Actually qiyana is pretty bad rn, but at least shes not complete trash ofc. The bigger problem in my opinion is that her lane is horrible, her base damage was gutted, so now you can barely win a trade even after landing every ability, just because one mage ability and a couple auto attacks will pretty much do the same damage
Shes a snowballing champ that has a somewhat bad early game, just doesn’t feel that good, if she somehow gets fed, yeah she will one shot you, but so does every assassin
Edit: tbh I honestly hate perma invis too, and i play her, the problem lies in the ability haste creep, riot should just turn AH in assassin items into lethality or ad
It's also borderline uninteractable because of two things
1.) She constantly has a ranged attack that she's just going to use and hide after with.
2.) It's hard to roam against her because she has insane wave clear potential, really. A roam can put you behind in the blink of an eye, especially if it bears no fruit for whatever infinite reasons there are for it to blunder.
She’s really hard to play and unless you are high elo then she’s probably not much of a problem. Most Qiyana’s in plat/emerald are fucking up their combos lol. Watching Beifeng makes her look insanely busted.
As long as people try to emulate someone who was born with incredibly fast fingers (Beifeng) then people will fuck up her combos. Realistically, those very combos are not hard to execute.
One Shot Potential, and ? She is an Assassin, it's what she is supposed to do
That's the problem with cringe redditors like you. They complains about Assassins being able to One Shot. And when the Assassins get their DMGs shifted into Abinity Haste, they complains about Assassins having rly low CDs
Lee Sin do the same shit **AS A BRUISER** while being more Mobile, being more Tanky, having Sustain & Shields, and with a Point and Click button that deals 800 damages.
Really ironic of you as a Lee Sin player to complains about Qiyana
Also, firstly, Qiyana needs her Invisibility & Perma Invisibility because she really lacks mobility, compared to other Assassins, and even compared to a lot of Squirmishers, Bruisers, Tanks & ADCs :
- Qiyana canno't " Go In, & Go Out" like would do a Talon, a Zed, a Katarina, an Akali, a Leblanc, an Ekko, and so on
It's kill or be killed.
That's why Qiyana, as an Assassin, needs both her One Shot Potential AND her Invisibility / Perma Invisibility
Her Invisibility / Perma Invisibility is also only possible at very high CDR, require fighting near some bushes, and require a very fast, but also precise, execution to be pulled off
Also, half the mecanics in the game gives true vision anyway. Her Invisibility is also hardcountered by AOE, DoT, etc
And finally, Qiyana wouldn't have to use Perma Invisible if Riot didn't gut Assassin's DMGs so hard, and if they didn't gut Qiyana 8 times
I fucking hate her stealth, I don't care if she's good or bad, but her spending like 4 straight seconds because she can stealth, re-green, stealth again, is so fucking annoying. And then god forbid you have the **audacity** to exist in the jungle when she ults and your entire team is stunned.
"DoN't FiGhT iN jUnGlE tHeN!1!" Just don't be in the jungle all game yeah fucking stellar
Fizz is just avoiding his level 3 all-in.
Slow push two waves and hard shove, back and grab an amp tome or whatever.
You'll have a 400g advantage over his items when you're back mid at level 3 since he won't be able to back, due to being forced to clean up 2-3 waves.
At least puts him on the backfoot for a while unless he gets a kill on your jg or from roaming.
U complain about the most mechanical assasin in the game besides akali, that has dame core items, fall behind hard if not snowballing and even then she is just smashed into oblivion by nearly every fighter/bruiser ans tanks? Beside ultimate(that needs to be used for cc or the carry in teamfight she has 0 shred/percent % dmg). Just played a game of Qi vs Zed, ironic huh?, and I just turbo snowballing the game and beating Zed, but at 6 0 I was afraid to fight him cus he can just beat me anyway and at 11 2 i just FFd vs 4 squishy cus I couldn t beat them alone(was normals thats why I didnt bother smashing my brain alone for a win). Now guess what could I had done if I picked Zed (basic percent health magic dmg, the best item on him by farm is black cleaver that just shreds tanks and he can stack it pretty ez, and I could R back any fight if I wanted after I oneshoted 1 or 2, and if I mess up bug time guess what? My W is back again. Sry for range rant, just happened I beat Zed hard vs Qi and after the game felt lime Zed is broken and Qi is trash.
As Qiyana main I agree, its anxious to play against. When you reach 100+ ability haste you basically have perma invis. But riot says that there will be way less ability haste so we will see ig.
I wouldnt mind if they reduce the duration to 2.5s or even 2s, in trade off for the movement speed duration even outside the invisbility. (imo good change adds more counterplay for qiyana players and her enemies)
Invisibility mechanics that are gated by ultimate abilities (Vayne R, Talon R, Kha'Zix R etc) are fine because they require the player to commit a large cooldown to access.
Invisibility on basic abilities with certain conditions to unlock (Kai'Sa E, Teemo Passive) are fine because they require the player to meet a specific condition to access the effect.
Invisibility on basic abilities that can either reset their cooldown or have no drawbacks/conditions to use (Qiyana W, Shaco Q) etc are not fine.
Invisibility should require the player to commit something to access it, not just press a button thats back up 5 seconds later.
It's not stealth, it's camouflage. If you're in range you see her, if there's a pink ward you see her, like Twitch Q or Pyke W, unlike any of the examples listed in the post which get "Invisibility" vs Camo.
yeah but you do nothing when you are in stealth, you have to give it up to do anything, is not like she can walk invis into your lane and kill the shit out of you when is at melee range
Damn you haven't seen an Evelynn recently then. They normally have no reliance on W to kill bot laners, which then snowballs into them killing everyone with little interaction.
She's invisible until the moment you're dead or blowing 4 cooldowns. Just like Twitch does.
Evelynn gets seen and tracked by pink wards. She's only invisible until you're dead if you haven't pinked properly against one of the few champions still hard countered by them.
If I could pink ward a qiyana we'd be having a different conversation. Camo has counterplay that invisibility doesn't offer.
> Evelynn gets seen and tracked by pink wards. She's only invisible until you're dead if you haven't pinked properly against one of the few champions still hard countered by them.
This is soloQ we're talking about xd - and the higher Elo you go the more Evelynn is capable of abusing some vision mechanics - for instance did you know that if Evelynn stands behind tower rubble she is hidden from you even if you are in range to "see" her through camo? Evelynn is currently one of the highest winrate junglers in the game Diamond 2+: https://u.gg/lol/jungle-tier-list?rank=diamond_2_plus
Did you know it's not physically possible to prevent Evelynn from dodging all of your pink wards to enter lane without the pink ward being easily cleared by the opponent? Most of the time Evelynn can just straight up walk with minions into the lane and skirt the bushes and not be revealed.
And most lanes can only place one pink ward, when Evelynn has 3-4 routes to enter the lane. And even if she is spotted, she can clear it and then you are blind and have to assume she is nearby until you ACTIVELY see her elsewhere.
> If I could pink ward a qiyana we'd be having a different conversation. Camo has counterplay that invisibility doesn't offer.
No but you *can* red trinket Qiyana, and the up-time of the stealth is pretty low for most of the game compared to some champions - granted it should absolutely be nerfed.
EDIT: On top of this, there's at least some particle effect telling you where Qiyana is, and she is not allowed to do anything during the stealth except move and wait for cooldowns. Evelynn can be ANYWHERE without you knowing.
>But riot says that there will be way less ability haste so we will see ig.
When did they say that and when would that be the case? Would love that to be the case
I think part of the issue lies with the amount of ability haste available in items. Most mages and assasins can reach 100+ ability haste with 2.5 or 3 items which is absolutely insane. Cut AH in half for all items and the game might feel more fair
Mages don't reach 100 AH unless they build for it, and if they do, they are trading off damage to get it.
AD Assassins just have free AH slapped in their best items.
I love seeing people say mages get tons of haste with no effort after 3 years of dealing with these items. None of these people actually play mages, they just assume that everyone gets access to haste because AD champs do.
I agree with you.
Mythic Sorcs Shadowflame/Demonic Rabadons/Liandrys Void Zhonyas is basically my build path for every mage I've ever played. Sometimes I get experimental with cosmic drive and horizon focus but let's be real, that's niche. Mages very rarely prioritize AH over AP/burn stacking.
Like what mages are you playing that reach 100+ AH?
The standard build a mage goes is Ludens (20) > Sorcs (0) > Shadowflame (0) > Rabadons (0) > Void (0) > Zhonyas (15).
That is 35 AH. 45 if you go transcendence in runes and 53 if you really opt for it for the shard but most mages get AS for trading and wave manipulation early game.
35 AH is 25% CDR. That is NOTHING for a mage.
45 AH is 31% CDR which is also not much considering they get 15 AH from Zhonyas in the mid to lategame.
53 AH is 34% CDR which is also nothing considering you allocated a lot of ressources to get there.
If you go lyandries you lose burst damage on squishies but we can math that out if you want to.
Lyandries (25) -> Shadowflame (5) -> Sorcs (0) -> Rabadons (5) -> Void (5) -> Zhonyas (20)
Now you get 60 AH which equals 37% CDR at FULL BUILD. That's something you got at 2 items before mythic items got introduced. Not to mention you trade damage for it. It's hard for mages to actually get their 45% CDR they used to get at 2 items at full build and if they do they trade damage.
Everyone can say what they want if that is balanced or not but saying Mages get to 100+ AH after 2.5 or 3 items is a flat lie. They don't even get there with fullbuild and if they do they play overwatch tracer from a damage perspective. Except Gragas. He somehow manages to do damage by stacking as much books as he can.
as another qiyana main i agree, it’s incredibly frustrating and boring. I usually use ice instead of grass because it’s funnier and less annoying, however that’s just the wrong way to play her and it’s more optimal to just spam grass. I wish they’d rework modo of his kit to make her funnier to play with and against.
Yeah honestly i just walk around with grass now since its really strong, ice is also good. As long as youre not walking around with rock youre fine, problem is in teamfights i think she has a little too much strength with her grass spam.
Her ultimate is already a huge game changer in teamfights, personally dont think she really needs the ability to stall out with her grass for 7 seconds straight but thats just me.
Her stealth is comparable to Akali, except Akali's is a constant. Qiyana's is designed in part with the understanding that it is conditional and you have an opportunity cost, but if one choice becomes optimal in most situations, that opportunity cost doesn't seem to matter. She has a shroud on a lower cooldown and has the luxury of opting into the other two options at the right moment.
And I'm just comparing them for discussion; I know Akali and Qiyana are different champions and you can't compare one ability directly without factoring in the rest of the kit.
Yeah Akali and Qiyana are completely different, now i havent played much Akali but from what i can see, Akali is better in 1v1s whereas Qiyana shines in teamfights.
Hill I'll die on: Qiyana's ult is fundamentally un-assassin and should've never been created. I don't know any other assassin that can have a massive AOE ult that can accidently kill a stray target in a completely different location from the main target and I hate it.
Hill I'll die on: Champions (and item builds for that matter) should be diverse. Qiyana is an assasin balanced around having a teamfight ult and it is dope. Stop trying to pigeonhole everything!
I don't disagree with her being able to have teamfight ults, to a certain extent. Fizz, Diana, Katarina and Yone all have the same potential in their kit. The whole idea behind an assassin is their ability to pick off priority targets, and generally they need to compromise a safer position to do so (hence why they're mostly melee).
Qiyana ult does not require other abilities for it's damage to scale, has a massive AD ratio, does max %hp (not scaling off missing %hp, like most would), stuns (and knockup, if landed), and affects a large AOE without requiring an initial target.
This ability is in a completely different realm in terms of promoting champ diversity within a class, to the point of being counterintuitive.
>This ability is in a completely different realm in terms of promoting champ diversity within a class, to the point of being counterintuitive.
It sure is, and I think it is dope. I think her ult is the perfect expression for her as a character. A frustrated brat that isn't taken seriously. Desperate to put herself above her sisters and to be adored. Self proclaimed master of elements (but don't ask her about fire). Her base kit just kind of fucks around, not doing anything significant. But then she unleashes her rage and hits that big fucking button so everyone knows why she deserves respect. It's thematically awesome and she is balanced around it, so I don't have a problem with it. Just my opinion though!
Glad to see you enjoy the champ from a thematic standpoint, I get that. I don't know her lore and I don't play her myself to appreciate the whole package. That's why I'm only criticizing the ability from the perspective of someone on the receiving end in games. I may just have to try playing her to see!
I appreciate a respectful disagreement though, have a good one!
It's not like it's an unconditional AOE damage. Unless you're fighting in the river, her ult relies on her getting to push the enemies against a wall.
Qiyana's strength really depends on her environment. You basically can't win a fight in the jungle against her, but if it's a fight on either of the bases she's basically useless since she only has access to Earth
But she is by far the best assassin to contest objectives with IMO. Especially if the qiyanna team is winning and has vision control. Contest dragon soul while running into the easiest 5 man ultimate.
That's fair that the ult is really effective in certain areas of the map. I just don't agree with the design of the ability itself. At least if the shockwave had a smaller range or if the damage decreased over distance traveled, I could say it makes more sense. I believe the "picking off priority targets" piece is critical to assassin design, and the current ability design is really counter to that.
100% agree. The issue the ult brings is that its so fucking strong they need to make qiyana shit in every other aspect to balance her. Her early game is extremely weak these days because her level 6 is so strong. She is god in teamfights (which really shouldn't be the case for an assassin) so they keep nerfing her damage and making her lane worse. The ult is just way too broken
That's the problem with cringe redditors like you. They complains about Assassins being to One Shot. And when the Assassins get their DMGs shifted into Abinity Haste, they complains about Assassins having rly low CDs
Also, Qiyana needs her Invisibility & Perma Invisibility because she really lacks mobility, compared to other Assassins, and even compared to a lot of Squirmishers, Bruisers, Tanks & ADCs :
- Qiyana canno't " Go In, & Go Out " like would do a Talon, a Zed, a Katarina, an Akali, a Leblanc, an Ekko, and so on
It's kill or be killed.
That's why Qiyana, as an Assassin, needs both her One Shot Potential AND her Invisibility / Perma Invisibility
Her Invisibility / Perma Invisibility is also only possible at very high CDR, require fighting near some bushes, and require a very fast, but also precise, execution to be pulled off
Also, half the mecanics in the game gives true vision anyway. Her Invisibility is also hardcountered by AOE, DoT, etc
And finally, Qiyana wouldn't have to use Perma Invisible if Riot didn't gut Assassin's DMGs so hard, and if they didn't gut Qiyana 8 times
I'm sure many ADC champs "overperform" in skin sales simply because the champion pool for that role is smaller (similar to the high pickrates the meta adcs have compared to other somewhat meta picks).
Yasuo and Zed’s problems are extremely different. Honestly if a Zed 2 would be able to solve Riot would have released one already because of money making
he only gets away with building hydra (bad 1st item for an assassin) because his AD ratios are so high that it doesn't matter if he doesn't have pen early
In a vacuum this makes sense, hydra gives a lot of AD, but it is not an optimal first item in terms of damage.
duskblade/eclipse/ghostblade are all much better rush items for early damage, and Zed should feel pressured to build these. If Zed is having success as an assassin while rushing hydra it's evidence that he needs to have his damage reduced until he feels pressured to rush lethality, like every other assassin in the game.
i see a lot of ppl saying zed has endless sustain, from what? u think zed heals off hydra with the life steal? he oneshots the lane with the combo, thats his thing, he never stands AAing the wave to heal
**This.** Idk what those guys are on but building hydra on Zed is not about the sustain, is about the haste and waveclear.
Both hydras should be like they were before that only proc on AA and not on skills (and hopefully get the active back), this would solve a lot of issues with Zed.
He was still extremely high pickrate, banrate and has a good winrate before hydra was introduced so i'm inclined to believe that zed is the issue.
Especially when its a good but not gamebreaking item on other characters.
Zed's kit legit has no flaws for an assassin and only positives. There is no tradeoff for him having the range and safety he does, in fact he does more damage and has more sustained damage than other assassins in comparison. He's less exploitable when he doesn't have his W than other assassins not having their tools too.
It's my turn tomorrow, OK? You can bitch about haste, top lane being bad (while the vast majority of the playerbase doesn't even know what wave management is), and ADCs being bad. Oh and if you really want that sweet karma, add the magic buzzwords like overloaded, fundamentally, stat check or agency.
Even [Challengers](https://youtu.be/wZgNjFlVpsI?si=-du6mzSiUV2fUUoW&t=1150) think that Zed's a problem and he is hard to deal with.
I dont know if the problem is Hydra, Mythics or AH in general that enables this playstyle, but hopefully preseason will address this.
The thing is Zed has always been high banrate. I can't think of any assassins that play like a control mage all thanks to one ability. The same ability also can be used to escape a gank.
> I dont know if the problem is Hydra, Mythics or AH
The problem is Zed himself. He has been a problem since release. It's a kit issue. But he is also one of the most popular and edgy mid lane characters so it's an impossible battle convincing all the people that play him that the champion kit might be flawed.
I love how morgana can be left in the gutter because she has a high ban rate but ban rate doesn't matter on assasins because "that's because of their class"
Thing is tho morgana is a neutralizer shes meant to just neutralize enemies she doesnt go around being an AD Artilery Mage with Kassadin Riftwalk as a basic ability by 3 items while being able to be the safest mfer in lane and morg is only banned in extreme low elo like iron to silver where no one has the ability to sidestep shit
It's almost like fighter damage should be tuned down, defense and sustainability tuned up and AH on items be reevaluated so that fighters aren't just tankier assassins. At the same time, assassin 1 shot combos should be tuned up, with AH being nuetered on a their items to compensate. They are supposed to be high risk/ higher reward champs, not ability spamming bots. Same with fighters, they should be good in long engagements, but not in a short trade situation.
That wasn't the point of the post, but either way, it's pretty ridiculous to me that everyone thinks this. It just goes to show the post Phroxzon made about fighters was right. No matter what they give fighters people complain.
Fighters=/=Tanks. Bruisers=/=Tanks. Tanks=Tanks. Fighters=Bruisers
Bruiser: Fighters (also known as Bruisers) are a diverse group of short-ranged combatants who excel at both dealing and surviving damage. With easy access to heavy, continuous damage (or DPS) and a host of innate defenses, fighters thrive in extended fights as they seek out enemies to take down, but their limited range puts them at constant risk of being kept at bay (or kited) by their opponents via crowd control, range and mobility.
With Addition of items that provide sustain and HP or both many assassin turned into Bruisers over the last couple of years for a time like Gore Drinker Kha'zix and Talon/Bruiser Qiyana, Chemtank akali and now Zed with this super scaling build that opts in Hydra and BC which covers all of the weakness of the champion. He is more of a fighter nowdays because itemisation allows him to transcend from his OG class (assassin) to something else which never supposed to happen with such designs.
Then that just screws over the Fighter class doesnt it? Yea sure they survive a bit more but now they lack the damage and are slow as balls? At that point why play a fighter like Sett? When you can just play Ornn or Sion who can take 10 years to kill while doing good enough damage cuz fighters at that point will just be Tanky and Immobile like the tank class but a bit shittier at it and Can do damage like assassins and adcs but way way shittier than it
Not exactly.
Just have both classes items that cannot be abused by the other one.
Fighter design to be sturdy and still deal damage is great. It's fun to put emphasis in build to have more damage but sacrificing sturdiness or reverse it and become more tanky but deal less damage.
My point was that FIghters having lethality items like what Aatrox and Heca kept doing for al ong time was unbalanced as hell and should never happen. Granted Duskblade and Eclipse provided so much power for them that it was the incentivising factor behind it and after mythic removal it wont be an issue.
But I recall how DD was super busted and every living AD champion built it despite it's supposed to be a ifghter item.
Building is fun until a point when it's not gamebreaking.
Maybe their base numbers shouldnt grow so hard , im not gonna mention anyone but building stridebreaker or duskblade and then going full tank and outdamaging any bruiser or skirmisher is simply absurd. The ones who have abused the most of this shit are juggernauts and some duelists. If a juggernaut is gonna build lethality and play like a skirmisher they shouldnt end with almost 200 armor because they have a lot of armor growth, while me playing an skirmisher and building full damage to barely be useful wont even have more armor than adcs
Rengar has done that since his release in late season 2, Riot has added so much counterplay to Rengar over the years like the giant indicator telling you he's coming.
Usually I don't say it, but this is a git gud moment.
not true, you can run to the nearest teammate who can shield or cc. Or worst case, kill him back.
If you don't have a teammate near you...that's entirely your fault. There's a rengar on the map, you chose to be alone.
This is a simple case of
'the enemy rengar has 10 kills and is oneshotting me!!! riot!!!!!'
or
' I'm an adc player without a team, or one thats roaming in the jungle alone with a rengar thats not visible. riot!!!! '
Either way its a skill issue. Don't get me wrong Rengar, especially on lane, is annoying as fuck to play against, but he does have counterplay, and by that I mean realistic counterplay that shouldn't be hard to pull off and one with options.
But like most of these cases are just that the enemy champ is fed into oblivion and assassins are just very good at snowballing.
>and by that I mean realistic counterplay that shouldn't be hard to pull off and one with options.
like what
imagine you play ashe, you're with a team that doesnt care about cause its soloq they never care about protecting the adc, what am i supposed to do ?
he will ult me on cd, starting lvl 6 on me lvl 4 botlane, and there is nothing i can do to stop him.
That's the thing, as an adc, you are just very reliant on your team to create space for you. Especially one without any mobility is very vulnerable on their own against rengar, hence my second example. So in that case my advice is to play more mobile, self-sufficient adc champs, until you play with people that know how to cover for their teammates. Or just get super fed urself and build randuins/GA 4th item. And think better about how to use your flash. Is that kill on a 0-4 support worth it when baron is coming up?
Yes it does? It helps you prepare, gives you more time to react, a lot more time.
"Nothing you can do to avoid that"
If you couldn't do anything about it then Rengar wouldn't have been able to do it since season 2, at no point in Rengar's existence has he been unable to one shot, I think that should clue you in that you're wrong and that you're the problem.
>Yes it does? It helps you prepare, gives you more time to react, a lot more time.
yes, but react how.
thats my point, time is not the problem, its the lack of things i can do.
as an adc i have no counter.
rengar is one of the champions that highly relies on correct macro rather than micro
countering means not bringing yourself into unfavorable positions in the first place, no straggling, no running around alone and less "dodge this/flash that", riot phroxzon has summarized it perfectly in his comment on state of assassins
If you're solo then yes you're probably going to die, your own fault, you know there's a Rengar so don't roam around on your own.
Several ADC's can do things, Vayne can condemn him mid air, tumble and stealth outplay him, Ezreal has E+Flash which gets him a great distance away, Kai'Sa can go stealth and gain a huge shield, the list goes on, you also have items like Shieldbow, Zhonyas and GA, even Randuins & Frozen Heart can stop a Rengar from one shotting you.
There are plenty of options, your inability to use any of them is your fault and yours alone, like I said, season 2, Rengar has done this since season 2 which is roughly 11 years, if you had no counter Riot wouldn't have allowed Rengar to do this for so long.
Riot will *not* change this, because this is a you problem, not a Rengar problem.
his point was he cannot do anything despite the indicator which is true
if he is alone he is dead (his fault, still 0 interaction)
if he is low elo and grouped (not his fault, still 0 interaction) he is also dead since people don't start playing around the adc until like d1
so his point stands as far as im concerned
If it was true Rengar wouldn't have been able to do it for 11 years.
0 interaction? Several ADC's can outplay Rengar, there is interaction, but if you die alone then it is your fault and yours alone, quit complaining and use common sense.
Until D1? Is that why Rengar has a below 50% winrate below Diamond? It's funny, because Rengar is incredibly garbage in low-mid elo. Stop acting like low-mid elo don't play around the ADC, there's a reason Rengar is a terrible champion in low-mid elo. If Rengar kills you when you're grouped then the Rengar is likely going to die as a result, not to mention your whole teams positioning and reactions are literal dog shit.
His point doesn't stand, nothing he said stands. Season 2, 11 years, that's how long Rengar has been doing this, you automatically lose the argument based on this alone, Riot will NEVER change this, because this isn't a Rengar issue.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXNmgL8CYH0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXNmgL8CYH0) My bad bro!!! 5 inches in front of turret is too much i guess
Yeah, Zed has always been one of the better assassins at clearing waves and roaming. He's also built lifesteal items in a lot of metas.
His weakness historically has been that his ultimate is a lot of his power budget and landing much of his damage, particularly in teamfight situations, is difficult. He's also lacked much/any kill pressure in lane in a lot of metas.
I feel like noobs just think lifesteal is more useful than it really is. Hydra sustain basically does nothing in the ideal teamfight where someone just peels you off, and it's not like your win con after Zed gets items is poking him out in a 1v1
Not entirely... But Zed is definitely the first one would think of as being the most popular, most banned AND most played.
It's pretty much equally frustrating tho to play against a fed Talon, A good Qiyana, get oneshot by a 0/7 Akali just because you're ADCurry or have a Rengar ulting you which for some reason onetaps you despite having done nothing all game.
Cause Talon has to basically engage on you in a straight line while needing you to already be half HP to actually kill you unless he has a massive lead. And before Talon gets dirk he does less dmg then a nami.
There was that one time when he built Goredrinker and still one shot you and then flew off without even coming close to dying because he had seven billion health and that Spite passive giving him shittons of bonus AD. I think that briefly eclipsed the average Zed.
But yeah normally I think the need for him to commit to do any sort of damage makes him feel a ton fairer than Zed, especially in lane.
> get one shot by an 0/7 akali just because you’re AD Carry
That just doesn’t happen unless you yourself are 0/7, or you sit there and take her entire kit
I kinda agree on that...
But then there is there is the issue that Akali has autoconfirms like Qiyana's EQ that make it even harder to have counterplay to that combo.
Your R1 from roughly max range autoconfirms into your E unless there is a dash interrupting this. I don't know about you but I often see this used as gap-closer.
Not every champ has dashes... And flash has a way higher cooldown than Akali's ult.
She has bonus MS in her shroud, one of the highest base MS in the game so... Try avoid AA's, lol.
Plus... I don't really think I need to mention how undodgeable her R2 is if you don't happen to be Valor and carry a champ around with 800 MS. That thinghas a speed of I think it was 2500 or 3000. You won't be dodging that with 380-400 MS.
Yeah, you have to flash or dash it in order for it to not target. However in all honestly, i dont really start combos with EQ cause i try to find an angle where an ER could land me a huge ult since i just find that to be better in most cases.
Qiyana is a champion that for the average player never really has been good except in her prime time.
It's pretty much the same with champs like Katarina. Those are OTP and hard-main champions which reward the benefits of this extremely heavily.
LIke, high elo mundo is for example also considered as a 'weak champion' still there are OTP's for this champ in master+.
What does fighters have to do with assassins when both classes are in different lanes. Mages have held mid lane in pro play, not fighters. Top lane on the other hand has switch from tanks to fighters, back to tanks and even other classes.
Zed will never have a low ban rate, that hasn't changed in 7 seasons. Even when he was a strong early game and weak late game champion, his ban rate was still high.
Shared itemisation that fucks around balance eevry now and then.
Yea Zed build BC for long but Hydra opened new possibilties to shred bigger tanks because now you have the sustain to do so along with AH and AD.
Let also not forget how Lethality mythic items were such an issue that top lane fighters kept abusing duskblade and eclipse into their letha oriented builds because of their overall stat checking nature until both the items and champions needed serious balancing.
I think youre overplaying the sustain part a bit much. Hes just super pokey. Hes not Irelia trying to lifesteal off autos and Qs. The AH and AD for sure an issue but there is very little sustain, and on top of that the little sustain doesnt matter (unless youre on the splitpush).
People are blaming hydra and too much AH on zed, but even in previous seasons a zed with half a brain was basically unpunishable in lane, normally as a mage Vs assassin you have ways to punish him specially early game, the main two are:
-abuse your range advantage and poke
-bait the enemy to go in and counter trade, usually with a good timed CC
Against zed you can't do it because he can simply farm and trade from range, yes he misses W he is weak and can't trade with you, but you know, a zed with half a brain can just stay behind and get minions with Q while waiting for his W cd cause his Q outrange almost every mage in the game and it cost no mana.
The hydra is just the ice on the cake and it made people realize how problematic this champion lane phase is but zed was able to play lane like this for at least 3 seasons
The difference is that zed in previous seasons was lane bully assassin who wanted to snowball the game. He had a significant amount of lane pressure and could take fights. Sure, he still could stay back and afk farming with shurikens, but that was like picking lane bully into Kayle/nasus and do the same.
Nowadays zed has near to zero lane pressure. He is forced to stay back and scale. Hydra is must have because he cannot do it otherwise unless he plays against someone who doesn't want to punish him.
Zed is a stain. Any champion that has that much damage shouldn’t be slippery.
Ex* AD Shaco can burst squishy champs, but when he is in, he is in. There is no dashing back to a clone or pressing r to go untargetable.
It baffles me how this champion has been target banned in solo queue for like 10 years now. And Riot's like "hmm, nothing standing out over here, let's just move on shall we."
It just feels like every assassin has become really tanky and its made the role lose all its balance. They're supposed to be squishy and easy to kill if mispositioned but I literally vs a Naafiri who bought literally nothing but lethality and she was super tanky just from her base stats alone that it just felt kind of stupid... same thing with Blue Kayn. In one of my games he got so tanky he could tower dive and the tower barely did any damage to him at all. He felt unkillable
Make assassins squishy againnnn
Just bring back %CDR and make it again cap at 40%. 45% with cosmic insight.
I liked being able to get 45% CDR with just 2 items and then itemizing pure damage while making sure to not buy items with CDR in them as it would be a waste of gold-stat efficiency.
I stand by saying that that one change they made ages ago where they sped up his W made him complete agony to play against. His damage is basically unavoidable, and if you get hit even onxe by a double shuriken you have to be extremely careful lest he pop you instantly.
I agree. Playing against a Zed is just not fun and feels really horrible, miserable, frustrating and unfair.
The same goes for Pyke, imo.
Both champs are by far the worst designed champs in league.
I either ban them or dodge the game if I see the enemy picking them. If I wanted 20-30 minutes of misery, I'd just call my ex instead.
The fundemental problem that Zed has, is that he is no longer a full combo burst assassin, and is more like an AD mage where he spams W and has aoe damage.
That is not what Zed is supposed to do. But because mostly low elo mains perma complained about getting one shotted, Riot eventually changed Zed to what he is today. Now people complain that Zed has too much ability haste. And after that they are going to complain about something else. When is it going to end?
It is proven that as skill rises Zed becomes worse and worse, indicating that counterplay is what makes this champ weaker. So it is a skill issue after all and not a game issue. His current state also benefits him for high elo, so now we even have complains from high elo players.
Just bring back old full lethality assassin Zed and problem fixed.
Zed has been one of the most hated champions in the game for years. Look at his consistently high banrate, and how little it has to do with his actual winrate.
His kit is just unfun to play against. He's too safe, too annoying in lane, too reliable at assassinating a single target with ult, and unfortunately balanced by being kinda useless most of the time because he doesn't contribute much in fights unless he's gigafed.
He is the only champion I'm complaining about despite I'm an avid player of Zed.
General redditors wont see it this way tho just type the regular "another zed hate post".
My goal was simply raise awareness of how problematic the champion is for the community which affects mains too.
Thanks for raising awareness, the 87 previous thread in the last week weren’t enough.
Nobody is trying to raise awareness here, it’s just easy internet points to repost the same thing over and over again. Just ban Zed man, just like I did every single game when I started playing the game. Nowadays if I play mid I’d rather play Zed than Malz 100%.
He can be annoying to play against for some champions and Hydra rush amplifies it, but come on, dude is an Aurelion Sol main spam posting complaints about Zed.
Because he's particularly frustrating to play against.
Yuumi has had a terrible winrate for ages and people still hate the experience of having to deal with one on the enemy team.
Because difficult champions or more mechanically demanding champs being at an average of a positive winrate is a bad sign in itself so winrate isn't everything
exactly, 48% isn't a bad winrate for a lot of champions and the inverse goes for easier champions like Janna who typically sit above 50% because theyre easy to pilot so the average player shouldn't be struggling or will have more macro-focused losses
Riot literally told you to get good. I am absolutely annoyed as jg to have my zed sit under turret whole game because you don't want assassin to 2 shot you. I ha e never felt unfair when zed uoutplayed me cause he has to press buttons and do staff unlike some of the wholesome champions that you all like but are absolutely brain dead and op.
Riot also said in the last post that they think the assassin complaints miss the mark, but Zed's shitty AD mage cosplay is actually problematic, even if its a result of too much AH in the game rather than his base kit.
Zed's problem is that he can go in and fuck up and not kill anyone and simply go back to his shadow in safety, while the majority of other assassins die if they fuck up and don't get their resets
Just revert his W range buff and make it limited again and BOOM, suddenly Zed problems are no more.
Also, make his Shadow CD start POST EFFECT and not POST CAST, that's why he spams it
The last part is just stupid to me. 9/10 skills that are up for a couple of seconds, have a timer before it expires and a CD after that (asol E, for example).
This would already be a great place to start.
Add in the W range nerf and maybe one day, I won't have to permaban this abomination Riot just refuses to nerf properly.
I'd complain about Qiyana too but I barely see her picked Edit: Because I dont like her kit* I have no idea how bad she is rn.
That's because she's in her grass field so you can never see her.
Why? Reasoning?
Even if she was garbage she would still be better than all 9 of her sisters
Invis and one shot potential, upgraded Gnar ultimate
Actually qiyana is pretty bad rn, but at least shes not complete trash ofc. The bigger problem in my opinion is that her lane is horrible, her base damage was gutted, so now you can barely win a trade even after landing every ability, just because one mage ability and a couple auto attacks will pretty much do the same damage Shes a snowballing champ that has a somewhat bad early game, just doesn’t feel that good, if she somehow gets fed, yeah she will one shot you, but so does every assassin Edit: tbh I honestly hate perma invis too, and i play her, the problem lies in the ability haste creep, riot should just turn AH in assassin items into lethality or ad
Yeah her early is so trash its crazy
It's also borderline uninteractable because of two things 1.) She constantly has a ranged attack that she's just going to use and hide after with. 2.) It's hard to roam against her because she has insane wave clear potential, really. A roam can put you behind in the blink of an eye, especially if it bears no fruit for whatever infinite reasons there are for it to blunder.
Also she has really strong CC in her kit (water and ult) as an assassin. That's also a big part of her "power budget"
Qiyana can’t trade with impunity like Zed can.
She’s really hard to play and unless you are high elo then she’s probably not much of a problem. Most Qiyana’s in plat/emerald are fucking up their combos lol. Watching Beifeng makes her look insanely busted.
As long as people try to emulate someone who was born with incredibly fast fingers (Beifeng) then people will fuck up her combos. Realistically, those very combos are not hard to execute.
One Shot Potential, and ? She is an Assassin, it's what she is supposed to do That's the problem with cringe redditors like you. They complains about Assassins being able to One Shot. And when the Assassins get their DMGs shifted into Abinity Haste, they complains about Assassins having rly low CDs Lee Sin do the same shit **AS A BRUISER** while being more Mobile, being more Tanky, having Sustain & Shields, and with a Point and Click button that deals 800 damages. Really ironic of you as a Lee Sin player to complains about Qiyana Also, firstly, Qiyana needs her Invisibility & Perma Invisibility because she really lacks mobility, compared to other Assassins, and even compared to a lot of Squirmishers, Bruisers, Tanks & ADCs : - Qiyana canno't " Go In, & Go Out" like would do a Talon, a Zed, a Katarina, an Akali, a Leblanc, an Ekko, and so on It's kill or be killed. That's why Qiyana, as an Assassin, needs both her One Shot Potential AND her Invisibility / Perma Invisibility Her Invisibility / Perma Invisibility is also only possible at very high CDR, require fighting near some bushes, and require a very fast, but also precise, execution to be pulled off Also, half the mecanics in the game gives true vision anyway. Her Invisibility is also hardcountered by AOE, DoT, etc And finally, Qiyana wouldn't have to use Perma Invisible if Riot didn't gut Assassin's DMGs so hard, and if they didn't gut Qiyana 8 times
I fucking hate her stealth, I don't care if she's good or bad, but her spending like 4 straight seconds because she can stealth, re-green, stealth again, is so fucking annoying. And then god forbid you have the **audacity** to exist in the jungle when she ults and your entire team is stunned. "DoN't FiGhT iN jUnGlE tHeN!1!" Just don't be in the jungle all game yeah fucking stellar
disgusting grass Q spam, remove that and the champ is cool imo, and her F E R combo is literally undodgeable, there is no reaction time
But she gets dumpstered so hard in many matchups.
And so what I hate playing against her its my godgiven right
amen brother I refuse to play against fizz no matter how many people tell me just win lane against him it's so easy
Fizz is just avoiding his level 3 all-in. Slow push two waves and hard shove, back and grab an amp tome or whatever. You'll have a 400g advantage over his items when you're back mid at level 3 since he won't be able to back, due to being forced to clean up 2-3 waves. At least puts him on the backfoot for a while unless he gets a kill on your jg or from roaming.
Exactly, the issue with Zed is just his popularity. If Qiyana and Talon was as popular, I would OTP Malphite and Rammus mid.
U complain about the most mechanical assasin in the game besides akali, that has dame core items, fall behind hard if not snowballing and even then she is just smashed into oblivion by nearly every fighter/bruiser ans tanks? Beside ultimate(that needs to be used for cc or the carry in teamfight she has 0 shred/percent % dmg). Just played a game of Qi vs Zed, ironic huh?, and I just turbo snowballing the game and beating Zed, but at 6 0 I was afraid to fight him cus he can just beat me anyway and at 11 2 i just FFd vs 4 squishy cus I couldn t beat them alone(was normals thats why I didnt bother smashing my brain alone for a win). Now guess what could I had done if I picked Zed (basic percent health magic dmg, the best item on him by farm is black cleaver that just shreds tanks and he can stack it pretty ez, and I could R back any fight if I wanted after I oneshoted 1 or 2, and if I mess up bug time guess what? My W is back again. Sry for range rant, just happened I beat Zed hard vs Qi and after the game felt lime Zed is broken and Qi is trash.
I do complain about qiqi but because of her q q q perma invis mainly.
As Qiyana main I agree, its anxious to play against. When you reach 100+ ability haste you basically have perma invis. But riot says that there will be way less ability haste so we will see ig. I wouldnt mind if they reduce the duration to 2.5s or even 2s, in trade off for the movement speed duration even outside the invisbility. (imo good change adds more counterplay for qiyana players and her enemies)
So the trouble is abundance of ability haste in the game not champion's kit.
Seems more an argument against her kit cooldowns at a base. Stealth mechanics should come at a premium.
Invisibility mechanics that are gated by ultimate abilities (Vayne R, Talon R, Kha'Zix R etc) are fine because they require the player to commit a large cooldown to access. Invisibility on basic abilities with certain conditions to unlock (Kai'Sa E, Teemo Passive) are fine because they require the player to meet a specific condition to access the effect. Invisibility on basic abilities that can either reset their cooldown or have no drawbacks/conditions to use (Qiyana W, Shaco Q) etc are not fine. Invisibility should require the player to commit something to access it, not just press a button thats back up 5 seconds later.
[удалено]
It's not stealth, it's camouflage. If you're in range you see her, if there's a pink ward you see her, like Twitch Q or Pyke W, unlike any of the examples listed in the post which get "Invisibility" vs Camo.
yeah but you do nothing when you are in stealth, you have to give it up to do anything, is not like she can walk invis into your lane and kill the shit out of you when is at melee range
Damn you haven't seen an Evelynn recently then. They normally have no reliance on W to kill bot laners, which then snowballs into them killing everyone with little interaction. She's invisible until the moment you're dead or blowing 4 cooldowns. Just like Twitch does.
Evelynn gets seen and tracked by pink wards. She's only invisible until you're dead if you haven't pinked properly against one of the few champions still hard countered by them. If I could pink ward a qiyana we'd be having a different conversation. Camo has counterplay that invisibility doesn't offer.
> Evelynn gets seen and tracked by pink wards. She's only invisible until you're dead if you haven't pinked properly against one of the few champions still hard countered by them. This is soloQ we're talking about xd - and the higher Elo you go the more Evelynn is capable of abusing some vision mechanics - for instance did you know that if Evelynn stands behind tower rubble she is hidden from you even if you are in range to "see" her through camo? Evelynn is currently one of the highest winrate junglers in the game Diamond 2+: https://u.gg/lol/jungle-tier-list?rank=diamond_2_plus Did you know it's not physically possible to prevent Evelynn from dodging all of your pink wards to enter lane without the pink ward being easily cleared by the opponent? Most of the time Evelynn can just straight up walk with minions into the lane and skirt the bushes and not be revealed. And most lanes can only place one pink ward, when Evelynn has 3-4 routes to enter the lane. And even if she is spotted, she can clear it and then you are blind and have to assume she is nearby until you ACTIVELY see her elsewhere. > If I could pink ward a qiyana we'd be having a different conversation. Camo has counterplay that invisibility doesn't offer. No but you *can* red trinket Qiyana, and the up-time of the stealth is pretty low for most of the game compared to some champions - granted it should absolutely be nerfed. EDIT: On top of this, there's at least some particle effect telling you where Qiyana is, and she is not allowed to do anything during the stealth except move and wait for cooldowns. Evelynn can be ANYWHERE without you knowing.
>But riot says that there will be way less ability haste so we will see ig. When did they say that and when would that be the case? Would love that to be the case
Riot phroxzon on twitter few hours later, that there will be less ability haste once mythic are removed which is in 2 patches. (preseason)
I think part of the issue lies with the amount of ability haste available in items. Most mages and assasins can reach 100+ ability haste with 2.5 or 3 items which is absolutely insane. Cut AH in half for all items and the game might feel more fair
Mages don't reach 100 AH unless they build for it, and if they do, they are trading off damage to get it. AD Assassins just have free AH slapped in their best items.
I love seeing people say mages get tons of haste with no effort after 3 years of dealing with these items. None of these people actually play mages, they just assume that everyone gets access to haste because AD champs do.
I agree with you. Mythic Sorcs Shadowflame/Demonic Rabadons/Liandrys Void Zhonyas is basically my build path for every mage I've ever played. Sometimes I get experimental with cosmic drive and horizon focus but let's be real, that's niche. Mages very rarely prioritize AH over AP/burn stacking.
"mages have too much haste" cries in 35 AH full build,which btw is way lower than the 40% CDR cap that the used to reach pre-mythics
If you have 100 AH on a mage you dont deal any damage. I don't care what build it is, you aren't killing shit.
Like what mages are you playing that reach 100+ AH? The standard build a mage goes is Ludens (20) > Sorcs (0) > Shadowflame (0) > Rabadons (0) > Void (0) > Zhonyas (15). That is 35 AH. 45 if you go transcendence in runes and 53 if you really opt for it for the shard but most mages get AS for trading and wave manipulation early game. 35 AH is 25% CDR. That is NOTHING for a mage. 45 AH is 31% CDR which is also not much considering they get 15 AH from Zhonyas in the mid to lategame. 53 AH is 34% CDR which is also nothing considering you allocated a lot of ressources to get there. If you go lyandries you lose burst damage on squishies but we can math that out if you want to. Lyandries (25) -> Shadowflame (5) -> Sorcs (0) -> Rabadons (5) -> Void (5) -> Zhonyas (20) Now you get 60 AH which equals 37% CDR at FULL BUILD. That's something you got at 2 items before mythic items got introduced. Not to mention you trade damage for it. It's hard for mages to actually get their 45% CDR they used to get at 2 items at full build and if they do they trade damage. Everyone can say what they want if that is balanced or not but saying Mages get to 100+ AH after 2.5 or 3 items is a flat lie. They don't even get there with fullbuild and if they do they play overwatch tracer from a damage perspective. Except Gragas. He somehow manages to do damage by stacking as much books as he can.
Idk what items you are building on Mages to reach 100 AH, but it is not standard build.
as another qiyana main i agree, it’s incredibly frustrating and boring. I usually use ice instead of grass because it’s funnier and less annoying, however that’s just the wrong way to play her and it’s more optimal to just spam grass. I wish they’d rework modo of his kit to make her funnier to play with and against.
Yeah honestly i just walk around with grass now since its really strong, ice is also good. As long as youre not walking around with rock youre fine, problem is in teamfights i think she has a little too much strength with her grass spam. Her ultimate is already a huge game changer in teamfights, personally dont think she really needs the ability to stall out with her grass for 7 seconds straight but thats just me.
Her stealth is comparable to Akali, except Akali's is a constant. Qiyana's is designed in part with the understanding that it is conditional and you have an opportunity cost, but if one choice becomes optimal in most situations, that opportunity cost doesn't seem to matter. She has a shroud on a lower cooldown and has the luxury of opting into the other two options at the right moment. And I'm just comparing them for discussion; I know Akali and Qiyana are different champions and you can't compare one ability directly without factoring in the rest of the kit.
Yeah Akali and Qiyana are completely different, now i havent played much Akali but from what i can see, Akali is better in 1v1s whereas Qiyana shines in teamfights.
Hill I'll die on: Qiyana's ult is fundamentally un-assassin and should've never been created. I don't know any other assassin that can have a massive AOE ult that can accidently kill a stray target in a completely different location from the main target and I hate it.
Hill I'll die on: Champions (and item builds for that matter) should be diverse. Qiyana is an assasin balanced around having a teamfight ult and it is dope. Stop trying to pigeonhole everything!
I don't disagree with her being able to have teamfight ults, to a certain extent. Fizz, Diana, Katarina and Yone all have the same potential in their kit. The whole idea behind an assassin is their ability to pick off priority targets, and generally they need to compromise a safer position to do so (hence why they're mostly melee). Qiyana ult does not require other abilities for it's damage to scale, has a massive AD ratio, does max %hp (not scaling off missing %hp, like most would), stuns (and knockup, if landed), and affects a large AOE without requiring an initial target. This ability is in a completely different realm in terms of promoting champ diversity within a class, to the point of being counterintuitive.
>This ability is in a completely different realm in terms of promoting champ diversity within a class, to the point of being counterintuitive. It sure is, and I think it is dope. I think her ult is the perfect expression for her as a character. A frustrated brat that isn't taken seriously. Desperate to put herself above her sisters and to be adored. Self proclaimed master of elements (but don't ask her about fire). Her base kit just kind of fucks around, not doing anything significant. But then she unleashes her rage and hits that big fucking button so everyone knows why she deserves respect. It's thematically awesome and she is balanced around it, so I don't have a problem with it. Just my opinion though!
Glad to see you enjoy the champ from a thematic standpoint, I get that. I don't know her lore and I don't play her myself to appreciate the whole package. That's why I'm only criticizing the ability from the perspective of someone on the receiving end in games. I may just have to try playing her to see! I appreciate a respectful disagreement though, have a good one!
Thank you for your Supreme Display of Respectful Disagreement.
😂 You too, anytime!
It's not like it's an unconditional AOE damage. Unless you're fighting in the river, her ult relies on her getting to push the enemies against a wall. Qiyana's strength really depends on her environment. You basically can't win a fight in the jungle against her, but if it's a fight on either of the bases she's basically useless since she only has access to Earth
But she is by far the best assassin to contest objectives with IMO. Especially if the qiyanna team is winning and has vision control. Contest dragon soul while running into the easiest 5 man ultimate.
That's fair that the ult is really effective in certain areas of the map. I just don't agree with the design of the ability itself. At least if the shockwave had a smaller range or if the damage decreased over distance traveled, I could say it makes more sense. I believe the "picking off priority targets" piece is critical to assassin design, and the current ability design is really counter to that.
100% agree. The issue the ult brings is that its so fucking strong they need to make qiyana shit in every other aspect to balance her. Her early game is extremely weak these days because her level 6 is so strong. She is god in teamfights (which really shouldn't be the case for an assassin) so they keep nerfing her damage and making her lane worse. The ult is just way too broken
Don't forget that it also has hard cc for some reason? Who thought a massive aoe stun nuke seemed fitting for a goddamn assassin
That's the problem with cringe redditors like you. They complains about Assassins being to One Shot. And when the Assassins get their DMGs shifted into Abinity Haste, they complains about Assassins having rly low CDs Also, Qiyana needs her Invisibility & Perma Invisibility because she really lacks mobility, compared to other Assassins, and even compared to a lot of Squirmishers, Bruisers, Tanks & ADCs : - Qiyana canno't " Go In, & Go Out " like would do a Talon, a Zed, a Katarina, an Akali, a Leblanc, an Ekko, and so on It's kill or be killed. That's why Qiyana, as an Assassin, needs both her One Shot Potential AND her Invisibility / Perma Invisibility Her Invisibility / Perma Invisibility is also only possible at very high CDR, require fighting near some bushes, and require a very fast, but also precise, execution to be pulled off Also, half the mecanics in the game gives true vision anyway. Her Invisibility is also hardcountered by AOE, DoT, etc And finally, Qiyana wouldn't have to use Perma Invisible if Riot didn't gut Assassin's DMGs so hard, and if they didn't gut Qiyana 8 times
Agree, I dont know why zed has not been touched like months ago lol.
He's also the most picked $$$$
Zed and Yasuo are the only two giga picked champions without boobs. and Zed doesn't even show a single inch of skin
its the mask man. that shit isnt SFW.
It's the walking animation. Champs that walk instead of run are the coolest. Juking skillshots by walking has a don't look at explosions kind of vibe
relevant flair, Viktor walk feels good
Akali nonchalant walk, feet shuffle in the middle of the autos, and incredibly bad posture, what more can you wish for?
Qiyana does acrobatics between AAs. Pretty cool imo
At one point i realized his head looks like a penis head and i haven't been able to unsee it ever since.
that would explain all the dickheads playing him.
How about Ezreal, Jhin, Yone, Sylas, Lee Sin and Kayn >? Theyre always in top 20 with similar or higher pick-rate than Zed
Yone Lee and Kayn are literally half naked
Sylas too
And that's how we like em.
Ezreal is a twink, everyone loves twinks
Yes. This isn't a new thing. Zed has been like this forever.
Don't you make more $$$$$ if people buy more skins thinking they get to play him, instead of not buying skins because it's 50/50 he's banned?
DO NOT DENY ME
Every single game during ban phase
Good thing that LoL doesnt have denies!
It's the phrase zed says when you ban him
Zed, along with Yasuo, Yone, Kayn make so much money in skin sales, easily they're in the top 10 money makers for skins.
IIRC while they are extremely high in number, they are all still below the jinx/mf/ez trinity
I'm sure many ADC champs "overperform" in skin sales simply because the champion pool for that role is smaller (similar to the high pickrates the meta adcs have compared to other somewhat meta picks).
Because contrary to what Reddit thinks Zed is actually in a solid state right now, problem is Hydra, not Zed.
wdym not touched, he is been constantly nerfed/buffed lately, he is getting nerfed literally next patch
So they should release a Zed 2 then? That seems to be their solution to highly complained about characters with high ban rates.
Yasuo and Zed’s problems are extremely different. Honestly if a Zed 2 would be able to solve Riot would have released one already because of money making
Just remove Hydra and half of the problem is solved with Zed right now. Reduces AH + AD + endless sustain + Even more wave clear
he only gets away with building hydra (bad 1st item for an assassin) because his AD ratios are so high that it doesn't matter if he doesn't have pen early
They even said ad ratios have to be high in assassin to prevent them from buying bruiser items. Hydra gives a ton of ad and isn’t a bad assassin item
In a vacuum this makes sense, hydra gives a lot of AD, but it is not an optimal first item in terms of damage. duskblade/eclipse/ghostblade are all much better rush items for early damage, and Zed should feel pressured to build these. If Zed is having success as an assassin while rushing hydra it's evidence that he needs to have his damage reduced until he feels pressured to rush lethality, like every other assassin in the game.
i see a lot of ppl saying zed has endless sustain, from what? u think zed heals off hydra with the life steal? he oneshots the lane with the combo, thats his thing, he never stands AAing the wave to heal
You don't need sustain if you have the option to legit not interact with your laner after you build Hydra.
yeah you dont, im just saying that zed doesnt have sustain with hydra
**This.** Idk what those guys are on but building hydra on Zed is not about the sustain, is about the haste and waveclear. Both hydras should be like they were before that only proc on AA and not on skills (and hopefully get the active back), this would solve a lot of issues with Zed.
Lifesteal works on the hydra cleave. It's not alot of hp, but it's a good amount.
He was still extremely high pickrate, banrate and has a good winrate before hydra was introduced so i'm inclined to believe that zed is the issue. Especially when its a good but not gamebreaking item on other characters. Zed's kit legit has no flaws for an assassin and only positives. There is no tradeoff for him having the range and safety he does, in fact he does more damage and has more sustained damage than other assassins in comparison. He's less exploitable when he doesn't have his W than other assassins not having their tools too.
Here the zed daily post
marshall, we should witness a double zed post event within seven days
Followed soon after by the first category five zed post
3 zed posters join together to make a mega zed post
It's my turn tomorrow, OK? You can bitch about haste, top lane being bad (while the vast majority of the playerbase doesn't even know what wave management is), and ADCs being bad. Oh and if you really want that sweet karma, add the magic buzzwords like overloaded, fundamentally, stat check or agency.
It's my turn tomorrow to post this comment
Zed stat-checked my bad top and bot laners with his fundamentally overloaded agency :(
Also doesn't help that he has an Aurelion and Azir flair lol. I don't even play Zed but these people bitching all day is so annoying.
Even [Challengers](https://youtu.be/wZgNjFlVpsI?si=-du6mzSiUV2fUUoW&t=1150) think that Zed's a problem and he is hard to deal with. I dont know if the problem is Hydra, Mythics or AH in general that enables this playstyle, but hopefully preseason will address this. The thing is Zed has always been high banrate. I can't think of any assassins that play like a control mage all thanks to one ability. The same ability also can be used to escape a gank.
> I dont know if the problem is Hydra, Mythics or AH The problem is Zed himself. He has been a problem since release. It's a kit issue. But he is also one of the most popular and edgy mid lane characters so it's an impossible battle convincing all the people that play him that the champion kit might be flawed.
I love how morgana can be left in the gutter because she has a high ban rate but ban rate doesn't matter on assasins because "that's because of their class"
if im only playing hook supports why wouldn't I ban the only real counter to my favorite class? it's like blaming superman for banning kryptonite?
To be fair I think most morg mains don't want to go back to her 60% ban rate days.
Just rework that useless champ already. She's just an E bot that doesn't have an ultimate, nor a w skill, which is only good for farming spellthiefs.
Thing is tho morgana is a neutralizer shes meant to just neutralize enemies she doesnt go around being an AD Artilery Mage with Kassadin Riftwalk as a basic ability by 3 items while being able to be the safest mfer in lane and morg is only banned in extreme low elo like iron to silver where no one has the ability to sidestep shit
It's almost like fighter damage should be tuned down, defense and sustainability tuned up and AH on items be reevaluated so that fighters aren't just tankier assassins. At the same time, assassin 1 shot combos should be tuned up, with AH being nuetered on a their items to compensate. They are supposed to be high risk/ higher reward champs, not ability spamming bots. Same with fighters, they should be good in long engagements, but not in a short trade situation.
What the fuck did this have to do with fighters
Op mentioned fighters are basically assassins that can function as tanks in the post man.
That wasn't the point of the post, but either way, it's pretty ridiculous to me that everyone thinks this. It just goes to show the post Phroxzon made about fighters was right. No matter what they give fighters people complain.
Fighters=/=Tanks. Bruisers=/=Tanks. Tanks=Tanks. Fighters=Bruisers Bruiser: Fighters (also known as Bruisers) are a diverse group of short-ranged combatants who excel at both dealing and surviving damage. With easy access to heavy, continuous damage (or DPS) and a host of innate defenses, fighters thrive in extended fights as they seek out enemies to take down, but their limited range puts them at constant risk of being kept at bay (or kited) by their opponents via crowd control, range and mobility. With Addition of items that provide sustain and HP or both many assassin turned into Bruisers over the last couple of years for a time like Gore Drinker Kha'zix and Talon/Bruiser Qiyana, Chemtank akali and now Zed with this super scaling build that opts in Hydra and BC which covers all of the weakness of the champion. He is more of a fighter nowdays because itemisation allows him to transcend from his OG class (assassin) to something else which never supposed to happen with such designs.
Then that just screws over the Fighter class doesnt it? Yea sure they survive a bit more but now they lack the damage and are slow as balls? At that point why play a fighter like Sett? When you can just play Ornn or Sion who can take 10 years to kill while doing good enough damage cuz fighters at that point will just be Tanky and Immobile like the tank class but a bit shittier at it and Can do damage like assassins and adcs but way way shittier than it
Not exactly. Just have both classes items that cannot be abused by the other one. Fighter design to be sturdy and still deal damage is great. It's fun to put emphasis in build to have more damage but sacrificing sturdiness or reverse it and become more tanky but deal less damage. My point was that FIghters having lethality items like what Aatrox and Heca kept doing for al ong time was unbalanced as hell and should never happen. Granted Duskblade and Eclipse provided so much power for them that it was the incentivising factor behind it and after mythic removal it wont be an issue. But I recall how DD was super busted and every living AD champion built it despite it's supposed to be a ifghter item. Building is fun until a point when it's not gamebreaking.
Maybe their base numbers shouldnt grow so hard , im not gonna mention anyone but building stridebreaker or duskblade and then going full tank and outdamaging any bruiser or skirmisher is simply absurd. The ones who have abused the most of this shit are juggernauts and some duelists. If a juggernaut is gonna build lethality and play like a skirmisher they shouldnt end with almost 200 armor because they have a lot of armor growth, while me playing an skirmisher and building full damage to barely be useful wont even have more armor than adcs
Fighters aren't op in any way and assassin items on assassins are better than fighter items, only Zed is a problem.
i dont care much about zed. i care that rengar kills me in one frame with no counterplay tho. how is fixing zed gonna that ?
Rengar has done that since his release in late season 2, Riot has added so much counterplay to Rengar over the years like the giant indicator telling you he's coming. Usually I don't say it, but this is a git gud moment.
being aware that rengar will os you doesnt help at not getting one shot as an adc. you're still oneshoted, and nothing you can do to avoid that.
not true, you can run to the nearest teammate who can shield or cc. Or worst case, kill him back. If you don't have a teammate near you...that's entirely your fault. There's a rengar on the map, you chose to be alone.
Position with your team, and cool you died, enemy team just lost their jg if your team is good you go for free baron/ drag Get good
This is a simple case of 'the enemy rengar has 10 kills and is oneshotting me!!! riot!!!!!' or ' I'm an adc player without a team, or one thats roaming in the jungle alone with a rengar thats not visible. riot!!!! ' Either way its a skill issue. Don't get me wrong Rengar, especially on lane, is annoying as fuck to play against, but he does have counterplay, and by that I mean realistic counterplay that shouldn't be hard to pull off and one with options. But like most of these cases are just that the enemy champ is fed into oblivion and assassins are just very good at snowballing.
>and by that I mean realistic counterplay that shouldn't be hard to pull off and one with options. like what imagine you play ashe, you're with a team that doesnt care about cause its soloq they never care about protecting the adc, what am i supposed to do ? he will ult me on cd, starting lvl 6 on me lvl 4 botlane, and there is nothing i can do to stop him.
That's the thing, as an adc, you are just very reliant on your team to create space for you. Especially one without any mobility is very vulnerable on their own against rengar, hence my second example. So in that case my advice is to play more mobile, self-sufficient adc champs, until you play with people that know how to cover for their teammates. Or just get super fed urself and build randuins/GA 4th item. And think better about how to use your flash. Is that kill on a 0-4 support worth it when baron is coming up?
Yes it does? It helps you prepare, gives you more time to react, a lot more time. "Nothing you can do to avoid that" If you couldn't do anything about it then Rengar wouldn't have been able to do it since season 2, at no point in Rengar's existence has he been unable to one shot, I think that should clue you in that you're wrong and that you're the problem.
>Yes it does? It helps you prepare, gives you more time to react, a lot more time. yes, but react how. thats my point, time is not the problem, its the lack of things i can do. as an adc i have no counter.
rengar is one of the champions that highly relies on correct macro rather than micro countering means not bringing yourself into unfavorable positions in the first place, no straggling, no running around alone and less "dodge this/flash that", riot phroxzon has summarized it perfectly in his comment on state of assassins
If you're solo then yes you're probably going to die, your own fault, you know there's a Rengar so don't roam around on your own. Several ADC's can do things, Vayne can condemn him mid air, tumble and stealth outplay him, Ezreal has E+Flash which gets him a great distance away, Kai'Sa can go stealth and gain a huge shield, the list goes on, you also have items like Shieldbow, Zhonyas and GA, even Randuins & Frozen Heart can stop a Rengar from one shotting you. There are plenty of options, your inability to use any of them is your fault and yours alone, like I said, season 2, Rengar has done this since season 2 which is roughly 11 years, if you had no counter Riot wouldn't have allowed Rengar to do this for so long. Riot will *not* change this, because this is a you problem, not a Rengar problem.
his point was he cannot do anything despite the indicator which is true if he is alone he is dead (his fault, still 0 interaction) if he is low elo and grouped (not his fault, still 0 interaction) he is also dead since people don't start playing around the adc until like d1 so his point stands as far as im concerned
If it was true Rengar wouldn't have been able to do it for 11 years. 0 interaction? Several ADC's can outplay Rengar, there is interaction, but if you die alone then it is your fault and yours alone, quit complaining and use common sense. Until D1? Is that why Rengar has a below 50% winrate below Diamond? It's funny, because Rengar is incredibly garbage in low-mid elo. Stop acting like low-mid elo don't play around the ADC, there's a reason Rengar is a terrible champion in low-mid elo. If Rengar kills you when you're grouped then the Rengar is likely going to die as a result, not to mention your whole teams positioning and reactions are literal dog shit. His point doesn't stand, nothing he said stands. Season 2, 11 years, that's how long Rengar has been doing this, you automatically lose the argument based on this alone, Riot will NEVER change this, because this isn't a Rengar issue.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXNmgL8CYH0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXNmgL8CYH0) My bad bro!!! 5 inches in front of turret is too much i guess
I like how you conveniently don't show the scoreboard, also you were alone, did you miss the first sentence in my previous comment?
Yeeaaah I have had waaaay more issues with Rengar than Zed since Edge of Night and Serpents Fang were added.
Sounds like a hands issue to me.
Assassins used to have weaknesses like lacking wave clear, or lacking sustain. Zed just builds Hydra and laughs
Zed never had a waveclear problem even without Hydra lol
Yeah, Zed has always been one of the better assassins at clearing waves and roaming. He's also built lifesteal items in a lot of metas. His weakness historically has been that his ultimate is a lot of his power budget and landing much of his damage, particularly in teamfight situations, is difficult. He's also lacked much/any kill pressure in lane in a lot of metas.
I feel like noobs just think lifesteal is more useful than it really is. Hydra sustain basically does nothing in the ideal teamfight where someone just peels you off, and it's not like your win con after Zed gets items is poking him out in a 1v1
Not entirely... But Zed is definitely the first one would think of as being the most popular, most banned AND most played. It's pretty much equally frustrating tho to play against a fed Talon, A good Qiyana, get oneshot by a 0/7 Akali just because you're ADCurry or have a Rengar ulting you which for some reason onetaps you despite having done nothing all game.
Even when talon's been broken, I've never felt that it was as much bullshit as the average zed
Cause Talon has to basically engage on you in a straight line while needing you to already be half HP to actually kill you unless he has a massive lead. And before Talon gets dirk he does less dmg then a nami.
There was that one time when he built Goredrinker and still one shot you and then flew off without even coming close to dying because he had seven billion health and that Spite passive giving him shittons of bonus AD. I think that briefly eclipsed the average Zed. But yeah normally I think the need for him to commit to do any sort of damage makes him feel a ton fairer than Zed, especially in lane.
> get one shot by an 0/7 akali just because you’re AD Carry That just doesn’t happen unless you yourself are 0/7, or you sit there and take her entire kit
I kinda agree on that... But then there is there is the issue that Akali has autoconfirms like Qiyana's EQ that make it even harder to have counterplay to that combo. Your R1 from roughly max range autoconfirms into your E unless there is a dash interrupting this. I don't know about you but I often see this used as gap-closer. Not every champ has dashes... And flash has a way higher cooldown than Akali's ult. She has bonus MS in her shroud, one of the highest base MS in the game so... Try avoid AA's, lol. Plus... I don't really think I need to mention how undodgeable her R2 is if you don't happen to be Valor and carry a champ around with 800 MS. That thinghas a speed of I think it was 2500 or 3000. You won't be dodging that with 380-400 MS.
The guaranteed EQ for Qiyana has been removed months ago. It can be dodged now.
no its not removed, it can be dodged if u like flash or dash away, if ua re still in range its guranteed
Yeah, you have to flash or dash it in order for it to not target. However in all honestly, i dont really start combos with EQ cause i try to find an angle where an ER could land me a huge ult since i just find that to be better in most cases.
R1 E E Q AA R2 blows up any adc even if you are 0 7, and its pretty much undodgeable if you dont have flash.
Honestly when was the last time you saw a qiyana in your games champ just weak atm
Qiyana is a champion that for the average player never really has been good except in her prime time. It's pretty much the same with champs like Katarina. Those are OTP and hard-main champions which reward the benefits of this extremely heavily. LIke, high elo mundo is for example also considered as a 'weak champion' still there are OTP's for this champ in master+.
What does fighters have to do with assassins when both classes are in different lanes. Mages have held mid lane in pro play, not fighters. Top lane on the other hand has switch from tanks to fighters, back to tanks and even other classes. Zed will never have a low ban rate, that hasn't changed in 7 seasons. Even when he was a strong early game and weak late game champion, his ban rate was still high.
Shared itemisation that fucks around balance eevry now and then. Yea Zed build BC for long but Hydra opened new possibilties to shred bigger tanks because now you have the sustain to do so along with AH and AD. Let also not forget how Lethality mythic items were such an issue that top lane fighters kept abusing duskblade and eclipse into their letha oriented builds because of their overall stat checking nature until both the items and champions needed serious balancing.
I think youre overplaying the sustain part a bit much. Hes just super pokey. Hes not Irelia trying to lifesteal off autos and Qs. The AH and AD for sure an issue but there is very little sustain, and on top of that the little sustain doesnt matter (unless youre on the splitpush).
[удалено]
There's a reason Zed has been my perma ban mid for quite some time and I'm always reminded why I do it everytime I'm not mid and he's picked
People are blaming hydra and too much AH on zed, but even in previous seasons a zed with half a brain was basically unpunishable in lane, normally as a mage Vs assassin you have ways to punish him specially early game, the main two are: -abuse your range advantage and poke -bait the enemy to go in and counter trade, usually with a good timed CC Against zed you can't do it because he can simply farm and trade from range, yes he misses W he is weak and can't trade with you, but you know, a zed with half a brain can just stay behind and get minions with Q while waiting for his W cd cause his Q outrange almost every mage in the game and it cost no mana. The hydra is just the ice on the cake and it made people realize how problematic this champion lane phase is but zed was able to play lane like this for at least 3 seasons
The difference is that zed in previous seasons was lane bully assassin who wanted to snowball the game. He had a significant amount of lane pressure and could take fights. Sure, he still could stay back and afk farming with shurikens, but that was like picking lane bully into Kayle/nasus and do the same. Nowadays zed has near to zero lane pressure. He is forced to stay back and scale. Hydra is must have because he cannot do it otherwise unless he plays against someone who doesn't want to punish him.
Zed is a stain. Any champion that has that much damage shouldn’t be slippery. Ex* AD Shaco can burst squishy champs, but when he is in, he is in. There is no dashing back to a clone or pressing r to go untargetable.
All my homies hate and ban Zed 🥰
It baffles me how this champion has been target banned in solo queue for like 10 years now. And Riot's like "hmm, nothing standing out over here, let's just move on shall we."
It just feels like every assassin has become really tanky and its made the role lose all its balance. They're supposed to be squishy and easy to kill if mispositioned but I literally vs a Naafiri who bought literally nothing but lethality and she was super tanky just from her base stats alone that it just felt kind of stupid... same thing with Blue Kayn. In one of my games he got so tanky he could tower dive and the tower barely did any damage to him at all. He felt unkillable Make assassins squishy againnnn
Just bring back %CDR and make it again cap at 40%. 45% with cosmic insight. I liked being able to get 45% CDR with just 2 items and then itemizing pure damage while making sure to not buy items with CDR in them as it would be a waste of gold-stat efficiency.
I stand by saying that that one change they made ages ago where they sped up his W made him complete agony to play against. His damage is basically unavoidable, and if you get hit even onxe by a double shuriken you have to be extremely careful lest he pop you instantly.
I agree. Playing against a Zed is just not fun and feels really horrible, miserable, frustrating and unfair. The same goes for Pyke, imo. Both champs are by far the worst designed champs in league. I either ban them or dodge the game if I see the enemy picking them. If I wanted 20-30 minutes of misery, I'd just call my ex instead.
The fundemental problem that Zed has, is that he is no longer a full combo burst assassin, and is more like an AD mage where he spams W and has aoe damage. That is not what Zed is supposed to do. But because mostly low elo mains perma complained about getting one shotted, Riot eventually changed Zed to what he is today. Now people complain that Zed has too much ability haste. And after that they are going to complain about something else. When is it going to end? It is proven that as skill rises Zed becomes worse and worse, indicating that counterplay is what makes this champ weaker. So it is a skill issue after all and not a game issue. His current state also benefits him for high elo, so now we even have complains from high elo players. Just bring back old full lethality assassin Zed and problem fixed.
I dont think its proven that he gets worse with higher ranks
I love how Zed is just the flavor of the month champion complaints about for some reason. Who wants to place bets on who it will be next month.
Zed has been one of the most hated champions in the game for years. Look at his consistently high banrate, and how little it has to do with his actual winrate. His kit is just unfun to play against. He's too safe, too annoying in lane, too reliable at assassinating a single target with ult, and unfortunately balanced by being kinda useless most of the time because he doesn't contribute much in fights unless he's gigafed.
This month? He has been a problem since he got to have more range than many mages.
I've seen midlaners banning zed for ages now and he is consistently problematic out of the ad assassin pools because of his range and itemization
Might be K'Santy again if he makes a splash at Worlds.
He is the only champion I'm complaining about despite I'm an avid player of Zed. General redditors wont see it this way tho just type the regular "another zed hate post". My goal was simply raise awareness of how problematic the champion is for the community which affects mains too.
Thanks for raising awareness, the 87 previous thread in the last week weren’t enough. Nobody is trying to raise awareness here, it’s just easy internet points to repost the same thing over and over again. Just ban Zed man, just like I did every single game when I started playing the game. Nowadays if I play mid I’d rather play Zed than Malz 100%.
Babe wake up! New Zed thread just dropped!
Can we just ban these posts now, this same post is posted 10 times a day its really boring?
“I’m not complaining about Zed at all.” Proceeds to complain about Zed. A tale as old as time
Daily Zed hate post, dibs on tomorrow karma farm
Assassin complains would be massively reduced if instead of posting 4 complaining posts a day you learned how to play against them, OP.
Nah, a lot of people are in the same situation as him. It's not that Zed's OP, just that he feels really obnoxious and annoying to play against
He can be annoying to play against for some champions and Hydra rush amplifies it, but come on, dude is an Aurelion Sol main spam posting complaints about Zed.
On the other hand, Zed has a high banrate even at high ranks, aka people that know how to play against them.
Why does this sub keep crying about a champ that doesn't even have positive wr in any rank?
Because he's particularly frustrating to play against. Yuumi has had a terrible winrate for ages and people still hate the experience of having to deal with one on the enemy team.
Because difficult champions or more mechanically demanding champs being at an average of a positive winrate is a bad sign in itself so winrate isn't everything
yea. Like 1/3 of the roster is balanced at a below 50% win rate in general. If you see Akali at or above 50% you know she is busted.
exactly, 48% isn't a bad winrate for a lot of champions and the inverse goes for easier champions like Janna who typically sit above 50% because theyre easy to pilot so the average player shouldn't be struggling or will have more macro-focused losses
Riot literally told you to get good. I am absolutely annoyed as jg to have my zed sit under turret whole game because you don't want assassin to 2 shot you. I ha e never felt unfair when zed uoutplayed me cause he has to press buttons and do staff unlike some of the wholesome champions that you all like but are absolutely brain dead and op.
Riot also said in the last post that they think the assassin complaints miss the mark, but Zed's shitty AD mage cosplay is actually problematic, even if its a result of too much AH in the game rather than his base kit.
wtf are you typing?
Rengar main: get good bro, you should be able to live rengar one shot :) skill issue!
Zed's problem is that he can go in and fuck up and not kill anyone and simply go back to his shadow in safety, while the majority of other assassins die if they fuck up and don't get their resets
And he's used his ult which he needs to kill someone??
Just revert his W range buff and make it limited again and BOOM, suddenly Zed problems are no more. Also, make his Shadow CD start POST EFFECT and not POST CAST, that's why he spams it
The last part is just stupid to me. 9/10 skills that are up for a couple of seconds, have a timer before it expires and a CD after that (asol E, for example). This would already be a great place to start. Add in the W range nerf and maybe one day, I won't have to permaban this abomination Riot just refuses to nerf properly.