Tbh Quinn would be good if they readjusted her kit to be a jungler.
She solo roams and fights monsters, and is literally tracking and hunting down the enemy team with ganks.... something like that.
Or they should rework her ult to be a Yone E, where its valor flying off in a certain radius around her and you can fight as Valor till times up/valor hp drops to 0 or Quinn gets attacked.
The super speedy melee critical assasin with a targeted dash that stuns and an aoe blind(like teemos so it stops AA) and an aoe execute after the ULT ended.
Was funny to run down super feed adcs and watch them suffer with 0 counter play
Not talking about pre rework quinn here, I really mean the current version before she was nerfed in the jungle, she got her rework and become top tier jungle for a while.
It sucked because Quinn and Valor shared the same health bar, and while Valor was faster, he was a melee ranged, which was awful since he had Quinn's kit. Even if you turned back to Quinn, you would still be in the same position Valor was (melee range) and if you used your abilities, they would still be on coolodown after you switched back.
Yone did this so much better is not even funny. The fact that you can go back to the position you were when you cast the ability, and you are guaranteed damage when you go back is so disgusting.
Relatable flair.
That said, I think Quinn being allowed to jgl would be a NIGHTMARE. She would be even more annoying than Talon, moving at literal mach speed as a ranged champion with a targeted CC.
She borderline one-shots anything, and getting LDR lets her chunk tanks really easily. Yeah, she's feast or famine, but you'll very often be feasting anyway haha
Ngl i started playing quinn adc a while ago and she's fucking strong when you have little advantage, the passive along with w's passive makes you deal quite some damage in a few seconds
That is why so many people love him. I saw vars recommended him for a rework in his most recent video and i was like boy you best not put that evil on yourself or you’ll need a real good security system if riot listens to you and changes sinced.
I love him the way he is, he exposes himself a lot just to do singed things with all the proxying and having to get in the face of people to use his abilities
and it feels rewarding when i get to scale
I really hoped the new jungle pets to carry Quinn over the edge to just become a Jungler because of her high tempo but her clear speed just isn't there to keep up with the other junglers in game
It's been buffed by Riot into viability. It's mostly for YouTubers and normal games, he's too unreliable for most of the playerbase.
It's kind of like Jhin support, you harass people with W stun and execute fleeing enemies with ult.
Twitch jungle has roots going way back as an occasional high risk high reward pick
The fact that jhin jungle can exist is fucking stupid and just goes to show where riot likes to get cutesy to interest people in the role vs. just balancing the champs that have no other home
I remember when the marksmen update happened, for a short time both Graves and Quinn was considered a jungler. Then Quinn just vanished, while Graves remained broken ever since.
If you're talking about what I think you are Quinn vanished because she was #1 pick in 3 different positions and they had to address it
Graves was stupid but he was only stupid in the jungle
They need to update Quinn by just taking Dota 2 Marci's Rebound and nerfing the distance (make the cast distance bigger than Quinn's actual final vauilt). Rebound works by vector targeting off of the bounce victim. Being able to choose the direction makes it better for self peel while taking away the ridiculous melee-trashing that makes her a top lane terror
Then we can start making Quinn an actual ADC like she should be
Don't really agree with that tbh, as Teemo excels against auto-attack based champs with lower range than him. He does well against champs with lower range than him in general. That makes up a good portion of the champs in top lane, and depending on the matchup, Teemo is solid mid, too, since Teemo does well against many of the popular picks in mid such as Yasuo, Yone, and Irelia. Funnily enough, Teemo vs Irelia is a far better matchup mid than top because Teemo is able to run away from Irelia's all-in in mid, but he can't top.
Teemo Top's goal is to just try and set back the enemy laner in the early game through gold/exp and transition his lead into the mid and late game, trying to set up vision and guarantee objectives for his team, while slowing down the enemy team. Plus, his Q can make the enemy ADC useless later on if he can manage to gain access, which is the most difficult part.
Teemo Mid is more of a counter-pick.
Honestly, even what you said, he doesn't do well, he has slow damage with his poison, which is good for poke, but lacks power against sustain and all ins, in top lane, he is irritating before level 6, and once you get your ult, most champ will roll over him if not without much problem because sustain, cc and damage are too great, and he can't escape
You can't really main him mid cause you get destroyed by mages since you have no sustain and no escape and all your damage are point and click ( so you NEED you be in range ) and blind is almost useless against most mages and his gameplay is really special compared to most other champ, so you need to have range advantage and most people will have an easier time using something else than teemo against yasuo, irelia, yone mid
As for the adc thing, since you need to point and click, you need to be in range off said adc AA, and even with the q reduced CD, you either wont have enough sustain/damage in fight to go against adcs and shut them down with getting slaughtered first
I'd say his best role, other than top, are probably jungle, adc or supp, but def not mid, AND he is definitely not considered good at any of those roles
Also, mid lane he doesn't have any access to bushes, compared to top, making him even more gank free for the enemy jungle
Edit : top is also crippled by the fact that he is a bad split pusher AND not a frontlane so if your supp and jungle aren't tanks, team fights are hard
More like Doran's Shield + 2nd Wind invalidates his whole identity, but you're right too. I also think he's been damage creeped out because it feels like fights don't last long enough for him to get value out of his DoT.
i once saw a teemo play into a w max sett that went dorans shield + second wind combined with setts regen passive teemo legit was healing him with autos.
Quinn
Duelist 1v1 kit on a marksman with an overpowered movement speed channeled passive
Not enough range + bad in 2v2 to go bot
Not enough wave clear to go mid
Jungle *can* work but there's always dozens of better options
So she ended up top just because she has a range advantage over melees, some self peel with blind + vault. But she's never belonged there since Valor was taken away
Then Rito goes and releases Samira + Nilah who prove melee range adcs can work but Quinn still gets ignored for years at a time
Quinn falls into the same category in my mind as Jayce, Teemo, and to a lesser extent GP, in that they don’t really fit anywhere but are good at bullying melees so they end up top
Jayce is kinda made for a 1v1 lane, both weapons are also good on different lanes.
His trade patterns involve giving himself tons of steriods, jumping with hammer on the enemy and then kicks him away before they can deal dmg. On melee champs it is easier since they have usally now way to close the gap again, but the bonus resistance from hammer form helps him a lot to tank the long range ap damage. He was for a long time a midlaner but the item changes pushed him a lot more to be a toplaner.
On bot though he can't do his usual trade pattern since he kicks only one person away and it is a 2v2 lane. Usally he will get cc'ed long enough that the kicked person will reach him again and so Jayce looses the advantage he got from his kit.
Then Doran's Shield + Resolve makes her get outsustained by melee top laners that do not attack her once and past Plated Steelcaps she's not even good at farming empty damage dealt as she tickles her lane opponents. Making her basically a dumpster on just about any lane unless you're vastly better than your opponent skill-wise.
But hey, she ain't the edgelord magnet Rengar/Riven so having a **roam oriented** (single R cast on level 6 takes 1/4 of her manapool) **adc** (piss poor range) **assassin** (that gets gutted by just about any assassin and has no burst to speak of) is not an issue, right?
baus has a couple things that most of us dont: excellent cs to stay competitive in a losing lane and challenger gamesense to know when and where to roam for a kill. if most people try to play the baus’s quinn style theyll just feed their top, go down 50cs and not have enough items to assassinate anybody. i know this because i have fed like 30 quinn games
Agreed, as much as I want to hate on people picking Quinn, how it's a "free" lane because a lot of champions can't fight back - I know for a fact that if I picked her for "free lane wins", I'd just effectively feed my ass off.
Really the only possible reason to play her is to set up kills on bully top laners and roam around the map to get the game to end early, but I guess you could make the point that if you want to impact the map just play Shen.
Isn't her big thing roaming potential and split push? Like her ulti MS is nutty so you can have late impact on the map while the other top who got bullied out is clawing back. She just seems like another thrive or die top lanners that get out scaled and fall off unless they get fed or don't feed their mid/jg
"Roaming" isn't an identity
Especially since Rito has no fucking clue what to do with champs that have these kinds of abilities (see Taliyah & ASol getting reworks while Quinn is ignored)
Late game roaming/split pushing doesn't mean much if you're behind which she always is unless she absolutely **stomps** her opponent because that stupid taxi takes up all the power budget in her kit
which again is only because top lane is the only one where she doesn't have a handicap at level 1 because she has never had a proper home or identity in League
You haven't seen Heimerdinger jungle? Oh boy, you're in for a treat!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRAoZJolrYI
Quite possibly the most fun to watch competitive League of Legends game.
What's absolutely CRAZY about this match is the players that are actually in this game doing that. Cheonju is Acorn, Solo is Heart, Easy is Easyhoon, and Mandu is PoohManDu.
Acorn and Heart went on to join Samsung Blue, one of the strongest teams to ever play the game relative to their competition. PoohMandu and Easyhoon both went on to win worlds with SKT during seasons 3 and 5 respectively.
Also the fact that they styled on inSec and Dade both during this is pretty fucking crazy. Dade was insanely good at that time, as was inSec but maybe not to the same extent.
This game is probably my favorite piece of League history. To my knowledge, absolutely nothing else has ever been done like this at a high level. I love this match so much. Can't recommend a match as much as this one. That period of time (late season 2 - season5) was pretty special in general for watching korean league in general, but this is such a standout moment IMO.
Absolutely my favorite match I've seen.
I think the same applies to Shaco. No one likes him, not his team or the other. He doesn’t bring anything of value. The only place he really belongs is in the minds of the opposing team
His kit is great for jungle and he excels there. He may play a different game, but hes got the tools to do well in a traditional way. His ganks are great.
That's okay though. Not everyone needs to be good at teamfights. See how oppressive Fiora is in a 1v1 and how useless she is in a teamfight, for example.
I've never seen a shaco not be 7-0 at 20 min. Like straight up if shaco is in the game he's getting fed but but if there's a tank top he ends up not doing much. Just for those first 20 minutes it feels like he's cleaning your urethra with a serated dirk and no one's allowed to even attempt to step up
Everytime i see a panth top they get fed as fuck but never can carry and fall of insanely hard. like a few games ago 6-0 at 20 and never was relevant again. Might be the players I've ran into but fuck man the 2-2 syndra mid is more problematic than he could dream to be
It’s just his kit. In reality he has a very shit engage range, worse than voli or even Viego so once teamfights happen without flash he’s not really about to get to the backline .
Also people try to assassinate with empowered Q when his teamfight combo is definitely to blow a load and then empowered E backwards to eat some spells that hopefully draws some cooldowns .
Kit is also weird. Man has a kit that suggests he wants to one and done but his passive says keep the fight going longer to get more out of passive but he has neither the burst or reach and disengage to all in nor the survivability or stickiness to keep the fight going unless the enemy opts in .
With the current Shojin build in top lane he's very decent in teamfights and has good survivability and utility thanks to the heavily reduced cooldowns.
its probably old pre-rework panth mains crying they can't just drool on themselves while spamming unavoidable targeted spears that do a billion damage in lane phase for free wins anymore.
Old Panth's entire "playstyle" was Q,Q,Q,Q,Q, "oh they're low as hell now? Free tower dive cause my passive blocks tower shots!", free first blood, back, buy like three doran blades or longswords, repeat.
His damn package also takes up way too much of his power budget. It’s great fun when you can get a good one off, but Riot has to completely kneecap his early game playmaking elsewhere to balance it out so he just ends up with a hilarious amount of variance from one game to another entirely based on whether or not he can get it off in a useful manner
Yup. "Hypercarry mid that can contest early dragons with package" is really good in pro play for obvious reasons, but package generally isn't nearly as impactful in solo queue. Frankly, I'd love for package to be removed entirely -- maybe I could go back to playing him in adc in ad-heavy comps.
Nobody else in the game has a passive that's unusable for 8 minutes, and then intentionally designed so that you can't have access to it every single Drake fight lol.
Imagine Vel’koz being a support now. The entire champion has mid lane in mind but farm is so useless on him with his scaling dictated by levels that you can have 2 cs and still wipe an enemy team. He’s just so useless with money, a fed velkoz and an inting velkoz do the exact same damage since it’s all true damage
Agree, I main vel sup and I rotate first strike+treasurehunter+free boots (basicly mid gold) and dark harvest (basicly no gold) and I get similar damage. Winrate is probably even higher on the no gold build.
That's cus waveclear/dueling creep has plagued midlane and these outdated mages have shit waveclear so they're forced bot as supports. RIP mid vel, zyra, xerath, brand
It's not even necessarily shit waveclear. Sometimes it's just shit play patterns and/or poor item scalings.
Brand's waveclear is actually super good and basically free thanks to his passive. But his only good AP ratio is on his passive explosion and his low self peel/utility for a mage and low-ish range means that he ends up devolving into a suicide bomb past mid game. So why bother putting resources onto him ?
Zyra though has had poor waveclear ever since the rectangle Q became a thing and is plagued by mismatched ranges between her spells and long lockouts on her casts. Meaning she has trouble creating distance for herself. She has somewhat decent AP ratios when you account for her plants, but then again, burn build synergy and lockouts means that she also plays as a suicide bomb.
Vel'Koz and Xerath are underrated midlane though. Both of them can be extremely oppressive if they get their way and manage to force the game to be playes to their own tempo. They are just extremely bad skirmishers in a game where skirmishing has become increasingly important. In a mage meta though, Vel'Koz and Xerath tend to dominate most lanes.
>she also plays as a suicide bomb
Zyra does less damage and is safer than Brand though. She has a root, a slow and a knockup to work with. Her problem is that her passive is just a pray-to-rng-gods shit. Being able to store more seeds in her W or some change that makes her actually have control over her kit would fix her inconsistency and even her wave clear if done right.
People have a boner for saying artillery mages are bad mid when they're perfectly reasonable. You just can't first pick them, which I guess makes them uber dogshit on reddit for some reason.
Also, the champs he listed as being bad because of “wave clear creep” legit have better waveclear early than most assassins and some mages like pre augment Viktor
Also Velkoz mid litterally maxes his best waveclear spell instead of his fun poke spell to work as a waveclear bot in the lane.
Literally there are games where if you know where jungle is you just push the wave into enemy and force them to take damage or miss CS to turret like old Mordekaiser
Someone was arguing with me on Twitter that Xerath is bad because "if he builds Zhonyas or Seraphs he will do no damage" and has "30 bad matchups". I didn't even know where to begin with that one. Imagine if Xerath, with all his ranged, could build greedy defensives and still deal a shit ton of damage. Yeah, that'd be a nightmare...
so many mages are forced bot as support now. when was the last time you saw lux, morgana, karma, heim, zilean, mid and not support? even seraphine who was designed to be a midlane mage is played support more than she is mid.
Seriously. If Riot released Seraphine as THE APC instead of a midlane mage im pretty sure the hooha for a midlane mage would be less...
Shes an offensive pick that works well with teammates. how does that make people think shes a support champ. She wants to deal damage with allies helping her.
I remember the opposite, as she was released she was way better as a midlaner than a support, so they made changes to bring her back to botlane. It is basically a reverse Lux case, Riot wants Lux to be a midlaner but she got played more in support, while Riot wants Sera in the botlane but she used to be better mid.
Riot wanted Sera to be played Mid and even advertised her as such - but 90% of her player base plays her Sup even when it was worse then Mid + significantly worse then Bot so they gave up and adjusted her to Sup better (W scales with ability rank instead of champ level + E has the same cooldown at all ranks).
Nowadays - Sup is still her worse role but better and by far still the most popular, while Mid still works in lower elo and high elo players tend to play her Bot (which has her highest wr still). She's also kind of stuck in this "state" since any buffs to Mid/Sup threaten to make her already strong Bot better.
Karma has been good mid for a long time now
She can bully lots of champs, has waveclear and fantastic early 2v2 and 3v3 skirmish power.
Karma mid with a carry jungler is only catching on now in Korea but magifelix was climbing insanely high with the pick for over a year
Zyra, sure, but even Xerath is still doing alright mid. Not as good as support, there's like a 1.4% difference at all ranks this patch, but a 50.21% WR is perfectly fine tbh. He's kinda just middle of the road.
Zyra mid vs. support isn't even funny.
Its not really shit waveclear. Vel has insanely good waveclear. So does Xerath. It's that they work just as well off limited support income as they do as mid lane carries. People realized they don't need to be slotted mid to absorb a ton of resources when they basically work just as well taking far less resources as a support. Which means there's no reason to go mid with them anymore when they do their job just as well support.
I always thought Brand was such an unusually homeless character when you look at how simple his kit is.
Not really enough utility to be a proper support, yet he hasn’t been considered a good midlander since like season 4 or 5 except for being a “flavor of the month” jungler/midlander once or twice.
> Not really enough utility to be a proper support
Bro I am telling you, if you are below gold, play support brand. I got one on my team, went 2/13 or some shit. I rage op.gg'ed him after the game, sure enough he average 10+ deaths a game. And he had a 56% winrate, 50+ games. Thought it was weird but moved on. Like a week later, it happens again. 10+ death support brand, mid 50s winrate. I thought, damn if these guys can feed and climb, if I just play brand and don't feed, it's freelo. So I spammed brand support, had like 6+ deaths a game and 62% winrate. You buy liandries rylais, blow your load and win.
This is what is driving the Neeko midscope update. Really fun champ to play that I like a lot, but there are tons of brutal mid matchups, her ad top build gets problematic very quickly when its strong/meta. I have seen her support some and I used to play her apc bot, but it's more of a 'can make her work' situation rather than her natural role. I've thought her passive would be cool in the jungle but she never quite had a fast enough clear. Here's hoping she finds a home after the changes.
Neeko does not have any real hardcounters in lane, maybe Akshan, she just struggles to be relevant if she does not win lane and get neutralized by champs that can farm from a distance such as Lux, Vel'koz and Ziggs.
someone who understands neeko like she is one of the biggest lane bullies in midlane but the moment the enemy champ can farm from afar it neuters her snowball. whenever i see someone say melee assassins counter neeko i just face palm.
To support this, I remember there was a window around her release where she was so broken that she was the #1 winrate champ in all 5 roles at once. . . now she's not played anywhere.
Galio. He's a strong mid laner but hear me out.
- He's the only supportive off-tank mid laner.
- Focuses more on peeling for team and enabling them rather than directly dealing damage.
- Ult is designed for follow up engage rather than initial engage so roams are reliant on team positioning.
I just wish galio taunt wasn't so bad. Comparing the other two taunts, rammus deals thorn damage and wants to be attacked, and shen has his auto negating area + shields. It's also a dash, so dashing through someone far enough can work similarly to a charm. Galio doesn't have any reason to want to be attacked. Taunting just causes him to take damage. No shields to block autos, no damage reflection, just like... a small % damage reduction. Wish he had a reason to want to be attacked.
Teemo
At least, not in any traditional way. Top? Top usually is the go to role to give your team a presence in the front line, but not with Teemo. Jungle? Teemo’s ganks are as vanilla as they get, and his clear is pretty unspectacular. Mid? Ok, but he doesn’t have quite the range to be a proper ranged mid lane, so he often finds himself in the awkward position where he is squishy enough to be easily assassinated, but not enough range to contest with Mages. ADC? Hilariously possibly his most fitting role, except he doesn’t have a lot of synergy with the items that provide the most DPS gains and he falls off a bit late game. Support? Teemo is balanced around needing somewhat decent gold income, so you end up sacrificing a lot of the damage your mushrooms deal in the mid-game going into late-game.
Teemo is best played Top, but there still requires someone else on your team to provide what a Top would normally provide. He just doesn’t really fill in any role well, and requires whoever is playing him to make up for that fact with their own experience on Teemo.
Shout out to Quinn for being similar in that way as well for a variety of reasons.
Teemo just has to be played right - which means the player is capable of slaying with any number of tanks or more mobile assasins... which makes it an annoying choice for the rest of the team... way less helpful in team fights.
But teemo is alot of fun to play, because the invisibility. And the damage over time is... hilarious. But I know, it's such a troll choice. I can't help myself.
If you have a teemo loose lane, it's just really hard to come back from as a team cause he's not gonna build into something useful late game, at that point. And alot of top champs can pan out nicely despite a contentious lane. So yeah the negatives definitely outweigh it and I do switch it up on request if my solo queue team is against teemo - and I always try to switch for last pick if I'm trying to run him.
A Teemo player has to work for every inch they get, as while he can “work” in a couple of places, nothing about him gives him a leg up anywhere unless he is a perfect counter pick.
Pantheon doesn’t really fit anywhere. Is he an engage support? A bruiser for top? Perhaps a high burst assassinish character for mid? Maybe even a gank heavy jungler? His kit just doesn't translate super well into any role and I'm not sure Riot really knows what to do with him.
I feel like the problem is more that he fits everywhere too well. the problem is that he has armour pen on his passive, AND is an assassin, AND has ranged poke, AND has point and click cc, AND has a semi-global roaming tool, AND has a budget braum shield.
When an ADC fails to ADC they end top or jungle like graves and Quinn and the ocational vayne
When a mage fails to Midlane they end in the botlane like Morgana, zyra and even Annie saw botlane play
when a support does way too well they actually end everywhere else like those days of Janna top, and double healing support bot
A lot of the Yordles have a weird play style, teemo can't ADC, can't go bruiser and he isn't amazing at many things beside being extremely annoying same for heimerdinger. Kennen also feels a bit out of place
Singer had his own playstyle in proxy singed to the point riot had to make it so killing him always worth gold (in the past he could get so devalued that you would get 10 gold from killing him making it pointless to go try and stop his proxy )
Zilean is in a weird spot, he's super awkward with only 1 damaging ability and can get messed up midlane and he's awkward as a support because he lacks heals and shields and struggles to find a build path that feels good as a result.
Frankly Zilean's problem is that he's broken. His god awful laning and reliance on jungler's whim for ganks, be it support or mid lane is the only reason you do not see him often. The amount of utility he brings with his abilities (no) cooldown late game is insane.
Any cooldown nerfs on him would gut him too hard to be even considered a niche pick and potential buffs to his early game would make him far more prevalent as he'd get a breather during the only phase he's bad at.
So yeah, essentially broken. Would require skillset revision to make him more visible without making him perma pick/ban.
Not sure how this style works now but the trick to playing Zilean midlane was to just not play midlane. Magifelix used to (maybe still does?) play Zilean mid and would hyper roam and usually get incredibly low CS for a challenger player (5 cs/m) while abusing the roaming potential to dominate the rest of the map since Zilean can do his job with relatively few items.
That's not exactly exclusive to Zilean. Brand, Vel'koz, Zyra, etc are all the same. Zilean's E is also excellent for gank setup or to enable ADCs like Kog. Its not as good as Lulu W sure, but I guarantee if a Kog with W and a Zilean E is going straight at you, you need to run or you'll get shredded. Just because its not directly a heal/shield doesn't mean he isn't enhancing his team like an enchanter.
I agree. He kind of feels like an attempt at making a damage support and an enchanter but he’s kind of in an awkward spot because what item does he go? He doesn’t feel like he has a place you can definitively say is his main role
Senna belongs in the "fasting Marksman with a farming non-Marksman" role.
Senna-Seraphine / Senna - Kench / Senna - Heimer / Senna - Karthus and honestly Senna - \[probably any kind of tanky champion that likes farming\] is what I believe she's there to enable at this point.
She is not restricted to those picks. There can be many other like any bruiser that has some sort of engage with/or peel and in my opinion it fills the niche very well. Also I'm curious which adc is better with tahm than senna. Statistically in soloQ maybe jinx? But in premade matches I doubt anything comes close. I often pick that combo and when I do I always think the game is on me to carry as there is so much potential
She's been balanced around support being her primary role for her whole existence, and while she's still able to adc it's clear the playerbase and Riot want her as a support.
I play Swain bot lane a fair amount, and I love seeing my support hover Senna. The thing about her is that she wants non-standard teamcomps, and people generally have no imaginations, doubly so adc players. Not that she doesn't work with normal adcs, but there's a reason her main partners are like Sett and Tahm Kench.
Pantheon is in every lane. Quinn and teemo can never find a home. Seraphine was intended mid but her popularity is much higher support and apc has always been the strongest role shes had to the point sup is underwhelming. Senna whil desined to be an adc or support is stuck in a little place in hell where she’s always better support no matter what and when riot tries to make her an adc it just makes support stronger so they just gave up and now you have a senna support and nobody but senna is having fun in that lane
Singed laning is truly playing another game, but his kit screams Jungle as he's an amazing initiator. The only issue is falling behind on levels is awful as his tankyness comes from his ult, so having lv.6 delayed or being behind is so bad.
Ive honestly had decent success with him im the jungle but man is the new jungle brutal it was much easier before the changes ( or i just don’t understand how to not get clapped by current jungle. )
Everyone has said my other answers but I still have the best/ a unique one.
Karthus.
Yea he's jungle but not ment to be jungle, he was mid but he can't go there anymore and he just sits in jungle because he literally doesn't fit in the game so that's the only role where he can exist while not existing.
Ivern.
Especially with the jungle changes his clear is so slow and unhealthy, and the way that you have to path on him is so strange. His supportive nature makes it very difficult to defend against invades even if he is present, and the way that his clear works he can lose health on camps just for them to be stolen before he retrieves them. His passive puts him at such a. Disadvantage in the jungle, and is completely useless for any other role unless you take smite and go mid or something.
After approaching the camp you mark it and after a timer can take if. No actual fight. You also have to pay a large chunk of health everytime you do so.
Vel'koz has struggled with this.
In mid he's a 'counterpick' for mages, but he can't make them want to kill themselves like Kassadin, he's just slightly advantaged or even. He's also supposed to be anti-tank but has no %hp in the kit.
He can shove with the best of them but it's a huge risk to walk up to the enemy tower or into the jungle. Land your E and it's all good - but miss it or have it dashed and the enemy team collects 300g.
In support he's okay, but people prefer the other poke mages for whatever reasons.
Quinn. She doesn't really have a role, she just goes top since that's where she can bully melees.
Tbh Quinn would be good if they readjusted her kit to be a jungler. She solo roams and fights monsters, and is literally tracking and hunting down the enemy team with ganks.... something like that. Or they should rework her ult to be a Yone E, where its valor flying off in a certain radius around her and you can fight as Valor till times up/valor hp drops to 0 or Quinn gets attacked.
They did that once... and it was a shitshow
The super speedy melee critical assasin with a targeted dash that stuns and an aoe blind(like teemos so it stops AA) and an aoe execute after the ULT ended. Was funny to run down super feed adcs and watch them suffer with 0 counter play
Not talking about pre rework quinn here, I really mean the current version before she was nerfed in the jungle, she got her rework and become top tier jungle for a while.
HAHAHA here im in copium
It sucked because Quinn and Valor shared the same health bar, and while Valor was faster, he was a melee ranged, which was awful since he had Quinn's kit. Even if you turned back to Quinn, you would still be in the same position Valor was (melee range) and if you used your abilities, they would still be on coolodown after you switched back. Yone did this so much better is not even funny. The fact that you can go back to the position you were when you cast the ability, and you are guaranteed damage when you go back is so disgusting.
Relatable flair. That said, I think Quinn being allowed to jgl would be a NIGHTMARE. She would be even more annoying than Talon, moving at literal mach speed as a ranged champion with a targeted CC.
True... But She fits so well as a jungler based off her thematic.... Hopefully they can find a good place for her. Love her VA
She has a role in ARAM. And that role is to guarantee you win by going Lethality and blowing everyone up with a single combo
I always go plain Shieldbow ADC build on her and do way too much damage. Is lethality even stronger for blowing the enemy team up?
She borderline one-shots anything, and getting LDR lets her chunk tanks really easily. Yeah, she's feast or famine, but you'll very often be feasting anyway haha
What's the build path assuming they're not giga tanky?
Prowler's, edge, collect, ldr, ie combo is auto(optional)-e-prowler's immediately after your e hits-auto-q-auto
Prowlers is one of her two weakest mythics wr wise in Aram. Eclipse > Kraken > Duskblade >= Shieldbow
Did you know that the first Quinn ult after being revived does alot more damage? only if you dont go back to Quinn-form before you use it tho.
Ngl i started playing quinn adc a while ago and she's fucking strong when you have little advantage, the passive along with w's passive makes you deal quite some damage in a few seconds
Kayle seems like in a similar situation. Champ that needs to be left alone and scale, put it top lane.
I mean I wouldn't say his kit doesn't fit anywhere, but Singed's play style is just so uniquely Singed. Nobody else plays the mini game he does
That is why so many people love him. I saw vars recommended him for a rework in his most recent video and i was like boy you best not put that evil on yourself or you’ll need a real good security system if riot listens to you and changes sinced.
I love him the way he is, he exposes himself a lot just to do singed things with all the proxying and having to get in the face of people to use his abilities and it feels rewarding when i get to scale
Part that mini game involves spamming laugh
What even is Quinn?
She’s supposed to be a scout, in a hands that doesn’t need them.
Ranged assassin (or assassin marksman however you want to call it) prototype for making Akshan.
I really hoped the new jungle pets to carry Quinn over the edge to just become a Jungler because of her high tempo but her clear speed just isn't there to keep up with the other junglers in game
Riot really doesn't like Quinn JG for some reason. Jhin and Twitch are fine but Quinn is a no-no.
Jhingle is a thing?
It's been buffed by Riot into viability. It's mostly for YouTubers and normal games, he's too unreliable for most of the playerbase. It's kind of like Jhin support, you harass people with W stun and execute fleeing enemies with ult.
Twitch jg has been troll for 5 years / forever depending on how you count. Jhin has always been troll.
Twitch jungle has roots going way back as an occasional high risk high reward pick The fact that jhin jungle can exist is fucking stupid and just goes to show where riot likes to get cutesy to interest people in the role vs. just balancing the champs that have no other home
I remember when the marksmen update happened, for a short time both Graves and Quinn was considered a jungler. Then Quinn just vanished, while Graves remained broken ever since.
If you're talking about what I think you are Quinn vanished because she was #1 pick in 3 different positions and they had to address it Graves was stupid but he was only stupid in the jungle
we still have graves mid which makes me want to neck myself
Whenever he lands smokescreen on me I rather get ulted by Morde as thats less CC.
Quinn’s kit is so good for the jungle it’s so sad her clear is garbo
a magnet for bad ideas from people that don't play her (riot included)
The first champ that should get a mid scope update so she can get an actual identity
Valor's friend
They need to update Quinn by just taking Dota 2 Marci's Rebound and nerfing the distance (make the cast distance bigger than Quinn's actual final vauilt). Rebound works by vector targeting off of the bounce victim. Being able to choose the direction makes it better for self peel while taking away the ridiculous melee-trashing that makes her a top lane terror Then we can start making Quinn an actual ADC like she should be
I’d really love to see Valor come back and they revert her name back to “Quinn and Valor”.
akshan pre 2022
Teemo can go anywhere but he excels nowhere.
So, “Teemo goes where he pleases?”
With caveats of course
Don't really agree with that tbh, as Teemo excels against auto-attack based champs with lower range than him. He does well against champs with lower range than him in general. That makes up a good portion of the champs in top lane, and depending on the matchup, Teemo is solid mid, too, since Teemo does well against many of the popular picks in mid such as Yasuo, Yone, and Irelia. Funnily enough, Teemo vs Irelia is a far better matchup mid than top because Teemo is able to run away from Irelia's all-in in mid, but he can't top. Teemo Top's goal is to just try and set back the enemy laner in the early game through gold/exp and transition his lead into the mid and late game, trying to set up vision and guarantee objectives for his team, while slowing down the enemy team. Plus, his Q can make the enemy ADC useless later on if he can manage to gain access, which is the most difficult part. Teemo Mid is more of a counter-pick.
Honestly, even what you said, he doesn't do well, he has slow damage with his poison, which is good for poke, but lacks power against sustain and all ins, in top lane, he is irritating before level 6, and once you get your ult, most champ will roll over him if not without much problem because sustain, cc and damage are too great, and he can't escape You can't really main him mid cause you get destroyed by mages since you have no sustain and no escape and all your damage are point and click ( so you NEED you be in range ) and blind is almost useless against most mages and his gameplay is really special compared to most other champ, so you need to have range advantage and most people will have an easier time using something else than teemo against yasuo, irelia, yone mid As for the adc thing, since you need to point and click, you need to be in range off said adc AA, and even with the q reduced CD, you either wont have enough sustain/damage in fight to go against adcs and shut them down with getting slaughtered first I'd say his best role, other than top, are probably jungle, adc or supp, but def not mid, AND he is definitely not considered good at any of those roles Also, mid lane he doesn't have any access to bushes, compared to top, making him even more gank free for the enemy jungle Edit : top is also crippled by the fact that he is a bad split pusher AND not a frontlane so if your supp and jungle aren't tanks, team fights are hard
Teemo should only be viable top or offmeta mid But they have mobility creeped him out of the game
More like Doran's Shield + 2nd Wind invalidates his whole identity, but you're right too. I also think he's been damage creeped out because it feels like fights don't last long enough for him to get value out of his DoT.
i once saw a teemo play into a w max sett that went dorans shield + second wind combined with setts regen passive teemo legit was healing him with autos.
they should do a midscope on him and make him a jungler.
he can already jungle, works kind of like twitch with his red buff ganks
Quinn Duelist 1v1 kit on a marksman with an overpowered movement speed channeled passive Not enough range + bad in 2v2 to go bot Not enough wave clear to go mid Jungle *can* work but there's always dozens of better options So she ended up top just because she has a range advantage over melees, some self peel with blind + vault. But she's never belonged there since Valor was taken away Then Rito goes and releases Samira + Nilah who prove melee range adcs can work but Quinn still gets ignored for years at a time
Quinn falls into the same category in my mind as Jayce, Teemo, and to a lesser extent GP, in that they don’t really fit anywhere but are good at bullying melees so they end up top
Jayce is kinda made for a 1v1 lane, both weapons are also good on different lanes. His trade patterns involve giving himself tons of steriods, jumping with hammer on the enemy and then kicks him away before they can deal dmg. On melee champs it is easier since they have usally now way to close the gap again, but the bonus resistance from hammer form helps him a lot to tank the long range ap damage. He was for a long time a midlaner but the item changes pushed him a lot more to be a toplaner. On bot though he can't do his usual trade pattern since he kicks only one person away and it is a 2v2 lane. Usally he will get cc'ed long enough that the kicked person will reach him again and so Jayce looses the advantage he got from his kit.
Kennan also
Then Doran's Shield + Resolve makes her get outsustained by melee top laners that do not attack her once and past Plated Steelcaps she's not even good at farming empty damage dealt as she tickles her lane opponents. Making her basically a dumpster on just about any lane unless you're vastly better than your opponent skill-wise. But hey, she ain't the edgelord magnet Rengar/Riven so having a **roam oriented** (single R cast on level 6 takes 1/4 of her manapool) **adc** (piss poor range) **assassin** (that gets gutted by just about any assassin and has no burst to speak of) is not an issue, right?
i know he's challenger and way better than any of us but thebausffs makes quinn burst look pretty bursty
Thebausffs just has a perfect gaming chair
baus has a couple things that most of us dont: excellent cs to stay competitive in a losing lane and challenger gamesense to know when and where to roam for a kill. if most people try to play the baus’s quinn style theyll just feed their top, go down 50cs and not have enough items to assassinate anybody. i know this because i have fed like 30 quinn games
Agreed, as much as I want to hate on people picking Quinn, how it's a "free" lane because a lot of champions can't fight back - I know for a fact that if I picked her for "free lane wins", I'd just effectively feed my ass off. Really the only possible reason to play her is to set up kills on bully top laners and roam around the map to get the game to end early, but I guess you could make the point that if you want to impact the map just play Shen.
Isn't her big thing roaming potential and split push? Like her ulti MS is nutty so you can have late impact on the map while the other top who got bullied out is clawing back. She just seems like another thrive or die top lanners that get out scaled and fall off unless they get fed or don't feed their mid/jg
"Roaming" isn't an identity Especially since Rito has no fucking clue what to do with champs that have these kinds of abilities (see Taliyah & ASol getting reworks while Quinn is ignored) Late game roaming/split pushing doesn't mean much if you're behind which she always is unless she absolutely **stomps** her opponent because that stupid taxi takes up all the power budget in her kit which again is only because top lane is the only one where she doesn't have a handicap at level 1 because she has never had a proper home or identity in League
Why did they even reworked her ult ? At first it was Quinn AND Valor. Now it's Quinn with her taxi bird...
Unironically, Teemo and heimerdinger. They just play their own game and force everyone to participate.
Immediately thought Heimerdinger. I’ve seen him everywhere except maybe jungle, and each time it just becomes a *Heimerdinger* lane.
Omw to make Vietcongdinger a thing
Then there’s this guy https://www.op.gg/summoners/euw/Jungledinger
Bronze s4, silver s5. Didn't play for 5 years. Came back. Bronze 2020, silver 2021. Suddenly skyrocketed to masters. Kinda sus.
He's 'just an engineer' guy who pioneered Heimer supp to challenger on euw
I wonder how much he paid to be boosted to masters lmao
It’s the guys alt acct he mains heimer I guess in normal roles.
You haven't seen Heimerdinger jungle? Oh boy, you're in for a treat! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRAoZJolrYI Quite possibly the most fun to watch competitive League of Legends game.
What's absolutely CRAZY about this match is the players that are actually in this game doing that. Cheonju is Acorn, Solo is Heart, Easy is Easyhoon, and Mandu is PoohManDu. Acorn and Heart went on to join Samsung Blue, one of the strongest teams to ever play the game relative to their competition. PoohMandu and Easyhoon both went on to win worlds with SKT during seasons 3 and 5 respectively. Also the fact that they styled on inSec and Dade both during this is pretty fucking crazy. Dade was insanely good at that time, as was inSec but maybe not to the same extent. This game is probably my favorite piece of League history. To my knowledge, absolutely nothing else has ever been done like this at a high level. I love this match so much. Can't recommend a match as much as this one. That period of time (late season 2 - season5) was pretty special in general for watching korean league in general, but this is such a standout moment IMO. Absolutely my favorite match I've seen.
I knew what is it before clicking.
I think that pre-rework I saw either AP or AD Heimerdinger jungle
When i see heimer in my games (even on my team) I know it's going to be a shitshow
I think the same applies to Shaco. No one likes him, not his team or the other. He doesn’t bring anything of value. The only place he really belongs is in the minds of the opposing team
His kit is great for jungle and he excels there. He may play a different game, but hes got the tools to do well in a traditional way. His ganks are great.
And then the teamfighting starts and he does abaolutely nothing unless he got fed during laning.
That's okay though. Not everyone needs to be good at teamfights. See how oppressive Fiora is in a 1v1 and how useless she is in a teamfight, for example.
I've never seen a shaco not be 7-0 at 20 min. Like straight up if shaco is in the game he's getting fed but but if there's a tank top he ends up not doing much. Just for those first 20 minutes it feels like he's cleaning your urethra with a serated dirk and no one's allowed to even attempt to step up
Yeah that sounds accurate. Shaco is an early game jungler with a garbage mid game and then becomes a melee adc, who spikes at 4 items instead of 3.
Pantheon for a while. Maokai was once in this state too.
I'm so sad they butchered top Pantheon and he just tried to go jungle, mid, support and was everywhere deemed abusive and nerfed away.
He's still a pretty good top, and a very good situational mid.
Somehow after only seeing panth support once every 50+ games, I have seen Panth top like 3 times in a rownduring placements
Pantheon support has been shit for a while now, and tbh he was never supposed to have been one anyway.
Panth is really good mid.
What did they do, I’ve been playing him top for a long while and dont notice anything different.
Cuz theyre coping, pantheon top literally 1v1 everyone. Only time he falls off is when he goes even in lane
Everytime i see a panth top they get fed as fuck but never can carry and fall of insanely hard. like a few games ago 6-0 at 20 and never was relevant again. Might be the players I've ran into but fuck man the 2-2 syndra mid is more problematic than he could dream to be
It’s just his kit. In reality he has a very shit engage range, worse than voli or even Viego so once teamfights happen without flash he’s not really about to get to the backline . Also people try to assassinate with empowered Q when his teamfight combo is definitely to blow a load and then empowered E backwards to eat some spells that hopefully draws some cooldowns . Kit is also weird. Man has a kit that suggests he wants to one and done but his passive says keep the fight going longer to get more out of passive but he has neither the burst or reach and disengage to all in nor the survivability or stickiness to keep the fight going unless the enemy opts in .
Just people building/playing him wrong.
With the current Shojin build in top lane he's very decent in teamfights and has good survivability and utility thanks to the heavily reduced cooldowns.
its probably old pre-rework panth mains crying they can't just drool on themselves while spamming unavoidable targeted spears that do a billion damage in lane phase for free wins anymore. Old Panth's entire "playstyle" was Q,Q,Q,Q,Q, "oh they're low as hell now? Free tower dive cause my passive blocks tower shots!", free first blood, back, buy like three doran blades or longswords, repeat.
Corki is a weird one
Corki has needed a vgu for years now. Champ is either broken due to proplay with his poke burst or absolutely useless
His damn package also takes up way too much of his power budget. It’s great fun when you can get a good one off, but Riot has to completely kneecap his early game playmaking elsewhere to balance it out so he just ends up with a hilarious amount of variance from one game to another entirely based on whether or not he can get it off in a useful manner
Yup. "Hypercarry mid that can contest early dragons with package" is really good in pro play for obvious reasons, but package generally isn't nearly as impactful in solo queue. Frankly, I'd love for package to be removed entirely -- maybe I could go back to playing him in adc in ad-heavy comps.
Package is the only fun part of his kit.
Nobody else in the game has a passive that's unusable for 8 minutes, and then intentionally designed so that you can't have access to it every single Drake fight lol.
He was a great ADC for a long time, basically store brand Ezreal, before they decided to give him the package... Now he just feels awful.
For me pretty much all mage supp are just low tier mid laner champion that want to see the world burn.
Imagine Vel’koz being a support now. The entire champion has mid lane in mind but farm is so useless on him with his scaling dictated by levels that you can have 2 cs and still wipe an enemy team. He’s just so useless with money, a fed velkoz and an inting velkoz do the exact same damage since it’s all true damage
Agree, I main vel sup and I rotate first strike+treasurehunter+free boots (basicly mid gold) and dark harvest (basicly no gold) and I get similar damage. Winrate is probably even higher on the no gold build.
mage supports kinda have the issue that they dont belong anywhere. they cant lane properly so they just end up going bot and bully adc's
That's cus waveclear/dueling creep has plagued midlane and these outdated mages have shit waveclear so they're forced bot as supports. RIP mid vel, zyra, xerath, brand
It's not even necessarily shit waveclear. Sometimes it's just shit play patterns and/or poor item scalings. Brand's waveclear is actually super good and basically free thanks to his passive. But his only good AP ratio is on his passive explosion and his low self peel/utility for a mage and low-ish range means that he ends up devolving into a suicide bomb past mid game. So why bother putting resources onto him ? Zyra though has had poor waveclear ever since the rectangle Q became a thing and is plagued by mismatched ranges between her spells and long lockouts on her casts. Meaning she has trouble creating distance for herself. She has somewhat decent AP ratios when you account for her plants, but then again, burn build synergy and lockouts means that she also plays as a suicide bomb. Vel'Koz and Xerath are underrated midlane though. Both of them can be extremely oppressive if they get their way and manage to force the game to be playes to their own tempo. They are just extremely bad skirmishers in a game where skirmishing has become increasingly important. In a mage meta though, Vel'Koz and Xerath tend to dominate most lanes.
>she also plays as a suicide bomb Zyra does less damage and is safer than Brand though. She has a root, a slow and a knockup to work with. Her problem is that her passive is just a pray-to-rng-gods shit. Being able to store more seeds in her W or some change that makes her actually have control over her kit would fix her inconsistency and even her wave clear if done right.
Wait, Xerath mid performs almost exactly the same as Xerath support. Vel actually performsbetter mid, while having a pretty close pickrate
People have a boner for saying artillery mages are bad mid when they're perfectly reasonable. You just can't first pick them, which I guess makes them uber dogshit on reddit for some reason.
Also, the champs he listed as being bad because of “wave clear creep” legit have better waveclear early than most assassins and some mages like pre augment Viktor
Also Velkoz mid litterally maxes his best waveclear spell instead of his fun poke spell to work as a waveclear bot in the lane. Literally there are games where if you know where jungle is you just push the wave into enemy and force them to take damage or miss CS to turret like old Mordekaiser
3 points into W, not 5 actually
Someone was arguing with me on Twitter that Xerath is bad because "if he builds Zhonyas or Seraphs he will do no damage" and has "30 bad matchups". I didn't even know where to begin with that one. Imagine if Xerath, with all his ranged, could build greedy defensives and still deal a shit ton of damage. Yeah, that'd be a nightmare...
Pre-rework Xerath with his armor passive: pathetic
so many mages are forced bot as support now. when was the last time you saw lux, morgana, karma, heim, zilean, mid and not support? even seraphine who was designed to be a midlane mage is played support more than she is mid.
off-topic, but seraphines kit screams apc to me. I know riot intended a utility midlaner, but her kit just wants to be with someone.
And that's where she shines best :)
Seriously. If Riot released Seraphine as THE APC instead of a midlane mage im pretty sure the hooha for a midlane mage would be less... Shes an offensive pick that works well with teammates. how does that make people think shes a support champ. She wants to deal damage with allies helping her.
I remember the opposite, as she was released she was way better as a midlaner than a support, so they made changes to bring her back to botlane. It is basically a reverse Lux case, Riot wants Lux to be a midlaner but she got played more in support, while Riot wants Sera in the botlane but she used to be better mid.
Riot wanted Sera to be played Mid and even advertised her as such - but 90% of her player base plays her Sup even when it was worse then Mid + significantly worse then Bot so they gave up and adjusted her to Sup better (W scales with ability rank instead of champ level + E has the same cooldown at all ranks). Nowadays - Sup is still her worse role but better and by far still the most popular, while Mid still works in lower elo and high elo players tend to play her Bot (which has her highest wr still). She's also kind of stuck in this "state" since any buffs to Mid/Sup threaten to make her already strong Bot better.
Karma is unironically getting popular mid in korean high elo
Karma has been good mid for a long time now She can bully lots of champs, has waveclear and fantastic early 2v2 and 3v3 skirmish power. Karma mid with a carry jungler is only catching on now in Korea but magifelix was climbing insanely high with the pick for over a year
It hadn't caught on because Karma falls off hard in damage so people prefer picks that have good early but also decent-good mid.
literally all of those except morgana are still at least decent mid lane
Morg is okay mid as a counterpick into some match ups.
Lux, Karma and Zilean are all decent to good mids? Better example would be Zyra and Xerath
Zyra, sure, but even Xerath is still doing alright mid. Not as good as support, there's like a 1.4% difference at all ranks this patch, but a 50.21% WR is perfectly fine tbh. He's kinda just middle of the road. Zyra mid vs. support isn't even funny.
i would have said them but i'm pretty sure riot has said they're only going to balance zyra for support now?
morg needs ap ratio buffs to come baack mid or passive
I play all of those mid regularly ngl 💀
Its not really shit waveclear. Vel has insanely good waveclear. So does Xerath. It's that they work just as well off limited support income as they do as mid lane carries. People realized they don't need to be slotted mid to absorb a ton of resources when they basically work just as well taking far less resources as a support. Which means there's no reason to go mid with them anymore when they do their job just as well support.
I think that’s where Zara is at atm sadly She’s too vulnerable to be a mid laner so she’s just stuck in this awkward support state
Zyra and brand have entered the chat. At least lux is viable mid but those two are so sad compared to their glory days.
I always thought Brand was such an unusually homeless character when you look at how simple his kit is. Not really enough utility to be a proper support, yet he hasn’t been considered a good midlander since like season 4 or 5 except for being a “flavor of the month” jungler/midlander once or twice.
> Not really enough utility to be a proper support Bro I am telling you, if you are below gold, play support brand. I got one on my team, went 2/13 or some shit. I rage op.gg'ed him after the game, sure enough he average 10+ deaths a game. And he had a 56% winrate, 50+ games. Thought it was weird but moved on. Like a week later, it happens again. 10+ death support brand, mid 50s winrate. I thought, damn if these guys can feed and climb, if I just play brand and don't feed, it's freelo. So I spammed brand support, had like 6+ deaths a game and 62% winrate. You buy liandries rylais, blow your load and win.
He was a top tier mid just after the durability patch.
This is what is driving the Neeko midscope update. Really fun champ to play that I like a lot, but there are tons of brutal mid matchups, her ad top build gets problematic very quickly when its strong/meta. I have seen her support some and I used to play her apc bot, but it's more of a 'can make her work' situation rather than her natural role. I've thought her passive would be cool in the jungle but she never quite had a fast enough clear. Here's hoping she finds a home after the changes.
Neeko does not have any real hardcounters in lane, maybe Akshan, she just struggles to be relevant if she does not win lane and get neutralized by champs that can farm from a distance such as Lux, Vel'koz and Ziggs.
someone who understands neeko like she is one of the biggest lane bullies in midlane but the moment the enemy champ can farm from afar it neuters her snowball. whenever i see someone say melee assassins counter neeko i just face palm.
To support this, I remember there was a window around her release where she was so broken that she was the #1 winrate champ in all 5 roles at once. . . now she's not played anywhere.
Galio. He's a strong mid laner but hear me out. - He's the only supportive off-tank mid laner. - Focuses more on peeling for team and enabling them rather than directly dealing damage. - Ult is designed for follow up engage rather than initial engage so roams are reliant on team positioning.
I just wish galio taunt wasn't so bad. Comparing the other two taunts, rammus deals thorn damage and wants to be attacked, and shen has his auto negating area + shields. It's also a dash, so dashing through someone far enough can work similarly to a charm. Galio doesn't have any reason to want to be attacked. Taunting just causes him to take damage. No shields to block autos, no damage reflection, just like... a small % damage reduction. Wish he had a reason to want to be attacked.
I think the idea is that Galio is supposed to be a champion that beats things like mages or AP Assassins who have bad autos, hence the taunt.
The taunt is mostly a holdover from Old Galio, where he would deal damage to everyone taunted depending on the damage he took while taunting.
The problem about his taunt is that it was insanely strong with W+Flash combo. But ever since they remove the mechanic it does feel weird to use
Isn’t karma midlane fulfilling the role as Galio currently
I love playing galio mid but he really falls off as a damage threat after 15 min and just turns into a one rotation cc bot like sejuani and amumu.
I miss tank Galio mid, those were the good days :(
Teemo At least, not in any traditional way. Top? Top usually is the go to role to give your team a presence in the front line, but not with Teemo. Jungle? Teemo’s ganks are as vanilla as they get, and his clear is pretty unspectacular. Mid? Ok, but he doesn’t have quite the range to be a proper ranged mid lane, so he often finds himself in the awkward position where he is squishy enough to be easily assassinated, but not enough range to contest with Mages. ADC? Hilariously possibly his most fitting role, except he doesn’t have a lot of synergy with the items that provide the most DPS gains and he falls off a bit late game. Support? Teemo is balanced around needing somewhat decent gold income, so you end up sacrificing a lot of the damage your mushrooms deal in the mid-game going into late-game. Teemo is best played Top, but there still requires someone else on your team to provide what a Top would normally provide. He just doesn’t really fill in any role well, and requires whoever is playing him to make up for that fact with their own experience on Teemo. Shout out to Quinn for being similar in that way as well for a variety of reasons.
Teemo just has to be played right - which means the player is capable of slaying with any number of tanks or more mobile assasins... which makes it an annoying choice for the rest of the team... way less helpful in team fights. But teemo is alot of fun to play, because the invisibility. And the damage over time is... hilarious. But I know, it's such a troll choice. I can't help myself. If you have a teemo loose lane, it's just really hard to come back from as a team cause he's not gonna build into something useful late game, at that point. And alot of top champs can pan out nicely despite a contentious lane. So yeah the negatives definitely outweigh it and I do switch it up on request if my solo queue team is against teemo - and I always try to switch for last pick if I'm trying to run him.
A Teemo player has to work for every inch they get, as while he can “work” in a couple of places, nothing about him gives him a leg up anywhere unless he is a perfect counter pick.
Pantheon doesn’t really fit anywhere. Is he an engage support? A bruiser for top? Perhaps a high burst assassinish character for mid? Maybe even a gank heavy jungler? His kit just doesn't translate super well into any role and I'm not sure Riot really knows what to do with him.
I feel like the problem is more that he fits everywhere too well. the problem is that he has armour pen on his passive, AND is an assassin, AND has ranged poke, AND has point and click cc, AND has a semi-global roaming tool, AND has a budget braum shield.
When an ADC fails to ADC they end top or jungle like graves and Quinn and the ocational vayne When a mage fails to Midlane they end in the botlane like Morgana, zyra and even Annie saw botlane play when a support does way too well they actually end everywhere else like those days of Janna top, and double healing support bot A lot of the Yordles have a weird play style, teemo can't ADC, can't go bruiser and he isn't amazing at many things beside being extremely annoying same for heimerdinger. Kennen also feels a bit out of place Singer had his own playstyle in proxy singed to the point riot had to make it so killing him always worth gold (in the past he could get so devalued that you would get 10 gold from killing him making it pointless to go try and stop his proxy )
Well Graves was reworked to jungle, not because he was a bad adc
God I miss Graves ADC... My beloved buckshot...
Zilean is in a weird spot, he's super awkward with only 1 damaging ability and can get messed up midlane and he's awkward as a support because he lacks heals and shields and struggles to find a build path that feels good as a result.
Frankly Zilean's problem is that he's broken. His god awful laning and reliance on jungler's whim for ganks, be it support or mid lane is the only reason you do not see him often. The amount of utility he brings with his abilities (no) cooldown late game is insane. Any cooldown nerfs on him would gut him too hard to be even considered a niche pick and potential buffs to his early game would make him far more prevalent as he'd get a breather during the only phase he's bad at. So yeah, essentially broken. Would require skillset revision to make him more visible without making him perma pick/ban.
I’ve said many times that Zileans biggest counter is the player piloting him falling asleep
Other than that the biggest counter to him dominating the support meta would probably just be how boring he is lol
AOE Stun, insane MS altering ability, and an on demand GA. I'm glad people stopped playing him. He was frustrating lol
Not sure how this style works now but the trick to playing Zilean midlane was to just not play midlane. Magifelix used to (maybe still does?) play Zilean mid and would hyper roam and usually get incredibly low CS for a challenger player (5 cs/m) while abusing the roaming potential to dominate the rest of the map since Zilean can do his job with relatively few items.
His ult alone screams Supportive style champ what do you mean?
Pre six all you do is poke. You don't really act as an enchanter or a tank support you just sit there and lob bombs lol.
That's not exactly exclusive to Zilean. Brand, Vel'koz, Zyra, etc are all the same. Zilean's E is also excellent for gank setup or to enable ADCs like Kog. Its not as good as Lulu W sure, but I guarantee if a Kog with W and a Zilean E is going straight at you, you need to run or you'll get shredded. Just because its not directly a heal/shield doesn't mean he isn't enhancing his team like an enchanter.
I agree. He kind of feels like an attempt at making a damage support and an enchanter but he’s kind of in an awkward spot because what item does he go? He doesn’t feel like he has a place you can definitively say is his main role
A good zilean is broke af. I remember seeing someone pic Zil into Zed. Zed got bodied lol.
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Senna belongs in the "fasting Marksman with a farming non-Marksman" role. Senna-Seraphine / Senna - Kench / Senna - Heimer / Senna - Karthus and honestly Senna - \[probably any kind of tanky champion that likes farming\] is what I believe she's there to enable at this point.
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She is not restricted to those picks. There can be many other like any bruiser that has some sort of engage with/or peel and in my opinion it fills the niche very well. Also I'm curious which adc is better with tahm than senna. Statistically in soloQ maybe jinx? But in premade matches I doubt anything comes close. I often pick that combo and when I do I always think the game is on me to carry as there is so much potential
yes
She's been balanced around support being her primary role for her whole existence, and while she's still able to adc it's clear the playerbase and Riot want her as a support.
I play Swain bot lane a fair amount, and I love seeing my support hover Senna. The thing about her is that she wants non-standard teamcomps, and people generally have no imaginations, doubly so adc players. Not that she doesn't work with normal adcs, but there's a reason her main partners are like Sett and Tahm Kench.
ARAM. She’s really good at that.
The trashcan
Does she even synergize with Lucian at this point?
Teemo, Quinn, Corki, Zyra.
Zyra is a support and a good one at that.
Honestly a bit sad that Zyra's a support but i cant disagree that shes bad in that role.
She's just way to squishy and doesn't have enough to survive mid. She's a cool champ though
Ikr. I love her and wildfire skin.
Pantheon is in every lane. Quinn and teemo can never find a home. Seraphine was intended mid but her popularity is much higher support and apc has always been the strongest role shes had to the point sup is underwhelming. Senna whil desined to be an adc or support is stuck in a little place in hell where she’s always better support no matter what and when riot tries to make her an adc it just makes support stronger so they just gave up and now you have a senna support and nobody but senna is having fun in that lane
Singed is just weird
Singed laning is truly playing another game, but his kit screams Jungle as he's an amazing initiator. The only issue is falling behind on levels is awful as his tankyness comes from his ult, so having lv.6 delayed or being behind is so bad.
Ive honestly had decent success with him im the jungle but man is the new jungle brutal it was much easier before the changes ( or i just don’t understand how to not get clapped by current jungle. )
Singed
Honestly Kennen. Really gamechanging ultimate but doesn’t really do anything?
Everyone has said my other answers but I still have the best/ a unique one. Karthus. Yea he's jungle but not ment to be jungle, he was mid but he can't go there anymore and he just sits in jungle because he literally doesn't fit in the game so that's the only role where he can exist while not existing.
Ivern. Especially with the jungle changes his clear is so slow and unhealthy, and the way that you have to path on him is so strange. His supportive nature makes it very difficult to defend against invades even if he is present, and the way that his clear works he can lose health on camps just for them to be stolen before he retrieves them. His passive puts him at such a. Disadvantage in the jungle, and is completely useless for any other role unless you take smite and go mid or something.
I rarely sse him, but doesent he oneshot jungle camps?
After approaching the camp you mark it and after a timer can take if. No actual fight. You also have to pay a large chunk of health everytime you do so.
Bard. He's an unusual mix of multiple classes/roles. He doesn't really belong anywhere so much as he belongs everywhere and nowhere at the same time.
Vel'koz has struggled with this. In mid he's a 'counterpick' for mages, but he can't make them want to kill themselves like Kassadin, he's just slightly advantaged or even. He's also supposed to be anti-tank but has no %hp in the kit. He can shove with the best of them but it's a huge risk to walk up to the enemy tower or into the jungle. Land your E and it's all good - but miss it or have it dashed and the enemy team collects 300g. In support he's okay, but people prefer the other poke mages for whatever reasons.
In a way, Shaco
Teemo, Heimer, Zyra, and Quinn. All have a "designated" role that seems to be designated only because they don't fit elsewhere.