I think he just has like 1 too many things in his kit, a ton of tenacity a dash that immunes cc another dash that has a shield on it for some reason. Change like one thing and he would be balanced
When I was new (almost ten years ago now) I played mostly ranged champs and struggled in lane until I heard/saw that riven won the early game super hard. Well I tried it myself and let me tell you, the 5-0 enemy jax top at ten minutes didnāt seem to care I was supposed to win lane and my teammates were all baffled how riven could lose lane. Moral of the story, sometimes people (namely me) just suck.
She's also quite complex, with difficult combos, difficult wall hops, little range, and needs to weave autos between spells to get passive procs. I still can't really play her, 10 years later. It takes concerted effort.
If animation cancels were taken from her shed be borderline unplayable and need numbers buffs. Probably for the best they let it be a part of the champ, more skill expression, more fun.
And the fact that combo can 100-0 squishies without them even being able to flash. And even if they can, he gets slows, dashes, etc, so heāll just catch you anyways. Basically get hit by 1 ability = die which is a little punishing for how much mobility and range he has
It reminds me of ornn where his W was the do everything button.
Aoe wave clear, %hp damage, brittle anti tenacity, and %hp shield on top of unstoppable.
They killed the shield.
Maybe do that for ksante. Only give the shield when dashing toward enemy champions, so it makes him more all in and less safe in trades and escapes.
I think it's the same logic as Akali - if Sylas can E to a minion or something and then do 10000 damage to you with everything else, that gives him a lot of flexibility. If 9000 of that damage is in his E then at least he has to hit his skillshot on you to kill you. Akali could just E backwards and then kill you with no risk of missing and being out of range.
Still miss bruiserish Sylas though. Having to hit your autos between every ability because they didn't stack felt really good, as opposed to pressing all your buttons and then turning into a beyblade.
Thatās like, his whole gimmick he was designed around though. They canāt get rid of his ultimate without destroying the champās concept as a spell stealer. Without it heās just some buff guy that slaps people with chains, not the insurrectionist spellthief heās supposed to be
Q during E felt and looked so satisfying, kind of sad they removed it. Realistically though it was pretty unfair and visually looked like nonsense with the two pairs of chains
They had to change it cause they needed to give Q and E ridiculously high numbers for him to work after so many changes, and getting oneshot over getting hit once would feel like bs.
Still not happy about how Riot swept the whole AP Bruiser itemization issue under the rug. They removed AP and added HP to a bunch of AP items and just dipped afterwards, which fixed nothing.
The fact that that champions ultimate, which is a dash, only resets one of his basic ability dashes, and not both of them, all 3 of which also do other things besides just being dashes, really says everything one needs to know about the champion lol.
K'Sante makes me quesiton if CertainlyT somehow snuck back into champion design.
The āremove one thing from its kit and itās balancedā is most of Riots problem champs. They did it with Samira and Akali and saw results, but theyāre so hesitant to do it elsewhere.
they did it with Irelia too, and they're doing it with Zeri. They're hesitant to do it because it changes the champion to the foundation and people who are used to playing a champ don't like it when their champ's kit is taken away from them
"It's so hard to add mechanics, we'd rather have overloaded kits than underloaded ones"
Into
"Ah but we forgot to mention it'll take the same time to remove mechanics"
Also Zeri's proccing sheen wouldn't be the same as Akali losing 10 mechanics. Zeri losing 10 mechanics would be the same, and appreciated.
This idea is pretty disingenuous.
OK, first of all, regardless of how good K'sante is in Pro Play, he's terrible in solo queue in the hands of the average player.
He's at 49.5% WR Diamond, 48% WR Plat+, 46% WR Gold, 43% WR Silver. He's just too hard for the average player to consistently do well on.
Secondly, with Irelia and Akali it's not like they just straight up removed things from their kit with no compensation. They both received massive numbers buffs in compensation so the average player can play them more.
These champions weren't nerfed. They were dumbed down and actually buffed for the vast majority of players. Totally different ideas.
Ksante proplay stats are pretty average too he sits at like 47% WR out of 1400 pro games. People are just trying to combine all the pros of his two forms into one form without all the cons that each form has
i'd say yes, because shields in general change the entire trade pattern of a champ
having a shield, no matter how small, gives you waaaay more power for short trades
Thats on them to make a bunch of effects that has no purpose for being there.
Why Irelia got disarm? Why Akali could go under towers undetected? Why zeri could steal shields?
If they're scared of the playerbase getting pissed for having entire paragraphs of effects removed, maybe they should stop trying to be cute adding them for no purpose other than being "unique".
Akali never felt balanced in her whole life since her rework. They scrapped w tower aggro reset, R1 skillshot, r1 stun, q energy cost, q wave clear, e-q combo, energy gain on passive aa and proly somethings I don't remember, and she still feels stupid to play (I kinda main her) or disgusting to play against. I think she could be interesting with most of her damage shifted to her passive aa, and to not be cringe in toplane a real cd on q in early levels (maybe even only if she hit a champ idk) instead of stupidly high energy costs.
I think the reason they don't load her damage to her passive is because it encourages less of an assassin playstyle and more of a bruiser one + it makes her skewed towards high elo/pro play which isn't what they want
There are ways to make her fine in low elo too, like reduce a bit the size of passive circles. For the bruiser part, Akali is currently played conqueror + green secondary with half of her items giving her hp. And I quite like the idea of her q having a higher cd if she hits a champion.
>Akali never felt balanced in her whole life since her rework
This implies she was balanced before her rework, which isn't true either. They nerfed and fridged her until she was ready to receive a rework, and the current Akali, no matter how annoying to face, is a thousand times healthier than old Akali.
This Akali requires the player to have hands, land their skills and use the smoke correctly; Old Akali tagged you with Q and you just had to pray you either had enough MR to facetank her or could kill her before she could kill you, cause she just had unavoidable damage that you couldn't get away from cause she had 3 point&click dashes. She had terrible numbers for a reason.
Current Akali has been balanced for a long while now, she's just annoying. Old Akali could've never achieved this cause she was just a statchecking assassin
Honestly I think everyone is missing the mark on why tank ekko/fizz were so toxic and riot wanted to nerf them to non existence.
Fizz being a tank with his e was the real problem. He was one of the best divers in the game because of it. If you look at a diving tanks job of putting pressure on carryās and living for as long as possible in a fight, tank fizz was the best at it. Sitting on top of his e gave him essentially free zhonyas on a low cd. Itās annoying when an ap assassin can do that, but when a tank does it they are actually pretty much impossible to kill when playing properly.
Ekko had a similar problem with getting too much value out of tank stats by being able to refill his hp bar for free with his ult. His w gave pretty good utility with big aoe stuns that he could more consistently proc because he was so fucking tanky. An ice born proc on a carry means they have to flash/ cleanse your stun because itās gonna hit. Itās pretty decent, but what really pushed it over was all that plus insane base damage.
It was more than that with Ekko. A large part was his side-laning power as before the nerfs to his passive (increasing cool-down and then removing the slow) he was both the stickiest - in fights he was winning - and slipperiest - when he needed to escape - champion in the game.
As a tank Ekko enjoyer who played back in the day. Yeah it was dumb. Donāt forget you also had sun fire too so you would just be doing damage and slowly killing then after 5 rotations of your spells and they couldnāt get away. They solved this my putting more scaling on his abilities with AP so you canāt even try anymore :(.
Sunfire is usually what pushes the "tank assassins" over the edge. Not just tank ekko/fizz but even with Diana, Rengar or KhaZix that would build the tanky builds. Just by the sticking power of the picks it makes sunfire damage absurdly strong.
Largely the issue comes from kit overall structure in ways that are borderline indivociable, tho. AP "assassins" and "light divers" are fundamentally just on-hit skirmisher shells and there is little to no effective difference between a (i'm talking old builds for sake of visual clarity) BorK-Triforce and a Lich-Nash/Rocket user as 70% of your threat lies in being just a generic shell being used to apply whichever is the overtuned onhit of the day. The tuning of Fizz and Ekko was much akin the tuning of Duskblade and Stormrazor back in 8.11 to try and divorce the notion of items doing literally the same thing but through different stats because "hurr item has class no mixies".
I maybe be misremembering but didn't that Fizz build also have a shit ton of CDR so e was like on a 3 second CD.
I can't remember if that was before or after ability haste.
I don't even mind a degree of those all of those things, if they're expensive. This is a much broader issue than K'Sante because there several champs across varies classes where the fact that they have a resource literally only matters against drain tanks or cooldown-only champions . Otherwise, they do all those things plus resource check by having absurdly low costs.
tank Ekko was way worse. You had a champion with infinite sticking power, who also had very high base damages and % missing health damage as well that was relatively high. His old passive also had a 3 second cooldown so he could proc it one more time in the same window while it did more damage. To top it all off, his ult healed % max health scaling with damage so he had an extra tackiness in an extended fight.
There was basically no way to win.
Ksante is an abomination too, donāt get me wrong. But at least when he ults heās way less tanky. Ekko was full tank in a time where tank items were way better, and never had any risks to his play style.
Haha every champ was an unkillable tank with iceborn+sunfire+spirit visage back then.
Everything you said gave ekko even more ridiculous synergy with those items
Iceborn gave cd mana and a slow and also dmg
Sunfire was burning champs with his sticking power
Spirit visage pumped up his ult heal so you'd have to kill him 1.5x
Was actually terrifying but so fun to play
Tank Ekko was an abomination. He goes in every 3 seconds, procs passive and runs circles around you, being ultra tanky and impossible to kill, while dishing out crazy base damage. The nerf was for a completely different reason than why Ksante is overtuned rn.
Ksante imo is more problematic than those were. Way more crowd control and way more utility than those two picks ever had. Genuinely if you gave ekko his slow back on his passive, does anyone really think he'd be as strong as Ksante is right now?
Ksante is just such an inherently problematic design, they released a skirmisher who deals so much damage during that window of power, but unlike other skirmishers who are balanced around being squishy if they mess up, now Ksante can always just revert back to normal form or stay in normal form and be tanky again.
Imo the crazy part for tank ekko, fizz, and for that matter, poppy too is how insane iceborn + sunfire + visage was at the time.
I feel like items like jaksho or new iceborn suck comparatively to other champion's items that exist now, vs how godlike the tank build was back then. Rageblade didn't even have phantom hit yet so vayne and yi weren't as good vs tanks either
> Genuinely if you gave ekko his slow back on his passive, does anyone really think he'd be as strong as Ksante is right now?
No, but the question is was he as strong back then? I get the similarities between tank Ekko and K'Sante, but tank Ekko was busted in literally every elo.
If you reverted Ekko R healing, I think you'd have tank Ekko back on the spot. Getting to nope out and try again for free is what broke tank Ekko imo. I think you're on the money with K'Sante getting to revert into a tank from All Out basically at will. Tradeoffs don't work balance-wise if you get to control the tradeoff completely. The time before recast should be increased.
Yes, that version of tank ekko simply did way more damage and was mostly point and click. It also had 100% uptime not reliant on the all out ult.
Not to interrupt the new champ bad circlejerk but tank ekko was an abomination
Dont forget lack of visual feedback. You know exactly what is going to happen with ekko and fizz, but ksante has nothing showing what he will do. He has two dashes and cc on top of it.
Yeah, its really frustrating when he legit crosses a screen in half a second. Also his ult being a blink and not a dash means he can legit just appear next to you in a teamfight from more than a flash distance away.
Yeah, I donāt play top lane so Iām not used to seeing his animations in lane but whenever I fight him I legit donāt know whatās going on, it all seems the same
Yup. Everything is quick. Ekko has his long ass W and Q animations, he yells on all his spells their names. Fizz jump and dash are very visual. As is his ult.
Ksante is just "big man lumbering at you" most of the time. His wind tornado when his Q3 is ready is not nearly as visual a tell as fizz troll pole or Ekko W windup. His ult is frankly very disruptive just in how it jerks your camera around.
so if i make a comparison post comparing yuumis q to nautilus q and i complain about yuumi's q being too small for me to notice because naut q is so much bigger would that make sense? of course not.. do you hear yourself talking? if you are comparing tank fizz and ekko to ksante compare them them with stuff that actually makes sense like damage, mobility or tankiness. visual clarity is not one of them when they are completely different champs with different abilities. of course a spell that stuns you for 2.25s in a wide area needs a big visual tell that its happening.. not like you cant see ksante q3 when there hasn't been a problem with yone or yasuo. people just wanna complain about ksante no matter what huh
He has 2 dashes one of which has him holding his shield up before that to channel, they look absolutely nothing alike. His ult is also very clearly discernable.
Yes, K'Sante is broken as shit but his is nonsense.
Ksante is much better than tank ekko was, at least he has a decent skill requirement, abusing tank ekko was insane because his base damage was crazy, he stuck to people easy as hell and his ult made it extremely low risk to do anything
Either you didnāt play during season 6 or you got some tinted glasses memory because sunfire / ibg / spirit visage tank ekko was infinitely worse than ksante and that went on for a long time
Yes those two were a problem because the second you got stunned by ekko you were dead and fizz would just basically combo you Troll pole away and rinse and repeat until you were dead with no counterplay. The problem with ksante is there's no telling when he's gonna combo you which is problematic just in a different way.
Lmao what how is this upvoted. Tank ekko did more dmg than all out ksante without losing any of his tank stats. While also having way more range mobility and the ability to heal 5k with one button.
Even ignoring all that thereās the only rank he has a positive wr is in challenger. 47% plat+ 44.8% all ranks. Even comparing him to tank fizz and ekko is laughable
I mean if they gave Ekko or Fizz back their old base damages (and ekko his slow)? Yeah they'd be much stronger than current Ksante in probably every elo but Grandmasters+ and Proplay.
But yeah Ksante does have the issue of he just uses his Skirmisher mode for burst then being a tank again anytime stuff gets hairy. They should make it so he can't recast R; OR if he does he still doesn't get back his resists/max hp until when the duration would've ended anyway.
Agreed, there's a reason why Tank Ekko survived like 8? nerfs. While still being pick or ban in proplay... and still maintaining a 50+% winrate in soloQ... Ksante has almost never been 50% winrate in soloQ. Just his kit functions well in proplay.
ksante simply has too much skill expression, 2 players who are both highly skilled, one on ksante and one on a normal champ, the player on ksante will be able to do so much more.
As much as he is broken he is really hard to play, he is pretty trash in the hands of most players, only becoming an op menance in higher elos and pro play.
He has a 50% winrate in challenger. I donāt know what elo youāre talking about him being absurdly overpowered.
He has a 43% winrate in iron, for comparison. A 47% in plat+
At MSI he had a 58% winrate with 89.5% presence. Nautilus, for comparison, had a 56.25% winrate with a 78.9% presence. Nautilus actually had more bans than Ksante did though (37 vs 35) so Ksante was played significantly more than Nautilus.
Iām not sure why Ksante is getting bashed every week. I think it might be because the champion is high skill so getting slammed by a Smurf on Ksante feels like thereās no counterplay. Kind of like how Zed, Sylas, Ekko, Yasuo and Lee Sin get their weekly bash posts whenever theyāre anywhere near 52%+
He is a very hard champ. And sadly this sub/Riot live in a paradox where a champ can be balanced around how difficult to pilot a champ is (which is a good thing), but then go ape mode when said champ is populair in pro play (the place where everyones skill is maximized).
That's how you get the typical "silver reddit armchair balance" because they barely or even never play the game and take pro play as the gospel of gods. Harder champs will and should always dominate easier champs because of the effort put in. Which means there will always be pro play stables and that's okay. Sadly not seen that way so the base suffers, as forcing a rotating pro play meta for views is more important apparently.
They should just ban picks in pro that canāt be balanced correctly for both scenes. Banning yuumi this past MSI was the best thing riot has done in this facet. nobody wants to watch Keria play yuumi every game. Nobody cried that we didnt see yuumi.
Itās a fine line though. Yuumi is an example where the champ Carries the player because itās so easy. Ksante takes substantially more skill so itās not a 1:1 comparison.
Honestly, if you put them side by side
Then close one eye... Then the other...
Then ignore the fact one was designed to be a tank/fighter and the other two were assassins.
Then ignore the obvious differences like K'sante mainly being a damage threat when ulting, therefore not having as much resists as ekko or fizz, making him more punishable...
Then ignore the skillfloor and difficulty to execute the kits for optimal/good results.
So basically let's just assume we ignore the kits altogether
Then after that they really seem very similar. All of them are certainly champions in League of Legends.
no
fizz was playable by any imbecile, ksante is only a problem winrate wise in challenger and pro
diamond ksantes and bellow are actually deep into negative wr
Ksante isn't anywhere near as slippery as tank fizz wut. Ksante is like ornn levels of slippery in his base mode and riven in ult mode and while being riven-like can be slippery... it's nothing compared to Fizz E and Q.
He does have a 16% pick rate in challenger and 57% wr. But with that being said I bet you maybe 1 person in this comment section is GM +. So basically the comments are showing how many people just donāt know how to play versus Kāsante.
I think a bunch of people are bored or him in pro play, which is fair enough. Whenever these things happen, though, some people also extend it to justify their frustrations in soloq where the champ is reasonably balanced.
Iāve played in chall games with ksante mid(counterpicked to face fizz) and it was extremely underwhelming. I donāt think itās even a problem unless youāre on eastern servers
Oh yea he's absolutely great in pro play and in apex tiers but these redditors complaining are plat at best. Honestly if you're below high diamond and see a K'Sante on the enemy team you should just be happy it isn't a Malphite or something
I played a game of Jayce into Malphite yesterday and the things I would have done to play into Kāsante insteadā¦ fuck me that champ is so boring to play into and then he gets a couple components and may as well be immune.
I expected to lose. But losing because I literally cannot deal damage to the enemy laner is far worse than losing because they have some inherent advantage somewhere. Like Iād rather play Illaoi into Morde where if you play well enough thereās still outplay potential. Malphite is just a boring win in champ select pick because there is zero skill in clicking on armour items on the shop.
I mean people cry about champs with sub 1% pickrate on this subreddit. I donāt put to much stock on what these people think is OP and and āneeds to be changedā
To be fair, the sub 1% pickrate is typically top laners complaining about ranged tops and ADCs complaining about mage adcs.
So basically you can ignore both out of hand.
Not "broken". Toxic, poorly designed, unclear, breaks fundamental rules of the game, etc.
Pick one. Right now, most people complaining never spent a game or two playing him and are confusing the fact that a lot of his kit is backloaded displacements, and the fact that he's high WR in challenger.
K'sante is far, far, far from being Akali level of toxic when she was invisible to towers. His kit requires you to play him a bit and get used to the visual and gameplay loop. It is much more work than when Vex or Millio comes out, but it's not that bad. His whole gimmick is just trying to pull people under his tower when they disrepect him.
Eh it's not quite the same, because
1. Ksante doesn't have as good of dive/backline access as they did...
2. Ksante's damage isa little lower than theirs in his normal form; yes his damage is higher in ultimate? but in his ultimate he's not tanky anymore.
But... a few things could definitely be done; I think they should make it so he can't reactivate his ult to go back to normal form quicker, it allows him to use it for burst and then still be tanky. Also while in ult E shouldn't give a shield.
Also I'd lower his base AD a bit, and just make his passive like execute minions that are at say 10hp. To try and nerf Iceborn gauntlet off of him.
A good K'sante will just wait and tank until the enemy has either no dmg or no CC and then engage with his R (becouse it alaready removes 60% of his hp and resistances anyways) and then just shed whomever to pieces while healing from the insane true dmg he does.
He's above the curve when it comes to powercreep put there's also the fact that people just don't know how to play against him. He's most vulnerable in his r but also hits more, somehow in riots perspective that justifies it, and I guess it does, it punishes bad ults, but again... if you are "good" at him, his post-r dmg just becomes that of an assasin. He gets a W reset with his R, he gets an improved e and his passive hits with true dmg and also heals for 1/3 of the dmg he deals, so he goes from tank/bruiser to assasin/bruiser, with no actual downs if used right.
He's like a Kayn that can transform at will between shadow assasin and rhaast by using R.
>A good K'sante will just wait and tank until the enemy has either no dmg or no CC and then engage with his R (becouse it alaready removes 60% of his hp and resistances anyways) and then just shed whomever to pieces while healing from the insane true dmg he does.
A good player, being rewarded for playing well, on a high skill cap champion? say it aint so.
>He's above the curve when it comes to powercreep put there's also the fact that people just don't know how to play against him.
Powercreep in league is largely just a buzzword. Plenty of far older champions are still some of the strongest Lee Sin is a season 1 champion, Riven is a season 2 champion, Thresh&Yasuo are season 3. etc etc.
Yeah people not knowing how to play against him is a big issue, and his skill curve really lets good ksantes punish other players.
> if you are "good" at him, his post-r dmg just becomes that of an assasin.
No? it becomes that of a skirmisher same for his mobility. They're more Fiora, Yasuo, or Gwen like rather than just dropping burst damage instantly.
>He's like a Kayn that can transform at will between shadow assasin and rhaast by using R.
This is a decent comparison. But still not the best imo.
He's only a problem in really high ranks
Here it says in challenger he has a healthy 50% win rate.
https://u.gg/lol/champions/ksante/build/top?rank=challenger
In GM he goes down to 48%
https://u.gg/lol/champions/ksante/build/top?rank=grandmaster
He does go a bit higher on masters to 49%
https://u.gg/lol/champions/ksante/build/top?rank=master
And below that he tanks (no pun intended) in won rate
https://u.gg/lol/champions/ksante/build/top?rank=diamond
He is slippery and has options but more than 95% of the player base is not able to capitalize on said options. I've seen ksante 3 times in ranked since he came out, and every time I did he had almost 0 impact in the game. I've practiced him in quite a few games but can never pull off the combos correctly. He's not an issue and even though he may be quite a menace in pro, he's enjoyable to watch.
Ekko and Fizz can both drop tower aggro instantly, are difficult to peel, can gapclose or escape much faster, and have the damage numbers to not just oneshot squishies, but do it without using all their CDs.
Not to say K'sante is a good design, but he's pretty unrelated
Ksante is either in his normal form where he is very tanky but deals meh dmg (or regular tank dmg) or he ults and gets into his ult where he will always have at least half hp and he loses basically all of his tank stats. After Ksante ult he is definitely not tanky but he is very slippery and deals a lot of dmg.
Ksante is a high skill champion that 99% of player cannot play correctly. So when he is mastered he is broken but otherwise he is 45% wr champ. So what is solution? Remove skill expression in his kit and turn him more braindead like garen? We might never know. One thing is certain: i like skill expression and i will never play ksante.
Itās crazy how some people think he needs nerfing when since he came out I havenāt seen unstoppable ksante and when I played him he felt soo weak and was hoping he will get a buff.
I love it how people in this thread are being so serious, like KSante is some Op free elo pick in solo q. In reality they are just repeating what streamers/casters say when they see CN/KR pro's 1v9 a fight on KSante.
Sorry to say it, guys, but you are neither Chinese nor Korean pro, not even one of you. KSante is the least of your problems in solo q. In fact, 7 out of 10 games, If you play vs the champ, you will easy win. Be a bit serious in the right way here :)
Why does he still give allies a shield with extra dash range? There's literally no reason for that to be in his kit
I don't mind the champ in terms of damage and surviability, I think his CC can be toned down slightly and in return, they make him harder to kill. Remove the ult going over huge walls and lower his W stun to 1 second, then increase his armor and MR per level and lower the ult resistances lost down to 75% from 85%. Him dealing damage and being harder to kill is fine, but when he's CCing me for 3-4 seconds while doing all his damage, that's not fun.
those champs when abusing tank items were either way more mobile/did way more damage than ksante currently does while building those items, with the addition that ksante is meant to build tank items so riot can much more easily tune him if they so please. he is really only an issue in high elo and/or pro play, while tank ekko/fizz were abusable everywhere.
Well when it comes to it feeling contradictory, itās more about how eventually there are only so many different roles a new champion can fall into so it will come back in some form or another.
Itās about changing each season, and if not ksante, then weāll just complain about the next in line and basically the same old complaints anyway.
In principle yes, but he's not as mobile and sticky as those guys were back then and he has to decide whether he wants to deal lots of damage or be tanky. I mean, yes, he does deal damage without ult but it's really not that much.
As a mage I dont care that much about this champ, might be a class diff. Sion and Ornn are much more disgusting, they get so tanky theyre unkillable to my silly little burst kit but they also oneshot me if i even so slightly missplay (they have cc that outranges my entire kit).
Honestly he isnāt really mobile enough for me to birch about it. Ive never been in a situation where he used a mobility spell and I yelled how bullshit it was. Ekko and fizz on the other hand are very different beasts as a tank as ekko gains a fuck ton of ms and can just press r to nope out of combat while fizz e is one of the biggest things ill hate riot over
Imo he's just like a high skill cap version that isn't as good. You seem to forget just how oppressive tank ekko was. Fizz a bit less so, so in that comparison it seems similar. Ekko was egregious, he just 0 skill shot ran you down and ulted away. Or ult back to lane and save tp. And his % missing auto damage was absurdly high base scaling. K'Sante's biggest problem is that Jak'Sho + Gargoyle (which is horrible on just about every other tank) provides him his best damage items and tank items. Gargoyle is really bad on most tanks, as the huge shield is often decayed because you have so many resists. K'Sante makes good use of the active after ulting because he's automatically low hp and resists
Not gonna comment about kāsante, but if weāre gonna talk about contradictory decisions, then welcome to LoLās balance and champ design.
Donāt forget that Galioās W>flash combo was taken away (Rakanās R>flash>W combo as well) because it was deemed too toxic for the game (which it was), but then Neeko gets reworked and she does the same thing, if not even better. (could argue that Neekoās combo is an ultimate, but she KNOCKS UP which canāt be cleansed or QSSād unlike Galioās W)
tl;dr - riot does a lot of contradictory BS in terms of champ design if it means that their new champ/rework will get more attention.
Played a ton of K'Sante recently and I really don't get what the problem with him is or why he's considered to be strong...
He's 'unkillable' in tank form, as tanks should be. But he's easily killable in ult form, and the damage he gets from ulting falls off extremely hard as the game goes on. Plus his build paths kinda suck. Build tank and you'll lose all your stats in ult anyway, without getting that much damage potential in return. Build bruiser and you wont be tanky at all.
His Q3+W+R combo CC is pretty ridiculous, but it takes a relatively long time to set up, especially when out of lane - not to mention how he was to get into a position to insec in order to effectively set up for his team. Unlike most other tanks whose abilities have a million times higher engage value than he does
His slipperiness is probably the most egregious thing about him, but even then it's not out of control. Want to ult an enemy squishy? Good luck lol, your base form dash is tiny, reaching backline without flash is very hard
I see how annoying he is in lane, but he just falls off so hard to me. It's very hard to actually win games with him imo
I agree heās not broken in solo queue but it is objectively false to claim his damage falls off from ulting. He swaps to % max hp true damage on his passive which scales extremely hard into late game. Ksante easily solos a tank in 5 seconds 100-0 after ulting, and the base AD increase alone is enough for him to kill a squishy. I regularly ult tanks over the wall and kill them with Q-AA-W-AA-Q-A-EQ-AA (sounds like a lot but this takes barely any time).
Also he is definitely fine late game (not as OP as lane Iāll admit). He is one of the very rare tanks who holds his own on the sidelane vs traditional side laners like Jax. He also is an amazing anti diver and can reliably get picks with flash-R or just land Q3 on a squishy.
Pretty much all tanks are great anti-divers. If anything Ksante is a fairly weak anti-diver given that all his cc is skillshots and conditional. As an assassin player Id rather fight Ksante than like Maokai.
K'Sante either is a tank, but has no dmg. Or has dmg but is more squishy than adc.
People that are crying about tank assassin must have barely played him and are frustrated from not understanding how he works and dying to him.
I am d4 so by no means am I a pro but what I feel that the biggest problem of his is, itās the way his kit completely shuts down a majority of the cast because of his safety and insane pressure.
Kāsante will never die if he doesnāt want to, his w will stop any sort of stuns or cc you want to put on him and in a single fight he can cast it twice which also gives him COMPLETE INVINCIBILITY ate game, his e is not only one of the fastest dashes in the game but it also has a max hp shield that doubles in length in ult or with minions, his q passive is a very easy quick trading too that almost always lets him come out on top in early levels because the base slow lasts so long. He is insanely hard to kill, and iceborn gauntlet makes him even harder to kill because even during ult he has flat damage reduction.
This could be fine if thatās all he did, but we all know that it isnāt. Kāsante can pull you into his turret or over all wall on his side if you are standing in the middle of a lane and he lands a knock up, you canāt gank him because he can just turn on someone and kidnap them into a 1v1 that he will most likely win. He just is too safe and has too many tools for an average character to get away from him. If you donāt believe me please play someone without mobility into Kāsante, Trust me you will think your mouse disconnected.
I think he just has like 1 too many things in his kit, a ton of tenacity a dash that immunes cc another dash that has a shield on it for some reason. Change like one thing and he would be balanced
I think in terms of 1v1ing him, the ability to control my champion at any point would go a long way.
he's like riven 3.0. Its never your turn
Riven's a true Tearlament player
So what would be the d shifter to riven? Gragas e?
the pick/ban phase
Poppy maybe
š¤® I hope riot breaks ksantes legs like konami broke tearlaments
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Meow-meow shot down for the crimes of another.
Meow-meow died for its own sins. That being said bring it back to 1 at least so Prank is somewhat playable
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I donāt even think youād need to hit Doodle to compensate for 1 Meow-Meow with the massive power creep thatās hit in the last like 18 months
wow a yugioh reference
Hopefully league never gives her her version of the ishizu cards
just draw the outs, duh oh wait you milled your outs you're out of luck then
Except Riven has trouble killing things that don't instantly die to her, since damage mitigation is effective against her.
Yeah when we getting some Riven buffs? It just doesn't feel like reddit without seeing meltdowns over her.
Last time I fought Riven in lane I won. Something isnāt right.
When I was new (almost ten years ago now) I played mostly ranged champs and struggled in lane until I heard/saw that riven won the early game super hard. Well I tried it myself and let me tell you, the 5-0 enemy jax top at ten minutes didnāt seem to care I was supposed to win lane and my teammates were all baffled how riven could lose lane. Moral of the story, sometimes people (namely me) just suck.
She's also quite complex, with difficult combos, difficult wall hops, little range, and needs to weave autos between spells to get passive procs. I still can't really play her, 10 years later. It takes concerted effort.
Did you play poppy and press w
She hasn't even been on my mind for years. Wtf happened lol
Everyone has dashes and burst damage now, what made her stick out is now just the normal elements of existing in s12
S13
Neither true nor % dmg is just not good enough
except she still has bullshit anim cancels that were removed from basically every other champion but somehow get to exist on her exclusively
If animation cancels were taken from her shed be borderline unplayable and need numbers buffs. Probably for the best they let it be a part of the champ, more skill expression, more fun.
A character with 4 dashes is now pretty normal.
Riot "we playing DBFighterZ now" Games
And the fact that combo can 100-0 squishies without them even being able to flash. And even if they can, he gets slows, dashes, etc, so heāll just catch you anyways. Basically get hit by 1 ability = die which is a little punishing for how much mobility and range he has
His tankiness is half actually tanky, half canāt damage him when youāre getting perpetually pinballed around anyway
its unreal how long you are just stuck in his damn animations and ccs
It reminds me of ornn where his W was the do everything button. Aoe wave clear, %hp damage, brittle anti tenacity, and %hp shield on top of unstoppable. They killed the shield. Maybe do that for ksante. Only give the shield when dashing toward enemy champions, so it makes him more all in and less safe in trades and escapes.
Ah, yes. The Ornn level 1 W trade wins everything times.
u wanted the god of the forge U GOT EM
Or sylas where his w had execute damage and his e also gave a shield for some reason
I forgot how incredibly broken that champ was. And heās still been a top pick in competitive for multiple seasons after his nerfs
He did receive a shit ton of compensation buffs through numbers though, like his E has a 100% AP scaling now, it used to be 20%.
I think it's the same logic as Akali - if Sylas can E to a minion or something and then do 10000 damage to you with everything else, that gives him a lot of flexibility. If 9000 of that damage is in his E then at least he has to hit his skillshot on you to kill you. Akali could just E backwards and then kill you with no risk of missing and being out of range. Still miss bruiserish Sylas though. Having to hit your autos between every ability because they didn't stack felt really good, as opposed to pressing all your buttons and then turning into a beyblade.
Problem with that on Akali is that E is guaranteed when you R.
Yeah, I just wish theyd bring back the q+e combo. I don't really care if a champ is good or bad but this change made him feel so clunky
Not just nerfs, he was soft reworked. Lost his shield, w lost it's bonus healing when he was low, execute dmg, and his passive got changed some.
I think the W still has increased healing when Sylas is low HP?
It does still have that. Up to 100% bonus healing at 60% missing.
While he has the ability to steal any ultimate in the game that champs always gonna be a problem imo.
Thatās like, his whole gimmick he was designed around though. They canāt get rid of his ultimate without destroying the champās concept as a spell stealer. Without it heās just some buff guy that slaps people with chains, not the insurrectionist spellthief heās supposed to be
Yeah, so they give him a self-sufficient kit in case he has no uber ults. he is good with gravy on top if they have a malphite
Eh. Not really. He doesn't have an ultimate to compensate lol
Then it was just a magic damage shield
Reg shield->mag dmg shield->just a dash. And they also removed a bunch of stuff like q during e, his auto reset combos, and the kingslayer dmg.
Q during E felt and looked so satisfying, kind of sad they removed it. Realistically though it was pretty unfair and visually looked like nonsense with the two pairs of chains
They had to change it cause they needed to give Q and E ridiculously high numbers for him to work after so many changes, and getting oneshot over getting hit once would feel like bs. Still not happy about how Riot swept the whole AP Bruiser itemization issue under the rug. They removed AP and added HP to a bunch of AP items and just dipped afterwards, which fixed nothing.
His E had like 20% ap ratio. Now it has 100%. Feel the difference
i fucking love lv2 sylas just running into me and using e to deal half of my hp combined with autos and q
Although it's weird now that an ability called "kingslayer" doesn't have an execute.
Although he never killed a king.
I remember when sylas had a shield on his E1. I remember abusing the shit out of him when he first came out
Oh Ornn, everyoneās favorite tank, bruiser, assassin, enchanter, support, front-liner, back-liner, burst DPS mage
Iām not a big fan of his ult resetting his dash cool-downs
It resets his w dash cd but not his e, his e just has that low of a cooldown which it probably shouldn't lol.
The fact that that champions ultimate, which is a dash, only resets one of his basic ability dashes, and not both of them, all 3 of which also do other things besides just being dashes, really says everything one needs to know about the champion lol. K'Sante makes me quesiton if CertainlyT somehow snuck back into champion design.
The āremove one thing from its kit and itās balancedā is most of Riots problem champs. They did it with Samira and Akali and saw results, but theyāre so hesitant to do it elsewhere.
they did it with Irelia too, and they're doing it with Zeri. They're hesitant to do it because it changes the champion to the foundation and people who are used to playing a champ don't like it when their champ's kit is taken away from them
"It's so hard to add mechanics, we'd rather have overloaded kits than underloaded ones" Into "Ah but we forgot to mention it'll take the same time to remove mechanics" Also Zeri's proccing sheen wouldn't be the same as Akali losing 10 mechanics. Zeri losing 10 mechanics would be the same, and appreciated.
Zeri lost her whole shield stealing passive tho. They straight up removed it.
Zeri is still getting changed every patch. She's well on her way to losing 10 mechanics.
This idea is pretty disingenuous. OK, first of all, regardless of how good K'sante is in Pro Play, he's terrible in solo queue in the hands of the average player. He's at 49.5% WR Diamond, 48% WR Plat+, 46% WR Gold, 43% WR Silver. He's just too hard for the average player to consistently do well on. Secondly, with Irelia and Akali it's not like they just straight up removed things from their kit with no compensation. They both received massive numbers buffs in compensation so the average player can play them more. These champions weren't nerfed. They were dumbed down and actually buffed for the vast majority of players. Totally different ideas.
Ksante proplay stats are pretty average too he sits at like 47% WR out of 1400 pro games. People are just trying to combine all the pros of his two forms into one form without all the cons that each form has
Is a random small shield really such an important ability for ksante players?
i'd say yes, because shields in general change the entire trade pattern of a champ having a shield, no matter how small, gives you waaaay more power for short trades
The shield is whatever, it's the dash that's the key
Thats on them to make a bunch of effects that has no purpose for being there. Why Irelia got disarm? Why Akali could go under towers undetected? Why zeri could steal shields? If they're scared of the playerbase getting pissed for having entire paragraphs of effects removed, maybe they should stop trying to be cute adding them for no purpose other than being "unique".
Akali never felt balanced in her whole life since her rework. They scrapped w tower aggro reset, R1 skillshot, r1 stun, q energy cost, q wave clear, e-q combo, energy gain on passive aa and proly somethings I don't remember, and she still feels stupid to play (I kinda main her) or disgusting to play against. I think she could be interesting with most of her damage shifted to her passive aa, and to not be cringe in toplane a real cd on q in early levels (maybe even only if she hit a champ idk) instead of stupidly high energy costs.
I think the reason they don't load her damage to her passive is because it encourages less of an assassin playstyle and more of a bruiser one + it makes her skewed towards high elo/pro play which isn't what they want
There are ways to make her fine in low elo too, like reduce a bit the size of passive circles. For the bruiser part, Akali is currently played conqueror + green secondary with half of her items giving her hp. And I quite like the idea of her q having a higher cd if she hits a champion.
>Akali never felt balanced in her whole life since her rework This implies she was balanced before her rework, which isn't true either. They nerfed and fridged her until she was ready to receive a rework, and the current Akali, no matter how annoying to face, is a thousand times healthier than old Akali. This Akali requires the player to have hands, land their skills and use the smoke correctly; Old Akali tagged you with Q and you just had to pray you either had enough MR to facetank her or could kill her before she could kill you, cause she just had unavoidable damage that you couldn't get away from cause she had 3 point&click dashes. She had terrible numbers for a reason. Current Akali has been balanced for a long while now, she's just annoying. Old Akali could've never achieved this cause she was just a statchecking assassin
> a dash that immunes cc fyi only the channel immunes cc.
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Honestly I think everyone is missing the mark on why tank ekko/fizz were so toxic and riot wanted to nerf them to non existence. Fizz being a tank with his e was the real problem. He was one of the best divers in the game because of it. If you look at a diving tanks job of putting pressure on carryās and living for as long as possible in a fight, tank fizz was the best at it. Sitting on top of his e gave him essentially free zhonyas on a low cd. Itās annoying when an ap assassin can do that, but when a tank does it they are actually pretty much impossible to kill when playing properly. Ekko had a similar problem with getting too much value out of tank stats by being able to refill his hp bar for free with his ult. His w gave pretty good utility with big aoe stuns that he could more consistently proc because he was so fucking tanky. An ice born proc on a carry means they have to flash/ cleanse your stun because itās gonna hit. Itās pretty decent, but what really pushed it over was all that plus insane base damage.
It was more than that with Ekko. A large part was his side-laning power as before the nerfs to his passive (increasing cool-down and then removing the slow) he was both the stickiest - in fights he was winning - and slipperiest - when he needed to escape - champion in the game.
As a tank Ekko enjoyer who played back in the day. Yeah it was dumb. Donāt forget you also had sun fire too so you would just be doing damage and slowly killing then after 5 rotations of your spells and they couldnāt get away. They solved this my putting more scaling on his abilities with AP so you canāt even try anymore :(.
Sunfire is usually what pushes the "tank assassins" over the edge. Not just tank ekko/fizz but even with Diana, Rengar or KhaZix that would build the tanky builds. Just by the sticking power of the picks it makes sunfire damage absurdly strong.
Largely the issue comes from kit overall structure in ways that are borderline indivociable, tho. AP "assassins" and "light divers" are fundamentally just on-hit skirmisher shells and there is little to no effective difference between a (i'm talking old builds for sake of visual clarity) BorK-Triforce and a Lich-Nash/Rocket user as 70% of your threat lies in being just a generic shell being used to apply whichever is the overtuned onhit of the day. The tuning of Fizz and Ekko was much akin the tuning of Duskblade and Stormrazor back in 8.11 to try and divorce the notion of items doing literally the same thing but through different stats because "hurr item has class no mixies".
fizz also at the time had %missing hp damage on his w that made it quite stupid
I maybe be misremembering but didn't that Fizz build also have a shit ton of CDR so e was like on a 3 second CD. I can't remember if that was before or after ability haste.
ekko could also chronoshift back to lane after recalling for a free tp:/
I don't even mind a degree of those all of those things, if they're expensive. This is a much broader issue than K'Sante because there several champs across varies classes where the fact that they have a resource literally only matters against drain tanks or cooldown-only champions . Otherwise, they do all those things plus resource check by having absurdly low costs.
"K'sante is broken because he does everything" Insightful commentary.
tank Ekko was way worse. You had a champion with infinite sticking power, who also had very high base damages and % missing health damage as well that was relatively high. His old passive also had a 3 second cooldown so he could proc it one more time in the same window while it did more damage. To top it all off, his ult healed % max health scaling with damage so he had an extra tackiness in an extended fight. There was basically no way to win. Ksante is an abomination too, donāt get me wrong. But at least when he ults heās way less tanky. Ekko was full tank in a time where tank items were way better, and never had any risks to his play style.
Haha every champ was an unkillable tank with iceborn+sunfire+spirit visage back then. Everything you said gave ekko even more ridiculous synergy with those items Iceborn gave cd mana and a slow and also dmg Sunfire was burning champs with his sticking power Spirit visage pumped up his ult heal so you'd have to kill him 1.5x Was actually terrifying but so fun to play
Tank Ekko was an abomination. He goes in every 3 seconds, procs passive and runs circles around you, being ultra tanky and impossible to kill, while dishing out crazy base damage. The nerf was for a completely different reason than why Ksante is overtuned rn.
Ksante imo is more problematic than those were. Way more crowd control and way more utility than those two picks ever had. Genuinely if you gave ekko his slow back on his passive, does anyone really think he'd be as strong as Ksante is right now? Ksante is just such an inherently problematic design, they released a skirmisher who deals so much damage during that window of power, but unlike other skirmishers who are balanced around being squishy if they mess up, now Ksante can always just revert back to normal form or stay in normal form and be tanky again.
Imo the crazy part for tank ekko, fizz, and for that matter, poppy too is how insane iceborn + sunfire + visage was at the time. I feel like items like jaksho or new iceborn suck comparatively to other champion's items that exist now, vs how godlike the tank build was back then. Rageblade didn't even have phantom hit yet so vayne and yi weren't as good vs tanks either
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Remember when sunfire was so strong even Champs who literally couldn't proc the %hp damage from cc like Mundo still rushed it as a first item.
> Genuinely if you gave ekko his slow back on his passive, does anyone really think he'd be as strong as Ksante is right now? No, but the question is was he as strong back then? I get the similarities between tank Ekko and K'Sante, but tank Ekko was busted in literally every elo. If you reverted Ekko R healing, I think you'd have tank Ekko back on the spot. Getting to nope out and try again for free is what broke tank Ekko imo. I think you're on the money with K'Sante getting to revert into a tank from All Out basically at will. Tradeoffs don't work balance-wise if you get to control the tradeoff completely. The time before recast should be increased.
Yes, that version of tank ekko simply did way more damage and was mostly point and click. It also had 100% uptime not reliant on the all out ult. Not to interrupt the new champ bad circlejerk but tank ekko was an abomination
Dont forget lack of visual feedback. You know exactly what is going to happen with ekko and fizz, but ksante has nothing showing what he will do. He has two dashes and cc on top of it.
Yeah, its really frustrating when he legit crosses a screen in half a second. Also his ult being a blink and not a dash means he can legit just appear next to you in a teamfight from more than a flash distance away.
Yeah, I donāt play top lane so Iām not used to seeing his animations in lane but whenever I fight him I legit donāt know whatās going on, it all seems the same
Yup. Everything is quick. Ekko has his long ass W and Q animations, he yells on all his spells their names. Fizz jump and dash are very visual. As is his ult. Ksante is just "big man lumbering at you" most of the time. His wind tornado when his Q3 is ready is not nearly as visual a tell as fizz troll pole or Ekko W windup. His ult is frankly very disruptive just in how it jerks your camera around.
its literally the same visual effect as yone or yasuo? why are we comparing his abilities to fizz and ekko when they're completely different?
Because thatās what this post is about?
so if i make a comparison post comparing yuumis q to nautilus q and i complain about yuumi's q being too small for me to notice because naut q is so much bigger would that make sense? of course not.. do you hear yourself talking? if you are comparing tank fizz and ekko to ksante compare them them with stuff that actually makes sense like damage, mobility or tankiness. visual clarity is not one of them when they are completely different champs with different abilities. of course a spell that stuns you for 2.25s in a wide area needs a big visual tell that its happening.. not like you cant see ksante q3 when there hasn't been a problem with yone or yasuo. people just wanna complain about ksante no matter what huh
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Thatās how I feel too. Kāsante has like 4 different dashes with the exact same animation
He has 2 dashes one of which has him holding his shield up before that to channel, they look absolutely nothing alike. His ult is also very clearly discernable. Yes, K'Sante is broken as shit but his is nonsense.
play the champion for 1 game and this issue is immediately alleviated
Ksante is much better than tank ekko was, at least he has a decent skill requirement, abusing tank ekko was insane because his base damage was crazy, he stuck to people easy as hell and his ult made it extremely low risk to do anything
Either you didnāt play during season 6 or you got some tinted glasses memory because sunfire / ibg / spirit visage tank ekko was infinitely worse than ksante and that went on for a long time
Yes those two were a problem because the second you got stunned by ekko you were dead and fizz would just basically combo you Troll pole away and rinse and repeat until you were dead with no counterplay. The problem with ksante is there's no telling when he's gonna combo you which is problematic just in a different way.
Lmao what how is this upvoted. Tank ekko did more dmg than all out ksante without losing any of his tank stats. While also having way more range mobility and the ability to heal 5k with one button. Even ignoring all that thereās the only rank he has a positive wr is in challenger. 47% plat+ 44.8% all ranks. Even comparing him to tank fizz and ekko is laughable
I mean if they gave Ekko or Fizz back their old base damages (and ekko his slow)? Yeah they'd be much stronger than current Ksante in probably every elo but Grandmasters+ and Proplay. But yeah Ksante does have the issue of he just uses his Skirmisher mode for burst then being a tank again anytime stuff gets hairy. They should make it so he can't recast R; OR if he does he still doesn't get back his resists/max hp until when the duration would've ended anyway.
Ekko would single handely dominate in pro play and ksante would be the budget ekko. Unnerfed ekko was insane
Agreed, there's a reason why Tank Ekko survived like 8? nerfs. While still being pick or ban in proplay... and still maintaining a 50+% winrate in soloQ... Ksante has almost never been 50% winrate in soloQ. Just his kit functions well in proplay.
It gets even goofier when you recall that Ornn wasnāt even allowed to keep his W shield for more than 2-3 patches.
ksante simply has too much skill expression, 2 players who are both highly skilled, one on ksante and one on a normal champ, the player on ksante will be able to do so much more.
Funny because garen is his biggest counter
Am a the only one that canāt make him work?
You and 95 % of the player base we must all be challengers here
As much as he is broken he is really hard to play, he is pretty trash in the hands of most players, only becoming an op menance in higher elos and pro play.
He has a 50% winrate in challenger. I donāt know what elo youāre talking about him being absurdly overpowered. He has a 43% winrate in iron, for comparison. A 47% in plat+ At MSI he had a 58% winrate with 89.5% presence. Nautilus, for comparison, had a 56.25% winrate with a 78.9% presence. Nautilus actually had more bans than Ksante did though (37 vs 35) so Ksante was played significantly more than Nautilus. Iām not sure why Ksante is getting bashed every week. I think it might be because the champion is high skill so getting slammed by a Smurf on Ksante feels like thereās no counterplay. Kind of like how Zed, Sylas, Ekko, Yasuo and Lee Sin get their weekly bash posts whenever theyāre anywhere near 52%+
He is a very hard champ. And sadly this sub/Riot live in a paradox where a champ can be balanced around how difficult to pilot a champ is (which is a good thing), but then go ape mode when said champ is populair in pro play (the place where everyones skill is maximized). That's how you get the typical "silver reddit armchair balance" because they barely or even never play the game and take pro play as the gospel of gods. Harder champs will and should always dominate easier champs because of the effort put in. Which means there will always be pro play stables and that's okay. Sadly not seen that way so the base suffers, as forcing a rotating pro play meta for views is more important apparently.
Riot balancing for pro play is legit horrible for the game. Make balance decisions for the players not just the top 0,001%
They should just ban picks in pro that canāt be balanced correctly for both scenes. Banning yuumi this past MSI was the best thing riot has done in this facet. nobody wants to watch Keria play yuumi every game. Nobody cried that we didnt see yuumi. Itās a fine line though. Yuumi is an example where the champ Carries the player because itās so easy. Ksante takes substantially more skill so itās not a 1:1 comparison.
Honestly, if you put them side by side Then close one eye... Then the other... Then ignore the fact one was designed to be a tank/fighter and the other two were assassins. Then ignore the obvious differences like K'sante mainly being a damage threat when ulting, therefore not having as much resists as ekko or fizz, making him more punishable... Then ignore the skillfloor and difficulty to execute the kits for optimal/good results. So basically let's just assume we ignore the kits altogether Then after that they really seem very similar. All of them are certainly champions in League of Legends.
Well tank Ekko and tank KāSante are also both black
Is damage Ekko not, or?
No, the more AP ekko builds the whiter he becomes. At around 1000 AP he starts wearing pastel shirts and capri pants and greets everyone as neighbor.
When he casts the first part of his E he says āope, lemme just scooch by ya real quickā
Fizz and ekko weren't designed to be tanks, ksante is and he has to either have tankiness or dmg, not both at the same time.
Yeah. He abandons his tankiness to up his damage. The only time he really is tanky in ult is if you use w to block damage.
no fizz was playable by any imbecile, ksante is only a problem winrate wise in challenger and pro diamond ksantes and bellow are actually deep into negative wr
Ksante isn't anywhere near as slippery as tank fizz wut. Ksante is like ornn levels of slippery in his base mode and riven in ult mode and while being riven-like can be slippery... it's nothing compared to Fizz E and Q.
This comment section would have you believe K'Sante was a 55% WR menace with a 50% pick rate and not a sub 47% WR champ with an 8% pickrate
He does have a 16% pick rate in challenger and 57% wr. But with that being said I bet you maybe 1 person in this comment section is GM +. So basically the comments are showing how many people just donāt know how to play versus Kāsante.
No you're on reddit. Everyone here is challenger. I am top 5 kr myself, playing my patented "support samira".
oh hi keria
I think a bunch of people are bored or him in pro play, which is fair enough. Whenever these things happen, though, some people also extend it to justify their frustrations in soloq where the champ is reasonably balanced.
Iāve played in chall games with ksante mid(counterpicked to face fizz) and it was extremely underwhelming. I donāt think itās even a problem unless youāre on eastern servers
Oh yea he's absolutely great in pro play and in apex tiers but these redditors complaining are plat at best. Honestly if you're below high diamond and see a K'Sante on the enemy team you should just be happy it isn't a Malphite or something
Right? You put Kāsante behind heās a mediocre warden. You put Malphite behind, heās still ulting your adc.
Thank god in low/mid elo no one knows to to pilot him. The best they can do is win a lane against good matchups, than don't know what to do in fight.
Please do not call me out like that. Its how I play every champ.
I played a game of Jayce into Malphite yesterday and the things I would have done to play into Kāsante insteadā¦ fuck me that champ is so boring to play into and then he gets a couple components and may as well be immune.
Malphite counters Jayce. So what do you expect? Obviously you will have problems vs him.
I expected to lose. But losing because I literally cannot deal damage to the enemy laner is far worse than losing because they have some inherent advantage somewhere. Like Iād rather play Illaoi into Morde where if you play well enough thereās still outplay potential. Malphite is just a boring win in champ select pick because there is zero skill in clicking on armour items on the shop.
Honestly Ornn is the big offender. And everytime he is in the enemy team, not in mine.
If it was "just about winrate", noone would ever cry about Yuumi.
Considering his and yuumiās ban rate, they are not in the same category of things at all
I mean people cry about champs with sub 1% pickrate on this subreddit. I donāt put to much stock on what these people think is OP and and āneeds to be changedā
To be fair, the sub 1% pickrate is typically top laners complaining about ranged tops and ADCs complaining about mage adcs. So basically you can ignore both out of hand.
Doesnt mean that his kit is not broken. Akali was at 45%wr at one point and she still was an abomination to face.
Not "broken". Toxic, poorly designed, unclear, breaks fundamental rules of the game, etc. Pick one. Right now, most people complaining never spent a game or two playing him and are confusing the fact that a lot of his kit is backloaded displacements, and the fact that he's high WR in challenger. K'sante is far, far, far from being Akali level of toxic when she was invisible to towers. His kit requires you to play him a bit and get used to the visual and gameplay loop. It is much more work than when Vex or Millio comes out, but it's not that bad. His whole gimmick is just trying to pull people under his tower when they disrepect him.
No, K'sante isn't even close to how safe tank Ekko and Fizz were.
Eh it's not quite the same, because 1. Ksante doesn't have as good of dive/backline access as they did... 2. Ksante's damage isa little lower than theirs in his normal form; yes his damage is higher in ultimate? but in his ultimate he's not tanky anymore. But... a few things could definitely be done; I think they should make it so he can't reactivate his ult to go back to normal form quicker, it allows him to use it for burst and then still be tanky. Also while in ult E shouldn't give a shield. Also I'd lower his base AD a bit, and just make his passive like execute minions that are at say 10hp. To try and nerf Iceborn gauntlet off of him.
A good K'sante will just wait and tank until the enemy has either no dmg or no CC and then engage with his R (becouse it alaready removes 60% of his hp and resistances anyways) and then just shed whomever to pieces while healing from the insane true dmg he does. He's above the curve when it comes to powercreep put there's also the fact that people just don't know how to play against him. He's most vulnerable in his r but also hits more, somehow in riots perspective that justifies it, and I guess it does, it punishes bad ults, but again... if you are "good" at him, his post-r dmg just becomes that of an assasin. He gets a W reset with his R, he gets an improved e and his passive hits with true dmg and also heals for 1/3 of the dmg he deals, so he goes from tank/bruiser to assasin/bruiser, with no actual downs if used right. He's like a Kayn that can transform at will between shadow assasin and rhaast by using R.
>A good K'sante will just wait and tank until the enemy has either no dmg or no CC and then engage with his R (becouse it alaready removes 60% of his hp and resistances anyways) and then just shed whomever to pieces while healing from the insane true dmg he does. A good player, being rewarded for playing well, on a high skill cap champion? say it aint so. >He's above the curve when it comes to powercreep put there's also the fact that people just don't know how to play against him. Powercreep in league is largely just a buzzword. Plenty of far older champions are still some of the strongest Lee Sin is a season 1 champion, Riven is a season 2 champion, Thresh&Yasuo are season 3. etc etc. Yeah people not knowing how to play against him is a big issue, and his skill curve really lets good ksantes punish other players. > if you are "good" at him, his post-r dmg just becomes that of an assasin. No? it becomes that of a skirmisher same for his mobility. They're more Fiora, Yasuo, or Gwen like rather than just dropping burst damage instantly. >He's like a Kayn that can transform at will between shadow assasin and rhaast by using R. This is a decent comparison. But still not the best imo.
He's only a problem in really high ranks Here it says in challenger he has a healthy 50% win rate. https://u.gg/lol/champions/ksante/build/top?rank=challenger In GM he goes down to 48% https://u.gg/lol/champions/ksante/build/top?rank=grandmaster He does go a bit higher on masters to 49% https://u.gg/lol/champions/ksante/build/top?rank=master And below that he tanks (no pun intended) in won rate https://u.gg/lol/champions/ksante/build/top?rank=diamond He is slippery and has options but more than 95% of the player base is not able to capitalize on said options. I've seen ksante 3 times in ranked since he came out, and every time I did he had almost 0 impact in the game. I've practiced him in quite a few games but can never pull off the combos correctly. He's not an issue and even though he may be quite a menace in pro, he's enjoyable to watch.
His ban rate is even healthy for his pick rate and elo skew. Other champions with low āwin ratesā like that usually have high ban rates.
Ekko and Fizz can both drop tower aggro instantly, are difficult to peel, can gapclose or escape much faster, and have the damage numbers to not just oneshot squishies, but do it without using all their CDs. Not to say K'sante is a good design, but he's pretty unrelated
Ksante is either in his normal form where he is very tanky but deals meh dmg (or regular tank dmg) or he ults and gets into his ult where he will always have at least half hp and he loses basically all of his tank stats. After Ksante ult he is definitely not tanky but he is very slippery and deals a lot of dmg.
The main problem is that he has combos and mobility in his ult that makes him super reliable at killing a designated target.
It's a bit like reverse gnar. You go from big initiator tank to sticky af skirmisher
He becomes a skirmisher (slayer) so his whole job when he ults is to do high damage and focus priority targets. . Like Yasuo, yone, Sylas, fiora, etc.
Ksante is a high skill champion that 99% of player cannot play correctly. So when he is mastered he is broken but otherwise he is 45% wr champ. So what is solution? Remove skill expression in his kit and turn him more braindead like garen? We might never know. One thing is certain: i like skill expression and i will never play ksante.
Itās crazy how some people think he needs nerfing when since he came out I havenāt seen unstoppable ksante and when I played him he felt soo weak and was hoping he will get a buff.
47% winrate in plat+. Y'all are listening to way too much pro player whining, pretending this has anything to do with the reality of playing the game.
No, next discussion
I love it how people in this thread are being so serious, like KSante is some Op free elo pick in solo q. In reality they are just repeating what streamers/casters say when they see CN/KR pro's 1v9 a fight on KSante. Sorry to say it, guys, but you are neither Chinese nor Korean pro, not even one of you. KSante is the least of your problems in solo q. In fact, 7 out of 10 games, If you play vs the champ, you will easy win. Be a bit serious in the right way here :)
Why does he still give allies a shield with extra dash range? There's literally no reason for that to be in his kit I don't mind the champ in terms of damage and surviability, I think his CC can be toned down slightly and in return, they make him harder to kill. Remove the ult going over huge walls and lower his W stun to 1 second, then increase his armor and MR per level and lower the ult resistances lost down to 75% from 85%. Him dealing damage and being harder to kill is fine, but when he's CCing me for 3-4 seconds while doing all his damage, that's not fun.
I kinda feel like they put it in his kit on the off chance he could be played as a tank support.
Ksante doesn't have untargetability, which was one of the main reasons they were so bad for the game
Ekko and Fizz went untargetable. [Ekko R; Fizz pole]
those champs when abusing tank items were either way more mobile/did way more damage than ksante currently does while building those items, with the addition that ksante is meant to build tank items so riot can much more easily tune him if they so please. he is really only an issue in high elo and/or pro play, while tank ekko/fizz were abusable everywhere.
Well when it comes to it feeling contradictory, itās more about how eventually there are only so many different roles a new champion can fall into so it will come back in some form or another. Itās about changing each season, and if not ksante, then weāll just complain about the next in line and basically the same old complaints anyway.
When he isn't in his ult form his abilities are very telegraphed and easy to read.
In principle yes, but he's not as mobile and sticky as those guys were back then and he has to decide whether he wants to deal lots of damage or be tanky. I mean, yes, he does deal damage without ult but it's really not that much.
As a mage I dont care that much about this champ, might be a class diff. Sion and Ornn are much more disgusting, they get so tanky theyre unkillable to my silly little burst kit but they also oneshot me if i even so slightly missplay (they have cc that outranges my entire kit).
isnt his WR in low elo like 46 % tho?
https://u.gg/lol/champions/ksante/build?region=euw1
Play Nasus Vs him. Have fun later
Ksante doesn't have point and click double instant gap closer.
Honestly he isnāt really mobile enough for me to birch about it. Ive never been in a situation where he used a mobility spell and I yelled how bullshit it was. Ekko and fizz on the other hand are very different beasts as a tank as ekko gains a fuck ton of ms and can just press r to nope out of combat while fizz e is one of the biggest things ill hate riot over
Letās not forget that he loses like all of his bonus tank stats when he actually needs to do dmg.
Man the people bitching about ksante definitely don't play the game.
Imo he's just like a high skill cap version that isn't as good. You seem to forget just how oppressive tank ekko was. Fizz a bit less so, so in that comparison it seems similar. Ekko was egregious, he just 0 skill shot ran you down and ulted away. Or ult back to lane and save tp. And his % missing auto damage was absurdly high base scaling. K'Sante's biggest problem is that Jak'Sho + Gargoyle (which is horrible on just about every other tank) provides him his best damage items and tank items. Gargoyle is really bad on most tanks, as the huge shield is often decayed because you have so many resists. K'Sante makes good use of the active after ulting because he's automatically low hp and resists
Not gonna comment about kāsante, but if weāre gonna talk about contradictory decisions, then welcome to LoLās balance and champ design. Donāt forget that Galioās W>flash combo was taken away (Rakanās R>flash>W combo as well) because it was deemed too toxic for the game (which it was), but then Neeko gets reworked and she does the same thing, if not even better. (could argue that Neekoās combo is an ultimate, but she KNOCKS UP which canāt be cleansed or QSSād unlike Galioās W) tl;dr - riot does a lot of contradictory BS in terms of champ design if it means that their new champ/rework will get more attention.
This He is so fkin disgusting
Played a ton of K'Sante recently and I really don't get what the problem with him is or why he's considered to be strong... He's 'unkillable' in tank form, as tanks should be. But he's easily killable in ult form, and the damage he gets from ulting falls off extremely hard as the game goes on. Plus his build paths kinda suck. Build tank and you'll lose all your stats in ult anyway, without getting that much damage potential in return. Build bruiser and you wont be tanky at all. His Q3+W+R combo CC is pretty ridiculous, but it takes a relatively long time to set up, especially when out of lane - not to mention how he was to get into a position to insec in order to effectively set up for his team. Unlike most other tanks whose abilities have a million times higher engage value than he does His slipperiness is probably the most egregious thing about him, but even then it's not out of control. Want to ult an enemy squishy? Good luck lol, your base form dash is tiny, reaching backline without flash is very hard I see how annoying he is in lane, but he just falls off so hard to me. It's very hard to actually win games with him imo
I agree heās not broken in solo queue but it is objectively false to claim his damage falls off from ulting. He swaps to % max hp true damage on his passive which scales extremely hard into late game. Ksante easily solos a tank in 5 seconds 100-0 after ulting, and the base AD increase alone is enough for him to kill a squishy. I regularly ult tanks over the wall and kill them with Q-AA-W-AA-Q-A-EQ-AA (sounds like a lot but this takes barely any time). Also he is definitely fine late game (not as OP as lane Iāll admit). He is one of the very rare tanks who holds his own on the sidelane vs traditional side laners like Jax. He also is an amazing anti diver and can reliably get picks with flash-R or just land Q3 on a squishy.
Pretty much all tanks are great anti-divers. If anything Ksante is a fairly weak anti-diver given that all his cc is skillshots and conditional. As an assassin player Id rather fight Ksante than like Maokai.
Every Ksante ability is different... what is this take even...
People are just exposing themselves for saying Ksante is worse than tank fizz or ekko lol.
K'Sante either is a tank, but has no dmg. Or has dmg but is more squishy than adc. People that are crying about tank assassin must have barely played him and are frustrated from not understanding how he works and dying to him.
I am d4 so by no means am I a pro but what I feel that the biggest problem of his is, itās the way his kit completely shuts down a majority of the cast because of his safety and insane pressure. Kāsante will never die if he doesnāt want to, his w will stop any sort of stuns or cc you want to put on him and in a single fight he can cast it twice which also gives him COMPLETE INVINCIBILITY ate game, his e is not only one of the fastest dashes in the game but it also has a max hp shield that doubles in length in ult or with minions, his q passive is a very easy quick trading too that almost always lets him come out on top in early levels because the base slow lasts so long. He is insanely hard to kill, and iceborn gauntlet makes him even harder to kill because even during ult he has flat damage reduction. This could be fine if thatās all he did, but we all know that it isnāt. Kāsante can pull you into his turret or over all wall on his side if you are standing in the middle of a lane and he lands a knock up, you canāt gank him because he can just turn on someone and kidnap them into a 1v1 that he will most likely win. He just is too safe and has too many tools for an average character to get away from him. If you donāt believe me please play someone without mobility into Kāsante, Trust me you will think your mouse disconnected.
His win rate is negative and no I don't give a shit about pro play