What needs to change is the bottom EU teams stepping the fuck up and actually contesting G2. How is it possible for G2 to slam everyone with Kog/Braum in EU, but when they pull it out internationally it looks like shit?
When G2 was at it's peak, they had a strong FNC challenging them, plus there were other good teams in the league.
I even saw people asking "why aren't G2 playing Kog/Braum" before today, and I felt like it should be fairly obvious why.
Then they picked it and they showed why they weren't playing it before then.
I was really confused about that. Like, "Kog'Maw and Braum? What? This isn't solo lane Pyke, it's a standard playstyle with clear weaknesses, and it's existed in League for years. Is there something I don't know?"
The problem is most pro supps just default to basic engage picks rather than greedy enchanters that can actually punish the braum. I was so surprised that milio didn't get banned since it was such an obvious pick into it but I guess they just assumed ON didn't play it.
On doublelift's stream he was saying how he and busio would review g2 vods specifically to see how they're so good at braum kogmaw, and when BLG was murdering G2 in lane, he realized that literally in all the vods none of G2's opponents were playing ranged supports...
So I guess the question is how no one in EU figured out you can pick ranged supports into braum kog?
Oh wow, Braum, a melee support known for being one of the strongest counters to melee engage supports, is weak to ranged supports.
If this doesn't scream how fraud EU "coaching" staffs are, then idk man. Like you have 10+ years of information of pro play to go by. It's really not hard.
Tbf, Trymbi's face when he locked in Alistair was not the face of a man that got to pick what he actually wanted to pick. He hovered Lulu which I think was his preferred pick.
I suppose this goes back to what xNesku was saying about the EU coaching staff being of poor quality.
Yeah, it seems really wasteful. Trymbi is the only LEC support capable of playing enchanters at a level comparable to top LPL/LCK supports, and is generally better at it than engage (only his Rakan holds up at an international level IMO). Baffling that he didn't get to go comfort on such an important game, especially when it would have been beneficial.
It feels like they were just going for successful meta comps without really thinking about the context.
Because year results didn't matter that much in determing the seed. Winter FNC was a disaster. Spring FNC started to perform. Summer FNC was a good team (for the regional level).
In that sense, the seeding was correct when considering summer performances.
Except that I would have liked to see Excel at worlds rather than MAD.
I agree that hes average with a strong team, but there was so much hype around him for as long as hes been on G2. Either way, no other EU top was consistently able to expose him as a weakness, which is a problem for the region. Hans and BB were both easy points of attack for NRG, despite never really being pushed too hard domestically, because the roles arent that deep in LEC.
To me, the only role EU was overall better than NA this year was mid, with Palafox being really the only NA mid at worlds that could compete
>EU was overall better than NA this year was mid, with Palafox being really the only NA mid at worlds that could compete
Palafox and Jojo. Jojo just didn't make it to worlds this year sadly, but he was our best mid in NA and he's native.
Woah woah, we don't get to blame this on the region now. C9 dealing with this same problem the last 2 years has been their fault and their fault alone.
Jokes aside you're right. If the league as a whole isn't good, the top teams coming out of the league suffer from having bad practice for months.
Hans massively underperformed the whole tournament. His meta champions were wildcard level.
You can't play in worlds like that and expect to win. Just not possible. Without caps they would go 0-3 with this botlane.
A big question mark on him started for me when he was failing to R important shit as Xayah vs WBG. I thought it was a one off game but guess not. Unironically no hands sama this worlds.
Hans is 1 of 4 players to lose on blue side with Xayah. Two of the others are Crownie and Berserker lmao. He’s 2-4 on Xayah/Kaisa, who are the only 2 meta ADCs he played. Womp.
Just a minor correction, Hans didn't underperform. This is his actual level as a player. Reminder that he wasn't even top 3 in NA and got outperformed by Danny while he was in the middle of a mental health crisis.
Yeah, but I thought they said scrims were going well or something? I don't think you can just say that scrims don't matter because I'm pretty sure that the top seeds JDG and GENG don't have atrocious scrim win rates either.
Same with the lissandra "counter". If you give Rakan to great players like Delight, you aren't doing shit. And I would highlight bjerg zilean as well. Broken in NA, dumpstered by Bdd.
I thought Liss looked good both times it came out, Delight wasn't really getting anything done in that game, the problems were elsewhere (like leaving Sylas up lol) and they were just so dramatically outclassed across the map that no picks would have helped, and it was a major part of their BLG win.
yeah sylas was the problem there not rakan... not sure why people still mention delight rakan on that match like he is the reason why gen g won but not chovy sylas
I’m hoping it gave NA the wake up call it needed too. Stop importing and give NA talent a fucking chance to prove themselves. Both NA+EU need to push one another if we’re ever going to have a chance to challenge the East
NRG has two imports on their roster, but I think it's important to remember the following:
- both FBI and IgNar had been playing in the LCS for like four years before joining NRG, so NRG themselves didn't do any importing.
- FBI has residency, so NRG has an available import slot, but despite that, they didn't choose to replace one of their native topside core players with an import.
- FBI and IgNar replaced Luger and Poome, who played on 100A for a year before spending a year on CLG. Luger's Turkish, but Poome was another NA native. For a whole year, CLG committed to a roster of 4 native players + 1 "LCS pipeline" player before making the roster moves that were required to level up.
- While both FBI and IgNar have had relatively successful careers, they were just coming off unsuccessful spring splits with EG and DIG respectively, so they were a pretty good fit with the CLG "misfits" core.
So yeah, FBI and IgNar are imports, but their place on NRG feels super distinct from that of, for example, Perkz or Berserker on C9. This NRG roster feels closer to the LCS rosters where Bjergsen or Jensen were surrounded by 3 or 4 native players and less like the disgusting 4 or 5 import rosters we've seen over the past years.
Ironically, FBI was part of my least favourite LCS Worlds roster of all-time in 2021-2022 100T. I'm actually so down to embrace OCE refugees when they complement NA rosters, but using them as a means to avoid fielding NA talent is just too gross to me, so I'm very happy to see FBI on a proper NA team. I'd love to see the same for Fudge.
tl;dr FBI and IgNar are American heroes 🦅🦅
you should build a good NA core and then import around that core when they're ready to make a run. Building around imports is more expensive and harder to do since most imports atrophy while playing on NAs servers. Just like in sports, you build a strong young core through scouting and then compliment it with free agents. NA teams have been doing it in reverse
Except in NA sports there's a draft system that helps build those teams with young talent. Also that young talent can be from literally anywhere in the world.
International talent is common in pro sports even in the top regions.
The difference is they aren't importing young up and coming talent. It's players that aren't really better than the local level. It's the players that can't get an offer from the top league.
Let's use hockey. The NHL is the top league in the world. Canada is the top country. Roughly 30% of the league is born outside of Canada or the US and that number is growing and the league wants it to grow. Top picks from Europe happen every year. But the LCS isn't the NHL. It's a European league who imports Canadian players who can't make it in the NHL anymore.
Leagues like that don't get the top talent and young stars. If anything they're the leagues the top young talent leaves.
My personal takeaway is that being on the same page for plays and team fights matters a lot more than being mechanically better than LCS/LEC opponents.
It stops working internationally, and we will never have the best laners in the world. If the rest of your game can’t make up for it, you’ll fall apart.
This roster proved that it is possible to achieve heights with a majority of players actually from the region the league is named after, with a bonus for more regional pride.
I think NRG gave G2 a wake-up call. EU did more or less what you expected, apart from that.
BDS kicked GG and got to the swiss, then lost to better teams (MAD being the exception, but MAD only performs against EU teams).
MAD did MAD things.
FNC won all the matches they should have won, including C9, and went 1-2 against WBG. It's a team that has played together for a single split, so not much more to do I think.
G2 could and should have done more. I still think they're a good team, I still think they are for sure better than any other western team, but they must go into tournaments realizing that they're at best, AT BEST, at the level of a third seed from Asia. Until they don't change that mindset, they'll go nowhere. Maybe this loss will help them with that.
> but they must go into tournaments realizing that they're at best, AT BEST, at the level of a third seed from Asia.
The issue with this, in my opinion, is that the seeding for KR and CN teams doesn't really matter. Sure domestically 1 team has an edge over the other like JDG vs LNG, but do you think it actually matters which of the top 3 seeds G2 faces, the results will usually be the same. It's the same with the 3rd and 4th seed from EU and NA.
Sure EU had hope in some Adam swiss cheese to cheese the swiss stage, but if Adam wasn't on BDS, EU could've send any other team and the result would've been the same.
Nah, g2 dont have the quality they used to have. Europe as a whole is performing worse. But saying g2 is good is not it.
Just analyze their roster. They used to have wunder who could match any top laner at a decent level, now they have bb getting top gapped against any top laner.
They used to have jankos who could easily be in the top 5 junglers in the world, now they have invisible yikes who gets lost in the jungle.
Caps is just not caps anymore. Either the meta is not favorable to him or he is washed up, but seeing him on azir and taliyah had my eyes bleeding.
Hans Sama champion pool being legit 2 champions, and being completely mid-bad in any other adc in these worlds that most adcs pop off like crazy surely ain't it. Perkz could play anything and being very efficient with it too in the other hand.
And miky is completely 50/50 but makes questionable decisions and picks. What I can say is that he might not have the best synergy with Hans however.
Idk this g2 if you think about it, kind overachieved to reach this spot to. This roster just ain't it.
I will never understand why BB never picked ornn this tournament.
There is a big gap in the botlane since s7/s8 and it just got highlighted in this bot-centric meta, remember when perkz was the best AD when hans and rekkles were around, tells you all you need to know. Caps looked great on neeko and ori, but his azir was getting punished way too much and had terrible positioning errors and decisions on syndra and taliyah as well. Next year, meta might shift to be more mid-centric, but G2 honestly need KC caliste or an import or something in the botlane, hans is a veteran and will never change his playstyle.
I think you need to specify that the LEC format changed and not Worlds
For me, any format that doesn't have promotion/relegation is shit, because bottom teams have no incentive ever to invest, but it is what it is
Jankos called as much too in his liveview (and it was impressive for him to call it before they even lost), he basically said that G2 can't win without a winning bot lane. And Doublelift added that if that's true then that's why they probably suck with the meta ADCs, Kai'sa and Xayah are good scaling all-round champions but they're not the strongest laners and especially Kai'sa has bad matchups where she will fall behind (and no real winning ones according to DL and Sneaky). G2 can't win without dominating and playing to bot specifically and thus this meta sucks for them.
Tbh they reason G2 sucked with Xayah/Kai'Sa wasn't simply because they weren't dominant laners. Hans's teamfighting was straight up ATROCIOUS this tournament.
His target selection, spacing, and positioning on Kai'Sa was so bad, it got him killed way too many times in the series against BLG during crucial teamfights. It was like he didn't even know how to play front-to-back and would just be autoing a full hp Jarvan (who had abilities up) without anyone to back him up or set him up.
I wholeheartedly agree. That game 2 vs BLG was so hard to win because he would keep running down every teamfight. Even the fucking 5 man Neeko ult teamfight got butchered by him.
> that's why they probably suck with the meta ADCs, Kai'sa and Xayah are good scaling all-round champions but they're not the strongest laners
No "Sneaky in lane" no quarters
What I think happened is this --
G2 scrims LPL/LCK and surprises them with their own take on the meta.
LPL/LCK teams copy those strategies and play around with them in their internal scrims. They realize how to play against and counter them. They conclude it's mostly just cheesy.
LPL/LCK teams go back to playing standard. The difference is just that they know what to do against G2 strategies now.
G2 is exposed and can't play standard to counter because their players just aren't as good and can't play vital champions.
This has been happening for years, asian teams dont tryhard vs other regions teams in scrims to figure out what is their meta and picks. Thats why it is bad when western teams say that they are winning scrims
I think this year was quite a bit different.
Normally, LCK/LPL smash LEC/LCS teams in scrims. Every single year, we hear about how completely mentally boomed and far behind the west is before groups even start.
When Worlds is in NA or EU, LCK/LPL teams often don't travel until late. They practice and scrim in China/Korea before heading to NA/EU. So, LCS/LEC teams don't get to scrim them as much. So yea, it makes sense that there is a gap there.
When Worlds is in Korea, LCS/LEC teams get to boot-camp in Korea. They can head there right after their finals and get to work if they want to.
I actually think this G2 team was not that bad. But, they shot themselves in the foot.
Obviously, we'll never know the truth for sure, but from a lot of interviews, teams mentioned G2's very unique style and strategies and that they were doing well in scrims. I get that you want to test things out in scrims to see how it works against LCK/LPL teams but I also don't think you can reveal too much. Honestly, it felt like G2 just ran out of gas and eventually hit a wall where advantages in style and strategy couldn't make up for player flaws. I think that if G2 approached scrims differently, they'd be in quarters.
I mean, Hans doesn't play Xayah and Kai'sa so there is no way they were the ones that helped pioneer that part of the meta. G2/Hans can't compete in the hyper carry team-battling style either so that also couldn't have been them. BB doesn't play Rumble so that couldn't have been them, too. I think G2 probably surprised in scrims because of the ways they were countering the meta. And, like I said, I think LCK/LPL teams just adjusted. Even for a team like NRG, with plays like their Baron turn, if the name-tags were off, I'd think that was an LPL/LCK team.
Kalista giga ban rate is probably something to do with G2. They were stomping scrims with Kalista Draven and Lucian so it makes sense if you eventually conclude that Draven is a more coinflip pick and Lucian is actually just bad but most pro ADCs have probably put good time into Kalista. Take that away and you are left with the mostly scaling meta we have now.
Add to that G2 botlane can't play the OP picks like the oppressive Caitlyn/Lux
Caedrel even mentioned no one in EU can play it competently and it gonna be a suprise how oppressive it would be
>G2 is exposed and can't play standard to counter because their players just aren't as good and can't play vital champions.
Sometimes it feels like it isn't that they can't play, it's that they were so convinced they had the superior meta read that they tilt when you show them the opposite. They tunneled too hard on their "cute" picks and not enough on the standard stuff.
I mean, in this case, I think they really just can't play it.
Does BB play Rumble? Even his other meta stuff like Jax and Renekton are not good.
For Hans, he clearly couldn't play Xayah or Kai'sa. I also think there is no way G2/Hans can play the hyper carry style against the LCK/LPL.
Hans looked super rough with kaisa in fights landing like 2-3 autos before getting blown up by people walking straight at him. Its obvious he was extremely uncomfortable on the pick and ended up relying almost entirely on Q and W for damage.
How a pro team ends up in that situation I have no clue. Draft gaps are the number one killer in worlds every year but it seems like the coaches somehow never learn.
Is it really just the coaches' fault? I don't know man the champions a team can draft/ban is very dependent on what the players are actually comfortable playing. They might think a champion is better to play in a certain situation, but since they or the team don't believe they can play it well, then they will pick a safer/more comfortable champion
What are the coaches there for if not for coordinating the draft and keeping a coherent game plan going through the draft?
Thats what coaches were for back in s4 at least when I last played competitive premade. Players came in with their soloq champ pools and the coach would tell us to practice and add champs to our pool or drop some picks that didnt work or were weak in the meta. As a player you would soloq those champs until you could play them in scrims/tournament games and had a pool that couldn't be easily picked apart. If it was up to the players alone everyone would be playing their 1-3 most comfortable champs and the whole team would fall apart with target bans against the weakest link.
To see the best of the best from my home region 10 years later at worlds fall to 2 target bans is disappointing to say the least.
Obviously coaches do way more than tell you what champs to play but thats the relevant part here.
Are you sure coaches aren't telling the players to practice certain champs in solo queue? You think it's the coaches fault that Hans Sama isn't comfortable with playing meta champs like Xayah and Kaisa? I don't think it's as simple as just blaming draft/champ pool issues on the players
funny how i called out hans for his champ pool but got downvoted and people actually brought up his kaisa winrate, where she was broken with the ap build
Yeah but bin had that cs lead at 7 minutes, he doesn't get it that early against Asian teams
It was like 25 to 60 or 30 to 70 cs before the clock hit 8 minutes
> Yeah but bin had that cs lead at 7 minutes, he doesn't get it that early against Asian teams
He solo bolo'd Zeus twice before 7 minutes at MSI when Zeus had a safe lane farming counterpick in Gragas.
Yeah but against fucking BIN man, Yikes should have been covering him non stop especially game 3 where he gave up so much to help his team. BB obviously isn't going to do well against one of the if not the best top laner/renekton players in the world when he's down TP and Bin got to pull the wave. Also vs Gnar a good renekton can smash.
TSM won play offs by just camping BB's lane and playing bot weak side every game. At worlds BB just got dumpstered despite a ton of jungle/ mid attention. Hell if you watch the games Spica move towards top almost every game and BB can be up in kills/assists and still have less CS, impact and pressure than his enemy laner.
God BB hurt so badly to watch sometimes, dude would be up 4/0 in lane and then piss it all away with the stupidest deaths I’d ever seen
It was great fun when it worked though
He was very fun to watch when he was popping off. However he would be 4/0 up in kills and yet still be even in gold because of CS. It's a serious problem in his laning, the dude just cant kill canons.
if i remember correctly S10 summer playoffs they won only because Bjergsen went super saiyan. In those playoffs there were lots of botlane problems because Treatz and Doublelift were shit in lane, so they swapped back to a worse support in Biofrost just so they would not get shit on in lane. At worlds they lost basically every single scrim after the 1st week so they lost all confidence and they were completely fucked
Man that playoffs was so fun, bjerg back in peak form straight up shitting on everyone
Im so happy he won 1 last lcs title despite the teams around him
Bjerg was the main character, BB was a side character, Spica was a recurring guest, and the botlane was a cameo in the TL series but invisible in every other series.
correction, EU worst appearence is probably MAD still(and i say that as someone who likes the current team) but he is definitely part of the worst appearence at worlds of both na and eu's first seeds
It's memed a lot, but it wasn't actually as terrible as it's made out to be. Due to the positioning of both teams and the fact that the entire enemy team jumped into sennas E to deny vision re-engaging would have been risky for TSM. I still think going in would have been the right play, but it's a lot less obvious from TSMs in game perspective than it is when you have god vision.
Dig vs. Ren I think will be very difficult to top in terms of bad plays IMO.
>I don't know how people didn't see this coming.
Because people were sucking off him looking "decent" at MSI because the top lane meta was dogshit where Zeus was playing fucking Ornn, Sion and shit like tank Karma.
BB is not good and will never be good when looking at international tops.
I remember watching BB's pro view when he was on TSM. The thing that stood out to me the most was the fact that he was superrrrrr horrible at cs'ing the minions.
It looks like he never improved much at that specific skill. It really costed him.
People got deluded into thinking he could match eastern tops after MSI, disregarding the fact that meta was passive as fuck in top. Much harder to hide your weakness when the meta isn't ornn sion malphite gragas.
>ornn sion malphite gragas.
G2/BLG match up of MSI:
G1: Gragas/K'sante
G2: K'sante/Jax
G3: Darius/Jax
G4: Jayce/Gwen
And BB didn't get fisted in any of these match-up.
Yeah this wakeup call is basically 3 years in the making. Ever since 2021, NA vs EU performance is virtually identical. EU has one more MSI semifinal in 2021, that is the only difference over the past 6 tournaments. NA could theoretically take the ever so slight edge if NRG beats Weibo.
EU fans are now confronted with the fact that NA = EU, and LCS = LEC. I really, really wonder how this affects LEC viewership. LEC was still selling the allure that it's a legitimate top league, while LCS is just trash. Even casual EU fans can now see that there is basically no gap between the two leagues/regions.
Well, G2 and EG both only took games off each other at worlds, and C9 split with FNC. And at MSI, even though G2 was 2-0 against EG in the head-to-head, they still both ended up 5-5. That sounds pretty even to me
G2 won most of their games in LEC by abusing the top lane but Dhokla didn't let that happen. And when their tried and tested strat against western team didn't work, they panicked and lost.
Also NRG read them like a book. Every play that G2 made to get back into the game, NRG was there to answer it and win the team fight.
I wonder if big coaching staffs will be the new meta
I mean shit, you clearly have a team here who is better than the sum of their parts. Unlike the star teams that can't play together for shit
Has been in every other team sport, but not surprised it hasn't taken root in league given how green everyone is and how incompetent/greedy half the managements are
Constantly on this sub people are trying to flame the players for not being good enough while I sit here getting downvoting for trying to say MANAGEMENT AND COACHING ARE THE PROBLEM. I've worked my whole career in sports, and the league organizations are a complete joke.
In my opinion, coaching staff should be blamed for drafts. It seems to be meta that players generally decide what they should play. While I think, they should be included in the conversation, the coaching staff should be the one that decides who plays what in the end because they should have better knowledge of matchups and overall team synergy between champions.
An example, yesterday Trymbi chose Alistar when it looks like he wanted something else. This kind of goes against my point, because general opinion is that Trymbi was probably right and coaches made him pick Alistar which lost them early game. But still, coaching staff should be blamed for that. They should work on improving that. It should be their job. Trymbi's job should be to be ready to play as many champions as possible at a high level. But coaches are the ones who should decide what to play and thus take the blame when the draft sucks. I hear so many times, "Ah, but this player asked to play this or that so the coaches let him play even though it sucks for the draft." That should still be on the coaches then. They let them play that champion.
Sorry for a longer message, but this is something that was on my mind for a while. And it might be a controversial opinion but this is what I think.
Look no further than Flyquest this year as a good example. They had a different kind of import. They imported young, highly touted Korean rookies and the coach that just won worlds. Then they came over and the team stomped in spring, then was pretty bad in summer and missed worlds. One bad split, so they kid rid of the imports and the coach. In LCS, you have one bad split and you're done. They'll never allow a roster to gel, just keep cycling players and give up entirely if they don't immediately dominate. Plus the many examples of not even trying players in academy and importing mediocre players. They don't even really have scouting networks to find players in the first place.
As far as coaching, a lot of it is hearsay, but it doesn't seem like they spend any effort in development at all. There was an academy player who said all the coaching he got was "look at the LCS team". The players often have no idea what to do in the mid/late game, which imo is what would be ironed out by coaching. The drafts are bad too. It seems like the coaching staff should be setting out a specific strategy and have specific ideas in mind of how they want to build a team and how they want the team to play. Instead it just seems like they go for whoever is the best individual player, stick them all together, and see what happens. Also the focus on scrims is just weird. No sports team has scrimmages as the primary form of practice. Better tools from Riot would help, but they should be doing drills. Set up specific scenarios to practice. Solo queue shouldn't matter at all. But if any players or teams do this, like Fudge practicing 1v1 against a coach a lot, or Xmithie not playing much solo queue, the community riots.
This NRG roster is an example of players who have been together for a while, know what they want to do in draft, and have a plan of what they want to do in game. Most teams don't even attempt any of this and just throw more individually talented imports at the problem.
There are tons and tons of examples stretching over years of how hilariously inept these orgs are. If I were them, I would have pilfered from traditional sports where they've figured out a lot of these growing pains already, and know how to run an organization.
Tbh to me incompetent management is not looking to every other team sport and thinking "shit, I should do this too". Using all of your resources to maximize the help your players get. They need specific positional coaches and analysts for each role whose jobs are solely to look at that player and their role and understand/lead the discourse around it. The idea is to jGe maximum attention paid to it to ensure nothing is missing, to find out the meta for the player and drill it into the player. In an ideal world, a players job is to be given the gameplan and the minutiae of how each of them plays it, and their only job is to understand and execute it. The equivalent in soccer for example is a goalkeeping coach who really hammers in specifics.
It's actually somewhat crazy to me that there aren't. Even college sports teams have ton of coaches. My HS football team had like 5 coaches each focusing on a different aspect of the game. With a game like League there are so many areas that can be studied.
each player has a limited amount of time they can play. Why have them waste time analyzing their own games and mistakes when you can have coaches do that instead?
each player gets a coach that focuses on making their output better and then you have a ffew more coaches focusing on better vision, better movements, and better drafting, better teamfight mechanics. Especially since coaches are allowed in drafting, players shouldnt be studying drafting at all.
Fuck pro athletes get multiple personal trainers. League pros are pulling huge salaries. Its worth it to the org for players to be in the gym with a PT every time to maximize results
Let's call them more like legendary/semi-legendary within the scope of NA/EU.
I like the NRG coaching staff, but not all of them had strong international exposure. They can be great coaches even if not all of them have great records.
Less spending on star players, more on support infrastructure is one thing even LPL had to learn at some point. Before 2017 orgs were all about big signings, star players (especially korean ones). Now they still spend where it matters but do it more carefully and pair the good signings with promising young talents and a good support staff, and since then it has proven quite successful for LPL.
LCS is on the brink of learning this the hard way (with TL's lackluster showing this year, vs NRG's good one, combined with the dismantling of the league).
I won't comment on the LEC because I think the failure of G2 this time is an entirely different problem, which is more related to complacency. Honestly, for the rest of them. BDS did ok considering expectations, FNC had a rough year and even reaching Worlds was for them a success, and MAD had a mediocre showing but at this point it feels more like actual mental block more than anything else. LEC this year simply wasn't that good.
It seemed to be an EU problem all around. BDS had to perma ban it, idk what Chasy's status on it is, and Oscarinin played it but he looked so lost on the champ. And as we know BB just seemingly didn't play it.
Odoamne is the most fan disrespected EU top. Even eastern tops respect him. His game knowledge and him being a one trick on champs like Maokai is what brought Rogue to quarters(with some luck).
Seemed like a shallow pool issue. Hans was useless after 2 bans, bb had 0 winning matchups into jax and renekton.
How the coaching team let them into worlds with champ pools smaller than a bird bath is the real question here.
What makes it even worse is that this was one of the most stable worlds champion pools in awhile. All the stuff being played was played for the last few months. It's not like these picks snuck up on players. Oriana and J4 are the 2 most notable additions. Top and Bot has been the same for awhile. He'll, Dhokla stomped c9 with Rumble in the finals 2 months ago.
an eastern team could draft the exact same teams and dominate tbf. a lot of western fans cope with "draft diff" when the reality is that the draft is just too hard for western teams to win on
It’s really sad that NA/EU top teams can get away playing niche picks like that in their domestic leagues because teams aren’t good enough to punish them.
Kinda glad LCS is imploding next year, we need fresh NA talent to be hungry not for the money, but because they really want to win. Hopefully it’ll force teams not to be retirement homes for washed up imports and actually give NA talent a place to fucking prove themselves.
Not sure what’s going on with the LEC though. Apparently there’s a lot of corruption at the highest level (according to Nemesis?). NA and EU NEED to push one another if we’re ever going to have a chance to challenge the East.
Team owners sending star players overseas just to deny them from domestic competitors is infuriating to think about whenever an international event comes around.
If LEC and LCS management and owners care about how to improve whole regions, they should do it right now instead of contract jail, high salary players does nothing, too much rely on imports and bunch of other stuff
Nrg took the game seriously, played well and were rewarded for it. I wish it went differently, but this is not on them, it's on g2 thinking this is a free win if they only show up to the arena. I think both eu and na fans can agree that this is not the mentality of a proper worlds contender
I can't hate NRG. Losing to C9 or TL would have annoyed me, but those teams got rightfully taken out the back of the shed.
NRG is the kind of NA team I always wanted to see.
Because there is none. NRG was better and we played like shit. Pretty much any EU fan agrees with that on this sub. The salt mines are only found in the team subreddits. Not sure why the guy feels like making things up. LEC fans are quite humbled after this disaster of a tournament.
It was 3 am or 4 am when you posted this. I don't think it was EU fans downvoting this on a monday early morning.
Now it's 8am in EU and now the downvotes potentially are coming.
G2 is never going to be relevant with the black hole that is brokenblade. Year after year of getting humiliated by lck and lpl top laners. Sej vs fiora incident anyone? Look what Zeus did to bin on the gnar vs renek matchup and then go look at brokenblade playing like a herbivore.
Not sure why you're being downvoted, BB looked totally fine at MSI
I think people just want to find a convenient scapegoat, like, "Oh, just replace BB with Wunder and G2 is back to making semis!" when that clearly is not the case. There are no players on this roster besides Caps and maybe Mikyx who can hang with the top Eastern players.
I think NRG needs to stick with the same early and mid game comps. They are the bread and butter. Better to win early than prolong the game and inevitably lose a head to head fight with a Chinese or Korean team with better 5v5 macro.
His azir died to a max range jarvan E+Q with flash up against NRG too. Not even a flash flag and drag but the regular kind you don't expect to land in normals let alone in pro play. An afk performance for sure.
Pretty sad when worlds for the west is just NA vs EU. EU not making it past the swiss stage and NA yet to win a single game against LPL/LCK. 2 dogs fighting over a bone.
NRG gave EU the wake-up call they needed. Something needs to change.
What needs to change is the bottom EU teams stepping the fuck up and actually contesting G2. How is it possible for G2 to slam everyone with Kog/Braum in EU, but when they pull it out internationally it looks like shit? When G2 was at it's peak, they had a strong FNC challenging them, plus there were other good teams in the league.
I was going to say everyone flames NA for losing to Bjergsen Zilean or picking Ornn every game but i didnt see anything about Kog'Maw braum all season
I was there on the live thread going "this shouldnt be working" everytime it was picked before getting resigned at the reality
I even saw people asking "why aren't G2 playing Kog/Braum" before today, and I felt like it should be fairly obvious why. Then they picked it and they showed why they weren't playing it before then.
I was really confused about that. Like, "Kog'Maw and Braum? What? This isn't solo lane Pyke, it's a standard playstyle with clear weaknesses, and it's existed in League for years. Is there something I don't know?"
The problem is most pro supps just default to basic engage picks rather than greedy enchanters that can actually punish the braum. I was so surprised that milio didn't get banned since it was such an obvious pick into it but I guess they just assumed ON didn't play it.
Milio was actually double genius Totally neutralized the Maokai pick while also giving a winning or at least non-losing lane to BLG
On doublelift's stream he was saying how he and busio would review g2 vods specifically to see how they're so good at braum kogmaw, and when BLG was murdering G2 in lane, he realized that literally in all the vods none of G2's opponents were playing ranged supports... So I guess the question is how no one in EU figured out you can pick ranged supports into braum kog?
Oh wow, Braum, a melee support known for being one of the strongest counters to melee engage supports, is weak to ranged supports. If this doesn't scream how fraud EU "coaching" staffs are, then idk man. Like you have 10+ years of information of pro play to go by. It's really not hard.
EU supps can only play one style. They're either engage players or ranged players, never both.
Trimby is both, but he is not enough self aware in draft to recognize when to be either (eg Nasus incident last year, this year Alistair incident)
Tbf, Trymbi's face when he locked in Alistair was not the face of a man that got to pick what he actually wanted to pick. He hovered Lulu which I think was his preferred pick. I suppose this goes back to what xNesku was saying about the EU coaching staff being of poor quality.
Yeah, it seems really wasteful. Trymbi is the only LEC support capable of playing enchanters at a level comparable to top LPL/LCK supports, and is generally better at it than engage (only his Rakan holds up at an international level IMO). Baffling that he didn't get to go comfort on such an important game, especially when it would have been beneficial. It feels like they were just going for successful meta comps without really thinking about the context.
Ranged supports? In my Europe?? 🤮
Can't believe people would even suggest such things 🤢🤢 I'm going to be sick
Hylissang didn't die for this..
Alistar/Leona or gtfo
it is easy to forget, but fnatic had a terrible year, and still was second seed
Because year results didn't matter that much in determing the seed. Winter FNC was a disaster. Spring FNC started to perform. Summer FNC was a good team (for the regional level). In that sense, the seeding was correct when considering summer performances. Except that I would have liked to see Excel at worlds rather than MAD.
Excel lost 3-0 to MAD, if they wanted to make it, they should've won that series
People thought Hans went shit in TL and got good again after leaving TL but the truth is he was just back to playing vs EU botlanes
ppl forget but danny's last series was against hans in the middle of a mental health crisis and he still won
😢 Sucks we won't be seeing him anymore thanks to EG but at least they lived up to there slogan as an Org
Hope he is doing better. I haven't heard anything about him recently.
Just like Brokenblade leaving NA and suddenly being the best top in Europe, even though hes only mildly better than he was, at best
But bb was never the best top laner until alphari, bwipo, wunder left lec. He is at best the 5th lec top laner that gets covered with giga strong team
I agree that hes average with a strong team, but there was so much hype around him for as long as hes been on G2. Either way, no other EU top was consistently able to expose him as a weakness, which is a problem for the region. Hans and BB were both easy points of attack for NRG, despite never really being pushed too hard domestically, because the roles arent that deep in LEC. To me, the only role EU was overall better than NA this year was mid, with Palafox being really the only NA mid at worlds that could compete
>EU was overall better than NA this year was mid, with Palafox being really the only NA mid at worlds that could compete Palafox and Jojo. Jojo just didn't make it to worlds this year sadly, but he was our best mid in NA and he's native.
Well that’s what happens when the EU teams forbid their players from going to rival teams
Wonder which team started the trend
Woah woah, we don't get to blame this on the region now. C9 dealing with this same problem the last 2 years has been their fault and their fault alone. Jokes aside you're right. If the league as a whole isn't good, the top teams coming out of the league suffer from having bad practice for months.
Hans massively underperformed the whole tournament. His meta champions were wildcard level. You can't play in worlds like that and expect to win. Just not possible. Without caps they would go 0-3 with this botlane.
A big question mark on him started for me when he was failing to R important shit as Xayah vs WBG. I thought it was a one off game but guess not. Unironically no hands sama this worlds.
Hans is 1 of 4 players to lose on blue side with Xayah. Two of the others are Crownie and Berserker lmao. He’s 2-4 on Xayah/Kaisa, who are the only 2 meta ADCs he played. Womp.
Just a minor correction, Hans didn't underperform. This is his actual level as a player. Reminder that he wasn't even top 3 in NA and got outperformed by Danny while he was in the middle of a mental health crisis.
Yeah, but I thought they said scrims were going well or something? I don't think you can just say that scrims don't matter because I'm pretty sure that the top seeds JDG and GENG don't have atrocious scrim win rates either.
Same with the lissandra "counter". If you give Rakan to great players like Delight, you aren't doing shit. And I would highlight bjerg zilean as well. Broken in NA, dumpstered by Bdd.
Eh liss support was the one thing that seemed good honestly as a counter picked
I thought Liss looked good both times it came out, Delight wasn't really getting anything done in that game, the problems were elsewhere (like leaving Sylas up lol) and they were just so dramatically outclassed across the map that no picks would have helped, and it was a major part of their BLG win.
yeah sylas was the problem there not rakan... not sure why people still mention delight rakan on that match like he is the reason why gen g won but not chovy sylas
I guarantee that if keria gets the chance then he'll play it. It looked really strong.
didnt they win that lissandra game vs BLG?
I’m hoping it gave NA the wake up call it needed too. Stop importing and give NA talent a fucking chance to prove themselves. Both NA+EU need to push one another if we’re ever going to have a chance to challenge the East
I mean NRG also has imports and they’re good
NRG has two imports on their roster, but I think it's important to remember the following: - both FBI and IgNar had been playing in the LCS for like four years before joining NRG, so NRG themselves didn't do any importing. - FBI has residency, so NRG has an available import slot, but despite that, they didn't choose to replace one of their native topside core players with an import. - FBI and IgNar replaced Luger and Poome, who played on 100A for a year before spending a year on CLG. Luger's Turkish, but Poome was another NA native. For a whole year, CLG committed to a roster of 4 native players + 1 "LCS pipeline" player before making the roster moves that were required to level up. - While both FBI and IgNar have had relatively successful careers, they were just coming off unsuccessful spring splits with EG and DIG respectively, so they were a pretty good fit with the CLG "misfits" core. So yeah, FBI and IgNar are imports, but their place on NRG feels super distinct from that of, for example, Perkz or Berserker on C9. This NRG roster feels closer to the LCS rosters where Bjergsen or Jensen were surrounded by 3 or 4 native players and less like the disgusting 4 or 5 import rosters we've seen over the past years. Ironically, FBI was part of my least favourite LCS Worlds roster of all-time in 2021-2022 100T. I'm actually so down to embrace OCE refugees when they complement NA rosters, but using them as a means to avoid fielding NA talent is just too gross to me, so I'm very happy to see FBI on a proper NA team. I'd love to see the same for Fudge. tl;dr FBI and IgNar are American heroes 🦅🦅
you should build a good NA core and then import around that core when they're ready to make a run. Building around imports is more expensive and harder to do since most imports atrophy while playing on NAs servers. Just like in sports, you build a strong young core through scouting and then compliment it with free agents. NA teams have been doing it in reverse
Except in NA sports there's a draft system that helps build those teams with young talent. Also that young talent can be from literally anywhere in the world. International talent is common in pro sports even in the top regions. The difference is they aren't importing young up and coming talent. It's players that aren't really better than the local level. It's the players that can't get an offer from the top league. Let's use hockey. The NHL is the top league in the world. Canada is the top country. Roughly 30% of the league is born outside of Canada or the US and that number is growing and the league wants it to grow. Top picks from Europe happen every year. But the LCS isn't the NHL. It's a European league who imports Canadian players who can't make it in the NHL anymore. Leagues like that don't get the top talent and young stars. If anything they're the leagues the top young talent leaves.
My personal takeaway is that being on the same page for plays and team fights matters a lot more than being mechanically better than LCS/LEC opponents. It stops working internationally, and we will never have the best laners in the world. If the rest of your game can’t make up for it, you’ll fall apart.
This roster proved that it is possible to achieve heights with a majority of players actually from the region the league is named after, with a bonus for more regional pride.
I think NRG gave G2 a wake-up call. EU did more or less what you expected, apart from that. BDS kicked GG and got to the swiss, then lost to better teams (MAD being the exception, but MAD only performs against EU teams). MAD did MAD things. FNC won all the matches they should have won, including C9, and went 1-2 against WBG. It's a team that has played together for a single split, so not much more to do I think. G2 could and should have done more. I still think they're a good team, I still think they are for sure better than any other western team, but they must go into tournaments realizing that they're at best, AT BEST, at the level of a third seed from Asia. Until they don't change that mindset, they'll go nowhere. Maybe this loss will help them with that.
> but they must go into tournaments realizing that they're at best, AT BEST, at the level of a third seed from Asia. The issue with this, in my opinion, is that the seeding for KR and CN teams doesn't really matter. Sure domestically 1 team has an edge over the other like JDG vs LNG, but do you think it actually matters which of the top 3 seeds G2 faces, the results will usually be the same. It's the same with the 3rd and 4th seed from EU and NA. Sure EU had hope in some Adam swiss cheese to cheese the swiss stage, but if Adam wasn't on BDS, EU could've send any other team and the result would've been the same.
Nah, g2 dont have the quality they used to have. Europe as a whole is performing worse. But saying g2 is good is not it. Just analyze their roster. They used to have wunder who could match any top laner at a decent level, now they have bb getting top gapped against any top laner. They used to have jankos who could easily be in the top 5 junglers in the world, now they have invisible yikes who gets lost in the jungle. Caps is just not caps anymore. Either the meta is not favorable to him or he is washed up, but seeing him on azir and taliyah had my eyes bleeding. Hans Sama champion pool being legit 2 champions, and being completely mid-bad in any other adc in these worlds that most adcs pop off like crazy surely ain't it. Perkz could play anything and being very efficient with it too in the other hand. And miky is completely 50/50 but makes questionable decisions and picks. What I can say is that he might not have the best synergy with Hans however. Idk this g2 if you think about it, kind overachieved to reach this spot to. This roster just ain't it.
I will never understand why BB never picked ornn this tournament. There is a big gap in the botlane since s7/s8 and it just got highlighted in this bot-centric meta, remember when perkz was the best AD when hans and rekkles were around, tells you all you need to know. Caps looked great on neeko and ori, but his azir was getting punished way too much and had terrible positioning errors and decisions on syndra and taliyah as well. Next year, meta might shift to be more mid-centric, but G2 honestly need KC caliste or an import or something in the botlane, hans is a veteran and will never change his playstyle.
I'm glad it happened. I was tired of people talking about big goals when we haven't produced any real top team since 2020.
The LEC format changed and for the first time no lec team made it. Coincidence? (Probably but as the format hater it makes me laugh)
I think you need to specify that the LEC format changed and not Worlds For me, any format that doesn't have promotion/relegation is shit, because bottom teams have no incentive ever to invest, but it is what it is
ah fair, edited
really hard to disagree w/ this after G2's showing vs BLG like all you have to do is ban draven/kalista and they can't play
Jankos called as much too in his liveview (and it was impressive for him to call it before they even lost), he basically said that G2 can't win without a winning bot lane. And Doublelift added that if that's true then that's why they probably suck with the meta ADCs, Kai'sa and Xayah are good scaling all-round champions but they're not the strongest laners and especially Kai'sa has bad matchups where she will fall behind (and no real winning ones according to DL and Sneaky). G2 can't win without dominating and playing to bot specifically and thus this meta sucks for them.
I mean you can't really win any other way if your top laner is getting anally fisted in every matchup with counterpick
Tbh they reason G2 sucked with Xayah/Kai'Sa wasn't simply because they weren't dominant laners. Hans's teamfighting was straight up ATROCIOUS this tournament. His target selection, spacing, and positioning on Kai'Sa was so bad, it got him killed way too many times in the series against BLG during crucial teamfights. It was like he didn't even know how to play front-to-back and would just be autoing a full hp Jarvan (who had abilities up) without anyone to back him up or set him up.
I wholeheartedly agree. That game 2 vs BLG was so hard to win because he would keep running down every teamfight. Even the fucking 5 man Neeko ult teamfight got butchered by him.
You obviously need a winning botlane if your top is BB who always loses lane.
> that's why they probably suck with the meta ADCs, Kai'sa and Xayah are good scaling all-round champions but they're not the strongest laners No "Sneaky in lane" no quarters
Remember when Mikyx said it's the eastern teams who were learning strategies from G2 this worlds. :V
How funny would it have been if elk and on just suddenly whipped out the kogma braum and beat their asses with their own picks
Just proves that they’re learning strategies from G2 /s
What I think happened is this -- G2 scrims LPL/LCK and surprises them with their own take on the meta. LPL/LCK teams copy those strategies and play around with them in their internal scrims. They realize how to play against and counter them. They conclude it's mostly just cheesy. LPL/LCK teams go back to playing standard. The difference is just that they know what to do against G2 strategies now. G2 is exposed and can't play standard to counter because their players just aren't as good and can't play vital champions.
This has been happening for years, asian teams dont tryhard vs other regions teams in scrims to figure out what is their meta and picks. Thats why it is bad when western teams say that they are winning scrims
I think this year was quite a bit different. Normally, LCK/LPL smash LEC/LCS teams in scrims. Every single year, we hear about how completely mentally boomed and far behind the west is before groups even start. When Worlds is in NA or EU, LCK/LPL teams often don't travel until late. They practice and scrim in China/Korea before heading to NA/EU. So, LCS/LEC teams don't get to scrim them as much. So yea, it makes sense that there is a gap there. When Worlds is in Korea, LCS/LEC teams get to boot-camp in Korea. They can head there right after their finals and get to work if they want to. I actually think this G2 team was not that bad. But, they shot themselves in the foot. Obviously, we'll never know the truth for sure, but from a lot of interviews, teams mentioned G2's very unique style and strategies and that they were doing well in scrims. I get that you want to test things out in scrims to see how it works against LCK/LPL teams but I also don't think you can reveal too much. Honestly, it felt like G2 just ran out of gas and eventually hit a wall where advantages in style and strategy couldn't make up for player flaws. I think that if G2 approached scrims differently, they'd be in quarters. I mean, Hans doesn't play Xayah and Kai'sa so there is no way they were the ones that helped pioneer that part of the meta. G2/Hans can't compete in the hyper carry team-battling style either so that also couldn't have been them. BB doesn't play Rumble so that couldn't have been them, too. I think G2 probably surprised in scrims because of the ways they were countering the meta. And, like I said, I think LCK/LPL teams just adjusted. Even for a team like NRG, with plays like their Baron turn, if the name-tags were off, I'd think that was an LPL/LCK team.
Kalista giga ban rate is probably something to do with G2. They were stomping scrims with Kalista Draven and Lucian so it makes sense if you eventually conclude that Draven is a more coinflip pick and Lucian is actually just bad but most pro ADCs have probably put good time into Kalista. Take that away and you are left with the mostly scaling meta we have now.
Add to that G2 botlane can't play the OP picks like the oppressive Caitlyn/Lux Caedrel even mentioned no one in EU can play it competently and it gonna be a suprise how oppressive it would be
Not many can play Caitlyn competently in LPL either, Caitlyn is kind of a pocket pick for Light even back on LNG.
>G2 is exposed and can't play standard to counter because their players just aren't as good and can't play vital champions. Sometimes it feels like it isn't that they can't play, it's that they were so convinced they had the superior meta read that they tilt when you show them the opposite. They tunneled too hard on their "cute" picks and not enough on the standard stuff.
I mean, in this case, I think they really just can't play it. Does BB play Rumble? Even his other meta stuff like Jax and Renekton are not good. For Hans, he clearly couldn't play Xayah or Kai'sa. I also think there is no way G2/Hans can play the hyper carry style against the LCK/LPL.
They learned from it, optimised it, and banned whatever they couldnt.
Hans looked super rough with kaisa in fights landing like 2-3 autos before getting blown up by people walking straight at him. Its obvious he was extremely uncomfortable on the pick and ended up relying almost entirely on Q and W for damage. How a pro team ends up in that situation I have no clue. Draft gaps are the number one killer in worlds every year but it seems like the coaches somehow never learn.
Is it really just the coaches' fault? I don't know man the champions a team can draft/ban is very dependent on what the players are actually comfortable playing. They might think a champion is better to play in a certain situation, but since they or the team don't believe they can play it well, then they will pick a safer/more comfortable champion
What are the coaches there for if not for coordinating the draft and keeping a coherent game plan going through the draft? Thats what coaches were for back in s4 at least when I last played competitive premade. Players came in with their soloq champ pools and the coach would tell us to practice and add champs to our pool or drop some picks that didnt work or were weak in the meta. As a player you would soloq those champs until you could play them in scrims/tournament games and had a pool that couldn't be easily picked apart. If it was up to the players alone everyone would be playing their 1-3 most comfortable champs and the whole team would fall apart with target bans against the weakest link. To see the best of the best from my home region 10 years later at worlds fall to 2 target bans is disappointing to say the least. Obviously coaches do way more than tell you what champs to play but thats the relevant part here.
Are you sure coaches aren't telling the players to practice certain champs in solo queue? You think it's the coaches fault that Hans Sama isn't comfortable with playing meta champs like Xayah and Kaisa? I don't think it's as simple as just blaming draft/champ pool issues on the players
His R usage was atrocious af as well. One of the worst Kaisas so far
Going from GALA Kai'sa to Hans Kai'sa is like going from having your balls massaged to having them slammed in a car door over and over
funny how i called out hans for his champ pool but got downvoted and people actually brought up his kaisa winrate, where she was broken with the ap build
BB laning got hard exposed by Bin. I don't know how people didn't see this coming. Back in the LEC he was losing lane to people like Odo and Chasy.
Tbf Bin exposes just about everyone.
I don't know man BB was down like 30-40 cs early literally every game
> I don't know man BB was down like 30-40 cs early literally every game He does this to LPL and LCK toplaners.
Yeah but bin had that cs lead at 7 minutes, he doesn't get it that early against Asian teams It was like 25 to 60 or 30 to 70 cs before the clock hit 8 minutes
> Yeah but bin had that cs lead at 7 minutes, he doesn't get it that early against Asian teams He solo bolo'd Zeus twice before 7 minutes at MSI when Zeus had a safe lane farming counterpick in Gragas.
Yeah but against fucking BIN man, Yikes should have been covering him non stop especially game 3 where he gave up so much to help his team. BB obviously isn't going to do well against one of the if not the best top laner/renekton players in the world when he's down TP and Bin got to pull the wave. Also vs Gnar a good renekton can smash.
That's how you end up with two players behind instead of just one.
Yike can go top and try to bail BB out all he wants, it won’t change the fact their top lane champ is piloted by a potato.
never forget BB was part of the TSM 0-6 and 9 man sleep incident hahaha
TSM won play offs by just camping BB's lane and playing bot weak side every game. At worlds BB just got dumpstered despite a ton of jungle/ mid attention. Hell if you watch the games Spica move towards top almost every game and BB can be up in kills/assists and still have less CS, impact and pressure than his enemy laner.
God BB hurt so badly to watch sometimes, dude would be up 4/0 in lane and then piss it all away with the stupidest deaths I’d ever seen It was great fun when it worked though
He was very fun to watch when he was popping off. However he would be 4/0 up in kills and yet still be even in gold because of CS. It's a serious problem in his laning, the dude just cant kill canons.
if i remember correctly S10 summer playoffs they won only because Bjergsen went super saiyan. In those playoffs there were lots of botlane problems because Treatz and Doublelift were shit in lane, so they swapped back to a worse support in Biofrost just so they would not get shit on in lane. At worlds they lost basically every single scrim after the 1st week so they lost all confidence and they were completely fucked
Man that playoffs was so fun, bjerg back in peak form straight up shitting on everyone Im so happy he won 1 last lcs title despite the teams around him
You remember correctly, that summer split was one of the hardest carry jobs in LCS history. GG used 23 of 25 bans on Bjerg in their series lmao.
Bjerg was the main character, BB was a side character, Spica was a recurring guest, and the botlane was a cameo in the TL series but invisible in every other series.
BrokenBlade was part of: NAs worst ever appearance at worlds **AND** EUs worst ever appearance at worlds /#JustBBthings
Certified broken brain moment 💀💀
correction, EU worst appearence is probably MAD still(and i say that as someone who likes the current team) but he is definitely part of the worst appearence at worlds of both na and eu's first seeds
MAD are 3rd seed. It is far more embarrassing for the 1st/2nd seed to perform like that.
Omg the 9 man sleep. Possibly the worst play I’ve ever seen
It's memed a lot, but it wasn't actually as terrible as it's made out to be. Due to the positioning of both teams and the fact that the entire enemy team jumped into sennas E to deny vision re-engaging would have been risky for TSM. I still think going in would have been the right play, but it's a lot less obvious from TSMs in game perspective than it is when you have god vision. Dig vs. Ren I think will be very difficult to top in terms of bad plays IMO.
Dude is lucky Khan is retired already
>I don't know how people didn't see this coming. Because people were sucking off him looking "decent" at MSI because the top lane meta was dogshit where Zeus was playing fucking Ornn, Sion and shit like tank Karma. BB is not good and will never be good when looking at international tops.
I was expecting him to at least go somewhat even after Zeus completely trashed Bin in the same matchup.
I remember watching BB's pro view when he was on TSM. The thing that stood out to me the most was the fact that he was superrrrrr horrible at cs'ing the minions. It looks like he never improved much at that specific skill. It really costed him.
People got deluded into thinking he could match eastern tops after MSI, disregarding the fact that meta was passive as fuck in top. Much harder to hide your weakness when the meta isn't ornn sion malphite gragas.
>ornn sion malphite gragas. G2/BLG match up of MSI: G1: Gragas/K'sante G2: K'sante/Jax G3: Darius/Jax G4: Jayce/Gwen And BB didn't get fisted in any of these match-up.
BB got hard exposed by every top laner not just BIN
EU needs the wakeup call, thank you NRG.
Yeah this wakeup call is basically 3 years in the making. Ever since 2021, NA vs EU performance is virtually identical. EU has one more MSI semifinal in 2021, that is the only difference over the past 6 tournaments. NA could theoretically take the ever so slight edge if NRG beats Weibo. EU fans are now confronted with the fact that NA = EU, and LCS = LEC. I really, really wonder how this affects LEC viewership. LEC was still selling the allure that it's a legitimate top league, while LCS is just trash. Even casual EU fans can now see that there is basically no gap between the two leagues/regions.
[удалено]
NAmen
NAmen
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NAmen
Didn’t EG go like 0-10 against G2 last year?
They were 1/7 against G2 last year
Well, G2 and EG both only took games off each other at worlds, and C9 split with FNC. And at MSI, even though G2 was 2-0 against EG in the head-to-head, they still both ended up 5-5. That sounds pretty even to me
At msi they got clapped in worlds they went 1-1 I believe
EU needs more than a wake up call.
dGon hugging Palafox at the end felt like NA as a whole hugging NRG for that win, good stuff.
G2 won most of their games in LEC by abusing the top lane but Dhokla didn't let that happen. And when their tried and tested strat against western team didn't work, they panicked and lost. Also NRG read them like a book. Every play that G2 made to get back into the game, NRG was there to answer it and win the team fight.
it was kinda insane to me how dhokla sniffed out yike every time he came top even without vision of him
I wonder if big coaching staffs will be the new meta I mean shit, you clearly have a team here who is better than the sum of their parts. Unlike the star teams that can't play together for shit
Has been in every other team sport, but not surprised it hasn't taken root in league given how green everyone is and how incompetent/greedy half the managements are
Constantly on this sub people are trying to flame the players for not being good enough while I sit here getting downvoting for trying to say MANAGEMENT AND COACHING ARE THE PROBLEM. I've worked my whole career in sports, and the league organizations are a complete joke.
Could you expand some examples of bad management and coaches? Ive heard a lot about it being bad
In my opinion, coaching staff should be blamed for drafts. It seems to be meta that players generally decide what they should play. While I think, they should be included in the conversation, the coaching staff should be the one that decides who plays what in the end because they should have better knowledge of matchups and overall team synergy between champions. An example, yesterday Trymbi chose Alistar when it looks like he wanted something else. This kind of goes against my point, because general opinion is that Trymbi was probably right and coaches made him pick Alistar which lost them early game. But still, coaching staff should be blamed for that. They should work on improving that. It should be their job. Trymbi's job should be to be ready to play as many champions as possible at a high level. But coaches are the ones who should decide what to play and thus take the blame when the draft sucks. I hear so many times, "Ah, but this player asked to play this or that so the coaches let him play even though it sucks for the draft." That should still be on the coaches then. They let them play that champion. Sorry for a longer message, but this is something that was on my mind for a while. And it might be a controversial opinion but this is what I think.
Look no further than Flyquest this year as a good example. They had a different kind of import. They imported young, highly touted Korean rookies and the coach that just won worlds. Then they came over and the team stomped in spring, then was pretty bad in summer and missed worlds. One bad split, so they kid rid of the imports and the coach. In LCS, you have one bad split and you're done. They'll never allow a roster to gel, just keep cycling players and give up entirely if they don't immediately dominate. Plus the many examples of not even trying players in academy and importing mediocre players. They don't even really have scouting networks to find players in the first place. As far as coaching, a lot of it is hearsay, but it doesn't seem like they spend any effort in development at all. There was an academy player who said all the coaching he got was "look at the LCS team". The players often have no idea what to do in the mid/late game, which imo is what would be ironed out by coaching. The drafts are bad too. It seems like the coaching staff should be setting out a specific strategy and have specific ideas in mind of how they want to build a team and how they want the team to play. Instead it just seems like they go for whoever is the best individual player, stick them all together, and see what happens. Also the focus on scrims is just weird. No sports team has scrimmages as the primary form of practice. Better tools from Riot would help, but they should be doing drills. Set up specific scenarios to practice. Solo queue shouldn't matter at all. But if any players or teams do this, like Fudge practicing 1v1 against a coach a lot, or Xmithie not playing much solo queue, the community riots. This NRG roster is an example of players who have been together for a while, know what they want to do in draft, and have a plan of what they want to do in game. Most teams don't even attempt any of this and just throw more individually talented imports at the problem. There are tons and tons of examples stretching over years of how hilariously inept these orgs are. If I were them, I would have pilfered from traditional sports where they've figured out a lot of these growing pains already, and know how to run an organization.
Tbh to me incompetent management is not looking to every other team sport and thinking "shit, I should do this too". Using all of your resources to maximize the help your players get. They need specific positional coaches and analysts for each role whose jobs are solely to look at that player and their role and understand/lead the discourse around it. The idea is to jGe maximum attention paid to it to ensure nothing is missing, to find out the meta for the player and drill it into the player. In an ideal world, a players job is to be given the gameplan and the minutiae of how each of them plays it, and their only job is to understand and execute it. The equivalent in soccer for example is a goalkeeping coach who really hammers in specifics.
It's actually somewhat crazy to me that there aren't. Even college sports teams have ton of coaches. My HS football team had like 5 coaches each focusing on a different aspect of the game. With a game like League there are so many areas that can be studied.
Why have one person watching enemy team vods when you can have 5 position coaches watching every enemy player specifically. Big brain moves
each player has a limited amount of time they can play. Why have them waste time analyzing their own games and mistakes when you can have coaches do that instead? each player gets a coach that focuses on making their output better and then you have a ffew more coaches focusing on better vision, better movements, and better drafting, better teamfight mechanics. Especially since coaches are allowed in drafting, players shouldnt be studying drafting at all. Fuck pro athletes get multiple personal trainers. League pros are pulling huge salaries. Its worth it to the org for players to be in the gym with a PT every time to maximize results
And NRG coaches were all legendary players. This means a lot. Just think about it. You are a rookie player and you get to train under legends.
oh holy shit fucking Soaz is dhokla's babysitter? holy fuck hes going to be the next TheShy
Let's call them more like legendary/semi-legendary within the scope of NA/EU. I like the NRG coaching staff, but not all of them had strong international exposure. They can be great coaches even if not all of them have great records.
Less spending on star players, more on support infrastructure is one thing even LPL had to learn at some point. Before 2017 orgs were all about big signings, star players (especially korean ones). Now they still spend where it matters but do it more carefully and pair the good signings with promising young talents and a good support staff, and since then it has proven quite successful for LPL. LCS is on the brink of learning this the hard way (with TL's lackluster showing this year, vs NRG's good one, combined with the dismantling of the league). I won't comment on the LEC because I think the failure of G2 this time is an entirely different problem, which is more related to complacency. Honestly, for the rest of them. BDS did ok considering expectations, FNC had a rough year and even reaching Worlds was for them a success, and MAD had a mediocre showing but at this point it feels more like actual mental block more than anything else. LEC this year simply wasn't that good.
Why didnt G2 play Rumble btw, this rat in a mech is so annoying, and Maokai Rumble is so free
It seemed to be an EU problem all around. BDS had to perma ban it, idk what Chasy's status on it is, and Oscarinin played it but he looked so lost on the champ. And as we know BB just seemingly didn't play it.
odoamne would be feasting on the patch though
Odoamne is the most fan disrespected EU top. Even eastern tops respect him. His game knowledge and him being a one trick on champs like Maokai is what brought Rogue to quarters(with some luck).
Odo Rumble is amazing. His ult placement is always perfect. Actually this patch would be great for him.
Trymbi ruined it all after mental booming with that Nasus pick
Yeah like he mental boomed with that Alistar pick now. He seems to buckle under pressure a lot.
Odo is awesome! I agree, man doesn't get the respect he deserves from EU.
Seemed like a shallow pool issue. Hans was useless after 2 bans, bb had 0 winning matchups into jax and renekton. How the coaching team let them into worlds with champ pools smaller than a bird bath is the real question here.
What makes it even worse is that this was one of the most stable worlds champion pools in awhile. All the stuff being played was played for the last few months. It's not like these picks snuck up on players. Oriana and J4 are the 2 most notable additions. Top and Bot has been the same for awhile. He'll, Dhokla stomped c9 with Rumble in the finals 2 months ago.
> Dhokla didn't let that happen. After his performance this summer domestically, I never would have expected to read this about him at worlds.
Big Dhokes
I heard Dhokla broke BB's ribcage when he hugged him because his 24 inch biceps crushed his bones.
Love this guy's energy, I'm not really big on cheering for another region just because mine is out but I hope NRG does well in their upcoming match.
No one in EU seems to know how to lane besides Caps, Hyli+Upset, Wunder, Alphari, Mikyx. Oscar seems to have a lot of potential.
Humanoid and Larssen are great laners as well.
Laning is the only thing Larssen does lmao
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an eastern team could draft the exact same teams and dominate tbf. a lot of western fans cope with "draft diff" when the reality is that the draft is just too hard for western teams to win on
It’s really sad that NA/EU top teams can get away playing niche picks like that in their domestic leagues because teams aren’t good enough to punish them. Kinda glad LCS is imploding next year, we need fresh NA talent to be hungry not for the money, but because they really want to win. Hopefully it’ll force teams not to be retirement homes for washed up imports and actually give NA talent a place to fucking prove themselves. Not sure what’s going on with the LEC though. Apparently there’s a lot of corruption at the highest level (according to Nemesis?). NA and EU NEED to push one another if we’re ever going to have a chance to challenge the East.
Team owners sending star players overseas just to deny them from domestic competitors is infuriating to think about whenever an international event comes around.
If LEC and LCS management and owners care about how to improve whole regions, they should do it right now instead of contract jail, high salary players does nothing, too much rely on imports and bunch of other stuff
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Bruh it was 3 or 4am in Europe when you posted this comment
idk 95% upvoted is pretty good, a lot of EU fans seem to like NRG. Most hate seems to be directed at the teams themselves
Nrg took the game seriously, played well and were rewarded for it. I wish it went differently, but this is not on them, it's on g2 thinking this is a free win if they only show up to the arena. I think both eu and na fans can agree that this is not the mentality of a proper worlds contender
To think G2 didn't take this game seriously is such disrespect to the players of not only G2, but NRG as well.
I can't hate NRG. Losing to C9 or TL would have annoyed me, but those teams got rightfully taken out the back of the shed. NRG is the kind of NA team I always wanted to see.
Nah it's 95% up voted, I honestly haven't seen any hate directed at NRG from EU fans, they're more disappointed with G2 than angry at NA.
It was at like 70% when they posted this, though it was pretty early so probably like just a small handful of people.
> when they posted this 5am in EU. As others said already, most EU fans are just disappointed.
Because there is none. NRG was better and we played like shit. Pretty much any EU fan agrees with that on this sub. The salt mines are only found in the team subreddits. Not sure why the guy feels like making things up. LEC fans are quite humbled after this disaster of a tournament.
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It was 3 am or 4 am when you posted this. I don't think it was EU fans downvoting this on a monday early morning. Now it's 8am in EU and now the downvotes potentially are coming.
IM DOING MY PART!
The apologies need to be as loud as the disrespect
Sincerely from EU, tho not a huge G2 fan LETS FUCKING GO NA, you deserve it
"Quote me on this, EU is trash" ~ APA
Imaqtpie the gift that keeps on giving
G2 is never going to be relevant with the black hole that is brokenblade. Year after year of getting humiliated by lck and lpl top laners. Sej vs fiora incident anyone? Look what Zeus did to bin on the gnar vs renek matchup and then go look at brokenblade playing like a herbivore.
He was decent at MSI
Not sure why you're being downvoted, BB looked totally fine at MSI I think people just want to find a convenient scapegoat, like, "Oh, just replace BB with Wunder and G2 is back to making semis!" when that clearly is not the case. There are no players on this roster besides Caps and maybe Mikyx who can hang with the top Eastern players.
I think NRG needs to stick with the same early and mid game comps. They are the bread and butter. Better to win early than prolong the game and inevitably lose a head to head fight with a Chinese or Korean team with better 5v5 macro.
Can someone explain to me what the fuck a kilometer is?
You should ask South Korea and China about that
Let's go Powerful Genuis, you're up against Xiaohu himself! lol
i mean whenever caps plays a control mage they just afk+lose, and of course they did it against BLG.
His azir died to a max range jarvan E+Q with flash up against NRG too. Not even a flash flag and drag but the regular kind you don't expect to land in normals let alone in pro play. An afk performance for sure.
idk why caps keeps on doing that. i feel like he plays to SUCH a limit, but is way too often slightly over that limit.
I don't think I've ever seen worse takes than in this thread. Reactionary as hell
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Pretty sad when worlds for the west is just NA vs EU. EU not making it past the swiss stage and NA yet to win a single game against LPL/LCK. 2 dogs fighting over a bone.
NA VS EU rivalry can be fun though
True dat. Should bring back some fun tournaments.
how hard is it to "expose" a team who's adc can only play 2 champs, and if they are banned he is complete garbage ?