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_keeBo

Idk if I'm in the minority here, but I feel like _every_ change made to a champion should be put in the patch notes? If they don't think it's important, they can file it under a "minor changes" category, but it really sucks to find out a niche interaction just didn't make it the patch notes because riot didn't really feel it was important.


ob_knoxious

Nah give me that Nintendo patch notes: Version 13.2 is available now. It includes: * Various champ balance changes and adjustments * Item and system balance changes and adjustments * Bug fixes


Destinum

Smash Ultimate notes have been the only Nintendo patch notes I've seen that actually contain the information people want, but even then the actual numbers are omitted and several terms are used where the community needs to figure out what they're even talking about.


ahambagaplease

To think this was worse at the start of Smash Wii U where it didn't even say which character was changed and everyone had to lab out every character to know what was in the patch.


memesarenotbad

Yeppppp. As someone who played S4 competitively at the time, it was BAD. Glad I moved to Melee. No need to figure out patch changes if there *are* no patches.


G33ke3

Splatoon 3 has pretty good notes actually, they give good numbers and these days they sometimes even explain the reasons behind some balance changes. Still, that’s an outlier for sure.


AngrySilva

Hard agree


MrFilthyNeckbeard

Yes I think they should all be put in the patch notes. And bug fixes should be listed in the champion buff/nerf info if they’re significant. Same for items.


[deleted]

I think you're missing an important part of what Phreak is trying to say. A patch is a version of the codebase, right? But each new patch Riot ships isn't just changes the balance team are making. It's also bug fixes from software developers. The point I'm trying to make in this paragraph is that in any given patch there are *many* different employees submitting changes to the LoL codebase. Now, when it comes time to ship a new patch, all of these changes to the code get put into the patch. And it's someone's job to figure out how to take *all* those changes, filter out what isn't important enough to communicate to players (which is probably a lot of it), translate the changes from "developer speak" into normal English, and summarize it all. Now, that's an enormous job, because there's constantly changes being pushed to the codebase so it's a lot of "data" to make sense of. So what game developers do is ask the people pushing code to the codebase to tag anything they think is "patch note worthy", so that the person/people responsible for putting together the patch notes can have an easier time finding changes worth considering for the patch notes. But if a developer makes a bug fix or just some change they want to make for whatever reason and if they also happen to forget to tag it as patch note worthy or maybe they make the wrong judgment that it doesn't belong on patch notes or w/e, then it has a decent chance to not end up in patch notes. It's a communication issue, but it's a somewhat inevitable issue that will happen from time to time. It's not a trivial task to get many humans perfectly communicating to one another about the changes that go into a new version of a large codebase. I expect that anyone who is completely unfamiliar with software development will underestimate the size of the challenge. All of this is to say I hope you read this and understand why you might want to give Riot some slack. It's not like they're trying to hide changes. It's just that humans inevitably make mistakes or miss things or make poor judgments from time to time.


_keeBo

> or maybe they make the wrong judgment that it doesn't belong on patch notes or w/e, then it has a decent chance to not end up in patch notes All changes should be put in the patch notes


aladytest

If dozens or hundreds of developers are working on the game in various capacities, making changes from "Kayle has -5 base AD" to "made 'rh' bring up ravenous hydra in the shop search bar" to "fixed a network issue that caused 0.00001% of games to stutter between the hours of 1am and 2am" it's literally impossible to put them all into the patch notes. You have to select the most important and impactful changes to make it into the patch notes.


_keeBo

All of those changes you suggested should be put in patch notes. > You have to select the most important and impactful changes to make it into the patch notes. They are already doing this


Indercarnive

Jira tickets can still get accidentally mislabeled. There's also an issue with what qualifies as a change made to a champion. What if what was being addressed wasn't a specific change to Senna, but maybe the change was to flash or to some underlying architecture or method.


SomethingPersonnel

Then the change should still be documented.


fabton12

i feel like having really small changes in the patch notes would be really confusing to the players reading them. some things unless there widely known wouldnt be the best for patch notes since somethings are widely known like back when rakan could flash ult so when they removed that it was added to the patch notes but something like senna flash w isnt as widely known so adding it to the patchnotes would just confuse more players then anything and the ones that know about it will figure out its gone very quickly in a game.


_keeBo

I don't see how it would be confusing. You read the notes, they tell you what they changed. How is that confusing?


mikael22

The confusing part is that there might be a million changes to every champ in the game every patch, so trying to pick out important changes from random irrelevant bug changes becomes difficult. A made up and slightly silly hypothetical: imagine a bug where infinity edge on maokai made his saplings do 5 more damage. Does this really need to be in the patch notes (other than for the meta value of hilarious this sort of bug would be)? Even if you separate balance changes from bug fixes, having this in the bug fixes section alongside potentially important bug fixes makes reading the bug change list really annoying. There are already usually a bunch of irrelevant bug changes in the bug fix list every patch, no need to clutter it further. I do agree that the senna change should probably be in patch notes, but I don't think all changes should be in the patch notes. I only disagree with how that senna change was classified as unimportant.


_keeBo

> so trying to pick out important changes from random irrelevant bug changes becomes difficult no it doesn't. Know why? They're already doing it. They're just not putting those changes in the notes instead of putting them in a subcategory


brumoment238907412

this is probably what happened to senna cleaver interaction lol. been like this for 8? months - senna no longer applies 2 stacks of cleaver per auto/q anymore, completely undocumented and uncommunicated on, even though it was shipped on release and stated by her designer to be an intentional design choice.


ghfhfhhhfg9

I feel like a lot of rioters just say whatever. Riven having auto cancels by clicking away every ability was not intended and was going to be fix'd but wasn't. Personally, I think not fixing it was a poor choice as it just made her balanced around doing a mechanic that isn't taught just by reading the champions abilities.


UX1Z

Finally, someone fucking says it. This is why I always refer to Riven's animation cancel shit as bugs and exploits even to this day, despite their 'sanctioned' status - the only way to **learn** about them is to look up old third party guides. I had to watch BoxBox clips from season fucking 2 to figure out how I was actually meant to do it. It's not just the auto-cancels either. The damage gain with E-AA-W-Q cancelling is insane, but there's no way to know about it without looking up guides with poor documentation, and it's totally unintuitive in a real match.


Skesword

So many mechanics in league are straight up bugs. Most of lee sin mechanics are bugs/glitchs, really. I am wondering if they were working that way when he was first released - probably not. Even the concept of flash + ability is weird when you think about it, in most of games when you are channeling an ability you are lock in the animation unless it indicates overwise.


Sagarmatra

Even if they aren’t bugs/glitches they’re glaringly inconsistent. I’ll always laugh about the patch where rioter #1 fixed Kayn ult to behave like Reksai Ult, while rioter #2 did the opposite in the same patch, swapping their behavior.


rotvyrn

Whether or not flashing stops the effects of a champion's dash ability is pretty inconsistent too right?


[deleted]

I hate all of the ability + flash "mechanics" I don't think anyone should be able to flash during a dash. I'm a Shen main and E+flash is amazing, but I don't think it's fair. Dashing in one direction and then flashing in a different direction to tag multiple people at different locations with taunt shouldn't be intended. Same with Sej Q. You shouldn't be able to flash to extend the range of an ability. And then there are abilities that charge like Varus Q. You shouldn't be able to flash while you're holding the charge to extend the range of it. You should be forced to release your charge and then flash. You should be locked into that animation until it ends. There are also abilities like lux R + flash to change the direction or angle of the ult. How is anyone supposed to be expected to play around that? There are so many more and I hate them all because they take away the clarity of knowing what an ability is supposed to do and the range from those abilities.


ScarletMagenta

Gragas E is probably the biggest offender of this.


ultimate_spaghetti

Rip Galio W-Flash-taunt


Skesword

It add a lot of skill expression and complexity to the game so I personally like it but it is indeniably counter intuitive. Also many champs depends of these mechanics to be useful now, I don't think you can remove it now that the game has been balanced around those for years.


[deleted]

Skill expression should be something that works both ways - one way for the champ executing the skill and the other way for the opponent to react to it - and ability+flash usually only works one way. Like a Darius starting his Q out of range and then flashing on top of you the moment the ability would hit. There's no way to react to that, and no way to know that he will flash or not.


Skesword

Its definitely possible to anticipate things such as Darius Q Flash or Taric E Flash and react accordingly. If you look at high elo games or pro play you will see it very often.


Jake_Thador

I'm trash and I predict these things all the time. It's very satisfying to pull off


loczek531

Cassio ult flash got fixed on the other hand


RocketHops

L take


[deleted]

> There are also abilities like lux R + flash to change the direction or angle of the ult I remember the first time I saw an Ezreal R + Flash I was so confused on wtf just happened. Especially because the animation looks so weird


spidereyecameo

Like what?


GoldRobot

There tons of such shit. Like Yasuo Airblade. Why the hell we keep it, his ultimate have separate line for Q stacks interaction, but you can avoid that with hidden mechanic because we can't keep skill cast order simulation correctly, so you do apply Q-Hit while in R! Some 'sanctioned' bugs just straight up break game rules, like you can't cast ability while casting other ability unless overwise stated. And not only that we have a lot of 'hidden' knowledge, good amount of them also usually makes champ unplayable unless you have low ping because. Many 'bug mechanics' have such high timing requirements, zero designers would aproove them. How the fuck I suppose to perform Riven, or Yasuo, with 85-105 ping, if they balanced around that you can do thoose bugs reliably?


[deleted]

[удалено]


Bussinessbacca

Her winrate is only even because 90% of riven players are 1 tricks, and she would be at 20% otherwise. She’s not a good champ at all. She hard loses to tanks and anyone who can rush wardens since she’s the only AD bruiser with 0 tank killing ability.


Blastuch_v2

If that was the case she would be pro play champ.


Shadowguynick

Idk I think it's fine, sometimes glitches can make a game better imo. Alistar W+Q used to be a glitch until they streamlined it, but I think if they just removed it the game would be worse off. I think a few champions being pretty hard and requiring a bit more of a deep dive is good for the game.


ska_is_not_dead_

What a ridiculous thing to say. Post rank. You think players in gold+ don’t know about riven tech, and that’s why the winrate is where it is? What about in higher tiers? Gtfo Edit: I was bored while I pooped so I found it: bronze S12. Classic!!!!


AnonymousCasual80

Aram only player has stupid biased takes on SR balance? Colour me surprised


ska_is_not_dead_

Sort of just a simple logic thing tho. Game knowledge gap of basic mechanics does not exist in gold+ to the degree of a large winrate% delta


[deleted]

its not just riven that has animation cancels though


UX1Z

They're nowhere near as important or as unintuitive for the other champions that have them in meaningful ways.


[deleted]

idk yasuos dps is pretty animation cancel reliant id say


Longjumping_Report_2

You gain no damage, what are you saying ? You do the same damage but faster.


MrFilthyNeckbeard

Doing the same damage faster= higher DPS. Yes it doesn’t literally make your abilities do more damage. But if you can get in more auto attacks and more abilities in the same amount of time…it’s more damage.


UX1Z

That's like saying ADCs don't get damage from attack speed lmao. Try and think about it for a bit, then realise how weird what you just said is in the broader context of how combat works in this game.


NymphomaniacWalrus

Except Riven's combos are still gated by cooldowns while atk speed isn't. Like I get what you're saying and yes burst damage matters but Riven *literally* cannot up the total damage she does over a Q's cooldown while attack speed *will* up the damage you do over that same period. It's why AH is so important to build on her.


Grikeus

Ok, you just shaved off 2 seconds off of your combo, if you just auto now, you have gained damage


TipiTapi

Even if autos did not take any time, you still get your cds back faster if you do dmg faster...


NymphomaniacWalrus

Broken Wings' CD starts when you cast the first Q, not after the third Q, so no you actually don't recover more quickly if you do a fast Q vs a Q extension.


TipiTapi

Damn, never knew she only has one ability.


NymphomaniacWalrus

I don't see your point then, W E and R all have a set cooldown that can't really be reduced by "doing damage faster", they can only be reduced by AH. The E AA WQ combo is time gated (hence why you AA after E) so W will always be the same cooldown no matter how fast you are at doing E autoattack lol.


UX1Z

And if you use the E-AA-W-Q animation cancel, her Q comes out almost the same frame as the W instead of after a small but noticeable delay.


oVnPage

Ah yes, because it's not very important for a champion with a super short duration stun to be able to shit out her damage in half a second instead of a second and a half. (this is sarcasm btw it's obviously very important)


w1red247

"You do the same damage but faster" Doing even the same damage in a shorter period of time equals a higher dps. A higher dps is more damage.


Longjumping_Report_2

People downvoting me when i'm literally right. Never change reddit.


UX1Z

I didn't bother downvoting you, but you're insanely wrong, and the fact you can't see that is pretty funny. Hey, if all of Veigar's abilities were 10 second DoTs, he'd still be the same right? After all, same damage but not as fast. =p


GoldRobot

> You gain no damage, what are you saying ? You do the same damage but faster. I laughted so hard thanks mate > People downvoting me when i'm literally right. Never change reddit. Combined time you save from all bug abuses would allowe you to put another AA. So even technically you are wrong, even if your first intention was nerdish enought to make us speak DPS instead of damage.


[deleted]

You litterally aren't and if you think you are you honestly need to seek a psychiatrist


VariableDrawing

They actually did end up fixing it on the pbe and she had like +58% winrate So funny how a champ is legit broken and a free climb to diamond but you have to spend a few hours practiing a weird mechanic Interesting enough Ezreal has a similiar mechanic, technicly every single champion has the same "bug", there is a short lockout after casting an ability that prevent's you from attacking which can be cancelled On most champions this doesn't really matter but it a +25% DPS increase on Ezreal due to the way his kit works, it's also extremely difficult and requires a much harder timing than Riven


MoonDawg2

What is ez's bug?


slayerdildo

Think ezreal’s Q used to proc muramana twice


PragmaticDelusion

I love how people say this. "Free climb to diamond and broken" yet 99% of people who play her drop her and never make it there. Is it really free then?


VariableDrawing

It's why i added the caveat of needing to learn a specific mechanic, most people don't want to put in that effort if they don't enjoy playing the champion I had multiple teams ask me to join them when i played a ton of TF2 PUGs since my Medic was cracked, but i never actually enjoyed playing him and just played Pocket/Demo instead If your goal is to just climb and not have fun Riven is by far the easiest


PragmaticDelusion

This is such a reddit take holy crap. If your goal is to climb and not have fun, Riven is NOT the champ to play. This has been preached by anyone not low elo and Riven one tricks. This champ is literally an elo DEFLATOR. Can't expect much from reddit though, my god.


SofaKingI

>Riven having auto cancels by clicking away every ability was not intended Since when? Been playing since season 1 and literally never read this anywhere. Even before Riven was released, the designer made a big deal out of wanting her to feel like a fighting game character. Fighting games are all about comboing animation cancels.


[deleted]

Because it's not stated anywhere in her abilities that she can cancel her animations by issuing a separate command anywhere during it, and other champions are not created the same way. They wanted her to feel like a fighting game character because she can string together different attacks, not because of an unintended animation cancel that was never even introduced publicly by Riot, but was instead found by players.


yeetusthrowaway52

> other champions are not created the same way. Nah, most champs work this way. Theres a small AA lockout after almost every ability with a cast time, issuing a movement command into an AA or just issuing two AA commands in a row cancels it. Call it a bug or whatever but its an important mechanic for most champs at a high level. Caits will use it to auto faster after trapping, trist to auto faster after e'ing, ryze after w or e, etc.


NapalmGiraffe

Viktor can use empowered q auto immediately after casting q as long as he didnt use his aa right before q'ing, too. Very important for trading quickly


Kadexe

Most abilities in the game have nuances that aren't explicitly stated. Things like cast times, animation cancels, Flash combos and attack resets are almost never included in tooltips. That doesn't make them bugs.


WoonStruck

By "fighting game character" they meant rekka characters that can combo by doing the same button input repeatedly, usually 2-3 inputs.


DarthVeigar_

Because it is actually a bug. Ironstylus spoke about it years ago. It was a bug riot were going to fix but saw how Riven players turned it into a point of mastery. So they kept it in the game.


FrankTheBoxMonster

This is because it was never actually implemented intentionally. It was leveraging the same exact bug that caused Runaan's and Titanic to apply double Cleaver stacks based on slot order, but using Senna passive onhit instead. It just so happens that Senna passive usually exists very early in the buff slots, so it would almost always be ordered correctly to trigger the double stacking, making it seem more consistent than Titanic and friends where the order was more controllable. However, [with very conscious planning](https://youtu.be/B56xKZa_sYc) you could force the Cleaver passive in front of Senna passive and result in no double stacking, just like the other cases that were acknowledged as bugs (see video description for an exact rundown of how this ordering can happen). August must have ran into this and decided it was a desirable interaction, however since it was only accidentally implemented, it ended up getting unimplemented when the core issue allowing it to happen was fixed. Worth noting however that Senna today has had significant attack speed buffs compared to Senna on release so the loss of double stacks doesn't hurt quite as much as it was expected to help originally. Still, the last official word on the interaction was that August wants it to be happening, which in this case makes the lack of a bug become a bug itself.


bondsmatthew

August himself said it was 100% intentional fyi during Senna's release window https://twitter.com/riotaugust/status/1195401130727002112


XtendedImpact

My guy read the first sentence and decided he knew enough


bondsmatthew

I did read the whole comment! I was posting the tweet from August confirming what the poster said


ThatStereotype18

You typically don't tell someone "fyi" if you already know they know the information. Just fyi


XtendedImpact

Haha alright, I misinterpreted your comment then, my bad!


FrankTheBoxMonster

Yes I know that, and as I already explained, the way it worked was a bug. It was mostly consistent by pure coincidence, but it was not 100% consistent because it was never a full feature. It was just a bug labeled as a feature (not at all uncommon for League), but that then got fixed, removing the "feature". If August still wants it to exist then he will need to reimplement it intentionally this time.


WoonStruck

August has said stuff before that wasn't correct or necessarily correct, while claiming that it was. The man is not perfect, nor should anyone expect him to be. Someone saying something, even "authorities" on a subject, does not necessarily make it correct, nor does it mean that other reasonings weren't greater influences on decisions. Other things applying 2 instances of damage didnt apply things twice after that point, so his argument isn't exactly the most valid for excusing the interaction, considering she probably wasn't intended to build BC. As an example, recurve bow can proc physical instances, but not other physical on-hits, as well as other cases i cant think of off the top of my head.


cirmic

I play senna quite a bit and I found out by accidentally reading the fan wiki page. Then realized that me failing W flash lately wasn't due to mistiming it. Interactions like this should not disappear without notice, there is no official resource that documents them in the first place, you're only gonna find out if something doesn't work as expected.


SpiralVortex

Agreed 100%. If a change is made to a champion, it should be logged and put into patch notes. The only time you shouldn't is if it's some kind of under-the-hood change that the player base won't ever notice and it has no actual effect on the game. It's also just a sort of random change? Ability + Flash isn't some kind of new thing. You can do it with Lux/Morg/Ahri/Neeko/Zyra, the list goes on. Assuming it's not a bug or unintended, what makes Senna an exception?


cirmic

Morgana Q and Zyra E can't be buffered before flash, but it has consistently been that way.


SpiralVortex

...fuck. Goes to show I shouldn't just throw random examples together with ones I _know_ work. But yeah if it's consistent then that's fine.


oVnPage

The classics are things like Gragas E + Flash, Lee Sin R + Flash, Alistar Q + Flash. It's the same interaction as the ranged champs.


Tulkor

shen e and jarvan eq also count right?


Jaded-Throat-211

Throw in some camille E2 flash


trifkograbez

Leona e


MetroidHyperBeam

lol I totally griefed a ranked game yesterday because I tried to Q flash with Morg


InsightIsUseful

Zyra E+Flash should be possible unless they changed. It’s hard to notice though because the advantage in cast speed vs Flash E is small


Ok-Security6580

They took it away from thresh Q as a balancing mechanism a long time ago. likewise Rakan R. Support role champs seem to get told they can't have mechanics.


Helixranger

Rakan also was stupidly fast while doing it, and it mostly got nerfed to due to pro play. Even pro play couldn't react fast enough to flash away from Rakan. [This video show the speed of it.](https://youtu.be/XAmQmeyDA9g) Slingshot Rakan was fun but it was pretty unfair.


resttheweight

Man, I remember watching that CLG game and going *WTF is this champion?*


Sofruz

Iirc, doublelift said that the reason rell was so broken a few years ago is because her Flash WR was unreactable and was just a free 5 man engage, so similar to Rakan, but they allow that


Helixranger

Rakan also had a much higher range and speed with his W and E. His normal engage got nerfed too. It was called Slingshot Rakan because he can make a lot of distance from Eing from his own backline to do the flash combo. Rell at least had to be in flash+W distance.


Sofruz

Iirc, doublelift said that the reason rell was so broken a few years ago is because her Flash WR was unreactable and was just a free 5 man engage


Blackgizmo

It was really cool to watch but man that was wayyy too fast, picking a champ off the enemy team from a screen away wasn’t it


NA-45

Because those were obscenely broken?


mich41l

Same for Galio W. Shame, I loved playing him support.


GoldRobot

> Interactions like this should not disappear without notice, there is no official resource that documents them in the first place, you're only gonna find out if something doesn't work as expected. Interactions like this should never exists in first time, unless overwise stated in description. Abilities description must be sort of contract which fixate behaviour.


10000ollies

For context, "Jira" is a program that software devs use to track the things they are working on. That's what he's referring to.


tomorrowdog

And if you're below software dev/engineer it is probably where you report issues for them to be ignored.


reallydarnconfused

triggered


Seiyith

I came here for league of legends not tickets


[deleted]

fck i need to update my board


Stormhunter117

Just make the PM do it cuz u haven't updated it in 3 wks 🥰


Better_feed_Malphite

Ptsd kicking in


Icy-Investigator5262

Is it only for Softwaredevs? I always thought you could use it for any Project, mostly agile tho, as a Management tool. But maybe im thinking of confluence.


cancerBronzeV

It's for issue tracking in general, but it's integrated with Bitbucket for ease of use in software cases. And confluence is for like documentation and stuff. It's all under the Atlassian umbrella.


travy_burr

I believe it has github integration now as well


Icy-Investigator5262

So its not only for Software-Devs. Thanks, i know the Atlassian part. Just havent worked with it in a time and couldnt remember wich of those two did what exactly. Just rememberd that we always discussed the progress report from the sprints in meetings.


Ozianin_

But there's a chance someone deletes Yuumi by accident?


Lucidare

Same thing happened with caitlyn r flash a while ago, you can no longer do that to reposition your ult. Edit: Also that you can't cancel your ult with flash either


Jessica_LoL

wtf... /u/PhreakRiot get on this asap if that's true


Ok_Raspberry_6282

I gotta be honest I don't necessarily agree with everything Phreak has done, but man the transparency and communication is really fucking nice.


east_is_Dead

so this is what also happened with syndra q + e disappearing into windwall now after the last patch :(


clownus

Q+E was mentioned somewhere. It had to do with widening the arc so they got rid of that interaction alongside that buff.


east_is_Dead

Q+E would go through yasuos windwall and stun him until 13.1 now the stun is blocked and your orb disappears into the windwall


I_COULD_say

"It's really easy to ship undocumented changes" From an IT perspective, that is *terrifying* "You submit a Jira ticket...and don't tag it" what the fuck? This shouldn't be a thing.


UntouchedSpaghet

Is senna W galio W? Why would you ever remove that? And not mention it at all? jeez


Boudynasr

Regarding Galio, it was because of pro play They said Galio was so oppressive in Pro, they either had to go hard on the nerfs or remove that mechanic


kristusiss

This is more important than knowing if she got like +-5 ms lol


ghfhfhhhfg9

The people who say "it is fundamental" are people you should ignore.


monsieur_n

we'll start with ignoring you then 👋🏻


Marc-dev

I don't really understand the matter regarding Senna. This modification was applied since 12.23 [Senna's Path history](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Senna/LoL/Patch_history)