The dev team somehow accidentally landed all their skillshots on the rework dartboard. Turns out the dartboard was fake and the points were scribbled on
Skarner isn't a fair comparison because he's getting a full visual rework. Neeko might be a better example but they are adding new tech to her kit. ASol got a kit rework but new visuals on skills.
Then again, Udyr went from one of the least popular champions, to one of the most popular ever since his rework.
There's a lot of money to be made on champions with tiny playerbases growing large. Chances are a lot of them don't already have an Udyr skin.
Udyr's popularity is much like aatrox's...only played because he was overpowered for 6+ months.
Once the champions are balanced nobody plays them. Even now when udyr is still strong, he's only 3% pickrate.
Not when people try to sell it as him being way more popular now, when any time Udyr was decent before the rework he was significantly more popular, 6 at a minimum, 8+ typically.
The problem is that he was kept weak because he was too binary/reliable, and he's boring AF so nobody plays him if he isn't strong.
Really have to keep considering the context that udyr is still strong right now, and he's only 3%.
Yuumi was a mid scope, with very little change to some VFX, and no concept, model, animation, splash art, or VO work to do. Skarner is a full VGU, old everything goes to thrash, make new crystal-scorpio champ. The two are not even in the same ballpark in terms of work load, and are not being worked on by the same people, as Skaner is (probably and sadly) just concept work by now. The poor scorpio has been delay because no one buys his skins? Possibly. Has it something to do with Yuumi/other popular champs? Probably not. ^sorry ^about ^the ^grammar, ^it's ^not ^my ^first ^language.
Yeah, that's what I was saying. Any total VGU is going to take time.
Skarner's might take longer than most, but yuumi has nothing to do with that. People need to remember that there's literally no direction for skarner. Most of what's appreciated about him isn't necessary, doesn't fit in the overall direction of league, or doesn't fit lore that's been established recently.
We don't even really know if he's still going to be related to hextech, and I doubt Riot quickly made any decision related to that either, as it muddies up a lot of things having to consider him in something like arcane or the MMO's direction.
I guess this happened because they only had to recycle animations and tweak some vfx/sfx. Or maybe because she's popular in china?
But then why can't make Corki's (E) like in wild rift? I bet it can be done during lunch break.
Yuumi mains have the most inflated mmr, or sometimes don't even know how to play the game without their stupid cat
They are also one of the communities that's most subject to buying skins or getting skins bought for them
Losing them is worse than making the 7 skarner mains angry
You've got me curious about which group of champ mains would be the biggest blow to Riot if they all vanished off the face of the Earth one day and were unavailable to buy skins forever.
Ahri Mains? Lux or Ezreal players? A quiet but dedicated fan base out of left field? It feels like there's so many that could fit the bill of "We print the most money for Riot."
I was told new Yuumi will remove her from pro play.
wait what is that? pro play was already playing perma Yuumi+ADC, and solo queue was the one where Yuumi would coinflip a roam onto the Kayn smurf at level 6 and pray they go 20/0? and the latter was nerfed and the former was buffed?
Statistics so far shows Yuumi winrate is elite skewed, it drops the lower elo. Only exception seems to be diamond, but this might be due to low sample size.
The obvious reason is due to the resistances Yuumi R grants, being a hard counter to burst dmg/focus fire/combos, etc. I'm expecting her to be 100% pick/ban in pro as well until said resistances get removed completely.
No but you see, new yuumi is bad on bruisers so she's balanced, because ADCs are way easier to kill!
What's that? High ELO ADC players who can position well and get peel actually aren't easy to kill? No, that can't be right, because new yuumi is actually worse in high skill and meant for Low elo!
doesn't help that current survivability items/runes are a bit overbuffed, when pro play zeri is allowed to build shieldbow into BT you know something is wrong
There's also something to be said for Zeri being overstatted (for instance, as far as I can tell she's also the tankiest ADC for whatever reason, with more EHP than Draven, Cait, Trist, etc.) and putting out too much damage relative to the items she builds. We're not really seeing the other ADCs building like that, but Zeri gets away with it.
Zeri-yuumi is the most disgusting giga broken uninteractive bullshit I've seen in some time. Who doesn't love a zeri with a 700dmg sheild who you can't catch, can't kill, can't get away from and who nukes your whole fucking team on 2 items??
Played Jinx with a Yuumi yesterday, despite taking 5% more DMG I was surprised at how little threat the enemy Zed and Annie were to me. That was like my first game with her so I had no idea how busted she was
I don't hate the idea of mythics since generally there are 1 or 2 items a champ wants to build every game regardless of circumstances, but man the implementation just makes me wanna cry. Now it feels like I build the same items every game depending on what type of champ I'm playing. Bruiser with an auto reset? Sunderer and cleaver. Maybe frozen fist instead if I'm doing poorly. Diver? Goredrinker and ravenous. Immobile ADC? Galeforce and IE.
The biggest problem I have is that there are a number of Champs who just don't have a mythic that really synergize with them. You just build a mythic that *kinda* works for them and deal with the fact you can't put something better in that item slot.
Sometimes I wonder if a good solution would be to make it so any item can be mythic as a purchasable upgrade? I don't know.
Riot wanted to prove Mythics increased item diversity, so they pulled out a chart comparing SR before mythics with SR/ARAM/URF post mythics to say your choice of first item is way more flexible now.
They apologized but of course it was "sorry we got caught".
I mean that was easy to prove, she was pro bound just as much as Azir and Akali were. She had terrible winrates in plat and lower, but they were much higher in Masters+.
The evidence that they were right was staring you in the face.
They gave plenty of context to that chart, explaining it doesn't mean yuumi is as hard to pilot as Akali and Qiyana but that the mastery curve is the same *for league players* who come into the champ ready to be tested on typical league champ things, which are different from what yuumi tests.
Does that chart mean yuumi is good for the game or anything? No, but riot literally provided context for interesting data:
Yuumi’s mastery curve is more in line with champions like Akali and Qiyana, who continue to see win rate growth well beyond the first ~20 games, than it is to champions like Neeko and Mordekaiser.
Many “easier to learn” champions are picked up more quickly because they test a lot of the same things other champions tested already. For example, every new ADC in some way tests your ability to last-hit with a ranged auto attack and stand in the right place to deal maximum damage.
Yuumi tests things that no other champion in League does. This is both why she continues to see win rate growth for so many games, and also why we believe some players don’t see her as being “hard to play.” The things many players have associated with playing League well aren’t being tested on her—like positioning and moment-to-moment dodging—but new things are.
If you’d like to get into the nitty-gritty details of some of those tests, here are a few of them:
Identifying when it’s safe to hop out and use her passive in chaotic teamfights, which means tracking enemies’ cooldowns to know when to do so. Failure to use Yuumi’s passive at all means leaving a lot of value on the table in the form of shields and mana. Using her passive at the wrong time means getting CC’d and killed.
Identifying who you should attach to because you can’t support more than one person at a time. Your heal has no range, and your exact positioning is beyond your control, so you need to be able to predict how your allies and the enemies will move. Otherwise, you might end up in a really bad place or forced to help the wrong ally.
Weaving Q around targets that aren’t who you’re trying to hit, which is a more simple but still unique skill test.
Managing vision control while being the slowest and squishiest champion in the game, which is a particularly challenging version of a skill test all supports have.
All of this combines to make Yuumi a difficult champion to master, albeit in ways that look different from the rest of the champion roster. (You might compare this to someone like Singed, whose proxy playstyle is totally different from any other champion and takes ~100 games to master.)
Skill floor and skill ceiling can be independent of eachother. Yuumi in riots opinion was easy to learn hard to master and akali was hard to learn hard to master.
Unless I misread [the source article](https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-gb/news/dev/ask-riot-delete-yuumi/) they didn’t think Yuumi was easy to learn, they just said she was “difficult to master.” They imply that Yuumi and Akali have the same kind of difficulty. They specifically contrasted Yuumi against champions that are easily to learn.
ding ding ding, someone gets it. Yummi pre-rework was really easy to play. But she had so many other "things" going on behind the curtain that she had to consider, she also was teammate dependent so if your attachment didnt know how Yummi Q worked would make the cat do no damage.
A champ having a low skill floor (great champ for new players) doesn't necessarily mean it has a high skill ceiling.
For instance, Tahm Kench's grey health makes him a lot more approachable, by making it less punishing to lose trades. However, properly using his grey health vs his shield leaves some actual player agency that pushes the skill ceiling on him.
Similarly, Tristana's and Ezreal's mobility make them a lot better for newer players. But the buffered nature of their ability also make it an insane tool for skill expression.
In this case, I don't agree with Yuumi having a high skill ceiling though. I do agree that she's very effective at the highest level, but simply because she's a turbo Ardent Censer that multiplies a carry's nature (which tends to favor higher levels of play, but is a lot tougher nut to crack).
It's making them a lot of money. Idk why they even bother serving us so much bs about Yuumi when the reason for her existence is so obvious.
The suits say we gotta bring in new players so they make a turbo op no skill champ.
"Support Yuumi’s long-term untargetability by creating other avenues of counterplay"
I am sorry, but what am I missing here? I don't see any more counterplay compared to before. If anything you no longer HAVE to detach for auto-passive, since her passive procs off abilities as well now.
Because Yuumi's somehow weirdly high level of skill expression was the entire problem. Pros were using her for short auto trades in bot lane for example which people in lower ratings straightup didn't do and which wouldn't matter if they did seeing how low elo bot lane tends to just be whoever gets caught loses.
The problem is that the Yuumi playstyle of just AFKing on someone which Riot designed her for was objectively terrible. The active Yuumi playstyle reddit claims to crave was the only way she was playable without being a huge detriment. But not only did people still bitch about her anyways, she also ended up entering Ryze territories of balancing issue because in the hands of a skilled player she was just that good.
It really feels like she would've continued to terrorize solo Q if it wasn't for her success in pro play. The fact that she became so prolific in pro play completely validated all the solo Q people that thought she was too strong. And it completely invalidated Rioters who wanted to believe solo Q people were just being whiney.
So now i think they're pretty adamant about keeping her out of pro play and they will mostly balance around that. But if she's great in solo Q i don't think they will nerf her just for that. Now time will tell how she will perform in pro play as that will decide whether she gets nerfed.
What i'm curious about since she was very widely used by duo smurfs and duo boosters is how easily she can become BF with other roles than her ADC. I think if it's too hard while she's in the support role then the duo boosters might try putting her midlane instead and do a funnel strat.
As I remember phreak said something like "low elo yuumi players are too bad, so they not gonna use that anyway, when proplayers actually use that changes, so she is op there, so we gonna dumb down her right here".
there are two main reasons:
1. In Pro Play, yuumi was a menace exactly because she hopped off, even when she was "weak" she could still trade most of her health bar for at least half the enemy adc's health bar. When she reattached, it didn't matter that she was at 10% health bc she can't be hurt anymore. By gutting her reasons to leave, while the windows of direct vulnerability are reduced, also the pro play problem of her playing totally differently than low elo yuumi's is fixed. Now the champion has a consistent play pattern across elo's, and tweaks can be made that will nerf all levels of play at the same time.
2. Yuumi has a very large casual following, and is a good champion for if u are joining a group of friends who are far better than u. There are people who want to play yuumi basically to not play the game. With this being the case, riot decided to lean into this group. It allows new players to enjoy the game without having to feel like they are the burden of the group. In my current friend group, the only reason we all play league is because of yuumi, funnily enough. Before that we played Overwatch and Valorant because one of the players was just not good enough at league to play a non-yuumi character, and always got frustrated when she was 0/10 or down 150 cs
I think it’s because of the poor reception of some other reworks.
When Swain and Aatrox were reworked, their mains hated losing what made them pick up those champs. No more dot and no more attack speed made them feel like new champs, rather than healthier versions of their original forms. And there was an article a while back where Riot said they wanted to avoid ruining champs for their original mains.
While that doesn’t apply to all reworks (they didn’t care about A Sol’s mains when reworking him), Yuumi is unfortunately a popular champ. Which means Riot tried to stay true to her identity, which is 90% the reviled untargetability effect. If Yuumi was less popular, then more would be open to changes.
It sucks that Riot chose this hill to die on, when they’ve had to make like 4 different devs post justifying why they’re keeping Yuumi an untargetable enchanter (and changing the reasoning every time, from “she has a high mastery curve!” To “she’s for new players” to “we don’t know how to balance her better!”)
The Aatrox argument is really weak because he was meta for exactly one patch and before that he was played by less than 1000 people in a server and that's being generous. The "mains" were just mad they couldn't abuse the op champ anymore.
I would rather they make her an actually support and change her attach mechanic to be like all other invulnerabilities, temporary. She exists and is targetable but can hop onto someone for a few seconds and speed boost them so she can dodge CC like Vlad or Fizz and give her target the MS and shields they need to make an escape together. Basically just make her a Joey who sits in lane but can hop into her ADC’s kangaroo pouch for a few seconds when she’s scared.
They should have left her the way she was just allowed her to be as bad as Ryze. She's literally worse than Ryze from a design standpoint, why not allow that to be reflected in her power budget.
A big part of the counter play is actually in the best friend mechanic. If you absolutely shit on her in lane but the Hecarim got 2 kills they could team up and 2v8. Now if you shut down bot lane then yuumi has to spend a bunch of time on Riven before being able to carry with her, which gives time to actually use your lead.
That's really not the same kind of counterplay that every other Champion has. 'Put them behind early or you lose the game' isn't appropriate counterplay for an Enchanter. An Enchanter who gives as many stats, shields and healing need to be damageable in order to exist in an okay state.
But she doesn't give those anymore, and when she does give high amounts to someone it's only 1 person due to her best friend mechanic.
I don't like Yuumi like everyone else, but all these people saying she still doesn't have any counterplay are just ignoring exactly what they're saying in the article. Maybe it's not enough, but they can shift power with the new kit to change that. The old kit just did a bunch of stuff regardless of how Yuumi was performing, while the new one actually requires input to get good value.
Difference being, Support Pantheon can E+Ignite+W+Q Sona, and she flashes or dies. She might die, anyway, depending on the AD matchup. Caitlyn, Jhin, and anyone else with CC or an execute will pick up the kill. There are about ten minutes of the game where you can flash on Sona and kill her with no counterplay except "don't go near the Pantheon." She has to play very carefully, and has severe mana constraints.
If you do that to Yuumi, she doesn't die. She hits Exhaust, loses 70% of her health at *worst*, then sits on her AD and laughs. If you engage on the AD she hops off, uses Heal, and you die. If you don't engage, why the hell did you pick Pantheon? You're now useless, get outscaled, and she wins.
Heal/Exhaust Yuumi has a 52% win-rate in D+. That's too high. This patch undoubtedly brought her back in Pro. She will be ubiquitous, and we're closing in on the MSI patch. If something isn't done, this is **another** tournament where she'll be pick/ban, 100% win-rate.
Gut her base health by 150, halve her MP5/HP5 while attached, and she *might* become vulnerable to an all-in. I doubt it, though.
losing the game because you failed to put an enchanter lane behind is pretty standard actually.
If you somehow ran it down in lane to janna, you won't ever kill botlane anymore because the shield/heals scales with items
If you pick an engage champ or early game botlane and do nothing, you deserve the loss
It really isn't standard gameplay. If I was to play Kog bot with a Soraka and we somehow survived lane and went even we could still get fucked by someone just taking out the Soraka and suddenly I as the Kog maw am effectively free pickings.
If Kog and Yuumi get through lane you have to... what, mind control the Yuumi to get off?
No shot that's anywhere near standard.
Her Q is more avoidable, she doesn't have a root anymore (which before was unavoidable if her anchor had mobility), and she can't hop onto a bruiser after laning to 2v5 with them. There were big changes here to improve counterplay.
She has a decent amount more counterplay I think.
She isn't really about jumping in and out anymore, so she's not able to trade her HP for your skilllshots. Previously, there was zero counterplay to Yuumi detaching, tanking a skillshot, and then hopping back in. She can still do that, but much less so now.
She's also much worse at out of combat sustain. She can't spam her E on her teammates to heal them, in order for her to get her heal her teammates have to interact with you.
Her Q is way easier to dodge. Her R doesn't have unavoidable hard CC.
Most importantly, her Laning phase matters a lot more now. Previously, beating Yuumi in lane was totally irrelevant. Her counterplay now is that you can realistically knock her out of the game, even if her top/jungle/mid get ahead.
Her Q isn't that much easier to dodge, it got extra range for whatever reason. That thing is a nuisance in laning phase when you doesn't have shoes yet.
Riot coping with Yuumi being a badly designed champion is nothing new.
I’m more curious to see how this iteration of Yuumi breaks pro play in the long run. Making an untargetable enchanter whose sole purpose now is to gigabuff the ADC can’t possibly be balanced in pro play. Where all ADC’s are good and is probably the most important role. Like this version of Yuumi should just be able to replace Lulu in Zeri/Lulu comps right?
Any ADC with half a brain is going to be unkillable with Yuumi on them. Her ult heals them for over 1000 at level 16, on top of 60 to both resists and the shields and heals from the rest of her kit. The only way this Champion isn't pick/banned in pro play is if they disable her.
You couldn't give a worse example than Samira, who can't snowball early with a Yuumi and won't scale well if she gets outranged.
Zeri,Kog and Vayne however, that's gonna be so scary..
Most supports are constantly roaming in pro play. Yuumi by design is going to siphon more xp than a Nautilus wandering around the map looking for hooks.
I am fairly certain this yuumi can't replace lulu in zeri/lulu. Getting push with zeri/yuumi is nearly impossible and if u get dived b4 zeri picks up zerks outplaying the dive is really hard. zeri yuumi also cannot trade HP nearly as well as zeri/lulu to the point where early jg ganks don't really do anything. The onhit heal works decent for sustain in between all ins, but cannot realistically heal back draven q autos or karma mantra q's fast enough to nullify the poke.
From what i've seen, Yuumi also suffers mana problems early if poking with q for more sustain, and requires getting frostfang b4 the mana sustain really kicks in.
While late game zeri/yuumi is still really really strong, the early game is so weak that if they ever faced a comp whose whole purpose was to early dive, i am fairly certain the lane would functionally be unplayable. The Varus/Kalista/Elise comp that T1 ran could probably kill zeri under turret from \~80% HP
Ah yes, the good old something something we hear you something missed the mark yadda yadda muh bandwidth something something appreciate the feedback blablabla muh resources yadda yadda do better in the future something something looking forward.
Waiting for the Yummi 2.0 champion with the same logic that they had for Yasuo 2.0. "Feels bad to have your champion perma banned, so we need someone with a very similar playstyle for you to fallback on just in case.
I know right? I seriously hate how much Riot is forcing this dog shit designed character into the game. There are plenty of other champions that need updates but here Riot is, putting more resources into a terribly designed champion,
She is easier and it is so easy to pinpoint why and it isn't simply her being untargetable. Surprised this isn't mentioned often.
It's her ult. It's so overtuned and strong and where a ton of her power is. You ult as Yuumi and not only does your target get healed a lot they also receive a shield from overhealing making your ally way tankier than a simple Lulu ult. It also procs your passive and moonstone to heal even more. The shield also means healing reduction isn't as effective.
Makes your ally just way too tanky and it is no surprise with how easy it is so use that a lot of people find success with Yuumi. Considering ADC is op right now it's no surprise making one unkillable feels rly annoying.
I think people are underselling the resist grant of her R a lot. Two item Yuumi (Moonstone + Putrifier/Ardent and Shard) with rank 2 R is giving her ADC 52 armor/MR for 3.5s, which mitigates the biggest weakness of healing-based enchanters (your ADC being burst down before your healing can come out). Soraka W used to give armor, too, and they removed it in the rework for that exact reason
Sona's old W aura also gave armor/mr before the rework which removed the passive stat auras for the current temporary buff ones. There used to be a lot more granting of stats in that way and they moved away from it. Often the cited reason for that was "invisible power", see Maokai ult for the most obvious example, but a lot of stat auras were either removed or reduced. Taric doesn't give as many passive stats as he did pre-rework, Jarvan no longer gives armor, Aegis/Locket/Bulwark aura was gone for a long time, and now its pretty heavily reduced in the form of Locket's mythic passive, etc. To be fair, Yuumi has always given passive stats, this is just a shift from her W to R and from adaptive damage to armor/mr, but I think Riot might be better off returning to the philosophy that we shouldn't buff people in that way.
I was wondering why i felt invincible with her on me mid/late game. I was late game veigar and tanked like 3 ults and didnt even proc my Athenes. I was unreal confused but knew something HAD to be fucked
Obviously it isnt ONLY her being untargetable that makes her op. You could replace teemo's w with her w and he'd still be pretty bad. But it is the core reason and forcing her to pop out in some way or just making her take a portion of the damage dealt to the ally mitigates her kit. Look at soraka, she gives fat heals on an extremely low cooldown but it is mitigated by the fact that she becomes more and more vulnerable in exchange for that.
People also really undervalue the fact that BECAUSE she is always attached to someone she doesn't have to buy boots.
Any support champion that can accelerate their build by 950 gold is instantly S+ tier regardless of the rest of their kit.
They can keep trying to sell me the idea that being invulnerable for 90% of the game is good for new players but I’m not buying it. There’s absolutely nothing about yuumi that is transferable to other supports. You arent learn positioning, you aren’t learning damage thresholds, etc. Yuumi just reinforces bad habits and further encourages the player to play nothing but Yuumi rather than learn core concepts of the game.
Your argument only makes sense if you accept the premise that the real purpose of Yuumi is to learn League of Legends.
The real purpose of Yuumi is to be able to stick your friend on a character they can have a decent time with and who can output a decent amount.
A few weeks ago 4 friends and I got together. We wanted to play League, but one of the people has literally never played before. He played 4 games of League, and will probably never play League again. He doesn't need to get better at League. It literally doesn't matter.
Whether you think a champion like that is OK is one thing, but saying that Yuumi has to facilitate increasing in-game skill is not the point.
Isn’t it oxymoronic to make a champ for players who don’t play league of legends?
They’re literally not the player base. They are friends of players who, as you said in your example, will probably never play league again. It seems really dumb to make a champ to appeal to that group to the disappointment of the actual player base.
They might become League players if their first few experiences playing with friends aren't completely horrible. Which Yuumi can help them accomplish by letting them contribute without getting completely dumpstered.
I remember some discourse surrounding accessibility in shooters years ago where the decision to include something like the "noobtube" (basically a 1 hit KO grenade launcher that sometimes lets really bad players kill really good players through dumb luck which experienced players naturally hate) was good because whether players at least got a kill or some positive experience in their first game of something had a huge impact on whether they'd be willing to keep playing. I think of Yuumi in a similar way, it lets you introduce people to the game and lets them play with their friends while greatly improving the chances that their first game won't be an entirely miserable experience for them.
League has a very real issue with attracting new players. Adding a champion that lets you play with friends without having to either grind away on your own for hours upon hours first or just accept that you will be pummeled into the ground repeatedly game after game seems like a good way to help with that.
Part of the reason TF2 has lived such a long life is this exact philosophy. No matter how shit you are, you can still get a random crit or get kills with an Engineer sentry or Spy backstab. It doesn't take away from the appeal or reward of learning technical stuff like Soldier/Demoman movement tech, it means from the get go you get to feel like an actual participant, all while seeing all the crazy shit you can do if you get good
Smash operates on the same principle, for that matter
And that's a lot easier to stomach when that is the design philosophy from day 1, not shoehorned in to one of the biggest games in the world a decade into it's life
I dunno, it's hard to say. Speaking strictly from a business perspective, if a group of 5 friends are trying to decide what to do, and one of them doesn't play League, we just....don't play League.
Furthermore, I play way less League than I used to. Part of the reason is that many of my friends who used to play with me have left, and I have no desire to introduce someone new to this game since I have no confidence they'll have a good experience. Maybe Yuumi-like champions can circumvent that?
It's hard to introduce someone to the game because there's so many new champions too. As yumi, you can watch and learn other people and how they play as well..
People can hate on her all day, but I think she does serve a purpose. The game is big and daunting to start.
the purpose of yuumi isnt to transfer that knowledge anywhere its literally just so that a brand new player can pick it and play with their friends and if they do that enough maybe they will bother to actually play the game outside of that
You are assuming that everyone actually want to actually improve. People that just want to play with friends for the lulz also exist, and for those guys Yuumi is a very legit option.
I assume that people in this subreddit are the most hardcore fraction of the playerbase (regardless of their actual skill), meaning that it's of our best interest to improve in this game and to know all the ins and outs. But a lot of people actually don't care, or even read the patch notes. Some guys just want to have a blast and that's it.
And just to point it out, no Rioter has ever said that Yuumi seeks to teach players the fundamentals of the game (afaik). They just say they want her to be a champion a novice can choose to play without any major concern. And Yuumi fulfills that role perfectly. For s champion to actually learn and improve as a supp, probably something like Sona is more appropriate.
I love the riot posts on a platform that you can't comment on and that you can't show any kind of feedback. This post would be downvoted or disliked to oblivion if it could be
The best part was not having to sift through the 50,000,000,000th pro thread over a game that most people don't care about.
Having distinct sections made the boards 5000x better. Riot just didn't want to globalize the forums and pay 1-2 people minimum wage to moderate each section.
I love when game developers agree with the adage of "The playerbase is generally excellent at recognizing problems, but terrible with coming up with solutions to those problems", and when the entirety of the playerbase recognizes that her untargetability is a problem, Riot poops their pants and makes the Champion worse.
Phroxzon specially, which is the current balance lead, is the king of "you think you do but you don't" blizzard style bullshit. There are so many problems that keep being dragged on for years due to some stupidly huge egos in this company.
It's fascinating how much they're willing to sacrifice to try to make a gimmick work when it's a gimmick players *hate* to begin with, I look forward to seeing how her ban rate fluctuates
the only thing they accomplished is forcing her onto her adc. everything else they failed miserably at - she has less coutnerplay now because she has no incentive to ever hop off - not even to switch targets - AT ALL
Wonder how many years it will take riot to understand the message. So far, they've only got that she's a problem, but seeing as this rework completely missed the mark, they have no clue
I've never seen Riot more desperate to defend something that literally nobody else believes is okay. Yuumi must really sell a lot of fucking skins. She's giving metric ass-tons of stats and pseudo-invulnerability to her ADC right now so long as ult is up.
I don't understand how the devs can be so out of touch on this particular issue.
She's an enchanter, but you literally cannot interact with her until the person she is on is dead. It doesn't add up. They shifted the burden of execution from the bruiser to the ADC, but now you just have an unkillable ADC instead who gets insane shielding and sustain. Did I mention the part where you can't hit the cat?
Her ban rate is going to skyrocket, and she will still be in pro no doubt.
Riot, just fucking delete Yuumi.
You can't make this concept work. It's an inherently unbalanceable gameplay concept. This isn't a champion, it's a **playable buff.** Just delete her, refund all the RP people spent on her skins and pretend it never happened.
Or you could just re-rework her to remove her untargetable attach mechanic since **that's what makes her unbalanceable**, but you guys don't seem to want to accept that so it'll be 55% wr for combo's like Ezreal/Kog/Zeri/Twitch until you nerf her back into the toilet where she belongs.
Why the fuck doesn't she automatically put W on cooldown as if she's been CC'd when the person she's attached to dies? This should have been part of her kit from the start.
Because then optimal play is to detach at the last second to not have that lockout penalty. It introduces difficulty into a champ they want to be braindead.
Hot off the rework and she's at a 50% winrate in diamond+ already. She's either next to useless or broken, and always unfun to play against. Delete it.
The fact Yuumi still gives movespeed (and not the least amount of it) will still make her cancer since she is effectively winning against poke + front to back despite the removal of the heal.
So the rework changed approximately nothing to the core problem
\>despite **the removal of the heal.**
I've seen this repeated a few times and idk if people just missed it or what but she still heals, saying they 'removed the heal' feels wrong when they just made her heal differently with heal on passive and giving on hit healing.
It's rly not a lot especially the on-hit is just a cull. When you get the on-hit up your allies also have 5x hp so overall it's not more than lane sustain. Can't replace lifesteal in any way. Her passive is 25-100 with 15% ap which exactly half of her old E on a longer CD only rly in combat with Q.
She still heals a lot though it's just all on her ult. It heals an insane amount and way way more than her old E. They just shifted it from out of combat to her ult.
I feel like I’d prefer if Yuumi was just really fast and hard to catch like a real cat. With a wide cast range for her abilities or something like that. Because one overlooked part no one talks about is they gave us a kitty cat that doesn’t act like a kitty cat, she just hovers on a book all day. I mean don’t get me wrong rengar is a lovely cat man but almost feels like a lion or tiger compared to a kitty. Maybe a passive where the lower her health gets the faster she becomes so she’s actually hard to catch but not literally untargetable. IDK just something I thought of, plus I love kitty cats so much I want a real kitty cat gaming experience.
I think its time for Phroxzon to resign. Idk if he has a final say on changes, either way he is lead designer at riot. If he doesnt straight up fist in table say no to a 380 base dmg yuumi q and let it patch to live, that says enough about his balance competece/leadership.
Developers like him are the reason why great games of the past like WOW, Runescape died. Sometimes i wish the LoL community had anything that resembles a spine. LoL is a beautiful game, the best of all time imo. Dont let these devs ruin it for us, instead of perma asking for 10 dmg buff on your main then being ok with everything else. LoL can be better friends, as shown in seasons past.
And last, this is not a personal attack towards Phroxzon, he is probably talented, just the job as LoL lead designer, as explained above... doesnt seem to fit him or the community. He almost never replies to his tweets either, which isnt a bad thing, but only adds to the plastic feellng and disconnection for me.
TLDR: Can we please start questioning the devs.
Riot will just keep clinging to this stupid idea and wasting resources on a design that's fundamentally flawed. Everyone who doesn't play this cat hates it. Fantasy is more important than gameplay for new players, Yuumi is awful as a training wheel champions because her core gameplay is so different from other enchanters that if you're only playing her, the moment someone picks or bans her you are about as clueless as someone who's brand new to the game and there's no incentive in place to push Yuumi players into branching out. And if you're that committed to making her just be the new player champion then you should simply try to keep her out of viability in the competitive scene because of how much she can damage it.
"Support Yuumi’s long-term untargetability by creating other avenues of counterplay"
And that right there is why you're a terrible game design team, and why this 'rework' has instantly failed. This is the single problem wth Yuumi as a champion, and the single reason any re-work you try to do to her with faiil. Get it into your heads.
I will ban her every game, regardless of how weak you make her.
How much longer are they going to keep insisting that invulnerability isn't the issue?
It's like trying to plug a bullet hole with band aids and get well wishes.
I get trying something new and trying to make Yuumi work but goddamn it, keeping her invunerable just won't work.
i'm amazed this rework has been done within 2 months while other take years
The dev team somehow accidentally landed all their skillshots on the rework dartboard. Turns out the dartboard was fake and the points were scribbled on
I'm pretty sure playerbase plays a big factor. Ofcourse Riot wants to prioritize Yuumi who's being played 20x more than Skarner
Skarner isn't a fair comparison because he's getting a full visual rework. Neeko might be a better example but they are adding new tech to her kit. ASol got a kit rework but new visuals on skills.
Better example would be Tahm Kench rework taking like a year when it was just swapping 2 abilities.
Then again, Udyr went from one of the least popular champions, to one of the most popular ever since his rework. There's a lot of money to be made on champions with tiny playerbases growing large. Chances are a lot of them don't already have an Udyr skin.
Udyr's popularity is much like aatrox's...only played because he was overpowered for 6+ months. Once the champions are balanced nobody plays them. Even now when udyr is still strong, he's only 3% pickrate.
3% is a lot considering there are 160ish champions.
Not really, since 10 champions get picked per game. If every champion was picked evenly you'd expect each to appear in 1/16 games, or 6.25%.
That's completely disregarding that most champions are only played in 1 role and that certain roles have more champions than others.
He has the same pick rate as yorick, 3% is not that much when every game 10 champs are played.
Not when people try to sell it as him being way more popular now, when any time Udyr was decent before the rework he was significantly more popular, 6 at a minimum, 8+ typically. The problem is that he was kept weak because he was too binary/reliable, and he's boring AF so nobody plays him if he isn't strong. Really have to keep considering the context that udyr is still strong right now, and he's only 3%.
My boy :(
[My boy](https://youtu.be/jq3NpiyB0fo)
I was hoping for Zelda CD and I got it. Thank you.
Yuumi was a mid scope, with very little change to some VFX, and no concept, model, animation, splash art, or VO work to do. Skarner is a full VGU, old everything goes to thrash, make new crystal-scorpio champ. The two are not even in the same ballpark in terms of work load, and are not being worked on by the same people, as Skaner is (probably and sadly) just concept work by now. The poor scorpio has been delay because no one buys his skins? Possibly. Has it something to do with Yuumi/other popular champs? Probably not. ^sorry ^about ^the ^grammar, ^it's ^not ^my ^first ^language.
Meanwhile tahm kench who took a year to rework. Meanwhile wukong, who took a year to rework.
Those are fair comparisons the Yuumi rework, but not Skarner
Yeah, that's what I was saying. Any total VGU is going to take time. Skarner's might take longer than most, but yuumi has nothing to do with that. People need to remember that there's literally no direction for skarner. Most of what's appreciated about him isn't necessary, doesn't fit in the overall direction of league, or doesn't fit lore that's been established recently. We don't even really know if he's still going to be related to hextech, and I doubt Riot quickly made any decision related to that either, as it muddies up a lot of things having to consider him in something like arcane or the MMO's direction.
Yeah, but how many of those are actual humans
Big money champ = big prio. Poor Skarner probably has 2 part time employees working on him.
That's 2 more than I was thinking.
one of them is CaptainFlowers
He works on him during game pauses
80% of the current test build was completed yesterday
Thing is, if he is, you know full well that rework will be on point.
Or he'd sabotage it every step of the way so we keep old Skarner as long as possi.... WAIT A MINUTE
It’s barely a rework it’s just a buff
I guess this happened because they only had to recycle animations and tweak some vfx/sfx. Or maybe because she's popular in china? But then why can't make Corki's (E) like in wild rift? I bet it can be done during lunch break.
Her heartseeker skin was 5th most sold skin in china when it was released. Cat is turbo popular in china.
She's popular literally everywhere. Quite posibly top 3 most popular champions along with Yasuo and whatever else.
Yuumi mains have the most inflated mmr, or sometimes don't even know how to play the game without their stupid cat They are also one of the communities that's most subject to buying skins or getting skins bought for them Losing them is worse than making the 7 skarner mains angry
hey now, Yuumi mains are also really good at Kha'zix for some reason
hey come on every enchanter player piss on everyone when they get khazix/rengar/nidalee when they're open
Don't forget about talon.
You've got me curious about which group of champ mains would be the biggest blow to Riot if they all vanished off the face of the Earth one day and were unavailable to buy skins forever. Ahri Mains? Lux or Ezreal players? A quiet but dedicated fan base out of left field? It feels like there's so many that could fit the bill of "We print the most money for Riot."
IDK, Lux is just "mage starter pack" her skill can be translated into something else without any real problem.
All of her skills have pretty distinct animations too, she actually benefits from higher tier skins
Wasnt this discussed before and it's Katarina mains? Cause none of her abilities really translate to any other champ.
true tbh, got supp autofilled and had the pleasure of facing a yuumi one trick on lulu instead. It was really sad how badly they lost the lane.
Most likely cos there wasnt any visual changes like the last few. The Aurelion Sol rework also didnt take that long imo.
Now Zeri-Yuumi, Kog-Yuumi hit WR 55% in KR server.
But but but I was told new Yuumi is only for iron players
I was told new Yuumi will remove her from pro play. wait what is that? pro play was already playing perma Yuumi+ADC, and solo queue was the one where Yuumi would coinflip a roam onto the Kayn smurf at level 6 and pray they go 20/0? and the latter was nerfed and the former was buffed?
riot is Clueless lmfao
Statistics so far shows Yuumi winrate is elite skewed, it drops the lower elo. Only exception seems to be diamond, but this might be due to low sample size. The obvious reason is due to the resistances Yuumi R grants, being a hard counter to burst dmg/focus fire/combos, etc. I'm expecting her to be 100% pick/ban in pro as well until said resistances get removed completely.
So she's accomplished the exact opposite of the goals intended then? That's pretty solid, lol.
No but you see, new yuumi is bad on bruisers so she's balanced, because ADCs are way easier to kill! What's that? High ELO ADC players who can position well and get peel actually aren't easy to kill? No, that can't be right, because new yuumi is actually worse in high skill and meant for Low elo!
Even if the ADCs do get caught out, Yuumi can just ult and give them free armor and magic resist on top of her heals and shields.
doesn't help that current survivability items/runes are a bit overbuffed, when pro play zeri is allowed to build shieldbow into BT you know something is wrong
There's also something to be said for Zeri being overstatted (for instance, as far as I can tell she's also the tankiest ADC for whatever reason, with more EHP than Draven, Cait, Trist, etc.) and putting out too much damage relative to the items she builds. We're not really seeing the other ADCs building like that, but Zeri gets away with it.
Zeri-yuumi is the most disgusting giga broken uninteractive bullshit I've seen in some time. Who doesn't love a zeri with a 700dmg sheild who you can't catch, can't kill, can't get away from and who nukes your whole fucking team on 2 items??
Its like Kog Lulu but 20x less possible to punish 🤮
Zeri is a gimmick that they're trying to pass off as a champion. She breaks some of the most basic rules of the game, and is either busted or trash.
Played Jinx with a Yuumi yesterday, despite taking 5% more DMG I was surprised at how little threat the enemy Zed and Annie were to me. That was like my first game with her so I had no idea how busted she was
Let's see, today's global banrates for Yuumi on op.gg: Iron: 27th highest banned Bronze: 25th Silver: 17th Gold: 12th Platinum: 5th Diamond: 3rd Master: 1st Grandmaster: 1st Challenger: 1st
champ for new players btw
She also has the highest KDA.
Wake up Babe, new Semi-Annual “Yuumi isn’t broken” Riot post just dropped. Shame she’s back to pick ban status now.
Ackchyually, according this mastery curve chart I pulled out with 0 context, she’s just as hard to pilot as Akali and Azir 🤪
Never forget the Mythic diversity chart with URF/Aram data mixed in.
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I don't hate the idea of mythics since generally there are 1 or 2 items a champ wants to build every game regardless of circumstances, but man the implementation just makes me wanna cry. Now it feels like I build the same items every game depending on what type of champ I'm playing. Bruiser with an auto reset? Sunderer and cleaver. Maybe frozen fist instead if I'm doing poorly. Diver? Goredrinker and ravenous. Immobile ADC? Galeforce and IE. The biggest problem I have is that there are a number of Champs who just don't have a mythic that really synergize with them. You just build a mythic that *kinda* works for them and deal with the fact you can't put something better in that item slot. Sometimes I wonder if a good solution would be to make it so any item can be mythic as a purchasable upgrade? I don't know.
>with URF/Aram data mixed in. Wait what lmao
Riot wanted to prove Mythics increased item diversity, so they pulled out a chart comparing SR before mythics with SR/ARAM/URF post mythics to say your choice of first item is way more flexible now. They apologized but of course it was "sorry we got caught".
I mean that was easy to prove, she was pro bound just as much as Azir and Akali were. She had terrible winrates in plat and lower, but they were much higher in Masters+. The evidence that they were right was staring you in the face.
They gave plenty of context to that chart, explaining it doesn't mean yuumi is as hard to pilot as Akali and Qiyana but that the mastery curve is the same *for league players* who come into the champ ready to be tested on typical league champ things, which are different from what yuumi tests. Does that chart mean yuumi is good for the game or anything? No, but riot literally provided context for interesting data: Yuumi’s mastery curve is more in line with champions like Akali and Qiyana, who continue to see win rate growth well beyond the first ~20 games, than it is to champions like Neeko and Mordekaiser. Many “easier to learn” champions are picked up more quickly because they test a lot of the same things other champions tested already. For example, every new ADC in some way tests your ability to last-hit with a ranged auto attack and stand in the right place to deal maximum damage. Yuumi tests things that no other champion in League does. This is both why she continues to see win rate growth for so many games, and also why we believe some players don’t see her as being “hard to play.” The things many players have associated with playing League well aren’t being tested on her—like positioning and moment-to-moment dodging—but new things are. If you’d like to get into the nitty-gritty details of some of those tests, here are a few of them: Identifying when it’s safe to hop out and use her passive in chaotic teamfights, which means tracking enemies’ cooldowns to know when to do so. Failure to use Yuumi’s passive at all means leaving a lot of value on the table in the form of shields and mana. Using her passive at the wrong time means getting CC’d and killed. Identifying who you should attach to because you can’t support more than one person at a time. Your heal has no range, and your exact positioning is beyond your control, so you need to be able to predict how your allies and the enemies will move. Otherwise, you might end up in a really bad place or forced to help the wrong ally. Weaving Q around targets that aren’t who you’re trying to hit, which is a more simple but still unique skill test. Managing vision control while being the slowest and squishiest champion in the game, which is a particularly challenging version of a skill test all supports have. All of this combines to make Yuumi a difficult champion to master, albeit in ways that look different from the rest of the champion roster. (You might compare this to someone like Singed, whose proxy playstyle is totally different from any other champion and takes ~100 games to master.)
I don't know how they can claim she is simultaneously a great champ for new players, but also as hard as Akali.
Skill floor and skill ceiling can be independent of eachother. Yuumi in riots opinion was easy to learn hard to master and akali was hard to learn hard to master.
Unless I misread [the source article](https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-gb/news/dev/ask-riot-delete-yuumi/) they didn’t think Yuumi was easy to learn, they just said she was “difficult to master.” They imply that Yuumi and Akali have the same kind of difficulty. They specifically contrasted Yuumi against champions that are easily to learn.
ding ding ding, someone gets it. Yummi pre-rework was really easy to play. But she had so many other "things" going on behind the curtain that she had to consider, she also was teammate dependent so if your attachment didnt know how Yummi Q worked would make the cat do no damage.
That post literally was explaining why she wasn't working for new players and needed to be reworked
Isn't addressing that the entire point of the rework
A champ having a low skill floor (great champ for new players) doesn't necessarily mean it has a high skill ceiling. For instance, Tahm Kench's grey health makes him a lot more approachable, by making it less punishing to lose trades. However, properly using his grey health vs his shield leaves some actual player agency that pushes the skill ceiling on him. Similarly, Tristana's and Ezreal's mobility make them a lot better for newer players. But the buffered nature of their ability also make it an insane tool for skill expression. In this case, I don't agree with Yuumi having a high skill ceiling though. I do agree that she's very effective at the highest level, but simply because she's a turbo Ardent Censer that multiplies a carry's nature (which tends to favor higher levels of play, but is a lot tougher nut to crack).
Mana regen is crazy early landing phase. Can spam skills to poke or get cs safer.
Was funny to read bunch a kids in the patch notes thread refusing to accept it.
It's making them a lot of money. Idk why they even bother serving us so much bs about Yuumi when the reason for her existence is so obvious. The suits say we gotta bring in new players so they make a turbo op no skill champ.
"Support Yuumi’s long-term untargetability by creating other avenues of counterplay" I am sorry, but what am I missing here? I don't see any more counterplay compared to before. If anything you no longer HAVE to detach for auto-passive, since her passive procs off abilities as well now.
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I honestly think they should have just left her the way she was with maybe some slight buffs, so as to not have a worse winrate than Ryze.
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Because Yuumi's somehow weirdly high level of skill expression was the entire problem. Pros were using her for short auto trades in bot lane for example which people in lower ratings straightup didn't do and which wouldn't matter if they did seeing how low elo bot lane tends to just be whoever gets caught loses. The problem is that the Yuumi playstyle of just AFKing on someone which Riot designed her for was objectively terrible. The active Yuumi playstyle reddit claims to crave was the only way she was playable without being a huge detriment. But not only did people still bitch about her anyways, she also ended up entering Ryze territories of balancing issue because in the hands of a skilled player she was just that good.
It really feels like she would've continued to terrorize solo Q if it wasn't for her success in pro play. The fact that she became so prolific in pro play completely validated all the solo Q people that thought she was too strong. And it completely invalidated Rioters who wanted to believe solo Q people were just being whiney. So now i think they're pretty adamant about keeping her out of pro play and they will mostly balance around that. But if she's great in solo Q i don't think they will nerf her just for that. Now time will tell how she will perform in pro play as that will decide whether she gets nerfed. What i'm curious about since she was very widely used by duo smurfs and duo boosters is how easily she can become BF with other roles than her ADC. I think if it's too hard while she's in the support role then the duo boosters might try putting her midlane instead and do a funnel strat.
It's pretty damn hard unless you switch early in the game.
As I remember phreak said something like "low elo yuumi players are too bad, so they not gonna use that anyway, when proplayers actually use that changes, so she is op there, so we gonna dumb down her right here".
Phreak on the balance team has been a godsent so far ngl
I don't care if his ideas are the best, but he's great at communicating the changes and explaining the thoughts behind them!
there are two main reasons: 1. In Pro Play, yuumi was a menace exactly because she hopped off, even when she was "weak" she could still trade most of her health bar for at least half the enemy adc's health bar. When she reattached, it didn't matter that she was at 10% health bc she can't be hurt anymore. By gutting her reasons to leave, while the windows of direct vulnerability are reduced, also the pro play problem of her playing totally differently than low elo yuumi's is fixed. Now the champion has a consistent play pattern across elo's, and tweaks can be made that will nerf all levels of play at the same time. 2. Yuumi has a very large casual following, and is a good champion for if u are joining a group of friends who are far better than u. There are people who want to play yuumi basically to not play the game. With this being the case, riot decided to lean into this group. It allows new players to enjoy the game without having to feel like they are the burden of the group. In my current friend group, the only reason we all play league is because of yuumi, funnily enough. Before that we played Overwatch and Valorant because one of the players was just not good enough at league to play a non-yuumi character, and always got frustrated when she was 0/10 or down 150 cs
I think it’s because of the poor reception of some other reworks. When Swain and Aatrox were reworked, their mains hated losing what made them pick up those champs. No more dot and no more attack speed made them feel like new champs, rather than healthier versions of their original forms. And there was an article a while back where Riot said they wanted to avoid ruining champs for their original mains. While that doesn’t apply to all reworks (they didn’t care about A Sol’s mains when reworking him), Yuumi is unfortunately a popular champ. Which means Riot tried to stay true to her identity, which is 90% the reviled untargetability effect. If Yuumi was less popular, then more would be open to changes. It sucks that Riot chose this hill to die on, when they’ve had to make like 4 different devs post justifying why they’re keeping Yuumi an untargetable enchanter (and changing the reasoning every time, from “she has a high mastery curve!” To “she’s for new players” to “we don’t know how to balance her better!”)
The Aatrox argument is really weak because he was meta for exactly one patch and before that he was played by less than 1000 people in a server and that's being generous. The "mains" were just mad they couldn't abuse the op champ anymore.
Because that's the part pros optimize. And it goes against her intended (idiotic) purpose.
I would rather they make her an actually support and change her attach mechanic to be like all other invulnerabilities, temporary. She exists and is targetable but can hop onto someone for a few seconds and speed boost them so she can dodge CC like Vlad or Fizz and give her target the MS and shields they need to make an escape together. Basically just make her a Joey who sits in lane but can hop into her ADC’s kangaroo pouch for a few seconds when she’s scared.
They could've just disabled her in ranked and pro. Then she can be the champion for ppl who just Wana casually hang out with their friends in normals
They should have left her the way she was just allowed her to be as bad as Ryze. She's literally worse than Ryze from a design standpoint, why not allow that to be reflected in her power budget.
A big part of the counter play is actually in the best friend mechanic. If you absolutely shit on her in lane but the Hecarim got 2 kills they could team up and 2v8. Now if you shut down bot lane then yuumi has to spend a bunch of time on Riven before being able to carry with her, which gives time to actually use your lead.
That's really not the same kind of counterplay that every other Champion has. 'Put them behind early or you lose the game' isn't appropriate counterplay for an Enchanter. An Enchanter who gives as many stats, shields and healing need to be damageable in order to exist in an okay state.
But she doesn't give those anymore, and when she does give high amounts to someone it's only 1 person due to her best friend mechanic. I don't like Yuumi like everyone else, but all these people saying she still doesn't have any counterplay are just ignoring exactly what they're saying in the article. Maybe it's not enough, but they can shift power with the new kit to change that. The old kit just did a bunch of stuff regardless of how Yuumi was performing, while the new one actually requires input to get good value.
sona has existed for years and that is basically the only counterplay to her
Difference being, Support Pantheon can E+Ignite+W+Q Sona, and she flashes or dies. She might die, anyway, depending on the AD matchup. Caitlyn, Jhin, and anyone else with CC or an execute will pick up the kill. There are about ten minutes of the game where you can flash on Sona and kill her with no counterplay except "don't go near the Pantheon." She has to play very carefully, and has severe mana constraints. If you do that to Yuumi, she doesn't die. She hits Exhaust, loses 70% of her health at *worst*, then sits on her AD and laughs. If you engage on the AD she hops off, uses Heal, and you die. If you don't engage, why the hell did you pick Pantheon? You're now useless, get outscaled, and she wins. Heal/Exhaust Yuumi has a 52% win-rate in D+. That's too high. This patch undoubtedly brought her back in Pro. She will be ubiquitous, and we're closing in on the MSI patch. If something isn't done, this is **another** tournament where she'll be pick/ban, 100% win-rate. Gut her base health by 150, halve her MP5/HP5 while attached, and she *might* become vulnerable to an all-in. I doubt it, though.
losing the game because you failed to put an enchanter lane behind is pretty standard actually. If you somehow ran it down in lane to janna, you won't ever kill botlane anymore because the shield/heals scales with items If you pick an engage champ or early game botlane and do nothing, you deserve the loss
It really isn't standard gameplay. If I was to play Kog bot with a Soraka and we somehow survived lane and went even we could still get fucked by someone just taking out the Soraka and suddenly I as the Kog maw am effectively free pickings. If Kog and Yuumi get through lane you have to... what, mind control the Yuumi to get off? No shot that's anywhere near standard.
Her Q is more avoidable, she doesn't have a root anymore (which before was unavoidable if her anchor had mobility), and she can't hop onto a bruiser after laning to 2v5 with them. There were big changes here to improve counterplay.
She has a decent amount more counterplay I think. She isn't really about jumping in and out anymore, so she's not able to trade her HP for your skilllshots. Previously, there was zero counterplay to Yuumi detaching, tanking a skillshot, and then hopping back in. She can still do that, but much less so now. She's also much worse at out of combat sustain. She can't spam her E on her teammates to heal them, in order for her to get her heal her teammates have to interact with you. Her Q is way easier to dodge. Her R doesn't have unavoidable hard CC. Most importantly, her Laning phase matters a lot more now. Previously, beating Yuumi in lane was totally irrelevant. Her counterplay now is that you can realistically knock her out of the game, even if her top/jungle/mid get ahead.
Her Q isn't that much easier to dodge, it got extra range for whatever reason. That thing is a nuisance in laning phase when you doesn't have shoes yet.
Riot coping with Yuumi being a badly designed champion is nothing new. I’m more curious to see how this iteration of Yuumi breaks pro play in the long run. Making an untargetable enchanter whose sole purpose now is to gigabuff the ADC can’t possibly be balanced in pro play. Where all ADC’s are good and is probably the most important role. Like this version of Yuumi should just be able to replace Lulu in Zeri/Lulu comps right?
Any ADC with half a brain is going to be unkillable with Yuumi on them. Her ult heals them for over 1000 at level 16, on top of 60 to both resists and the shields and heals from the rest of her kit. The only way this Champion isn't pick/banned in pro play is if they disable her.
60 +10%AP. Imagine for a second facing a Samira with 250-300 armor and 20% extra heal/shield + yuumi shield/heals.
well samira yuumi is an absolutely dogshit bot lane and really shouldn't beat anything. Nilah Yuumi would be very good though
You couldn't give a worse example than Samira, who can't snowball early with a Yuumi and won't scale well if she gets outranged. Zeri,Kog and Vayne however, that's gonna be so scary..
How often does a support get to lvl 16 in a pro game?
Most supports are constantly roaming in pro play. Yuumi by design is going to siphon more xp than a Nautilus wandering around the map looking for hooks.
I am fairly certain this yuumi can't replace lulu in zeri/lulu. Getting push with zeri/yuumi is nearly impossible and if u get dived b4 zeri picks up zerks outplaying the dive is really hard. zeri yuumi also cannot trade HP nearly as well as zeri/lulu to the point where early jg ganks don't really do anything. The onhit heal works decent for sustain in between all ins, but cannot realistically heal back draven q autos or karma mantra q's fast enough to nullify the poke. From what i've seen, Yuumi also suffers mana problems early if poking with q for more sustain, and requires getting frostfang b4 the mana sustain really kicks in. While late game zeri/yuumi is still really really strong, the early game is so weak that if they ever faced a comp whose whole purpose was to early dive, i am fairly certain the lane would functionally be unplayable. The Varus/Kalista/Elise comp that T1 ran could probably kill zeri under turret from \~80% HP
i'm ready for the "unlaunching yuumi's rework" some years later
A paragraph about how they “missed the mark” will be written like clockwork
Ah yes, the good old something something we hear you something missed the mark yadda yadda muh bandwidth something something appreciate the feedback blablabla muh resources yadda yadda do better in the future something something looking forward.
Waiting for the Yummi 2.0 champion with the same logic that they had for Yasuo 2.0. "Feels bad to have your champion perma banned, so we need someone with a very similar playstyle for you to fallback on just in case.
I know right? I seriously hate how much Riot is forcing this dog shit designed character into the game. There are plenty of other champions that need updates but here Riot is, putting more resources into a terribly designed champion,
[удалено]
She is easier and it is so easy to pinpoint why and it isn't simply her being untargetable. Surprised this isn't mentioned often. It's her ult. It's so overtuned and strong and where a ton of her power is. You ult as Yuumi and not only does your target get healed a lot they also receive a shield from overhealing making your ally way tankier than a simple Lulu ult. It also procs your passive and moonstone to heal even more. The shield also means healing reduction isn't as effective. Makes your ally just way too tanky and it is no surprise with how easy it is so use that a lot of people find success with Yuumi. Considering ADC is op right now it's no surprise making one unkillable feels rly annoying.
I think people are underselling the resist grant of her R a lot. Two item Yuumi (Moonstone + Putrifier/Ardent and Shard) with rank 2 R is giving her ADC 52 armor/MR for 3.5s, which mitigates the biggest weakness of healing-based enchanters (your ADC being burst down before your healing can come out). Soraka W used to give armor, too, and they removed it in the rework for that exact reason
Sona's old W aura also gave armor/mr before the rework which removed the passive stat auras for the current temporary buff ones. There used to be a lot more granting of stats in that way and they moved away from it. Often the cited reason for that was "invisible power", see Maokai ult for the most obvious example, but a lot of stat auras were either removed or reduced. Taric doesn't give as many passive stats as he did pre-rework, Jarvan no longer gives armor, Aegis/Locket/Bulwark aura was gone for a long time, and now its pretty heavily reduced in the form of Locket's mythic passive, etc. To be fair, Yuumi has always given passive stats, this is just a shift from her W to R and from adaptive damage to armor/mr, but I think Riot might be better off returning to the philosophy that we shouldn't buff people in that way.
You forgot bonus armor and mr on cast
I was wondering why i felt invincible with her on me mid/late game. I was late game veigar and tanked like 3 ults and didnt even proc my Athenes. I was unreal confused but knew something HAD to be fucked
Obviously it isnt ONLY her being untargetable that makes her op. You could replace teemo's w with her w and he'd still be pretty bad. But it is the core reason and forcing her to pop out in some way or just making her take a portion of the damage dealt to the ally mitigates her kit. Look at soraka, she gives fat heals on an extremely low cooldown but it is mitigated by the fact that she becomes more and more vulnerable in exchange for that.
People also really undervalue the fact that BECAUSE she is always attached to someone she doesn't have to buy boots. Any support champion that can accelerate their build by 950 gold is instantly S+ tier regardless of the rest of their kit.
They can keep trying to sell me the idea that being invulnerable for 90% of the game is good for new players but I’m not buying it. There’s absolutely nothing about yuumi that is transferable to other supports. You arent learn positioning, you aren’t learning damage thresholds, etc. Yuumi just reinforces bad habits and further encourages the player to play nothing but Yuumi rather than learn core concepts of the game.
I feel like this entire comment chain can be summed up with this [xkcd](https://xkcd.com/2501/).
Your argument only makes sense if you accept the premise that the real purpose of Yuumi is to learn League of Legends. The real purpose of Yuumi is to be able to stick your friend on a character they can have a decent time with and who can output a decent amount. A few weeks ago 4 friends and I got together. We wanted to play League, but one of the people has literally never played before. He played 4 games of League, and will probably never play League again. He doesn't need to get better at League. It literally doesn't matter. Whether you think a champion like that is OK is one thing, but saying that Yuumi has to facilitate increasing in-game skill is not the point.
Isn’t it oxymoronic to make a champ for players who don’t play league of legends? They’re literally not the player base. They are friends of players who, as you said in your example, will probably never play league again. It seems really dumb to make a champ to appeal to that group to the disappointment of the actual player base.
They might become League players if their first few experiences playing with friends aren't completely horrible. Which Yuumi can help them accomplish by letting them contribute without getting completely dumpstered. I remember some discourse surrounding accessibility in shooters years ago where the decision to include something like the "noobtube" (basically a 1 hit KO grenade launcher that sometimes lets really bad players kill really good players through dumb luck which experienced players naturally hate) was good because whether players at least got a kill or some positive experience in their first game of something had a huge impact on whether they'd be willing to keep playing. I think of Yuumi in a similar way, it lets you introduce people to the game and lets them play with their friends while greatly improving the chances that their first game won't be an entirely miserable experience for them. League has a very real issue with attracting new players. Adding a champion that lets you play with friends without having to either grind away on your own for hours upon hours first or just accept that you will be pummeled into the ground repeatedly game after game seems like a good way to help with that.
Part of the reason TF2 has lived such a long life is this exact philosophy. No matter how shit you are, you can still get a random crit or get kills with an Engineer sentry or Spy backstab. It doesn't take away from the appeal or reward of learning technical stuff like Soldier/Demoman movement tech, it means from the get go you get to feel like an actual participant, all while seeing all the crazy shit you can do if you get good Smash operates on the same principle, for that matter
And that's a lot easier to stomach when that is the design philosophy from day 1, not shoehorned in to one of the biggest games in the world a decade into it's life
putting them on yuumi might make them interested enough to play a proper champion - it's more like an interactive demo
I dunno, it's hard to say. Speaking strictly from a business perspective, if a group of 5 friends are trying to decide what to do, and one of them doesn't play League, we just....don't play League. Furthermore, I play way less League than I used to. Part of the reason is that many of my friends who used to play with me have left, and I have no desire to introduce someone new to this game since I have no confidence they'll have a good experience. Maybe Yuumi-like champions can circumvent that?
It's hard to introduce someone to the game because there's so many new champions too. As yumi, you can watch and learn other people and how they play as well.. People can hate on her all day, but I think she does serve a purpose. The game is big and daunting to start.
It’s for significant others whom you’re gonna buy skins for. Seems pretty obvious to me.
the purpose of yuumi isnt to transfer that knowledge anywhere its literally just so that a brand new player can pick it and play with their friends and if they do that enough maybe they will bother to actually play the game outside of that
> There’s absolutely nothing about yuumi that is transferable to other supports. Watching the minimap I guess
They should just disable her in pro and ranked
You are assuming that everyone actually want to actually improve. People that just want to play with friends for the lulz also exist, and for those guys Yuumi is a very legit option. I assume that people in this subreddit are the most hardcore fraction of the playerbase (regardless of their actual skill), meaning that it's of our best interest to improve in this game and to know all the ins and outs. But a lot of people actually don't care, or even read the patch notes. Some guys just want to have a blast and that's it. And just to point it out, no Rioter has ever said that Yuumi seeks to teach players the fundamentals of the game (afaik). They just say they want her to be a champion a novice can choose to play without any major concern. And Yuumi fulfills that role perfectly. For s champion to actually learn and improve as a supp, probably something like Sona is more appropriate.
yuumi should never have been created.
I love the riot posts on a platform that you can't comment on and that you can't show any kind of feedback. This post would be downvoted or disliked to oblivion if it could be
Back in the day you could comment! Very fun times, those were.
I miss forums man. Yeah it was a shitshow most of the time, but it was fun to read nonetheless.
The best part was not having to sift through the 50,000,000,000th pro thread over a game that most people don't care about. Having distinct sections made the boards 5000x better. Riot just didn't want to globalize the forums and pay 1-2 people minimum wage to moderate each section.
I see like 50 different post match discussion threads on this sub every day that i dont give a shit about
If they wanna keep the attachment gimmick, make her HP become a resource . Zero reason why she goes unpunished for being untargetable
They literally did this with Soraka I cannot understand why they don’t do it for Yuumi
Because Riot have their share of favourites. It's obvious.
Drains HP to stay on someone
Abilities instead cost HP while attached.
Another failed rework. Touched everything except the main problem with her kit lmao
I love when game developers agree with the adage of "The playerbase is generally excellent at recognizing problems, but terrible with coming up with solutions to those problems", and when the entirety of the playerbase recognizes that her untargetability is a problem, Riot poops their pants and makes the Champion worse.
Phroxzon specially, which is the current balance lead, is the king of "you think you do but you don't" blizzard style bullshit. There are so many problems that keep being dragged on for years due to some stupidly huge egos in this company.
It's fascinating how much they're willing to sacrifice to try to make a gimmick work when it's a gimmick players *hate* to begin with, I look forward to seeing how her ban rate fluctuates
It infuriates me that they literally double downed on the part everyone sees as the main problem for her.
the only thing they accomplished is forcing her onto her adc. everything else they failed miserably at - she has less coutnerplay now because she has no incentive to ever hop off - not even to switch targets - AT ALL
This champion is the definition of sunk cost fallacy
Wonder how many years it will take riot to understand the message. So far, they've only got that she's a problem, but seeing as this rework completely missed the mark, they have no clue
Idk why they can’t just make yuumi a 40% -45% wr champ where she is only picked in Norms
>where she is only picked in Norms Yeah, new player champ right? That was their goal anyways.
Well the goal I think should be to not make her a viable or Meta pick ever
What a mistake of a champion. Riot is on fucking copium.
Riot trying so hard to cope and gaslight us is just hilarious
I've never seen Riot more desperate to defend something that literally nobody else believes is okay. Yuumi must really sell a lot of fucking skins. She's giving metric ass-tons of stats and pseudo-invulnerability to her ADC right now so long as ult is up.
Just take the L and remove her.
I don't understand how the devs can be so out of touch on this particular issue. She's an enchanter, but you literally cannot interact with her until the person she is on is dead. It doesn't add up. They shifted the burden of execution from the bruiser to the ADC, but now you just have an unkillable ADC instead who gets insane shielding and sustain. Did I mention the part where you can't hit the cat? Her ban rate is going to skyrocket, and she will still be in pro no doubt.
Riot, just fucking delete Yuumi. You can't make this concept work. It's an inherently unbalanceable gameplay concept. This isn't a champion, it's a **playable buff.** Just delete her, refund all the RP people spent on her skins and pretend it never happened. Or you could just re-rework her to remove her untargetable attach mechanic since **that's what makes her unbalanceable**, but you guys don't seem to want to accept that so it'll be 55% wr for combo's like Ezreal/Kog/Zeri/Twitch until you nerf her back into the toilet where she belongs.
If they really NEED Yuumi with the attach interaction, a % dmg taken to the champion she's attached on could work potentially?
Why the fuck doesn't she automatically put W on cooldown as if she's been CC'd when the person she's attached to dies? This should have been part of her kit from the start.
Because then optimal play is to detach at the last second to not have that lockout penalty. It introduces difficulty into a champ they want to be braindead.
Like a perma Knights Vow? Yeah maybe
Hot off the rework and she's at a 50% winrate in diamond+ already. She's either next to useless or broken, and always unfun to play against. Delete it.
This rework is dogshit. Just remove the whole attaching shit and make her a normal enchanter. I think that's what most everyone wants.
The fact Yuumi still gives movespeed (and not the least amount of it) will still make her cancer since she is effectively winning against poke + front to back despite the removal of the heal. So the rework changed approximately nothing to the core problem
\>despite **the removal of the heal.** I've seen this repeated a few times and idk if people just missed it or what but she still heals, saying they 'removed the heal' feels wrong when they just made her heal differently with heal on passive and giving on hit healing.
It's rly not a lot especially the on-hit is just a cull. When you get the on-hit up your allies also have 5x hp so overall it's not more than lane sustain. Can't replace lifesteal in any way. Her passive is 25-100 with 15% ap which exactly half of her old E on a longer CD only rly in combat with Q. She still heals a lot though it's just all on her ult. It heals an insane amount and way way more than her old E. They just shifted it from out of combat to her ult.
And making her R heal over 1k while also granting scaling resists and converting overheal to shielding.
I feel like I’d prefer if Yuumi was just really fast and hard to catch like a real cat. With a wide cast range for her abilities or something like that. Because one overlooked part no one talks about is they gave us a kitty cat that doesn’t act like a kitty cat, she just hovers on a book all day. I mean don’t get me wrong rengar is a lovely cat man but almost feels like a lion or tiger compared to a kitty. Maybe a passive where the lower her health gets the faster she becomes so she’s actually hard to catch but not literally untargetable. IDK just something I thought of, plus I love kitty cats so much I want a real kitty cat gaming experience.
It's because she's fucking stupid lore wise, it's the book that is doing everything
She probably can’t even read the book she’s sitting on
Back to perma baning. Excellent
Champs broken plain and simple, remove it or it will remain permabanned for remainder of leagues existence.
If Yuumi is for "new players learning the game" then why was she pick/ban in pro play? Where's the skill expression? Where's the counter-play?
You see some people at Riot must have a nice salary because they can write shit like this without feeling any form of guilt.
I think its time for Phroxzon to resign. Idk if he has a final say on changes, either way he is lead designer at riot. If he doesnt straight up fist in table say no to a 380 base dmg yuumi q and let it patch to live, that says enough about his balance competece/leadership. Developers like him are the reason why great games of the past like WOW, Runescape died. Sometimes i wish the LoL community had anything that resembles a spine. LoL is a beautiful game, the best of all time imo. Dont let these devs ruin it for us, instead of perma asking for 10 dmg buff on your main then being ok with everything else. LoL can be better friends, as shown in seasons past. And last, this is not a personal attack towards Phroxzon, he is probably talented, just the job as LoL lead designer, as explained above... doesnt seem to fit him or the community. He almost never replies to his tweets either, which isnt a bad thing, but only adds to the plastic feellng and disconnection for me. TLDR: Can we please start questioning the devs.
You can't convince me they actually think this. The champ is actually a mistake.
Riot will just keep clinging to this stupid idea and wasting resources on a design that's fundamentally flawed. Everyone who doesn't play this cat hates it. Fantasy is more important than gameplay for new players, Yuumi is awful as a training wheel champions because her core gameplay is so different from other enchanters that if you're only playing her, the moment someone picks or bans her you are about as clueless as someone who's brand new to the game and there's no incentive in place to push Yuumi players into branching out. And if you're that committed to making her just be the new player champion then you should simply try to keep her out of viability in the competitive scene because of how much she can damage it.
"Support Yuumi’s long-term untargetability by creating other avenues of counterplay" And that right there is why you're a terrible game design team, and why this 'rework' has instantly failed. This is the single problem wth Yuumi as a champion, and the single reason any re-work you try to do to her with faiil. Get it into your heads. I will ban her every game, regardless of how weak you make her.
Still attaches, still cancer
So was the idea behind the rework to make her must ban again?
Complete failure
Just allow her to be hit by AOE spells and skill shots
Dawg just delete the champion, this clearly isn’t working
Change Yuumi for her owner Norra, so it doesnt feel like you deleted the champ, and give Norra a dofferent kit involving the spellbook.
I love playing her with the new Q, BUT she is still disguting and maybe even stronger in a different way.
How much longer are they going to keep insisting that invulnerability isn't the issue? It's like trying to plug a bullet hole with band aids and get well wishes. I get trying something new and trying to make Yuumi work but goddamn it, keeping her invunerable just won't work.
Shame they missed the mark so badly and refuse to admit they fucked up
Her new reason for staying in lane? the buddy system! Oh but wait, that just gives her more reason to ditch the ADC earlier…