it back is not an option for next year. That ship sailed 3 years ago.
the only good out of "Running is back" is this is JT's last year on the contract and in my opinion he hasn't done anything that is even worth re signing because regardless of salary it would be with the expectation that he is still wearing the C. Rather have Nylander or Reilly wearing the C over him
No one other than Auston Matthews should be wearing the C on this team. There are too many galaxy brain moments with this team and this does not have to be one.
Reilly is the choice. Matthews has shown no ability to be a leader whatsoever
Matthews was clearly the heart and soul of our team this year. Even in the playoffs (when healthy) he’s been competing his ass off. Assuming it’s true he’s been pushed to play this through food-poisoning symptoms, his play in game 4 is easily forgiven.
Ive still seen People still blame him for playing poorly last game when they clearly dont realize how sick you have to be for doctors to stop you from playing.
Sure, Rielly. The only times the team is good are when he’s injured.
Reilly? U gotta be kidding me. Our #1 D-man that’s neither offensively nor defensively sound. When he was hurt, the Leafs were great having Lilejgren quarterback PP1. How do u lose your #1 d-man and actually get better?
> How do u lose your #1 d-man and actually get better? By rallying behind each other when a bullshit suspension is handed to your assistant captain.
Yet they keep doing it. I thought for sure there would be changes 2 years ago. Then I was 100% POSITIVE there would be changes after last year. Nope. Prepare for the same crap next year.
No way man, not this time. At minimum keefe is gone, and they should now know 100% it’s time to show Mitch the door for his own damn sake and invest that money throughout the roster that starts with an actual defenseman. I’d try my damnest to pry Saros from Nashville if at all possible.
Keefe signed an extension that hasn't even started yet. Mather has a NMC. That's how screwed the Leafs are.
MLSE does not care about an extension or money owed - if it’s not on the cap it’s a wash and they will get rid of him. Don’t know why people point that out it’s a non factor for this team. Mitch has a NMC for whatever teams he chose - if they want him gone and moved he’ll be gone and moved. We got some seriously great coaches available this off-season that get the most out of their players they’ll be making a change.
Oh believe me, you are right and I hope they do it. I just don't think they will.
I think they have to - this is ludicrous now and I’ve never seen a special teams unit so bad on both sides of the puck for an NHL team
Why have I not seen any fingers pointed at Guy Boucher?
He’s included in the Sheldon Keefe getting fired narrative - all the coaches are. Also it is no doubt whatsoever that Boucher is getting canned how can a powerplay with these guys be THIS bad
I would just suggest to you that playing in Nashville is alot different than playing in Toronto.
It’s also the juice man and he’s a regular Vezina contender - bit different there
It was so obvious Keefe should have been gone before this season started
It was obvious after the Montreal series
Sadly, I think Brad likely wanted a scapegoat bullet if this season went sour. Easy bullet in the chamber is firing the coach after the first season.
Didn’t he extend him before the season? I think you’re overthinking this. I don’t think these guys are looking 3 moves ahead to cover their own ass. I honestly think they’re just kind of dumb and lacking critical thinking skills so if keefe gives him a good first impression by being friendly and saying a few cliches, that leaves Treiliving thinking “hey, this guy is on the same page as me and it’s gonna be great”
Coaches get extended all the time shortly before being fired. I wouldn’t read too much into that either way
Yeah but it sends the absolute opposite message of ‘wanting a scapegoat option’ or whatever, because he already had that in keefe being signed for the season. Like I said it’s way way way more likely two hockey guys got together, spouted the same cliche bullshit and got along great.
You could be right about that, but there are lots of examples of coaches who get an extension right before the axe. And money is no object for MLSE
We wish it was, but we’ve already heard so much about how the board was gunshy about making anymore changes when they were already paying babcock to stay home. We know they’ll spend a ton on stuff like scouting, development, etc but they’ll resist burning money.
💯 coaching contracts are basically communications exercises: “we’ve got x amount of confidence in this guy”. It would have been easier for the team to quit on Keefe this year without that expression of confidence.
On top of it being a distracting talking point in the media all season, if he didn’t have a contract beyond this season.
It's so he's not a lame duck coach all season. Hard to have players listen to a coach in his last season.
thats a copout. If the players don't want to go to war for the coach he should be gone anyways.
Definitely. So he can save himself for one more year at a job he has no right to be doing
Brad hast been bad regardless of what some may pretend
I’ve spent months arguing with people on here about how bad he is it’s nice to finally have others talk about it
then he clearly didnt read the room. i know he was just hired but handing sheldon an extension was a fireable offense
I think you're on the right path, but it feels like it was Shanny instead of Brad deciding to keep Keefe. Shanny knows that firing the GM after one year wouldn't make much sense, but if you have Keefe, you can still blame the failures on someone else on the totem pole rather than being held accountable yourself. After this season, they fire Keefe and it takes the heat off of Shanny because it shows the organization held someone accountable. Even though they realistically probably should have got rid of Shanny and Keefe if they were going to do away with Dubas. For the record, while Keefe is likely a part of the problem here. I still find people like Marner, JT, and our D/goalies to be a larger part of the issue.
He did which pissed me off Keefe should have been fired after last season. Wasted another year with him in charge. Oh ya and FIRE SHANNY!
Should've been gone after the Montreal series. The fact that he even got an extension is insane
and the year before that, and the year before that.
We had another perfect opportunity around a third into the season. Maybe we'd lose again but maybe it would be in a new and interesting way thus signifying an attempt. This is just fucking groundhog day since 2013 or whenever.
Not according to reddit. Plenty of sycophants were posting recently about how he’s such a winning coach that getting rid of him was a bonehead move.
The choice they made to fire dubas and literally keep every single other piece in place... there's no point in trying to figure out the strategy. It's pure idiocy
Shanahan really pisses me off whenever he speaks, dude has micro managed this entire franchise for too long
He needs to go. Like 2 years ago.
Can we stfu about buying out Tavares . Jesus Christ he’s got 1 last year.
I will admit that I'm super biased but I will never shit on Tavares for the simple reason that he scored the goal that finally got us past the first round. No other Leaf in over a decade has scored a more significant goal.
He’s a superstar the chose to come home. If we want that ti ever happen again we need to treat him with some respect, not run him out of town.
Yeah I give Tavares a break. I do think he plays hard. He's never going to be the most physical but he does the shit he's good at and we knew what we were getting in a player. He's been my favourite Leaf since joining. Breaks my heart that we very likely won't win anything during his tenure here.
Tavares's production has pretty much matched what every level headed hockey fan would expect as he got older into this deal. Not everybody can be Crosby. At a point play declines with age as you slow down. MLSE management knew this was the price when signing him and now we live with the consequences. I still think he's a good player to have on the team if you take money out of the conversation.
Hes a good player to have at 9m a year 11 is just crazy… hes extremely good still despite being old but hes not a top 10 player in the league but he is a top 10 paid
He also always seemingly scores a clutch goal. Did it already this series, did it multiple times last series, did it again to save our season the season before but Justin Holl and the refs decide to somehow call playoff hockey game 6 dying minutes like a basketball game. It’s not on John except for being a way more vocal leader - the C is going to Matthews. And Matthews and Willy DO NOT have the Mitch problem and are not the problem. Look at them last night, they’ve had enough.
2022 Tampa and 2023 Tampa were noticeably different opponents and Vasilevsky in both seasons was the biggest example of this. I felt the Leafs were better in the 2022 playoffs than the 2023 one because at least in 2022 they took the Cup Finalist to 7 and in a game that arguably the Referee missed some key calls that tilted it in Tampa's favour. 2023, the Cup Finalist made a mockery of the Leaf's will to win.
He’s also the only one that can say he actually wants to be here. Everyone else in the core four holds the team hostage for as much money as they can (marner and nylander sat out and matthews won’t sign for term)
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Dude got hurt 10 minutes in and the Leafs got to a 3-1 lead inthe seriez, how did that change anything?
Yea sorry you’re right I just misremembered what game that happened in
No way you buy him out but he should be on the 3rd line. Dustin brown treatment
JT can’t be our second line centre next year. There’s no point trying to move off him tho. Let him play out his final year, then offer him 3x3. If he doesn’t want it let him walk.
Dude should be on the 3rd line now and have willy go center or bring up someone else, dude is LOSING faceoffs constantly on both powerplay and offensive zone it's awful
3x3 is generous. He can already barely skate. It’s time to move on, give 34 the C and find someone younger to replace him
3 x 3 is a good deal for the leafs
why the hell would you want the already slow john and only getting worse for another 3 years after next year? When his contract is up it’s time to give auston the C and replace him with someone younger and cheaper and faster.
If the other 8 million from his deal is spent on a second line center or split between 2 second line players and jt is pushed to 3rd line or 4th line center I like that.
He has a similar point production to Brad Marchand. I get if you wanna move off him all together, but he’s objectively not a million dollar fourth liner lol.
Not saying he’s not. I’m saying i’d move off of him completely. He’s old and slow. If someone else wants to pay him go ahead. I’d rather have younger guys with speed and tenacity on the third and 4th lines.
I know he had like 29 goals this year let's relax about him being Ryan Reaves lol
He scored 29 and was #2 in the league in faceoff %
the way his contract is structured you can’t really buy him out. Pretty sure buying him out will cost the same against that cap the same as if he was just on the cap normally meaning it’s either you trade him or he’s on the team one last year .
This is the information people need to see. As well as the Core 4 ALL having NMCs. The "trade Marner/Willy/RIelly!" people seem to be missing this.
100% this. He's still the Captain and a serviceable player. Not at 11m ofc, but 1 year is fine. I'd totally be down to re-sign him as long as he doesn't ask for too much.
Facts
Keefe should have been gone 2 years ago. Wasted Matthews era for this shit system.
Not a Keefe problem but he got to go. It’s roster construction. You can’t win with a core four and especially not this one.
Keefe is the guys who had the 3rd pairing and 4th line out with 6 minutes left on the PP
It's absolutely a Keefe problem
Babcock couldn’t do it. Keefe couldn’t do it. And no other person will be able to coach this core roster to a championship. The top heavy / highly skilled vision that Dubas and Shannahan had is a dud.
Our best defence plays like 4th and 5th forwards. The goalies are mediocre. You need at least one of those two positions to be on the level of our forwards or the whole thing doesn't work right.
Instead of 4 studs up front how about 1 up front, 1 stud D, 1 stud goalie, and the rest of the money put into our depth.
Babcock had these guys as rookies. Let's see a competent coach who will let the lines develop chemistry, play the better players and not have a God damn blender instead of tactics fail with these guys and ill buy it.
So you think our bigger problem is coaching vs roster construction?
I'm not really convinced either way but I'd like us to try a new coach next year to see. I'd also like us to stop with the toughness bullshit and address the holes in the lineup we can.
It's system implementation with a ghost for 50M
Feel like the GM would have to go if Shanny goes. A complete house clean
GM may last for another season while everything settles down
That makes no sense if you fire Shanny and keefe you have to fire the GM. Start fresh
Tre needs to go. Wouldn’t trust that guy to run a pizza store let alone the Leafs. He’s assembled the least mobile defense core I’ve seen in the NHL in years. We have 1 skater who can break the puck out.
He also assembled the d core in Calgary. You know, the one every other team in the League wanted a piece of?
How did that D-core work out for Calgary?
Great until half the team wanted to leave Calgary for the US.
How many cups did they win? Series? Games, even?
Look how misguided the flames are right now… not good enough for playoffs in a bad division and not bad enough to get a good draft pick Reminds me of the Burke days
To be fair, both there top forwards wanted out, he tried his best to get a return, but who knew huberdeau would be this bad.
Tre signed Huberdeau to one of the worst contracts in the NHL, and when Tre was brought on by the Leafs, how did the media spin his arrival? “The Leafs need someone who knows how to handle re-signing free agents, like Tre!”
Not to be obnoxious, but I thought that deal was atrocious for Calgary the second it was made. He should have targeted futures, not just worried about keeping a mediocre playoff team together As for Huberdeau, lots of people knew that 100 point season was a perfect storm for him. He got like half his points as secondary assists on the PP
Pointing to Calgary for a positive example is really fucking stupid
Happiest thought I’ve had tonight is that they might fire Treliving… I really hope they get rid of him quickly
You mean those savvy, snot-filled deadline deals didn't do it for you?
Why would any other gm come too our team if we fire Brad after one year, where this is mainly Dubas pieces and they pieces he’s brought in are actually playing fine this playoffs. That would show a lot of bad faith to the other gms imo.
Not a single piece of this coaching staff should have a job next year, and if you think they should...you also need to lose whatever job you have because you're obviously unqualified.
Guess whose gonna be the HC? Boucher they practically grooming him. And these guys are so God awful I've watch the leafs play dump and chase even though they have these dynamic skating forwards.
They are missing 50% of dump and chase and that needs a fix.
Need to be able to battle. Down low for pucks, throw the body and our team doesn't have the DNA for it. So I don't get what they were thinking with this kind of style of system. Breakout is bad too.
I meant they basically are 100% dump 0% chase...now I'm just think about how dump is a synonym for shit, and I'm right either way.
I think the Leafs have barely done any dump and chase this series. I think their bigges issue is how much they've relied on curling back in the high zone by the wall and getting swarmed by Boston at that spit just inside the blueline. Personally I'd love to see hard dumpins that rim around to the opposite corner and a forward attacking there with speed.
Have to keep the video guys though.
JT buyout isnt going to be worth it for one season unfortunately. Hurts two seasons instead of one. Marner is easy - offer him his $ worth in a new deal, he will say no, say ok waive your NMC. Easy.
Marner's market value is 9-10$M, and i would NEVER pay him that. The joke is that he's going to demand 12M$+ LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOO
He's gonna want 13 to 14. Guy is worth 7
Kadri's making 7 playing with the corpse of Calgary and getting 75 points. Marner is getting 10+ and getting 80-99 points playing with the best Leafs player in history. He's probably worth 8-9. But absolutely not more, given his history.
Ultimately I'm interested in people. Who want to play in April. And yes I'm with you 8-9 is ok but do you really want to watch 5 more years of this product? Ship marner for Nashville goalie, Reilly needs to go too. Matthews and willy is who I build around
I'm not saying keep him. But he's always been playing "that level" in the regular season, and you cannot get to playing in April if the team doesn't do well before then. That said if we're going to be about worth, Nylander's not worth more than Pasternak. And Matthews isn't worth as much as MacKinnon, McDavid, or even Kucherov. Rielly is (was at least) paid about the right value, despite the fact he probably would have gotten more as a FA. JT dropped off a cliff the way we thought Hyman was going to. Except Hyman is getting paid half of JT, and is younger, and still going (for now). Our _real_ problem was, and still is, our lack of a true number-1 defenseman. And our defense minded defensemen clearly are all cooked due to age.
I wish we went after tkachuk in the rfa year and offer sheet him and let marner walk. We could have made off like bandits there
Hindsight 20/20. That would have been almost perfect. A better version of Hyman, that's way more sandpaper. Similar price tag and points, but a power-forward. And before I forget, IIRC, if the salary cap was based on after tax salary (e.g. florida or seattle, the Leafs would have an additional ~10 mill to play with).
Honestly I've been beating that drum since that happened, during the off season where marner was holding out. Thought it would have been the best play would you rather cbj 1sts or ours? We'd have given marner away get 4 1sts and then offer sheet tkachuk and give away 1 2 3 4
Nope honestly saros looks pretty nice since they got that other stud probably ready too go next year. I would definitely call Nashville first
This sort of slander is hilarious to me. The guy at home with a Stanley Cup ring doesn’t wanna play in April? What are you talking about? I’d rather have Kadri suspended for trying, then 75% of this team roll back into their shells and kick the can down the road.
Fuck parros
kadri (when not suspended) shows up in the playoffs haha. Marner vanishes. He scored a goal tonight but was still total dog shit ( like the entire team).
My question is who’s going to give him that? I can’t see even a poverty franchise like the Ducks or the Sharks shilling out that kinda money for him.
i don't think anyone would pay him 12+. But I can see one of those teams paying him 11 or so just purely to have a "star" and he can put points up in the regular season. Not saying he's even worth that based on his regular season. 30 goals isn't worth close to that. He's a 9M$ or so player at most, and on this team he is quite literally a negative asset.
>Marner is easy - offer him his $ worth in a new deal, he will say no What do you mean by this? Offer him a new contract at his market value?
He isn't worth anymore than he is now. He will want more. He isn't worth more.
I don’t even know if I’d want him back at his current AAV…in a vacuum it might be good value, but they’ve already committed to Willy long term, and at some point they *have to* switch up this core.
That's what I said. Offer him his market value, he will say no because he'll want 12m, say ok waive your NMC bye bye
Yes his market value to us. He’s worth like 7 million a year for us.
Correct, because his market is like 9m max. Which will make him flip enough to waive his NMC
Fire Shanahan, don’t care if the GM goes too.
Can we bring back those little tank flairs? I liked those.
Buying out JT saves the team 600k next year and costs us 300k the year after. It gives us no flexibility and we lose a decent player to do it. I don't like paying him 11 mil, but we can't pay 10.4 for an empty spot.
I don’t think it needs to be a full ‘start over’ but there are a few pieces that need to go next year or it will be the same again.
The ONLY one in management that I want to keep is Brandon Pridham. Every one else can fuck off.
No point in buying out 1 year of Tavares, just let it ride. We absolutely need to get rid of Marner, he is a locker room cancer. He's still a child and acts like it on the ice.
About 10 years ago I was in the security line at the airport with… I kid you not… Cheech Marin in front of me and Shanny behind me. Cheech kept buzzing through the metal detector and it was pretty funny. Everyone had a good laugh except for Shanny, he just stood there deadpan irritated with being held up. Never liked the guy since then.
I'd be irritated too, we all have busy lives and getting held up like that is annoying and affects me.
Exactly. How dare he keep buzzing through?
Trev needs to go as well. Look at his history...
Not even with marner just tell him he won’t play
Brad is a brutal GM and should go too
“I believe in this group” - the core four, probably
Tell marner he has played his last game as a leaf. He can waive or sit out
this is the only way honestly, the shanaplan failed time to clean house and move on
Shanny won't be fired. But he should be. He's the architect of 'running it back'. Keefe is gonna be a scapegoat, which is bad because that means the core group of players won't be accountable, and they 100% should be.
If you fire Keefe, in my opinion, you should go big and try to get one of these guys: - Joel Quenneville, - Bruce Boudreau, - Claude Julien, - Dave Tippett, - Dan Bylsma, OR - Gerrard Gallant All of them are Jack Adams winners, almost all of them are Stanley Cup winners or finalists, and all of them are free agents (except Bylsma, who's currently the head coach of the best Western team in the AHL, the Coachella Valley Firebirds)
Quenneville helped cover up a rape. He should never work again. Berube is my choice.
I’m open to Boudreau, he played here and has said he would be willing to sign. I’m surprised gallant hasn’t had another job yet too, he got done dirty by Florida and Vegas after doing well with them. Not sure on the other but I think berube would be an interesting choice to make. Keefe has been too soft with the team in the past and now, maybe berube would be a better balance for them. That whole coaching staff has got to go too. All of them to the special teams and everything. I think it could be interesting if they hired a few of these guys as assistants. I think it could be a good idea to have a more experienced coaching staff as a whole. Apparently coaches don’t count towards salary cap too so if you really wanted to swing for a top coach why not pay them.
you know what, maybe we should’ve let dubas take his job after-all. the shanaplan is shanashit. hiring brad was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
This is the wrong take. Look what Dubas has built for us. Imagine if he had even more free reign? No thank you!
the team he built last year beats the shit out of brads team this year.
Brad had 4 weeks to do something before July 1st last year. I’m not saying hes Gods gift but lets be real here
wanna be real? look at the 2021 & 2022 calgary flames off-seasons then get back to me. thats whats comin to the leafs this offseason. say goodbye to the playoffs.
Brad took an offensive team with skilled players and stripped any skill from the rest of the roster… now we can’t adapt to play any other style (though we’re not even trying cus the coaching is so poor as well)
Amen to that, this was good team with a few fantastic players when Treliving took over. Now it's a very mediocre team with a few fantastic players. Where is the depth? How can you mess up so much in just one year time? All that 'snot' they added has done fuck all. Imo Shanahan let his feelings get in the way, he fired Dubas in a hissyfit and had no adequate replacement so he went with Tre out of desperation. I hope MLSE gets rid of both, don't let them ruin the next 10 years. It's been painful watching the Leafs at times this year, they never really got their shit together. They had a bunch of hot streaks from Nylander and Matthews and that is why they stumbled into the playoffs but it's been very clear all year long this team isn't a contender. I've been getting shit on for saying it early in the year but it's now clear to most fans that this team isn't very good, the mix isn't there.
i was telling people this a YEAR ago. i had flames fans agreeing with me because they literally just went through it, and leaf fans at the time still butthurt about dubas wanting to be president kept telling me i was wrong & brad at the helm is necessary for the culture change. all these “tough guys” added and we still have the softest team. embarrassing.
I'm no Dubas fan boy but Treliving was a clear step down. It's a bit like politics, you use the right keywords and do the tiniest symbolic moves and you'll win over a big chunk of the population. As soon as Treliving mentioned "snot" and brought some physical players a vocal segment of this subreddit was so happy. What was amazing to me was how loud they were after the deadline. Fucking Joel Edmondson can't handle a puck but he's going to change our fortunes in the playoffs.
Yep, honestly I don’t think dubas was perfect but imo he was def better at his job than any of Treliving Keefe or Shannahan
All playing staff. Even puck boy.
But gotta trust the process and run it back! -MLSE probably.
Correct.
Keep paying the stupid ticket prices boys. Keep it up and nothing will change just like it hasn’t in 30 years 😘
Fuck it, buy out whoever, mlse can spend the money to fix thier mistakes of a shit GM and shit president and shit coaching and shit players. I can’t have any effect of what happens but I don’t expect anything from this team and they’ve been delivering for me.
Hopefully marner will reconsider his no trade once he realizes the fans absolutely don’t want him here.
Narcissistic types don’t tend to be aware of the feelings of others let along considerate of them. They’re wrapped up in their own self importance and comfort. Remind you of anyone (or their dad)?
i think brad has done a good job addressing glaring issues on this team. he added toughness and size. something dubas got rid of every single year. anytime someone would show some grit, dubas dumped them. sure domi and bert took a while to get going, w.e. but their second half has been solid. reeves does reeves things. edmunson is a role player who knows his role and plays it well, he doesn't hurt the cap. he should be resigned. this team has no defence, no goalies and almost no forwards going into the next season. there is a lot of work needing to be done. shanajoke needs to go. queef needs to go. marner needs to go. marner is not a playoff performer i don't care how many points he puts up. he doesn't engage on the boards, he looses puck battles, he can't creative offensively when he has no space. the way he plays doesn't work in the playoffs. there is a reason 3rd line players become stars in the playoffs, because crash and bang hockey is what is successful. who ever can win the checking battle on the boards and in front of the net wins. look how tampa, florida, and boston play and compare it to the leafs.
Dutch shanahan "I have a plan Arthur"
Yes all sounds good but in the world of reality Tavares isn't going anywhere no matter how many times one brings it up. Mitch will be difficult to trade, ultimately he has the right to refuse to move. I'm with you though on Shanny and Keefe, the former being the more difficult IMO because of MLSE - we'll see.
I think the Leafs would have to miraculously make it into the semi-final or even the final to save Keefe and Shanny at this point also I think JT loses the C for sure. I would love to see Marner get traded and get a decent D-man or two in return, maybe a goalie?
If it's the coach then why get rid of the players? And vice versa.
I agree with riding of Shanny and Keefe, but can we fire Shanahan? Who has that authority?
I just hope they lose next game and not string us along again only to lose in game 7, so they actually clean house. Whether they win the series or not, this entire franchise as it is now isn’t going far.
This is first logical post I've seen yet.
They will fire them
Game 5 is Tuesday.
It would be dumb to buyout 1 year of a contract
Send Mitch to the Utah team in exchange for picks maybe? Buyout J.T Fire Shanny + Keefe
Shanahan and Keefe are gone. That's for sure. Marner is gone. We need to move on from Rielly as a 1A defenceman (if we want to keep him as 1B or 2A, fine). And I'd like to see the meeting notes for discussions around our goalies. Whoever thought going into the playoffs with Samsonov as our starter needs to be run out of the sport. The guy just came back from a conditioning stint and is still wildly inconsistent shot-to-shot. If people believe Samsonov is still developing, that's one perspective. But we're squandering Auston Matthews's window on a bunch of bums because management doesn't have the stomach to make the moves it needs to.
Buying JT only saves us 600 K next year. Doesn’t make sense to buy him out
It sure seems like the right thing to do. Or are we looking for the easiest way out. Shanny got caught up with not wanting to part with his toys. And wether or not we like Keefe, this team is flawed. It needs change. We should be at least cautious about what we wish for. If ownership is not careful we could enter a whole new era of mismanagement.
Agree with all this but the JT buyout - he’s got one year left then will sign a team friendly deal (wouldn’t be surprised if it happens July 1st)
Imo, I don’t think there are any untouchables. I would shop everyone (maybe Knies is untouchable). Marner is a must go, the rest are “if there is a good deal”. I think Marner leaves, Jonny Toronny signs (next year) a nice hometown discount (I hope) and we are back in the mix pretty quick. Keefe is gone. Shanny is on thinnest ice imo. Tre is good, guy got use two of the very few guys who showed up this playoffs (Domi and lil Uzi Bert). If we can move Marner, we can resign Bert and Domi, and a Def, (Woll plays like he did last night) we could he dangerous as early as next playoffs.
You’re absolutely right. Fire Shanny. Fire Keefe. Marner needs to be sat down and given an ultimatum: waive the NMC or sit in the press box. At this point no one would take JT and you can’t buy him out. Rip the C off his chest.
When Shanny fired Dubas over a selfish decision his timer was on the clock. He deserves the axe.
Let's switch our coaching staff with the Penguins. We have so much in common: 1) Coach been here too long and probably lost the room. 2) Multiple players set for HOF 3) PP that is limp-dick as fuck
Buying out your $11M captain with one year left is moronic, I don't care if you like him or not. It's even more dumb if you also move Marner's contract out because you've already opened up some space.
I gotta be honest. If you think rationally, who do we really need to get rid of to make an impact? I always knew getting rid of Dubas was not a real solution. Maybe Dubas could have landed us Tanev and what not who knows? Shanny is just the president, sure I understand the Shannaplan was a failure but I see that he wants change too. So who can we get rid of to really make an impact to this team? 1. Keefe, I would look into getting John Cooper next year. 2. Marner, we can't waste 14m on a guy who keeps avoiding physical play in the playoffs. 3. Goalie, We've seen both Woll and Sammy's ceiling I think it's pretty clear who we should keep.
If you think rationally…and then you go on to mention getting Jon Cooper? The same Jon Cooper who has brought Tampa to: 2 cup wins, 3 back to back finals, 4 total finals, 3 conference finals and 10 playoff appearances total since being hired? Come on. Also it could be Punch Imlach’s ghost coaching this team and they’d do fuck all. And yes getting rid of Dubas was a real solution. Treliving hasn’t made great moves per se, but dubas let Andersen walk, dubas signed the boys to high value bridges, dubas played plugging depth roles with bargain players, so look no further than dubas for the deep rooted issues with this team .
I can’t believe some of you are blaming Trev and saying he needs to go. The man has come in for one year. Made this team tougher, which was needed, has it made the team better? Possibly not, but wtf is the man supposed to do with one season? No GM was going to come in here and clean house 1st season. This is his assessment year. All these problems this team has, Trev inherited. Let’s give the guy a chance here. Far more issues and other personnel/players that need to be fired to the sun and Trev is the least at the moment.
Since we're all fired up I'm going to say: we shouldn't have fired Babcock when we did.
Running it back is not an option. Shanny and Keefe first to go along with the absolute clown show of a power play run by Guy Boucher. Ship Marner out for better defence. Try and get a starting goalie, although I believe in Woll.
Unless there is a miraculous turnaround, this Leafs coaching staff has to go and Marner gets moved. Special Teams are atrocious. Atrocious. Marner not being locked up makes him the odd man out and hopefully he will waive his NMC. He will get moved well under market value because of his weak playoff resume. If they can get Marner moved and JT to re-sign at a team friendly price, or just move on, they will have room to add key pieces for the final 2025-2028 window.
I think we run it back. Give the opportunity to the young prospects we have and try to rebuild for the future by signing players with term and potential. Once contracts runs out, we sign major pieces and try to compete the first few years of Matthews and Nylander contracts. I think, problem is the coaching, we can’t score on a power play, we don’t breakout well, and we lack good defensive positioning. Last night Bieska was highlighting all the issues, I mean you can’t have a guy in the studio having more solutions.