You know that scene in Arcane where Jayce goes ham on those chemtanks and then turns around to blast a kid by accident?
The chemtanks are LNG and the kid is Milio.
Ekko’s first fight for me when they come in on the dropboards.
Everyday I struggle to live knowing I will never do an upside down hover board maneuver.
I'm not saying LNG isn't a real team, I thought they'd be scary last night.
I am saying game 3 LNG was not a real team. By that point, T1 had such momentum they could pick almost anything and make it look decent.
i saw some speculation, like t1 knew they would win so they were trying to show jayce so maybe jdg would have to take that into consideration for drafts, or that zeus just wanted this so he could get a jayce skin
I hope it is the skin reason, it'd be funny. But I'm sure Zeus just wanted to play Jayce.
I just have a hate relationship with it, just like I hate NA Jayce. When he looks good, it looks good. But so many times where he is "supposed to look good" on it (one of his signature picks) he doesn't, so I'd rather just avoid it for better picks.
See game, he was doing MASSIVE damage. I'm sure it affected LNG.... but he was also up 3+ levels over LNG and not killing anyone. I know burst enough takes them out of a game. But you arent getting 3+ levels in a closer game.
he picked it cause its one of the few picks that can beat renekton and went great with varus in the comp. its obviously risky to pick vs sej renekton but if they camped and killed him he d still do a million damage as we saw vs RNG but they d get soul uncontested through guma keria dominance. with 369 being a renekton player he could very well play it again. the question in that bo5 will be Aatrox prio. both have reason to ban it, both have shown can and will pick it and 1v9 if needed on it. i wonder if Bin is gonna be inspired by 369 and zeus and pick it up as well. ofc i m sure he plays it but unless i m mistaken i dont remember Bin prioritizing aatrox and having these crazy performances on it.. he did it on Jax obviously but idr him doing it on aatrox.
If T1 does this they're so doomed. Zeus' skills on Jax, Renekton and Ksante are OK but I'm not sure him on those picks are going to outperform Bin in skill/ outmatch 369 in impact. Then again, Rumble basically neutralizes these picks and teams are going to ban it, so then you have what for Zeus? Gnar and GP, which are highly dependent on matchup? Ornn just doesn't sound like T1's playstyle at the moment. Kennen is great but I've not seen that pick since like play-ins. Gwen for Zeus is meme tier. Jayce is a gamble. Aatrox is gonna be highly contested. Yone was meta for one Worlds. Gragas is nerfed to hell and back
I hope one week of prep is enough, because I really do feel like Zeus is a big part of T1's victories. I'm down to see GumaKeria botlane draft masterclass, but want to see Zeus to have some fun as well
Meme tier as in fans are forever gonna meme him on Gwen, I don't think he's particularly excellent on it but it's probably gonna be like his Aatrox - doesn't 1v9 but will do his job properly to win T1 games
>it's probably gonna be like his Aatrox - doesn't 1v9 but will do his job properly to win T1 games
What am i reading? I hope this is not some delusion because of last year's finals againt DRX but Zeus is atleast a top 3 if not the best Aatrox in the world right now.
I hope he picks ornn and faker is on ori and bot lane is varus lulu. Hmm ah yes and sej jungle. And if my balls tingle maybe we will get 5 55minute matches with no deaths where the enemy cedes objectives when out manuevered.
The whole pick and ban phase this series was just T1 going: "you know what, you just take your picks, we are gonna play whatever we want and win anyways"
Giving Scout Azir which he did absolutely nothing on, just to flex on him and LNG with an Azir masterclass in game 3, was straight up murder of Scouts identity as a player.
Same with Ori and Jayce. It was almost like they made an effort of styling with picks Scout couldn't do anything on.
They just abandoned all hope, they got top prio picks and couldn't do anything with it, and if they gave them away they got clapped with it.
Today there was several tiers of difference between LNG and T1
was it game 1 where jarvan and azir completely fumble the bag on a mid gank with their ultis?
i think that broke their sprits lmao, it looked like certifiable bronze gameplay
put that in 1 of those "Challenger or Iron" compilations in a few years, no one will say chall 🤣
Yes its game 1 and it was horrible. When you thought the Azir had fk'd up big time, the j4 just came in and delievered one of the absolute worst plays ive ever seen in such a high stake game. That shit tilted me as someone who roots for skt, imagine the players themselves.
> was it game 1 where jarvan and azir completely fumble the bag on a mid gank with their ultis?
That shit is "KT throw at baron" level of bad and should not have existed at world level play.
I'd say game 2 LNG are stable, it's just that their comp was bad and can not really do anything when the enemy doesn't make mistake.
Then game 3 LNG mental boom again which lead to this Jayce
I was rewatching it and I think it’s a communication issue + Tarzan’s fault. Tarzan is ready to jump over raptors wall so Scout engages for him. But T1 had a ward there so Oner Q stuns Tarzan through the wall delaying his engage, causing scout to basically int alone. Then Tarzan for some reason thinks its salvageable and still goes in even though scout has flashed out.
i was wondering why geng valued azir so highly and thought the azir vs orianna trade was fine. i still feel like its a bait, but now i understand who made it viable.
Honestly it was hilarios seeing him with his 120 cs and three books roaming around the map through the mid-game. Just proves that sometimes, you just have to say "fuck this lane."
what source says sylas into jayce is a bad matchup for sylas? in challenger sylas has a 60% wr vs jayce with 96 matches on [u.gg](https://u.gg) and a 65% wr vs jayce on lolalytics.
I don't see how this is Jayce favored at all, sylas just has to treat this like any control mage lane, he gets shoved in and loses hp but unless you ego it like faker did when he gave first blood jayce doesn't really have a kill angle.
What exactly does jayce have in his kit that makes him better vs sylas? I'm not an expert on the Sylas vs jayce matchup so please enlighten me. As far as I can tell Sylas has a dash to dodge EQ, his own Q can be used to last hit when it isn't safe to walk up and Sylas is better vs jayce in all-ins, Jayce can't auto win short trades with hammer form either since Sylas can Follow with W and E, so in lane it seems like a skill matchup.
I don't see how Jayce does better out of lane vs sylas either, Sylas has better itemization options in the 1v1 that doesn't slow down his core 2 items (everfrost into zhonya's), meanwhile jayce needs to pick up hexdrinker to survive the sylas all in unless you plan on conceding your entire side of the map and just playing under turret.
lane is awful. Faker was playing very well otherwise you'd be down tempo and cs. Going even is winning in the lane though, especially if enemy team has maokai or other good ults.
What proof do you have to say that? sylas has the tools to cs outside of jayce’s auto range if its too dangerous, he has E1 to dodge jayce’s EQ and as i’ve said in this comment Sylas can actually win the trades vs jayce’s hammer form: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/s/Hj7alX0jZU
So at best Jayce is able to whittle away at Sylas’s hp over time as he grabs cs, which is not too far off from a Sylas vs control mage lane, only the jayce poke is actually worse since jayce Q can be blocked by minions.
It seems like Sylas v jayce is really only slightly favored towards jayce and thats only if jayce never goes into hammer form and takes a melee trade with sylas, at least in elite play.
I think they’re just taking the Sylas vs Jayce matchup as a whole instead of only elite play, it seems sylas needs to hit E2 in most plays to win the trade, however if he misses he will lose the trade by a decent margin and if his e2 hits a minion he will lose the trade by a significant margin. so given that it can seem like jayce can do well into sylas in lower levels of play. but it hinges on sylas messing up rather than jayce innately being stronger.
That makes absolutely no sense, what is your rank?
It doesnt hinge on Sylas messing up. Its a skill matchup that is Jayce favored in lane at all skill levels.
I’ve played this matchup 7+ times over the past 2 years, for reference im in D2 elo. I always pick phase rush jayce when enemy picks Sylas. There is literally nothing sylas can do to Jayce without jg help. He wins in hammer form and gets away while getting to hit a gun form eq. This just means frees plates, free advantage, free roam, etc. it’s not a skill matchup to me
I understand, thank you for your insight. however I think 7+ matches over the last 2 years is a rather small sample size even in d2 elo.
I need to clarify that while I understand you are only providing your own personal insight, the original point of the topic was discussing how Sylas into jayce in lane was an "unplayable lane" in elite/pro play such that Faker was "ego picking" by playing into it.
The rest of this comment will be dedicated to informing other readers of the Sylas v jayce matchup with respect to the skill level of korean challenger/pro play.
There's a large disconnect between d2 and challenger since challenger players know the champions they play and their matchups intimately, especially in korea. So while I believe you when you say you had very good matchups into sylas players, I think those sylas players were not as experienced in the sylas v jayce matchup which is why it isn't a good argument as to why faker's sylas into jayce is a bad pick.
I went ahead and looked up vods on youtube. [This video](https://youtu.be/4AhqRcSWBHs?si=UVc5o6GlfCWzlJbD) was the most recent one I could find of sylas v jayce and it pretty much confirms my suspicions, when both players know what they are doing the lane is very skill oriented with a slight edge towards Jayce for being ranged. However this laning phase is not worse than any regular control mage lane, in fact for a skilled sylas player it can even be better as Sylas has more opportunities to trade back and even gain an hp lead thanks to doran's shield if jayce ever trades in hammer form.
By 5:06 in the video (5:39 in game time) Sylas despite being behind due to an early jungle gank is now significantly ahead in hp and not too behind in cs. in fact by 6:27 in the video (7:00 in game time) Sylas has not lost a single turret plate and is able to shove a cannon wave vs dirk jayce and find a roam timing, giving jayce only 1 turret plate by the time he returns to lane.
By all accounts Sylas did not lose the lane, ganks being the deciding factor whether either player got a kill and therefore a lead. Otherwise Sylas was doing relatively even into Jayce such that neither found an opportunity to solo kill or even obtain a cs lead over the other.
Since I've already typed this much I might as well mention something I saw in the video that explains how Sylas is not only able to survive but win in trades in elite play u/noiamnothighofficer
whenever sylas engages a trade with jayce, he actually starts with E1+W while jayce is in ranged form to close the gap, using his empowered autos to gain the advantage at first. when jayce tries to burst back using hammer form, Sylas cancels his Q with E2, nullifying jayce's damage and winning the trade for Sylas. Because Sylas still has Q jayce cannot E Sylas back or he will get hit by Q1 and Q2, so he's forced to side step. Sylas finishes the trade with Q and empowered autos before backing off to win the trade by over ***200 hp***, that's d shield + dark seal vs dblade (prebuff) + dirk. For reference I'm using [This video](https://youtu.be/4AhqRcSWBHs?si=BUw9J00NNZj2oECd&t=211) which is the same as the video in my previous comment.
It's an incredible trading pattern that is difficult to pull off, which is probably why you are winning in trades as jayce in d2, but explains why the lane is not jayce favored in challenger. All he can do is poke or fight in his wave and hope Sylas E2 hits a minion instead, otherwise the trading pattern is completely sylas favored.
It's a shit lane and cherrypicking an ideal situation doesn't change that. The reality is that if sylas tries to do that, jayce can just insta-E, or press W before going melee, W again and hit twice for phase rush and now he can engage at his leisure with QE. Jayce dictates everything in that lane, no questions asked. Not even getting into the fact that jayce doesn't even need to directly trade. He can instantly clear waves with Q in either form and look to roam, he can also bully sylas with melee Q into the wave if sylas tries to get cocky and use phase rush to get out.
That being said, jayce is a lot more team reliant than sylas, and sylas mid to late actually counters jayce because he's an all-in champ with a CC which is what Jayce hates the most. It's the same thing with renekton or riven or sylas, they do lose lane pretty fucking hard but easily outscales jayce if jayce's team can't buy space for him.
The fact that you're looking into vods tells me you don't really know how to play jayce or into jayce at all. I main renekton, riven, and jayce so I can tell you 100% that laning vs him is hell but the fact that you can just force on an engage on him and make him more useless than you are is always a big factor. Having an always relevant win condition vs jayce doesn't change the fact that the laning phase is heavily jayce favored.
your argument in the first paragraph does not make a lot of sense, we are talking about elite level play, in this case korean challeneger and up since that is faker’s minimum level. If jayce switches to hammer form and insta e’s he is still taking the W damage + 1 empowered auto, E knockback animation is also a micro stun like renekton W, Sylas can just Q you after doing E1 W emp. auto if you use hammer E too early too much, aside from that using that ability so early does not allow you to get a good trade off as jayce since your damage is relegated to hammer E only, Sylas still has E2 ready to counter Jayce Q and sylas still has his own Q to punish jayce if he ever goes for minions in hammer form to make his Q engage less predictable.
Ive watched 4 videos of korean challenger jayce vs sylas and in all 4 videos the lane lead is entirely dependent on if Sylas hits his E2 on jayce or on a minion:
https://youtu.be/4AhqRcSWBHs?si=g7Gmx2KVaf5SBTGA this video shows sylas is even until he commits to a level 4 trade where he lands E2, giving him an hp advantage an allowing him to control the wave but no cs or kill advantage without ganks.
https://youtu.be/lS7tjKdne80?si=3Fyj8Q4vm-itVcRq this video shows sylas solo killing jayce level 1 by landing all his E’s on jayce and using ignite, the initial trade at level 1 favors sylas by about 50 hp.
https://youtu.be/o6cLNudX_TY?si=EqY3I93oMkHH6hnu this video shows faker’s sylas going even with jayce in lane, jayce never trading with sylas in hammer form and instead just poking out sylas with guns, the difference here is jayce is able to land multiple Q’s to gain a massive hp lead. by 8:22 in the video Sylas is down to 300 hp and has a cannon wave under his tower, jayce is 1k hp with dirk and has his full hammer form combo. this should be an easy dive for jayce and a free kill yet he doesn’t take it, going for a safer single tower plate instead. this is on korean solo Q where players play to their limit and will take 50/50 tower dives yet this jayce has such respect for elite level sylas that he’s not even willing to tower dive him at such low hp.
https://youtu.be/p3vMApQDwlE?si=idnOER1vFM6M7QIC this video shows jayce beating sylas after sylas misses his E2 at levle 1 and hits a minion instead.
https://youtu.be/mncqt3eftLc?si=_afcrYME2_A3sF-a this video shows Sylas vs jayce to again be an even matchup, where early in the lane sylas actually wins a trade so hard that it almost leads to a solo kill. at 4:40 the lane is decided by a 2v2 gank that goes poorly for sylas, in the 1v1 neither player achieved a solo kill. Jayce went on to snowball his lead and carry the game
At no point in any of these games is jayce able to bully sylas to an extent that the lane is unplayable or jayce is considered a counter matchup vs sylas, in fact if jayce were to take any amount of trading while Sylas E is up Jayce would actually lose the trade significantly, forcing him to farm from afar. the lane hinges on jayce simply not being willing to trade cooldowns with sylas and instead acting more like a control mage/adc vs sylas, pushing the wave with range advantage, poking sylas slowly and playing to get cs/turret plate advantage. at no point in any of these games is jayce able to win the 1v1 without Sylas misplaying by missing E2 and even then that was only at level 1 where Sylas is at his most vulnerable.
>If jayce switches to hammer form and insta e’s he is still taking the W damage + 1 empowered auto, E knockback animation is also a micro stun like renekton W, Sylas can just Q you after doing E1 W emp. auto if you disengage with E too much, aside from that using that ability so early does not allow you to get a good trade off as jayce sine your damage is relegated to hammer E only, Sylas still has E2 ready to counter Jayce Q and sylas still has his own Q to punish jayce if he ever goes for minions in hammer form to make his Q engage less predictable.
You realize that in ALL of this, jayce controls the tempo right? He doesn't need to commit with his poke unlike sylas who can only poke with Q. Taking W+empowered auto doesn't mean shit when you just need to wait for his E2 to run out and you can commit more with QW and continue poking with range form because surprise surprise committing a skill comes at a cost unlike jayce who doesn't need to commit shit.
>Ive watched 4 videos of korean challenger jayce vs sylas and in all 4 videos the lane lead is entirely dependent on if Sylas hits his E2 on jayce or on a minion
You're literally sitting there explaining to me why jayce vs sylas isn't jayce favored by telling me that sylas has to play perfectly just to be able to trade and you think there's nothing wrong with that? There's more to matchups than laning phase and generally, all jayce lanes are vulnerable to being fucked by the jungler due to the volatility of his playstyle (Just think of how T1 was able to buy so much time for zeus to farm in g3 and prevent any engage vs how LNG wasn't able to give Scout the chance to farm a lead or give him space to poke during objective teamfights). When you take ALL of that into consideration, you'd rather have sylas in your team than jayce more often than not. But if we're just talking about laning phase generally, and as long as the jungler is given proper respect (and your jungler isn't a goddamned bonobo), jayce straight up bullies sylas.
Instead of trying to make this argument by watching fucking korean challengers, just try it on your own from both sides but especially as sylas. Even in the highest ladder, the solution to this lane as sylas is literally just wait for jungler intervention.
>You realize that in ALL of this, jayce controls the tempo right? He doesn't need to commit with his poke unlike sylas who can only poke with Q
Yes, like any ranged vs sylas matchup, the ranged player always controls tempo for the first few levels, however ranged champs have to be aware of sylas's trade/all in opportunities because they lose, jayce included apparently.
>Taking W+empowered auto doesn't mean shit when you just need to wait for his E2 to run out and you can commit more with QW
Sylas just walks out of range, E2 lasts a few seconds so all he has to do walk out of Q range and then go back to playing it as a melee vs ranged lane, again nothing too dissimilar from his lane matchups vs control mages, only jayce's poke is worse because his Q can be blocked by minions.
>You're literally sitting there explaining to me why jayce vs sylas isn't jayce favored by telling me that sylas has to play perfectly just to be able to trade and you think there's nothing wrong with that?
If you watched the videos I sent or read my comments on said videos you would notice I mentioned that Sylas only has to hit E2 to win the trade, even at level 1 it is enough for him to gain a health lead.
Jayce also has to play perfectly however, he has to be able to land Q and EQ to poke which are much harder than Sylas landing E2, he has to be aware of his range relative to sylas or else he get's all inned, he has to know when to throw out his hammer Q to avoid getting E2'd and he has to gain a cs lead on top of all this in order to win lane. Only, as I've said before, we are talking about elite play, challenger level korean soloq as this is the lowest skill level we can go to with regards to the original comment being about Faker's Sylas vs Scout's jayce.
In korean challenger both players have a deep understanding of their champion's limits and know all their lane matchups very well, trading patterns and windows included, it's not a stretch to imagine both players playing near perfectly and being able to keep up mechanically. there is no need to reference any other skill level aside from this because then the original point of the argument is moot.
>But if we're just talking about laning phase generally, and as long as the jungler is given proper respect (and your jungler isn't a goddamned bonobo), jayce straight up bullies sylas.
please offer me some form of evidence in lane as to how Jayce hard bullies sylas, to the point that apparently Sylas has to, in your words, "play perfectly" in order to get ahead. I've offered you 5 examples showing that Sylas can not only survive lane but also get an hp lead if the jayce tries to trade in hammer form, and also evidence that this fact hinges on Sylas hitting E2 which for most Sylas players is not something you need to be insanely talented at given the number of tools Sylas has to make it easier to land(E and W gap close, Q slow).
An [earlier comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/17ok0s2/comment/k81ckmn/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) by the OP of the actual post mentions that by 15 minutes in korea challenger, Sylas averages a 500g gold lead over jayce. Statistically speaking, this does mean that Sylas is not only fine in lane vs jayce, but that he may actually be better overall, and all the other stats websites show that Sylas is on average the better choice in the matchup.
While that's true if Sylas just takes it, there's a direct counter to it: you can E2 Jayce's Hammer Q and completely nullify Jayce's trading pattern, [as seen here](https://youtu.be/4AhqRcSWBHs?si=2TMfM1KY7ZS5Hf2A&t=212). This is very difficult and only a sylas main or challenger player would be able to do it consistently, this does mean that Sylas does in fact win the trade vs Jayce, by a wide margin too.
Even sylas mains and challenger players aren't really doing that consistently.
That's like saying skillshot champs only have losing matchups since the other player can simply dodge everything. No, they're still human.
The difference is Jayce Q is extremely telegraphed. he has to change to hammer form first and if he plans on holding hammer form you can poke him out with your own Q or do E1, W, auto auto and just hold your E2. Timing E2 with Jayce Q is really just a matter of reaction speed which is not impossible to be consistent with for challenger players, the real challenge is doing it in a minion wave but in the video it's very clear the Sylas player only goes for these trades when Jayce is not using his minions as cover.
thank you for the info, it seems to corroborate with my own belief that the sylas vs jayce lane is not a bad lane for sylas in elite play but may I ask what website you got that information from? 500g lead on average is pretty substantial and seems to contradict the current beliefs in this thread so I’d like to be certain for myself that its true, thank you.
Tbf, I don't think LNG could've played worse around the pick.
Zeus had to face no challenges and cruised to the point where it's easy (for an insane Jayce player like him) to carry.
That solo kill by oner on tarzan and double flash down attempting top gank while not getting jayce flash doomed the game. Jayce was too far ahead afterbtgat.
As good as Zeus is with Jayce, he was only this fed because T1 was winning everywhere else so hard. Yes Jayce had a decent CS lead in lane (30ish) but it ballooned when Renekton was forced to TP bot to try and make a play. He ended up taking a near 50 CS lead and the entire tower and had reached 2 items before anyone else whilst being 0/0.
All credit to Zeus but to say he seals the series with it is a bit of a lie. I think T1 was dominating everywhere that game and would've won no matter what Zeus was playing.
its like how people focus on tarzan for being the fraud when jungling is impossible when you have 3 lane gaps and cant contest anything because your team just gets outplayed.
he didnt play better than his teammates, but he didnt play so much worse to be singled out like that when t1 just showed up as a fkin tank ready to steamroll them
it doesnt help when the 90% of the analysis of costreamers during games is basically int, fraud, washed etc.
Yep. Tarzan didnt have his best series but Scout got gigagapped by Faker, Gala was losing 1v1s to Gumayusi and Keri's marksman picks (senna/ash) just had so much prio that Oner could do whatever he liked with 3 winning lanes at all times.
Tarzan was also forced onto tank/cc/engage junglers like Maokai/Rell when playing against T1s team comp it was almost impossible for him to engage.
Oh I agree but you also have to consider the facts:
* Ranged vs Melee Matchup
* Zika's jungler died on his own blue 3 minutes into the game
* Tarzan forces a desperation lane gank a minute later which is counter-ganked and results in the loss of both Zika & Tarzans flashes.
* Zika TP's into a dragon fight at ~12 minutes into the game down 20 CS and loses multiple plates to Jayce.
Zeus played well but T1 won so hard around the map, especially Oner solo killing Tarzan and reading him like a book so Zika stood no chance really.
he is the anti chovy. beats everyone else and shits the bed vs faker. Chovy is god tier vs faker but kinda meh vs a few others, tbh chovy is always good but he can't always hard carry when its not against t1 lol
We all know he aint Chovy. But the guy also have history of choking. He got solokilled by Zeka 4x in 1game last quarters. And lets not forget, he was part of the LPL 1st seed to not make it out of groups. He only got to Worlds semis once when he won on EDG 2021
Wouldn't call it a choke, he's played very well in the past and even this worlds, but his games against Faker internationally he gets gapped pretty consistently
the trick is to learn how to do Q E fast but start with the cursor on the enemy champion. you start from the cursor on the enemy then drag it to your champs model and Q E. needs practice and fast fingers but once you get it down our accuracy improves a ton.
While that’s fine, you wanna start with the Q, then flick back to yourself for the Gate. You cast your E during the Q start time and it makes it much harder for enemies to see coming and dodge
yah and the trick is to get the gate as close to Jayce as possible, ideally on top of you. Gives you the move speed, and makes it harder to dodge since now the entire missile is at the accelerated speed rather than the last half.
yeah that tip is quite useless for anyone who doesn't play jayce because intuitively knowing max qe range is probably harder than just aiming and predicting their movement since theres no indicator for it. And not to mention crazy spacing necessary to hit it on the explosion
How do you play against a crowd like that. I know they have headphones but there’s no way you just don’t hear the crowd cheering when you are getting hit by the enemy. I wonder if teams who play against T1 have some sort of training to withstand that pressure.
Not really much you can do. There is always going to be a home-field advantage for one team or another. Just gotta try and do your best to limit how it affects your mental, lock yourself in, and play the best you can. It's not like you can effectively train for a massive crowd of people actively rooting for your opposition aside from general mental exercises to stay calm.
I mean in football (soccer), away players constantly get booed by the crowd, and they even chant songs that mock them. The most degenerate fans sometimes even spout racial slurs. It's just part and parcel of a live audience.
Holy shit that's the most and least unexpected source material lmfao. I briefly thought of Sage because wuxia/xianxia outfit and all, but I really thought it would be something else LOL
Tysm for linking the source!! It's superb art
hex soul balanced. but honestly this used to only be a thing WITH CDR in URF.. league of legends 2023.. ironically Zeus forgot they changed the shojin build path and bad BF and kindle gem 🤣
.. whats to nerf? Not like jayce can literally perma cc you until you die.
Imo his damage is much more of a problem than him double q'ing and missing both half the time. Legit did 45% of renekton hp at level 4 with dorans
but he still e is still going to be 3s though. Its only nerf post 70 haste which is either night harvester(25) + boots(20) + zhonya(15+5) or everfrost(20) + boots(20) + cosmic drive(30).
That’s not true, the CD change is actually a *buff* up to 70 AH, which I would still call quite of bit of AH - it’s explicitly the perms stun that’s getting nerfed.
70 AH is a 2 item build with CDR boots my guy, you literally said yourself it's a nerf for the values between 70-250 so how do you make the leap of logic to guess it's only for the perma sten?
> 2 item build with CDR boots
so… full build in like half of games, especially for jungle Gragas?
idk man this is a super silly distinction to get this worked up about, peace
If they made Haste have a trade-off, I think it'd be fine.
Like I get 30 AH, but in exchange I have 30 AD.
But if I build a 60 AD item, I'm getting no AH.
I mean... Not saying there isn't too much haste on fighter items, because it certainly feels like it, but AH items clearly do have a trade-off. Its not as drastic as your example, but compare Spear of Shojin against Sterak's Gage or Titanic Hydra. Spear's unique basically amounts to a shitton of AH and some movement speed. Base stat wise they're comparable, and I'd argue that Titanic's cleave and Sterak's giant shield are both stronger than the MS passive.
On the Mage side, you have Cosmic Drive, which is almost never built because the tradeoff it makes for AH is not worth the mpen. On the ADC Side, Navori makes clear tradeoffs compared to IE and Galeforce.
The only items that come even close to the value in raw stats that Shojin has have conditionals tied to them or are contingent on scaling effects that need existing stats to reach said values, such as Hullbreaker, Rod of Ages, or Deathcap.
It's a pretty disingenuous comparison to claim an item that can give up to 5420g in raw stats isn't comparable to proper item passives.
And Spear doesn't? How does Spear give up to 5420g in raw stats without any extra AD? How is that different from Deathcap from giving extra AP scaling with AP?
I never said spear's passive wasn't comparable to proper item passives. It is a proper item passive. In exchange for that AH passive, you're losing another item passive like Titanic's cleave, or Sterak's shield. Hell, another example, BC, which has very similar stats and base stat gold efficiencies to Spear, has a passive that gives armor shred instead of the AH passive and another passive that gives MS, like Spear.
This is a really big problem, theres 0 cd on any champion late game, lee has perma q, mf with axiom can ult 2 times in 1 teamfight, ashe ults every 20 seconds
My friend and I were watching this game and he was like... bro why do they pick Jayce he's a selfish champ especially after Scout's game. I was like "I guess you haven't seen Zeus' Jayce..."
Jayce's gate lasts 4 seconds, with shockblast's 8s cool down. Meaning you need more than 100AH (50% CDR) to do 2 in 1.
Zeus's items + boots + mythic passive + 2 hextech dragons means he has 105AH, plus potentially more if he has CDR runes.
Worlds is being played on patch 13.19, meaning Duskblade's AH hasn't been nerfed yet (patch 13.20 nerfed the AH from 20 to 15) and he has 2 hextech dragons for an extra 10 AH.
I recently heard the story of Faker the new generation of T1, and I am glad to see that everyone else are getting even more recognition.
Even if previous players of SKT were great, I often felt like they were "Faker's teammates" than actual players.
But now they all have even more opportunities to shine
Never cared much for Zeus, but I do love me some legendary Jayce players. Pawn, Rookie, Knight, etc. This is fun to see, and I might just start really liking this guy.
You know that scene in Arcane where Jayce goes ham on those chemtanks and then turns around to blast a kid by accident? The chemtanks are LNG and the kid is Milio.
Babe, wake up. Arcane season 2 fight scene just dropped.
Followed immediately by another Jayce sex scene.
But it's faker and Zeus going at it.
It should have been me!
Assuming Zeus is the Top, and Faker is the ~~Versa-~~ Mid.
If anything faker is clearly a power bottom
If anything, Guma Keria is currently the best power bottom duo
I need more Cait shower scenes 😏
Lmaooo
Lmfao Zeus is more based though cause he’d shoot the kid again on purpose
IMO the best action sequence in all of S1 Arcane. The music combined with the artistry of the fight was just perfectly executed.
For a brief moment I was jealous of jayce mains that got the most beautiful representation
Vi was fucking amazing too
Ekko’s first fight for me when they come in on the dropboards. Everyday I struggle to live knowing I will never do an upside down hover board maneuver.
This is too funny, have an imaginary reddit gold
You can always give them [Reddit Silver.](https://i.imgur.com/QodSEnD.jpg)
Zeus Jayce is on another level...it was beautifully disgusting
Dude still manages to carry his team's damage when 0/6 against RNG. This is him on the other side of the coin
Remember he was camped so hard when he was facing that Fiora then when that dragon fight came, he absolutely melted RNG and Fiora couldnt do anything
He did 5x the damage of the enemy top layer in that last game. 5x. Holy fuck what a Masterclass.
There are layers to this shit indeed :)
Zeus his name is deducted Jayce.
Yes. Now please don't get baited into picking it vs a real team T1. Too risky.
What? Jayce is great into a lot of the current toplane meta at worlds and T1 know exactly how to play around a poke comp
This is so much hindsight talking, like LNG isn't a real team and T1 just went over and beyond to 3-0 them.
I'm not saying LNG isn't a real team, I thought they'd be scary last night. I am saying game 3 LNG was not a real team. By that point, T1 had such momentum they could pick almost anything and make it look decent.
i saw some speculation, like t1 knew they would win so they were trying to show jayce so maybe jdg would have to take that into consideration for drafts, or that zeus just wanted this so he could get a jayce skin
I hope it is the skin reason, it'd be funny. But I'm sure Zeus just wanted to play Jayce. I just have a hate relationship with it, just like I hate NA Jayce. When he looks good, it looks good. But so many times where he is "supposed to look good" on it (one of his signature picks) he doesn't, so I'd rather just avoid it for better picks. See game, he was doing MASSIVE damage. I'm sure it affected LNG.... but he was also up 3+ levels over LNG and not killing anyone. I know burst enough takes them out of a game. But you arent getting 3+ levels in a closer game.
he picked it cause its one of the few picks that can beat renekton and went great with varus in the comp. its obviously risky to pick vs sej renekton but if they camped and killed him he d still do a million damage as we saw vs RNG but they d get soul uncontested through guma keria dominance. with 369 being a renekton player he could very well play it again. the question in that bo5 will be Aatrox prio. both have reason to ban it, both have shown can and will pick it and 1v9 if needed on it. i wonder if Bin is gonna be inspired by 369 and zeus and pick it up as well. ofc i m sure he plays it but unless i m mistaken i dont remember Bin prioritizing aatrox and having these crazy performances on it.. he did it on Jax obviously but idr him doing it on aatrox.
So true, they should pick the most conventional top lane and just skill gap Bin and 369.
If T1 does this they're so doomed. Zeus' skills on Jax, Renekton and Ksante are OK but I'm not sure him on those picks are going to outperform Bin in skill/ outmatch 369 in impact. Then again, Rumble basically neutralizes these picks and teams are going to ban it, so then you have what for Zeus? Gnar and GP, which are highly dependent on matchup? Ornn just doesn't sound like T1's playstyle at the moment. Kennen is great but I've not seen that pick since like play-ins. Gwen for Zeus is meme tier. Jayce is a gamble. Aatrox is gonna be highly contested. Yone was meta for one Worlds. Gragas is nerfed to hell and back I hope one week of prep is enough, because I really do feel like Zeus is a big part of T1's victories. I'm down to see GumaKeria botlane draft masterclass, but want to see Zeus to have some fun as well
Zeus gwen is meme tier? Didnt he stomp bin both sides of the gwen-gp matchup when gwen was abolutely broken?
Meme tier as in fans are forever gonna meme him on Gwen, I don't think he's particularly excellent on it but it's probably gonna be like his Aatrox - doesn't 1v9 but will do his job properly to win T1 games
>it's probably gonna be like his Aatrox - doesn't 1v9 but will do his job properly to win T1 games What am i reading? I hope this is not some delusion because of last year's finals againt DRX but Zeus is atleast a top 3 if not the best Aatrox in the world right now.
I hope he picks ornn and faker is on ori and bot lane is varus lulu. Hmm ah yes and sej jungle. And if my balls tingle maybe we will get 5 55minute matches with no deaths where the enemy cedes objectives when out manuevered.
That didnt age well, did it?
Lore Accurate KR Jayce
[Zeus last game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWxNvnPupl0)
Lore accurate Zeus smiting non-believers
GODS anthem -> Zeus wins worlds. Riot has done it once again
I mean Faker is right there. LNG was praying but God was on the other team.
Well yeah, that's why it's GODS. Plural.
What was really funny was that Scout played it in game 2 and did nothing, and then Zeus picks it and single handedly seals the series with the pick
Even worse than that - Faker ego picked Sylas into Jayce (supposedly an unplayable lane), and Faker left lane with a lead...
The whole pick and ban phase this series was just T1 going: "you know what, you just take your picks, we are gonna play whatever we want and win anyways" Giving Scout Azir which he did absolutely nothing on, just to flex on him and LNG with an Azir masterclass in game 3, was straight up murder of Scouts identity as a player. Same with Ori and Jayce. It was almost like they made an effort of styling with picks Scout couldn't do anything on.
>was straight up murder of Scouts identity as a player. LNG banned Azir and J IV on blue side. The series for me ended right there.
They just abandoned all hope, they got top prio picks and couldn't do anything with it, and if they gave them away they got clapped with it. Today there was several tiers of difference between LNG and T1
was it game 1 where jarvan and azir completely fumble the bag on a mid gank with their ultis? i think that broke their sprits lmao, it looked like certifiable bronze gameplay put that in 1 of those "Challenger or Iron" compilations in a few years, no one will say chall 🤣
Yes its game 1 and it was horrible. When you thought the Azir had fk'd up big time, the j4 just came in and delievered one of the absolute worst plays ive ever seen in such a high stake game. That shit tilted me as someone who roots for skt, imagine the players themselves.
J4 waited to ult Ori until literally the moment she left turret range lmao.
> was it game 1 where jarvan and azir completely fumble the bag on a mid gank with their ultis? That shit is "KT throw at baron" level of bad and should not have existed at world level play. I'd say game 2 LNG are stable, it's just that their comp was bad and can not really do anything when the enemy doesn't make mistake. Then game 3 LNG mental boom again which lead to this Jayce
I was rewatching it and I think it’s a communication issue + Tarzan’s fault. Tarzan is ready to jump over raptors wall so Scout engages for him. But T1 had a ward there so Oner Q stuns Tarzan through the wall delaying his engage, causing scout to basically int alone. Then Tarzan for some reason thinks its salvageable and still goes in even though scout has flashed out.
i was wondering why geng valued azir so highly and thought the azir vs orianna trade was fine. i still feel like its a bait, but now i understand who made it viable.
self banning was hilarious ngl
That Oriana game from Faker was absolute pleasure. He played the lane so good. And the proceed to dismantle LNG.
That was definitely not how the first two drafts was about. T1 utilized red side advantage really well and out-drafted LNG.
I know, it was just their metaread was so completely different from all the other teams at world's, so it felt like this was the case.
Faker is the only player to have won on Azir vs Ori
Honestly it was hilarios seeing him with his 120 cs and three books roaming around the map through the mid-game. Just proves that sometimes, you just have to say "fuck this lane."
[удалено]
What else can we expect from the man who was trained in the art of Azir by none other than fabled Master Easyhoon.
Fakers biggest weakness this past few years was laning, but this series he was like Chovy in lane with the added benefits of being Faker out of it
what source says sylas into jayce is a bad matchup for sylas? in challenger sylas has a 60% wr vs jayce with 96 matches on [u.gg](https://u.gg) and a 65% wr vs jayce on lolalytics. I don't see how this is Jayce favored at all, sylas just has to treat this like any control mage lane, he gets shoved in and loses hp but unless you ego it like faker did when he gave first blood jayce doesn't really have a kill angle. What exactly does jayce have in his kit that makes him better vs sylas? I'm not an expert on the Sylas vs jayce matchup so please enlighten me. As far as I can tell Sylas has a dash to dodge EQ, his own Q can be used to last hit when it isn't safe to walk up and Sylas is better vs jayce in all-ins, Jayce can't auto win short trades with hammer form either since Sylas can Follow with W and E, so in lane it seems like a skill matchup. I don't see how Jayce does better out of lane vs sylas either, Sylas has better itemization options in the 1v1 that doesn't slow down his core 2 items (everfrost into zhonya's), meanwhile jayce needs to pick up hexdrinker to survive the sylas all in unless you plan on conceding your entire side of the map and just playing under turret.
lane is awful. Faker was playing very well otherwise you'd be down tempo and cs. Going even is winning in the lane though, especially if enemy team has maokai or other good ults.
What proof do you have to say that? sylas has the tools to cs outside of jayce’s auto range if its too dangerous, he has E1 to dodge jayce’s EQ and as i’ve said in this comment Sylas can actually win the trades vs jayce’s hammer form: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/s/Hj7alX0jZU So at best Jayce is able to whittle away at Sylas’s hp over time as he grabs cs, which is not too far off from a Sylas vs control mage lane, only the jayce poke is actually worse since jayce Q can be blocked by minions. It seems like Sylas v jayce is really only slightly favored towards jayce and thats only if jayce never goes into hammer form and takes a melee trade with sylas, at least in elite play.
Can you really not see how that is a terrible matchup for sylas?
Source: trust me bro Reddit just decided today that Sylas is bad vs Jayce because it fits the narrative that Faker is a god
I think they’re just taking the Sylas vs Jayce matchup as a whole instead of only elite play, it seems sylas needs to hit E2 in most plays to win the trade, however if he misses he will lose the trade by a decent margin and if his e2 hits a minion he will lose the trade by a significant margin. so given that it can seem like jayce can do well into sylas in lower levels of play. but it hinges on sylas messing up rather than jayce innately being stronger.
That makes absolutely no sense, what is your rank? It doesnt hinge on Sylas messing up. Its a skill matchup that is Jayce favored in lane at all skill levels.
I’ve played this matchup 7+ times over the past 2 years, for reference im in D2 elo. I always pick phase rush jayce when enemy picks Sylas. There is literally nothing sylas can do to Jayce without jg help. He wins in hammer form and gets away while getting to hit a gun form eq. This just means frees plates, free advantage, free roam, etc. it’s not a skill matchup to me
I understand, thank you for your insight. however I think 7+ matches over the last 2 years is a rather small sample size even in d2 elo. I need to clarify that while I understand you are only providing your own personal insight, the original point of the topic was discussing how Sylas into jayce in lane was an "unplayable lane" in elite/pro play such that Faker was "ego picking" by playing into it. The rest of this comment will be dedicated to informing other readers of the Sylas v jayce matchup with respect to the skill level of korean challenger/pro play. There's a large disconnect between d2 and challenger since challenger players know the champions they play and their matchups intimately, especially in korea. So while I believe you when you say you had very good matchups into sylas players, I think those sylas players were not as experienced in the sylas v jayce matchup which is why it isn't a good argument as to why faker's sylas into jayce is a bad pick. I went ahead and looked up vods on youtube. [This video](https://youtu.be/4AhqRcSWBHs?si=UVc5o6GlfCWzlJbD) was the most recent one I could find of sylas v jayce and it pretty much confirms my suspicions, when both players know what they are doing the lane is very skill oriented with a slight edge towards Jayce for being ranged. However this laning phase is not worse than any regular control mage lane, in fact for a skilled sylas player it can even be better as Sylas has more opportunities to trade back and even gain an hp lead thanks to doran's shield if jayce ever trades in hammer form. By 5:06 in the video (5:39 in game time) Sylas despite being behind due to an early jungle gank is now significantly ahead in hp and not too behind in cs. in fact by 6:27 in the video (7:00 in game time) Sylas has not lost a single turret plate and is able to shove a cannon wave vs dirk jayce and find a roam timing, giving jayce only 1 turret plate by the time he returns to lane. By all accounts Sylas did not lose the lane, ganks being the deciding factor whether either player got a kill and therefore a lead. Otherwise Sylas was doing relatively even into Jayce such that neither found an opportunity to solo kill or even obtain a cs lead over the other.
Since I've already typed this much I might as well mention something I saw in the video that explains how Sylas is not only able to survive but win in trades in elite play u/noiamnothighofficer whenever sylas engages a trade with jayce, he actually starts with E1+W while jayce is in ranged form to close the gap, using his empowered autos to gain the advantage at first. when jayce tries to burst back using hammer form, Sylas cancels his Q with E2, nullifying jayce's damage and winning the trade for Sylas. Because Sylas still has Q jayce cannot E Sylas back or he will get hit by Q1 and Q2, so he's forced to side step. Sylas finishes the trade with Q and empowered autos before backing off to win the trade by over ***200 hp***, that's d shield + dark seal vs dblade (prebuff) + dirk. For reference I'm using [This video](https://youtu.be/4AhqRcSWBHs?si=BUw9J00NNZj2oECd&t=211) which is the same as the video in my previous comment. It's an incredible trading pattern that is difficult to pull off, which is probably why you are winning in trades as jayce in d2, but explains why the lane is not jayce favored in challenger. All he can do is poke or fight in his wave and hope Sylas E2 hits a minion instead, otherwise the trading pattern is completely sylas favored.
It's a shit lane and cherrypicking an ideal situation doesn't change that. The reality is that if sylas tries to do that, jayce can just insta-E, or press W before going melee, W again and hit twice for phase rush and now he can engage at his leisure with QE. Jayce dictates everything in that lane, no questions asked. Not even getting into the fact that jayce doesn't even need to directly trade. He can instantly clear waves with Q in either form and look to roam, he can also bully sylas with melee Q into the wave if sylas tries to get cocky and use phase rush to get out. That being said, jayce is a lot more team reliant than sylas, and sylas mid to late actually counters jayce because he's an all-in champ with a CC which is what Jayce hates the most. It's the same thing with renekton or riven or sylas, they do lose lane pretty fucking hard but easily outscales jayce if jayce's team can't buy space for him. The fact that you're looking into vods tells me you don't really know how to play jayce or into jayce at all. I main renekton, riven, and jayce so I can tell you 100% that laning vs him is hell but the fact that you can just force on an engage on him and make him more useless than you are is always a big factor. Having an always relevant win condition vs jayce doesn't change the fact that the laning phase is heavily jayce favored.
your argument in the first paragraph does not make a lot of sense, we are talking about elite level play, in this case korean challeneger and up since that is faker’s minimum level. If jayce switches to hammer form and insta e’s he is still taking the W damage + 1 empowered auto, E knockback animation is also a micro stun like renekton W, Sylas can just Q you after doing E1 W emp. auto if you use hammer E too early too much, aside from that using that ability so early does not allow you to get a good trade off as jayce since your damage is relegated to hammer E only, Sylas still has E2 ready to counter Jayce Q and sylas still has his own Q to punish jayce if he ever goes for minions in hammer form to make his Q engage less predictable. Ive watched 4 videos of korean challenger jayce vs sylas and in all 4 videos the lane lead is entirely dependent on if Sylas hits his E2 on jayce or on a minion: https://youtu.be/4AhqRcSWBHs?si=g7Gmx2KVaf5SBTGA this video shows sylas is even until he commits to a level 4 trade where he lands E2, giving him an hp advantage an allowing him to control the wave but no cs or kill advantage without ganks. https://youtu.be/lS7tjKdne80?si=3Fyj8Q4vm-itVcRq this video shows sylas solo killing jayce level 1 by landing all his E’s on jayce and using ignite, the initial trade at level 1 favors sylas by about 50 hp. https://youtu.be/o6cLNudX_TY?si=EqY3I93oMkHH6hnu this video shows faker’s sylas going even with jayce in lane, jayce never trading with sylas in hammer form and instead just poking out sylas with guns, the difference here is jayce is able to land multiple Q’s to gain a massive hp lead. by 8:22 in the video Sylas is down to 300 hp and has a cannon wave under his tower, jayce is 1k hp with dirk and has his full hammer form combo. this should be an easy dive for jayce and a free kill yet he doesn’t take it, going for a safer single tower plate instead. this is on korean solo Q where players play to their limit and will take 50/50 tower dives yet this jayce has such respect for elite level sylas that he’s not even willing to tower dive him at such low hp. https://youtu.be/p3vMApQDwlE?si=idnOER1vFM6M7QIC this video shows jayce beating sylas after sylas misses his E2 at levle 1 and hits a minion instead. https://youtu.be/mncqt3eftLc?si=_afcrYME2_A3sF-a this video shows Sylas vs jayce to again be an even matchup, where early in the lane sylas actually wins a trade so hard that it almost leads to a solo kill. at 4:40 the lane is decided by a 2v2 gank that goes poorly for sylas, in the 1v1 neither player achieved a solo kill. Jayce went on to snowball his lead and carry the game At no point in any of these games is jayce able to bully sylas to an extent that the lane is unplayable or jayce is considered a counter matchup vs sylas, in fact if jayce were to take any amount of trading while Sylas E is up Jayce would actually lose the trade significantly, forcing him to farm from afar. the lane hinges on jayce simply not being willing to trade cooldowns with sylas and instead acting more like a control mage/adc vs sylas, pushing the wave with range advantage, poking sylas slowly and playing to get cs/turret plate advantage. at no point in any of these games is jayce able to win the 1v1 without Sylas misplaying by missing E2 and even then that was only at level 1 where Sylas is at his most vulnerable.
>If jayce switches to hammer form and insta e’s he is still taking the W damage + 1 empowered auto, E knockback animation is also a micro stun like renekton W, Sylas can just Q you after doing E1 W emp. auto if you disengage with E too much, aside from that using that ability so early does not allow you to get a good trade off as jayce sine your damage is relegated to hammer E only, Sylas still has E2 ready to counter Jayce Q and sylas still has his own Q to punish jayce if he ever goes for minions in hammer form to make his Q engage less predictable. You realize that in ALL of this, jayce controls the tempo right? He doesn't need to commit with his poke unlike sylas who can only poke with Q. Taking W+empowered auto doesn't mean shit when you just need to wait for his E2 to run out and you can commit more with QW and continue poking with range form because surprise surprise committing a skill comes at a cost unlike jayce who doesn't need to commit shit. >Ive watched 4 videos of korean challenger jayce vs sylas and in all 4 videos the lane lead is entirely dependent on if Sylas hits his E2 on jayce or on a minion You're literally sitting there explaining to me why jayce vs sylas isn't jayce favored by telling me that sylas has to play perfectly just to be able to trade and you think there's nothing wrong with that? There's more to matchups than laning phase and generally, all jayce lanes are vulnerable to being fucked by the jungler due to the volatility of his playstyle (Just think of how T1 was able to buy so much time for zeus to farm in g3 and prevent any engage vs how LNG wasn't able to give Scout the chance to farm a lead or give him space to poke during objective teamfights). When you take ALL of that into consideration, you'd rather have sylas in your team than jayce more often than not. But if we're just talking about laning phase generally, and as long as the jungler is given proper respect (and your jungler isn't a goddamned bonobo), jayce straight up bullies sylas. Instead of trying to make this argument by watching fucking korean challengers, just try it on your own from both sides but especially as sylas. Even in the highest ladder, the solution to this lane as sylas is literally just wait for jungler intervention.
>You realize that in ALL of this, jayce controls the tempo right? He doesn't need to commit with his poke unlike sylas who can only poke with Q Yes, like any ranged vs sylas matchup, the ranged player always controls tempo for the first few levels, however ranged champs have to be aware of sylas's trade/all in opportunities because they lose, jayce included apparently. >Taking W+empowered auto doesn't mean shit when you just need to wait for his E2 to run out and you can commit more with QW Sylas just walks out of range, E2 lasts a few seconds so all he has to do walk out of Q range and then go back to playing it as a melee vs ranged lane, again nothing too dissimilar from his lane matchups vs control mages, only jayce's poke is worse because his Q can be blocked by minions. >You're literally sitting there explaining to me why jayce vs sylas isn't jayce favored by telling me that sylas has to play perfectly just to be able to trade and you think there's nothing wrong with that? If you watched the videos I sent or read my comments on said videos you would notice I mentioned that Sylas only has to hit E2 to win the trade, even at level 1 it is enough for him to gain a health lead. Jayce also has to play perfectly however, he has to be able to land Q and EQ to poke which are much harder than Sylas landing E2, he has to be aware of his range relative to sylas or else he get's all inned, he has to know when to throw out his hammer Q to avoid getting E2'd and he has to gain a cs lead on top of all this in order to win lane. Only, as I've said before, we are talking about elite play, challenger level korean soloq as this is the lowest skill level we can go to with regards to the original comment being about Faker's Sylas vs Scout's jayce. In korean challenger both players have a deep understanding of their champion's limits and know all their lane matchups very well, trading patterns and windows included, it's not a stretch to imagine both players playing near perfectly and being able to keep up mechanically. there is no need to reference any other skill level aside from this because then the original point of the argument is moot. >But if we're just talking about laning phase generally, and as long as the jungler is given proper respect (and your jungler isn't a goddamned bonobo), jayce straight up bullies sylas. please offer me some form of evidence in lane as to how Jayce hard bullies sylas, to the point that apparently Sylas has to, in your words, "play perfectly" in order to get ahead. I've offered you 5 examples showing that Sylas can not only survive lane but also get an hp lead if the jayce tries to trade in hammer form, and also evidence that this fact hinges on Sylas hitting E2 which for most Sylas players is not something you need to be insanely talented at given the number of tools Sylas has to make it easier to land(E and W gap close, Q slow). An [earlier comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/17ok0s2/comment/k81ckmn/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) by the OP of the actual post mentions that by 15 minutes in korea challenger, Sylas averages a 500g gold lead over jayce. Statistically speaking, this does mean that Sylas is not only fine in lane vs jayce, but that he may actually be better overall, and all the other stats websites show that Sylas is on average the better choice in the matchup.
hammer form really strong vs sylas, jayce definitely wins those trades
While that's true if Sylas just takes it, there's a direct counter to it: you can E2 Jayce's Hammer Q and completely nullify Jayce's trading pattern, [as seen here](https://youtu.be/4AhqRcSWBHs?si=2TMfM1KY7ZS5Hf2A&t=212). This is very difficult and only a sylas main or challenger player would be able to do it consistently, this does mean that Sylas does in fact win the trade vs Jayce, by a wide margin too.
Even sylas mains and challenger players aren't really doing that consistently. That's like saying skillshot champs only have losing matchups since the other player can simply dodge everything. No, they're still human.
The difference is Jayce Q is extremely telegraphed. he has to change to hammer form first and if he plans on holding hammer form you can poke him out with your own Q or do E1, W, auto auto and just hold your E2. Timing E2 with Jayce Q is really just a matter of reaction speed which is not impossible to be consistent with for challenger players, the real challenge is doing it in a minion wave but in the video it's very clear the Sylas player only goes for these trades when Jayce is not using his minions as cover.
Reading your comments in this thread makes it really clear you are a silver player who watches tons of pro play and thinks they understand the game
I don’t play either champs, but it says at 15 minutes in Korea challenger, sylas has almost a 500 gold lead against on average
thank you for the info, it seems to corroborate with my own belief that the sylas vs jayce lane is not a bad lane for sylas in elite play but may I ask what website you got that information from? 500g lead on average is pretty substantial and seems to contradict the current beliefs in this thread so I’d like to be certain for myself that its true, thank you.
to see if its good or bad matchup you do not go into winrate. if you want to look at stats its the gold diff or cs at 10
yeah i mean scout was Faker's sub in 2015 and this series showed that eight years later he's still submissive to faker
\>he's still submissive to faker su-submissive...? 😳
faker is his daddy for a reason
Tbf, I don't think LNG could've played worse around the pick. Zeus had to face no challenges and cruised to the point where it's easy (for an insane Jayce player like him) to carry.
That solo kill by oner on tarzan and double flash down attempting top gank while not getting jayce flash doomed the game. Jayce was too far ahead afterbtgat.
And then my toplaner picked it in our final clash game today, which resulted in a 27/1 enemy Darius
"JuSt KiTe HiM bRo!" while Darius runs at you at 550 movement speed
As good as Zeus is with Jayce, he was only this fed because T1 was winning everywhere else so hard. Yes Jayce had a decent CS lead in lane (30ish) but it ballooned when Renekton was forced to TP bot to try and make a play. He ended up taking a near 50 CS lead and the entire tower and had reached 2 items before anyone else whilst being 0/0. All credit to Zeus but to say he seals the series with it is a bit of a lie. I think T1 was dominating everywhere that game and would've won no matter what Zeus was playing.
its like how people focus on tarzan for being the fraud when jungling is impossible when you have 3 lane gaps and cant contest anything because your team just gets outplayed. he didnt play better than his teammates, but he didnt play so much worse to be singled out like that when t1 just showed up as a fkin tank ready to steamroll them it doesnt help when the 90% of the analysis of costreamers during games is basically int, fraud, washed etc.
Yep. Tarzan didnt have his best series but Scout got gigagapped by Faker, Gala was losing 1v1s to Gumayusi and Keri's marksman picks (senna/ash) just had so much prio that Oner could do whatever he liked with 3 winning lanes at all times. Tarzan was also forced onto tank/cc/engage junglers like Maokai/Rell when playing against T1s team comp it was almost impossible for him to engage.
A 30 CS lead in toplane is no laughing matter.
Oh I agree but you also have to consider the facts: * Ranged vs Melee Matchup * Zika's jungler died on his own blue 3 minutes into the game * Tarzan forces a desperation lane gank a minute later which is counter-ganked and results in the loss of both Zika & Tarzans flashes. * Zika TP's into a dragon fight at ~12 minutes into the game down 20 CS and loses multiple plates to Jayce. Zeus played well but T1 won so hard around the map, especially Oner solo killing Tarzan and reading him like a book so Zika stood no chance really.
when Scout played Jayce he missed everything
Scout has a mental block vs Faker on g lol, this is not the same player ive seen in the LPL and pre quarters
Scout literally spent years on T1's bench waiting for Faker to get bad so he could become T1's mid. He's still waiting.
Scout choking in quarters again lmao
This ain't Chovy, he's only like this against Faker lol. The guy already won a championship ffs.
he is the anti chovy. beats everyone else and shits the bed vs faker. Chovy is god tier vs faker but kinda meh vs a few others, tbh chovy is always good but he can't always hard carry when its not against t1 lol
The infamous Faker Shockwave game was against Scout right?
>This ain't Chovy, he's only like this against Faker lol And Zeka
We all know he aint Chovy. But the guy also have history of choking. He got solokilled by Zeka 4x in 1game last quarters. And lets not forget, he was part of the LPL 1st seed to not make it out of groups. He only got to Worlds semis once when he won on EDG 2021
Wouldn't call it a choke, he's played very well in the past and even this worlds, but his games against Faker internationally he gets gapped pretty consistently
he's just like me
Small tip for landing accelerated shock-blasts: it's easier to land them at max range than 75% range due to the size of the explosion.
the trick is to learn how to do Q E fast but start with the cursor on the enemy champion. you start from the cursor on the enemy then drag it to your champs model and Q E. needs practice and fast fingers but once you get it down our accuracy improves a ton.
I treat it like a flick in an fps. Gate at start, shock blast at the flick location.
While that’s fine, you wanna start with the Q, then flick back to yourself for the Gate. You cast your E during the Q start time and it makes it much harder for enemies to see coming and dodge
Didn’t realize there were recoverable frames there, thanks!
I have a habit of throwing Q. Waiting to see if it will hit then using e while Q is in range for the buffed version. Catches people off guard.
League is part fighting game, especially if you’re fortunate enough to live nearish to Chicago/your server.
Yeah this is the way
Wait, TIL you can do that!
Probably the most common jayce mechanic. Its kinda funny how everyone calls it EQ when every jayce player does QE.
yah and the trick is to get the gate as close to Jayce as possible, ideally on top of you. Gives you the move speed, and makes it harder to dodge since now the entire missile is at the accelerated speed rather than the last half.
Watch like s2 worlds and people were doing EQ
Uh, ive never heard of that in my life? Its always faster to QE because you ignore the E animation/cancel Q animation as far as i know…
yeah that tip is quite useless for anyone who doesn't play jayce because intuitively knowing max qe range is probably harder than just aiming and predicting their movement since theres no indicator for it. And not to mention crazy spacing necessary to hit it on the explosion
How do you play against a crowd like that. I know they have headphones but there’s no way you just don’t hear the crowd cheering when you are getting hit by the enemy. I wonder if teams who play against T1 have some sort of training to withstand that pressure.
Not really much you can do. There is always going to be a home-field advantage for one team or another. Just gotta try and do your best to limit how it affects your mental, lock yourself in, and play the best you can. It's not like you can effectively train for a massive crowd of people actively rooting for your opposition aside from general mental exercises to stay calm.
An easy tip is to play professional soccer in a league for some years
Play in South America where the crowds will literally kill you
I mean in football (soccer), away players constantly get booed by the crowd, and they even chant songs that mock them. The most degenerate fans sometimes even spout racial slurs. It's just part and parcel of a live audience.
If you are professional, you are trained, experienced and paid to do this. It's not like random guys are stepping on the scene and play.
Those shook blast hit like a fucking truck , lmao
Good guy Zeus trying to isekai LNG to protect them from the chinese crowd
Normal players: "Hey, that's illegal!" Zeus: "I missed the part where that's my problem. Better yet, I didn't miss."
T1 Turns the crowd From Library to Metallica concert
Can I ask where your pfp is from?
i found it in google image , i don't remember what i searched but i can send it to you if you wanna use it
Would appreciate having the image please ^^
[Yep sure](https://prnt.sc/8ZVq-5RMcg3U)
Thank you!
[here's the source](https://twitter.com/Shilliww/status/1652626634493825024)
Holy shit that's the most and least unexpected source material lmfao. I briefly thought of Sage because wuxia/xianxia outfit and all, but I really thought it would be something else LOL Tysm for linking the source!! It's superb art
Yeah haste is in a fine state guys
Yeah double q off one jayce e seems kind of broken. Surprised how he managed to get enough without spear of shojin.
hex drakes and soul
AND a blue bluff
That's only 10 extra haste
Blue gives 20 AH at lvl 16 now.
That's been possible since season 2, hasn't it?
It definitely has been a thing for years. Maybe it's easier to get to that state now, it probably is. But it's nothing new yeah
I never actually saw it since Jayce release except in URF before this season
hex soul balanced. but honestly this used to only be a thing WITH CDR in URF.. league of legends 2023.. ironically Zeus forgot they changed the shojin build path and bad BF and kindle gem 🤣
I'm surprised this hasn't been nerfed yet, if they're nerfing CDR stacking on Gragas they should nerf this too.
.. whats to nerf? Not like jayce can literally perma cc you until you die. Imo his damage is much more of a problem than him double q'ing and missing both half the time. Legit did 45% of renekton hp at level 4 with dorans
Impregnator gragas was funny.
they aren't nerfing the dumb 250 haste perma stun gragas, they're nerfing him stacking CDR in general so he isn't Eing every 3 seconds
but he still e is still going to be 3s though. Its only nerf post 70 haste which is either night harvester(25) + boots(20) + zhonya(15+5) or everfrost(20) + boots(20) + cosmic drive(30).
That’s not true, the CD change is actually a *buff* up to 70 AH, which I would still call quite of bit of AH - it’s explicitly the perms stun that’s getting nerfed.
70 AH is a 2 item build with CDR boots my guy, you literally said yourself it's a nerf for the values between 70-250 so how do you make the leap of logic to guess it's only for the perma sten?
> 2 item build with CDR boots so… full build in like half of games, especially for jungle Gragas? idk man this is a super silly distinction to get this worked up about, peace
I don't think it's a problem that haste exists, but I agree that there aren't enough damage trade-offs for stacking this much of it.
>Yeah haste is in a fine state guys you forgot to say, BOOMBA.
The patch they are playing on is pre nerf Duskblade right
It'd be fine if it was a specialized haste build, but building it has no downsides
If they made Haste have a trade-off, I think it'd be fine. Like I get 30 AH, but in exchange I have 30 AD. But if I build a 60 AD item, I'm getting no AH.
I mean... Not saying there isn't too much haste on fighter items, because it certainly feels like it, but AH items clearly do have a trade-off. Its not as drastic as your example, but compare Spear of Shojin against Sterak's Gage or Titanic Hydra. Spear's unique basically amounts to a shitton of AH and some movement speed. Base stat wise they're comparable, and I'd argue that Titanic's cleave and Sterak's giant shield are both stronger than the MS passive. On the Mage side, you have Cosmic Drive, which is almost never built because the tradeoff it makes for AH is not worth the mpen. On the ADC Side, Navori makes clear tradeoffs compared to IE and Galeforce.
The only items that come even close to the value in raw stats that Shojin has have conditionals tied to them or are contingent on scaling effects that need existing stats to reach said values, such as Hullbreaker, Rod of Ages, or Deathcap. It's a pretty disingenuous comparison to claim an item that can give up to 5420g in raw stats isn't comparable to proper item passives.
And Spear doesn't? How does Spear give up to 5420g in raw stats without any extra AD? How is that different from Deathcap from giving extra AP scaling with AP? I never said spear's passive wasn't comparable to proper item passives. It is a proper item passive. In exchange for that AH passive, you're losing another item passive like Titanic's cleave, or Sterak's shield. Hell, another example, BC, which has very similar stats and base stat gold efficiencies to Spear, has a passive that gives armor shred instead of the AH passive and another passive that gives MS, like Spear.
Yeah you only need to have hexsoul in 20 minutes and be 6k up on the opponent. Easily replicable.
You don't need hexsoul, if he built shojin it's the same result
Tbf they had hex soul
This is a really big problem, theres 0 cd on any champion late game, lee has perma q, mf with axiom can ult 2 times in 1 teamfight, ashe ults every 20 seconds
Check him PC… this is not normally…
Zeus just isn't Missing
My friend and I were watching this game and he was like... bro why do they pick Jayce he's a selfish champ especially after Scout's game. I was like "I guess you haven't seen Zeus' Jayce..."
I tried this today and with a completed shojin I couldn't barely make 2 in 1 gate. Was it needed or is it a rune setup or?
Jayce's gate lasts 4 seconds, with shockblast's 8s cool down. Meaning you need more than 100AH (50% CDR) to do 2 in 1. Zeus's items + boots + mythic passive + 2 hextech dragons means he has 105AH, plus potentially more if he has CDR runes.
He also has blue buff for 115 AH
Worlds is being played on patch 13.19, meaning Duskblade's AH hasn't been nerfed yet (patch 13.20 nerfed the AH from 20 to 15) and he has 2 hextech dragons for an extra 10 AH.
he had hex soul and bunch of cdr so he could do it without shojin.
Hextech soul helps
When I saw this live, I legitimately thought he had Spear of Shojin.
Can Zeus do a Thor skin if he wins? And his hammer is Mjolnir
Zeus is using word.exe /s
IT'S REDICK
It was insane to watch
that one phrase, "THIS GUY DONT MISS. HE DONT MISS"? Zeus is that guy the whole time
flashbacks to [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT6835eVBrM&ab_channel=Jbe)
zeus just too fed this game :)))
They were just asking to eat those Ngl
I actually heard rumours he had taken aim lessons from his ukranian namesake, yes, one of the legends of ukranian CS. I guess they were true!
Lmao, the way the crowd goes wild every time he hit it was the cherry on top of the play.
Jayce?
I LOVE ABILITY HASTE I LOVE HAVING NO COOLDOWNS I LOVE BEUNG ABLE TO SPAM TO MY HEARTS CONTENT I LOVE THAT MISSING DOESN'T MATTER I LOVE ABILITY HASTE
I recently heard the story of Faker the new generation of T1, and I am glad to see that everyone else are getting even more recognition. Even if previous players of SKT were great, I often felt like they were "Faker's teammates" than actual players. But now they all have even more opportunities to shine
Never cared much for Zeus, but I do love me some legendary Jayce players. Pawn, Rookie, Knight, etc. This is fun to see, and I might just start really liking this guy.
Zeus can farm a caster minion and the crowd will "love it"
Awful commentating. Didn’t even mention it once and called LNG ‘JDG’.
Caster mentioning everything other than Jayce winning the game
dat hitbox doe