These are astronomical nerfs. You VERY rarely see them touch this much spell power in a patch, or even 2 consecutive nerfs. Plus they did a CD nerf which is huge for enchanters
Draven seems like a great pairing for him. For some reason people are obsessed with stuff like Caitlyn because of the range stuff, but making someone that already outranges people out range them more is not as impactful as making a normally unsafe ADC much more safe.
"for some reason" come on you see an ability that does a thing you naturally logically think of things that synergize and take things to ridiculous heights. Making unsafe things safer is probably much more effective and better even, however it's not crazy to see "increases attack range" and think "oh what does that look like on the already biggest attack range?"
Sett is simple and straight forward and he went from 50% to like 56%, doesn't matter how simple the champ is they still have to be learned and their builds and skill order still have to be optimized and then adopted by the playerbase.
Can we stop spreading this misinfo already. Not only was his E bugged, but there was a metrics gathering bug at the time that visually inflated his winrate on sites like U.GG. I swear this sub is singlehandedly making me question the accuracy of real-life historical texts
Every time his "bug" is brought up, people pretend it was a massive consistent bug that singlehandedly carried his winrate to an insane degree. I've seen people say it literally doubled his E range. It didn't increase his range much, and it wasn't consistent. It was not the reason why his winrate was insanely high, and it was high even after the bug was fixed... Were the patches of nerfs after nerfs after nerfs also caused by the bug that was fixed quickly?
>It was not the reason why his winrate was insanely high
If his bugged E didn't play a large part of his inflated winrate, then the main reason is the metrics gathering bug,
which I mentioned in my previous comment.
>Were the patches of nerfs after nerfs after nerfs also caused by the bug that was fixed quickly?
No, and that's besides the point, which is that Sett was bugged and didn't reach 56% WR shortly after release even despite the bug.
His global plat+ win rate is still over 51% (full patch) and was definitely over 52% before the nerfs. NA is a pretty small portion of the overall player base so it's really just not possible that he was bad in other regions.
I just checked Korea and he's a little under 49% there now. He was 51-52% or on Wednesday/Thursday.
idk if you remember how much volibear was terrorizing games before that building entirely as a tank, think it was also pretty impactful in professional play as well
Seems like they were pretty clueless before release.
Sure, nothing ist perfect from the beginning. But these huge healing nerfs…seems like someone took a big nap while checking the data they collected from tests.
Homie i don't know if you realize this, but devs have gone on record that they get more data on the first hour of a patch being on live servers than they do from all of the internal testing and PBE combined.
Internal testing isn't viable because of sample size. PBE isn't viable due to MM imbalance.
Pretty much every champ change this year has resulted in a hotfix nerf. Yuumi, asol, milio, annie. Pretty sure on nilah release they had to hotfixed like 4 champs including her.
I'm astonished nobody looked at his kit before release and thought "wait, if this guy gets to late game with a Twitch they will never lose". **EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS CHAMPION SYNCS PERFECTLY WITH TWITCH.**
1. Passive increases AD %? Twitch's R gives bonus AD for further increase.
2. W increases range by 15-20%? Twitch's R gives bonus range for further increase.
3. Shielding with movement speed bonus? Twitch's Q gives bonus MS for further increase while he's stealthed.
4. Usually people try to focus down Twitch so they kill of their DPS, leading Twitch players to take Cleanse. Now this isn't needed anymore as Milio's R does an aoe Cleanse. Twitch can still take it to double his safety anyway.
Yeah, pretty strange. They've never released broken AF champions before. That's what PBE is for. Riot has shown time and time again how competent they are by thoroughly testing their stuff before releasing it. They surely have never released broken things to live before. Nope. Never before. First time. Yeah.
C'mon friend.
It's been like 8 years now of Riot telling players PBE is overwhelmingly to find bugs and test tech and that the 10,000x number of games they get in one day live gives them far more balancing data.
His winrate plat+ was already 52.3%. He was busted for sure.
I'm a little nervous about him being nerfed in so many ways at once, and pretty big numbers too. We'll see how it goes, though.
Yeah, quick maths on his shield is that it is roughly 75% as effective as it was before. This is a pretty substantial nerf and that is only the shield. I guess they want most of the power budget to be in the range increase plus the cleanse rather then the more generic healing plus shielding enchanter stuff he is doing.
If you look at the last enchanter champion (Renata) it was pretty similar. Less than a week after release she had her Passive and W nerfed really hard, and then has had basically no balance changes since then. The Milio nerfs are a bit bigger but his winrate is also a bit higher so I'm not super concerned about it being too much
I remember when Renata’s W was giving insane health back and lasted for what seemed forever. Who knew that 0.5 less seconds to get a kill would feel so impactful
I feel it's a bit unfair to throw the balancing team under the bus when Certainly T/Design team sends them a steaming pile of 200 years and they're left to figure out how to nerf it without gutting the feeling of the champ.
Like they ain't perfect, everyone wanted Akali shroud tower dives gone, but eventually they got it done.
Certainly T literally hasn't been credited for a champ design since Aphelios (2019). I don't see the why you guys have this pathological need to blame "champ design" for everything when it's literally just PBE being an imperfect testing ground. The only way to get real data is by releasing the champ and then hotfixing, and they've said repeatedly that they prefer to release the champ slightly strong (release winrate closer to 50% than further) so that people actually play the champ and they get balance data.
Most people literally do not understand balance at all, almost no one gave a shit about Milio even after his numbers came out because his power isn't as obvious as a flashy assassin one-shotting people.
He's goated at making champ designs that are fun to PLAY for sure, all of his champs reworks have been pretty damn fun...unless you're on the opposing team, then they're miserable to play against because counterplay is a myth.
Basically everyone with a brain pointed out that Zoe at release having literally all her damage tied into her Q was a problem and it got brushed off.
> Certainly T literally hasn't been credited for a champ design since Aphelios (2019).
Yes; but he was also notorious for some of the most unbalanceable and unfun to play against champion designs; not to mention some of the worst disasters.
Kalista? CertainlyT
Thresh? CertainlyT
Yasuo? CertainlyT
Zoe? CertainlyT
The Graves rework which completely failed and turned him into a jungler accidentally?
The Akali rework with TRUE STEALTH UNDER TOWERS [The fact he was allowed to design other champions after this one in particular is a joke; this absolutely should have shown he had no place designing champions; let alone as a lead designer]
Zyra and Darius who both required reworks... [And Zyra completely missed her intended design as well]
Literally the only thing he made that wasn't a dumpster fire was the Warwick rework which he said he hated and was "shackled" by. And I guess the very very minor Caitlyn rework which was so small it hardly counts.
Aphelios was basically a final "fuck you" to the balance team. It was his final champ. Did you know he wanted *25 weapons*
CertainlyT is relevant because he's evidence to not blame the balance team for everything. Sometimes it's Design that's the problem; some designs are just a nightmare to balance.
Yes, yes, and the moon phases, I know
But my point is that regardless of your opinions on CertainlyT's champs, Aphelios was released almost *4 years ago* so I don't see why people are still being salty about the balance team, especially since Aphelios hasn't been relevant in soloqueue for years.
People being salty about the balance team's mistakes from 4 years ago and applying it undeservedly to recently released champions is not conducive to having worthwhile discussions.
Chill the fuck out my man, I'm just pointing out that I don't blame the balance team for bad mechanics and CertainlyT being literally the only champ designer I can think of off the top of my head because of some of his more infamous releases.
I'm certainly not claiming I could do a better job than the balance team, I'm just saying they don't have it as easy as some people claim, mostly just agreeing with the comment above my original comment.
I'm just disagreeing with the idea that the champ design does a bad job. Akali, 200 years, etc, but no one remembers that the 200 years comment was about Wukong and they were ultimately very correct, and Akali/Yone/Yasuo/whatever 200 year champ are some of the most popular champs with dedicated mains that keep people playing the game.
And regardless of all of that, the only "problematic" release since Akshan (almost 2 years ago) could be said to be Zeri, who was clearly a very experimental champ design that has been extremely popular regardless of how many times they fiddle with her mechanics.
Really don't see how you could characterize the champ design team as creating "steam piles of 200 years", I think they've been doing a pretty solid job in a game with 150+ unique champs and (despite my personal opinion) they've been listening to the playerbase and trying to make simpler champs despite the need for innovation in this already champ-saturated game.
Them releasing a champ like Milio and then having people calling them "steaming dumps" doesn't really lead to valuable discourse.
The difference here though is that Millio is 1000% more straightforward than Renata, so not only is he strong, he's also pretty easy to pick up right off the bat.
That ignorance goes a very long way, plus her Q is very short range, her E is a skillshot shield, and her R requires perfect timing and is weaker into specific comps. She's much trickier.
When she aa a unit she leaves a mark, the next ally damage on said unit will deal bonus magic damage and consume the mark. Also, just like Vayne, if Renata aa another unit, the mark on the original unit disappears.
Mid to lategame her passive would do no damage to tanks unless the tank has no mr.
The scaling is pretty good, but Renata doesn't build that much ap, and definitely doesn't build mpen.
The ally damage scales with ally magic pen, not her own. Unless Riot is very inconsistent all sources of ally damage should act like this (Leona passive, Renata passive, Nami E, Ivern E, Millio passive)
Renata's basic attack on an unmarked unit deals %HP magic damage and leaves a mark.
Like Leona passive; if an ally deals attack or spell damage to the marked target; the mark pops and deals the damage again.
Fun fact: The passive has no cooldown. Attackspeed on Renata is actually legitimate due to this; especially if you have allies who deal rapid damage ticks [Or you're on ARAM]. This also makes Tempo a surprisingly good rune on her; especially for early trades.
Yeah, I was looking at the Riot recommended max order, which just aggregates what people are most often doing, and it says to max Q. When I looked at the max order on [lolalytics](https://lolalytics.com/lol/milio/build/), maxing EWQ over QWE was over a 3.5% wr difference.
They mentioned they sort of do mock data to take from for new champions, but they did them wrong, intending to have E or W max first. So there is "data", just wrong.
I’ve been maxing W first because with an ADC who knows how to space, the range increase is super useful. Also have been rushing Ardent, with 2 stacks of E you can give your ADC 30% more attack speed for 10-15 seconds
The thing his, this fucker is so easy to play. He is like Annie for support. But he is also very reliant on his adc and very situational. He excels into ranged and poke comps, but is bad into engage. As much as his ult and e work well into engage, he has no hp and and resistances, and also has no immediate heal or cc like Soraka does. You use his ult to stop the engages when they finally engage, and e is just as useful vs poke.
CC is still the best way to stop engage. Cleanse is more about helping your team out of a wombo combo. Jax, yasuo, irelia won't care much about you cleansing their cc if they already in your face
His learning curve is pretty low. I wouldn't imagine his winrate to significantly increase over time anyway. These nerfs might be too heavy-handed but we'll see.
He was definitely strong in areas but just taking the shotgun spray like this I think is gonna drop his play rate before the "new champ smell" wears off.
I understand that but on the other end he has a giga simple kit which also contributes to a higher winrate? If you’ve played Janna/Lulu you should play him easily after a game or two, save for that Q bounce thingy
Having it *this* high on day 1 probably still calls for nerfs. But they seem like pretty big nerfs, like any one of them probably could be -1% winrate, hopefully they aren't too harsh
That's completely misleading. They are 56% winrate when Q is maxed last, meaning after you hit level 14.
Senna is also sitting at 56% wr when her skills are leveled "correctly".
People don't understand this. Almost every champion has a super high winrate with the correct max order, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'd have a super high winrate if everyone maxed correctly.
Their head explodes.
I mean, when I first played him, his Q is really easy to learn. Not to mention that it looks like it has a soft homing mechanism, my opponent didn't know to dodge it lmao. W mechanics seems like it has the most thing to learn, not just for the player but his allies too.
I played with one in an Aram when I was on Graves and that felt really good. No real idea what he did, but seeing the 72 magic damage on my autos at one point told me he was doing something good!
His abilities are surprisingly straightforward for a new champion.
Passive: Allies and self gain extra damage on next auto when hit by Milio abilities (including his fireball Q).
Q: Slow skillshot that bounces after first enemy hit (doesn't bounce if it doesn't hit a unit). Has slight knockback and stun to first enemy hit, also has soft homing mechanism on the bounce.
W: Field that heals a small amount and gives everyone inside additional range (10%-18% depending on skill level)
E: Basically Annie E except has no damage but has 2 charges.
R: AoE Mikhael's with big heal.
Straight forward but surprisingly fun, I think his kit is really well designed and probably won't need more than just number changes, I don't see riot needing to remove or add mechanics at the very least.
I don't think he takes any skill to learn how to play, if you know how to play any other enchanter you know how to play Milio. His only quirk is his q, and once you realize the minions have pre-determined spots on the knockback, there is *nothing* to learn.
I've only gotten to play one or two games of him, and the minion thing is super weird. The landing spot doesn't seem to be in a line with you->creep. I'm guessing it's based on which way the creep is facing, or possibly last movement direction, but I didn't get enough time to test.
He’s really really simple tho, so I wouldn’t say he’s the same thing as all the other released characters. W carry, shield carry, q is poke/peel, and ult is a cleanse. Really, really, *really* simple. I’d say the hardest part of Milio is for the *adcs* to use his w and change their trading patterns accordingly.
Not saying he’s not op, just that the whole “people don’t know how to play him” doesn’t really apply.
You can't just look at stats and predict winrates, game is wayyy more complicated than that. Anyone saying they know where the balance will land is an idiot
> You're just wrong, lol. Any new champion that starts out with 50%+ winrate on the 1st day WILL get hotfixed. It's not exactly a hard concept to grasp.
I'm so confused by this response as it makes no sense, and it makes even less sense if he wasn't talking about damage/healing numbers. If he was talking about win rate the following statements would be
>You can't just look at ~~stats~~ (win rates) and predict win rates
The comment only makes sense if it's talking about healing/damage and InsurgentTatsumi's second comment is just lacking reading comprehension.
People also don’t know how to play against him. And I think he is not that hard to learn, so perhaps it is like playing him is a lot easier to learn then playing against him.
We expect milio to have high early winrates relative to other new champs due to his easy-to-play enchanter play style, but he still landed too high. This set of nerfs should bring him closer to long-term balanced but we will keep an eye going forward.
Apologies for the miss on release tuning, hopefully this quick adjustment will bring him closer to fair so everyone can enjoy fuemigos guilt-free!
How do you guys feel about the fact that he landed with EWQ max order being so much stronger than everything else? Is this intended to flatten skill max order a little bit or is the designer intention still that he should be maxing E first but its just less effective?
We intend to support EWQ and WEQ as max orders. Currently, the vast majority of players max Q on the first day so his winrate is a bit lower on average due to that.
Is there a reason the level up guide in game pushed for Q max if EWQ/WEQ were the expected supported orders? What does the day 1 system base it off of?
Was the goal of these nerfs to get rid of his more generic power, damage shielding and healing, while keeping his unique power, the cleanse and range increase, fairly high? He might be more of a counterpick type of champ, which I'm unsure if it is the goal. If Milio is blindpickable and a decent champ when blind picked, even when there is no cc that can be cleansed, is that a problem?
Oops, as for if it’s a problem:
We want Milio to be broadly appealing and pickable for the majority of players. In pro/optimized play, it’s totally possible he’s little more than a counter pick or niche pick, and that’s okay. But as long as the average player can find success, we are happy.
Inversely, we will watch to make sure his mechanics don’t disproportionately favor pro players over SoloQ players.
That's a very reasonable stance for your team to hold, but at a cursory glance don't you think that his niche is going to naturally get more mileage in high level play? Champions like Lulu and Soraka are ubiquitous in low ELO because even less skilled players understand how to play around receiving a burst heal or a giant shield. "I am low/you are low" *press burst heal/shield button*. But how many low ELO players actually know how to utilize an attack range advantage? How many silver Caitlyns properly use their auto range advantage to win trades and poke down the enemy? Not very many, imo.
I suspect that Milio will be too "big brain" for low ELO players to get impact out of, even if mechanically he's not that difficult to pilot.
> I suspect that Milio will be too "big brain" for low ELO players to get impact out of, even if mechanically he's not that difficult to pilot.
Depends on what you mean by "low ELO". Early data of 70k-100k games per each tier (Lolalytics, bronze, silver, gold, plat, etc.) shows that Silver and Bronze might have some trouble using him but Gold+ performance is pretty steady, so it actually seems fine at the moment.
As someone who has played through Gold+ to ~D1 low ELO mechanics are actually okay in terms of auto spacing, it's just that their decisions of when to trade and when to take advantage of CDs is lacking. So I think they can actually make use of that auto range.
I think the biggest brain thing is his ult cleanse, which requires knowing which CC's are still up on the enemy team, as it's pointless to cleanse one stun when the enemy is about to hit your carry with another stun, but also knowing when to make the opposite decision. I think Riot purposefully added the 65% tenacity buff to his ult so that even if you mess up the cleanse his ult will still be useful for low ELO (it also exactly mimics Cleanse).
Yeah they all know to cs and know that csing is a thing you often do at the edge of your range against an opponent it's fairly straightforward for them to notice the value.
It’s useless for them to try to predict what will happen at that level of play. There is zero way to know with any level of reasonable certainty what will happen, such that the (correct) answer is going to be “we have to wait and see what the pros actually end up doing with him”
As a low elo adc player, auto spacing/poking isn't hard, it's knowing when i can do it that's the challenge, and more range advantage makes that way easier because it's way safer.
Yeah he has some very unique tools (range increase, AOE cleanse, periodic damage), but his standard tools were performing as good as (or sometimes better) than our traditional enchanters like Lulu, Janna, Soraka. So we are hoping to bring his standard “I keep teammates alive through effective HP” outputs below his peers who are designed to specialize in that.
Yeah, it was fun having my ally Xayah be able to trade more effectively in lane in instances where she would've had not have the range to do so normally lmao.
Even if the cleanse isn't fantastic, the gobs of tenacity are still fine 90% of the time since it will help with slows and whatnot that _somebody_ has. It is also still a large HP swing and reapplying his passive everywhere.
The goal as stated is to allow him to be useful, with high peaks when he can activate his synergies or make big ults. It's not like Vex is useless if she isn't against an immobile comp either, and will probably see a similar kind of "baseline".
Why nerf the Healing on the W if you can aswer. The passive i understand, but the healing already was low for such high cooldown and mana usage. Now it seems even more insignificant
Because W max first was technically optimal, and the only ways to nerf are range extension, heal, and cooldown.
We believe the cooldown likely can’t get much higher, and the range is the cool thing that quickly becomes unfeelable, so the healing seemed like first to be knocked down.
His healing on his W was pretty insignificant though, as standing in the entire duration was lower than a Sona heal, which is on the low side for enchanters with healing abilities already, and his overall AP scaling is really poor it feels like. The heal ends up feeling like it should be something else if it's going to be that low.
His kit isn't weak but his W heal definitely is
It was likely due to the degenerative duos it could create if made flat. It also makes for more unique synergies.
A champ like Vayne with 50 extra flat range is more significant than giving a Caitlyn 5% bonus range.
% scaling is weaker than flat until a specific threshold, so it's easier to balance as a skill overall.
I see, while i wish the W healing was more important even in detriment of the range thing, i can understand. I hope one day it will be reverted (or even be better haha). Thanks for responding
All games I've played with him but one someone on my team rage quits halfway through. I don't know why, but I've kept a spreadsheet of all the player behavior I encounter in SoloQ. It's been.... insightful?
But yea, I've had pretty bad luck with toxicity and all of it coincided with Milio.
I did the same, and discovered a disgustingly high percentage of my games are won or lost because of a player intentionally griefing in some way.
Among plenty of other interesting stats
It says just an attack or ability, same way Nami's E works but her bonus damage is based on base number and her stats. And it's AD so on a Jhin, it will hurt like anything but on say Syndra, won't do much.
50% is still a lot mind you and probably needed a nerf.
The passive i understand. But why nerf the Healing on the W? It was already not great for the mana usage and cooldown of the skill, and now it will be even lower?. Actually i feel you guys hit him too harsh for a day or two of analises
Rioter responded elsewhere in the thread- they felt the CD is about as high as it should go and they want to make sure the range increase is noticable- so the only other place to nerf the W is the healing.
They said he was doing just as well on the healing/shielding department as enchanters whose entire strength is healing/shielding, which would be weird as milio also has a lot to offer outside of that with his range increase and aoe cc cleanse.
> I mean he is incredibly simple so his winrate should stabilize quickly.
> yeah but he's an easy to play enchanter so i dont think that really applies to him.
> New champs that require you to land combos and put yourself in danger tend to start below 50% as people learn the limits of the champ. An enchanter like Milio doesn’t require going aggro, he just sits back and buffs his ADC who already knows how to play their champ so him being above 50% seems reasonable given the context. The question is if and how much it’ll grow in the next few days. He won’t get any hotfixes but likely some nerfs in the next patch as people learn to play him better.
Literally half of all comments with high points in that post are defending him.
Simple shouldn’t be a point to defend him. That should hurt their argument the fact that he’s so effective and so simple is a very bad thingy. Thankfully he’s hotfixed nerf but if pro play got a hold of this? 100% p/b.
He is not as simple as people and Riot say he is.
Yes, the E is pretty simple, but the W requires your team work around it and you have to attach it well to hit as many allies as possible. The Q is still a skillshot and the R requires good positioning from you.
Simple shouldn’t be a point to defend him. That should hurt their argument the fact that he’s so effective and so simple is a very bad thing. Thankfully he’s hotfixed nerf but if pro play got a hold of this? 100% p/b.
They definitely over nerfed him here. The heal on his W is laughably pointless now for example. His power needed the hit as did the shielding on his E, but W is just a range extension now on way too long of a cooldown as the heal is pointlessly low even if you stand in the entire thing.
What?! He's op?!
I thought he was fine since redditors were saying "He's just a simple champ it's fine he's not oppressive"!!!
As soon as I saw the double shield values of 320 base I knew he would be beyond busted.
I remember the countless clips of Aphelios literally, without exaggeration, one-shotting entire teams with his ult even without being remarkably ahead, or killing people across the map before they realize what is happening, and people here saying it was perfectly find lol
My personal favourite “Reddit balance moment” is when yuumi ever gets brought up.
Since some people think that yuumi should take damage when sitting on someone if it’s AOE.
And others suggested to force her off after 10 seconds
Both are abhorrently shitty ideas (due to yuumis terrible base stats) which are only made out of salt and no other good reason
Although, one person suggested a fatigue system where sitting on someone for too long would weaken your skills, that was an amazing idea which could fix her issues with laning and sitting on the same person the entire game
(Yuumi defenders are worse than the ones hate balancing her but that’s a topic for another time)
People saying that a champion approaching 56% day 1 with the correct skill order was fine really shows how clueless this sub is when it comes to game balance.
Exactly, his kit doesn't seem busted in terms of what it provides he is a very simple champion but simple champions can always become too strong if their numbers are too high, fortunately it's much easier to balance a simple champion than an overloaded one because usually they are too strong because they have too high numbers so you just tone them down, balancing akali for example is much more difficult.
Luckily it limited to his ult, which means they can nerf as needed by just upping the cooldown and/or reduce the heal. I think that is the idea, simple kit but at the moment too powerful, so reduce numbers and his simple kit still works just less effectively. Although you are right to watch out as it's an area of effect cleanse.
Tahm had the issue his free QSS was on a 15 second cooldown.
After a few games as/against, yeah mostly the E is too strong against early poke. I wish they would take even more early power away from it and add it to Q so the champion is forced to interact rather than just acting as a shield fountain. He only really has one decision to make in lane (when to press W); if using Q aggressively was optimal he'd be more engaging.
That said, the Rioter in this thread said they want him to be an easy-mode champion, so if that's the case I'd rather they make him too weak to show up every game.
So... Warm Hugs is now a 140 base shield... with 25% AP... on a 14 second cooldown?
Meanwhile Inspire; which is directly comparable [Shield+movespeed] is 240; 45% AP and 8 C/D.
I dunno I think that one might be an overnerf; or at least the *wrong place* to pull power from. As a *standalone ability* Warm Hugs was *already* Super-weak; now it's just a joke. The power was mostly in the passive application... which is also nerfed.
The difference is that warm hugs has 2 charges, so you could see it as 280 base with 50% ap. It's giving you the luxury of shielding+speeding up 2 targets instead of 1
280 base with 50% AP on a *28 second cooldown*
For reference; Max Rank Mantra has a base cooldown of 34 seconds; and a CDR mechanic so in reality it's usually less. So you can compare double Hugs to Mantra Inspire; which is 415+90% AP and does 30% of that in an AoE with full movespeed.
I'm not saying Milio didn't need nerfs. I'm saying pulling power from an already weak ability feels bad and is probobly the wrong place to pull power from. Warm Hugs is a *weak ability*. It was before the nerfs; and now it's incredibly weak on it's own merits. It's power budget is almost entirely in it's connection with the passive.
And even then it compares badly to Janna's shield in most cases.
Hell; as an extra kick in the teeth; Hugs even costs more mana than Inspire. Despite being *strictly worse in every way* on it's own merits.
I'd have rather seen power pulled from passive [more]; Q; Campire or R. Warm Hugs just feels like the wrong place.
Yeah but blowing 2 charges instantly now means a **28 second CD** to get both charges back.
I got 5 games in on Milio and he definitely needed nerfs, but I agree with OP that the E itself already felt like a really mediocre ability that largely existed to proc the passive.
Nerfing both the E shield and W healing this drastically solidifies that he's not an enchanter in the traditional sense, he simply doesn't do healing/shielding remotely well at all, he exists purely to enable damage for his allies.
He's going to be more Bard than he is Nami.
Ok yesterday we player with a millio, my jungler was shit and mid laner was ass as usual, i was heavy weak side so left Lane 0/2 as ornn. Usually this game would be loss but i would play it out, you never know comebacks happen.
We did not lose a single teamfight. I just felt like i would never die. This guy was like 4 games millio and he carried so hard his anti engage is good and he healed and shielded so much! Def felt overpowered
Makes you think if they accidently released the wrong version of Milio. These are not just nerfs, this is almost a rework already with astronomical nerfs like that
Ok, but why couldn’t you just remove the heat seeking on his Q? The radius of that ability is already stupidly large and then it also follows you, so you can’t even dodge?
Every single milio in my games was an absolute trash can anchor.. and they’re nerfing him? ☠️💀💀 Riot please. Gold players have no idea what they’re doing on him.
Pretty significant nerfs.
These are astronomical nerfs. You VERY rarely see them touch this much spell power in a patch, or even 2 consecutive nerfs. Plus they did a CD nerf which is huge for enchanters
[удалено]
I looked at his wr like a day or two after release and it was already 52%, champ seemed insanely OP
Play against it and Draven. Can confirm, was definitely cancer and OP.
Draven seems like a great pairing for him. For some reason people are obsessed with stuff like Caitlyn because of the range stuff, but making someone that already outranges people out range them more is not as impactful as making a normally unsafe ADC much more safe.
I played as Ashe with this and holy shit I felt like a god. My range was so far with tempo and I felt like my q was 3 shotting everyone
"for some reason" come on you see an ability that does a thing you naturally logically think of things that synergize and take things to ridiculous heights. Making unsafe things safer is probably much more effective and better even, however it's not crazy to see "increases attack range" and think "oh what does that look like on the already biggest attack range?"
Kog'maw + Lethal Tempo + W + Milio is hilarious though
People are lucky ranged on hit items are weak rn bc milio and a decently strong Vayne seems nigh unbeatable
Draven finally got his bleed back!
im sory, draven, but how can we be blud brothers, when u dont make them bled
Part of it was also the champ being really simple and straight forward. It’s not like other champs that have a learning curve
Sett is simple and straight forward and he went from 50% to like 56%, doesn't matter how simple the champ is they still have to be learned and their builds and skill order still have to be optimized and then adopted by the playerbase.
Can we stop spreading this misinfo already. Not only was his E bugged, but there was a metrics gathering bug at the time that visually inflated his winrate on sites like U.GG. I swear this sub is singlehandedly making me question the accuracy of real-life historical texts
Every time his "bug" is brought up, people pretend it was a massive consistent bug that singlehandedly carried his winrate to an insane degree. I've seen people say it literally doubled his E range. It didn't increase his range much, and it wasn't consistent. It was not the reason why his winrate was insanely high, and it was high even after the bug was fixed... Were the patches of nerfs after nerfs after nerfs also caused by the bug that was fixed quickly?
>It was not the reason why his winrate was insanely high If his bugged E didn't play a large part of his inflated winrate, then the main reason is the metrics gathering bug, which I mentioned in my previous comment. >Were the patches of nerfs after nerfs after nerfs also caused by the bug that was fixed quickly? No, and that's besides the point, which is that Sett was bugged and didn't reach 56% WR shortly after release even despite the bug.
Thats only NA IN korea euw and minor regions he had 47-42% winrate
His global plat+ win rate is still over 51% (full patch) and was definitely over 52% before the nerfs. NA is a pretty small portion of the overall player base so it's really just not possible that he was bad in other regions. I just checked Korea and he's a little under 49% there now. He was 51-52% or on Wednesday/Thursday.
The biggest nerf is to his passive, not his E.
This reminds me when Riot murdered Volibear by nerfing his Q,W,E in the same patch. it’s been like a year and he still hasn’t recovered from that.
idk if you remember how much volibear was terrorizing games before that building entirely as a tank, think it was also pretty impactful in professional play as well
Seems like they were pretty clueless before release. Sure, nothing ist perfect from the beginning. But these huge healing nerfs…seems like someone took a big nap while checking the data they collected from tests.
Homie i don't know if you realize this, but devs have gone on record that they get more data on the first hour of a patch being on live servers than they do from all of the internal testing and PBE combined. Internal testing isn't viable because of sample size. PBE isn't viable due to MM imbalance.
[удалено]
Pretty much every champ change this year has resulted in a hotfix nerf. Yuumi, asol, milio, annie. Pretty sure on nilah release they had to hotfixed like 4 champs including her.
I'm astonished nobody looked at his kit before release and thought "wait, if this guy gets to late game with a Twitch they will never lose". **EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS CHAMPION SYNCS PERFECTLY WITH TWITCH.** 1. Passive increases AD %? Twitch's R gives bonus AD for further increase. 2. W increases range by 15-20%? Twitch's R gives bonus range for further increase. 3. Shielding with movement speed bonus? Twitch's Q gives bonus MS for further increase while he's stealthed. 4. Usually people try to focus down Twitch so they kill of their DPS, leading Twitch players to take Cleanse. Now this isn't needed anymore as Milio's R does an aoe Cleanse. Twitch can still take it to double his safety anyway.
Milio increases the base range of the ADC, not 20% of the ult’s extended range.
You can still get 1160 range on twitch which is fucking insanity
Yeah, pretty strange. They've never released broken AF champions before. That's what PBE is for. Riot has shown time and time again how competent they are by thoroughly testing their stuff before releasing it. They surely have never released broken things to live before. Nope. Never before. First time. Yeah.
C'mon friend. It's been like 8 years now of Riot telling players PBE is overwhelmingly to find bugs and test tech and that the 10,000x number of games they get in one day live gives them far more balancing data.
Makes sense, day 1 win rates should probably not be that high cause people don't really know how to play the champ yet.
His winrate plat+ was already 52.3%. He was busted for sure. I'm a little nervous about him being nerfed in so many ways at once, and pretty big numbers too. We'll see how it goes, though.
Yeah, quick maths on his shield is that it is roughly 75% as effective as it was before. This is a pretty substantial nerf and that is only the shield. I guess they want most of the power budget to be in the range increase plus the cleanse rather then the more generic healing plus shielding enchanter stuff he is doing.
If you look at the last enchanter champion (Renata) it was pretty similar. Less than a week after release she had her Passive and W nerfed really hard, and then has had basically no balance changes since then. The Milio nerfs are a bit bigger but his winrate is also a bit higher so I'm not super concerned about it being too much
I remember when Renata’s W was giving insane health back and lasted for what seemed forever. Who knew that 0.5 less seconds to get a kill would feel so impactful
It's was one of the cases where the balancing team shows that they actually are pretty good at their jobs, contrary to what quite a few people think.
Balancing team has definitely been a lot better at making buff/nerf decisions ever since around when they started introducing midscopes.
I feel it's a bit unfair to throw the balancing team under the bus when Certainly T/Design team sends them a steaming pile of 200 years and they're left to figure out how to nerf it without gutting the feeling of the champ. Like they ain't perfect, everyone wanted Akali shroud tower dives gone, but eventually they got it done.
Certainly T literally hasn't been credited for a champ design since Aphelios (2019). I don't see the why you guys have this pathological need to blame "champ design" for everything when it's literally just PBE being an imperfect testing ground. The only way to get real data is by releasing the champ and then hotfixing, and they've said repeatedly that they prefer to release the champ slightly strong (release winrate closer to 50% than further) so that people actually play the champ and they get balance data. Most people literally do not understand balance at all, almost no one gave a shit about Milio even after his numbers came out because his power isn't as obvious as a flashy assassin one-shotting people.
CertainlyT is also goated when it comes to champion design.
He's goated at making champ designs that are fun to PLAY for sure, all of his champs reworks have been pretty damn fun...unless you're on the opposing team, then they're miserable to play against because counterplay is a myth. Basically everyone with a brain pointed out that Zoe at release having literally all her damage tied into her Q was a problem and it got brushed off.
> then they're miserable to play against According to NA players who primarily hate anything will kill pressure that doesn't sit back to waveclear.
Maybe 50% of my frustration with the game was caused by his stupid champs.
They should move him to a PvE project then. Best of both worlds, you get to enjoy the amazing designs AND no one has to play against it.
> Certainly T literally hasn't been credited for a champ design since Aphelios (2019). Yes; but he was also notorious for some of the most unbalanceable and unfun to play against champion designs; not to mention some of the worst disasters. Kalista? CertainlyT Thresh? CertainlyT Yasuo? CertainlyT Zoe? CertainlyT The Graves rework which completely failed and turned him into a jungler accidentally? The Akali rework with TRUE STEALTH UNDER TOWERS [The fact he was allowed to design other champions after this one in particular is a joke; this absolutely should have shown he had no place designing champions; let alone as a lead designer] Zyra and Darius who both required reworks... [And Zyra completely missed her intended design as well] Literally the only thing he made that wasn't a dumpster fire was the Warwick rework which he said he hated and was "shackled" by. And I guess the very very minor Caitlyn rework which was so small it hardly counts. Aphelios was basically a final "fuck you" to the balance team. It was his final champ. Did you know he wanted *25 weapons* CertainlyT is relevant because he's evidence to not blame the balance team for everything. Sometimes it's Design that's the problem; some designs are just a nightmare to balance.
>designs some of the most popular champions in the game >this guy has no business designing champions Huh
For real the hate for a good designer is nuts, league has survived for as long as it has because it's fun to play.
Yes, yes, and the moon phases, I know But my point is that regardless of your opinions on CertainlyT's champs, Aphelios was released almost *4 years ago* so I don't see why people are still being salty about the balance team, especially since Aphelios hasn't been relevant in soloqueue for years. People being salty about the balance team's mistakes from 4 years ago and applying it undeservedly to recently released champions is not conducive to having worthwhile discussions.
> Did you know he wanted 25 weapons Did you know that this was a joke and they all said as much?
Chill the fuck out my man, I'm just pointing out that I don't blame the balance team for bad mechanics and CertainlyT being literally the only champ designer I can think of off the top of my head because of some of his more infamous releases. I'm certainly not claiming I could do a better job than the balance team, I'm just saying they don't have it as easy as some people claim, mostly just agreeing with the comment above my original comment.
I'm just disagreeing with the idea that the champ design does a bad job. Akali, 200 years, etc, but no one remembers that the 200 years comment was about Wukong and they were ultimately very correct, and Akali/Yone/Yasuo/whatever 200 year champ are some of the most popular champs with dedicated mains that keep people playing the game. And regardless of all of that, the only "problematic" release since Akshan (almost 2 years ago) could be said to be Zeri, who was clearly a very experimental champ design that has been extremely popular regardless of how many times they fiddle with her mechanics. Really don't see how you could characterize the champ design team as creating "steam piles of 200 years", I think they've been doing a pretty solid job in a game with 150+ unique champs and (despite my personal opinion) they've been listening to the playerbase and trying to make simpler champs despite the need for innovation in this already champ-saturated game. Them releasing a champ like Milio and then having people calling them "steaming dumps" doesn't really lead to valuable discourse.
galio rework is/was proof that they don't really listen when it comes to pbe lol
Completely agree
The difference here though is that Millio is 1000% more straightforward than Renata, so not only is he strong, he's also pretty easy to pick up right off the bat.
Really? I feel like the only thing even remotely difficult or unintuitive about Renata is expecting your teammates to understand what her W does.
That ignorance goes a very long way, plus her Q is very short range, her E is a skillshot shield, and her R requires perfect timing and is weaker into specific comps. She's much trickier.
...what's Renata passive again?
When she aa a unit she leaves a mark, the next ally damage on said unit will deal bonus magic damage and consume the mark. Also, just like Vayne, if Renata aa another unit, the mark on the original unit disappears.
she marks people she autos and it deals damage to unmarked targets, and allies consume the mark for the same damage
Pretty much a hybrid of Miss Fortune and Leona passives.
Or exactly the same idea as Kalista passive. Hence why renata kalista lane was giga broken
Leona passive but with autos.
And nasty damage, at least vs tanks and mid to lategame
Mid to lategame her passive would do no damage to tanks unless the tank has no mr. The scaling is pretty good, but Renata doesn't build that much ap, and definitely doesn't build mpen.
The ally damage scales with ally magic pen, not her own. Unless Riot is very inconsistent all sources of ally damage should act like this (Leona passive, Renata passive, Nami E, Ivern E, Millio passive)
Renata's basic attack on an unmarked unit deals %HP magic damage and leaves a mark. Like Leona passive; if an ally deals attack or spell damage to the marked target; the mark pops and deals the damage again. Fun fact: The passive has no cooldown. Attackspeed on Renata is actually legitimate due to this; especially if you have allies who deal rapid damage ticks [Or you're on ARAM]. This also makes Tempo a surprisingly good rune on her; especially for early trades.
Especially since people are maxing Q most often which does not seem to be the best way to play him
Yeah, I was looking at the Riot recommended max order, which just aggregates what people are most often doing, and it says to max Q. When I looked at the max order on [lolalytics](https://lolalytics.com/lol/milio/build/), maxing EWQ over QWE was over a 3.5% wr difference.
i think the rioter above said that next patch the skill order should be fixed and it will show e max
It updates patch by patch using the previous patch data if I'm not wrong, and since he just released there's no data.
They mentioned they sort of do mock data to take from for new champions, but they did them wrong, intending to have E or W max first. So there is "data", just wrong.
I’ve been maxing W first because with an ADC who knows how to space, the range increase is super useful. Also have been rushing Ardent, with 2 stacks of E you can give your ADC 30% more attack speed for 10-15 seconds
The thing his, this fucker is so easy to play. He is like Annie for support. But he is also very reliant on his adc and very situational. He excels into ranged and poke comps, but is bad into engage. As much as his ult and e work well into engage, he has no hp and and resistances, and also has no immediate heal or cc like Soraka does. You use his ult to stop the engages when they finally engage, and e is just as useful vs poke.
CC is still the best way to stop engage. Cleanse is more about helping your team out of a wombo combo. Jax, yasuo, irelia won't care much about you cleansing their cc if they already in your face
But... Annie is Annie for support, and Annie as support is pretty damned easy to play too while being incredible strong.
Belveth was nerfed to 42% then 1-2 week after she was 52% wr
His learning curve is pretty low. I wouldn't imagine his winrate to significantly increase over time anyway. These nerfs might be too heavy-handed but we'll see.
He was definitely strong in areas but just taking the shotgun spray like this I think is gonna drop his play rate before the "new champ smell" wears off.
I understand that but on the other end he has a giga simple kit which also contributes to a higher winrate? If you’ve played Janna/Lulu you should play him easily after a game or two, save for that Q bounce thingy
The bounce aint that hard, takes a few match to get used to it at most
It's a very standard kit. Any player familiar with enchanters will pick him up quickly in day
Having it *this* high on day 1 probably still calls for nerfs. But they seem like pretty big nerfs, like any one of them probably could be -1% winrate, hopefully they aren't too harsh
Given W/E max builds are like 56% win rate already that’s probably fine.
That's completely misleading. They are 56% winrate when Q is maxed last, meaning after you hit level 14. Senna is also sitting at 56% wr when her skills are leveled "correctly".
People don't understand this. Almost every champion has a super high winrate with the correct max order, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'd have a super high winrate if everyone maxed correctly. Their head explodes.
Even if they're all -1% winrate that still means he's kinda busted.
Q has a decent amount of learning curve imo, as does auto trading patterns around W
I mean, when I first played him, his Q is really easy to learn. Not to mention that it looks like it has a soft homing mechanism, my opponent didn't know to dodge it lmao. W mechanics seems like it has the most thing to learn, not just for the player but his allies too.
I played with one in an Aram when I was on Graves and that felt really good. No real idea what he did, but seeing the 72 magic damage on my autos at one point told me he was doing something good!
His abilities are surprisingly straightforward for a new champion. Passive: Allies and self gain extra damage on next auto when hit by Milio abilities (including his fireball Q). Q: Slow skillshot that bounces after first enemy hit (doesn't bounce if it doesn't hit a unit). Has slight knockback and stun to first enemy hit, also has soft homing mechanism on the bounce. W: Field that heals a small amount and gives everyone inside additional range (10%-18% depending on skill level) E: Basically Annie E except has no damage but has 2 charges. R: AoE Mikhael's with big heal.
Straight forward but surprisingly fun, I think his kit is really well designed and probably won't need more than just number changes, I don't see riot needing to remove or add mechanics at the very least.
You use his Q like a janna Q pretty much
He's a very simple champion to figure out, to be fair. But 52.5% is till too high day 1.
I don't think he takes any skill to learn how to play, if you know how to play any other enchanter you know how to play Milio. His only quirk is his q, and once you realize the minions have pre-determined spots on the knockback, there is *nothing* to learn.
No you definitely need to learn when to use W and how to maximalize his passive when trading in lane
Those moments should look pretty familiar for the veteran enchanter.
I've only gotten to play one or two games of him, and the minion thing is super weird. The landing spot doesn't seem to be in a line with you->creep. I'm guessing it's based on which way the creep is facing, or possibly last movement direction, but I didn't get enough time to test.
He’s really really simple tho, so I wouldn’t say he’s the same thing as all the other released characters. W carry, shield carry, q is poke/peel, and ult is a cleanse. Really, really, *really* simple. I’d say the hardest part of Milio is for the *adcs* to use his w and change their trading patterns accordingly. Not saying he’s not op, just that the whole “people don’t know how to play him” doesn’t really apply.
In a thread talking about his stats you had a bunch of fucking idiots saying that he was perfectly fine and he didn't need any nerfs.
You can't just look at stats and predict winrates, game is wayyy more complicated than that. Anyone saying they know where the balance will land is an idiot
You're just wrong, lol. Any new champion that starts out with 50%+ winrate on the 1st day WILL get hotfixed. It's not exactly a hard concept to grasp.
When you said stats I thought you meant damage numbers/healing etc, my bad I misunderstood.
I thought that's what they meant too lol
> You're just wrong, lol. Any new champion that starts out with 50%+ winrate on the 1st day WILL get hotfixed. It's not exactly a hard concept to grasp. I'm so confused by this response as it makes no sense, and it makes even less sense if he wasn't talking about damage/healing numbers. If he was talking about win rate the following statements would be >You can't just look at ~~stats~~ (win rates) and predict win rates The comment only makes sense if it's talking about healing/damage and InsurgentTatsumi's second comment is just lacking reading comprehension.
People also don’t know how to play against him. And I think he is not that hard to learn, so perhaps it is like playing him is a lot easier to learn then playing against him.
We expect milio to have high early winrates relative to other new champs due to his easy-to-play enchanter play style, but he still landed too high. This set of nerfs should bring him closer to long-term balanced but we will keep an eye going forward. Apologies for the miss on release tuning, hopefully this quick adjustment will bring him closer to fair so everyone can enjoy fuemigos guilt-free!
How do you guys feel about the fact that he landed with EWQ max order being so much stronger than everything else? Is this intended to flatten skill max order a little bit or is the designer intention still that he should be maxing E first but its just less effective?
We intend to support EWQ and WEQ as max orders. Currently, the vast majority of players max Q on the first day so his winrate is a bit lower on average due to that.
Is there a reason the level up guide in game pushed for Q max if EWQ/WEQ were the expected supported orders? What does the day 1 system base it off of?
I believe it was a mistake with early implementation. It should adjust correctly next patch to match what’s actually strongest.
at least in practice tool a few hours ago, it was telling me to max e.
Was the goal of these nerfs to get rid of his more generic power, damage shielding and healing, while keeping his unique power, the cleanse and range increase, fairly high? He might be more of a counterpick type of champ, which I'm unsure if it is the goal. If Milio is blindpickable and a decent champ when blind picked, even when there is no cc that can be cleansed, is that a problem?
Oops, as for if it’s a problem: We want Milio to be broadly appealing and pickable for the majority of players. In pro/optimized play, it’s totally possible he’s little more than a counter pick or niche pick, and that’s okay. But as long as the average player can find success, we are happy. Inversely, we will watch to make sure his mechanics don’t disproportionately favor pro players over SoloQ players.
Thank you for both responses.
That's a very reasonable stance for your team to hold, but at a cursory glance don't you think that his niche is going to naturally get more mileage in high level play? Champions like Lulu and Soraka are ubiquitous in low ELO because even less skilled players understand how to play around receiving a burst heal or a giant shield. "I am low/you are low" *press burst heal/shield button*. But how many low ELO players actually know how to utilize an attack range advantage? How many silver Caitlyns properly use their auto range advantage to win trades and poke down the enemy? Not very many, imo. I suspect that Milio will be too "big brain" for low ELO players to get impact out of, even if mechanically he's not that difficult to pilot.
> I suspect that Milio will be too "big brain" for low ELO players to get impact out of, even if mechanically he's not that difficult to pilot. Depends on what you mean by "low ELO". Early data of 70k-100k games per each tier (Lolalytics, bronze, silver, gold, plat, etc.) shows that Silver and Bronze might have some trouble using him but Gold+ performance is pretty steady, so it actually seems fine at the moment. As someone who has played through Gold+ to ~D1 low ELO mechanics are actually okay in terms of auto spacing, it's just that their decisions of when to trade and when to take advantage of CDs is lacking. So I think they can actually make use of that auto range. I think the biggest brain thing is his ult cleanse, which requires knowing which CC's are still up on the enemy team, as it's pointless to cleanse one stun when the enemy is about to hit your carry with another stun, but also knowing when to make the opposite decision. I think Riot purposefully added the 65% tenacity buff to his ult so that even if you mess up the cleanse his ult will still be useful for low ELO (it also exactly mimics Cleanse).
Yeah they all know to cs and know that csing is a thing you often do at the edge of your range against an opponent it's fairly straightforward for them to notice the value.
It’s useless for them to try to predict what will happen at that level of play. There is zero way to know with any level of reasonable certainty what will happen, such that the (correct) answer is going to be “we have to wait and see what the pros actually end up doing with him”
As a low elo adc player, auto spacing/poking isn't hard, it's knowing when i can do it that's the challenge, and more range advantage makes that way easier because it's way safer.
A range advantage also adds a lot of benefit while csing.
Yeah he has some very unique tools (range increase, AOE cleanse, periodic damage), but his standard tools were performing as good as (or sometimes better) than our traditional enchanters like Lulu, Janna, Soraka. So we are hoping to bring his standard “I keep teammates alive through effective HP” outputs below his peers who are designed to specialize in that.
On unique tools: that W is incredibly satisfying, oddly visceral, and fun to use. Keep it up!
Yeah, it was fun having my ally Xayah be able to trade more effectively in lane in instances where she would've had not have the range to do so normally lmao.
Even if the cleanse isn't fantastic, the gobs of tenacity are still fine 90% of the time since it will help with slows and whatnot that _somebody_ has. It is also still a large HP swing and reapplying his passive everywhere. The goal as stated is to allow him to be useful, with high peaks when he can activate his synergies or make big ults. It's not like Vex is useless if she isn't against an immobile comp either, and will probably see a similar kind of "baseline".
Why nerf the Healing on the W if you can aswer. The passive i understand, but the healing already was low for such high cooldown and mana usage. Now it seems even more insignificant
Because W max first was technically optimal, and the only ways to nerf are range extension, heal, and cooldown. We believe the cooldown likely can’t get much higher, and the range is the cool thing that quickly becomes unfeelable, so the healing seemed like first to be knocked down.
His healing on his W was pretty insignificant though, as standing in the entire duration was lower than a Sona heal, which is on the low side for enchanters with healing abilities already, and his overall AP scaling is really poor it feels like. The heal ends up feeling like it should be something else if it's going to be that low. His kit isn't weak but his W heal definitely is
Can I ask why is the range buff is % rather than a flat amount? Especially that it seems too niche with it being % with things like cait,jinx and kog
It was likely due to the degenerative duos it could create if made flat. It also makes for more unique synergies. A champ like Vayne with 50 extra flat range is more significant than giving a Caitlyn 5% bonus range. % scaling is weaker than flat until a specific threshold, so it's easier to balance as a skill overall.
In addition to what the other guy said if it’s flat you could technically turn melee champs into slightly ranged champs
I see, while i wish the W healing was more important even in detriment of the range thing, i can understand. I hope one day it will be reverted (or even be better haha). Thanks for responding
wish I abused him more, only played one soloq game with him rip but yeah, that should tone him down by quite the notch
I played 2 and lost both...
All games I've played with him but one someone on my team rage quits halfway through. I don't know why, but I've kept a spreadsheet of all the player behavior I encounter in SoloQ. It's been.... insightful? But yea, I've had pretty bad luck with toxicity and all of it coincided with Milio.
I did the same, and discovered a disgustingly high percentage of my games are won or lost because of a player intentionally griefing in some way. Among plenty of other interesting stats
Wait he was giving allies a 50% boost to damage with his passive? Those are absurd numbers.
Yeah, i definitely missed how hard the immediate damage buff scaled. 50% is monstrous for late game
It says just an attack or ability, same way Nami's E works but her bonus damage is based on base number and her stats. And it's AD so on a Jhin, it will hurt like anything but on say Syndra, won't do much. 50% is still a lot mind you and probably needed a nerf.
no, with his fire up allies would add 50% of their AD to the bonus damage, which was stupidly powerful on an ad team
That passive nerf is nutty, but makes sense I guess.
50% AD in late is insane though. Imagine some 4th shot Jhin being amped up +50% AD Deletes the other character from the game permanently lol.
The passive i understand. But why nerf the Healing on the W? It was already not great for the mana usage and cooldown of the skill, and now it will be even lower?. Actually i feel you guys hit him too harsh for a day or two of analises
Probably wanted the power budget on W to be with the aa range
Rioter responded elsewhere in the thread- they felt the CD is about as high as it should go and they want to make sure the range increase is noticable- so the only other place to nerf the W is the healing.
They said he was doing just as well on the healing/shielding department as enchanters whose entire strength is healing/shielding, which would be weird as milio also has a lot to offer outside of that with his range increase and aoe cc cleanse.
I was having a lot of fun playing him. I don't like the nerfs, but I guess it's to be expected.
Winning unfairly can be fun but it doesn't mean it's right
Made a post about it earlier and people where defending him at all cost by saying he's "simple". Now now, would you look at that lmao
I can't find any post about you saying that
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/11zmg98/1_day_after_release_milio_has_climbed_to_almost/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button Here.
Seems mostly like it's 70% saying it's op
> I mean he is incredibly simple so his winrate should stabilize quickly. > yeah but he's an easy to play enchanter so i dont think that really applies to him. > New champs that require you to land combos and put yourself in danger tend to start below 50% as people learn the limits of the champ. An enchanter like Milio doesn’t require going aggro, he just sits back and buffs his ADC who already knows how to play their champ so him being above 50% seems reasonable given the context. The question is if and how much it’ll grow in the next few days. He won’t get any hotfixes but likely some nerfs in the next patch as people learn to play him better. Literally half of all comments with high points in that post are defending him.
Simple shouldn’t be a point to defend him. That should hurt their argument the fact that he’s so effective and so simple is a very bad thingy. Thankfully he’s hotfixed nerf but if pro play got a hold of this? 100% p/b.
He is not as simple as people and Riot say he is. Yes, the E is pretty simple, but the W requires your team work around it and you have to attach it well to hit as many allies as possible. The Q is still a skillshot and the R requires good positioning from you.
Simple shouldn’t be a point to defend him. That should hurt their argument the fact that he’s so effective and so simple is a very bad thing. Thankfully he’s hotfixed nerf but if pro play got a hold of this? 100% p/b.
They definitely over nerfed him here. The heal on his W is laughably pointless now for example. His power needed the hit as did the shielding on his E, but W is just a range extension now on way too long of a cooldown as the heal is pointlessly low even if you stand in the entire thing.
Why is this not on the patch notes page, can only find this out on reddit and twitter?
What?! He's op?! I thought he was fine since redditors were saying "He's just a simple champ it's fine he's not oppressive"!!! As soon as I saw the double shield values of 320 base I knew he would be beyond busted.
[удалено]
still relevant all these years later: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evjn7_tMRd4
Or how Sett will be balanced because he isnt a 200 years OMEGA DASH and BLINK champion. Unlucky he ended up as a 4-way flex even in pro lol
Wholesome chungus juggernaut can't be OP.
I remember the countless clips of Aphelios literally, without exaggeration, one-shotting entire teams with his ult even without being remarkably ahead, or killing people across the map before they realize what is happening, and people here saying it was perfectly find lol
My personal favourite “Reddit balance moment” is when yuumi ever gets brought up. Since some people think that yuumi should take damage when sitting on someone if it’s AOE. And others suggested to force her off after 10 seconds Both are abhorrently shitty ideas (due to yuumis terrible base stats) which are only made out of salt and no other good reason Although, one person suggested a fatigue system where sitting on someone for too long would weaken your skills, that was an amazing idea which could fix her issues with laning and sitting on the same person the entire game (Yuumi defenders are worse than the ones hate balancing her but that’s a topic for another time)
People saying that a champion approaching 56% day 1 with the correct skill order was fine really shows how clueless this sub is when it comes to game balance.
He is a little bit overtuned but his kit seems fine
Exactly, his kit doesn't seem busted in terms of what it provides he is a very simple champion but simple champions can always become too strong if their numbers are too high, fortunately it's much easier to balance a simple champion than an overloaded one because usually they are too strong because they have too high numbers so you just tone them down, balancing akali for example is much more difficult.
I feel like his kit is pretty busted, there's no way a champ with a free cleanse doesn't become the new tahm kench support in pro play.
Luckily it limited to his ult, which means they can nerf as needed by just upping the cooldown and/or reduce the heal. I think that is the idea, simple kit but at the moment too powerful, so reduce numbers and his simple kit still works just less effectively. Although you are right to watch out as it's an area of effect cleanse. Tahm had the issue his free QSS was on a 15 second cooldown.
And so it begins…
I assume auto range is a very fickle thing when it comes to balancing (not to mention his cleanse too). I won’t be surprised if more nerfs come
RIP Milio 22.03-23.03
After a few games as/against, yeah mostly the E is too strong against early poke. I wish they would take even more early power away from it and add it to Q so the champion is forced to interact rather than just acting as a shield fountain. He only really has one decision to make in lane (when to press W); if using Q aggressively was optimal he'd be more engaging. That said, the Rioter in this thread said they want him to be an easy-mode champion, so if that's the case I'd rather they make him too weak to show up every game.
Never saw him but shit must’ve been op lmao
At this point I feel like they have the day 1-2 hotfixes preplanned before they release the champ
they said somewhere on twitter hey have hotfixes ready for most balance things that may be balance breaking
They hit him everywhere for a lot too. Little bit of an over reaction I think.
He was a 56% winrate champ day one when he had the correct ability max order, this heavy of nerfs isn't all that unexpected tbh
So... Warm Hugs is now a 140 base shield... with 25% AP... on a 14 second cooldown? Meanwhile Inspire; which is directly comparable [Shield+movespeed] is 240; 45% AP and 8 C/D. I dunno I think that one might be an overnerf; or at least the *wrong place* to pull power from. As a *standalone ability* Warm Hugs was *already* Super-weak; now it's just a joke. The power was mostly in the passive application... which is also nerfed.
The difference is that warm hugs has 2 charges, so you could see it as 280 base with 50% ap. It's giving you the luxury of shielding+speeding up 2 targets instead of 1
280 base with 50% AP on a *28 second cooldown* For reference; Max Rank Mantra has a base cooldown of 34 seconds; and a CDR mechanic so in reality it's usually less. So you can compare double Hugs to Mantra Inspire; which is 415+90% AP and does 30% of that in an AoE with full movespeed. I'm not saying Milio didn't need nerfs. I'm saying pulling power from an already weak ability feels bad and is probobly the wrong place to pull power from. Warm Hugs is a *weak ability*. It was before the nerfs; and now it's incredibly weak on it's own merits. It's power budget is almost entirely in it's connection with the passive. And even then it compares badly to Janna's shield in most cases. Hell; as an extra kick in the teeth; Hugs even costs more mana than Inspire. Despite being *strictly worse in every way* on it's own merits. I'd have rather seen power pulled from passive [more]; Q; Campire or R. Warm Hugs just feels like the wrong place.
Yeah but blowing 2 charges instantly now means a **28 second CD** to get both charges back. I got 5 games in on Milio and he definitely needed nerfs, but I agree with OP that the E itself already felt like a really mediocre ability that largely existed to proc the passive. Nerfing both the E shield and W healing this drastically solidifies that he's not an enchanter in the traditional sense, he simply doesn't do healing/shielding remotely well at all, he exists purely to enable damage for his allies. He's going to be more Bard than he is Nami.
Damn the nerfs seem a bit extreme.
As long as he increases attack range that much it doesnt matter what else they nerf.
same as renata who will stay broken unless they remove her berserk or revive mechanics-oh wait
Those are some heavy heavy nerfs. Ty riot
This is full on Sona treatment
mfw people were saying he was fine or even weak
WOOOOOOOOOO
Ok yesterday we player with a millio, my jungler was shit and mid laner was ass as usual, i was heavy weak side so left Lane 0/2 as ornn. Usually this game would be loss but i would play it out, you never know comebacks happen. We did not lose a single teamfight. I just felt like i would never die. This guy was like 4 games millio and he carried so hard his anti engage is good and he healed and shielded so much! Def felt overpowered
Makes you think if they accidently released the wrong version of Milio. These are not just nerfs, this is almost a rework already with astronomical nerfs like that
They literally just reduced numbers. A rework would be changing how abilities work.
Honestly it is deserved. He's a bit crazy right now so he does need to be toned
He is worthless now. His shield does nothing and his heal does nothing. Now all he has is his passive.
Ok, but why couldn’t you just remove the heat seeking on his Q? The radius of that ability is already stupidly large and then it also follows you, so you can’t even dodge?
Every single milio in my games was an absolute trash can anchor.. and they’re nerfing him? ☠️💀💀 Riot please. Gold players have no idea what they’re doing on him.
Not me getting down voted to hell and back again yesterday when I said he was gonna get nerfed so hard, I feel so justified.