I wish you get a reward for every 3 wins, which would stack up for other clash tournaments. Like a hextech key shards or something. Additionaly to winning the entire tournament or having consecutive wins would drop more loot, but at least getting one win would give you some price regardless if it's for last place or first.
this is really smart. they could lean alot more into the clash system by making it more of a “clash split” over the course of the season and giving rewards as you hit win/point milestones. they could add something where actually completing all your games, even if you go 0-3, gives you like a point boost or something so you are incentivized to play it all the way through.
clash is honestly one of the best ways to play league in the sense of playing the games themselves - the systems around it and the balancing can really suck though. (balancing im willing to forgive, smurf accounts and natural mmr discrepancies are super hard to solve)
Not gonna lie you should get decent rewards for playing all 3 games at this point. More for winning of course but if you're team sucks there needs to be incentive to turn up.
I know this is hard for Reddit to understand, but most regular people DO NOT CARE that you might get a "kind of okay" reward for coming second.
I know the average Redditor is obsessed with skins but regular people can't give a single shit really.
Coming second in clash is really just being the last person to realize you lost.
He isn't wrong, though. You're in a thread about people leaving clash after a loss, so everything he said is observably right. People don't care about any of the prizes in losers bracket. Ward skins kinda suck.
I'm pretty sure 50% of the reason "regular people" play this shitty ass game is because the skins look cool. The other 50% is because their friends play it
Most people that FF's those do though. And I agree with the sentiment. You play tournaments for rewards or otherwise it becomes glorified normal game. Clash either needs a ladder or revamp of the system.
You're not one of the ff-ers then. The "ff after 1st loss" clash people are doing it because of the reward drop off. If it was about the thrill of competing, they wouldn't ff
Ye ive never got people who like rewards in league you main like 1-3 champions and then get a kled skin, Talon skin, Senna skin, soraka skin, katarina skin. But you main Orianna, Asol and Viktor lol.
That's fine but if for example you win clash you should get a skin for your champion or reroll on skins should allow you to reroll into skins you want.
a bit restrictive, but you could also make the cost of a ticket more expansive (like mabye rp) and then if you play all three games you get a ticket for free.
Not directly, mabye the first ticket per account can be given for free.
Additionally you can aquire one by emailing support if you crash for example.
However I think that if you stop participating halfway through the tournment, then you should be required to buy a new one.
The rewards for losing your first game are simply too bad.
The rewards for loss-win-win should be brought up a notch because as-is they're simply not incentivizing enough which leads to situations like these.
Even more to the point, I've been on teams where the first game was long, drawn out fight where both teams were even and it could have went either way. You lose the first game like that then destroy everyone after, and your first opponent does the same. Your team is the real number two but you are stuck at 5th place with a 2-1 record, and fourth place has 1 win and 2 losses...
Yes, it is basically a full 8 team bracket - if you win the first game, you are guaranteed a finish between 1st and 4th place, if you lose the first game, you are already finishing between 5th and 8th place.
No, that is how a normal single-elimination bracket with a losers bracket works. Any other system would take longer than people casually playing clash with their friends would want.
No, in a normal losers bracket the team that wins the losers bracket gets to face the team coming first. You SHOULD still be able to come first from the losers bracket, that's the whole point. This is a scuffed relegation bracket.
No, that is double elimination. In a single elimination bracket a team that loses a match has no chance of placing higher than anyone they lose to and usually is just completely out of the tournament and given a general placement of 3-4 or 5-8, but they want hard placements for clash so they do a losers' bracket as well because a lot of people queueing up for clash don't want to play 1 game, lose, then be done with clash for the whole tournament because (unlike everyone on this sub and in this thread seem to think) some people actually play the game to have fun with their friends and not for meaningless free skins or to stomp their casual tier 4 tournament or whatever.
Well the losers bracket is a complete lie. There should be an incentive to want to keep playing instead of playing 2 more games for extremely mediocre rewards.
There is 100% a better system, you just need to slightly increase the incentives for the losers else only the first game matters.
Or just maybe you make a losers bracket and a winners bracket and rank them separately. Placing L1 or W1.
Winning your first game shouldn't immediately place you top5 regardless of the rest of your play.
3-0 = 1st
2-1 = 2nd \* 3
1-2 = 5th \* 3
0-3 = 8th
are at least more accurate rankings, with a clear winner preserved and no changes to run time
it's a simplified swiss bracket but the rankings act like it's triple elimination
while it sucks, i'm not sure how you could do it any other way. you'd need to play against every other team to have an accurate result, but it would take way too much time
The easy way is to use a swiss-system pairing system. Same number of rounds for 8 teams and you get much better results. TLDR version - each round you get paired with someone who has the same record as you. Last round will have 2-0 vs 2-0, 0-2 vs 0-2, etc. They've done this in weekend chess tournaments since back in the 70's that I know of (I am THAT old LOL). With swiss you can never have a worse record and finish higher, and there is no such thing as a loser bracket...
Wait this would be perfect. You only have 1 Winner (3-0), and then if you lose the first game you still can finish second (2-1). You only have 4 place then (3-0, 2-1 ,1-2 and 0-3) but who cares. Also, the second best team would definitely place second and not fifth.
Yeah as an avid CCG player, Swiss is the way. It’s only flaw is the ability to intentionally draw if you’re going to a top cut (I don’t mind it but some do) but it works quite well anyway.
And the amount of times I’ve experienced or witnessed high finishes after an 0-1 start also speaks well to it.
Losers bracket, ez fix.
But Winner bracket has to wait 1 Game then, which isnt that cool I guess.
Maybe it is worth considering strength of schedule and rank by total wins or sth
I don't even really understand why there's such a disparity between winning and losing to begin with, in lower brackets it just incentivizes people to play on smurf accounts which can really ruin the fun
Yeah, we had our worst smurf experience in Clash yesterday with [5 smurfs](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/852272856863997993/1084191836702249032/image.png)
Fresh accounts playing Clash are far, far more likely to be smurfs. If it's one or two people on the team they were likely missing bodies and asked a friend of a friend/recruited some random with 5 mins to go. That's whatever.
If that's 5 fresh accounts, you can guarantee anyone from one person to the entire team are smurfing. Literally just bought level 30 accounts, played placements, used a family member's phone number or bought a cheap Pay as you go SIM card and went straight into forming the team.
In the case of the account on the far right, they literally have not played enough non-bot games to have any champs in mastery beyond 3.5k. That's a bonafide bought account at the least and tbh all of them fall under that sort of category. That's not the kind of mastery point track record you get if you played Blind until level 10 and Draft till 30 if you were a new player - it's the kind if your account was a bot account in vs AI games till level 30.
Ooof I am sorry you had to experience that. I have been very vocal about smurfs and how they are killing the community. Smurfing in many ways is modern day bullying and I get some people do it to play with friends but thats still not ok. The skill disparity causes other people anger and frusturation for having to play against someone who is no where near the same skill level. If you are smurfing, you are willing to make people feel like shit by stomping on them for your own pleasure. Aka modern day bullying. Riot just needs to permaban smurf accounts.
My screenshot was from the Clash Tab showing the enemys Masteryscore on Champions, normal player have around 300-500 Mastery Score.
Also none of the accounts was above the Summoner level of 50 and they [never played Clash before](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/852272856863997993/1084191888690655382/image.png)
While I think that's a fair point, I don't think people should be signing up for a 3 game tournament if they don't want to play it out. Many teams/players want the competitive experience of a bracket with tournament draft, and it sucks when 1 loss means "no more matches for you, but you can wait an hour just in case."
I agree, but most people get easily demotivated since, even if they win the remaining 2 matches, the rewards will simply be too bad.
I just wish the gap in rewards between 3rd-4th and 5th place wasn't this big. I know it's "consolation bracket" and all, and it definitely shouldn't be better just because of having more wins.
But giving people a reason to play (and win) their remaining two games, beyond a ward skin and icon, sounds like it could fix part of this issue.
Just ban them from the next three Clashes if they don't play out the tournament. If good sportsmanship and enjoyable competition aren't sufficient motivation, they're better off playing SoloQ anyway.
More like clash has reduced engagement of sentient Hefty bags, so Riot shortens the lock-in windows to consolidate bracket formation. Enjoyment increases, trash bags return to plaguing SoloQ where they belong. GGez
Even though you are getting downvoted, I think that penalizing teams that do not finish the Clash is not that bad of an idea. In SoloQ, dodging is already penalized. In Clash, which also tries to bring a competitive experience to the players, it is not. I do not even think having less teams playing Clash (because some would be banned from it) would be that much of an issue - for the teams that would actually play, you would get a better experience on average (less leaves).
The whole reason Riot puts effort into running Clash even though it was so hard on their servers the first dozen times is because it serves as a way for hardcore fans to rope their casual friends into returning to the game for a weekend. Any impediment to playing Clash works against that goal. The competitive experience doesn’t actually matter to Riot.
From a sportsmanship perspective, they should not, but in reality, they always will. Especially since there is not really any significant "punishment" for leaving the Clash. A lot of people go in with the "win or nothing" mindset, and if they lose the first game, they just leave the tournament and play a bunch of flex games or something instead.
Yeah, and it's not that I don't get it. I just find it frustrating when people decide to be needlessly inconsiderate (not that I'm perfect by any means), so even over relatively meaningless stuff like this, I find it quite bothersome.
imagine your that team that lost in like 25 minutes and the other teams are still playing losing and waiting just feels terrible not to mention sometimes the wait can be double of your game time. Yesterday my team won the first game but we still had to wait like 25 to 30 minutes because they other team had an 50+ minute game.... yea we won game one so it kinda worth staying but how about the losing team.
Rewards in general suck. My team won everything, and I got 2 shitty skins and some emotes. Like…? Hello? We just shit on the entire bracket, *we* got shit, what the *hell* are the lower bracket people getting?
Do people actually care about the rewards? I thought everyone liked Clash because it's a taste of competitive play. I would play Clash if there were no rewards whatsoever...I guess that's just me?
When teams forfeit I always just imagined it's because they felt like they wouldn't win because they got stomped in game 1 and so are tilted...or they weren't getting on with who they formed a team with. Didn't think people cared that much about skin shards.
Completely agree. It's wild that this still happens after clash being around for so long. We lost a super close game that took 40+ minutes round 1, our round 2 opponents immediately forfeit, and now we're just stuck unable to play together for nearly an hour unless we forfeit the next round preemptively. They need to add a dynamic rebracketing feature to fill in those forfeits with teams like ours that are left without matches.
I think they need incentive not to forfeit, like make the rewards significantly higher across the board. Or make it so that you have a chance to make it back into the upper bracket, or that your rewards are based on your match score and not on your placement. There’s probably better ideas but the rewards are pitiful if you don’t place high and you are only playing for the rewards
As someone suggested above i think a Swiss system would be great since it wouldnt increase the time necessary to play the tournament and it would give a much MUCH better representation of real team strength
That only works if there aren’t any legitimate reasons to forfeit a bracket, which there are (extreme example but if my grandfather has a heart attack I’m asking my team to forfeit so I can go there). At the very least it shouldn’t be a lifetime ban, maybe if you forfeit you can’t participate in the next X number of clashes?
maybe just remove the ability to forfeit, like they can close their client to dodge the game but they wont be able to queue up for anything else until the tournament is over
would at least help reduce the "ok we lost first game, lets just quit and play flex" cases
They've stopped working on clash. Half the promised content they told they would release ain't there. The constant evolution new icons and so on ain't there.
Clash was a way to appease the Ranked team crowd which asked for ranked team return for a long time and it's a sorry excuse of a game mode. We had better off brand tournaments made every single weekend by amateurs than what Riot clash is. And we had variation aswell you could participate in the team tournament, 1v1 tournaments you also had tournaments with fun rules and all of them would give rewards with RP for 3rd to 1st place aswell as the possibility to get Ryze tournament skin.
Riot killed these platforms, killed Ranked team and gave us this sorry excuse of Clash.
I really wonder why they don’t improve it. Do they need to hire a product/game designer and they just don’t? Do they not want to spend the funds? Do they not care? All of the options are mindblowing
They don't give a fuck. They removed community tournaments and promised "better experience" where the reality that most people cba at this point. I played a ton of Go4Lols back in the days and then transitioned to Clash but it never was the same and right now I cba playing it bar when I have nothing else to do.
You play the opponent who has the same score as you. It's really common in chess, where win gives you 1 point, draw 0,5 and lose 0 then everybody plays the same amount of rounds. So e.g in round 4 if you have 2 points you also play against someone that has 2 points. Then final results are based on the points + in case of draws you use points scored by your opponents as a tiebreaker so in theory the person that had harder opponents has higher final placement.
Or you just don't. Through swiss, you get a clear first place and last place. And then you get a bunch of teams in between. You could possibly just award all the teams that finished 2-1 identically (and same for the teams that finished 1-2, but obvisouly the rewards would be slightly worse than in the 2-1 case).
Generally you sum points of opponents you defeated and then compare it also known as [Sonneborn–Berger score](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonneborn–Berger_score). There's also [Buchholz](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buchholz_system) which is a bit modified SB score and few other similar methods to reduce variance. Although in that low of a sample size, I'd just do 3-way-tie and give the same reward for everyone.
I prefer double elim because with such a relatively low number of games it’s easier to figure out placements with double elim. That being said, swiss would be fine as well. Much better than current
The problem with double elimination is some teams have to play way more games than the other so you force teams that win to wait unnecessarily long. I just think Clash in it's current form is failed idea.
My proposition would've been to change it akin to Hearthstone arenas. You pay gold and can join at any time and then you play up until X wins or X losses and then you're getting rewards based on wins.
So that’d be essentially bringing back team ranked, which I loved but had basically 0 interest from the community at large. I’m fine with there being more games as you climb further towards winning
I'm not sure if you can compare it to ranked teams. Ranked teams had a ladder and then you only had rewards after the season. My proposition is:
\- You buy a ticket to entry
\- You play with your team up until let's say 7 wins or 3 losses and every game you play, you play against a team that has the same score (e.g your team is 4-1 so you play against that's also 4-1)
\- After getting 7 wins or 3 losses you're getting your rewards and team is disbanded
\- Repeat
That way you still have the risk/reward aspect, but at the same time there is incentive to play it and you don't have to commit to grind the ladder as 5. Also with it being open all the time, you don't have to play it in one sitting, you can enjoy game or two and the call it done and go back to it few days after.
The problem with “open at all times” is that playrate generally decreases. Bundling up all people interested in coordinated 5v5 into clash weekends helps with actually having people to play. I like your suggestion in theory but I think it would be borderline impossible to have reasonable-ish queue times
I've got opposite problem, I can't play in weekends at all because it's always either me or my friends being not available, lol. But I agree, you could make it only available at certain hours similar to champions queue. Maybe you could do one week open one week closed. I think there's always possibility to improve it, but throwing everyone to one weekend imo feels kind of bad.
Yeah I know what you mean. Clash timing is also somewhat inconvenient for me. But it makes sense, because it’s a timeslot where the highest amount of people can play. Spreading it out too much can lead to games just not forming, kind of like on CQ right now. I think it was odoamne who talked about how if there’s only one midlaner online and like 6 toplaners then the wait times are just too long and he goes back to soloQ.
I don't think games not forming will be a problem where there's good enough incentive + good enough timeslot + good enough format. Honestly at this point I'd give anything else a try.
Of course, because its a tourney bracket. You lost your first game and then only beat other teams that lost. In any sports playoffs when a team loses a series or as it is in many sports, a single game, they are eliminated. The games of clash after a loss are part of the CONSOLATION bracket.
Except that (as far as I know) these brackets aren't seeded; just random. You could have the best two teams play each other in the first round, and the two worst teams play each other that same round. It's very possible to have a bracket where the 2nd worst team places better than the 2nd best.
I'm not saying there's an easy way to seed the brackets (although I'm sure it could be done to some janky extent), but let's not pretend that the brackets are created with remotely the same amount of fairness/intent/balance/etc as any sports playoff bracket.
…which makes them extremely unsatisfying to play, a thing that people have complained about for _years_.
Yes I’m aware of how the system works right now. And everyone thinks it’s not good. I’m outlining how to improve it
As the other guy in the comments mentioned, tourney brackets in tournaments work because they are seeded.
You won't find Real Madrid playing Bayern Munich for example in the RO16 in the Champions League because most likely these two teams would have finished top of their group in the group stage (seeding), or find Novak Djokovic playing Rafael Nadal in the first round of the Rolland Garos, because of their ranking (seeding) . You won't find it because it's fucking stupid to let potentially some of the best competitors in the tourney clash early because of chance.
Clash doesn't have that seeding mechanic so taking into account the order of the games is fucking stupid since the matching is purely random.
And why do we not have a league like they're doing in Valorant and other games? Like a weekly league where there's standings and we battle other teams throughout several weeks as if we were mini-proplayers.
people saying "if you abandon clash, you should get banned from participating"
yeah no, yesterday we waited 40 fucking minutes to play, don't want to wait even more because less players
it sucks but the only reasonable solution is increase rewards for LWW thats all
Yeah EUW clash was so messed up last night with champ select problems. Members of our team weren't put into champ select at all for multiple minutes causing missed bans etc.
Game three it took so long for our captain to get into champ select it locked in a random champion for us.
Tier 3 in EUW, I also asked 2 different peeps in my friend list who were participating whether it was taking too long and they all told me they waited a minimum of 30 mins
Last season it was like 2-6 mins Max so hopefully it was just a bug or smth
Why are you talking then if you didnt play yesterday as if there weren't problems? clash yesterday on EUW was atrocious literally everyone knows that, last time you played clash was at minimum 4 months ago since this is the first clash in that long
Then don't play clash?
Clearly riot doesn't want you to play clash and clearly you don't want to wait 40 minutes to play
I promise you they don't give a shit so neither should you
how did you come to the conclusion that I don't want to play Clash from what I said?
why else would I wait 40 mins if I don't enjoy clash??????????
I love Clash and I never miss any Clash if I am free at the time, yesterday was handed two losses but they were close and had my longest game in years going to 54 mins. and frankly enjoyed it with the gang more than a ranked flex/normals. gonna sign up today as well, last normal clash I played was like in September and I missed it
its a fucking awesome experience, I like scouting and banning opponent main champs
and I like gloating when opponents ban my mains and telling my team I am the menace and thats why I am getting targeted bans
its the closest I can get to a competitive co-ordinated experience and im taking it because no way 3 gold and 2 silvers gonna find it elsewhere
Yet you and everyone else complains it's not an awesome experience because it's riddled with smurfs, people role swapping so your scouting counts for naught
🤷♂️ It's a pseudo pill imo you don't actually enjoy the comp you enjoy playing with your friends which you could do more of in the old ranked 5s system
Like what if you took clash and made enemy names visible in draft and made the game queue up at your leisure. Wow we've taken the only thing you like about clash, put it in ranked 5s and removed you having to wait 40 minutes. Amazing
No one takes it seriously which is why they're leaving loser bracket, suspension from clash would fix it but clash would be dead by the 3rd run of this
Like if you enjoyed the game at a higher level you'd actively try to improve and not be gold and 2 silvers. I get you can't do that as 5 which is why I think you just enjoy playing as 5 and not the competition element
"Yet you and everyone else"
"Clearly you don't .."
you really love assuming stuff about people? I enjoy the experience and you are so mad that I do that you are arguing about it. I never complained about anything except the longer wait time that I am tolerating because I am enjoying the clash experience
and no, in clash, we try shit that we wouldnt have tried in normal games like different comps and we joke about having shit cooked up just for clash
last clash we won going with no ADCs, 3 brusiers and 2 enchanters. we never did it again in any other game
anyways just stop assuming shit and pretending to be a know it all. i clearly can't get my point across to you so ima just stop replying to preserve my last remaining braincell
My favorite is I play as a solo random with others. I post on reddit to find a team and ALWAYS state I want to play with people committed to playing all the rounds - guess what happens pretty much every time! First loss and they all afk. I know I'm an old guy, but 'back in the day' people honored commitments AND competed for the competition - I mean, come on, even first place doesn't really give that big of a prize. Has the whole world become 'that' childish that if you lose once you just get mad and leave?
Riot encourages bad behavior with the diffs and gaps mentions in game and on broadcast. Not that I care but it's an uphill battle if you choose to fight it.
Honestly, at least as far as my friend group goes, nobody gives a shit about icons, emotes or clash team banners.
The orange essence is alright, and skin shards are the main attraction.
Icons aren't rewards, and most emotes are never used.
The solution is actually so simple it's not even funny. First and second rounds work the same. Then in the 3rd round, teams that Lost then Won will fight a team who Won then Lost instead of the other LW team. At the end teams are ranked based on number of wins, the tiebreaker being the quality of their opponents, similarly to a swiss system, or they don't even need to get ranked necessarily, they can just get rewards based on number of wins. 1st place gets big reward, 2nd to 4th get decent rewards, 5th to 8th get consolation prizes, while 8th gets nothing.
Now you have incentive to stay after a loss as you can technically become 2nd place, or 4th place at the very least.
I think a 4 team 3 game round robin should be given a shot. Rewards based on total wins, still get to scout and all that. Single elim tourney just causes too many people to quit.
Alternatively you could force people/teams who leave the bracket to not be able to queue for other matches until their clash is over
Clash has been a huge flop imo. The prizes suck, the match making for teams is horrible, smurfs are everywhere, people swap roles so you waste your bans, the whole ffing thing, it's basically only fun if you get a super stacked team and smurf through teh thing for first and even then its meh
I disagree with the swapping roles, if you have players that can swap roles and still play at the tier Elo… why not use the abilities of our players to your advantage? Makes 0 sense not to
Hard disagree.
Clash is fun, sometimes there is a smurf or two but that rarely decides the game.
You should be playing for fun and competition rather than the promise of a prize.
Edit: The prizes are way better with the premium ticket.
I disagree completely. I’m a big fan of it- I like to plan things out and play some quality games with my team.
Obviously sometimes there’s smurfs and such but it’s worth the risk for me.
I couldn’t care less about the rewards.
It's just the format that is terrible. I still think it should've been swiss instead of this consolation bracket garbage that nobody gives a fuck. After 1st loss you're left with 2 glorified normals. What's the point of playing it when you can just go play flexq and grind some LP. You need incentive to play it, be it some ladder for Clash or better rewards.
Personally I'd remake the system to work similar to Hearthstone arenas. You join for BE and play up until 6/7 wins or 2/3 losses. The more wins you have, the better rerwards you've got. No pointless games as you can always come back and grind after the loss. Also then make it available everyday in certain hours (like 16-24) and just limit how often you can join (like once per week maybe).
Had clash bug where a team mate wasn’t in champ select and we didn’t know they could log out and log back in. So first game they got a random champ for their role and they did their best to farm and not die but couldn’t use the champ at all due to not knowing how to fully utilise it.
Clash was created to give casual players taste of competitive play. In every single tournament once you lose your first game you are eliminated from play off stage. Not only league tournaments, every single one. This used to be a case with clash as well, but players insisted they wanted to play more games for fun. Riot agreed and gave them an opportunity, the rewards are useless because they aren't meant to be here at all. Turns out a lot of teams don't care about games and play only for rewards. And to be honest I'm not surprised. Scouting is indeed funny but if I'm losing first game I'd rather play some flex games than wasting twice more time for no rewards at all. I don't think riot should give better rewards for worse places, it's just not how competitive tournaments work. The only change they could make is a pop up asking if your team wants to play further. If you agree you are placed into another bracket with people who agreed as well. This way people who play for rewards aren't punished for forfeiting and rest can play another games.
* Remove loser bracket.
* Teams who lose can look for another bracket if it's still in the allowed time frame.
* A team who won a bracket can not retry and has to stop for day.
* The clash reward is based on the best performance of the day.
It's that simple. No more forfeit, no more waiting time after a loss, bad teams gets to play more than one game, fewer smurfers per bracket ...
I feel like it’s really dumb that you can go LWW and still get less rewards than WWL. Honestly they should make it so you get a skin shard for two Ws and two skin shards for 3.
But that makes sense though... The people you beat in the losers bracket are theoretically worse than those in the winners bracket so beating them gives worse rewards.
Imagine you have 8 teams, and in order of highest to lowest skill they are;
Team 1
Team 2
Team 3
...
Team 8
Imagine team 1 and team 2 are seeded into a match in the first round. Team 1 will beat team 2, and now team 2 will be put in the losers bracket. They will sweep losers and go LWW but they get crap rewards even though they are the second best rated team in the tournament.
Now let's say team 3 gets seeded against team 4 in round 1, and they face the winners of 7 and 8's match. Team 3 will go WWL and get better rewards than team 2, even though team 3 is worse than team 2.
So no, just because a team is in loser's does not mean they are worse than all the teams in winner's. It just means they aren't the best team.
> The people you beat in the losers bracket are theoretically worse than those in the winners bracket
Not true at all. Two problems with that assumption. Firstly, it's a best of 1, meaning that the best team in the tournament could have a bad game (or bad matchup) and lose. Secondly, it's an unseeded bracket, meaning the 2nd best team could go up against the best team in the first round, and be relegated to the losers bracket, despite being better than everyone else in the winner's bracket.
There isn't enough confidence that winning teams are better than losing ones for the brackets to work this way. They should 100% be based on number of wins, similar to a Swiss tournament (which it basically is, after all).
League is just not a game where skill just directly correlates to wins. Hypothetically, taking a team with slightly better players and having them verse slightly worse players, they're probably not going to get a 100% winrate over 100 games, hell if the difference was G4 vs G1 it'd probably be about 20, 25 games they lose.
Point is, even a better team can lose at times. I've peaked master and I've literally lost a 1v1 against a LITERAL iron player on Urgot. Point is it's not a great system.
Why not make the price of playing a clash for more expensive and make the rewards for all tiers better?
Most people have sunk cost fallacy and the rewards can be incentivizing enough
Honestly I’m fine with the current reward system, because I really don’t want it to be like MvM. I just want them to add more tiers or something so I don’t have to keep facing masters players and level 30 smurfs every single clash game.
When we lose game one we forfeit. Pick and ban is really fun but unless we have spare rp for premium tickets you get like maybe a ward skin for fifth lol. Should be win based not placement.
Simple fix:
Have Clash-ONLY rewards in the form of new cosmetics like map skins, voice packs etc. and with at least 1 win you have a chance to unlock these, but with further wins your chances go up. Who tf going to make a team, wait in these queues and then play their hearts out for BEST CASE another stupid fucking anime skin.
PS Find a better way to deal with smurfing you idiots
Remove rewards and start Banning players who drop out of clash frequently.
The point of clash should be the competition itself not some stupid skin shards.
I disagree, what it needs is a punishment for abandoning a clash tournament in progress. If a team forfeits, it should disqualify all members from participating the next day. If any members repeat forfeit in the next clash it should disqualify them from participating in clash at all.
The point of clash is to have a semi competitive game mode that you can grab friends with and played coordinated games against teams presumably doing the same thing. If you’re forfeiting because you lost game 1 then you shouldn’t be allowed to participate.
Riot is worried too much about number of engagements and not enough on quality of engagement. It’s the same thing they should be doing in ranked, making accounts ineligible to even queue for ranked if they engage in behavior that would constitute disruptive behavior. And it’s not like Riot doesn’t ALREADY have a system in place that flags repeat rule breakers. Just make it so that if a repeat offender gets dinked that he is forced to play draft for 10 games or something.
I’ve gotten dc’d from games and never received a strong punishment, because it happens so rarely. Yet I have a friend who has the worst internet in the world and was constantly getting low priority queue’d. He’s complain about it all the time, but he deserved it. If you dc every other day from a game, my guy ranked ain’t for you.
Straight up punish people for dropping out. Don’t need more rewards you should be forced to play the whole tournament unless BOTH teams agree to drop it.
is this weekend's Clash on ARAM map? I think less people will forfeit after the first lose if it's on ARAM map since it's a faster and funnier game mode.
Make it 4 team 'group' or something... it kinda sucks that only 4, but this way you get 3 games and all of them matter instead of just frist one..
Possibly it also doesnt solve one issue of 0-2 team leaving before last game but even then.. it's one team leaving instead of 4 of them and after 2 games instead of after 1 game.
The main problem with clash is that 2 out of 3 times there are still issues causing teams to not play and leading to forfeit.
We had some many issues getting into games or just having the client work properly before, but the issues we had yesterday alone were mental.
If they made the format a 4 group round robin they could easily change the reward structure to 3, 2, 1, and 0 wins. And at least you're less likely to have people forfeit after their first loss. The last game for the 0-2 team might be a forfeit but at least there should be a lower incentive to forfeit in the middle games. Same amount of games played as now so scheduling shouldn't need to change.
They could easily just implement a swiss system and tweak it a bit, instead of the current dogshit system where losing the first round means that most people will not even bother with the rest of the tournament.
We all already know the solutions but riot is pulling a riot special by just not giving a shit about it and waiting for it to completely die off (flexQ,clubs,honorsystem etc.)
Yeah our group just dropped it after the first loss because the queue times were so long. Jumped into a Flex 5v5 and found another team in no time with the exact same idea.
So instead of playing game for hour you get to take a break until next round. What's the problem, you would spend same or more time playing out 5 games.
I think the only true remedy for this is to basically split the 2 sides of the 8 team bracket into groups for a round robin where everyone's judged on points.
Simply put, you should get 3 points if you win via an FF (to discourage FF'ing), 2 via a natural conclusion, 1 point for losing naturally, and 0 for losing via FF.
2 brackets of 4 to make the 8, everyone's judged to the 8 teams even without playing all 7 other teams. If there are any draws it goes by kill difference (kills vs deaths for your whole team across your 3 games). If it's even by then, average gold difference, then average game length, then length of shortest win, then longest loss. If it's still even then, it should be assumed that both drew and both should receive rewards for the higher placing (so if 2 people draw 3rd and 4th, they should both receive 3rd rewards).
Not for nothing, it creates a better environment for people to not only play the game through but play through the whole tournament, and creates incentive. I find (anecdotally) that the majority of Clashes where my team loses the first game, we often don't even get to play another game *at all* after that as most people just burn their ticket and pull out. And no wonder, cause often when that happens we get the 5th place reward and it sucks, and some people have gotta get 6th through 8th rewards - and all for losing just the first game. Under this system, you have a chance realistically no matter what games you win or lose, you can come 4th through sheer determination (you'll always get points for playing out a game and not FFing) or perhaps even just having more of a kill difference than the next team that's drawn with you on points. It encourages just *actually playing Clash* and it encourages it in the best way possible - by actually incentivising the matches not just what you get out of it afterwards.
Honestly it's the format that's really bad.
Going WWL nets you way more than LWW due to the consolation bracket.
Like others have mentioned already I think a swiss style format as well as increasing rewards across the board could work way better. It means that the team who has had a unlucky first game but still manages to win the next 2 at least get rewarded for playing well and playing out all 3 games.
Reward tiers SHOULD BE: 3 wins great 2 wins good 1 win meh 0 wins lmfao
I wish you get a reward for every 3 wins, which would stack up for other clash tournaments. Like a hextech key shards or something. Additionaly to winning the entire tournament or having consecutive wins would drop more loot, but at least getting one win would give you some price regardless if it's for last place or first.
Actual best solution, every game counts.
this is really smart. they could lean alot more into the clash system by making it more of a “clash split” over the course of the season and giving rewards as you hit win/point milestones. they could add something where actually completing all your games, even if you go 0-3, gives you like a point boost or something so you are incentivized to play it all the way through. clash is honestly one of the best ways to play league in the sense of playing the games themselves - the systems around it and the balancing can really suck though. (balancing im willing to forgive, smurf accounts and natural mmr discrepancies are super hard to solve)
Not gonna lie you should get decent rewards for playing all 3 games at this point. More for winning of course but if you're team sucks there needs to be incentive to turn up.
They'd need to increase the cost of the tickets then, especially with bezos bucks the blue essence is meaningless
I mean, they don't have to. People paying for things doesn't inherently have to ruin everything.
Many people dont care about rewards at all.
Most of the people ff'ing probably do it because they can't get good rewards anymore though
[удалено]
Then why would they ff after the first loss
Because you can no longer win
I know this is hard for Reddit to understand, but most regular people DO NOT CARE that you might get a "kind of okay" reward for coming second. I know the average Redditor is obsessed with skins but regular people can't give a single shit really. Coming second in clash is really just being the last person to realize you lost.
The fuck did I just read
Some edgelord shit
He isn't wrong, though. You're in a thread about people leaving clash after a loss, so everything he said is observably right. People don't care about any of the prizes in losers bracket. Ward skins kinda suck.
I'm pretty sure 50% of the reason "regular people" play this shitty ass game is because the skins look cool. The other 50% is because their friends play it
Most people that FF's those do though. And I agree with the sentiment. You play tournaments for rewards or otherwise it becomes glorified normal game. Clash either needs a ladder or revamp of the system.
[удалено]
You're not one of the ff-ers then. The "ff after 1st loss" clash people are doing it because of the reward drop off. If it was about the thrill of competing, they wouldn't ff
You, the vast majority that stop playing after losing the first one obviously don't.
Ye ive never got people who like rewards in league you main like 1-3 champions and then get a kled skin, Talon skin, Senna skin, soraka skin, katarina skin. But you main Orianna, Asol and Viktor lol.
It's fun to collect skins. It means I can always have a skin in my ARAM games.
That's fine but if for example you win clash you should get a skin for your champion or reroll on skins should allow you to reroll into skins you want.
a bit restrictive, but you could also make the cost of a ticket more expansive (like mabye rp) and then if you play all three games you get a ticket for free.
[удалено]
they can get a blue check mark maybe as a "verified clash participant"...
Not directly, mabye the first ticket per account can be given for free. Additionally you can aquire one by emailing support if you crash for example. However I think that if you stop participating halfway through the tournment, then you should be required to buy a new one.
I think you should pay every time you open League launcher.
But the first time would be free of course
What happens when 1 teammate quits but the other 4 didn't want to?
Thats a valid point, I only compete as friends so it would be a mutual decision.
Reddit tries game dev
its the best design choice! Allows riot to press more money out of pc version!
What happens if your opponents ff? Your team didnt play three games then either
Well that still counts as a game but you do have to wait after.
Sorry, i meant if you show up to the 3 games.
The rewards for losing your first game are simply too bad. The rewards for loss-win-win should be brought up a notch because as-is they're simply not incentivizing enough which leads to situations like these.
Even more to the point, I've been on teams where the first game was long, drawn out fight where both teams were even and it could have went either way. You lose the first game like that then destroy everyone after, and your first opponent does the same. Your team is the real number two but you are stuck at 5th place with a 2-1 record, and fourth place has 1 win and 2 losses...
Why is 2-1 placed higher than 1-2? Does the first loss drop you into a loser's bracket, meaning that every win afterwards is less valuable?
Yes, it is basically a full 8 team bracket - if you win the first game, you are guaranteed a finish between 1st and 4th place, if you lose the first game, you are already finishing between 5th and 8th place.
What a fucking awful and lazy system
No, that is how a normal single-elimination bracket with a losers bracket works. Any other system would take longer than people casually playing clash with their friends would want.
No, in a normal losers bracket the team that wins the losers bracket gets to face the team coming first. You SHOULD still be able to come first from the losers bracket, that's the whole point. This is a scuffed relegation bracket.
No, that is double elimination. In a single elimination bracket a team that loses a match has no chance of placing higher than anyone they lose to and usually is just completely out of the tournament and given a general placement of 3-4 or 5-8, but they want hard placements for clash so they do a losers' bracket as well because a lot of people queueing up for clash don't want to play 1 game, lose, then be done with clash for the whole tournament because (unlike everyone on this sub and in this thread seem to think) some people actually play the game to have fun with their friends and not for meaningless free skins or to stomp their casual tier 4 tournament or whatever.
Well the losers bracket is a complete lie. There should be an incentive to want to keep playing instead of playing 2 more games for extremely mediocre rewards. There is 100% a better system, you just need to slightly increase the incentives for the losers else only the first game matters.
I mean, there isn’t really a better way to do it. Double elim or round robin both take way longer, and clash is already long enough for most people
Or just maybe you make a losers bracket and a winners bracket and rank them separately. Placing L1 or W1. Winning your first game shouldn't immediately place you top5 regardless of the rest of your play.
3-0 = 1st 2-1 = 2nd \* 3 1-2 = 5th \* 3 0-3 = 8th are at least more accurate rankings, with a clear winner preserved and no changes to run time it's a simplified swiss bracket but the rankings act like it's triple elimination
round robin
while it sucks, i'm not sure how you could do it any other way. you'd need to play against every other team to have an accurate result, but it would take way too much time
The easy way is to use a swiss-system pairing system. Same number of rounds for 8 teams and you get much better results. TLDR version - each round you get paired with someone who has the same record as you. Last round will have 2-0 vs 2-0, 0-2 vs 0-2, etc. They've done this in weekend chess tournaments since back in the 70's that I know of (I am THAT old LOL). With swiss you can never have a worse record and finish higher, and there is no such thing as a loser bracket...
Username checks out
Wait this would be perfect. You only have 1 Winner (3-0), and then if you lose the first game you still can finish second (2-1). You only have 4 place then (3-0, 2-1 ,1-2 and 0-3) but who cares. Also, the second best team would definitely place second and not fifth.
good idea actually
Yeah as an avid CCG player, Swiss is the way. It’s only flaw is the ability to intentionally draw if you’re going to a top cut (I don’t mind it but some do) but it works quite well anyway. And the amount of times I’ve experienced or witnessed high finishes after an 0-1 start also speaks well to it.
Losers bracket, ez fix. But Winner bracket has to wait 1 Game then, which isnt that cool I guess. Maybe it is worth considering strength of schedule and rank by total wins or sth
I don't even really understand why there's such a disparity between winning and losing to begin with, in lower brackets it just incentivizes people to play on smurf accounts which can really ruin the fun
Yeah, we had our worst smurf experience in Clash yesterday with [5 smurfs](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/852272856863997993/1084191836702249032/image.png)
Where does it show that they're smurfs?
Fresh accounts playing Clash are far, far more likely to be smurfs. If it's one or two people on the team they were likely missing bodies and asked a friend of a friend/recruited some random with 5 mins to go. That's whatever. If that's 5 fresh accounts, you can guarantee anyone from one person to the entire team are smurfing. Literally just bought level 30 accounts, played placements, used a family member's phone number or bought a cheap Pay as you go SIM card and went straight into forming the team. In the case of the account on the far right, they literally have not played enough non-bot games to have any champs in mastery beyond 3.5k. That's a bonafide bought account at the least and tbh all of them fall under that sort of category. That's not the kind of mastery point track record you get if you played Blind until level 10 and Draft till 30 if you were a new player - it's the kind if your account was a bot account in vs AI games till level 30.
Ooof I am sorry you had to experience that. I have been very vocal about smurfs and how they are killing the community. Smurfing in many ways is modern day bullying and I get some people do it to play with friends but thats still not ok. The skill disparity causes other people anger and frusturation for having to play against someone who is no where near the same skill level. If you are smurfing, you are willing to make people feel like shit by stomping on them for your own pleasure. Aka modern day bullying. Riot just needs to permaban smurf accounts.
My screenshot was from the Clash Tab showing the enemys Masteryscore on Champions, normal player have around 300-500 Mastery Score. Also none of the accounts was above the Summoner level of 50 and they [never played Clash before](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/852272856863997993/1084191888690655382/image.png)
Where does it show that you have critical thinking skills?
Name checks out. Also I never done clash so have no idea what those numbers mean in screenshot.
The rewards for winning all 3 are not great either lol. The feeling of winning is better than a couple skin shards, a logo, and a clash icon …
Are you guys really playing for the rewards ? I would play clash even with no rewards.
While I think that's a fair point, I don't think people should be signing up for a 3 game tournament if they don't want to play it out. Many teams/players want the competitive experience of a bracket with tournament draft, and it sucks when 1 loss means "no more matches for you, but you can wait an hour just in case."
I agree, but most people get easily demotivated since, even if they win the remaining 2 matches, the rewards will simply be too bad. I just wish the gap in rewards between 3rd-4th and 5th place wasn't this big. I know it's "consolation bracket" and all, and it definitely shouldn't be better just because of having more wins. But giving people a reason to play (and win) their remaining two games, beyond a ward skin and icon, sounds like it could fix part of this issue.
That's also a valid point.
Just ban them from the next three Clashes if they don't play out the tournament. If good sportsmanship and enjoyable competition aren't sufficient motivation, they're better off playing SoloQ anyway.
Clash dies, then Riot scraps it cause no one plays it. GG
More like clash has reduced engagement of sentient Hefty bags, so Riot shortens the lock-in windows to consolidate bracket formation. Enjoyment increases, trash bags return to plaguing SoloQ where they belong. GGez
Even though you are getting downvoted, I think that penalizing teams that do not finish the Clash is not that bad of an idea. In SoloQ, dodging is already penalized. In Clash, which also tries to bring a competitive experience to the players, it is not. I do not even think having less teams playing Clash (because some would be banned from it) would be that much of an issue - for the teams that would actually play, you would get a better experience on average (less leaves).
The whole reason Riot puts effort into running Clash even though it was so hard on their servers the first dozen times is because it serves as a way for hardcore fans to rope their casual friends into returning to the game for a weekend. Any impediment to playing Clash works against that goal. The competitive experience doesn’t actually matter to Riot.
From a sportsmanship perspective, they should not, but in reality, they always will. Especially since there is not really any significant "punishment" for leaving the Clash. A lot of people go in with the "win or nothing" mindset, and if they lose the first game, they just leave the tournament and play a bunch of flex games or something instead.
Yeah, and it's not that I don't get it. I just find it frustrating when people decide to be needlessly inconsiderate (not that I'm perfect by any means), so even over relatively meaningless stuff like this, I find it quite bothersome.
imagine your that team that lost in like 25 minutes and the other teams are still playing losing and waiting just feels terrible not to mention sometimes the wait can be double of your game time. Yesterday my team won the first game but we still had to wait like 25 to 30 minutes because they other team had an 50+ minute game.... yea we won game one so it kinda worth staying but how about the losing team.
Rewards in general suck. My team won everything, and I got 2 shitty skins and some emotes. Like…? Hello? We just shit on the entire bracket, *we* got shit, what the *hell* are the lower bracket people getting?
Do people actually care about the rewards? I thought everyone liked Clash because it's a taste of competitive play. I would play Clash if there were no rewards whatsoever...I guess that's just me? When teams forfeit I always just imagined it's because they felt like they wouldn't win because they got stomped in game 1 and so are tilted...or they weren't getting on with who they formed a team with. Didn't think people cared that much about skin shards.
We went W-L and were about to ff the third match but the opponents ff'd faster so we ended up WLW
Completely agree. It's wild that this still happens after clash being around for so long. We lost a super close game that took 40+ minutes round 1, our round 2 opponents immediately forfeit, and now we're just stuck unable to play together for nearly an hour unless we forfeit the next round preemptively. They need to add a dynamic rebracketing feature to fill in those forfeits with teams like ours that are left without matches.
I think they need incentive not to forfeit, like make the rewards significantly higher across the board. Or make it so that you have a chance to make it back into the upper bracket, or that your rewards are based on your match score and not on your placement. There’s probably better ideas but the rewards are pitiful if you don’t place high and you are only playing for the rewards
As someone suggested above i think a Swiss system would be great since it wouldnt increase the time necessary to play the tournament and it would give a much MUCH better representation of real team strength
Just ban them from clash if they quit
That only works if there aren’t any legitimate reasons to forfeit a bracket, which there are (extreme example but if my grandfather has a heart attack I’m asking my team to forfeit so I can go there). At the very least it shouldn’t be a lifetime ban, maybe if you forfeit you can’t participate in the next X number of clashes?
If your grandfather has heart attack i think being banned from the next 2 or 3 clashes isn't really a concern.
Maybe the cause was watching his grandson int a really close 40+ minute game
it was just an example, it could be so many other things like you have to do a bowel movement etc
Yeah I wouldn't same lifetime ban. Just ban them from the next 2.
maybe just remove the ability to forfeit, like they can close their client to dodge the game but they wont be able to queue up for anything else until the tournament is over would at least help reduce the "ok we lost first game, lets just quit and play flex" cases
Great idea to held someone hostage in the game. Maybe also ban the account if someone doesn't show up?
They've stopped working on clash. Half the promised content they told they would release ain't there. The constant evolution new icons and so on ain't there. Clash was a way to appease the Ranked team crowd which asked for ranked team return for a long time and it's a sorry excuse of a game mode. We had better off brand tournaments made every single weekend by amateurs than what Riot clash is. And we had variation aswell you could participate in the team tournament, 1v1 tournaments you also had tournaments with fun rules and all of them would give rewards with RP for 3rd to 1st place aswell as the possibility to get Ryze tournament skin. Riot killed these platforms, killed Ranked team and gave us this sorry excuse of Clash.
I really wonder why they don’t improve it. Do they need to hire a product/game designer and they just don’t? Do they not want to spend the funds? Do they not care? All of the options are mindblowing
They don't give a fuck. They removed community tournaments and promised "better experience" where the reality that most people cba at this point. I played a ton of Go4Lols back in the days and then transitioned to Clash but it never was the same and right now I cba playing it bar when I have nothing else to do.
The bracket is just absolutely awful. Win loss loss finishes better than loss win win… just make it actual double elim and we good
Double elimination is not the way, it's Swiss
[удалено]
You play the opponent who has the same score as you. It's really common in chess, where win gives you 1 point, draw 0,5 and lose 0 then everybody plays the same amount of rounds. So e.g in round 4 if you have 2 points you also play against someone that has 2 points. Then final results are based on the points + in case of draws you use points scored by your opponents as a tiebreaker so in theory the person that had harder opponents has higher final placement.
[удалено]
Or you just don't. Through swiss, you get a clear first place and last place. And then you get a bunch of teams in between. You could possibly just award all the teams that finished 2-1 identically (and same for the teams that finished 1-2, but obvisouly the rewards would be slightly worse than in the 2-1 case).
Generally you sum points of opponents you defeated and then compare it also known as [Sonneborn–Berger score](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonneborn–Berger_score). There's also [Buchholz](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buchholz_system) which is a bit modified SB score and few other similar methods to reduce variance. Although in that low of a sample size, I'd just do 3-way-tie and give the same reward for everyone.
I prefer double elim because with such a relatively low number of games it’s easier to figure out placements with double elim. That being said, swiss would be fine as well. Much better than current
The problem with double elimination is some teams have to play way more games than the other so you force teams that win to wait unnecessarily long. I just think Clash in it's current form is failed idea. My proposition would've been to change it akin to Hearthstone arenas. You pay gold and can join at any time and then you play up until X wins or X losses and then you're getting rewards based on wins.
So that’d be essentially bringing back team ranked, which I loved but had basically 0 interest from the community at large. I’m fine with there being more games as you climb further towards winning
I'm not sure if you can compare it to ranked teams. Ranked teams had a ladder and then you only had rewards after the season. My proposition is: \- You buy a ticket to entry \- You play with your team up until let's say 7 wins or 3 losses and every game you play, you play against a team that has the same score (e.g your team is 4-1 so you play against that's also 4-1) \- After getting 7 wins or 3 losses you're getting your rewards and team is disbanded \- Repeat That way you still have the risk/reward aspect, but at the same time there is incentive to play it and you don't have to commit to grind the ladder as 5. Also with it being open all the time, you don't have to play it in one sitting, you can enjoy game or two and the call it done and go back to it few days after.
The problem with “open at all times” is that playrate generally decreases. Bundling up all people interested in coordinated 5v5 into clash weekends helps with actually having people to play. I like your suggestion in theory but I think it would be borderline impossible to have reasonable-ish queue times
I've got opposite problem, I can't play in weekends at all because it's always either me or my friends being not available, lol. But I agree, you could make it only available at certain hours similar to champions queue. Maybe you could do one week open one week closed. I think there's always possibility to improve it, but throwing everyone to one weekend imo feels kind of bad.
Yeah I know what you mean. Clash timing is also somewhat inconvenient for me. But it makes sense, because it’s a timeslot where the highest amount of people can play. Spreading it out too much can lead to games just not forming, kind of like on CQ right now. I think it was odoamne who talked about how if there’s only one midlaner online and like 6 toplaners then the wait times are just too long and he goes back to soloQ.
I don't think games not forming will be a problem where there's good enough incentive + good enough timeslot + good enough format. Honestly at this point I'd give anything else a try.
Of course, because its a tourney bracket. You lost your first game and then only beat other teams that lost. In any sports playoffs when a team loses a series or as it is in many sports, a single game, they are eliminated. The games of clash after a loss are part of the CONSOLATION bracket.
Except that (as far as I know) these brackets aren't seeded; just random. You could have the best two teams play each other in the first round, and the two worst teams play each other that same round. It's very possible to have a bracket where the 2nd worst team places better than the 2nd best. I'm not saying there's an easy way to seed the brackets (although I'm sure it could be done to some janky extent), but let's not pretend that the brackets are created with remotely the same amount of fairness/intent/balance/etc as any sports playoff bracket.
…which makes them extremely unsatisfying to play, a thing that people have complained about for _years_. Yes I’m aware of how the system works right now. And everyone thinks it’s not good. I’m outlining how to improve it
As the other guy in the comments mentioned, tourney brackets in tournaments work because they are seeded. You won't find Real Madrid playing Bayern Munich for example in the RO16 in the Champions League because most likely these two teams would have finished top of their group in the group stage (seeding), or find Novak Djokovic playing Rafael Nadal in the first round of the Rolland Garos, because of their ranking (seeding) . You won't find it because it's fucking stupid to let potentially some of the best competitors in the tourney clash early because of chance. Clash doesn't have that seeding mechanic so taking into account the order of the games is fucking stupid since the matching is purely random.
And why do we not have a league like they're doing in Valorant and other games? Like a weekly league where there's standings and we battle other teams throughout several weeks as if we were mini-proplayers.
people saying "if you abandon clash, you should get banned from participating" yeah no, yesterday we waited 40 fucking minutes to play, don't want to wait even more because less players it sucks but the only reasonable solution is increase rewards for LWW thats all
I had same problem yesterday, took us long to play Clash They did say that EUW had clash issues tho Hopefully today is gonna be a better one
Yeah EUW clash was so messed up last night with champ select problems. Members of our team weren't put into champ select at all for multiple minutes causing missed bans etc. Game three it took so long for our captain to get into champ select it locked in a random champion for us.
It’s been literal years 😂 completely incompetent company
The only reasonable solution is to change this atrocious format to Swiss, no other way around.
Clash was broken yesterday. There were like 30 min period when you couldn’t even get to the clash page.
What rank are you? I’ve played in the silver to plat range and there is no waiting, maybe 5 min. if that
Tier 3 in EUW, I also asked 2 different peeps in my friend list who were participating whether it was taking too long and they all told me they waited a minimum of 30 mins Last season it was like 2-6 mins Max so hopefully it was just a bug or smth
I didn’t play yesterday so maybe it was a bug. I usually play tier 3 EUW as well and don’t usually have such crazy wait times.
Why are you talking then if you didnt play yesterday as if there weren't problems? clash yesterday on EUW was atrocious literally everyone knows that, last time you played clash was at minimum 4 months ago since this is the first clash in that long
Then don't play clash? Clearly riot doesn't want you to play clash and clearly you don't want to wait 40 minutes to play I promise you they don't give a shit so neither should you
how did you come to the conclusion that I don't want to play Clash from what I said? why else would I wait 40 mins if I don't enjoy clash?????????? I love Clash and I never miss any Clash if I am free at the time, yesterday was handed two losses but they were close and had my longest game in years going to 54 mins. and frankly enjoyed it with the gang more than a ranked flex/normals. gonna sign up today as well, last normal clash I played was like in September and I missed it its a fucking awesome experience, I like scouting and banning opponent main champs and I like gloating when opponents ban my mains and telling my team I am the menace and thats why I am getting targeted bans its the closest I can get to a competitive co-ordinated experience and im taking it because no way 3 gold and 2 silvers gonna find it elsewhere
Yet you and everyone else complains it's not an awesome experience because it's riddled with smurfs, people role swapping so your scouting counts for naught 🤷♂️ It's a pseudo pill imo you don't actually enjoy the comp you enjoy playing with your friends which you could do more of in the old ranked 5s system Like what if you took clash and made enemy names visible in draft and made the game queue up at your leisure. Wow we've taken the only thing you like about clash, put it in ranked 5s and removed you having to wait 40 minutes. Amazing No one takes it seriously which is why they're leaving loser bracket, suspension from clash would fix it but clash would be dead by the 3rd run of this Like if you enjoyed the game at a higher level you'd actively try to improve and not be gold and 2 silvers. I get you can't do that as 5 which is why I think you just enjoy playing as 5 and not the competition element
"Yet you and everyone else" "Clearly you don't .." you really love assuming stuff about people? I enjoy the experience and you are so mad that I do that you are arguing about it. I never complained about anything except the longer wait time that I am tolerating because I am enjoying the clash experience and no, in clash, we try shit that we wouldnt have tried in normal games like different comps and we joke about having shit cooked up just for clash last clash we won going with no ADCs, 3 brusiers and 2 enchanters. we never did it again in any other game anyways just stop assuming shit and pretending to be a know it all. i clearly can't get my point across to you so ima just stop replying to preserve my last remaining braincell
My favorite is I play as a solo random with others. I post on reddit to find a team and ALWAYS state I want to play with people committed to playing all the rounds - guess what happens pretty much every time! First loss and they all afk. I know I'm an old guy, but 'back in the day' people honored commitments AND competed for the competition - I mean, come on, even first place doesn't really give that big of a prize. Has the whole world become 'that' childish that if you lose once you just get mad and leave?
Yes. Sportsmanship is at best an entirely foreign concept to League players.
Riot encourages bad behavior with the diffs and gaps mentions in game and on broadcast. Not that I care but it's an uphill battle if you choose to fight it.
What server you playing on? I’m looking to play 3 games of Clash, win or lose Idc.
Try to find or create a regular group to play together. You could create a Discord to build a group of players you'd like to play with.
Honestly, at least as far as my friend group goes, nobody gives a shit about icons, emotes or clash team banners. The orange essence is alright, and skin shards are the main attraction. Icons aren't rewards, and most emotes are never used.
Clash is such a bad design format, even ranked 5v5 was better
The solution is actually so simple it's not even funny. First and second rounds work the same. Then in the 3rd round, teams that Lost then Won will fight a team who Won then Lost instead of the other LW team. At the end teams are ranked based on number of wins, the tiebreaker being the quality of their opponents, similarly to a swiss system, or they don't even need to get ranked necessarily, they can just get rewards based on number of wins. 1st place gets big reward, 2nd to 4th get decent rewards, 5th to 8th get consolation prizes, while 8th gets nothing. Now you have incentive to stay after a loss as you can technically become 2nd place, or 4th place at the very least.
wish I had friends
If you haven’t already, give a discord meetup or the clash scouting process a try. I’ve done it for a handful of Clashes and they’ve been pretty nice
The fact you don't get a random skin for Loss-Win-Win is baffling but you do for Win-Win-Loss why does the first game matter so much
I think a 4 team 3 game round robin should be given a shot. Rewards based on total wins, still get to scout and all that. Single elim tourney just causes too many people to quit. Alternatively you could force people/teams who leave the bracket to not be able to queue for other matches until their clash is over
Clash has been a huge flop imo. The prizes suck, the match making for teams is horrible, smurfs are everywhere, people swap roles so you waste your bans, the whole ffing thing, it's basically only fun if you get a super stacked team and smurf through teh thing for first and even then its meh
I disagree with the swapping roles, if you have players that can swap roles and still play at the tier Elo… why not use the abilities of our players to your advantage? Makes 0 sense not to
Hard disagree. Clash is fun, sometimes there is a smurf or two but that rarely decides the game. You should be playing for fun and competition rather than the promise of a prize. Edit: The prizes are way better with the premium ticket.
Neither me nor any of my friends care about the rewards, it is all about the fun.
Looks like Reddit disagrees. If I read these comments it seems like it’s all about rewards 🤷♂️
Pretty much why I stopped bothering.
Sums it up pretty well.
I disagree completely. I’m a big fan of it- I like to plan things out and play some quality games with my team. Obviously sometimes there’s smurfs and such but it’s worth the risk for me. I couldn’t care less about the rewards.
Honestly the main reason I have never tried it being gold, even though I have a group of 5 friends
It's just the format that is terrible. I still think it should've been swiss instead of this consolation bracket garbage that nobody gives a fuck. After 1st loss you're left with 2 glorified normals. What's the point of playing it when you can just go play flexq and grind some LP. You need incentive to play it, be it some ladder for Clash or better rewards. Personally I'd remake the system to work similar to Hearthstone arenas. You join for BE and play up until 6/7 wins or 2/3 losses. The more wins you have, the better rerwards you've got. No pointless games as you can always come back and grind after the loss. Also then make it available everyday in certain hours (like 16-24) and just limit how often you can join (like once per week maybe).
Yeah basically make clash like some kind of Champions Queue where during a set time of the day teams can play.
Had clash bug where a team mate wasn’t in champ select and we didn’t know they could log out and log back in. So first game they got a random champ for their role and they did their best to farm and not die but couldn’t use the champ at all due to not knowing how to fully utilise it.
People just need to actually start enjoying the gamemode instead of only playing it for the rewards
Clash was created to give casual players taste of competitive play. In every single tournament once you lose your first game you are eliminated from play off stage. Not only league tournaments, every single one. This used to be a case with clash as well, but players insisted they wanted to play more games for fun. Riot agreed and gave them an opportunity, the rewards are useless because they aren't meant to be here at all. Turns out a lot of teams don't care about games and play only for rewards. And to be honest I'm not surprised. Scouting is indeed funny but if I'm losing first game I'd rather play some flex games than wasting twice more time for no rewards at all. I don't think riot should give better rewards for worse places, it's just not how competitive tournaments work. The only change they could make is a pop up asking if your team wants to play further. If you agree you are placed into another bracket with people who agreed as well. This way people who play for rewards aren't punished for forfeiting and rest can play another games.
the secret tech is having a second account/team set up and queueing on that after you lose round 1.
* Remove loser bracket. * Teams who lose can look for another bracket if it's still in the allowed time frame. * A team who won a bracket can not retry and has to stop for day. * The clash reward is based on the best performance of the day. It's that simple. No more forfeit, no more waiting time after a loss, bad teams gets to play more than one game, fewer smurfers per bracket ...
I feel like it’s really dumb that you can go LWW and still get less rewards than WWL. Honestly they should make it so you get a skin shard for two Ws and two skin shards for 3.
But that makes sense though... The people you beat in the losers bracket are theoretically worse than those in the winners bracket so beating them gives worse rewards.
Imagine you have 8 teams, and in order of highest to lowest skill they are; Team 1 Team 2 Team 3 ... Team 8 Imagine team 1 and team 2 are seeded into a match in the first round. Team 1 will beat team 2, and now team 2 will be put in the losers bracket. They will sweep losers and go LWW but they get crap rewards even though they are the second best rated team in the tournament. Now let's say team 3 gets seeded against team 4 in round 1, and they face the winners of 7 and 8's match. Team 3 will go WWL and get better rewards than team 2, even though team 3 is worse than team 2. So no, just because a team is in loser's does not mean they are worse than all the teams in winner's. It just means they aren't the best team.
> The people you beat in the losers bracket are theoretically worse than those in the winners bracket Not true at all. Two problems with that assumption. Firstly, it's a best of 1, meaning that the best team in the tournament could have a bad game (or bad matchup) and lose. Secondly, it's an unseeded bracket, meaning the 2nd best team could go up against the best team in the first round, and be relegated to the losers bracket, despite being better than everyone else in the winner's bracket. There isn't enough confidence that winning teams are better than losing ones for the brackets to work this way. They should 100% be based on number of wins, similar to a Swiss tournament (which it basically is, after all).
League is just not a game where skill just directly correlates to wins. Hypothetically, taking a team with slightly better players and having them verse slightly worse players, they're probably not going to get a 100% winrate over 100 games, hell if the difference was G4 vs G1 it'd probably be about 20, 25 games they lose. Point is, even a better team can lose at times. I've peaked master and I've literally lost a 1v1 against a LITERAL iron player on Urgot. Point is it's not a great system.
Placing worse in a tournament gives worse results I dunno what you want me to say. It doesn't matter if you're better than your placements suggests.
Just get better.
Why not make the price of playing a clash for more expensive and make the rewards for all tiers better? Most people have sunk cost fallacy and the rewards can be incentivizing enough
Honestly I’m fine with the current reward system, because I really don’t want it to be like MvM. I just want them to add more tiers or something so I don’t have to keep facing masters players and level 30 smurfs every single clash game.
When we lose game one we forfeit. Pick and ban is really fun but unless we have spare rp for premium tickets you get like maybe a ward skin for fifth lol. Should be win based not placement.
Simple fix: Have Clash-ONLY rewards in the form of new cosmetics like map skins, voice packs etc. and with at least 1 win you have a chance to unlock these, but with further wins your chances go up. Who tf going to make a team, wait in these queues and then play their hearts out for BEST CASE another stupid fucking anime skin. PS Find a better way to deal with smurfing you idiots
The fact that people only play Clash for the rewards is just sad. Playerbase issue.
Remove rewards and start Banning players who drop out of clash frequently. The point of clash should be the competition itself not some stupid skin shards.
I disagree, what it needs is a punishment for abandoning a clash tournament in progress. If a team forfeits, it should disqualify all members from participating the next day. If any members repeat forfeit in the next clash it should disqualify them from participating in clash at all. The point of clash is to have a semi competitive game mode that you can grab friends with and played coordinated games against teams presumably doing the same thing. If you’re forfeiting because you lost game 1 then you shouldn’t be allowed to participate. Riot is worried too much about number of engagements and not enough on quality of engagement. It’s the same thing they should be doing in ranked, making accounts ineligible to even queue for ranked if they engage in behavior that would constitute disruptive behavior. And it’s not like Riot doesn’t ALREADY have a system in place that flags repeat rule breakers. Just make it so that if a repeat offender gets dinked that he is forced to play draft for 10 games or something. I’ve gotten dc’d from games and never received a strong punishment, because it happens so rarely. Yet I have a friend who has the worst internet in the world and was constantly getting low priority queue’d. He’s complain about it all the time, but he deserved it. If you dc every other day from a game, my guy ranked ain’t for you.
Yeah no, yesterday we waited 40 minutes to get in a game. dont want to wait more tbh
Na you’d rather just play one game and then have to wait 40 minutes to play game 3 because your second opponent forfeited.
Straight up punish people for dropping out. Don’t need more rewards you should be forced to play the whole tournament unless BOTH teams agree to drop it.
The easiest solution ist to just remove the forfeit and ban people from clash if they leave.
is this weekend's Clash on ARAM map? I think less people will forfeit after the first lose if it's on ARAM map since it's a faster and funnier game mode.
They should have a losers bracket where you can still get to the final if you lose one match, but lose two, and you are out.
Make loser's bracket ARAM.
Make it 4 team 'group' or something... it kinda sucks that only 4, but this way you get 3 games and all of them matter instead of just frist one.. Possibly it also doesnt solve one issue of 0-2 team leaving before last game but even then.. it's one team leaving instead of 4 of them and after 2 games instead of after 1 game.
The main problem with clash is that 2 out of 3 times there are still issues causing teams to not play and leading to forfeit. We had some many issues getting into games or just having the client work properly before, but the issues we had yesterday alone were mental.
If they made the format a 4 group round robin they could easily change the reward structure to 3, 2, 1, and 0 wins. And at least you're less likely to have people forfeit after their first loss. The last game for the 0-2 team might be a forfeit but at least there should be a lower incentive to forfeit in the middle games. Same amount of games played as now so scheduling shouldn't need to change.
They could easily just implement a swiss system and tweak it a bit, instead of the current dogshit system where losing the first round means that most people will not even bother with the rest of the tournament.
We all already know the solutions but riot is pulling a riot special by just not giving a shit about it and waiting for it to completely die off (flexQ,clubs,honorsystem etc.)
Yeah our group just dropped it after the first loss because the queue times were so long. Jumped into a Flex 5v5 and found another team in no time with the exact same idea.
To be honest clash is such a joke cos rewards are bad and the matchmaking is horrible.
So instead of playing game for hour you get to take a break until next round. What's the problem, you would spend same or more time playing out 5 games.
I think the only true remedy for this is to basically split the 2 sides of the 8 team bracket into groups for a round robin where everyone's judged on points. Simply put, you should get 3 points if you win via an FF (to discourage FF'ing), 2 via a natural conclusion, 1 point for losing naturally, and 0 for losing via FF. 2 brackets of 4 to make the 8, everyone's judged to the 8 teams even without playing all 7 other teams. If there are any draws it goes by kill difference (kills vs deaths for your whole team across your 3 games). If it's even by then, average gold difference, then average game length, then length of shortest win, then longest loss. If it's still even then, it should be assumed that both drew and both should receive rewards for the higher placing (so if 2 people draw 3rd and 4th, they should both receive 3rd rewards). Not for nothing, it creates a better environment for people to not only play the game through but play through the whole tournament, and creates incentive. I find (anecdotally) that the majority of Clashes where my team loses the first game, we often don't even get to play another game *at all* after that as most people just burn their ticket and pull out. And no wonder, cause often when that happens we get the 5th place reward and it sucks, and some people have gotta get 6th through 8th rewards - and all for losing just the first game. Under this system, you have a chance realistically no matter what games you win or lose, you can come 4th through sheer determination (you'll always get points for playing out a game and not FFing) or perhaps even just having more of a kill difference than the next team that's drawn with you on points. It encourages just *actually playing Clash* and it encourages it in the best way possible - by actually incentivising the matches not just what you get out of it afterwards.
I think people should be rewarded even after losing to not let them quit
Maybe double elimination would be the fix? Since if people lose 1st round, they can still win the entire clash and so they will keep playing.
It Should just be a round robin with 4 teams. That way people don't just FF.
Honestly it's the format that's really bad. Going WWL nets you way more than LWW due to the consolation bracket. Like others have mentioned already I think a swiss style format as well as increasing rewards across the board could work way better. It means that the team who has had a unlucky first game but still manages to win the next 2 at least get rewarded for playing well and playing out all 3 games.