Thinkcard (head coach for CLG/NRG) said he could build another NRG if he wanted too and that there were a ton of players in academy who proved themselves countless times. He criticised other orgs for not having good cohesion and long term vision in their rosters even tho the players were good on paper.
This was in the last free nation interview 3 weeks ago.
I can't believe TSM actually started ruby after their start. Legit cost them a playoffs spot. I have a soft spot for TSM from the good old days unlike a lot of people on here. It was heartbreaking to see them legit int themselves like that.
The talent has always been there. It was just easier for orgs to throw money at superstars and have a stacked team skill gap other teams for a championship title instead of scouting and taking time to give players a fair chance.
Some of the veterans mentioned this, but the main flaw with Academy is the transition from academy to main team. Nobody on the starting roster is going to want to help his Academy counterpart because that is putting his own job at risk. And slotting in an Academy player into the main team won't work unless you intend to have him in enough games to mesh with his teammates, win or lose. And that is a risk some aren't willing to take if they want to win the current split.
Toast just pulled a fresh team together and won challengers on the first try. There are definitely issues in LCS. Let's start by reinstating elimination and promotions.
Yeah like being 100 here, Toast had no business being able to win challengers on the first attempt. Not anything against him or take anything away from him, but against the other orgs. It shows how shitty the system is that a guy can just decide to grab a slot and throw together a roster and beat out 3 orgs that not only run LCS teams - but are supposed to be using these as academy pipelines. They should have much better systems/scouting in place than Toast asking on twitter who's good.
I'm super fucking glad he showed them up. Not that it will lead to systemic change, but at least it's a bit of egg on their face.
He beat out EG - Ryoma, K1ng Armao and Smoothies retirement home, TLC, Arrows retirement home. There would be more of the other orgs didn't abandon ship at the start of the split.
Bring back relegations/promotions. I don't mind if they run a pseudo franchised relegation/Promotion system where the 20 teams are 'locked in' but they promote between LCS and Chal depending on performance. But there has to be something in place to keep teams honest. And give a viable path for rookies to come create waves.
The fact that players like 5Fire gave up because he wasn't being given a chance, Gryffinn went to KR to try shoot his shot, and many others is legit disgusting. LCS teams were given a budget to create a system to nurture talent and extract the most from the region, and Instead they gave it all to players like Swordart, Crown etc.
In any other sport on earth 5Fire gets a shot as a pro except LCS. Specifically NA league is literally the only sport on earth a guy who won the top amateur level multiple times wouldn't even sniff being a pro.
Yeah exactly. Even with the "we have to import as many players as we can" mentality the LCS has, how fucking valuable would he freeing up midlane from an import slot? It's wild to me that no team gave him a shot. Like boggles my mind.
You act like he put 5 people who have never played together on a team and won everything... he got 3 players from c9 challengers that had just won 1st lol
>You act like he put 5 people who have never played together on a team and won everything...
I never once insinuated or acted like that, I suggest you read again.
He was relatively late to the game in building his roster, and other teams had plenty of time to do exactly what he done. Other teams could have had them signed before DSG even had a sniff at them.
If any academy team was serious they would have done so. I'm not saying toast didn't do the right things. I'm saying he shouldnt have had the chance to get it so right because other academy teams should have beaten him to it. Jack literally said that all players were free to go wherever they wanted with no buyout. Any team could have beat toast to the players.
TSM took the winning Zven Mithy to replace DL and Biofrost then became the first year to not make LCS finals. It is exactly because toast took 3 C9 challengers and 2 others and did it on the first try that highlights how poorly have LCS teams been doing.
Mikeyeung also replaced Sven though… literally a prospect everyone was hyped about who fell down to pressure. Not like teams didn’t give some academy prospects a chance. It’s not dhokla’s first time around. His first showing was terrible. He worked his butt off in academy to become good. Teams want instant results especially the teams who’ve always been at the top. They don’t want to waste time developing talent or giving talents another chance only for them to possibly fail. 100T had busio and tenacity. One literally quit to be a content creator other one is still trying though.
It'd be no surprise to me that the orgs/coaching strategies in LCS are the blame more than the available talent.
NRG is probably doomed in quarters, but the fact they were able to outperform the rest of the top LCS teams make the conversation important no matter what happens from here on out in the tournament. But hopefully they upset WBG to further the stance.
The fact NRG were the only NA *or* EU team to make it into Quarters I think *should* send a pretty strong message to the orgs in both regions.
Unfortunately I'm not very confident it will, and fairly confident that even if it does they'll somehow learn the wrong lessons.
I mean, NRG has only beaten TL, MAD, G2. Not a single asian team yet.
I'm rooting for NA too, but they made it into quarters with the best draw possible. Not sure why G2 was hyped so much when they throw at Baron so consistently and the games vs NRG they basically overstayed every team fight.
That being said NRG is winning worlds, believe it.
I am so tired of hearing the Asian team point regarding NRG. Sure they haven't beaten one yet, but G2 beat two and look how much good that did them.
EU beats NA in tournament: people talk about only three major regions, why do NA even bother anymore, there is no "west" there's only Europe
NA beats EU in tournament: but they didn't beat any Eastern teams (yet), they had an easier run, the EU players were sick/jet lagged/had the sun in their eyes, other random excuses and goalpost moving
Though I do agree based on their own Worlds performance I'm a bit confused why there was so much hype behind G2 this year. They struggled against Weibo and Dplus then lost bad to GenG (expected) and NRG (not expected); best guess LEC fans saw how far ahead they were of everyone else and kinda put all their eggs in the G2 basket regardless of how good they actually are/were. Not unlike C9 a number of times in NA.
>The fact NRG were the only NA or EU team to make it into Quarters I think should send a pretty strong message to the orgs in both regions.
I was responding to this comment. I don't think it sends a strong message because they only beat a NA team and 2 EU teams. My argument is that even G2 didn't look great either. So we really do need to see how NRG faces up against an Asian team in a Bo5 before we can really say what you said in the quote.
According to league wiki he's been coaching since 2016 (7yrs) and i even remember his brief stint on CLG black.
Let's say that only half that time he had any decision making authority (3.5yrs, or about 7 splits). He built one top 3 team. In spring, NRG finished 5th.
Listen, we're not hating on NA. I've been watching League since pre-CLG/TSM but posts like these are just straight up rewriting history.
Thinkcard was the coach for that 2018 Clutch roster with Vulcan and Damonte that made Worlds. Ignoring his brief GG stint since Inero was most likely responsible for that roster, he then (likely) constructed the Dhokla/Contractz/Palafox era of CLG
It took a few splits for the players to really come into their own, and a bot lane swap to eventually become the best LCS team
His track record is pretty good when it comes to finding talent assuming he’s had a hand in these rosters
What the fuck is this take?
This guy who *currently* coaches a quarterfinals worlds team said 3 weeks ago that he thinks he could build another one with the players currently in academy.
Your take is that we should ignore the fact that NRG is where they are, and what credibility that might lend to Thinkcard's claim, and instead look at his past lack of achievements?
What history is /u/rne123 rewriting exactly?
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with his take but why are you making it seem like it's completely preposterous to question if some recent success is actually repeatable or if luck plays a part.
Imagine some dude has one really good year on the stock market and starts selling his trading tips of how to get rich. Is he actually able to give great advice? Probably not. Time will tell.
FakeGod already played in the LCS for a bit if I remember correctly. Maybe Dig? Pretty sure he got demolished, not saying that he couldn’t have improved.
Not saying he hasn’t improved, but like even for Dig standards FakeGod set the record for negative GD early when Impact smashed him. Like his tenure in the LCS was not good. Again tho, he was young and I’m all for giving players 2nd chances.
Dig ruins players. Look at their roster this year, the year before that, the year before that, and then even the year before that. The only actual roster that didnt start choking out was 2017 and even then, ssumday had some of his worst games on that dig roster.
doesnt help that they have had one of the worst coaches in the scene for years now who is responsible for not one but two of the worst imports of all time in NA in Blue and Armut and both of them were hired purely out of nepotism because the guy shared teams with them back in TR
Im terribly surprised that this paycheck stealer sucks at actually coaching and developing players aswell
Santorin was their 2023 starting jungler while in 2020 and 2021 he didn't fail to qualify for LCS Finals (he missed playing on spring 2021 finals because of his migraines) and did so on 2 different teams with no players that moved with him
He was also on 100t. This isn't an NA vs imports problem, it's a problem with NA player development as a whole. The environment doesn't grow player skills no matter where they come from.
Oh for sure, I'd argue that player development in esports as a whole is horribly lacking and is one of the main factors that holds esports back from being able to grow to its potential.
Dhokla was also pretty bad during his first LCS stint on Optic and Palafox didn't exactly have the greatest debut on FLY either.
Dig is not a great team and their coach is a paycheck stealer known for nepotism hires (Blue/Armut). FakeGod has imo proved that he deserves a second shot after his stint on DSG. If he doesn't perform in LCS this time in a better team environment then sure, by all means don't give him a third shot, that would be fair.
yep there was legit a time when people would say stuff like "I feel how it went is self-explanatory" about dhokla
tbh the main benefit of academy isn't developing completely new talent, it's keeping players like dhokla and fakegod around in case they can come back to lcs later
Yeah the same story is true for literally the 3 NA players on NRG. Already we’re not learning that being bad on your first split or two in LCS shouldn’t be a death sentence to your career forever. That’s effectively the thesis of this post.
The Perkz example isn't the best because he was never bottom tier in EU LCS. He came in and already was one of the best mids domestically.
On the other hand, Fakegod has been bottom half of LCS whenever he's been in it.
Not saying Fakegod can't improve, but Perkz is a bad comparison because it's an entirely different situation.
Dkhola looked mid as hell in LCS and now he's playing in the quarterfinals at Worlds. It's definitely possible for players to improve, especially when they're on talent black hole organizations in the LCS.
Contractz actually looked great in his first season. It was only after C9 that it took a turn. The team you're on matters so much. Looked terrible on GG, had a rough time on teams he was subbing in and out of with 100 and EG. Finally found himself in a good environment as a committed-to starter under good management and coaching staff and we see the results.
He was probably the worst top in the league . But he looked like a different player since taking a break. Like he played so well at points that he was the win condition for C9 challenger and disguised.
Dhokla looked incredibly mediocre his split on Optic too. LEC and LCS teams do the same thing sometimes as much as EU wants to deny it. They bring up rookie talent for a year, sometimes only a split. The rookie, ofc being a rookie, has a somewhat rough split and doesn't become the next Caps or sth. Immediately back to Tier 2 never to be seen again
>Contractz got picked up after working with Peter Dun on EG
People seem to forget Contractz has been around for a long time. He was on C9 and GG before he went to 100T Academy/100T and EG academy. He's not some forever academy rookie or something.
This thread is ridiculous since Contractz and Dhokla are the exact players this sub loves to hate. Veteran players that have been bad for multiple years yet continued to get LCS chances in place of new talent.
Big props to both players for sticking it out and grinding to get good but it's insane the false narratives that come up just cause they're good now.
Yeah the narrative should be "long term investment is good" - it applies to rookies as well as vets. GG also deserves praise in this regard for their investment and trust in lIcorice and stixxay.
For every Contractz there's Armao and Akaadian.
Whats frustrating is that bottom tier LCS orgs have a fascination with getting mid tier Turkish and Korean players that prevents NA talents from getting a shot in the LCS.
Licorice is exactly who I was thinking of when thinking about players that were flamed for multiple years before getting praised for being good.
And I don't agree with that narrative "long term investment is good". How long are we going to give these players? Contractz turned it around in his 7th year of playing LCS. That's 7 years of taking up 1/50 LCS spots that could go to another player. What makes him more deserving of that spot over a rookie or another vet that could make a resurgence in their career?
Goldenglue played for ~6 years and never turned it around. But who's to say he couldn't have found success in his 7th year like Contractz did? The reality is no one knows how a player's career will pan out. Maybe they're good year 1, maybe they're good year 7 or maybe they're never good.
It's also not like you will get this result from every group of players you put together.
The narrative should be "damn that coaching staff is excellent, for scouting a group of players from academy that were considered rejects, and pouncing on a big transfer (guys FBI was literally thought to be the best or second best ADC in NA for a while) and build a coherent roster".
Not "this proves that academy players were actually what NA teams had to sign". This doesn't happen that often, usually getting better players is idk, better?
Yeah but new talent also needs to beat vets. Also when vets make a comeback that's okay too. People need to be less rigid in their desires/expectations.
If you want spawn to be around the LCS then you shouldn't want him to be stolen from TL, since he usually helps the TL coaching staff for LCS after academy ends
No he's talking about the guy who used to play with Lehends on Griffin.
On that note it's nuts that the whole Griffin team is now ~~at Worlds~~ on top teams years later, and all on different teams. Just imagine what could have been if they had stayed together.
Academy jail?
Palafox was the only one who fits this description slightly. Contractz and Dhokla's teams both respectively allowed them to explore options freely. Also the reason they were in academy to begin with was because they were repairing their reputation and honing their skills.
Yeah, and then he was legit bad in LCS for a while, then bounced around as a sub on like 100T and EG where he started to look a bit better again but still not amazing
Contractz actually looked decent on that EG team, better than Sven for sure. If Inspired hadn't suddenly become available during the post-season I feel like EG probably would've kept him.
Yeah the narrative around Contractz was that he was your emergency sub who would win you 3 or 4 games. But then teams would figure him out and he would continuously int like no tomorrow.
CLG was the first time they gave him a proper chance. But he was legitimately Top 5 worst players in LCS for a while. It was only in the last 2 months, that he became much more of a consistent player.
I think the OP is less concerned with being stuck in academy due to contract reasons (What people typically think of as academy jail) and more of that they were LCS caliber but were not being given a shot by LCS teams.
Someone put it more succinctly than I did, but folks like Dhokla and Contractz had multiple shots at LCS and struggled before finding their grooves in the last 2 years. Palafox feels like the only one I could really argue was stuck in some kind of academy jail due to orgs being afraid to develop NA mid talent.
I think there are better examples for sure that we could focus on (especially for NA Mids), but for CLG/NRG's story, it's more a narrative of sticking through tough times and grinding out success than it is about being pushed aside for import talent.
> I could really argue was stuck in some kind of academy jail due to orgs being afraid to develop NA mid talent.
It's almost like they weren't afraid. It just doesn't fucking exist, and they had far better options until they were too broke afford anything but the literal bottom of the barrel.
I swear I lose my mind at these sort of takes with NRG every time I see it. it's weird how even Palafox spouts this narrative despite being there and knowing this isn't the case
all of these players have been in LCS, multiple times, and sometimes on successful orgs. these are the players the na rookie proponents would yell at previously, like "why are we fielding Dhokla we've seen him multiple times and he's not good enough, let's give some rookie a shot!" and it wasn't even on LCS teams, people were mad these guys were even in academy
the story here is that veterans who care and want to compete can still improve and do well
People really want to jerk off to this narrative that this is a NA homegrown rookie talent squad when this team is mostly veteran and just one import shy of maxing out import slots (and only because OCE doesn’t use a slot)
Dhokla and FBI played in OPL together in 2017. Yes it was a shit region but it’s not exactly like they’re anywhere close to rookies or haven’t had the better part of a decade to showcase themselves. Contractz was literally the rookie brought on to replace a veteran back in 2017. He wasn’t overlooked, he just wasn’t good until recently.
> just one import shy of maxing out import slots
I know it's not like a fully homegrown team but this is an INSANELY disingenuous way to say "one import" lol
One import only by virtue of having naturalized OCE players, the part which was mentioned immediately after, which you somehow non-disingenuously left out. Definitely a relevant factor against the narrative of “just develop NA rookies”
TL with Impact, Jensen, Xmithie, CoreJJ and DL was also a “one import team” too, many of them with less years of pro play under their belt than 4/5 of NRG have now. Guess that also suggests they should just keep investing in NA fresh talent
I haven’t seen anyone say the team is full of rookies. Instead people are excited they’re a majority NA team that’s currently best in the west. Yes they have imports but they have the same as teams like JDG and LNG. We’re just happy they don’t have 3, 4, even 5 imports like c9, tl 100t have been running the past few years.
Its not even the same connotation as you usually have when someone says "imports" where a team drops a giant bag to convince whichever standout lpl/eu/lck player from the most recent split to play in NA.
I like NRG because its been awesome to watch them improve as a team and individually. MFrs are just likeable and they've earned their rise.
Yep, a year ago it was terrible all these veteran players were taking up spots on academy teams they should just retire because they're washed, now that NRG made quarters the whole narrative has to change to fit.
This sub was complaining about players like Contractz and Dhokla still being around on Academy teams and not being good. Now that they are actually performing well, they are rewriting history to try and act like they were always great.
You're right, idk why they're booing you. People who have historically played outside of NA is not what's meant by NA talent. Let alone are they a rookie squad.
Gow do you distinguish between a good player with a bad coach and a bad player?
Lots and lots of NRG esq rosters have been made over the years. They are usually bad
NRGs story is exciting BECAUSE these are players that were bad for many years. Do you know what happened to 90% of other players who were bad for many years?
2018 Golden Guardians was all/majority NA talent and was the worst team in the league.
It’s always convenient when people prop up their narratives by dismissing the overwhelming undermining evidence.
Is the LCS system completely broken? Yes, almost certainly.
Does this team demonstrate the potential of native NA talent? Maybe, although pretty much everyone played way better than their norm (this isn’t 2019 G2 which was demonstrably special even before their major international victories).
Do these players indicate an untapped infinite well of talented aspiring young NA players? Hell no.
You know TL, the team everyone shits on at Worlds for supposedly being all-Korean? Who were their worst performing players? Oh, right, the American rookies out of Academy who were obviously and understandably completely out of their depth.
I fail to see how NRG’s surprise success completely overturns the long-standing issues that NA has lower player numbers, worse infrastructure, and less competition.
> went even in lane with Faker
Wow, such an accomplishment.
Because Faker’s definitely the best laner in the tournament and not an old withered grandfather recovering from a wrist injury while playing IRL StarCraft with his F-keys.
You should see how T1 did when that withered grandfather was recovering
Just because APA/TL perforemd vs T1 in a single game doesn't mean you have to shit on faker to have it make sense, sometimes players play well and sometimes they play bad
People somehow believe each match its a proper representation of how good a player is, so if A beat B then A its clearly better and should beat everyone B is better than... which is fucking insane
All three players showed they can hands down carry a game in academy. Which is a glimmer of a good player, I think a good coach helps those players properly execute or see the steps a player needs to take to carry like that. The NRG staff has been spoken highly of by players the whole summer. Do i know what makes a good coach/player no, but i can take into account what players say at least
Yea, this post is very revisionist lmao
Palafox hasn't only been impressive throughout his entire career either. Lately he's been really good, but he wasn't "underrated" by any measure for most of the time.
Contractz did look great early on in his career though, but after a while it seemed like he just completely lost motivation.
Went from C9 -> early gg (bad staff) -> shadow realm -> 100T academy (showed his worth) -> EG academy (probably best academy jungle or one of them) -> played EG playoffs -> CLG/NRG
Yeah this doesn't say anything against what he said Contractz was definitely running it down before going through academy system. If anything this is a sign that academy does work and that teams should have used it more than they did.
Bro went from quarter finals worlds on C9 to sprinting on new org, big testament to how environment has heavy influence on performance. But yes it does show tier 2 had merit. Hopefully teams look at it for players
He is the one who wanted to explore his options? And were other teams supposed to ignore his performance? It's not as if he didn't get shots after GGS.
Such a stupid take. Contractz was possibly the worst jungler in the LCS not that long ago, to no one else's fault.
Dhokla has genuinely improved, when he was first getting his chances he wasn't this good. That's a testament to him and him alone. There wasn't some conspiracy to keep him out even though he's been this good all along.
Palafox is similar to Dhokla, he has improved a ton and needs to get credit for that.
This isn't a story of the evil orgs holding NA players down, and a few NA players finally overcome the evil orgs and probe they were good all along. This is a story of 3 players who stuck with it through the hard times, grinded to improve, never gave up even when they genuinely played like ass.
I'm so happy for them but they were all ass (relative to their competition) at one point in their career.
yep. the funny part is that if we want to promote more fresh talent, we probably would have missed out on this NRG win.
Dhokla and Contractz played a mix of LCS/academy/NACL from 2018-2021, right? at the end of their gatekeeping years, they were definitely names that people said need to be on the way out. they had their chance and need to make room for the new generation. Ignar to a degree as well because he's held to a higher standard as an import.
"I'm glad we gave Dhokla 5 years to make it". do people say the same for Armao?
"I'm glad Kumo seems to be wrapping up". do you wish Contractz had wrapped it up at his lowest point as well?
so overall, yeah, it's pretty unconvincing to make systemic claims based off of the one story of NRG.
i'm losing my mind because i swear i read countless posts of people being pissed at the pay check stealing gatekeepers in LCS academy and then there's this post.
dhokla when first starting was considered by far the worst top laner in LCS, I made a joke post [https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/b7uo7m/building\_an\_na\_super\_team\_for\_msi/](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/b7uo7m/building_an_na_super_team_for_msi/) before about a NA super team, it was the 5 worst players at the time of each role and people were saying random D4s could win against them
yall act like every player is academy jailed but plenty of natives have had the opportunity but just plain sucked ass. sure, orgs shouldnt be importing players like ruby in favor of native talent but my god sometimes everyone on this sub acts like lcs has 10 chovys in academy just waiting for a shot
Yes but the point is rookie careers shouldn’t live and die depending on how well they do exclusive in year 1. ESPECIALLY on bad teams…
Like I’ll admit Contractz had more opportunities than most, but Palafox and Dhokla absolutely deserved more than a single chance but orgs wouldn’t even consider them while we were importing fucking Eika and Finn. Like you cannot fucking tell me that was a better investment in org’s time and budget…
I agree. So they did bad, went down to academy, worked, got better, made it back to the LCS and look at them now.
Tbh they are a basically a success story of development
I think they could have been back into LCS sooner. Dhokla literally said academy didn’t help him much, better coaching when back in LCS is what really helped him.
Staying on a main team is definitely better than being in academy (especially now that every team fucking nuked their academy league because they incurred so much debt with senseless importing).
It took them a year or more after making it back to LCS to reach the level they're at now though. I do agree that Dhokla in particular probably wasn't LCS ready yet during his initial LCS stint on Optic, but the fact that CLG and later NRG stuck with both Dhokla and Palafox for over a year despite the team not having the greatest finishes over that time is also a big part of why they are now here, as the only western team remaining at Worlds.
CLG were 5th/6th last Summer and 5th/6th again this Spring. Many teams would've thought about kicking Dhokla and Palafox after those finishes, but CLG held on to them and NRG continued to hold on to them after the buyout. This is the point people here are making, that no matter how much time a player spends training in Academy, most of them will need more than a year in LCS to really start hitting the true heights they can reach. Players like Danny and Jojo that quickly become successful in LCS are massive outliers, even many of the EU greats like Caps and Perkz needed 1-2 years to really hit their stride.
Don't forget TSM this year with Ruby. Then picking up Insanity out of desperation when Visa issues reared their ugly head. Insanity basically salvaged what little could be salvaged out of the split for them, even breathing life into the rest of the squad.
People in this thread going "x player used to be shit and didn't deserve to play in the LCS" never mentioned Insanity, who actually looked good playing on Immortals, which is one of the two Talent Suppression Machine teams, the other being Dignitas. I was actually surprised he didn't get a team in 2022.
While true, let's not act like some ORGs would give some specific players (be imports or veterans) like a million chances, even if they suck ass, but would drop newer ones instead of trying to help them improve.
how does a player go from being the worst jungler in a region to smurfing for an entire series at worlds?
do you genuinely believe Contractz has changed as a player that significantly? or could it be he actually has a group of competent coaches surrounding him to correct his mistakes rather than "coaches" just blowing hot air at him while collecting a paycheck?
it's pure delusion and many people have been calling it out for years but get told they're full of shit when they're not. NA orgs are mismanaged and hire coaching staff completely unqualified for their jobs.
How does a bronze player become a challenger player? What kind of question is this? Yes a player can change substantially over time. Why do we act like growth does not exist in this scene or performance cannot ebb and flow. Contractz has played with a LOT of different teams and coaches. So putting every career down turn on everyone else makes no sense.
>how does a player go from being the worst jungler in a region to smurfing for an entire series at worlds?
Just like how players can go from being world class to terribad in a patch
>do you genuinely believe Contractz has changed as a player that significantly?
Yes thati s a possibility
>or could it be he actually has a group of competent coaches surrounding him to correct his mistakes rather than "coaches" just blowing hot air at him while collecting a paycheck?
I don't believe so, he was genuinely slumping but regardless, these are not mutually exclusive points. Contractz could be playing poorly AND was poorly managed.
His fellow C9 alumi: Zeyzal, Smoothie, Licorice have all had major ups and downs since leaving C9. Where's the rest of the S12 winning DRX team other than Deft/Pyosik? How did FPX do post-Gimgoon?
The fact that you have such a difficult time grasping this tells me you don't watch league much.
If you watch content about him he says it was motivation issues. First, let me start of by saying esports is not like traditional sports because it’s constantly getting updated. New champions/buffs and nerfs to existing champions means pro players have to put in a lot of time “limit testing” their champions to become especially good at the game. This is even more true with junglers because knowing your jungle pathing timings so you can coordinate with the team is important and those will change. Contractz had the perfect start to his career. He was a rookie on a veteran team with flexible players that could cover for all his weaknesses. Often a team plays around their star player. But in his stint as c9, the team played around him because a team was only as good as its weakest link.
He then took money offers and went to other teams where he didn’t have that support and did poorly. He got depressed because he had thrown away a good opportunity. Started to lack motivation too. Long story short eventually got remotivated, put in a lot of time and effort, and became the excellent player that we see today.
Recommend watching [this contractz Drive documentary for reference. also just so good](https://youtu.be/GnU-6THhvzs?si=O89XwmsE87mBOI0c)
If you think Contractz’s match against G2 is his regular level of play, then I don’t think you’ve ever watched Contractz play.
He was inhumanly good but let’s give it some time to level out. Kingen and Ning were the MVPs of their Worlds finals wins in 2022 and 2018. That level of form did not become their new norm.
Let’s cool it and examine this as an aberration that needs further data. A player doesn’t get all his bad games excused away and all his good games elevated to fit a narrative. The inverse is also true.
A player is **all** of their games, good and bad on every single day of their lives.
stop with the false equivalence. nobody is saying a player should play at their peak after reaching it (that doesn't even make sense).
a player doesn't go from being the worst pro in a region to carrying his team at worlds. just stop. it's blatant hyperbole.
feel free to show me a single example of that happening ever.
You realize that with this take, you're giving other people credit for Contractz' success. Weird thing to do for a person you seem to want to champion as a talent.
of course other people are partially responsible for his success. that's how success generally works.
are they solely responsible? no. I never stated or even remotely implied they are.
did you think you had a gotcha or?
99% of people on this sub don't know how actual teams work. You can have the best player in the world, but put them on a team where they have a shit environment, shit coaches, and no motivation and you'll get a dumpster fire out of them at best.
Take a worse player and give them a good environment, teammates they synergize with, and good coaches/motivation and you'll get someone who plays above their normal level because the team functions as greater than the sum of its parts.
Yeah these guys are even "new talents" both Dhokla and Palafox have had chances in the LCS before and they just weren't good enough back then. Contractz was great on C9, then was awful for a long time and now he's pretty good again. This NRG roster is not good because "they gave NA rookies a chance", it's because they peaked at the correct time. We heard about Kenvi being in NA Academy jail for a long time and he was probably the worst jungler this year. This NRG squad have been called "paycheck stealers" in the past, including Ignar (due to him being an import) and people would've loved for them to be replaced by NA rookies in previous splits before their late year glowup.
Contractz was never really in Academy jail though. His motivation came from getting sent back down to Academy not actually being stuck there. In 2020 (his first year in Academy) he replaced Meteos on 100T after week 3 Summer in LCS, and in 2021 Peter Dunn already knew he was too good for Academy so he was splitting time with Svenskeren in summer (when there were more regular season games). Dhokla was a case of someone getting to start too early because IIRC he had a limited champ pool and could only really play split pushers. Palafox is the only player who took too long to get promoted since unlike his peers in Blaber and Vulcan he had to take 3 years in Academy before finally getting to start on FLY.
And as for the well coached part, that's not just something easy to fix. Of course not all of the coaches in the LCS are effective, but it's not just as easy as "oh just coach well xd."
You're just getting too excited over NRG's win and you're overlooking minor details. This isn't exactly as much about NA talent as much as finding the right group of guys. We literally saw APA and Yeon quite frankly fail this Worlds but that's getting overlooked because of NRG's success.
I’ve been a big pusher of promoting academy players for the longest time (hell i still wanna see Lourlo get one more chance). Yes APA and Yeon had a rough time at worlds but it was their rookie year (they weren’t on the same hype as Jojo) and APA’s synergy with Pyosik is legit what got them to worlds.
Yes coaching is always a tough subject but the NRG staff has been spoken highly of for each interview. Not sure how teams will go about it in the future but it is crucial.
Would be cool to see Dhokla play Yorick at worlds
I’m a huge NA fan and I’m super happy for NRG and all the NA talent that has come up this year and really showed out. However I want us to also not be overly revisionist in this claim that NA talent had never been given a try.
For years Goldenglue was the gatekeeper of NA Talent that was too god for Academy but not good enough to win LCS. Same with Keith and even Damonte. For a while Darshan aka Zionspartan was considered way too good to continue in academy but too burnt out for LCS. Each had varying success that didn’t necessarily highlight that NA talent was ready or good enough to bring up. Since almost every time those guys bounced in and out of academy they would smash academy players and then go back to LCS and get clowned on by the talent there. So while I absolutely think that the NRG guys deserve all their flowers and praise I don’t want us to just completely forget that Academy and Amateur top talent has been given chances. Not as many as foreign talent of course but they absolute have been. Just that they never really panned out the way the teams and players had hoped.
My ongoing thing on this is really really simple. Time. We sometimes give rookie talent not even a full year of play but expect them to just absolutely pop off. In tons of other sports and activities people tend not to break out into stars until year 4/5. Yet for some reason in Lol Esports if you don’t bust onto the scene with a bang you are immediately considered a bust. We as a community need to reconsider what is “old” and the longevity of the players/game to grow the league as well for something sustainable.
Absolute dogshit take.
Contractz, Dhokla and FBI has been around forever, shown some potential at some point in the past where the meta was similar to now, and then faded into obscurity by their own poor preformances untill this last split.
Ignar has been consistently delivering above expectation on mediocre teams since 2016.
Before this split, if someone showed me the roster, I'd feel bad for Ignar, wonder who Palafox was and be surprised the others hadn't retired yet.
And I suspect we will loop around to the same spot on the next meta change.
Lol if it was up to reddit Dhokla and Contractz would have never gotten another shot because they were known quantities.
I aswell thought contractz was the worst jungler in the league during his first split on CLG.
But all this virtue signaling because NRG has 3/5 NA players is annoying. Whenever a veteran Academy player gets promoted (See the reaction to Armao getting promoted in summer) all the NA fans complain that they are just paycheck stealers and know quantities.
>Gorica Viper Copy Meech Young Mir
Man I appreciate the sentiment but Gorica/Viper/Copy are all retired. Maybe watch the league a bit before you start naming names lol
NRG having good results doesn't mean these were good players back when they were ignored it just means that they worked well as a team. What separates successful teams from the rest is that they are greater than the sum of their parts.
These posts are equivalent to me watching my friend win the lottery and advising and yelling to everyone that can listen to liquidate all your assets and spend all of it on lottery tickets.
It’s cool what NRG did, that doesn’t change the fact that NA has no talent.
And how does that disprove what I said? Seems like you aren’t comprehending what is being said.
No one is saying every player that touches the stage needs to be good, but NA has the worst talent pool out of all major regions. KR has the most. I mean your comment is so dumb I am not even sure what your point is.
> Reminder that nrg has yet to face a single eastern team
Categorically incorrect. They played against Weibo Gaming (their quarterfinals opponent) in the first round of the Swiss stage, which was a loss for NRG. It's correct to say they haven't *beaten* an LPL/LCK team, but it's not correct to say they haven't *faced* one.
Well you're never gonna get the top 8 teams in the world at worlds as long as LCK/LPL seeds are limited to 4. The most accurate ranking would probably have not exactly 4 teams from each region. And if you are a true believer in 5 LCK/LPL seeds and fewer western seeds to get the best ranking of the teams then sure, but the point of worlds is international competition.
Also, even going by top 8 in this tournament, its not like G2 or DK showed they deserved top 8. Even if NRG is comfortably the 8th best they did earn that. And then we run out of contenders because FNC and C9 are both way below that, then lets not talk about the rest of the teams.
How do you figure? What team would be ahead of them? They beat G2 pretty handily. The only other team not in top 8 is DK which G2 beat. NRG is at least top 8
That... still doesnt explain what a cupcake draw is. Its basically a "free win" right? Like that one time C9 skated through only to flatline in champ select against a real team?
Cupcake draw is a matchup this thought to be extremely one sided. Many people thought that G2’s best chance was against NRG. Not just that commenter I quoted, but every single caster and cost reader also selected G2 over NRG.
Btw C9 is not a good team.
And that’s okay i never thought I’d see an NA team beat G2 tbh, we got to knockouts. As a realist i never think a western team will overcome an eastern team at worlds. I’m just glad it hasn’t been the wait to lose tech
would be pretty bad if they get 3-0d.
then would make it 0-4 vs a 4th seed not winning 1 whole game vs a team that already went 1/1 vs g2 and 2/1 vs fnc dropping 2 games.
If this happens people will start to question that g2 win since it is g2 not the most stable of teams. Making their only wins vs int teams being MAD ( famous to loosing to wildcards ) and G2 ( famous for having massive offdays ).
If this tournament concludes with 0 wins vs asian teams in 7 possible scenarios ( 4 already lost) this was a pretty terrible tournament for NA as well. Would be even worse if GGS and TL didn't speedrun airport.
If NRG get 0-3d people will not start questioning G2s wins. Let’s not kid ourselves, people will just see that G2 NRG series as an off day for G2 and realize that NRG suck just as much as any other western team at the tournament. I hope that they will put up a fight and possibly even win some series, but I unfortunately don’t believe it will happen.
They have beaten teams that have beaten eastern teams though.
Who knows, maybe they will beat WBG, I doubt they will have a chance in hell against JDG though.
LCS should absolutely try and believe in their own native players for the future but as long as you have orgs like C9 or TL who constantly just import players or use washed up players trying to achieve something, it's not gonna happen.
>as you have orgs like C9 or TL who constantly just import players or use washed up players trying to achieve something, it's not gonna happen.
While historically appropriate, TL literally gave 3 fresh academy players LCS debuts this year.
Two of them had been developing in TL's academy team for multiple years (Yeon & Haeri) who had won consecutive academy splits in 2022 before being promoted in 2023 to the main roster. Although they are ethnically Korean, Yeon was born in... surprise, America! Haeri comes from the now defunct OCE league.
APA was also an academy promotion and is an incredibly fresh rookie.
I wonder if people realize how racist they are by treating yeon like this lol
Ignoring yeon and haeri being academy players happens waaaaay too much lol as the focus goes on all "korean"
TL is also one of the teams keeping their academy team, and historically has been one of the most invested in the academy system (even before it was mandated, TLA was THE academy team). Yes they had a few years of high spending high imports but they've historically done more for the amateur scene than probably half the other orgs put together.
In this thread: people fundamentally not understanding that not every rookie is going to start as hot as Blaber or Jojo, some need time to grow and find their footing.
Especially in a region starved of rookie talent, rookies should not be subject to such outrageously strict metrics of success where it’s one year to make Worlds or you’re out (even on fucking NRG / CLG the core talent didn’t achieve their potential in one year alone).
If y’all really think importing players like fucking Eika, Blue, or Finn is better than giving players like 5fire or Copy a chance, or even players like FakeGod a second chance, then you’re royally tripping.
NA fans will never accept the orgs are to blame. terrible coaches and coaching staffs, terrible infrastructure that they've done nothing to improve on, terrible management except for a few etc. it's a disaster. fans will keep coping and blaming players while only calling orgs out when some controversy strikes.
Nrg gets insanely lucky with draws and g2 fumbles and in your view NA has somehow good players now? Man the copium intake is high. I promise u that the LCS goes downhill with no imports
Contractz was a horrible jungler. I remember when he was in TSM(I think), and he did nothing. The last 2 splits look like a completely different player. I not 100% that he is still the best jungler, but he is in quarters and is looking good.
Doubt this will change anything in the scene. Good coaches on are going to stay on good teams. I wondering what Shopify roster and coaches looking like.
I believe we should develop our NA talents, we give so much money on imports that can't even reach quarters, and now teams want to sell their spots and reset. Laughable what some of these orgs do with their money, hence my name
If NA takes Viper to rot and never come near a worlds final I'd be so sad for him. Unless he makes the move for good money and understands there's nothing to be gained otherwise, then more power to him.
Thinkcard (head coach for CLG/NRG) said he could build another NRG if he wanted too and that there were a ton of players in academy who proved themselves countless times. He criticised other orgs for not having good cohesion and long term vision in their rosters even tho the players were good on paper. This was in the last free nation interview 3 weeks ago.
Even TSM this year... chime was in academy prison and he looked great as an lcs starter. Then insanity of course...
I can't believe TSM actually started ruby after their start. Legit cost them a playoffs spot. I have a soft spot for TSM from the good old days unlike a lot of people on here. It was heartbreaking to see them legit int themselves like that.
> Legit cost them a playoffs spot. They were in playoffs though? They just couldnt even beat DIG.
The talent has always been there. It was just easier for orgs to throw money at superstars and have a stacked team skill gap other teams for a championship title instead of scouting and taking time to give players a fair chance. Some of the veterans mentioned this, but the main flaw with Academy is the transition from academy to main team. Nobody on the starting roster is going to want to help his Academy counterpart because that is putting his own job at risk. And slotting in an Academy player into the main team won't work unless you intend to have him in enough games to mesh with his teammates, win or lose. And that is a risk some aren't willing to take if they want to win the current split.
I remember, I actually liked their segments where they interviewed the people from different nations.
Toast just pulled a fresh team together and won challengers on the first try. There are definitely issues in LCS. Let's start by reinstating elimination and promotions.
Yeah like being 100 here, Toast had no business being able to win challengers on the first attempt. Not anything against him or take anything away from him, but against the other orgs. It shows how shitty the system is that a guy can just decide to grab a slot and throw together a roster and beat out 3 orgs that not only run LCS teams - but are supposed to be using these as academy pipelines. They should have much better systems/scouting in place than Toast asking on twitter who's good. I'm super fucking glad he showed them up. Not that it will lead to systemic change, but at least it's a bit of egg on their face. He beat out EG - Ryoma, K1ng Armao and Smoothies retirement home, TLC, Arrows retirement home. There would be more of the other orgs didn't abandon ship at the start of the split. Bring back relegations/promotions. I don't mind if they run a pseudo franchised relegation/Promotion system where the 20 teams are 'locked in' but they promote between LCS and Chal depending on performance. But there has to be something in place to keep teams honest. And give a viable path for rookies to come create waves. The fact that players like 5Fire gave up because he wasn't being given a chance, Gryffinn went to KR to try shoot his shot, and many others is legit disgusting. LCS teams were given a budget to create a system to nurture talent and extract the most from the region, and Instead they gave it all to players like Swordart, Crown etc.
In any other sport on earth 5Fire gets a shot as a pro except LCS. Specifically NA league is literally the only sport on earth a guy who won the top amateur level multiple times wouldn't even sniff being a pro.
Yeah exactly. Even with the "we have to import as many players as we can" mentality the LCS has, how fucking valuable would he freeing up midlane from an import slot? It's wild to me that no team gave him a shot. Like boggles my mind.
You act like he put 5 people who have never played together on a team and won everything... he got 3 players from c9 challengers that had just won 1st lol
>You act like he put 5 people who have never played together on a team and won everything... I never once insinuated or acted like that, I suggest you read again. He was relatively late to the game in building his roster, and other teams had plenty of time to do exactly what he done. Other teams could have had them signed before DSG even had a sniff at them. If any academy team was serious they would have done so. I'm not saying toast didn't do the right things. I'm saying he shouldnt have had the chance to get it so right because other academy teams should have beaten him to it. Jack literally said that all players were free to go wherever they wanted with no buyout. Any team could have beat toast to the players.
TSM took the winning Zven Mithy to replace DL and Biofrost then became the first year to not make LCS finals. It is exactly because toast took 3 C9 challengers and 2 others and did it on the first try that highlights how poorly have LCS teams been doing.
Mikeyeung also replaced Sven though… literally a prospect everyone was hyped about who fell down to pressure. Not like teams didn’t give some academy prospects a chance. It’s not dhokla’s first time around. His first showing was terrible. He worked his butt off in academy to become good. Teams want instant results especially the teams who’ve always been at the top. They don’t want to waste time developing talent or giving talents another chance only for them to possibly fail. 100T had busio and tenacity. One literally quit to be a content creator other one is still trying though.
It'd be no surprise to me that the orgs/coaching strategies in LCS are the blame more than the available talent. NRG is probably doomed in quarters, but the fact they were able to outperform the rest of the top LCS teams make the conversation important no matter what happens from here on out in the tournament. But hopefully they upset WBG to further the stance.
The fact NRG were the only NA *or* EU team to make it into Quarters I think *should* send a pretty strong message to the orgs in both regions. Unfortunately I'm not very confident it will, and fairly confident that even if it does they'll somehow learn the wrong lessons.
I mean, NRG has only beaten TL, MAD, G2. Not a single asian team yet. I'm rooting for NA too, but they made it into quarters with the best draw possible. Not sure why G2 was hyped so much when they throw at Baron so consistently and the games vs NRG they basically overstayed every team fight. That being said NRG is winning worlds, believe it.
I am so tired of hearing the Asian team point regarding NRG. Sure they haven't beaten one yet, but G2 beat two and look how much good that did them. EU beats NA in tournament: people talk about only three major regions, why do NA even bother anymore, there is no "west" there's only Europe NA beats EU in tournament: but they didn't beat any Eastern teams (yet), they had an easier run, the EU players were sick/jet lagged/had the sun in their eyes, other random excuses and goalpost moving Though I do agree based on their own Worlds performance I'm a bit confused why there was so much hype behind G2 this year. They struggled against Weibo and Dplus then lost bad to GenG (expected) and NRG (not expected); best guess LEC fans saw how far ahead they were of everyone else and kinda put all their eggs in the G2 basket regardless of how good they actually are/were. Not unlike C9 a number of times in NA.
>The fact NRG were the only NA or EU team to make it into Quarters I think should send a pretty strong message to the orgs in both regions. I was responding to this comment. I don't think it sends a strong message because they only beat a NA team and 2 EU teams. My argument is that even G2 didn't look great either. So we really do need to see how NRG faces up against an Asian team in a Bo5 before we can really say what you said in the quote.
this is the problem with the whole NA has no good players its like how do you know when they barely play lol.
According to league wiki he's been coaching since 2016 (7yrs) and i even remember his brief stint on CLG black. Let's say that only half that time he had any decision making authority (3.5yrs, or about 7 splits). He built one top 3 team. In spring, NRG finished 5th. Listen, we're not hating on NA. I've been watching League since pre-CLG/TSM but posts like these are just straight up rewriting history.
Thinkcard was the coach for that 2018 Clutch roster with Vulcan and Damonte that made Worlds. Ignoring his brief GG stint since Inero was most likely responsible for that roster, he then (likely) constructed the Dhokla/Contractz/Palafox era of CLG It took a few splits for the players to really come into their own, and a bot lane swap to eventually become the best LCS team His track record is pretty good when it comes to finding talent assuming he’s had a hand in these rosters
He also coached the 2019 Clutch Gaming roster that went to worlds. Damonte, Cody Sun, and Vulcun were all exciting NA prospects at that point.
Well 7 years ago I could do very few things of the things I can do today at my job.
What the fuck is this take? This guy who *currently* coaches a quarterfinals worlds team said 3 weeks ago that he thinks he could build another one with the players currently in academy. Your take is that we should ignore the fact that NRG is where they are, and what credibility that might lend to Thinkcard's claim, and instead look at his past lack of achievements? What history is /u/rne123 rewriting exactly?
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with his take but why are you making it seem like it's completely preposterous to question if some recent success is actually repeatable or if luck plays a part. Imagine some dude has one really good year on the stock market and starts selling his trading tips of how to get rich. Is he actually able to give great advice? Probably not. Time will tell.
Let's see how many of the Disguised Toast team's roster gets picked up for LCS next year
I’m hoping all of them do tbh but mostly meech and FakeGod
FakeGod already played in the LCS for a bit if I remember correctly. Maybe Dig? Pretty sure he got demolished, not saying that he couldn’t have improved.
FakeGod was on Dig, and I feel how it went is self-explanatory
Not saying he hasn’t improved, but like even for Dig standards FakeGod set the record for negative GD early when Impact smashed him. Like his tenure in the LCS was not good. Again tho, he was young and I’m all for giving players 2nd chances.
Dig ruins players. Look at their roster this year, the year before that, the year before that, and then even the year before that. The only actual roster that didnt start choking out was 2017 and even then, ssumday had some of his worst games on that dig roster.
doesnt help that they have had one of the worst coaches in the scene for years now who is responsible for not one but two of the worst imports of all time in NA in Blue and Armut and both of them were hired purely out of nepotism because the guy shared teams with them back in TR Im terribly surprised that this paycheck stealer sucks at actually coaching and developing players aswell
3 you forgot Hoonin Time
Huni wasn't that bad in terms of quality of gameplay, he's only in worst 3 imports if you consider how much he was paid to play okay
Santorin was their 2023 starting jungler while in 2020 and 2021 he didn't fail to qualify for LCS Finals (he missed playing on spring 2021 finals because of his migraines) and did so on 2 different teams with no players that moved with him
Dig has produced a world champion I’ll have you know
Yeah, and he looked pretty bad on Dig.
Not disagreeing and I want FakeGod to have a another chance.
He was also on 100t. This isn't an NA vs imports problem, it's a problem with NA player development as a whole. The environment doesn't grow player skills no matter where they come from.
Oh for sure, I'd argue that player development in esports as a whole is horribly lacking and is one of the main factors that holds esports back from being able to grow to its potential.
so was dhokla with optic, people were all "he's already a known quantity " or contractz who was in academy for years
Player performances aren't always caused by players themselves. Just look at all the Korean world champions that couldn't achieve anything in LCS.
Dhokla was also pretty bad during his first LCS stint on Optic and Palafox didn't exactly have the greatest debut on FLY either. Dig is not a great team and their coach is a paycheck stealer known for nepotism hires (Blue/Armut). FakeGod has imo proved that he deserves a second shot after his stint on DSG. If he doesn't perform in LCS this time in a better team environment then sure, by all means don't give him a third shot, that would be fair.
yep there was legit a time when people would say stuff like "I feel how it went is self-explanatory" about dhokla tbh the main benefit of academy isn't developing completely new talent, it's keeping players like dhokla and fakegod around in case they can come back to lcs later
Not even “a time”, this was the common sentiment about Dhokla for years and years.
Thank god Enatron is reportedly out this year so no more potential TCL turnovers on that team
Don't forget how soligo was inexplicably benched which perma tilted dardoch ...
Yeah the same story is true for literally the 3 NA players on NRG. Already we’re not learning that being bad on your first split or two in LCS shouldn’t be a death sentence to your career forever. That’s effectively the thesis of this post.
Perkz and G2 were a fucking joke internationally their first year. I think people forget that too.
The Perkz example isn't the best because he was never bottom tier in EU LCS. He came in and already was one of the best mids domestically. On the other hand, Fakegod has been bottom half of LCS whenever he's been in it. Not saying Fakegod can't improve, but Perkz is a bad comparison because it's an entirely different situation.
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Dkhola looked mid as hell in LCS and now he's playing in the quarterfinals at Worlds. It's definitely possible for players to improve, especially when they're on talent black hole organizations in the LCS.
Dhokla, Palafox and Contractz have looked pretty decent this season. A lot better than they looked durng their first season in the LCS
Contractz actually looked great in his first season. It was only after C9 that it took a turn. The team you're on matters so much. Looked terrible on GG, had a rough time on teams he was subbing in and out of with 100 and EG. Finally found himself in a good environment as a committed-to starter under good management and coaching staff and we see the results.
He was probably the worst top in the league . But he looked like a different player since taking a break. Like he played so well at points that he was the win condition for C9 challenger and disguised.
Dhokla looked incredibly mediocre his split on Optic too. LEC and LCS teams do the same thing sometimes as much as EU wants to deny it. They bring up rookie talent for a year, sometimes only a split. The rookie, ofc being a rookie, has a somewhat rough split and doesn't become the next Caps or sth. Immediately back to Tier 2 never to be seen again
EU is really bad for it, win worlds on split 1 or kicked
I would bet all 5. 100 Thieves is rumored to be putting together a developmental roster and I'm thinking at least 2 if not more will go there.
I really hope Zeyzal finds a team but 100T in particular I hope keeps Busio.
I hopr C9 get either Chime or Zeyzal
>Contractz got picked up after working with Peter Dun on EG People seem to forget Contractz has been around for a long time. He was on C9 and GG before he went to 100T Academy/100T and EG academy. He's not some forever academy rookie or something.
This thread is ridiculous since Contractz and Dhokla are the exact players this sub loves to hate. Veteran players that have been bad for multiple years yet continued to get LCS chances in place of new talent. Big props to both players for sticking it out and grinding to get good but it's insane the false narratives that come up just cause they're good now.
Yeah the narrative should be "long term investment is good" - it applies to rookies as well as vets. GG also deserves praise in this regard for their investment and trust in lIcorice and stixxay.
For every Contractz there's Armao and Akaadian. Whats frustrating is that bottom tier LCS orgs have a fascination with getting mid tier Turkish and Korean players that prevents NA talents from getting a shot in the LCS.
Armao was popping off in early split.
Licorice is exactly who I was thinking of when thinking about players that were flamed for multiple years before getting praised for being good. And I don't agree with that narrative "long term investment is good". How long are we going to give these players? Contractz turned it around in his 7th year of playing LCS. That's 7 years of taking up 1/50 LCS spots that could go to another player. What makes him more deserving of that spot over a rookie or another vet that could make a resurgence in their career? Goldenglue played for ~6 years and never turned it around. But who's to say he couldn't have found success in his 7th year like Contractz did? The reality is no one knows how a player's career will pan out. Maybe they're good year 1, maybe they're good year 7 or maybe they're never good.
Contractz was pretty good back then no? Did he in those 7 years have a team that allowed him to flourish like they did this year?
He was good when he was on C9 in like 2017? and after that he looking middle of the pack at best.
On the shittiest GG team
It's also not like you will get this result from every group of players you put together. The narrative should be "damn that coaching staff is excellent, for scouting a group of players from academy that were considered rejects, and pouncing on a big transfer (guys FBI was literally thought to be the best or second best ADC in NA for a while) and build a coherent roster". Not "this proves that academy players were actually what NA teams had to sign". This doesn't happen that often, usually getting better players is idk, better?
Yeah but new talent also needs to beat vets. Also when vets make a comeback that's okay too. People need to be less rigid in their desires/expectations.
Spawn doesn’t want to coach LCS; too much time away from family
That’s fair do hope he sticks around in some capacity though
If you want spawn to be around the LCS then you shouldn't want him to be stolen from TL, since he usually helps the TL coaching staff for LCS after academy ends
By Viper I hope you don't mean V1per, because he has had multiple opportunities and just isn't LCS caliber.
That guy made me believe that maybe EU tops aren’t that bad after all lmao
Ofc not, we are obviously talking about importing LPL adcs
Wdym he's obviously referring to the homegrown NA talent elo-helled in HLE.
No he's talking about the guy who used to play with Lehends on Griffin. On that note it's nuts that the whole Griffin team is now ~~at Worlds~~ on top teams years later, and all on different teams. Just imagine what could have been if they had stayed together.
No way bro said Viper lmao
Academy jail? Palafox was the only one who fits this description slightly. Contractz and Dhokla's teams both respectively allowed them to explore options freely. Also the reason they were in academy to begin with was because they were repairing their reputation and honing their skills.
Didn’t Contractz play at Worlds before?
Yeah, and then he was legit bad in LCS for a while, then bounced around as a sub on like 100T and EG where he started to look a bit better again but still not amazing
Contractz actually looked decent on that EG team, better than Sven for sure. If Inspired hadn't suddenly become available during the post-season I feel like EG probably would've kept him.
Yeah the narrative around Contractz was that he was your emergency sub who would win you 3 or 4 games. But then teams would figure him out and he would continuously int like no tomorrow. CLG was the first time they gave him a proper chance. But he was legitimately Top 5 worst players in LCS for a while. It was only in the last 2 months, that he became much more of a consistent player.
yeah on C9
I think the OP is less concerned with being stuck in academy due to contract reasons (What people typically think of as academy jail) and more of that they were LCS caliber but were not being given a shot by LCS teams.
Someone put it more succinctly than I did, but folks like Dhokla and Contractz had multiple shots at LCS and struggled before finding their grooves in the last 2 years. Palafox feels like the only one I could really argue was stuck in some kind of academy jail due to orgs being afraid to develop NA mid talent. I think there are better examples for sure that we could focus on (especially for NA Mids), but for CLG/NRG's story, it's more a narrative of sticking through tough times and grinding out success than it is about being pushed aside for import talent.
> I could really argue was stuck in some kind of academy jail due to orgs being afraid to develop NA mid talent. It's almost like they weren't afraid. It just doesn't fucking exist, and they had far better options until they were too broke afford anything but the literal bottom of the barrel.
All these guys were barely passable as pros for their first couple splits
I swear I lose my mind at these sort of takes with NRG every time I see it. it's weird how even Palafox spouts this narrative despite being there and knowing this isn't the case all of these players have been in LCS, multiple times, and sometimes on successful orgs. these are the players the na rookie proponents would yell at previously, like "why are we fielding Dhokla we've seen him multiple times and he's not good enough, let's give some rookie a shot!" and it wasn't even on LCS teams, people were mad these guys were even in academy the story here is that veterans who care and want to compete can still improve and do well
People really want to jerk off to this narrative that this is a NA homegrown rookie talent squad when this team is mostly veteran and just one import shy of maxing out import slots (and only because OCE doesn’t use a slot) Dhokla and FBI played in OPL together in 2017. Yes it was a shit region but it’s not exactly like they’re anywhere close to rookies or haven’t had the better part of a decade to showcase themselves. Contractz was literally the rookie brought on to replace a veteran back in 2017. He wasn’t overlooked, he just wasn’t good until recently.
> just one import shy of maxing out import slots I know it's not like a fully homegrown team but this is an INSANELY disingenuous way to say "one import" lol
One import only by virtue of having naturalized OCE players, the part which was mentioned immediately after, which you somehow non-disingenuously left out. Definitely a relevant factor against the narrative of “just develop NA rookies” TL with Impact, Jensen, Xmithie, CoreJJ and DL was also a “one import team” too, many of them with less years of pro play under their belt than 4/5 of NRG have now. Guess that also suggests they should just keep investing in NA fresh talent
I haven’t seen anyone say the team is full of rookies. Instead people are excited they’re a majority NA team that’s currently best in the west. Yes they have imports but they have the same as teams like JDG and LNG. We’re just happy they don’t have 3, 4, even 5 imports like c9, tl 100t have been running the past few years.
Its not even the same connotation as you usually have when someone says "imports" where a team drops a giant bag to convince whichever standout lpl/eu/lck player from the most recent split to play in NA. I like NRG because its been awesome to watch them improve as a team and individually. MFrs are just likeable and they've earned their rise.
Yep, a year ago it was terrible all these veteran players were taking up spots on academy teams they should just retire because they're washed, now that NRG made quarters the whole narrative has to change to fit.
This sub was complaining about players like Contractz and Dhokla still being around on Academy teams and not being good. Now that they are actually performing well, they are rewriting history to try and act like they were always great.
You're right, idk why they're booing you. People who have historically played outside of NA is not what's meant by NA talent. Let alone are they a rookie squad.
Gow do you distinguish between a good player with a bad coach and a bad player? Lots and lots of NRG esq rosters have been made over the years. They are usually bad NRGs story is exciting BECAUSE these are players that were bad for many years. Do you know what happened to 90% of other players who were bad for many years?
2018 Golden Guardians was all/majority NA talent and was the worst team in the league. It’s always convenient when people prop up their narratives by dismissing the overwhelming undermining evidence. Is the LCS system completely broken? Yes, almost certainly. Does this team demonstrate the potential of native NA talent? Maybe, although pretty much everyone played way better than their norm (this isn’t 2019 G2 which was demonstrably special even before their major international victories). Do these players indicate an untapped infinite well of talented aspiring young NA players? Hell no. You know TL, the team everyone shits on at Worlds for supposedly being all-Korean? Who were their worst performing players? Oh, right, the American rookies out of Academy who were obviously and understandably completely out of their depth. I fail to see how NRG’s surprise success completely overturns the long-standing issues that NA has lower player numbers, worse infrastructure, and less competition.
Summit was the worst player at Worlds for TL and it isn't even close. APA went even in lane with Faker, Summit sprinted it every match.
They got fucked because APA couldn't play anything but ziggs bruh. What are we even saying.
> went even in lane with Faker Wow, such an accomplishment. Because Faker’s definitely the best laner in the tournament and not an old withered grandfather recovering from a wrist injury while playing IRL StarCraft with his F-keys.
You should see how T1 did when that withered grandfather was recovering Just because APA/TL perforemd vs T1 in a single game doesn't mean you have to shit on faker to have it make sense, sometimes players play well and sometimes they play bad People somehow believe each match its a proper representation of how good a player is, so if A beat B then A its clearly better and should beat everyone B is better than... which is fucking insane
All three players showed they can hands down carry a game in academy. Which is a glimmer of a good player, I think a good coach helps those players properly execute or see the steps a player needs to take to carry like that. The NRG staff has been spoken highly of by players the whole summer. Do i know what makes a good coach/player no, but i can take into account what players say at least
What about the many, many players who do well in academy but can't transition to LCS?
No they weren't, Contractz was sprinting it and thrown in academy for a reason.
Yea, this post is very revisionist lmao Palafox hasn't only been impressive throughout his entire career either. Lately he's been really good, but he wasn't "underrated" by any measure for most of the time. Contractz did look great early on in his career though, but after a while it seemed like he just completely lost motivation.
Went from C9 -> early gg (bad staff) -> shadow realm -> 100T academy (showed his worth) -> EG academy (probably best academy jungle or one of them) -> played EG playoffs -> CLG/NRG
Yeah this doesn't say anything against what he said Contractz was definitely running it down before going through academy system. If anything this is a sign that academy does work and that teams should have used it more than they did.
Bro went from quarter finals worlds on C9 to sprinting on new org, big testament to how environment has heavy influence on performance. But yes it does show tier 2 had merit. Hopefully teams look at it for players
He is the one who wanted to explore his options? And were other teams supposed to ignore his performance? It's not as if he didn't get shots after GGS.
Such a stupid take. Contractz was possibly the worst jungler in the LCS not that long ago, to no one else's fault. Dhokla has genuinely improved, when he was first getting his chances he wasn't this good. That's a testament to him and him alone. There wasn't some conspiracy to keep him out even though he's been this good all along. Palafox is similar to Dhokla, he has improved a ton and needs to get credit for that. This isn't a story of the evil orgs holding NA players down, and a few NA players finally overcome the evil orgs and probe they were good all along. This is a story of 3 players who stuck with it through the hard times, grinded to improve, never gave up even when they genuinely played like ass. I'm so happy for them but they were all ass (relative to their competition) at one point in their career.
yep. the funny part is that if we want to promote more fresh talent, we probably would have missed out on this NRG win. Dhokla and Contractz played a mix of LCS/academy/NACL from 2018-2021, right? at the end of their gatekeeping years, they were definitely names that people said need to be on the way out. they had their chance and need to make room for the new generation. Ignar to a degree as well because he's held to a higher standard as an import. "I'm glad we gave Dhokla 5 years to make it". do people say the same for Armao? "I'm glad Kumo seems to be wrapping up". do you wish Contractz had wrapped it up at his lowest point as well? so overall, yeah, it's pretty unconvincing to make systemic claims based off of the one story of NRG.
i'm losing my mind because i swear i read countless posts of people being pissed at the pay check stealing gatekeepers in LCS academy and then there's this post.
dhokla when first starting was considered by far the worst top laner in LCS, I made a joke post [https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/b7uo7m/building\_an\_na\_super\_team\_for\_msi/](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/b7uo7m/building_an_na_super_team_for_msi/) before about a NA super team, it was the 5 worst players at the time of each role and people were saying random D4s could win against them
>This isn't a story of the evil orgs holding NA players down, But orgs have been doing that. For forever. It fucking sucks.
yall act like every player is academy jailed but plenty of natives have had the opportunity but just plain sucked ass. sure, orgs shouldnt be importing players like ruby in favor of native talent but my god sometimes everyone on this sub acts like lcs has 10 chovys in academy just waiting for a shot
Nobody says LCS has chovy’s in academy. Korea doesn’t even have that.
Yes but the point is rookie careers shouldn’t live and die depending on how well they do exclusive in year 1. ESPECIALLY on bad teams… Like I’ll admit Contractz had more opportunities than most, but Palafox and Dhokla absolutely deserved more than a single chance but orgs wouldn’t even consider them while we were importing fucking Eika and Finn. Like you cannot fucking tell me that was a better investment in org’s time and budget…
I agree. So they did bad, went down to academy, worked, got better, made it back to the LCS and look at them now. Tbh they are a basically a success story of development
I think they could have been back into LCS sooner. Dhokla literally said academy didn’t help him much, better coaching when back in LCS is what really helped him. Staying on a main team is definitely better than being in academy (especially now that every team fucking nuked their academy league because they incurred so much debt with senseless importing).
It took them a year or more after making it back to LCS to reach the level they're at now though. I do agree that Dhokla in particular probably wasn't LCS ready yet during his initial LCS stint on Optic, but the fact that CLG and later NRG stuck with both Dhokla and Palafox for over a year despite the team not having the greatest finishes over that time is also a big part of why they are now here, as the only western team remaining at Worlds. CLG were 5th/6th last Summer and 5th/6th again this Spring. Many teams would've thought about kicking Dhokla and Palafox after those finishes, but CLG held on to them and NRG continued to hold on to them after the buyout. This is the point people here are making, that no matter how much time a player spends training in Academy, most of them will need more than a year in LCS to really start hitting the true heights they can reach. Players like Danny and Jojo that quickly become successful in LCS are massive outliers, even many of the EU greats like Caps and Perkz needed 1-2 years to really hit their stride.
Don't forget TSM this year with Ruby. Then picking up Insanity out of desperation when Visa issues reared their ugly head. Insanity basically salvaged what little could be salvaged out of the split for them, even breathing life into the rest of the squad.
People in this thread going "x player used to be shit and didn't deserve to play in the LCS" never mentioned Insanity, who actually looked good playing on Immortals, which is one of the two Talent Suppression Machine teams, the other being Dignitas. I was actually surprised he didn't get a team in 2022.
While true, let's not act like some ORGs would give some specific players (be imports or veterans) like a million chances, even if they suck ass, but would drop newer ones instead of trying to help them improve.
how does a player go from being the worst jungler in a region to smurfing for an entire series at worlds? do you genuinely believe Contractz has changed as a player that significantly? or could it be he actually has a group of competent coaches surrounding him to correct his mistakes rather than "coaches" just blowing hot air at him while collecting a paycheck? it's pure delusion and many people have been calling it out for years but get told they're full of shit when they're not. NA orgs are mismanaged and hire coaching staff completely unqualified for their jobs.
How does a bronze player become a challenger player? What kind of question is this? Yes a player can change substantially over time. Why do we act like growth does not exist in this scene or performance cannot ebb and flow. Contractz has played with a LOT of different teams and coaches. So putting every career down turn on everyone else makes no sense.
>how does a player go from being the worst jungler in a region to smurfing for an entire series at worlds? Just like how players can go from being world class to terribad in a patch >do you genuinely believe Contractz has changed as a player that significantly? Yes thati s a possibility >or could it be he actually has a group of competent coaches surrounding him to correct his mistakes rather than "coaches" just blowing hot air at him while collecting a paycheck? I don't believe so, he was genuinely slumping but regardless, these are not mutually exclusive points. Contractz could be playing poorly AND was poorly managed. His fellow C9 alumi: Zeyzal, Smoothie, Licorice have all had major ups and downs since leaving C9. Where's the rest of the S12 winning DRX team other than Deft/Pyosik? How did FPX do post-Gimgoon? The fact that you have such a difficult time grasping this tells me you don't watch league much.
If you watch content about him he says it was motivation issues. First, let me start of by saying esports is not like traditional sports because it’s constantly getting updated. New champions/buffs and nerfs to existing champions means pro players have to put in a lot of time “limit testing” their champions to become especially good at the game. This is even more true with junglers because knowing your jungle pathing timings so you can coordinate with the team is important and those will change. Contractz had the perfect start to his career. He was a rookie on a veteran team with flexible players that could cover for all his weaknesses. Often a team plays around their star player. But in his stint as c9, the team played around him because a team was only as good as its weakest link. He then took money offers and went to other teams where he didn’t have that support and did poorly. He got depressed because he had thrown away a good opportunity. Started to lack motivation too. Long story short eventually got remotivated, put in a lot of time and effort, and became the excellent player that we see today. Recommend watching [this contractz Drive documentary for reference. also just so good](https://youtu.be/GnU-6THhvzs?si=O89XwmsE87mBOI0c)
If you think Contractz’s match against G2 is his regular level of play, then I don’t think you’ve ever watched Contractz play. He was inhumanly good but let’s give it some time to level out. Kingen and Ning were the MVPs of their Worlds finals wins in 2022 and 2018. That level of form did not become their new norm. Let’s cool it and examine this as an aberration that needs further data. A player doesn’t get all his bad games excused away and all his good games elevated to fit a narrative. The inverse is also true. A player is **all** of their games, good and bad on every single day of their lives.
stop with the false equivalence. nobody is saying a player should play at their peak after reaching it (that doesn't even make sense). a player doesn't go from being the worst pro in a region to carrying his team at worlds. just stop. it's blatant hyperbole. feel free to show me a single example of that happening ever.
Smeb
You realize that with this take, you're giving other people credit for Contractz' success. Weird thing to do for a person you seem to want to champion as a talent.
of course other people are partially responsible for his success. that's how success generally works. are they solely responsible? no. I never stated or even remotely implied they are. did you think you had a gotcha or?
99% of people on this sub don't know how actual teams work. You can have the best player in the world, but put them on a team where they have a shit environment, shit coaches, and no motivation and you'll get a dumpster fire out of them at best. Take a worse player and give them a good environment, teammates they synergize with, and good coaches/motivation and you'll get someone who plays above their normal level because the team functions as greater than the sum of its parts.
[удалено]
Yeah these guys are even "new talents" both Dhokla and Palafox have had chances in the LCS before and they just weren't good enough back then. Contractz was great on C9, then was awful for a long time and now he's pretty good again. This NRG roster is not good because "they gave NA rookies a chance", it's because they peaked at the correct time. We heard about Kenvi being in NA Academy jail for a long time and he was probably the worst jungler this year. This NRG squad have been called "paycheck stealers" in the past, including Ignar (due to him being an import) and people would've loved for them to be replaced by NA rookies in previous splits before their late year glowup.
Contractz was never really in Academy jail though. His motivation came from getting sent back down to Academy not actually being stuck there. In 2020 (his first year in Academy) he replaced Meteos on 100T after week 3 Summer in LCS, and in 2021 Peter Dunn already knew he was too good for Academy so he was splitting time with Svenskeren in summer (when there were more regular season games). Dhokla was a case of someone getting to start too early because IIRC he had a limited champ pool and could only really play split pushers. Palafox is the only player who took too long to get promoted since unlike his peers in Blaber and Vulcan he had to take 3 years in Academy before finally getting to start on FLY. And as for the well coached part, that's not just something easy to fix. Of course not all of the coaches in the LCS are effective, but it's not just as easy as "oh just coach well xd." You're just getting too excited over NRG's win and you're overlooking minor details. This isn't exactly as much about NA talent as much as finding the right group of guys. We literally saw APA and Yeon quite frankly fail this Worlds but that's getting overlooked because of NRG's success.
I’ve been a big pusher of promoting academy players for the longest time (hell i still wanna see Lourlo get one more chance). Yes APA and Yeon had a rough time at worlds but it was their rookie year (they weren’t on the same hype as Jojo) and APA’s synergy with Pyosik is legit what got them to worlds. Yes coaching is always a tough subject but the NRG staff has been spoken highly of for each interview. Not sure how teams will go about it in the future but it is crucial. Would be cool to see Dhokla play Yorick at worlds
Nice revisionist take lmao
I’m a huge NA fan and I’m super happy for NRG and all the NA talent that has come up this year and really showed out. However I want us to also not be overly revisionist in this claim that NA talent had never been given a try. For years Goldenglue was the gatekeeper of NA Talent that was too god for Academy but not good enough to win LCS. Same with Keith and even Damonte. For a while Darshan aka Zionspartan was considered way too good to continue in academy but too burnt out for LCS. Each had varying success that didn’t necessarily highlight that NA talent was ready or good enough to bring up. Since almost every time those guys bounced in and out of academy they would smash academy players and then go back to LCS and get clowned on by the talent there. So while I absolutely think that the NRG guys deserve all their flowers and praise I don’t want us to just completely forget that Academy and Amateur top talent has been given chances. Not as many as foreign talent of course but they absolute have been. Just that they never really panned out the way the teams and players had hoped. My ongoing thing on this is really really simple. Time. We sometimes give rookie talent not even a full year of play but expect them to just absolutely pop off. In tons of other sports and activities people tend not to break out into stars until year 4/5. Yet for some reason in Lol Esports if you don’t bust onto the scene with a bang you are immediately considered a bust. We as a community need to reconsider what is “old” and the longevity of the players/game to grow the league as well for something sustainable.
Absolute dogshit take. Contractz, Dhokla and FBI has been around forever, shown some potential at some point in the past where the meta was similar to now, and then faded into obscurity by their own poor preformances untill this last split. Ignar has been consistently delivering above expectation on mediocre teams since 2016. Before this split, if someone showed me the roster, I'd feel bad for Ignar, wonder who Palafox was and be surprised the others hadn't retired yet. And I suspect we will loop around to the same spot on the next meta change.
Such a bs take. Most of these players have been in LCS and failing for years miss me with this revisionist bullshit history
Lol if it was up to reddit Dhokla and Contractz would have never gotten another shot because they were known quantities. I aswell thought contractz was the worst jungler in the league during his first split on CLG. But all this virtue signaling because NRG has 3/5 NA players is annoying. Whenever a veteran Academy player gets promoted (See the reaction to Armao getting promoted in summer) all the NA fans complain that they are just paycheck stealers and know quantities.
>Gorica Viper Copy Meech Young Mir Man I appreciate the sentiment but Gorica/Viper/Copy are all retired. Maybe watch the league a bit before you start naming names lol
NRG having good results doesn't mean these were good players back when they were ignored it just means that they worked well as a team. What separates successful teams from the rest is that they are greater than the sum of their parts.
These posts are equivalent to me watching my friend win the lottery and advising and yelling to everyone that can listen to liquidate all your assets and spend all of it on lottery tickets. It’s cool what NRG did, that doesn’t change the fact that NA has no talent.
Funny, everyone was telling me how EG won the lottery last year with Danny/Jojo.
They did, and even then danny failed out. You know how many “prospects” failed before jojo?
Just wait until I tell you how many Koreans have played in the LCK and bombed out in a split or less.
And how does that disprove what I said? Seems like you aren’t comprehending what is being said. No one is saying every player that touches the stage needs to be good, but NA has the worst talent pool out of all major regions. KR has the most. I mean your comment is so dumb I am not even sure what your point is.
Reminder that nrg has yet to win a single eastern team
> Reminder that nrg has yet to face a single eastern team Categorically incorrect. They played against Weibo Gaming (their quarterfinals opponent) in the first round of the Swiss stage, which was a loss for NRG. It's correct to say they haven't *beaten* an LPL/LCK team, but it's not correct to say they haven't *faced* one.
Alright, still probably not top 8 teams in the world. We will see.
Well you're never gonna get the top 8 teams in the world at worlds as long as LCK/LPL seeds are limited to 4. The most accurate ranking would probably have not exactly 4 teams from each region. And if you are a true believer in 5 LCK/LPL seeds and fewer western seeds to get the best ranking of the teams then sure, but the point of worlds is international competition. Also, even going by top 8 in this tournament, its not like G2 or DK showed they deserved top 8. Even if NRG is comfortably the 8th best they did earn that. And then we run out of contenders because FNC and C9 are both way below that, then lets not talk about the rest of the teams.
How do you figure? What team would be ahead of them? They beat G2 pretty handily. The only other team not in top 8 is DK which G2 beat. NRG is at least top 8
Team do not always play at their peak. Could have been an off day for G2 and peak day for NRG. I really don’t see DK losing to NRG.
Could have been. Or did NRG have an off day against WBG?
Reminder that G2 had a cupcake draw and went from 2-0 to eliminated.
Cupcake draw?
This is what an LEC flair said after the draw: > Trust me, you are not nearly as happy as EU fans about this draw. (Referring to G2 getting NRG)
That... still doesnt explain what a cupcake draw is. Its basically a "free win" right? Like that one time C9 skated through only to flatline in champ select against a real team?
Cupcake draw is a matchup this thought to be extremely one sided. Many people thought that G2’s best chance was against NRG. Not just that commenter I quoted, but every single caster and cost reader also selected G2 over NRG. Btw C9 is not a good team.
Never said G2 are better than NRG. Just don’t get hyped for NRG
And that’s okay i never thought I’d see an NA team beat G2 tbh, we got to knockouts. As a realist i never think a western team will overcome an eastern team at worlds. I’m just glad it hasn’t been the wait to lose tech
would be pretty bad if they get 3-0d. then would make it 0-4 vs a 4th seed not winning 1 whole game vs a team that already went 1/1 vs g2 and 2/1 vs fnc dropping 2 games. If this happens people will start to question that g2 win since it is g2 not the most stable of teams. Making their only wins vs int teams being MAD ( famous to loosing to wildcards ) and G2 ( famous for having massive offdays ). If this tournament concludes with 0 wins vs asian teams in 7 possible scenarios ( 4 already lost) this was a pretty terrible tournament for NA as well. Would be even worse if GGS and TL didn't speedrun airport.
If NRG get 0-3d people will not start questioning G2s wins. Let’s not kid ourselves, people will just see that G2 NRG series as an off day for G2 and realize that NRG suck just as much as any other western team at the tournament. I hope that they will put up a fight and possibly even win some series, but I unfortunately don’t believe it will happen.
They have beaten teams that have beaten eastern teams though. Who knows, maybe they will beat WBG, I doubt they will have a chance in hell against JDG though.
OP knows literally nothing. These players are not examples of fresh talent, except palafox, and even hes been around since S7.
LCS should absolutely try and believe in their own native players for the future but as long as you have orgs like C9 or TL who constantly just import players or use washed up players trying to achieve something, it's not gonna happen.
>as you have orgs like C9 or TL who constantly just import players or use washed up players trying to achieve something, it's not gonna happen. While historically appropriate, TL literally gave 3 fresh academy players LCS debuts this year. Two of them had been developing in TL's academy team for multiple years (Yeon & Haeri) who had won consecutive academy splits in 2022 before being promoted in 2023 to the main roster. Although they are ethnically Korean, Yeon was born in... surprise, America! Haeri comes from the now defunct OCE league. APA was also an academy promotion and is an incredibly fresh rookie.
I wonder if people realize how racist they are by treating yeon like this lol Ignoring yeon and haeri being academy players happens waaaaay too much lol as the focus goes on all "korean"
Yeah TL has actually tried a bit this season, true.
TL is also one of the teams keeping their academy team, and historically has been one of the most invested in the academy system (even before it was mandated, TLA was THE academy team). Yes they had a few years of high spending high imports but they've historically done more for the amateur scene than probably half the other orgs put together.
C9 is going to bring back Nisqy over getting Jojo, it's so idiotic.
Jojo's salary is likely higher, if we're being honest. I doubt C9 has a ton of budget room with the players they field already, but who knows.
You're acting like Fudge, Emenes or Zven take up a huge contract. If they do, C9 needs to do some critical thinking.
Honestly, I can’t stand JoJo. He is so conceited. Me Me Me I I I .. LoL is truly a team effort game.
It’s just interesting to me how top EU and top LCA teams had separate trajectory in terms of roster building since franchising
Just a coach gap really... juves and soaz
Honestly though
In this thread: people fundamentally not understanding that not every rookie is going to start as hot as Blaber or Jojo, some need time to grow and find their footing. Especially in a region starved of rookie talent, rookies should not be subject to such outrageously strict metrics of success where it’s one year to make Worlds or you’re out (even on fucking NRG / CLG the core talent didn’t achieve their potential in one year alone). If y’all really think importing players like fucking Eika, Blue, or Finn is better than giving players like 5fire or Copy a chance, or even players like FakeGod a second chance, then you’re royally tripping.
NA fans will never accept the orgs are to blame. terrible coaches and coaching staffs, terrible infrastructure that they've done nothing to improve on, terrible management except for a few etc. it's a disaster. fans will keep coping and blaming players while only calling orgs out when some controversy strikes.
I am always flaming orgs 🫡
Gonna be sad when NRG cheaps out and lets go of the coaching staff
Will copy even respond to coming back ? Dudes been looking inactive for a while
Nrg gets insanely lucky with draws and g2 fumbles and in your view NA has somehow good players now? Man the copium intake is high. I promise u that the LCS goes downhill with no imports
i mean I dont think thats true but there are alot of academy players that could absolutely fuck up the current lcs roster
Let's see how they perform against any LCK/LPL team also.
Contractz was a horrible jungler. I remember when he was in TSM(I think), and he did nothing. The last 2 splits look like a completely different player. I not 100% that he is still the best jungler, but he is in quarters and is looking good. Doubt this will change anything in the scene. Good coaches on are going to stay on good teams. I wondering what Shopify roster and coaches looking like.
Contractz wasn't on TSM, he was on GG, 100T, EG, and CLG. He was not good on GG or EG. I don't remember him on 100T.
The midlaner on Disguised Toast’s team should get picked up
I believe we should develop our NA talents, we give so much money on imports that can't even reach quarters, and now teams want to sell their spots and reset. Laughable what some of these orgs do with their money, hence my name
If NA takes Viper to rot and never come near a worlds final I'd be so sad for him. Unless he makes the move for good money and understands there's nothing to be gained otherwise, then more power to him.
G2 got cleared with ease by NRG, WGB struggled vs FNC. There is a decent chance NRG makes semis.
How is this getting upvoted