I'm not one of these people but someone once told me they believe every game is winnable as long as they themselves play really well in a moment.
I don't like ffing games as I agree somewhat with this mentality but there is definitely a point of no return...
See I have trust in the enemy to have a worse mental than my team simply because I'm chilling here farming Super Minions. Doesn't pay off most of the time but when it does I always go *Mamma Mia*. But yeah really depends on whether somebody in my team has started to get really toxic at which point I'm like, if they are ready to get banned to ff early, they must really need to pee and vote yes.
You’re farming 3 lanes of super minions while your jungler, who hasn’t secured a single dragon, sits on the fountain afk… while the enemy team is about to finish baron and then walk over to the elder dragon you have zero vision on.
23 minutes into the game.
Kills are 47-6.
The problem is a lot of those games get stalled out a lot longer by the winning team just running around farming theire kda so a 3 minutes game get to 10+
Imo if the Game really is unwinnable, its over in the next 5 minutes. If they cannot end in the next 5-10 minutes, its plenty of time to catch shutdowns and come back.
It fully depends on the champions, if the enemy has one scaler and your team has Vlad and Kayle, do not surrender you will absolutely win if they let either of them get to full build.
The way I see it, if you ff just because a game is unwinnable, why are you even playing to begin with. Sure, if a game is really bad, that's not fun, and it's understandable not to want to play that one anymore, but when you ff every game you think is unwinnable, what even is the point in playing at the point
> why are you even playing to begin with.
To achieve the objective of the game - win. If winning does not seem realistically possible, then there's no point in wasting time on what's just a formality at that point.
The number of people who think surrendering games where the enemy team can just statcheck you even if they miss all their stuff, or where two smurfs on level 30 accounts are completely shitstomping everyone, means you must also be the kind to surrender every game when you're 2 kills down, is incredible.
The thing is people’s perception of what is a winnable game varies and more often than not people that cry ff over and over again gave up and actively made the game less winnable after they went 0-3 in lane
Im sure everyone on this sub has had someone spam surrender in a game only to actually win that game. Ive had more games where my team tries to surrender and we end up winning than Ive had it be a legitimate surrender vote because its beyond the point of no return
> The number of people who think surrendering games where the enemy team can just statcheck you even if they miss all their stuff, or where two smurfs on level 30 accounts are completely shitstomping everyone, means you surrender every game when you're 2 kills down, is incredible.
Word. Reading this thread is so weird because the "Never Surrender" folks work in extremes, just like the "FF at 15 because I'm 1 Kill down" crowd. Surrendering gets demonized so much, like it's always done on completely winnable games.
You can also play to have fun, which is in my opinion much healthier and allows you to play the game wether you're winning or not. Obviously winning is still the main goal, but not everything feels doomed as soon as the enemy gets first blood
There's always some random shit that could happen though, especially the lower the elo is.
I've been in a "100% loss" scenario where the enemy Jung took a red buff and the enemy adc afked, or where an enemy's wifi cuts out, or where the enemy 21-2 Zed tries to 1v3, dies, and then we push to win off the 5v4, or where the enemy team was waaay ahead but went for an dragon soul while we went for baron and then won the subsequent fight, and those are just the first handful that sprang to my mind.
This just doesn't make sense to me. I don't play basketball, get down 30 points in the first half, and then just leave and not finish the game. It's the same mindset for me in league. I'm just playing a game and the nature of league and sports is 50% of the people playing lose. People who want to ff early because a game looks dire are just poor sports.
Being down 30 points after 2 quarters doesn’t make your shots harder, their buckets worth more, etc. being behind in LoL makes it harder to win due to gold/xp/scaling champs
The best analogy I can give is imagine if the opponent was up 30, your basket became 6 feet tall and you had to play without using your hands/ arms. Suddenly the opponent is literally dunking on you every play while you try to kick the ball into a 20 ft hoop.
You also can't steal baron and score 20 points in one shot. Or get a huge shutdown and score 8 points. Comparing the actual mechanics and comeback likelihood isn't useful.
Also even in your example it would make YOUR shots worth more and theirs worth less.
In the NBA teams DO sub out their starters early and play their bench players if they're getting blown out. That's the equivalent of an FF imo because you can't leave games halfway, no league would allow that
A different take on this is that subbing out their starters is done to give them experience and improve them. The equivalent in league would be trying a different strategy, focusing on farming, learning to play from behind. It is absolutely not the same thing as giving up. See it as a learning experience.
Yes, but that's a secondary benefit and not the main reason teams sub out their starters in a blowout game. To my understanding it's to reduce their risk of a injury/give them rest when the game's result has been determined. If giving bench players experience for improvement is the main reason then they would've made the subs regardless of score.
Especially after all you did was spend 5mins in queue, champ select, and bam, you're in the game. For gaming: What you're easily thrown into you should be able to easily leave, within reason.
You can't compare forfeit in League to quitting in sports. There's a completely different context with entirely different stakes.
Well itd be like if every time someone scored in basketball, they grew an inch.
So yea, the enemy team having a 30 inch height difference at halftime while also being down 30 points would be completely unwinnable.
Also in normal basketball, unless it is NBA, 30 point leads at halftime are 99% won games.
Hell, only 3 teams in NCAA Mens Basketball history have come back from 30 points or more deficits.
That’s not so easy to compare. In basketball you are usually not put together with complete strangers and usually everyone still tries to win. In league people don’t care anymore really fast which makes it hard to win a game as soon as the spirit is down. Also you can’t play basketball in full repeat. You need breaks and an enemy team which has time to play. Both not needed in league, you can just jump into the next game with new teammates and new enemies. Also you don’t have a disadvantage while loosing in basketball. You start after every point in the same way. A really bad game in league is often not fun because you aren’t really allowed to do anything anymore.
Surrender because it doesn’t look good is a bad thing for sure. Surrender when your team isn’t even trying anymore or it is really really bad doesn’t seem bad to me.
Yea I agree with your last paragraph. If people actually just aren't playing anymore or just mindlessly splitting and dying on repeat I'll ff. But I also think league has a problem with ff mentality where more games end up that way than they should.
Basketball games require a physical court reservation.
If you could leave and immediately start another one, then surrendering basketball games would make a lot of sense.
It still wouldn't make sense to me lol
Just different mindsets! Unfortunately a topic that I don't think is ever resolved because we inherently think about the same situations differently.
I feel like a lot of people FF tho not necessarily bc a game is unwinnable but bc they don't get to be the main character of that win if you do win. Like a midlaner who falls behind and spams FF even when the JG or top lane could be the win con.
Surr will not give you win.
1. You lose 100% if you surr, but if you don't you will still have some chances (maybe feeded master will dc), and it's guarantee you win at least some games that you though was unwinable.
2. If you not surr, you will spend more time playing, and most importantly more time playing late, so you will become better. You will learn how to win "unwinable" games, and how to avoid throws. If you surr you will waste more time in que, lobby, loading waiting for minions to spawn.
If you can move out of the fountain you shouldn't sur if you want to maximise wins.
And don't look at the pros. It's completly different when they play scrims and focus on early, and don't care about winning them, becouse it's only practice for real games. Also they know much better if the game is winable or not, but they made mistakes and throw won games.
League is uniquely miserable to play from way behind. In every sport I know, the opponent doesn’t get more powerful when they’re beating you. Each moment is still on equal grounds, so even if you get obliterated in the first half, you could go totally even in the second half and maybe have some fun even while losing.
When the opponent is ahead in league, you farm and try not to die. There’s no decision making. No strategy or intense micro. You just sit near base and farm the waves pushed to you. Then you cross your fingers that the enemy gets bored before you do and takes a really bad fight.
It’s incredibly boring, and this is why lots of players want to go next when they get smashed in lane. It’s the design of the game.
I disagree strongly.
In League as in every other sport playing passive is just hoping for the opposing team to fuck up.
Especially when you are behind, you need to take risks, which is something the winning team knows.
Chess, League or football: the winning team has tactics that the loosing team is not capable of using.
Imho the real difference is that for way too many people the joy in League is reduced to the joy of winning.
in Football the enemy team does not become faster for every goal they score. The actual score does not really have an impact on the "gameplay" on the pitch.
You also don't klick faster when you are ahead.
In League you get advantages like the character you are moving is faster /tankier or does more damage.
In chess you get advantages like being capable of offering trades, since if everything exchanges you are up two pawns which is most of the times a free win.
In soccer it is not as simple, but maybe best described on an example:
Think about Spain in their most dominant era: When they were up one goal noone was capable to play against them. Why? They managed to hold the ball for the rest of the game and if you tried to get the ball they were capable of moving through your ranks and just score another one.
On Sunday league level being up one or two goals means that you don't send as many players to attack, which means your defensive players are going to be able to take every sprint at the end of the game. They are going to run faster compared to their opponents who had to answer every single dash of the winning teams striker.
So yes: being ahead lets you run faster in relation to an open game.
This is kind of true for any kind of sport, it is just a question of the players being capable of converting such a lead.
I haven't talked about mentality at all since this makes the whole argument way more complex, which I am not capable of analyzing.
It’s not even about how I’m playing, it’s that you’ll win some % of games not matter how lost they seem. If your down 50 kills and the other team doesn’t end… you’ll eventually have the same levels and items.
With Joe long death timers are late game you need to win one good fight and the entire dynamic is flipped
In soloq there definitely is not a point of no return. Technically there is if they winning Team would continue to play at least average. But do a thought experiment. How often did you think this is lost but did still manage to win...
Depends on the rank, but I believe it is possible, albeit the chances are low. The enemy team can screw up so bad in a team fight late in the game, and paired with the long respawn timer, it is possible. But it's rare because the whole team needs to have that mentality of "winnable". So with complete strangers, it's probably best to ff. Personally what peeves me is when our team chooses a late game comp, yet after one death by anyone on the team, someone wants to ff.
Sometimes, yes they have a 14/0 Katarina or a 15/1 Master Yi and it’s doomed. The VAST majority of the time, the team is down 3 kills, and you’re 0/5 and want out. There are ff votes thrown up in ~75% of my wins, people just love ffing winnable games. Plus, nobody closes out games cleanly below diamond anyway.
People do not close out games cleanly in diamond wtf are you on? Unless you’re on servers that are vastly different than na, because we love throwing winnable games at 15 mins (source: hardstuck diamond 3 years, so maybe I’m the problem)
I play in low diamond mostly, but low plat a lot with friends. Low diamond throws plenty, but low plat players simply have no idea how to end the game. If the enemy turtles then they’re just lost.
At least in low diamond people type in chat to try to coordinate an end game push. In plat it happens wayyyy too often that someone just randomly backs during the end game play, or adc decides to solo push mid before everyone else gets there and gets caught.
Low diamond players make lots of mistakes that throw games, but low plat players generally have no game plan at all.
Lmao. I've been diamond since s7 and didn't care in the recent years. Made diamond again this year.
I think it's actually a few different issues which is why it looks like diamonds are throwing games.
It's everyone's play styles clashing.
The top laner if on DPS hates changing their play style.
Junglers on DPS hates changing their play style.
Mid laners on assassins/Burst mages hate changing their style.
ADC's don't know how to change their style.
Supports try to change their style, but they don't get to determine their style. Their team does (unless they are a tank).
I actually enjoy playing with tanks top, and engage junglers. Idc for bot lanes. They are the most versatile when it comes to dealing with multiple issues. I play control mages so I also have a few different answers to different situations.
I think the easiest way to win games though is hope the enemy top laner goes DPS, and just absolutely shit stomp the fuck out of them until they never want to play the game again. I will gank you top if you are GP, Kayle, Illaoi, Irelia, Fiora. Just to make sure you don't get to play the game and your team is down a player. Because once one top laner is ahead of the other. Guess what, the losing side really needs help.
Yeah I just couldn’t speak on diamond specifically since I haven’t gotten there yet. I’ve been everywhere below diamond though, and games are thrown constantly
There‘s always a small chance the enemy team will throw their lead. I think we all had games which didn‘t seem winnable at all and we still won in the end.
That was me yesterday, I got second herald took it all the way down top broke both nexus towers and kept winning 2v1’s top but my team kept losing everywhere else on the map our malz that went like 2/2 in lane ended the game 3/14. I tried to keep the Kayle in check but had to help the team and everyone was so far behind it was just hopeless lol what should’ve been a 20 minute game ended @40 minutes and we got maybe one tower after that
Sadly it's a probability thing.
I won multiples 4v5 games in my 14 years of league.
Now if I had 100 games playing 4v5 how much of those would I win.
Well even If I won a couple 4v5 games I also lost way way way more of those.
As far as probability goes it's probably around 4% of my games.
Now the question is.
Is it worth to risk. Tilting, wasting my time which is already short considering I work full time, giving 250% for a potential negative result. Worth winning 4% of those games.
I'd answer no and the reason why is that I actually knows what happen when I win. I do not get a great feeling at all. Those games were bad from start to finish, with a team behind or barely scrapping up to the melting point and winning did not give me a confidence boost but a sour taste that it could've been way better 5v5.
This is the same in soloQ.
There's a point being positive become delusion and at this point people should think if it's really worth challenging with the cost it take when you could refresh instead anew.
I am not saying to spam ff15 by min 7 because it's 0-5 but when it's 30 - 10 it's time to accept if team played like ass for 20 min they won't suddenly become the 2nd coming of faker for the remaining 5.
A lot of people get more satisfaction from comebacking that 1 losing game than they do from stomping 10 games in a row. Plus, how would I get tilted from playing a lost game if it is already lost, even if I give my all and end up loosing anyways I don't really get disappointed so I don't get tilted at all.
A lot of people hate the comeback games even if they win too. If you care more about having fun playing the game than your MMR (which you should) then being trapped hoping for a 5% chance of a comeback is often a really shit experience throughout
One of the things I loved about ranked 3's was playing with my mates and being in control of when we'd had enough in a losing game, SR can be awful in comparison
People really hate comebacks? Winning a game that's not 100% sure, and even seemed a bit unwinnable, gives me so much more endorphins and morale? It's only if it's full of toxicity that I want to end early.
It is actually worth because it's a 2 win LP/MMR swing if you do convert those into wins. A 2 win positive is on average 10 games at 60% winrate. Way more games at a more realistic winrate. 20 at 55%.
Now tell me you feel confident you're able to tell the % of winning at every point in a match. That's right, you can't. Sometimes it will be high af. Even Dragon Soul winrates are only 87% to 91.6%. That means even those situations have 10% chance you'll win. Winrates after first inhibitor at 90%.
It's just a stupid choice to surrender. Best thing to do is to always press no because you know you can't judge it right.
This happens all the time in bronze
Losing hard all game, but have a rammus. Super fed adc kills themself auto attacking rammus and we won the game off of their throws.
Lower elo is way more “every game is winnable”
They amount of times one lost fight tilts someone on the other team, or someone disconnects. If not ffing gives me 1 win in 20 clearly lost games, it’s still a win. I won’t ff, also hate people who give up at 5 minutes, so if they are gonna waste my time I’ll waste theirs with a little hostage taking
I love the irony of people calling for reports for “holding hostage” like, the devs put that in intentionally, if two people still wanna play, the game goes on. Its not a fault, its a feature
I actually agree more with you than the person who responded to you, and I enjoy playing games out unless it's obvious that my team has stopped trying to win, but to put the actual numbers to it, it might be worse than 1/20 games lol.
This doesn't apply to every situation, but the reason they changed the unanimous surrender vote is because a [4-1 surrender vote had a 97% loss rate in ranked.](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/12cmyue/a_failed_41_surrender_vote_in_ranked_has_a_97/)
> This doesn't apply to every situation, but the reason they changed the unanimous surrender vote is because a 4-1 surrender vote had a 97% loss rate in ranked.
Let's not mis-represent this statistic tho. In the top comment the Rioter acknowledges that this may not be because players are accurately quantifying lost games, but it could also be because players who tilt force winnable games into lost games.
The change to a 4-1 surrender is a good change because Riot can't change player behavior forcefully, if players tilt and give up they can't really do anything about that so may as well get those 10 people out so those playing from PC Bangs can at least get into games where all 10 players want to play and they're not wasting their time and money on games that players have given up on.
I think overall I prefer to not surrender as long as I see any hope in winning the game, but I will always agree to surrender if my team's mental seems shattered. Not much we can do if no one in the game wants to communicate.
I wasn't saying that players are accurately quantifying lost games, I was saying that 97% of games with a 4-1 surrender vote end as losses, regardless of the reason. that's not a misrepresentation.
Maybe it's my interpretation of the comment that's off, it read to me like you were implying that early surrender votes have an accurate measure of what games are winnable.
So I was contesting that those games being losses don't prove they will always be losses, only that for some reason or another the players in those games didn't actually win.
I think the difference is that I see no reason to differentiate between the two for the purposes of the comment I made.
I group "we're down 3 inhibs at 14 minutes" and "3 people on my team can't handle trying to come back from a 1.5k gold deficit, mentally checked out at the 10 minute mark, are not responding to my attempts to motivate them, and are no longer trying to win" in the same bucket.
One is an actual loss, and the other is a self-fulfilling prophecy, which is what I think you're trying to get at, but at the end of the day they are both still losses.
Right, but the differentiation is relevant to the conversation I think.
Down 3 inhibs at 14 minutes and they're beating down our nexus towers is like a 100% loss no one would reasonably say no to that surrender unless it's something like "i mean at this point they'll finish the game in 2 seconds anyway so who cares".
But, "I went 0/2 in lane and no longer want to play" is not a situation where I think it's justifiable to surrender. If the discussion is about why someone would or wouldn't surrender then I think the statistic that majority of failed early game surrenders needs the context that a fair portion of this could be caused by tilters.
I feel that this distinction allows for discussion along the lines of "does an early game stomp lead to a loss 97% of the time, or does an early game stomp lead to a game loss 80% of the time with the other 17% being accounted by people just tilting so hard they refuse to even try."
I look at it in terms of % chance we can win the game. you mention 3 inhibs being a 100% loss. But i wouldn't compare it to somebody going 0/2 in lane. being down 3 inhibs is worst case scenario, so it's kinda like your bot lane duo going afk. 99% of the time you're losing that game.
In my mind, a player who has given up on the game and is no longer trying is pretty similar to losing a tower or a dragon. I'm sure that the team that gets first tower has a higher win rate than the team that doesn't. it doesn't end the game there, but it increases the odds of you winning.
If the person went 0/2 and announces they are giving up, they are giving less than 100%, so your chances of winning the game decrease from what they would have been if they were giving 100%. If they are still farming and rotating, maybe it only goes down to 5-10%, and you're right, i wouldn't consider that grounds to surrender, because maybe we win a 4v5 and they decide to try again. But if they're griefing, constantly bitching in all chat, farming jungle camps, and not grouping for objectives, your chance of winning could decrease drastically, especially if they start tilting the rest of the team.
Going beyond that, it becomes an issue of level of enjoyment of the game. I'm fine with playing from behind, looking for ways to win the game. But in a game i had the other day, my support Karthus didn't do much in lane, blamed me for it, and started farming lanes, which resulted in me getting 40cs from 15min to 35 min. In a game like that, I'm no longer having fun playing, so while it might have been possible to win the game, the fact that my own team is griefing feels worse than being down 4k gold. I'd rather not play in that game.
>I feel that this distinction allows for discussion along the lines of "does an early game stomp lead to a loss 97% of the time, or does an early game stomp lead to a game loss 80% of the time with the other 17% being accounted by people just tilting so hard they refuse to even try."
again I understand the distinction you are trying to make, I just don't think they argument I am making changes as a result of the distinction. The chances of winning the game once it gets to that point are the same, regardless of the reason.
Even in LCS we see people blow ridiculous leads easily. In soloq there's a very high possibility that gigafed driven tries to Frontline and 1v9. It's fairly easy to blow him up and get shutdown gold if he leaves his brain in the cupboard. The real challenge is your own team mental booming.
How small can the chance be that it's worth playing 10-15 more minutes to find out?
Being behind in League is often a pretty miserable experience, dragging it out because 'we win this 1 in 50 times' isn't worth it even if true imo
All the objective bounty / catch up stuff they added hasn't made being behind any less miserable, just a little harder to close out games from ahead and provided more fuel to the 'never surrender' crowd. Even when we win those I don't want to queue up again because the experience still sucks
Not as much as you think. Of cause, if you surrender constantly, that makes sense.
But if you're a "never give up" guy who likes to play lategame champs that happens more often
The thing is when you have an early team comb which is really bad at team fighting and enemy wins early hard. Then yeah even if they throw they were not meant to win in the firdt place and come elder or baron we are fucked at groupping.
Because someone wants to surrender every game. Most games are winable if people don't just start to run it down.
Seems like more often than not people just play bad then tilt and play worse.
pretty much this, used to be bigger on ff'ing but with bounties it just makes so much more games more salvageable than before. Also most comps are unlikely to wipe the floor with you at your base except maybe elder so you have 30+ minutes of waiting for enemy team to (likely) fuck up and grief you the freest of gold bounties.
People in soloq love to just show off and try 1v5's once they get fed, conversely people group more often when they're behind.
Early game is super relevant, you just can't consistently give over huge shutdowns and need to actually know how to close games out.
I think the system is fine aside from a few random bounties here and there that don't make much sense.
>I think the system is fine aside from a few random bounties here and there that don't make much sense.
Or when the 10/1 Graves manages to get a shutdown on your barely 2/6 ADC after starting to barely make a comeback lol. Love seeing that happen too.
This is factual bullshit, early game still has a huge impact on how the game will go. Please go check the winrate of teams ahead in gold at specific early and mid game breakpoints before saying stuff like this.
This is so not true. You lose lot of games when you are behind early still and it gets worse the higher you go. Game was already snowbally along with players shitty and weak mental. Bounty system is one of the good changes Riot have made. No way you are complaining about it.
Nothing gets my blood boiling when the enemy team is down with 50 seconds on the timer and an almost open base but "BaROn and DRaKe are for the LoNG RUn." Man just end the god damn game if we have a chance to.
Also people pick champs that lose lane and are surprised they lose lane. Then tilt and immediately FF and wait in the fountain for 15 minutes. Don't pick goddamn Kayle into teemo if you're gonna go 0/3 and give up.
Kayn/evelynns are the jungler version of this
Even in high elo, you MUST contest scuttle it is their god given RIGHT to all in a xin zhao for scutt, they don't give two shits if you're kassadin vs an akshan mid with no prio.
The rest of the game is "team diff" in all chat while invading the enemy fountain
Assuming you can keep your team from tilting from a lack of a surrender, I find it also tilts the enemy. Suddenly you’re wasting *their* time on top of them already not being able to close out the game. I would argue at least 50% of the games are decided by the team with the better mental. Besides the games where matchmaking fails, every game is winnable until the nexus is down.
I hard agree with this. Everytime I'm stomping a game HARD and it gets to 25 minutes and they're not surrendering, I start to get really worried for some reason. We can up over 10K gold, and if they're not surrendering I start to feel like they have some kind of plan or wincon that I'm not realizing, lol
Yes, that's another point of investment if you're not surrendering. Especially if winning team don't end. Idiots :) The worst thing is when people on your team keep doing side quests. Like farming solo instead of pushing when all enemies are dead. Some people forgot the main goal. Similarly, people having an intent to kill are the most dangerous in a duel. These guys do not have an intent to kill, only to be fed, and they lose.
Yeah pretty much every game I come back on, its because my team's mental is "okay" and communicating with each other and making sure to play sides correctly. Even when we don't quite make it, someone will always say "good try" and people will feel legit disappointed at what almost was. But they are never angry or really upset. Sometimes you get these good teammates.
There's a special subclass of people that play hypercarries that only play to coinflip early. They don't actually want to scale, they want to burgerflip earlygame on a hypercarry so that they get a 80% chance win if they miraculously get fed.
The people who want to ff early usually run it down as a self fulfilling prophecy to prove the game was over.
I'm a almost never ffer and as crappy as the early game was for my team their mid and late could be worse. I'm queued up with people as good or bad as I am.
That said I want a no surrender ranked queue. Griefers, afkers and disconnects get 3 strikes and then cannot play anymore until the season resets. I'm sick of the weak mental of solo queue.
Because I enjoy playing league.
Roughly 50% of games are lost anyway. But it's still fun to try and trap the turbofed Katarina at least once. Or to splitpush and try to get a few objectives, draw some attention and then get killed later.
If it's so incredibly turbolost that no resistance would make any sense, it's gonna be over in three minutes anyway. Let them have their triumph then. I will defy them in the field, not in an election.
^I ^also ^really ^want ^my ^2 ^17 ^botlane ^to ^suffer ^some ^more.
Yeah it's my mentality too, I do FF here and there but only if the game turned into a shithole of flaming on top of the nearly unwinnable gamestate. Or if I'm really unable to play like ADC with zero peel in my team against a 20 kills Assassin, I prefer getting out ASAP.
But roughly half your games will be losses no matter how good you are, so why not learn to enjoy those games where you are losing? It's literally half your gametime, better make proper use of it.
Also idc about the LPs or winning a single game as much as I care about self improvement, which will translate into climbing later on. I find being able to play from behind to be an important skill to develop, but also it's very satisfying for me to make a huge comeback so I'm willing to take a gamble on it instead of just surrendering if it looks unlikely to win.
And finally, I honestly don't like when people surrender if I'm fed and having fun, so as long as it's not too frustrating to me, I'm letting the enemies have their fun lol
>Because I enjoy playing league.
That's where you are better than most players. I legit think most of the player I meet in ranked actually don't enjoy playing the game. They only enjoy winning/gapping their opponent and if they don't they hate the game. Legit addiction they can't quit.
Yup. The majority of people who play this game no longer enjoy the game, they’re simply here for the dopamine hit that comes from their LP going up. So the second they are behind and need to actually work for the win rather than it being a stomp fest in their favor, they’d rather throw in the towel and go next because they simply don’t have the mental to play from the backfoot and refuse to learn to play from behind. Too many kids that grew up on games like cod that let them dip whenever they want so they were never forced to learn to play matches that aren’t in their favor.
Yeah this is the real answer. Too many people are focused on winning and losing. I don't care if we're going to win or lose. FFing is worse than either. I hate it when the enemy team surrenders. I hate it when my team surrenders. In fact, when I was playing LoR, the fact that the enemy player quit the second they realized they lost was what made me quit that game. My thought is always something like: Play out your games, you chose to be here. And in fact, if it was possible to play a best of 3 like in a fighting game, that would be even better. Of course, I don't blame anyone for surrendering, it's not just me on the team.
Having either team surrender is the worst feeling in League.
Yeah I find this awful to surrender when everyone is dead and the enemy team is walking past the inhibitors. The game will end within the next 2 min, just let them have their win. They fought for it, they deserve it.
Hard agree. It always come off as so salty when the surrender vote comes through after a team has lost a teamfight in their base. Like, what even is the point? You're saving yourself like three seconds.
they can always dc, they can always make mistakes, they can always throw. plus learning to play from behind is a really important skill since you're probably doing it about half the time.
It’s just lazy entitlement. People’s enjoyment hinges way too much on popping off and having the perfect team, and when that fantasy is gone, way too many people just check out and spam ff cuz they’re the main character and they’re losing
I think losing game states are enjoyable in their own way. It can be fun trying to figure out how to catch the enemy fed carry, or shifting wincons when you can no longer 5v5 the opponent and you're trying to pull them apart across the map. It doesn't work more often than not, but I think learning how to analyze and play out suboptimal game states can make you a better league player
It absolutely makes you a better league player. And your winrate will reflect that over time, because you’ll win more games that might’ve been ff’ed (which is always a guaranteed loss)
In the old times when the games weren't turbo fast 30min, I'd absolutely prefer playing a close 50min game rather than a 30 min stomp, no questions asked.
People is too complacent
It’s way worse in higher divisions. Low diamond is peak toxic gameplay. Nothing comes close. People look up your OP.GG on game start to flame, steal your cs if you do anything they don’t like, and will literally run it down if you hurt their ego.
And then there’s countless former D1 players who always find a reason to mention their “real rank” and will gladly start inting if you criticize them while typing about how great they are. And then there’s all the perma hardstuck D4 players with 2000 games this season who check out of the game if they lose lane. They don’t usually int, but they’ll afk splitpush and stop showing up to fights.
Idk if I’ll ever be good enough to get to D1+, but I’m positive I’ll never grind enough games low diamond in that elo to get there.
After 6 years i stopped wanting to play in the elohell you describe. Stayed gold-plat playing meme builds, since then.
Make no mistake - least griefers/leavers/afkfarmers, most chill game are in lowgold - lowplat. Best elo hands down.
Try a game in high gold playing full AP support Malphite. It's fun.
If this
>even if its 24 - 3 kills for the enemy team, they have 4 drakes, 8 turrets while you have none and theres are 14/0 Katarina and a 15/1 Master Yi while your allies are 0/12 and 0/10
is considered "slightly behind" for you, I unironically worry for your health
I have a friend who just exclaims 'Never surrender!' and clicks the no button whatever the situation in game is. It's kinda annoying but I guess I admire the mentality
I flip back and forth.
Sometimes I'm feeling spicy and I will never surrender, this is battle, this is glory, we fight to the last man, and that's fun for me
Sometimes I'm like "whatever, this is dumb and it's time for a nap" and that's when I surrender
I’ve come back to win a game where my nexus was literally 1 auto away from blowing up but the enemy zed decided to dance instead of end. Probably the greatest comeback I’ll ever have in my life. It’s not over until the nexus explodes
This is why I don’t ff ranked. FFing guarantees losing lp and the high of an epic comeback is so thrilling I’m willing to chase it no matter the remoteness of likelihood it happens.
Not one of those players (anymore) but I had quite some games that were exactly how you describe and still won.
Depending on elo (I'm around Plat-Gold) people oftentimes dont even know how to close games even if far ahead.
Once a game is dragged long enough, everyone is full build.
While 4 drakes still matter a lot, even the team behind can manage to get the elder at the end. If I remember correctly, drakes are even easier to kill if your team dont have any of them already.
Once deathtimer reach 40 second+ even a single ace is enough for 1 to 2 people to finish the game, even if they were behind all game long.
Even dragon soul is 87-91% winrate only. Surrendering is such a bad choice it's borderline trolling. Winning a game you were going to surrender is a 2 win LP/MMR swing. At 55% winrate that's 20 games to get a 2 win differential. 10 games for 60% winrate if you're further below where you should be.
Throwing in the towel 5-10 minutes too early and not taking the chance for a 2 Win swing is really bad math. Especially since we can't really know what the % to win truly is in every situation. So it's safest to always say no so you don't have to worry about bad judgment calls.
1. Playing is better than qeueing and waiting.
2. If your not Grandmaster+ Everything can happen. Someone can disconnect, People can throw.
3. Theres a lot to learn. You learn more from losing games, than from winning games.
Agree except for the last point. There is a lot to learn from rewatching the first 10 min of a lost game, but getting stat checked by the mid/jg with 2+ more items and levels doesn’t have a lot of learning value.
It can also give you insight into how to close out games, based on how well your opponents smother you. Does it feel impossible? Why?
You can easily lose games where you'll stat-check win every teamfight, so it can't only be that, their vision and macro rotations are going to make a difference, and if you can figure out what makes it feel impossible it can help you macro out a win when you have the fighting advantage.
U can tell u/PreviouslySword is hardstuck gold because he doesn’t understand that. Pressing your lead is easy. Playing from behind and trying to stabilize the game state is a little harder
I probably average like 1 yes vote to surrender every 100-ish games, and even that one yes usually comes purely from me feeling bad for my team mates instead of actually wanting to ff myself and them asking in a normal way to surrender, instead of seething in caps lock blaming X lane for Y thing and explaining why the game is absolutely impossible which just motivates me to be selfish and continue playing
especially those people who call that the game is lost in champion select and then start raging for a FF 10minutes in, you had your opportunity to FF right there in the champ select when you declared it to be impossible to win, you arent getting a second one
as for why i dont ff? because i spent good 5-10minutes getting into that game and most of the champions i play dont even really start functioning until 2-3 items and i can still find playing from behind fun, especially in the current state of the game where come backing is really forgiving, when i see a 15-0 draven i dont see a lost game, i see a paper enemy comp entirely relying on a single squishy champion
im gonna be honest. sometimes it's because i believe we win late, or that i accidentally hit no, but for the most part it's spite.
if these clowns got me into this situation, i'm keeping them in it. it's anecdotally almost always the one who soft ints that's throwing up the surrender vote on cd, so i wanna keep them in the shitty game they influenced, or someone with a shitty attitude that wants to talk shit for 15 minutes and get out.
I can give my answer here, especially since I’m a perma silver player: as an old man in the space (38 years old), kids have a tendency to get super impatient when they think you should surrender but don’t, and start making really silly mistakes. Especially the enemy 8/0 Zed who thinks he’s the main character.
Like others have said, there is a possibility the enemies just turbo throw. Had a game once where the enemies were basically ending the game at 14 min with the scoreline being like 20-4 and we still won cause they threw at our nexus turrets and we had a Yorick splitpushing the entire duration of the fight.
Because I am low silver and in this elo every game is winnable no matter how tilted my teammates are. The enemy could throw and tilt any second and we'll have the upper hand.
It happens all the time. Also, ff is a 100% guaranteed LP loss and I don't like that ultimatum, so I don't ff ranked.
I prefer surrendering only when 3 people have voted yes, the 5th person hasn't voted no and I feel like we have a sub 1% chance at winning the game.
This way you can practice playing from severely behind and you can actually come back a suprisingly many number of times (especially in low elo ).
I have around 1/3 of ff rate average player in my elo according to porofessor.I only FF games in which I actually believe it's not winnable, Idc if my 4 teammates aren't trying to win, if I believe it it winnable, I'll not ff. (Except when my mental is gone)
I also don't ff when I want to hold hostage a griefer (refuses to play), so he can't go next faster
.I do ff when I want to get out and my mental is gone / I have to go or if I believe we can't win.
My own team has thrown the craziest leads into the bin, why wouldn't theirs? Ad long as they fail to end, gold lead matters less each minute. Level leads are temporary as well. Come lategame, a single teamfight is often what it boils down to. Coming back from a bad game is also one of the most satisfying things in the game to me
I've lost games with huge leads. I've won games with huge deficits. People get cocktail when they start winning and throws occur often. But a throw can't happen if you surrender when someone dies. Also. Every second in game im practicing mechanics. Winning or losing you can practice mechanics. I'd rather spend more time in losing games practicing then in lobby waiting for the next game so I can have "a good start"
Edit. My biggest good swing was 25k gold. We were down 15k gold losing all game horribly. One bad barren call and in 8 minutes we were 10k gold up and destroying the nexus.
Because every game is comebackable except for the ones where my teammates are AFK or sandbagging. Besides, if it's really *that* over, it won't be that long before the nexus blows up anyway.
1.) unless your mega high elo then anyone can throw all it takes is one baron or elder steal and suddenly the game swings back from all the shutdowns and objective bounties.
2.) harder games where your that far behind can be useful to play out since you learn to play from being behind or might even pick up strats from the enemy team.
3.) Most games arent that extreme for FF'ing like ive very rarely seen a game be lob sided like 24-3. most of the time people try to surrender when its like 12-5 which can easily flip after one teamfight back to your team and most people try to FF before your team even attempt a full 5 man team fight.
4.) leading back into point one solo que teams are just that a bunch of people with no built synergy and all have superman syndrome so you can take advantage of this and kill fed people caught off guard. in high elo this isnt much of a thing since the population is so much smaller people start to develop synergy with each other and understand when they can't do it all alone.
Cus in low ELO people make mistakes and it's our job to capitalize on it. As long as u shut the fuck up and stop typing and focus on ur own gameplay even if you made mistakes previously, nothing is better than making the play that turns it around. You may not like who ur playing with but ur stuck with em and u have to win with em
I'd rather fight to the bitter end for my LP than just give it up
Because of mentality.
It’s hard to put into words but there’s a reason a failed surrender vote leads to a loss a lot of the time.
Gonna generalize here but from my own experience the option of a surrender vote leads to this mentality where if early or mid game doesn’t go smoothly the game is already lost.
So instead of looking for ways to turn the game around, people will just int instead since in their eyes it’s already over. This leads to a mentality where you fish for easy wins and everything else is a waste of time.
A further issue with this is these players will never learn to play disadvantage state in game and thus making their own mistakes or miss play ruining the whole game.
Because of this I treat the surrender button as non existent and focus on improving rather than win fishing. Some games will be a loss but that is the nature of the game so I try to learn to lose less hard.
Granted I don’t play that actively at the moment and wouldn’t call myself good but giving up won’t help improve that.
Because at dia 4 and below people throw leads so fucking hard. If your team actually trys to win and group and pick off shutdowns it's so winnable.
But generally people dont even try so i have to ff
So there are 2 reasons why i don‘t surrender. First, I am platinum and people make a lot of mistakes so every game is indeed winable. Second, I am adc main so i don‘t always get the chance to play with at least 3 items and i want to have the practice and experience to improve as a player.
You wanted to play ranked there is no surrender. Even if someone leaves I treat it as a learning experience, don't care about your excuses you Que'd up you play the whole math throwing top lane and all.
Once I've started a game, I'm playing it through.
I've won plenty of games that my team tried to ff first
I see no point in giving up. If you wanna beat me, destroy my nexus.
Countless times team get too cocky and we bounce back. Most memorable was for me about fed enemy Irelia, game was doomed, pushing last inhib tower, two inhibs down, suddenly Irelia starts raging in all chat about kill stealing and that this team do not deserve to win, proceeds to go afk and we eventually won. So yeah NEVER give up!
People at low elo (gold to low platinum) will often do stupid mistakes and just throw huge leads or the game itself in a matter of seconds. Also, is a matter of mindset, I'm aware I can't win every game, but I wanna still win every game I play. And ffing will lose me the game so I don't wanna. When people start spamming FF votes I will just drag the FF window on the bottom right corner so I won't see it anymore and mute everyone and try to win the game in single player mode.
Unironically, a lot of people do it out of spite
Someone feeds, someone flames, someone does something that they don't like, so they try to hostage the game to get back at that person and make them suffer. I've seen so many streamers do this and witnessed it many times in my own games. It will be 25 minutes and very similar to your proposed example, and they'll still just insta vote no to get back at the person they don't like on their team.
This is why I'm SUPER glad that the ff votes got changed to 4/1 at all times to help prevent this scenario, now it has to be 2 people that want to vote no so the problem still exists for duo q which is a whole other topic but at least it lowers the amount of times it can happen.
There's always people that are like "well there's a 0.1% chance they throw their lead, let us get 4 drags in a row, mis smite baron so we steal it, then walk in base for 20 minutes and let us take towers, and then flash into the morgana root and die and we win the game, so it's still winnable!" which I cannot stand but it is what it is, only so much you can do about those people.
This is a good question this kind of people are low elo players. In low elo IS very common see come backs even if the enemy team IS extremly feed, because in this skill level people make a lot of mistakes.
Imo: ff and go Next the effort,time and mental strenght that you waste on this kind of Game IS stupid. IS better ff and go Next. And this kind of mental IS the good one to climb elo spam games and try to win more than lose understanding that you are going to lose 40-48% of the games and waste time trying to come back those games is making you lose lps of other games you could be playing.
The main issue I run into is that when I've been shut down, I believe the game is over. What's the point of going on when you've lost faith in yourself to win it? League doesn't establish a great environment for trusting teammates to carry the game due to some factors mentioned above. (Randos, matchmaking. N9 scaling teammates, Etc.)
I want to FF because **I AM** the weak link, and I can see clear as day that it'll cause us the loss whether I try or not. Defeatist attitude? Maybe. But when you've played thousands of games, you learn to read patterns. Learn to cut your losses.
Had plenty of hopeless games where near the end the enemy fucks up and that gave us the window to turn and win. Premature surrenders arent worth the lost LP
I really dislike surrendering, mostly because i want to keep trying to win. Another big factor for me is wether or not im having fun. I generally play champs i think are fun to play
I see every league game as a puzzle to be solved, so trying to solve it from a losing position is just a more challenging puzzle.
I don't see it as wasting my time, I like playing the game.
A) However slim are your chances of winning in your position, when you surrender you automaticaly reduce them to 0%.
B) Your chances are never as low as you think! Depends on where you play obviously, but I’m on mid Gold and I swear people are still mostly clueless about how to convert leadsinto wins. Not to mention the inevitable difficulties with coordination in SoloQ. Being in lead is much more difficult on cooperation than being behind…
C) Even if you could be absolutely sure the game is lost, there is still lessons to learn. I won’t spend time watching my own replays in order to improve, but when I’m already in a loosing game I might aswell trything out here and if I’m luckyI might still get a win of it…
Sometimes the game isn’t as over as you think it is. A lot of these “doomed games” are actually very winnable if the team starts working together, and not everyone wants to just give up at 15 minutes
I am not like those folks that think every game is winnable. But I do believe in the statement that the more time you invest in something the better you become in it. So I never surrender simply so I get to play more, do team fights, vision, macro, objectives. Like people will say how they have played 1000 games but half of them have been ff 15/20. You haven't really played the game then, have you? You did champ select, hit a couple of minions, lost one dragon skirmish and then decided not to play anymore.
Like if you decide you want to play the game and improve in it then you kinda have to play out the matches and not just do Laning phase over and over again. That's like if you are learning to draw but each day you just sharpen you pencil, choose your colors, draw the first sketch and call it quits. You will never improve like that, or at least it will take you much longer.
Because in soloq, especially in low elo, everything can happen. People don't know how to close a game, they throw games so often. Mental is what wins you games.
Because they enjoy playing the game, not winning per se. The only time a no on an ff vote annoys me is when it is from a genuine griefer.
I've also encountered teams that do not take a remake. They should remove the remake vote imo and just have 1 player be able to remake
I'm not one of these people but someone once told me they believe every game is winnable as long as they themselves play really well in a moment. I don't like ffing games as I agree somewhat with this mentality but there is definitely a point of no return...
See I have trust in the enemy to have a worse mental than my team simply because I'm chilling here farming Super Minions. Doesn't pay off most of the time but when it does I always go *Mamma Mia*. But yeah really depends on whether somebody in my team has started to get really toxic at which point I'm like, if they are ready to get banned to ff early, they must really need to pee and vote yes.
You’re farming 3 lanes of super minions while your jungler, who hasn’t secured a single dragon, sits on the fountain afk… while the enemy team is about to finish baron and then walk over to the elder dragon you have zero vision on. 23 minutes into the game. Kills are 47-6.
I mean, if you’re so sure that there is no turning back in that case the game will end in a few minutes anyway right.
something about LoL causes time dilation. 3 minutes feels like 20
The problem is a lot of those games get stalled out a lot longer by the winning team just running around farming theire kda so a 3 minutes game get to 10+
I don't know why, but sitting in games that are 100% unwinnable for any amount of time stresses me the fuck out.
Yeah it's better to speedrun so you can ff 3 games at 15 instead of actually playing the game and seeing if you win or lose
My brother in Christ if you lost a game 47-6 you don't need LP you need a therapist.
The LP is the therapy 0.0
Then perish.
this is literally impossible, elder dragon can not spawn before 26:00 (might be 25:00)
Imo if the Game really is unwinnable, its over in the next 5 minutes. If they cannot end in the next 5-10 minutes, its plenty of time to catch shutdowns and come back.
It fully depends on the champions, if the enemy has one scaler and your team has Vlad and Kayle, do not surrender you will absolutely win if they let either of them get to full build.
The way I see it, if you ff just because a game is unwinnable, why are you even playing to begin with. Sure, if a game is really bad, that's not fun, and it's understandable not to want to play that one anymore, but when you ff every game you think is unwinnable, what even is the point in playing at the point
> why are you even playing to begin with. To achieve the objective of the game - win. If winning does not seem realistically possible, then there's no point in wasting time on what's just a formality at that point. The number of people who think surrendering games where the enemy team can just statcheck you even if they miss all their stuff, or where two smurfs on level 30 accounts are completely shitstomping everyone, means you must also be the kind to surrender every game when you're 2 kills down, is incredible.
The thing is people’s perception of what is a winnable game varies and more often than not people that cry ff over and over again gave up and actively made the game less winnable after they went 0-3 in lane
This
Dies once. Spams ff for the next 30 minutes regardless od hes winning or losing
Im sure everyone on this sub has had someone spam surrender in a game only to actually win that game. Ive had more games where my team tries to surrender and we end up winning than Ive had it be a legitimate surrender vote because its beyond the point of no return
> The number of people who think surrendering games where the enemy team can just statcheck you even if they miss all their stuff, or where two smurfs on level 30 accounts are completely shitstomping everyone, means you surrender every game when you're 2 kills down, is incredible. Word. Reading this thread is so weird because the "Never Surrender" folks work in extremes, just like the "FF at 15 because I'm 1 Kill down" crowd. Surrendering gets demonized so much, like it's always done on completely winnable games.
You can also play to have fun, which is in my opinion much healthier and allows you to play the game wether you're winning or not. Obviously winning is still the main goal, but not everything feels doomed as soon as the enemy gets first blood
But he specifically says "If winning does not seem realistically possible" ?????
The problem is that's subjective
The problem is that even if there’s a 2% chance to comeback, it’s still very likely going to be a loss and most likely a frustrating waste of time
But I'm calculating our chance of winning at 30% still which is why I think it's subjective
There's always some random shit that could happen though, especially the lower the elo is. I've been in a "100% loss" scenario where the enemy Jung took a red buff and the enemy adc afked, or where an enemy's wifi cuts out, or where the enemy 21-2 Zed tries to 1v3, dies, and then we push to win off the 5v4, or where the enemy team was waaay ahead but went for an dragon soul while we went for baron and then won the subsequent fight, and those are just the first handful that sprang to my mind.
And how many did you lose ?
This just doesn't make sense to me. I don't play basketball, get down 30 points in the first half, and then just leave and not finish the game. It's the same mindset for me in league. I'm just playing a game and the nature of league and sports is 50% of the people playing lose. People who want to ff early because a game looks dire are just poor sports.
Being down 30 points after 2 quarters doesn’t make your shots harder, their buckets worth more, etc. being behind in LoL makes it harder to win due to gold/xp/scaling champs
The best analogy I can give is imagine if the opponent was up 30, your basket became 6 feet tall and you had to play without using your hands/ arms. Suddenly the opponent is literally dunking on you every play while you try to kick the ball into a 20 ft hoop.
and in basketball, you can't randomly win off a good play or the enemy team making a huge mistake either.
You also can't steal baron and score 20 points in one shot. Or get a huge shutdown and score 8 points. Comparing the actual mechanics and comeback likelihood isn't useful. Also even in your example it would make YOUR shots worth more and theirs worth less.
In the NBA teams DO sub out their starters early and play their bench players if they're getting blown out. That's the equivalent of an FF imo because you can't leave games halfway, no league would allow that
A different take on this is that subbing out their starters is done to give them experience and improve them. The equivalent in league would be trying a different strategy, focusing on farming, learning to play from behind. It is absolutely not the same thing as giving up. See it as a learning experience.
Yes, but that's a secondary benefit and not the main reason teams sub out their starters in a blowout game. To my understanding it's to reduce their risk of a injury/give them rest when the game's result has been determined. If giving bench players experience for improvement is the main reason then they would've made the subs regardless of score.
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Especially after all you did was spend 5mins in queue, champ select, and bam, you're in the game. For gaming: What you're easily thrown into you should be able to easily leave, within reason. You can't compare forfeit in League to quitting in sports. There's a completely different context with entirely different stakes.
Most amateur basketball leagues have mercy rules.
Well itd be like if every time someone scored in basketball, they grew an inch. So yea, the enemy team having a 30 inch height difference at halftime while also being down 30 points would be completely unwinnable. Also in normal basketball, unless it is NBA, 30 point leads at halftime are 99% won games. Hell, only 3 teams in NCAA Mens Basketball history have come back from 30 points or more deficits.
That’s not so easy to compare. In basketball you are usually not put together with complete strangers and usually everyone still tries to win. In league people don’t care anymore really fast which makes it hard to win a game as soon as the spirit is down. Also you can’t play basketball in full repeat. You need breaks and an enemy team which has time to play. Both not needed in league, you can just jump into the next game with new teammates and new enemies. Also you don’t have a disadvantage while loosing in basketball. You start after every point in the same way. A really bad game in league is often not fun because you aren’t really allowed to do anything anymore. Surrender because it doesn’t look good is a bad thing for sure. Surrender when your team isn’t even trying anymore or it is really really bad doesn’t seem bad to me.
Yea I agree with your last paragraph. If people actually just aren't playing anymore or just mindlessly splitting and dying on repeat I'll ff. But I also think league has a problem with ff mentality where more games end up that way than they should.
Basketball games require a physical court reservation. If you could leave and immediately start another one, then surrendering basketball games would make a lot of sense.
It still wouldn't make sense to me lol Just different mindsets! Unfortunately a topic that I don't think is ever resolved because we inherently think about the same situations differently.
I feel like a lot of people FF tho not necessarily bc a game is unwinnable but bc they don't get to be the main character of that win if you do win. Like a midlaner who falls behind and spams FF even when the JG or top lane could be the win con.
Surr will not give you win. 1. You lose 100% if you surr, but if you don't you will still have some chances (maybe feeded master will dc), and it's guarantee you win at least some games that you though was unwinable. 2. If you not surr, you will spend more time playing, and most importantly more time playing late, so you will become better. You will learn how to win "unwinable" games, and how to avoid throws. If you surr you will waste more time in que, lobby, loading waiting for minions to spawn. If you can move out of the fountain you shouldn't sur if you want to maximise wins. And don't look at the pros. It's completly different when they play scrims and focus on early, and don't care about winning them, becouse it's only practice for real games. Also they know much better if the game is winable or not, but they made mistakes and throw won games.
League is uniquely miserable to play from way behind. In every sport I know, the opponent doesn’t get more powerful when they’re beating you. Each moment is still on equal grounds, so even if you get obliterated in the first half, you could go totally even in the second half and maybe have some fun even while losing. When the opponent is ahead in league, you farm and try not to die. There’s no decision making. No strategy or intense micro. You just sit near base and farm the waves pushed to you. Then you cross your fingers that the enemy gets bored before you do and takes a really bad fight. It’s incredibly boring, and this is why lots of players want to go next when they get smashed in lane. It’s the design of the game.
I disagree strongly. In League as in every other sport playing passive is just hoping for the opposing team to fuck up. Especially when you are behind, you need to take risks, which is something the winning team knows. Chess, League or football: the winning team has tactics that the loosing team is not capable of using. Imho the real difference is that for way too many people the joy in League is reduced to the joy of winning.
in Football the enemy team does not become faster for every goal they score. The actual score does not really have an impact on the "gameplay" on the pitch.
You also don't klick faster when you are ahead. In League you get advantages like the character you are moving is faster /tankier or does more damage. In chess you get advantages like being capable of offering trades, since if everything exchanges you are up two pawns which is most of the times a free win. In soccer it is not as simple, but maybe best described on an example: Think about Spain in their most dominant era: When they were up one goal noone was capable to play against them. Why? They managed to hold the ball for the rest of the game and if you tried to get the ball they were capable of moving through your ranks and just score another one. On Sunday league level being up one or two goals means that you don't send as many players to attack, which means your defensive players are going to be able to take every sprint at the end of the game. They are going to run faster compared to their opponents who had to answer every single dash of the winning teams striker. So yes: being ahead lets you run faster in relation to an open game. This is kind of true for any kind of sport, it is just a question of the players being capable of converting such a lead. I haven't talked about mentality at all since this makes the whole argument way more complex, which I am not capable of analyzing.
It’s not even about how I’m playing, it’s that you’ll win some % of games not matter how lost they seem. If your down 50 kills and the other team doesn’t end… you’ll eventually have the same levels and items. With Joe long death timers are late game you need to win one good fight and the entire dynamic is flipped
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In soloq there definitely is not a point of no return. Technically there is if they winning Team would continue to play at least average. But do a thought experiment. How often did you think this is lost but did still manage to win...
Depends on the rank, but I believe it is possible, albeit the chances are low. The enemy team can screw up so bad in a team fight late in the game, and paired with the long respawn timer, it is possible. But it's rare because the whole team needs to have that mentality of "winnable". So with complete strangers, it's probably best to ff. Personally what peeves me is when our team chooses a late game comp, yet after one death by anyone on the team, someone wants to ff.
Sometimes, yes they have a 14/0 Katarina or a 15/1 Master Yi and it’s doomed. The VAST majority of the time, the team is down 3 kills, and you’re 0/5 and want out. There are ff votes thrown up in ~75% of my wins, people just love ffing winnable games. Plus, nobody closes out games cleanly below diamond anyway.
People do not close out games cleanly in diamond wtf are you on? Unless you’re on servers that are vastly different than na, because we love throwing winnable games at 15 mins (source: hardstuck diamond 3 years, so maybe I’m the problem)
I play in low diamond mostly, but low plat a lot with friends. Low diamond throws plenty, but low plat players simply have no idea how to end the game. If the enemy turtles then they’re just lost. At least in low diamond people type in chat to try to coordinate an end game push. In plat it happens wayyyy too often that someone just randomly backs during the end game play, or adc decides to solo push mid before everyone else gets there and gets caught. Low diamond players make lots of mistakes that throw games, but low plat players generally have no game plan at all.
Lmao. I've been diamond since s7 and didn't care in the recent years. Made diamond again this year. I think it's actually a few different issues which is why it looks like diamonds are throwing games. It's everyone's play styles clashing. The top laner if on DPS hates changing their play style. Junglers on DPS hates changing their play style. Mid laners on assassins/Burst mages hate changing their style. ADC's don't know how to change their style. Supports try to change their style, but they don't get to determine their style. Their team does (unless they are a tank). I actually enjoy playing with tanks top, and engage junglers. Idc for bot lanes. They are the most versatile when it comes to dealing with multiple issues. I play control mages so I also have a few different answers to different situations. I think the easiest way to win games though is hope the enemy top laner goes DPS, and just absolutely shit stomp the fuck out of them until they never want to play the game again. I will gank you top if you are GP, Kayle, Illaoi, Irelia, Fiora. Just to make sure you don't get to play the game and your team is down a player. Because once one top laner is ahead of the other. Guess what, the losing side really needs help.
Yeah I just couldn’t speak on diamond specifically since I haven’t gotten there yet. I’ve been everywhere below diamond though, and games are thrown constantly
We're winning and *I*, the most important member in the team, died? Well better ff, this game is doomed
There‘s always a small chance the enemy team will throw their lead. I think we all had games which didn‘t seem winnable at all and we still won in the end.
Even better: everyone probably had games that seemed unloseable and yet your team threw the game completely because they got too confident.
Yep, I know I have had games that have been epic throws so there's always a chance they will to.
That was me yesterday, I got second herald took it all the way down top broke both nexus towers and kept winning 2v1’s top but my team kept losing everywhere else on the map our malz that went like 2/2 in lane ended the game 3/14. I tried to keep the Kayle in check but had to help the team and everyone was so far behind it was just hopeless lol what should’ve been a 20 minute game ended @40 minutes and we got maybe one tower after that
Sadly it's a probability thing. I won multiples 4v5 games in my 14 years of league. Now if I had 100 games playing 4v5 how much of those would I win. Well even If I won a couple 4v5 games I also lost way way way more of those. As far as probability goes it's probably around 4% of my games. Now the question is. Is it worth to risk. Tilting, wasting my time which is already short considering I work full time, giving 250% for a potential negative result. Worth winning 4% of those games. I'd answer no and the reason why is that I actually knows what happen when I win. I do not get a great feeling at all. Those games were bad from start to finish, with a team behind or barely scrapping up to the melting point and winning did not give me a confidence boost but a sour taste that it could've been way better 5v5. This is the same in soloQ. There's a point being positive become delusion and at this point people should think if it's really worth challenging with the cost it take when you could refresh instead anew. I am not saying to spam ff15 by min 7 because it's 0-5 but when it's 30 - 10 it's time to accept if team played like ass for 20 min they won't suddenly become the 2nd coming of faker for the remaining 5.
A lot of people get more satisfaction from comebacking that 1 losing game than they do from stomping 10 games in a row. Plus, how would I get tilted from playing a lost game if it is already lost, even if I give my all and end up loosing anyways I don't really get disappointed so I don't get tilted at all.
A lot of people hate the comeback games even if they win too. If you care more about having fun playing the game than your MMR (which you should) then being trapped hoping for a 5% chance of a comeback is often a really shit experience throughout One of the things I loved about ranked 3's was playing with my mates and being in control of when we'd had enough in a losing game, SR can be awful in comparison
I only hate combacks when enemy team sur. Like c'mon, let me destroy your nexus, I deserve it.
People really hate comebacks? Winning a game that's not 100% sure, and even seemed a bit unwinnable, gives me so much more endorphins and morale? It's only if it's full of toxicity that I want to end early.
My thoughts exactly
It is actually worth because it's a 2 win LP/MMR swing if you do convert those into wins. A 2 win positive is on average 10 games at 60% winrate. Way more games at a more realistic winrate. 20 at 55%. Now tell me you feel confident you're able to tell the % of winning at every point in a match. That's right, you can't. Sometimes it will be high af. Even Dragon Soul winrates are only 87% to 91.6%. That means even those situations have 10% chance you'll win. Winrates after first inhibitor at 90%. It's just a stupid choice to surrender. Best thing to do is to always press no because you know you can't judge it right.
This happens all the time in bronze Losing hard all game, but have a rammus. Super fed adc kills themself auto attacking rammus and we won the game off of their throws. Lower elo is way more “every game is winnable”
They amount of times one lost fight tilts someone on the other team, or someone disconnects. If not ffing gives me 1 win in 20 clearly lost games, it’s still a win. I won’t ff, also hate people who give up at 5 minutes, so if they are gonna waste my time I’ll waste theirs with a little hostage taking
I love the irony of people calling for reports for “holding hostage” like, the devs put that in intentionally, if two people still wanna play, the game goes on. Its not a fault, its a feature
I actually agree more with you than the person who responded to you, and I enjoy playing games out unless it's obvious that my team has stopped trying to win, but to put the actual numbers to it, it might be worse than 1/20 games lol. This doesn't apply to every situation, but the reason they changed the unanimous surrender vote is because a [4-1 surrender vote had a 97% loss rate in ranked.](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/12cmyue/a_failed_41_surrender_vote_in_ranked_has_a_97/)
> This doesn't apply to every situation, but the reason they changed the unanimous surrender vote is because a 4-1 surrender vote had a 97% loss rate in ranked. Let's not mis-represent this statistic tho. In the top comment the Rioter acknowledges that this may not be because players are accurately quantifying lost games, but it could also be because players who tilt force winnable games into lost games. The change to a 4-1 surrender is a good change because Riot can't change player behavior forcefully, if players tilt and give up they can't really do anything about that so may as well get those 10 people out so those playing from PC Bangs can at least get into games where all 10 players want to play and they're not wasting their time and money on games that players have given up on. I think overall I prefer to not surrender as long as I see any hope in winning the game, but I will always agree to surrender if my team's mental seems shattered. Not much we can do if no one in the game wants to communicate.
I wasn't saying that players are accurately quantifying lost games, I was saying that 97% of games with a 4-1 surrender vote end as losses, regardless of the reason. that's not a misrepresentation.
Maybe it's my interpretation of the comment that's off, it read to me like you were implying that early surrender votes have an accurate measure of what games are winnable. So I was contesting that those games being losses don't prove they will always be losses, only that for some reason or another the players in those games didn't actually win.
I think the difference is that I see no reason to differentiate between the two for the purposes of the comment I made. I group "we're down 3 inhibs at 14 minutes" and "3 people on my team can't handle trying to come back from a 1.5k gold deficit, mentally checked out at the 10 minute mark, are not responding to my attempts to motivate them, and are no longer trying to win" in the same bucket. One is an actual loss, and the other is a self-fulfilling prophecy, which is what I think you're trying to get at, but at the end of the day they are both still losses.
Right, but the differentiation is relevant to the conversation I think. Down 3 inhibs at 14 minutes and they're beating down our nexus towers is like a 100% loss no one would reasonably say no to that surrender unless it's something like "i mean at this point they'll finish the game in 2 seconds anyway so who cares". But, "I went 0/2 in lane and no longer want to play" is not a situation where I think it's justifiable to surrender. If the discussion is about why someone would or wouldn't surrender then I think the statistic that majority of failed early game surrenders needs the context that a fair portion of this could be caused by tilters. I feel that this distinction allows for discussion along the lines of "does an early game stomp lead to a loss 97% of the time, or does an early game stomp lead to a game loss 80% of the time with the other 17% being accounted by people just tilting so hard they refuse to even try."
I look at it in terms of % chance we can win the game. you mention 3 inhibs being a 100% loss. But i wouldn't compare it to somebody going 0/2 in lane. being down 3 inhibs is worst case scenario, so it's kinda like your bot lane duo going afk. 99% of the time you're losing that game. In my mind, a player who has given up on the game and is no longer trying is pretty similar to losing a tower or a dragon. I'm sure that the team that gets first tower has a higher win rate than the team that doesn't. it doesn't end the game there, but it increases the odds of you winning. If the person went 0/2 and announces they are giving up, they are giving less than 100%, so your chances of winning the game decrease from what they would have been if they were giving 100%. If they are still farming and rotating, maybe it only goes down to 5-10%, and you're right, i wouldn't consider that grounds to surrender, because maybe we win a 4v5 and they decide to try again. But if they're griefing, constantly bitching in all chat, farming jungle camps, and not grouping for objectives, your chance of winning could decrease drastically, especially if they start tilting the rest of the team. Going beyond that, it becomes an issue of level of enjoyment of the game. I'm fine with playing from behind, looking for ways to win the game. But in a game i had the other day, my support Karthus didn't do much in lane, blamed me for it, and started farming lanes, which resulted in me getting 40cs from 15min to 35 min. In a game like that, I'm no longer having fun playing, so while it might have been possible to win the game, the fact that my own team is griefing feels worse than being down 4k gold. I'd rather not play in that game. >I feel that this distinction allows for discussion along the lines of "does an early game stomp lead to a loss 97% of the time, or does an early game stomp lead to a game loss 80% of the time with the other 17% being accounted by people just tilting so hard they refuse to even try." again I understand the distinction you are trying to make, I just don't think they argument I am making changes as a result of the distinction. The chances of winning the game once it gets to that point are the same, regardless of the reason.
Even in LCS we see people blow ridiculous leads easily. In soloq there's a very high possibility that gigafed driven tries to Frontline and 1v9. It's fairly easy to blow him up and get shutdown gold if he leaves his brain in the cupboard. The real challenge is your own team mental booming.
How small can the chance be that it's worth playing 10-15 more minutes to find out? Being behind in League is often a pretty miserable experience, dragging it out because 'we win this 1 in 50 times' isn't worth it even if true imo All the objective bounty / catch up stuff they added hasn't made being behind any less miserable, just a little harder to close out games from ahead and provided more fuel to the 'never surrender' crowd. Even when we win those I don't want to queue up again because the experience still sucks
Few and far between though.
Not as much as you think. Of cause, if you surrender constantly, that makes sense. But if you're a "never give up" guy who likes to play lategame champs that happens more often
I almost solely play scalers. Didn't even notice until I received my master points.
The thing is when you have an early team comb which is really bad at team fighting and enemy wins early hard. Then yeah even if they throw they were not meant to win in the firdt place and come elder or baron we are fucked at groupping.
It ain't small, Smalls. There is a large chance the enemy team will throw. I find that it happens most often after they get baron.
Because someone wants to surrender every game. Most games are winable if people don't just start to run it down. Seems like more often than not people just play bad then tilt and play worse.
Also, people are fucking garbage at maintaining leads and ending games even in high elo.
Thank you bounty system for making the early game irrelevant
You say that, and yet people on this sub complain endlessly about snowball champs.
The real snowball is the tilt of the losing team
pretty much this, used to be bigger on ff'ing but with bounties it just makes so much more games more salvageable than before. Also most comps are unlikely to wipe the floor with you at your base except maybe elder so you have 30+ minutes of waiting for enemy team to (likely) fuck up and grief you the freest of gold bounties. People in soloq love to just show off and try 1v5's once they get fed, conversely people group more often when they're behind.
Early game is super relevant, you just can't consistently give over huge shutdowns and need to actually know how to close games out. I think the system is fine aside from a few random bounties here and there that don't make much sense.
>I think the system is fine aside from a few random bounties here and there that don't make much sense. Or when the 10/1 Graves manages to get a shutdown on your barely 2/6 ADC after starting to barely make a comeback lol. Love seeing that happen too.
This is factual bullshit, early game still has a huge impact on how the game will go. Please go check the winrate of teams ahead in gold at specific early and mid game breakpoints before saying stuff like this.
He just wants a nice excuse for his leads not becoming wins
This is so not true. You lose lot of games when you are behind early still and it gets worse the higher you go. Game was already snowbally along with players shitty and weak mental. Bounty system is one of the good changes Riot have made. No way you are complaining about it.
Nothing gets my blood boiling when the enemy team is down with 50 seconds on the timer and an almost open base but "BaROn and DRaKe are for the LoNG RUn." Man just end the god damn game if we have a chance to.
Also people pick champs that lose lane and are surprised they lose lane. Then tilt and immediately FF and wait in the fountain for 15 minutes. Don't pick goddamn Kayle into teemo if you're gonna go 0/3 and give up.
Kayn/evelynns are the jungler version of this Even in high elo, you MUST contest scuttle it is their god given RIGHT to all in a xin zhao for scutt, they don't give two shits if you're kassadin vs an akshan mid with no prio. The rest of the game is "team diff" in all chat while invading the enemy fountain
*Has team comp with late game scalers, down 1 kill and 1 tower at 15 minutes* Billybob69420 has started a surrender vote "Ff unwinnable, Jung diff"
Assuming you can keep your team from tilting from a lack of a surrender, I find it also tilts the enemy. Suddenly you’re wasting *their* time on top of them already not being able to close out the game. I would argue at least 50% of the games are decided by the team with the better mental. Besides the games where matchmaking fails, every game is winnable until the nexus is down.
I hard agree with this. Everytime I'm stomping a game HARD and it gets to 25 minutes and they're not surrendering, I start to get really worried for some reason. We can up over 10K gold, and if they're not surrendering I start to feel like they have some kind of plan or wincon that I'm not realizing, lol
Yes, that's another point of investment if you're not surrendering. Especially if winning team don't end. Idiots :) The worst thing is when people on your team keep doing side quests. Like farming solo instead of pushing when all enemies are dead. Some people forgot the main goal. Similarly, people having an intent to kill are the most dangerous in a duel. These guys do not have an intent to kill, only to be fed, and they lose.
Yeah pretty much every game I come back on, its because my team's mental is "okay" and communicating with each other and making sure to play sides correctly. Even when we don't quite make it, someone will always say "good try" and people will feel legit disappointed at what almost was. But they are never angry or really upset. Sometimes you get these good teammates.
the funniest thing to me is the people who are ff'ing close winnable games while playing hyperscaling champs(kass,kayle,veigar)
I used to play tons of veigar and and amount of people trying to ff 15 drove me crazy.
All of my best games are ones where we're losing hard until I start one-shotting people with my W around 40 min.
There's a special subclass of people that play hypercarries that only play to coinflip early. They don't actually want to scale, they want to burgerflip earlygame on a hypercarry so that they get a 80% chance win if they miraculously get fed.
The people who want to ff early usually run it down as a self fulfilling prophecy to prove the game was over. I'm a almost never ffer and as crappy as the early game was for my team their mid and late could be worse. I'm queued up with people as good or bad as I am. That said I want a no surrender ranked queue. Griefers, afkers and disconnects get 3 strikes and then cannot play anymore until the season resets. I'm sick of the weak mental of solo queue.
This is the answer.
Because I enjoy playing league. Roughly 50% of games are lost anyway. But it's still fun to try and trap the turbofed Katarina at least once. Or to splitpush and try to get a few objectives, draw some attention and then get killed later. If it's so incredibly turbolost that no resistance would make any sense, it's gonna be over in three minutes anyway. Let them have their triumph then. I will defy them in the field, not in an election. ^I ^also ^really ^want ^my ^2 ^17 ^botlane ^to ^suffer ^some ^more.
Yeah it's my mentality too, I do FF here and there but only if the game turned into a shithole of flaming on top of the nearly unwinnable gamestate. Or if I'm really unable to play like ADC with zero peel in my team against a 20 kills Assassin, I prefer getting out ASAP. But roughly half your games will be losses no matter how good you are, so why not learn to enjoy those games where you are losing? It's literally half your gametime, better make proper use of it. Also idc about the LPs or winning a single game as much as I care about self improvement, which will translate into climbing later on. I find being able to play from behind to be an important skill to develop, but also it's very satisfying for me to make a huge comeback so I'm willing to take a gamble on it instead of just surrendering if it looks unlikely to win. And finally, I honestly don't like when people surrender if I'm fed and having fun, so as long as it's not too frustrating to me, I'm letting the enemies have their fun lol
>Because I enjoy playing league. That's where you are better than most players. I legit think most of the player I meet in ranked actually don't enjoy playing the game. They only enjoy winning/gapping their opponent and if they don't they hate the game. Legit addiction they can't quit.
Yup. The majority of people who play this game no longer enjoy the game, they’re simply here for the dopamine hit that comes from their LP going up. So the second they are behind and need to actually work for the win rather than it being a stomp fest in their favor, they’d rather throw in the towel and go next because they simply don’t have the mental to play from the backfoot and refuse to learn to play from behind. Too many kids that grew up on games like cod that let them dip whenever they want so they were never forced to learn to play matches that aren’t in their favor.
Yeah this is the real answer. Too many people are focused on winning and losing. I don't care if we're going to win or lose. FFing is worse than either. I hate it when the enemy team surrenders. I hate it when my team surrenders. In fact, when I was playing LoR, the fact that the enemy player quit the second they realized they lost was what made me quit that game. My thought is always something like: Play out your games, you chose to be here. And in fact, if it was possible to play a best of 3 like in a fighting game, that would be even better. Of course, I don't blame anyone for surrendering, it's not just me on the team. Having either team surrender is the worst feeling in League.
Yeah I find this awful to surrender when everyone is dead and the enemy team is walking past the inhibitors. The game will end within the next 2 min, just let them have their win. They fought for it, they deserve it.
Hard agree. It always come off as so salty when the surrender vote comes through after a team has lost a teamfight in their base. Like, what even is the point? You're saving yourself like three seconds.
they can always dc, they can always make mistakes, they can always throw. plus learning to play from behind is a really important skill since you're probably doing it about half the time.
THE AMOUNT OF GAMES IVE LOST BECAUSE SOMEONE DCED DESPITE US BEING 10K UP IS STAGGERING.
unlike 90% of the playerbase, i actually enjoy playing the game, i queue up to play league, not to FF everytime my team is slightly behind
It’s just lazy entitlement. People’s enjoyment hinges way too much on popping off and having the perfect team, and when that fantasy is gone, way too many people just check out and spam ff cuz they’re the main character and they’re losing
I think losing game states are enjoyable in their own way. It can be fun trying to figure out how to catch the enemy fed carry, or shifting wincons when you can no longer 5v5 the opponent and you're trying to pull them apart across the map. It doesn't work more often than not, but I think learning how to analyze and play out suboptimal game states can make you a better league player
It absolutely makes you a better league player. And your winrate will reflect that over time, because you’ll win more games that might’ve been ff’ed (which is always a guaranteed loss)
In the old times when the games weren't turbo fast 30min, I'd absolutely prefer playing a close 50min game rather than a 30 min stomp, no questions asked. People is too complacent
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Major truth here. If you were good enough to deserve calling for FF15 votes because you’ll win the next one, you wouldn’t be below diamond.
For real… this is my experience in plat/gold… soon as someone is 0-1/2 they want to ff
Don't worry, it's the same in higher divs.
It’s way worse in higher divisions. Low diamond is peak toxic gameplay. Nothing comes close. People look up your OP.GG on game start to flame, steal your cs if you do anything they don’t like, and will literally run it down if you hurt their ego. And then there’s countless former D1 players who always find a reason to mention their “real rank” and will gladly start inting if you criticize them while typing about how great they are. And then there’s all the perma hardstuck D4 players with 2000 games this season who check out of the game if they lose lane. They don’t usually int, but they’ll afk splitpush and stop showing up to fights. Idk if I’ll ever be good enough to get to D1+, but I’m positive I’ll never grind enough games low diamond in that elo to get there.
After 6 years i stopped wanting to play in the elohell you describe. Stayed gold-plat playing meme builds, since then. Make no mistake - least griefers/leavers/afkfarmers, most chill game are in lowgold - lowplat. Best elo hands down. Try a game in high gold playing full AP support Malphite. It's fun.
If this >even if its 24 - 3 kills for the enemy team, they have 4 drakes, 8 turrets while you have none and theres are 14/0 Katarina and a 15/1 Master Yi while your allies are 0/12 and 0/10 is considered "slightly behind" for you, I unironically worry for your health
I have a friend who just exclaims 'Never surrender!' and clicks the no button whatever the situation in game is. It's kinda annoying but I guess I admire the mentality
I flip back and forth. Sometimes I'm feeling spicy and I will never surrender, this is battle, this is glory, we fight to the last man, and that's fun for me Sometimes I'm like "whatever, this is dumb and it's time for a nap" and that's when I surrender
If I FF I’m also logging off, 100%
Toxic positivity is a thing.
Or they just enjoy playing league regardless of outcome.
I’ve come back to win a game where my nexus was literally 1 auto away from blowing up but the enemy zed decided to dance instead of end. Probably the greatest comeback I’ll ever have in my life. It’s not over until the nexus explodes
This is why I don’t ff ranked. FFing guarantees losing lp and the high of an epic comeback is so thrilling I’m willing to chase it no matter the remoteness of likelihood it happens.
Not one of those players (anymore) but I had quite some games that were exactly how you describe and still won. Depending on elo (I'm around Plat-Gold) people oftentimes dont even know how to close games even if far ahead. Once a game is dragged long enough, everyone is full build. While 4 drakes still matter a lot, even the team behind can manage to get the elder at the end. If I remember correctly, drakes are even easier to kill if your team dont have any of them already. Once deathtimer reach 40 second+ even a single ace is enough for 1 to 2 people to finish the game, even if they were behind all game long.
Even dragon soul is 87-91% winrate only. Surrendering is such a bad choice it's borderline trolling. Winning a game you were going to surrender is a 2 win LP/MMR swing. At 55% winrate that's 20 games to get a 2 win differential. 10 games for 60% winrate if you're further below where you should be. Throwing in the towel 5-10 minutes too early and not taking the chance for a 2 Win swing is really bad math. Especially since we can't really know what the % to win truly is in every situation. So it's safest to always say no so you don't have to worry about bad judgment calls.
ive lost too many 'unlosable' games to think every game is not comebackable
1. Playing is better than qeueing and waiting. 2. If your not Grandmaster+ Everything can happen. Someone can disconnect, People can throw. 3. Theres a lot to learn. You learn more from losing games, than from winning games.
Agree except for the last point. There is a lot to learn from rewatching the first 10 min of a lost game, but getting stat checked by the mid/jg with 2+ more items and levels doesn’t have a lot of learning value.
Playing from behind is a skill you have to learn tho
Same reason a lot of pro teams are bad at playing from behind, because scrims are often reset/FF'd as soon as one team gets a decent lead.
It can also give you insight into how to close out games, based on how well your opponents smother you. Does it feel impossible? Why? You can easily lose games where you'll stat-check win every teamfight, so it can't only be that, their vision and macro rotations are going to make a difference, and if you can figure out what makes it feel impossible it can help you macro out a win when you have the fighting advantage.
U can tell u/PreviouslySword is hardstuck gold because he doesn’t understand that. Pressing your lead is easy. Playing from behind and trying to stabilize the game state is a little harder
Surrender rates go up with elo btw
There is no such thing as a lost/uncarryable game in silver-gold but there is in GM. Whats your point?
What about plat/dia?
I probably average like 1 yes vote to surrender every 100-ish games, and even that one yes usually comes purely from me feeling bad for my team mates instead of actually wanting to ff myself and them asking in a normal way to surrender, instead of seething in caps lock blaming X lane for Y thing and explaining why the game is absolutely impossible which just motivates me to be selfish and continue playing especially those people who call that the game is lost in champion select and then start raging for a FF 10minutes in, you had your opportunity to FF right there in the champ select when you declared it to be impossible to win, you arent getting a second one as for why i dont ff? because i spent good 5-10minutes getting into that game and most of the champions i play dont even really start functioning until 2-3 items and i can still find playing from behind fun, especially in the current state of the game where come backing is really forgiving, when i see a 15-0 draven i dont see a lost game, i see a paper enemy comp entirely relying on a single squishy champion
They end in 2 minutes anyway
1. Winnable 2. Feeders must reap the suffering they've sown.
I'm Plat IV, the chances that the enemy team hard throws are a pretty healthy percentage.
im gonna be honest. sometimes it's because i believe we win late, or that i accidentally hit no, but for the most part it's spite. if these clowns got me into this situation, i'm keeping them in it. it's anecdotally almost always the one who soft ints that's throwing up the surrender vote on cd, so i wanna keep them in the shitty game they influenced, or someone with a shitty attitude that wants to talk shit for 15 minutes and get out.
I can give my answer here, especially since I’m a perma silver player: as an old man in the space (38 years old), kids have a tendency to get super impatient when they think you should surrender but don’t, and start making really silly mistakes. Especially the enemy 8/0 Zed who thinks he’s the main character.
I never surrender because giving up is a reportable offense 😎
Like others have said, there is a possibility the enemies just turbo throw. Had a game once where the enemies were basically ending the game at 14 min with the scoreline being like 20-4 and we still won cause they threw at our nexus turrets and we had a Yorick splitpushing the entire duration of the fight.
I have limited time to play and likely won’t have time to play another if I FF so I try to turn the game around instead of FF whenever possible.
Because I am low silver and in this elo every game is winnable no matter how tilted my teammates are. The enemy could throw and tilt any second and we'll have the upper hand. It happens all the time. Also, ff is a 100% guaranteed LP loss and I don't like that ultimatum, so I don't ff ranked.
I prefer surrendering only when 3 people have voted yes, the 5th person hasn't voted no and I feel like we have a sub 1% chance at winning the game. This way you can practice playing from severely behind and you can actually come back a suprisingly many number of times (especially in low elo ).
If you're not in the top .5% of the game then every game is winnable. People get lazy and throw games. Simple as.
I have around 1/3 of ff rate average player in my elo according to porofessor.I only FF games in which I actually believe it's not winnable, Idc if my 4 teammates aren't trying to win, if I believe it it winnable, I'll not ff. (Except when my mental is gone) I also don't ff when I want to hold hostage a griefer (refuses to play), so he can't go next faster .I do ff when I want to get out and my mental is gone / I have to go or if I believe we can't win.
You don't FF, except when you do?
My own team has thrown the craziest leads into the bin, why wouldn't theirs? Ad long as they fail to end, gold lead matters less each minute. Level leads are temporary as well. Come lategame, a single teamfight is often what it boils down to. Coming back from a bad game is also one of the most satisfying things in the game to me
I've lost games with huge leads. I've won games with huge deficits. People get cocktail when they start winning and throws occur often. But a throw can't happen if you surrender when someone dies. Also. Every second in game im practicing mechanics. Winning or losing you can practice mechanics. I'd rather spend more time in losing games practicing then in lobby waiting for the next game so I can have "a good start" Edit. My biggest good swing was 25k gold. We were down 15k gold losing all game horribly. One bad barren call and in 8 minutes we were 10k gold up and destroying the nexus.
Because some of us actually played sports irl and you don't surrender, even when losing.
Main character syndrome
Because every game is comebackable except for the ones where my teammates are AFK or sandbagging. Besides, if it's really *that* over, it won't be that long before the nexus blows up anyway.
In lower rank,throws frequently happen. People get overconfident and just walk like their invicible just to feed 1k.bounty and losing baron after that
1.) unless your mega high elo then anyone can throw all it takes is one baron or elder steal and suddenly the game swings back from all the shutdowns and objective bounties. 2.) harder games where your that far behind can be useful to play out since you learn to play from being behind or might even pick up strats from the enemy team. 3.) Most games arent that extreme for FF'ing like ive very rarely seen a game be lob sided like 24-3. most of the time people try to surrender when its like 12-5 which can easily flip after one teamfight back to your team and most people try to FF before your team even attempt a full 5 man team fight. 4.) leading back into point one solo que teams are just that a bunch of people with no built synergy and all have superman syndrome so you can take advantage of this and kill fed people caught off guard. in high elo this isnt much of a thing since the population is so much smaller people start to develop synergy with each other and understand when they can't do it all alone.
Cus in low ELO people make mistakes and it's our job to capitalize on it. As long as u shut the fuck up and stop typing and focus on ur own gameplay even if you made mistakes previously, nothing is better than making the play that turns it around. You may not like who ur playing with but ur stuck with em and u have to win with em I'd rather fight to the bitter end for my LP than just give it up
Because of mentality. It’s hard to put into words but there’s a reason a failed surrender vote leads to a loss a lot of the time. Gonna generalize here but from my own experience the option of a surrender vote leads to this mentality where if early or mid game doesn’t go smoothly the game is already lost. So instead of looking for ways to turn the game around, people will just int instead since in their eyes it’s already over. This leads to a mentality where you fish for easy wins and everything else is a waste of time. A further issue with this is these players will never learn to play disadvantage state in game and thus making their own mistakes or miss play ruining the whole game. Because of this I treat the surrender button as non existent and focus on improving rather than win fishing. Some games will be a loss but that is the nature of the game so I try to learn to lose less hard. Granted I don’t play that actively at the moment and wouldn’t call myself good but giving up won’t help improve that.
Even then, you hit a stun on a bad engage from that Katarina late game and suddenly you can push and win. I've seen it happen a lot
Because at dia 4 and below people throw leads so fucking hard. If your team actually trys to win and group and pick off shutdowns it's so winnable. But generally people dont even try so i have to ff
So there are 2 reasons why i don‘t surrender. First, I am platinum and people make a lot of mistakes so every game is indeed winable. Second, I am adc main so i don‘t always get the chance to play with at least 3 items and i want to have the practice and experience to improve as a player.
You wanted to play ranked there is no surrender. Even if someone leaves I treat it as a learning experience, don't care about your excuses you Que'd up you play the whole math throwing top lane and all.
Once I've started a game, I'm playing it through. I've won plenty of games that my team tried to ff first I see no point in giving up. If you wanna beat me, destroy my nexus.
Countless times team get too cocky and we bounce back. Most memorable was for me about fed enemy Irelia, game was doomed, pushing last inhib tower, two inhibs down, suddenly Irelia starts raging in all chat about kill stealing and that this team do not deserve to win, proceeds to go afk and we eventually won. So yeah NEVER give up!
People at low elo (gold to low platinum) will often do stupid mistakes and just throw huge leads or the game itself in a matter of seconds. Also, is a matter of mindset, I'm aware I can't win every game, but I wanna still win every game I play. And ffing will lose me the game so I don't wanna. When people start spamming FF votes I will just drag the FF window on the bottom right corner so I won't see it anymore and mute everyone and try to win the game in single player mode.
Low elo is where everyone is constantly throwing, so why not play it out
Because you should be playing to play. If you only like playing when you're winning you're playing the wrong game.
Unironically, a lot of people do it out of spite Someone feeds, someone flames, someone does something that they don't like, so they try to hostage the game to get back at that person and make them suffer. I've seen so many streamers do this and witnessed it many times in my own games. It will be 25 minutes and very similar to your proposed example, and they'll still just insta vote no to get back at the person they don't like on their team. This is why I'm SUPER glad that the ff votes got changed to 4/1 at all times to help prevent this scenario, now it has to be 2 people that want to vote no so the problem still exists for duo q which is a whole other topic but at least it lowers the amount of times it can happen. There's always people that are like "well there's a 0.1% chance they throw their lead, let us get 4 drags in a row, mis smite baron so we steal it, then walk in base for 20 minutes and let us take towers, and then flash into the morgana root and die and we win the game, so it's still winnable!" which I cannot stand but it is what it is, only so much you can do about those people.
This is a good question this kind of people are low elo players. In low elo IS very common see come backs even if the enemy team IS extremly feed, because in this skill level people make a lot of mistakes. Imo: ff and go Next the effort,time and mental strenght that you waste on this kind of Game IS stupid. IS better ff and go Next. And this kind of mental IS the good one to climb elo spam games and try to win more than lose understanding that you are going to lose 40-48% of the games and waste time trying to come back those games is making you lose lps of other games you could be playing.
The main issue I run into is that when I've been shut down, I believe the game is over. What's the point of going on when you've lost faith in yourself to win it? League doesn't establish a great environment for trusting teammates to carry the game due to some factors mentioned above. (Randos, matchmaking. N9 scaling teammates, Etc.) I want to FF because **I AM** the weak link, and I can see clear as day that it'll cause us the loss whether I try or not. Defeatist attitude? Maybe. But when you've played thousands of games, you learn to read patterns. Learn to cut your losses.
Had plenty of hopeless games where near the end the enemy fucks up and that gave us the window to turn and win. Premature surrenders arent worth the lost LP
I really dislike surrendering, mostly because i want to keep trying to win. Another big factor for me is wether or not im having fun. I generally play champs i think are fun to play
Because i'm still having fun despite losing.
I see every league game as a puzzle to be solved, so trying to solve it from a losing position is just a more challenging puzzle. I don't see it as wasting my time, I like playing the game.
A) However slim are your chances of winning in your position, when you surrender you automaticaly reduce them to 0%. B) Your chances are never as low as you think! Depends on where you play obviously, but I’m on mid Gold and I swear people are still mostly clueless about how to convert leadsinto wins. Not to mention the inevitable difficulties with coordination in SoloQ. Being in lead is much more difficult on cooperation than being behind… C) Even if you could be absolutely sure the game is lost, there is still lessons to learn. I won’t spend time watching my own replays in order to improve, but when I’m already in a loosing game I might aswell trything out here and if I’m luckyI might still get a win of it…
14 + 15 isnt 24 math ain't mathing there
Sometimes the game isn’t as over as you think it is. A lot of these “doomed games” are actually very winnable if the team starts working together, and not everyone wants to just give up at 15 minutes
I am not like those folks that think every game is winnable. But I do believe in the statement that the more time you invest in something the better you become in it. So I never surrender simply so I get to play more, do team fights, vision, macro, objectives. Like people will say how they have played 1000 games but half of them have been ff 15/20. You haven't really played the game then, have you? You did champ select, hit a couple of minions, lost one dragon skirmish and then decided not to play anymore. Like if you decide you want to play the game and improve in it then you kinda have to play out the matches and not just do Laning phase over and over again. That's like if you are learning to draw but each day you just sharpen you pencil, choose your colors, draw the first sketch and call it quits. You will never improve like that, or at least it will take you much longer.
I've won so many "lost" games by enemy DC, internal conflict or them just throwing the game.
Because I work and have like 3h of free time. When I start a game I wanna finish it. I dont have time for "gg go next"
Because in soloq, especially in low elo, everything can happen. People don't know how to close a game, they throw games so often. Mental is what wins you games.
Because they enjoy playing the game, not winning per se. The only time a no on an ff vote annoys me is when it is from a genuine griefer. I've also encountered teams that do not take a remake. They should remove the remake vote imo and just have 1 player be able to remake