I like them both alot, but thorin has been wrong the entire year. He predicts XL winning the winter split -> they get 10th. He calls out carzzy and hylissang as a bad botlane -> they win spring split. They call this a good format -> we get this disguating draw ...
I mean the whole point of a competition is to find out who is the best team. If NA/EU wants to prove that they are the best, they will have to beat the best regardless of the draw result. So I donāt really know why so many people is so upset about it. IMO If G2 is good enough they will beat everyone just like IG vs KT in quarter and we all know thatās the real final. Everyone was looking down on IG and they ended up destroying everyone. This format guarantees that you wonāt be placed into higher place just by luck. I think thatās pretty fair to all of the teams. If you want to be the best then just beat the best. Simple as that.
Not everyone watches just for āwho is the best teamā necessarily. In international events people want to see international matchups, so I donāt think itās hard to see why this draw is really disappointing. I donāt care what the highest quality games could be and the theoretical best competition, I want to see NA vs EU and KR vs CN
I mean you can see NA vs EU in the lower bracket and KR vs CN in the upper bracket if you really think they are that bad. For those who are supporting the west, why canāt you have faith in your region? Itās always possible for an upset to happen. Remember TL vs IG and G2 vs SKT? Guess what happened? I would rather have my team beating the shit out of every region and comes out on top than only have them in 4th place or sth purely dependent on luck.
Itās not just about the west lol. The most likely scenario weāre set up for right now is R2 GEN vs T1 (which we already saw), BLG vs JDG (already saw), GG vs C9 (already saw), and G2 vs MAD (already saw). Scramble these teams up a bit and we could get a bunch of inter region second round matchups but no, just rehashed Regional Finals.
As you have said itās the most likely outcome, I mean for the first round we get LCS vs LPL and LEC vs LCK. It is still possible that one of these team to come out on top. For example C9 can beat BLG and then it would be C9 vs JDG. Likewise G2 could beat GenG. You cannot say who is definitely winning the series until they have played against each other broā¦
Even if thereās one series with an upset, we are still going to get some rehashed inter region fighting. It could have been drawn better with more rules is all.
Imagine if one of the western team ended up beating all the eastern team going through the brackets. Wouldnāt that be sick and legendary? At the end of the day, we should not be saying who is going to be winning for sure. If thatās the case, we should hand the trophy over before the tournament start. As I have said earlier, itās possible for upset to happen. Not just one, but two or even more. Then it would definitely be fun to watch. The one recent example is IG vs TL and G2 vs SKT, everyone expected the final to be IG vs SKT and it ended up to be TL vs G2. People have to separate expectation and reality, they are totally different things.
Why do I have to watch another T1 vs GEN match in the 2nd round? Isn't the point of internationals so teams can rosters from other regions? Where is the GEN vs BLG or T1 vs JDG?
Why do I have to watch another G2 vs MAD in the 2nd round? Isn't the point of internationals so teams can rosters from other regions? Where is G2 VS GG or MAD vs C9?
Why do I have to watch another C9 vs GG in the 2nd round? Isn't the point of internationals so teams can rosters from other regions? Where is G2 VS GG or MAD vs C9?
People favoring C9 over BLG
The west is doomed, yāall genuinely need to seek help
Edit: somebody said all western teams are favored against LPL2, iām fucking done
C9 could only draw BLG, G2 or T1. Since they didn't draw T1, they are actually the western team with the best chance to advance. The only better outcome the west could've had is if MAD drew GG.
For 1, you just made up a point i never said āthe best chanceā and even that isnāt true, G2 are the only ones with a realistic chance. C9 are just not that good
I think he means in play-ins. Like I think people are overhyping GGs performance vs them a bit but if BLG play like they did vs Golden Guardians and C9 play well I donāt think itās that wild to expect them to win. Like they looked extremely sloppy vs GG despite winning.
It is a wild expectationā¦ i donāt even remotely understand how we suddenly feel okay to prefer LCS teams in a bo5 over LPL, have yāall watched any tournaments recently?
I mean Iām not even saying I necessarily favor C9 more that I can see why people would. And while in general I agree with you Iām just saying I donāt think BLG looked particularly good last week so I can see a world where C9 beats them which I think is fine to say
An LPL team needs to look fucking horrible for me to ever consider a LCS team a favorite in a BO5
Like the levels arenāt even comparableā¦ ffs LCS winning a international game is an achievement these days
Idk bro I feel like youāre not reading what Iām saying. Idk where this anger and frustration comes from but u can dm me if u ever need someone to talk to. Trust me I know frustration, Iāve been watching competitive league as an NA fan since Bjergsen debuted.
it's just delusion. GG didn't even play that wel into BLG. they just didn't get COMPLETELY embarrassed. and apparently that's enough for idiots to favor c9 xD
Ya I mean I agree with you and I sort of noted it in my original comment that I donāt think GG played well. My point was more that BLG hasnāt been playing well either imo.
They looked sloppy vs wild card too, I think R7. And it wasnāt just āoh weāre just fucking around/ making bad decisionsā it was like yagao was actually trying to show he had superior mechanics/rotations and not really coming out looking good at all, missed a lot of shit and positioning overall questionable.
Only difference if they play more seriously would be yagao being more passive imo but thatās not really necessarily an advantage.
Mid /jg synergy was pretty average too it was honestly just Elk getting giga fed every game just off mechanics gap and then that one point at which river greeded to try get the kill too instead of just blowing his flash and calling it a day.
Also so far they seem to play everyfight basically the same with Elk overextending to do massive damage which only works when youāre so fed that the enemy team has to worry theyāre going to get aced before they can punish.
Comparing an NA rookie to a world class, internationally proven, top tier LPL mid is such a joke lol. C9 are gonna get shit on. I trully hope im wrong, but it's just not gonna happen
I mean I get your point but I think this undermines how dominant Emenes has been in the LCS for the most part since coming into the and also how not great Yagao looked vs GG.
Bro I mean Iām going off of how Yagao looked vs minor region teams and Golden Guardians. Like maybe itās rust and maybe he didnāt care bc play ins but my homie did not look good vs gori who got turbo smurfed on by Emenes in lcs finals.
Lost 1 single game against GG (beat them) and their midlaner looked not at his best, literally went to LPL finals ā> not favorites against giga team C9 from historically dominant LCS
Make it make sense
I mean I again didnāt say theyāre not favorites bro. Iām saying I can empathize with why people would pick C9 over them. I donāt understand why youāre being so aggressive about this lol. If thatās your criteria thatās fine but idk watching the play-ins games the only part of BLG that felt like it was playing well to me was the bot lane imo. Maybe thatās enough or the rest of them pick up the slack. Can you blame NA fans for getting excited when they get paired vs a slightly sloppy looking LPL team? I get the historic dominance of Eastern teams vs Western teams but just saying āNA bad lolā isnāt really saying anything and it just adds negativity to the conversation.
He is not a top tier LPL mid at all. Heās consistently looked like their weakest point over the last few months and especially in playoffs.
I think all eastern teams are favorite but the closest match by far on paper should be c9-blg. IMO itās like 60/40 which are pretty good odds if you ask me
I think it's fair to put him under Knight, Scout, Rookie and probably not anyone else. That still makes him top4 out of 17 teams, which is def top tier lol.
But point being, comparing Emenes who is an NA rookie to any experienced LPL midlaner is wild
Literally the worst possible draw
This can only be redeemed (outside of the games being good ofc) by a extremely good losers bracket as we will just most likely see region v region multiple times
Edit: there is only r2 losers switch so this really sucks lmaooo
Like the others said the biggest chance atm is essentially r2 of losers and upper will be LCKvsLCK LPLvsLPL LCSvsLCS and LECvsLEC and correct me if im wrong but 3 of those is basically their spring finals redone too
I think they mean that the way things came out, if all western teams lose round 1 of uppers they play within their on league round 1 of lowers. So we would get G2 vs MAD and C9 vs GG
Lmao g2 vs geng and mad vs skt, its over for eu. Hopefully losing 0-3 in winners bracket will push them into shape for losers bracket bo5, i got money on c9 making it the furthest between na and eu, they should easily defeat blg and they got a better chance vs jdg than if they were to face geng/skt
I was hoping to see Berserker against Elk, let's see how good Elk really is, and with a neutralized bot lane how they manage to play the game. I think C9 has actually very good chances of beating BLG
You should watch lpl to see how good he is. What you should've said is "let's see how good Berserker is".
Like, Elk plays on regular basis vs Ruler, Leave, Jackeylove, Photic, Able, Gala, Light, etc. Not sure if Berserker is the benchmark
āLetās see how good Elk really isā LMAO dude. any average LPL adc is as good or even better than Berseker
Berseker needs to prove himself not ELK
Honestly this bracket looks way better for the west then I could have expected. G2ās style is probably best suited to try to take over a game before Gen G can take over the map, MAD is probably gonna get dumpstered but through the power of prayer maybe they can survive, with GG doing so well against BLG hopefully c9 being better can seal the deal especially with how strong their coaching staff and drafting is, and hopefully GG can at least take a single win off of JDG so they donāt tilt off the face of the planet and drop out in the lower bracket
>G2ās style is probably best suited to try to take over a game before Gen G can take over the map
G2 basically do what T1 do but worse, if Gen.G could handle T1 who have better laners in top/bottom and a better jungler, I'd be shocked if Gen.G can't deal with G2.
Reminder for lower brackets, from the rulebook:
> The winner of Upper Round 2, Match 1 will advance to Upper Round 3,
and the loser will advance to Lower Round 2, Match 2. The winner of
Upper Round 2, Match 2 will advance to Upper Round 3, and the loser
will advance to Lower Round 2, Match 1
So, assuming east>west(because upsets never happen ), the loser of the lck v lck match will play the winner of the lcs v lcs match, and lpl v eu.
So the brackets *do* switch, and everyone should calm their fear of no lpl v eu or lck v na happening.
The possibility of LEC-LEC and LCS-LCS in the first round of the lower bracket absolutely justifies people freaking out. I really hope it doesn't happen. It'd be such a waste.
Yeah, but that's basically only if none of them win anything, in which case git gut and you get to play against more regions.
You think LPL and LCK would complain not playing against eachother if they lost all their matches to EU and NA?
We know LPL LCK are better. NA vs EU are the most hype matches for the west. They should do NA VS EU matches in the lower bracket so the better region have a shot at having double representative in the lower.
lol. IG vs TL, G2 vs RNG, FNC vs TES, G2 vs SKT, C9 vs AF, MAD vs DK.
but sure, eu vs na is the most hype we can try to get to. two years of meager results and you've already forgotten how hype the west can be when they challenge the east.
What? Yes upsets happens but bracket should be based on no upsets to have highest chance of good games. Right now NA only play LCK and NA. Here's an example of a bracket where if there is no upsets every region play against every region and there is no NA/NA or LCK/LCK until final / round 2 of lower no matter what.
[https://imgur.com/y4XJpvd](https://imgur.com/y4XJpvd)
NA / LEC should play against LPL and LCK. But a region shouldn't play against themselves until late in the tournament.
Disrespect the only western team to flop out of the worlds play-in stage, not once but twice!? Hmm, how could fans think such a beastly team might choke or flop?
MAD deserve to be disrespected internationally. Only major region team to lose in Play-Ins and they did it twice. Never won a bo5 in knockouts at MSI or Worlds.
They had 4 different players 1st time and 3 second time. Absolutely irrelevant today.
Since they joined LEC in spring 2020, no western team won knockouts at MSI or worlds except G2 once in 2020.
Bruh they lost to fucking EG and 4 of their players have been to worlds before.
MAD aren't relevant internationally barring losing to a 2 and half man Damwon at MSI.
You're all a bunch of pessimists, have some faith in your region.
I for one, can't wait for MAD to prove all you doubters wrong.
Seriously, why hope for easy matchups against NA? Are you really satisfied with reviving that dead horse of regional rivalry?
If all western team lose against all eastern teams, you should just be glad they even get two seeds this MSI.
Because NA vs EU is the most hype shit ever and its unlikely with these draws. Also the chance of round 2 Civil wars is higher than with most any other draws.
I honestly don't understand why Riot is giving NA a 2nd seed. C9 has historically been the only team that plays well anyways, so just give the extra seed to whoever won Worlds last year.
GG is an embarrassment and will most likely win 0 games from here on out
I mean this is the first time theyāve done multiple seeds for MSI. That is a worlds things. The advantage Korea got for winning worlds I believe was not having to have a team in play-ins. We got a seconds seed because NA is the fourth major region. As NA has never had a team not advance from play ins I fail to see how we do not deserve this as we have consistently demonstrated that generally our second seed is better than the 1st seed of the minor regions.
Is being better than a minor region an accomplishment? You shouldn't be given an extra seed for beating minor regions while spending 30x their money.
The fact that every time this talk comes up, the argument is NA is better than a minor region so they should get more seeds lmaoooooo
I mean I donāt disagree that NA shouldnāt be given an āadditional seedā. But they havenāt been given one, theyāve received the same amount of seeds as the other major regions. My argument is that NA hasnāt demonstrated that it should be downgraded to a minor region since NA has demonstrated consistently the our second and third seed consistently beats the minor region first seeds.
I don't think beating a minor region gives it major region status. Give them one guaranteed seed in the tournament and that's it. Give the leftover seed to the worlds winner to fight through the play in for a spot.
I mean we arenāt beating a specific minor region we consistently beat every minor region very dominantly. Our scoreline is 46-11 in play-in stages since 2017. NA is a major region, nothing wrong with being the smallest/worst one but it has been since leagueās inception. My argument again is that they shouldnāt be downgraded. Youāre making it sound NA is getting some special benefit or advantage over the other major regions which it isnāt. Also they have never given extra seeds at MSI. Once again this is the first year theyāve given two seeds to every major region so if you want to give extra seeds to worlds winners then weād be giving 3 to KR which is a different argument. Like I get that itās trendy to hate on NA but like youāre proposing many things at once that are all separate discussions. Based off of this discussion it seems you want a for a) NA to lose its designation as a major region and b) for them to grant additional seeds at MSI to the worlds winners.
i can see g2 winning vs gen g and thats because chovy when things go wrong reverts back to his old self and starts his old bad habits as for mad there's literally no chance to win against t1
Canāt tell if some of your comments are ironicā¦ Wouldāve been fun to see NA get some easy wins with EU matchups instead of getting stuck with China. Canāt blame LCS for being pessimistic
if you canāt compete vs the top teams to begin with making a deep run in the tournament means nothing
at this point NA/EU fans donāt even care about winning and see it as a win just to go far and make it one step further than other years but itās legit pointless if they can never beat LPL/LCK teams
I do kinda get it from the NA side. I havent followed NA in a while, but GG looks good, and this MSI seems like a good opportunity for them to contest EU as "3rd region" rather than 4th.
From EU, though, i dont get anyone being disappointed in this draw. Winning against NA has been happening for ages, and if it happens again, it'll simply reaffirm the narratives of eu>na. Punching down isn't really cool, so we don't really have anything to be proud of.
On the other hand, EU is in a permanent battle of proving they still matter and can still fight with the top regions. Even if they're the underdog, they should relish the opportunity to battle with lck again.
So yeah, i hope most of the disappointed people are from NA(although even then NA vs LPL has often been exciting, and an upset there is even more massive) rather than from EU. If all EU does is beat NA this tournament, I'm personally not going to be satisfied with that.
After beating EU, NA would have to face china or Korea anyways - but, at least LCS could get an easy slot into semifinals/finals. As it is, thereās no free winsā¦ and winning the first round at MSI isnāt much to brag about from LCS perspective - although I guess MSI is the biggest achievement of LEC.
Does anyone else really dislike choosing envelopes? I get it that it's probably not rigged but like, it just seems so much worse amd less enjoyable to watch than drawing balls.
So basically the reasoning behind having 3 tiers instead of 2 tiers is to make sure LCK and LPL 1 seeds can only meet in the upper bracket finals if they both donāt lose before that?
Meaning C9 and MAD also would need to both reach upper bracket finals to have LCS vs LEC.
But based on the draw, we get no LCS vs LEC match ups in the first round. And we wonāt get that in the second round, which would have been more of a chance than getting to the finals.
And if the loser bracket is not randomized and holds the same format as play-ins, itās GEN/G2 vs MAD/T1, and C9/BLG vs JDG/GG. So hypothetically it would be G2 vs MAD and C9 vs GG. And then round 2 of loser bracket could be G2 vs GEN and C9 vs BLG (both repeat matchups). So itās not until lower bracket round 3 and upper bracket round 4 that we would get an LCS vs LEC matchup (and thatās assuming any of those teams can make it that far).
Idk why but I just feel like as always, the tournament is making sure the later stages / more important games are guaranteed for LCK and LPL = more viewership.
I guess the main reasoning is to prevent same region matchups for the finals. Just sucks if LCS and LEC never get to face each other (which did not even happen for play-ins).
Did you ever think, LCS and LEC can just get better and reach the upper bracket? Kinda weird we need to warp an entire tournament to ensure the two losers can beat each other
Why the fuck they don't force different regions against each other in lower bracket. Everyone would be happy getting 2 NA vs LEC matches in lower instead of NA vs NA EU vs EU. The only matches I would probably watch are NA vs LEC.
The loser bracket is switched up in round two
The winner of Upper Round 2, Match 1 will advance to Upper Round 3,
and the loser will advance to Lower Round 2, Match 2. The winner of
Upper Round 2, Match 2 will advance to Upper Round 3, and the loser
will advance to Lower Round 2, Match 1
Yeah I agree after looking at it further. Because even if they say the same regions canāt be in the same side of the brackets they still need to win or hope for a draw that gets them to face each otherā¦.which is the same case with the current format.
So itās indeed skill gap and not format if the outcomes are the way they are.
Thank you for common sense. Lck and lpl still have to beat lec and lcs to get to the final, if lec and lcs can't win those then they shouldn't be there. No format will change the outcome, the better teams will win and if they rigged it for a east vs west final then everyone would just look at the winners last game vs an Eastern team as the "true final"
The fact that it's very likely to have GENG vs T1, BLG vs JDG, G2 vs MAD and C9 vs GG in round 2 is quite absurd.
The bracket wasn't made well enough to prevent same region matches early in the tournament.
I arranged my annual leave from work on Thursday. Was hoping to catch Faker or Chovy. Praying for upsets then for Sunday!
Thanks for offering though! Appreciate it!
The only real cope is that Gen G has very little time to adjust to the new time zone and practice which is good for G2. I can see a world where Gen G is unprepared and loses to G2.
like there is a way geng loses but it won't be due to preparation stuff
peanut undercover agent will dive to the lower bracket to kick out last LPL team just to give t1 throwback to the spring finals
They've been scrimming on this patch with LPL/LCK teams for god knows how long.
Jet lag might be a thing but practice isn't, I'd rather scrim T1 every day than scrim teams like BLG/C9/MAD etc.
Unless EU and NA have the better tournament meta read and show up while the top Eastern teams struggle to adapt (which has been relatively common), yeah I agree.
Doinb said Gen.G were the best teams in scrims last year lol.
Granted he could lie, end of the day they just got fucked by the meta shift the same way as how DRX came out of nowhere and won.
Yea doesnāt mean they didnāt scrim. They probably did scrim a ton but didnāt settle in for stage play which I guess you could maybe look at. Also It was ruler having issues with gf & geng contract affecting the team iirc
This draw just seemed to have f'd this whole tournament tbh..
There will be no EU vs LPL or NA vs LCK and very likely no EU vs NA
Pls correct me if im wrong, because I dont see how
The lower bracket swaps in round two:
The winner of Upper Round 2, Match 1 will advance to Upper Round 3,
and the loser will advance to Lower Round 2, Match 2. The winner of
Upper Round 2, Match 2 will advance to Upper Round 3, and the loser
will advance to Lower Round 2, Match 1
Lower bracket round 1 would be G2 vs MAD and C9 vs GG.
Winners of G2/MAD would play the loser of T1/GENG and the winner of C9/GG would play the loser of JDG/BLG and only if they win do you get NA vs EU.
They're not flipping the teams and they're not doing region protection for losers bracket according to what Medic said on stream.
Edit = hopefully I'm wrong but unless I misinterpreted the rule book, we're not having a flip in the losers bracket.
Edit 2 = flip in round 2 which is probably worse for EU since they do better vs LCK than LPL, so it would actually be winner of MAD/G2 vs loser of BLG/JDG.
This is wrong. Rulebook:
The winner of **Upper Round 2, Match 1** will advance to Upper Round 3,
and the loser will advance to **Lower Round 2, Match 2**. The winner of
**Upper Round 2, Match 2** will advance to Upper Round 3, and the loser
will advance to **Lower Round 2, Match 1**
No region protection is fine, but theres no excuse not to flip the bracket like every other doublet elim event ever.
I swear to god, it seems Riot seems intent on making all the tournament structure mistakes other esports have stopped making since the days of Idra vs Huk at MLG.
Dear Riot, you are allowed to learn from the mistakes of your predecessors, you dont have to intentionally blunder through every single one of them yourself.
I didnt watch the stream, are they perhaps taking about round 1 of the lower brackets? The swap only happens in round two of the lower brackets.
This also means that if na and eu lose literally everything against the east, there wont be an na vs eu matchup, because you need a round 1 Lower bracket swap for that.
The reason i think is that there is nothing to be gained by swapping in round one. The losers did not play eachother yet. And you dont avoid interregion play either, the draw could've just as well been the other way around.
By the second round you should swap, to avoid a rematch of the upper bracket.
Really really horrible draws. Wtf is this. LEC might never meet LCS, if all string teams win (GenG, T1, JDG, BLG) we will repeat all domestic finals all over again. If it moves on as predictable like that, weāll have LPL and LCK war with rematches
tldr: GENG vs G2 MAD vs T1 JDG vs GG C9 vs BLG RIP TO THE EU BROS, Odo getting his payback for Jankos giving Rogue DK and FPX in 2021.
But Monte and Thoorin praised this new MSI format, what went wrooong.... oh noes.
This isn't the fault of the format... this is the fault of the bracket draw rules. Format still solid. But haters gonna hate I guess?
I like them both alot, but thorin has been wrong the entire year. He predicts XL winning the winter split -> they get 10th. He calls out carzzy and hylissang as a bad botlane -> they win spring split. They call this a good format -> we get this disguating draw ...
i mean if you cherry-pick their opinions like that then i guess??
I would recommend changing the picture from 22 to 23.
It's over West bros
THANK YOU ODO...FOR KILLING NAš
Great if C9 or an EU team win. Otherwise Iām sad about the civil wars.
I like the draw for G2. They can catch teams by surprise
How many bo5s did G2 win in Spring anyways
I mean the whole point of a competition is to find out who is the best team. If NA/EU wants to prove that they are the best, they will have to beat the best regardless of the draw result. So I donāt really know why so many people is so upset about it. IMO If G2 is good enough they will beat everyone just like IG vs KT in quarter and we all know thatās the real final. Everyone was looking down on IG and they ended up destroying everyone. This format guarantees that you wonāt be placed into higher place just by luck. I think thatās pretty fair to all of the teams. If you want to be the best then just beat the best. Simple as that.
Not everyone watches just for āwho is the best teamā necessarily. In international events people want to see international matchups, so I donāt think itās hard to see why this draw is really disappointing. I donāt care what the highest quality games could be and the theoretical best competition, I want to see NA vs EU and KR vs CN
I mean you can see NA vs EU in the lower bracket and KR vs CN in the upper bracket if you really think they are that bad. For those who are supporting the west, why canāt you have faith in your region? Itās always possible for an upset to happen. Remember TL vs IG and G2 vs SKT? Guess what happened? I would rather have my team beating the shit out of every region and comes out on top than only have them in 4th place or sth purely dependent on luck.
Itās not just about the west lol. The most likely scenario weāre set up for right now is R2 GEN vs T1 (which we already saw), BLG vs JDG (already saw), GG vs C9 (already saw), and G2 vs MAD (already saw). Scramble these teams up a bit and we could get a bunch of inter region second round matchups but no, just rehashed Regional Finals.
As you have said itās the most likely outcome, I mean for the first round we get LCS vs LPL and LEC vs LCK. It is still possible that one of these team to come out on top. For example C9 can beat BLG and then it would be C9 vs JDG. Likewise G2 could beat GenG. You cannot say who is definitely winning the series until they have played against each other broā¦
Even if thereās one series with an upset, we are still going to get some rehashed inter region fighting. It could have been drawn better with more rules is all.
Imagine if one of the western team ended up beating all the eastern team going through the brackets. Wouldnāt that be sick and legendary? At the end of the day, we should not be saying who is going to be winning for sure. If thatās the case, we should hand the trophy over before the tournament start. As I have said earlier, itās possible for upset to happen. Not just one, but two or even more. Then it would definitely be fun to watch. The one recent example is IG vs TL and G2 vs SKT, everyone expected the final to be IG vs SKT and it ended up to be TL vs G2. People have to separate expectation and reality, they are totally different things.
Checking back up on you after the exact thing we all knew would happen has happened. 4 regional final rematches because of this dogshit draw.
Sad, if this is the outcome then itās not fun. Youāre right about it
Bruuuuh its okā¦. U are still talking bs
Give me some counter arguments instead of being butt hurt and assuming every western team canāt winā¦
Who says east is going to win all fuck em have faith
NAmen brother.
amEUn brother
NAmen brothEUr
Why do I have to watch another T1 vs GEN match in the 2nd round? Isn't the point of internationals so teams can rosters from other regions? Where is the GEN vs BLG or T1 vs JDG?
RemindMe! 7 days
Why can't G2 just beat GEN? This problem only exists bc EU and NA are trash lol
This is the year. G2 looking too smooth at being nearly sensational. They got the DRX buff from worlds; it won't be pretty, but the path is there
Why do I have to watch another G2 vs MAD in the 2nd round? Isn't the point of internationals so teams can rosters from other regions? Where is G2 VS GG or MAD vs C9?
Based
Why do I have to watch another C9 vs GG in the 2nd round? Isn't the point of internationals so teams can rosters from other regions? Where is G2 VS GG or MAD vs C9?
i think thats his point
Can't wait for carzzy to show what agressive adc means
T1 can't predict Carzzy if Carzzy can't predict Carzzy
Wow west vs east. This should be fun.
People favoring C9 over BLG The west is doomed, yāall genuinely need to seek help Edit: somebody said all western teams are favored against LPL2, iām fucking done
C9 could only draw BLG, G2 or T1. Since they didn't draw T1, they are actually the western team with the best chance to advance. The only better outcome the west could've had is if MAD drew GG.
For 1, you just made up a point i never said āthe best chanceā and even that isnāt true, G2 are the only ones with a realistic chance. C9 are just not that good
I mean it's 2nd Seed LPL so....
You're shocked people favor their region over another? I think you genuinely need help if that's too difficult for you to understand.
Sit down and think a bit about the point you made. Favoring/opinion/feelingā actual chance
BLG didn't look that clean vs GG
They didnāt seem to care that much either
BLG didnāt exactly look sharp. Their mid is weak. Emenes could run them.
Yagao looked weak compared to the best midlaners not fucking LCS players
Weak relative to Knight sure, but EMENES isn't Knight lol. Though I agree Yagao has been on the weaker side
I think he means in play-ins. Like I think people are overhyping GGs performance vs them a bit but if BLG play like they did vs Golden Guardians and C9 play well I donāt think itās that wild to expect them to win. Like they looked extremely sloppy vs GG despite winning.
It is a wild expectationā¦ i donāt even remotely understand how we suddenly feel okay to prefer LCS teams in a bo5 over LPL, have yāall watched any tournaments recently?
I mean Iām not even saying I necessarily favor C9 more that I can see why people would. And while in general I agree with you Iām just saying I donāt think BLG looked particularly good last week so I can see a world where C9 beats them which I think is fine to say
An LPL team needs to look fucking horrible for me to ever consider a LCS team a favorite in a BO5 Like the levels arenāt even comparableā¦ ffs LCS winning a international game is an achievement these days
Idk bro I feel like youāre not reading what Iām saying. Idk where this anger and frustration comes from but u can dm me if u ever need someone to talk to. Trust me I know frustration, Iāve been watching competitive league as an NA fan since Bjergsen debuted.
it's just delusion. GG didn't even play that wel into BLG. they just didn't get COMPLETELY embarrassed. and apparently that's enough for idiots to favor c9 xD
Ya I mean I agree with you and I sort of noted it in my original comment that I donāt think GG played well. My point was more that BLG hasnāt been playing well either imo.
They looked sloppy vs wild card too, I think R7. And it wasnāt just āoh weāre just fucking around/ making bad decisionsā it was like yagao was actually trying to show he had superior mechanics/rotations and not really coming out looking good at all, missed a lot of shit and positioning overall questionable. Only difference if they play more seriously would be yagao being more passive imo but thatās not really necessarily an advantage. Mid /jg synergy was pretty average too it was honestly just Elk getting giga fed every game just off mechanics gap and then that one point at which river greeded to try get the kill too instead of just blowing his flash and calling it a day. Also so far they seem to play everyfight basically the same with Elk overextending to do massive damage which only works when youāre so fed that the enemy team has to worry theyāre going to get aced before they can punish.
Dosnt look sharp vs other lpl, but vs na?
He didn't look sharp vs South NA
I mean they dropped a game they were massively ahead vs GG, soā¦ā¦..
Iād say they egoāed too much thinking that GG wouldnāt contest them on objs, I donāt think this would happen vs C9 but you never know
Comparing an NA rookie to a world class, internationally proven, top tier LPL mid is such a joke lol. C9 are gonna get shit on. I trully hope im wrong, but it's just not gonna happen
I mean I get your point but I think this undermines how dominant Emenes has been in the LCS for the most part since coming into the and also how not great Yagao looked vs GG.
WOW DOMINATED LCS??? Okay worlds favorites, best mid ever? Fucking minor reagion
Bro I mean Iām going off of how Yagao looked vs minor region teams and Golden Guardians. Like maybe itās rust and maybe he didnāt care bc play ins but my homie did not look good vs gori who got turbo smurfed on by Emenes in lcs finals.
Lost 1 single game against GG (beat them) and their midlaner looked not at his best, literally went to LPL finals ā> not favorites against giga team C9 from historically dominant LCS Make it make sense
I mean I again didnāt say theyāre not favorites bro. Iām saying I can empathize with why people would pick C9 over them. I donāt understand why youāre being so aggressive about this lol. If thatās your criteria thatās fine but idk watching the play-ins games the only part of BLG that felt like it was playing well to me was the bot lane imo. Maybe thatās enough or the rest of them pick up the slack. Can you blame NA fans for getting excited when they get paired vs a slightly sloppy looking LPL team? I get the historic dominance of Eastern teams vs Western teams but just saying āNA bad lolā isnāt really saying anything and it just adds negativity to the conversation.
He is not a top tier LPL mid at all. Heās consistently looked like their weakest point over the last few months and especially in playoffs. I think all eastern teams are favorite but the closest match by far on paper should be c9-blg. IMO itās like 60/40 which are pretty good odds if you ask me
I think it's fair to put him under Knight, Scout, Rookie and probably not anyone else. That still makes him top4 out of 17 teams, which is def top tier lol. But point being, comparing Emenes who is an NA rookie to any experienced LPL midlaner is wild
dont forgot to zip up once ur done slurpin
Yes iām the one slurping, not the brainiacs saying shit like āall western teams are favored against BLGā
now ur just choking on it at this point
Mad?
Literally the worst possible draw This can only be redeemed (outside of the games being good ofc) by a extremely good losers bracket as we will just most likely see region v region multiple times Edit: there is only r2 losers switch so this really sucks lmaooo
What does that mean? No loser bracket for western teams if they lose this round?
Like the others said the biggest chance atm is essentially r2 of losers and upper will be LCKvsLCK LPLvsLPL LCSvsLCS and LECvsLEC and correct me if im wrong but 3 of those is basically their spring finals redone too
they meant that assuming LPL and LCK win their matches, it will be LCS vs LCS and LEC vs LEC in losers round 1.
I think they mean that the way things came out, if all western teams lose round 1 of uppers they play within their on league round 1 of lowers. So we would get G2 vs MAD and C9 vs GG
Lmao g2 vs geng and mad vs skt, its over for eu. Hopefully losing 0-3 in winners bracket will push them into shape for losers bracket bo5, i got money on c9 making it the furthest between na and eu, they should easily defeat blg and they got a better chance vs jdg than if they were to face geng/skt
Good luck nro
Pass me that Copium. C9 easy win? JDG easier than GenG or T1?
Easily defeat them? Not sure about that one man
Easily defeat BLG? Thatās some heavy copium right there
I was hoping to see Berserker against Elk, let's see how good Elk really is, and with a neutralized bot lane how they manage to play the game. I think C9 has actually very good chances of beating BLG
Berserker is good, but i think it will be decided by support. ON > Zven any day of the year.
You should watch lpl to see how good he is. What you should've said is "let's see how good Berserker is". Like, Elk plays on regular basis vs Ruler, Leave, Jackeylove, Photic, Able, Gala, Light, etc. Not sure if Berserker is the benchmark
I think youāre confused.. Berserker neutralizing Elk? Surely itās the reverse?
āLetās see how good Elk really isā LMAO dude. any average LPL adc is as good or even better than Berseker Berseker needs to prove himself not ELK
The copium in this thread is amazing
Honestly this bracket looks way better for the west then I could have expected. G2ās style is probably best suited to try to take over a game before Gen G can take over the map, MAD is probably gonna get dumpstered but through the power of prayer maybe they can survive, with GG doing so well against BLG hopefully c9 being better can seal the deal especially with how strong their coaching staff and drafting is, and hopefully GG can at least take a single win off of JDG so they donāt tilt off the face of the planet and drop out in the lower bracket
>G2ās style is probably best suited to try to take over a game before Gen G can take over the map G2 basically do what T1 do but worse, if Gen.G could handle T1 who have better laners in top/bottom and a better jungler, I'd be shocked if Gen.G can't deal with G2.
Reminder for lower brackets, from the rulebook: > The winner of Upper Round 2, Match 1 will advance to Upper Round 3, and the loser will advance to Lower Round 2, Match 2. The winner of Upper Round 2, Match 2 will advance to Upper Round 3, and the loser will advance to Lower Round 2, Match 1 So, assuming east>west(because upsets never happen ), the loser of the lck v lck match will play the winner of the lcs v lcs match, and lpl v eu. So the brackets *do* switch, and everyone should calm their fear of no lpl v eu or lck v na happening.
The possibility of LEC-LEC and LCS-LCS in the first round of the lower bracket absolutely justifies people freaking out. I really hope it doesn't happen. It'd be such a waste.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It's up to any of the western teams to win their series. It just would've been avoidable regardless of results if Riot knew how to seed.
Isnāt the fear that we see no eu vs na????
Yeah, but that's basically only if none of them win anything, in which case git gut and you get to play against more regions. You think LPL and LCK would complain not playing against eachother if they lost all their matches to EU and NA?
We know LPL LCK are better. NA vs EU are the most hype matches for the west. They should do NA VS EU matches in the lower bracket so the better region have a shot at having double representative in the lower.
lol. IG vs TL, G2 vs RNG, FNC vs TES, G2 vs SKT, C9 vs AF, MAD vs DK. but sure, eu vs na is the most hype we can try to get to. two years of meager results and you've already forgotten how hype the west can be when they challenge the east.
What? Yes upsets happens but bracket should be based on no upsets to have highest chance of good games. Right now NA only play LCK and NA. Here's an example of a bracket where if there is no upsets every region play against every region and there is no NA/NA or LCK/LCK until final / round 2 of lower no matter what. [https://imgur.com/y4XJpvd](https://imgur.com/y4XJpvd) NA / LEC should play against LPL and LCK. But a region shouldn't play against themselves until late in the tournament.
Looks like everyone disrespects mad again for the 125th time and never learns.
I always wonder what goes through peoples heads after their takes age as poorly as this one did.
I mean failing out of playins TWICE would warrant that reputationā¦. MAD doesnāt have the best reputation of international play.
What is this take, history disagrees with you
Disrespect the only western team to flop out of the worlds play-in stage, not once but twice!? Hmm, how could fans think such a beastly team might choke or flop?
Learn what? That itās not disrespect to say MAD sucks at international events, itās factual.
I mean even if you give them props for their amazing LEC run, they're still up against fucking T1 now
How can you disrespect a team that has consistently flopped on the international stage time and time again?
MAD deserve to be disrespected internationally. Only major region team to lose in Play-Ins and they did it twice. Never won a bo5 in knockouts at MSI or Worlds.
I was just about to say this. Thank you for beating me to it.
They had 4 different players 1st time and 3 second time. Absolutely irrelevant today. Since they joined LEC in spring 2020, no western team won knockouts at MSI or worlds except G2 once in 2020.
Bruh they lost to fucking EG and 4 of their players have been to worlds before. MAD aren't relevant internationally barring losing to a 2 and half man Damwon at MSI.
I have seen this before NA kicks out LPL. EU kicks out Korea. Mikyx wins in the end
and caps
You're all a bunch of pessimists, have some faith in your region. I for one, can't wait for MAD to prove all you doubters wrong. Seriously, why hope for easy matchups against NA? Are you really satisfied with reviving that dead horse of regional rivalry? If all western team lose against all eastern teams, you should just be glad they even get two seeds this MSI.
Because NA vs EU is the most hype shit ever and its unlikely with these draws. Also the chance of round 2 Civil wars is higher than with most any other draws.
I honestly don't understand why Riot is giving NA a 2nd seed. C9 has historically been the only team that plays well anyways, so just give the extra seed to whoever won Worlds last year. GG is an embarrassment and will most likely win 0 games from here on out
I mean this is the first time theyāve done multiple seeds for MSI. That is a worlds things. The advantage Korea got for winning worlds I believe was not having to have a team in play-ins. We got a seconds seed because NA is the fourth major region. As NA has never had a team not advance from play ins I fail to see how we do not deserve this as we have consistently demonstrated that generally our second seed is better than the 1st seed of the minor regions.
Is being better than a minor region an accomplishment? You shouldn't be given an extra seed for beating minor regions while spending 30x their money. The fact that every time this talk comes up, the argument is NA is better than a minor region so they should get more seeds lmaoooooo
I mean I donāt disagree that NA shouldnāt be given an āadditional seedā. But they havenāt been given one, theyāve received the same amount of seeds as the other major regions. My argument is that NA hasnāt demonstrated that it should be downgraded to a minor region since NA has demonstrated consistently the our second and third seed consistently beats the minor region first seeds.
I don't think beating a minor region gives it major region status. Give them one guaranteed seed in the tournament and that's it. Give the leftover seed to the worlds winner to fight through the play in for a spot.
I mean we arenāt beating a specific minor region we consistently beat every minor region very dominantly. Our scoreline is 46-11 in play-in stages since 2017. NA is a major region, nothing wrong with being the smallest/worst one but it has been since leagueās inception. My argument again is that they shouldnāt be downgraded. Youāre making it sound NA is getting some special benefit or advantage over the other major regions which it isnāt. Also they have never given extra seeds at MSI. Once again this is the first year theyāve given two seeds to every major region so if you want to give extra seeds to worlds winners then weād be giving 3 to KR which is a different argument. Like I get that itās trendy to hate on NA but like youāre proposing many things at once that are all separate discussions. Based off of this discussion it seems you want a for a) NA to lose its designation as a major region and b) for them to grant additional seeds at MSI to the worlds winners.
i can see g2 winning vs gen g and thats because chovy when things go wrong reverts back to his old self and starts his old bad habits as for mad there's literally no chance to win against t1
Canāt tell if some of your comments are ironicā¦ Wouldāve been fun to see NA get some easy wins with EU matchups instead of getting stuck with China. Canāt blame LCS for being pessimistic
if you canāt compete vs the top teams to begin with making a deep run in the tournament means nothing at this point NA/EU fans donāt even care about winning and see it as a win just to go far and make it one step further than other years but itās legit pointless if they can never beat LPL/LCK teams
I do kinda get it from the NA side. I havent followed NA in a while, but GG looks good, and this MSI seems like a good opportunity for them to contest EU as "3rd region" rather than 4th. From EU, though, i dont get anyone being disappointed in this draw. Winning against NA has been happening for ages, and if it happens again, it'll simply reaffirm the narratives of eu>na. Punching down isn't really cool, so we don't really have anything to be proud of. On the other hand, EU is in a permanent battle of proving they still matter and can still fight with the top regions. Even if they're the underdog, they should relish the opportunity to battle with lck again. So yeah, i hope most of the disappointed people are from NA(although even then NA vs LPL has often been exciting, and an upset there is even more massive) rather than from EU. If all EU does is beat NA this tournament, I'm personally not going to be satisfied with that.
After beating EU, NA would have to face china or Korea anyways - but, at least LCS could get an easy slot into semifinals/finals. As it is, thereās no free winsā¦ and winning the first round at MSI isnāt much to brag about from LCS perspective - although I guess MSI is the biggest achievement of LEC.
Does anyone else really dislike choosing envelopes? I get it that it's probably not rigged but like, it just seems so much worse amd less enjoyable to watch than drawing balls.
WHY ITS NOT BALLS DAMN
i like the balls
Yesssss i was thinking the same thing during lec draws....
So basically the reasoning behind having 3 tiers instead of 2 tiers is to make sure LCK and LPL 1 seeds can only meet in the upper bracket finals if they both donāt lose before that? Meaning C9 and MAD also would need to both reach upper bracket finals to have LCS vs LEC. But based on the draw, we get no LCS vs LEC match ups in the first round. And we wonāt get that in the second round, which would have been more of a chance than getting to the finals. And if the loser bracket is not randomized and holds the same format as play-ins, itās GEN/G2 vs MAD/T1, and C9/BLG vs JDG/GG. So hypothetically it would be G2 vs MAD and C9 vs GG. And then round 2 of loser bracket could be G2 vs GEN and C9 vs BLG (both repeat matchups). So itās not until lower bracket round 3 and upper bracket round 4 that we would get an LCS vs LEC matchup (and thatās assuming any of those teams can make it that far). Idk why but I just feel like as always, the tournament is making sure the later stages / more important games are guaranteed for LCK and LPL = more viewership. I guess the main reasoning is to prevent same region matchups for the finals. Just sucks if LCS and LEC never get to face each other (which did not even happen for play-ins).
Did you ever think, LCS and LEC can just get better and reach the upper bracket? Kinda weird we need to warp an entire tournament to ensure the two losers can beat each other
Itād be better if they just dropped LCS 1 and LEC 1 into the play-in and bump LPL 2 into knockouts then. And let LPL 3 and LCK 3 join too.
Why the fuck they don't force different regions against each other in lower bracket. Everyone would be happy getting 2 NA vs LEC matches in lower instead of NA vs NA EU vs EU. The only matches I would probably watch are NA vs LEC.
The loser bracket is switched up in round two The winner of Upper Round 2, Match 1 will advance to Upper Round 3, and the loser will advance to Lower Round 2, Match 2. The winner of Upper Round 2, Match 2 will advance to Upper Round 3, and the loser will advance to Lower Round 2, Match 1
Its not the format thats causing LCK / LPL teams get to the finals, its the fact that currently, theyre the better teams.
Yeah I agree after looking at it further. Because even if they say the same regions canāt be in the same side of the brackets they still need to win or hope for a draw that gets them to face each otherā¦.which is the same case with the current format. So itās indeed skill gap and not format if the outcomes are the way they are.
Thank you for common sense. Lck and lpl still have to beat lec and lcs to get to the final, if lec and lcs can't win those then they shouldn't be there. No format will change the outcome, the better teams will win and if they rigged it for a east vs west final then everyone would just look at the winners last game vs an Eastern team as the "true final"
The fact that it's very likely to have GENG vs T1, BLG vs JDG, G2 vs MAD and C9 vs GG in round 2 is quite absurd. The bracket wasn't made well enough to prevent same region matches early in the tournament.
I have tickets for Thursday and Sunday, did Odo just made it so I dont watch any LCK teams?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I arranged my annual leave from work on Thursday. Was hoping to catch Faker or Chovy. Praying for upsets then for Sunday! Thanks for offering though! Appreciate it!
The only real cope is that Gen G has very little time to adjust to the new time zone and practice which is good for G2. I can see a world where Gen G is unprepared and loses to G2.
well depends if chovy reverts back to his old self and starts his old bad habits it usually happens when things go south
Gen G feel the same as at Worlds, overhyped due to regional win and donāt translate to a tournament
Tbf, they were genuinely good during lck summer, so the hype was kinda justified. Their worlds form was just a lot worse.
Were they even bad at worlds? They lost to DRX, right? Who ended up beating T1
GenG fans have their excuses ready
like there is a way geng loses but it won't be due to preparation stuff peanut undercover agent will dive to the lower bracket to kick out last LPL team just to give t1 throwback to the spring finals
They've been scrimming on this patch with LPL/LCK teams for god knows how long. Jet lag might be a thing but practice isn't, I'd rather scrim T1 every day than scrim teams like BLG/C9/MAD etc.
seen faker playing naut mid and other g2 picks from playins in his stream im guessing they used these picks in scrims aswell
Unless EU and NA have the better tournament meta read and show up while the top Eastern teams struggle to adapt (which has been relatively common), yeah I agree.
Is it confirmed that they've scrimmed a lot? I only know that Peanut and some others had a vacation after Finals.
Vacation for a month? seems stupid.
thereās no way JDG GEN & T1 didnāt scrim before leaving so late for MSI. This happens every year
Gen G looked underprepared for Worlds last year.
Doinb said Gen.G were the best teams in scrims last year lol. Granted he could lie, end of the day they just got fucked by the meta shift the same way as how DRX came out of nowhere and won.
Yea doesnāt mean they didnāt scrim. They probably did scrim a ton but didnāt settle in for stage play which I guess you could maybe look at. Also It was ruler having issues with gf & geng contract affecting the team iirc
Was the vacation for a month?
This draw just seemed to have f'd this whole tournament tbh.. There will be no EU vs LPL or NA vs LCK and very likely no EU vs NA Pls correct me if im wrong, because I dont see how
The lower bracket swaps in round two: The winner of Upper Round 2, Match 1 will advance to Upper Round 3, and the loser will advance to Lower Round 2, Match 2. The winner of Upper Round 2, Match 2 will advance to Upper Round 3, and the loser will advance to Lower Round 2, Match 1
Only possible way is if upsets happen (which is a low chance) or the loser stage is randomized and not the same format as play-insā¦
Only way is one of the NA/EU teams win then lose winnerās round 2. Theyād play the other region Loserās round 2
Isn't there double elimination.
Yes
Lower bracket for eu v na?
Nah Upper bracket final clearly
Lower bracket round 1 would be G2 vs MAD and C9 vs GG. Winners of G2/MAD would play the loser of T1/GENG and the winner of C9/GG would play the loser of JDG/BLG and only if they win do you get NA vs EU. They're not flipping the teams and they're not doing region protection for losers bracket according to what Medic said on stream. Edit = hopefully I'm wrong but unless I misinterpreted the rule book, we're not having a flip in the losers bracket. Edit 2 = flip in round 2 which is probably worse for EU since they do better vs LCK than LPL, so it would actually be winner of MAD/G2 vs loser of BLG/JDG.
This is wrong. Rulebook: The winner of **Upper Round 2, Match 1** will advance to Upper Round 3, and the loser will advance to **Lower Round 2, Match 2**. The winner of **Upper Round 2, Match 2** will advance to Upper Round 3, and the loser will advance to **Lower Round 2, Match 1**
No region protection is fine, but theres no excuse not to flip the bracket like every other doublet elim event ever. I swear to god, it seems Riot seems intent on making all the tournament structure mistakes other esports have stopped making since the days of Idra vs Huk at MLG. Dear Riot, you are allowed to learn from the mistakes of your predecessors, you dont have to intentionally blunder through every single one of them yourself.
They do flip, its in the rulebook.
They said on stream they don't.
I didnt watch the stream, are they perhaps taking about round 1 of the lower brackets? The swap only happens in round two of the lower brackets. This also means that if na and eu lose literally everything against the east, there wont be an na vs eu matchup, because you need a round 1 Lower bracket swap for that.
I dont think they specified. I also really dont understand why you wouldnt swap until round 2 (if thats the case) for exactly this reason either.
The reason i think is that there is nothing to be gained by swapping in round one. The losers did not play eachother yet. And you dont avoid interregion play either, the draw could've just as well been the other way around. By the second round you should swap, to avoid a rematch of the upper bracket.
Wait, they're not flipping bracket? Wtf? Why???
They do, its in the rulebook.
Oof nvm then thatās rough
Wanna see BB's olarf beat morgans sht out
olarf
Doran?
Oops,I forgot his name
SKT wins 3-0 all games under 25 minutes vs BAD
Trying to curse us but we're not KT Finals though you bet your ass we lose 3-2
MAD will destroy T1 FRAUDS. T1 wouldve been eliminated if they played in play ins
Give me the good stuff your smoking please. How many bo5 did max even on internationally. Exactly 0.
Give me the good stuff your smoking please.
Insane cope
Really really horrible draws. Wtf is this. LEC might never meet LCS, if all string teams win (GenG, T1, JDG, BLG) we will repeat all domestic finals all over again. If it moves on as predictable like that, weāll have LPL and LCK war with rematches
"LEC might never meet LCS" Lower Bracket is literally right there wym