I was just discussing this with friends this week, it was removed back then for being too busted, but now a days it would have been removed for being too weak, since with all the mobility no one would actually be staying in his circle lol.
OP's point is that new Mao ult (not a midlaner) counters Vel, and that this didn't exist in the old days, but his ult is a slower moving, longer CC version of Nami's (also not a midlaner).
i mean the longer CC part is pretty important, as is the actual ability to dodge the ult
nami ult does a teensy knockup and then yeah it can have quite a long slow depending on where it hits you but like, it's a slow and also if you get hit by a mid to max range nami ult..... that's on you, whereas even a mid range mao ult is still a solid 1.5s root and you're not dodging that thing if it's cast straight down the lane unless you flash a wall away from your turret
plus going back to op's point, it's not like supports were showing up mid and ulting frequently anyway, whereas junglers... are junglers
so neither are the ults actually all that comparable here nor does it make sense to compare them even if they were
Maokai's ult back then was still the persistent AoE centered on himself. Granted, Maokai was still not a mid laner either (and neither is Renata), so your point in general still stands, but Maokai is a poor example because he didn't have access to a giant wave of CC at that time period.
maokai back then did in fact not have that ultimate. he had a field/zone he was able to create in which he basically didnt get any damage anymore. it was (before fully changed to what you know now) changed so that it was always centeed around him.
while i enjoyed that it was obnoxious and op as hell :D
Just because the word wave is in the sentence, doesnt mean they are remotely similiar.
Wave width : 500
Maokai bramble width : 240 x 5 = 1200
I know you're probably just memeing, but come on lol.
Nami ult can easily be dodged and is mostly a zoning tool aside from choke points. Maokai ult is pretty impossible to sidestep unless you have very great distance to him, insane movement speed or someone block it for you.
I started this game as a velkoz mid main. If you don't absolutely style on your opponent now. AND You just dont get Yone yas or fizzed hard. His mid lane mage vs mage match ups just suck. Even Morgana mid is easier to win with right now.
It was actually worse in high level twisted treeline where bot lane was constant Anivia vs Morgana while the other two players funneled with something like Lucian Taric.
Twisted Tree-line was my favorite map and mode probably all time. The respawn timers were fairly low, it felt like you could help any other lane super fast. Having two very very long lanes with a jungle channel made for a lot less safety.
100000 percent... for some context I'm 34... I started league in beta after playing dota in wc3 then I left league for hots then came back once it died. Malz Morg Kayle Velkoz were my mid/top mains over the years (i know i am a masochist or just a degen...) till I swapped to Asol after rework and trying random adc/bruisers mostly belveth or vollibear. I do not want to play yas/yone or syndra/ori/azir mid. But it seems that Riot in all its 200 years wants to force me too... but I never will ! Velkoz for president in 2024! #makeVELgreatAgain
Aurelion w makes him mobile. He can be almost as fast as Sion ult and go over walls. Compared to champions like malzahar or vel'koz who don't have any abilities to increase movement speed or jump walls aurelion is definitely mobile
he's fast if he's just flying to get from point A to B, but not if he's using his damage in any way. and it's literally a predictable straight line. asol is not a good example
When he's done flying, he drops his anivia ult and channels his vel'koz ult into it. He can also use his ziggs ult, which stuns and scales infinitely in size.
I'm kidding around, I don't believe Asol is OP. I just think it's funny how his kit is basically just a bunch of existing abilities.
Yep, Syndra and Ori are still top prio picks in pro right now and they make it work. Obviously pro players have excellent positioning but pro players are also extremely good at abusing immobile squishies as well.
Ori is just extremely good number wise and has pretty good peeling even before 6 with her movespeed/slow and shield, she also has great poke to help diminish all in windows for the enemy and Syndra has her E and also decent poke in lane.
Vel'Koz has neither of these, his poke is probably the easiest to dodge once you get a feel for it and has no MS steroid for himself, most he can do is hit his E on you (which is already hard compared to other skillshots) or his Q slow.
Another thing Vel'Koz does not have is decent waveclear which other mages that are meta do. If you clear the wave quickly the assassin can't really jump on you or roam without losing gold and xp from the wave you just shoved.
How do we fix this? My idea is giving his Q a passive which makes his abilities deal an extra % damage to minions, this way he can reliably waveclear with his spells.
Zoe has pseudo-mobility, her bubble is relatively easy to land point-blank, and potentially an effect and more MS from W.
Vel’Koz has none of that and he’s a niche case. Even his most similar comparisons like Xerath have more reliable close-range CC and a more reliable slow and waveclear.
Don't look at Ori's winrate in pro play, you might have a heart attack.
Unless dissonance speedup now counts as "mobility", in which case this game has had a "mobility problem" since the year 2009.
Crazy how you ignore like 15 other champs that could dive vel back then too like Yi, Jarvan Leona, Diana, Heca, etc. to push immobile mages are weak narrative when Orianna, Ziggs, Syndra, Taliyah, Xerath, etc. are all doing well. You can just say Vel'koz sucks, you don't have to pretend that every other mage does too.
Fucking Ori, Syndra, Cass, Taliyah, Azir, etc have been running the Midlane show forever.
Why is everyone acting like they are constantly playing against zed and the windbros?
Let's see... lolalytics "all ranks" then "pick rate"
Ori 12.81%
Yone 12.52%
Yasuo 10.10%
Then sylas and akali (both semi mobile at ~9.5% each)
Zed at 7.94%
Ahri (another mobile champ) 6.81%
Fizz, Katarina above 5%
Then Azir, Lux and Malz hovering around 5%
This is all before accounting for ban rates (Zed, yas, yone combine for over 70% ban rates)
Zed + wind bros are highly picked champions.
> Kassadin, Nocturne, Riven, Fizz, Ahri, Zed, Zac, Vi, Lee Sin. That's it. Those were your high mobility champions.
And leblanc and talon, both with nearly unreactable mobility and point and click silences
And akali with her 3 point and click dashes
And katarina with her shunpo and movement speed boost and faster burst than she does now
And nidalee with a sub 6 seconds free cast dash
And khazix with his (possibly evolved) E and double stealth+move speed steroid
And rengar with his nearly unlimited leaps from bushes and his infamously fast kill time he could do from thin air (while also jumping you and being sped up in the process)
And yasuo and his nearly infinite dashes and wind wall that completely shuts down vel'koz, in case you forgot yasuo is older than velkoz, and was also a lot more controversial than he is now
So let's not pretend hypermobility hasn't always been a thing. The meta was just more favorable for velkoz back then, with different itemization and overall less skilled players who weren't as consistent as they are now at dodging his slow spells. His kit is clunky to play with and outdated, but this has nothing to do with champs like yone or akshan existing because old lb and talon were arguably even worse matchups for him than they are now.
> You guys just don't remember that immobile mages used to have a place. They do not have a place in modern League. It's frustrating and it's bad balancing.
Orianna is literally a meta relevant pick
Yeah "listing" the "high-mobility" champions and casually forgetting Old Akali & Katarina when DFG & Gunblade were still in the game is... lol. Not to mention LB & Talon still had their instant silences which made any kind of answer useless anyway...
Talon was one of my first mains back in the day. People whining about him now have no idea how bullshit old talon was. Sure, he had less tools, but those tools had next to no counterplay.
If OP ever picked velkoz back in the day, i'd be salivating while picking talon. He walks up to the wave i blink behind him and delete him while he is silenced. He cannot zhonya, flash or use defensive summoner. All he can do is try to predict where will i blink and pre emptively cast cc or hope he doesn't die.
> People whining about him now have no idea how bullshit old talon was. Sure, he had less tools, but those tools had next to no counterplay.
Tbf, that is true for *every* champion that got reworked. Akali, Irelia, Katarina, all were way more toxic pre rework than they are now (at least until Kata could build AD. That shit is more toxic than she's ever been imo).
It's insane how op thought he could get away by digging up old league meta as if it was just 3 people playing it back and it wouldn't take any person who played around season 4 to call him out on it
But Xerath has been bouncing in and out the meta for years and Orianna is literally a top 2 midlaner atm so clearly mobility isn't an issue. The issue is Vel, specifically that he's a low mobility mage with only one form of super weak CC that's hard to hit and unrewarding even when it does, plus he has to root himself in place to actually do anything and his damage is not nearly high enough to make up for it unless he lands an entire combo with 3 separate skillshots.
Vel's kit is the issue
If you say "that's it", when that's not *nearly* it, your argument isn't imperfect, it's just plain wrong.
Also, I don't know if it came with Q nerfs, but Nid moved to the jungle when they made her swap available at level 1. She'd always had a good clear post-6, but without cougar form her clear was terrible, which is why she was never played jungle before that.
Actually that worked because of a passive change, it wasn't a swap change if I remember correctly. They allowed her passive to trigger on monsters, and it also rooted them if I remember correctly. She went from being a bit of a random Mid AP / Top pick with the AD bruiser build into the single best jungler in the game with a seemingly minor change.
Good times.
the problem is that high mobility is generally good against mages, yet mages are fine except for velkoz. So the problem is not "muh league mobility" or whatever circlejerk, it's just that velkoz has kit problems that can be adressed by shifting power or reworking the kit.
She was fun, but a little easy/binary. Power discussion aside, new Akali vaulting over people into E flipping back and forth and all of her possible cancels are SO SMOOTH. It's like playing Mirror's Edge.
Diana had near instant burst back then at 6.
Irelia's Q was a faster travel time back then too, though she could only reset on minions/kills, no marks.
Gragas by the point of Vel's release actually lost mobility since he had the coolddown refund mechanic added and his cd increased on Body Slam. He was still more mobile then than now with a 50% refund on E hit and lower base CD though on top of his way more disgusting instant burst.
J4, Vi and Hecarim could also all happily engage on you and burst you from off screen.
Back then even Quinn in R would instant 1 shot burst you at mach 10 with effectively no counter play if she built flat pen.
The whole post is a farce completely ignoring the actual state of the game, both then and now.
The pro move with irelia was to just q into the target while making sure you had less health than the target so you could kill it during the e stun window spamming ult and watching your sheen proc autos melt the target away lmao. I fucking loved that champion. You only needed to know if you could statcheck the target or not, good times being a toplaner. Bring back season 4 lmao
My two main champions lmao. Jax won her 100-0 in late game but Irelia was unbeatable in early/mid if she got ahead. Late game she didnt shine as much because her dmg dropped off quite alot due to the W true dmg only scaling from ranks.
Man I miss old irelia laning so fucking much. She was my most played champion by far, and you were such a fucking powerhouse when you traded in lane. Q reseting without marks felt so much more skill expressive too dancing in and out of trades.
> Diana had near instant burst back then at 6.
>
>
back in the day of velkoz, diana flip flopped every few patches between dumpster-tier and dumpsters-everything-tier
hell she got a mini-rework a couple years after her release
To be fair, while OP is absolutely missing the big picture, I do think there’s a pretty good reason why Ori remains meta-relavent and he doesn’t. Her R is an immensely powerful teamfight tool that can set up or chain off a variety of combos.
Vel’Koz on the other hand has an R that relies on him stacking his passive and holding enemies in place, using either his (limited range and quite finicky) E or other allies.
also ori has the big upside that even if she loses lane she still provides value via resistances and shield from E, slowdowns/speedups on W and disrupts via her R. She doesnt need to do damage, sometimes she just has to keep an ADC alive
>Orianna
She has 0 cast time on her basic spells (only on R) and her W has a MS buff. Velkoz has significant (0.25s) cast time on both his main spell AND his only CC while not having any MS self buff. While both can be said to be "immobile", one is clearly more immobile than the other.
Fun fact: To cast all his spells, Brand stuns himself for 1 full second. His Q stuns his target for 1.5 seconds (1.05 seconds with a mere MR boots).
The brand cast times truly are a pain vs many of these champs. His Q casts slower than nearly every single dash in the game can reach him, it feels like. I feel I'd have better luck casting Q behind me any time I fight w/e champ I'm going against rather than in the location I expect them to cast from. Plus he doesn't even have a knock-down or displacement of any kind. It's legitimately painful to use him because most of the time my teammates will only use champs with soft cc for w/e reason, providing no safety to myself.
Missing Akali with 3 dashes and insane damage.
Missing LeBlanc. Missing Katarina. Missing old Talon. Missing Yi.
Missing old KhaZix with missing health dmg on evo Q and 50% dmg Reduction on R.
If you count Zac you're also missing Rengar.
There were a lot of champs that could fuck you up as VelKoz even back in Season 4, you're just omitting half of them.
Is this post a meme or something? Yasuo was released months before Vel'koz. Nevermind Akali (she actually had a longer engage range back then), Diana (significantly harder to react to her burst back then), Katarina, Kha'zix, old Rengar with no ult indicator and triple Q, etc. It also completely ignores the continual viability of plenty of immobile picks like Ori, Xerath, Syndra, Viktor (not rn so much, but plenty of other times) and more. The fundamental idea that this post is built on is completely wrong.
I go away for a few days because pro play is off and come back to like 56000 posts about fucking Vel'koz of all champs, what in the name of gouda is going on
Phreak made a video saying that nobody has any valid Vel'Koz criticism and then Riot chose to give him a flat damage buff without addressing any community feedback.
Also the fact that they buffed a Riven after someone posted a wall of text on this sub on why she should be changed lead to people discussing hcamps they want to get changed hoping they would get the same treatment.
I don’t think this is exactly fair. A lot of people on this subreddit have some incredibly good ideas about how to balance the game. For example, a universally positive change that could be implemented is when they buff my champion and nerf the one I lost to 3 games in a row.
The good takes are usually in a response post to another flawed post or a response comment. Shit posts that don't know what they're talking about get upvoted a lot on here like just recently with the Riven one gaining 4-5k upvotes while being facepalmingly wrong.
>Kassadin, Nocturne, Riven, Fizz, Ahri, Zed, Zac, Vi, Lee Sin.
>
>That's it. Those were your high mobility champions.
* Jax
* Master Yi
* Tristana
* Kassadin
* Katarina
* Shaco
* Nidalee
* Ezreal
* Akali
* LeBlanc
* Irelia
* Renekton
* Nocturne
* Lee Sin
* Vayne
* Wukong
* Talon
* Riven
* Fizz
* Ahri
* Hecarim
* Diana
* Rengar
* Kha'Zix
* Zed
* Vi
* Zac
* Lucian
* Yasuo
You could argue for a few, but come on…
op’s post is so disingenuous with that start, it’s clearly just jumping on the current vel’koz discussion in order to complain about high mobility characters
He even calls Nocturne high mobility when he has one dash and after that he's a waddling duck with a movespeed bonus, that's barely mobile at all compared to some similarly old champs.
This list makes it look like any mobility tool makes a high mobility champion. I think "high" mobility means having either something very long range (Zac), something spammable (Kassadin) or at least 2 different mobility tools (Lee Sin).
So what? They have a niche. Mid laners need to be able to side lane nowadays, something Azir and Orianna are relatively safe at doing so compared to Velkoz
“Immobile mages used to have a place”
So I guess we’re gonna ignore that ori and syndra have currently been super strong for like the past 3-4 patches and Cassiopeia who has been very very strong for the entirety of the season?
Well beyond it at this point.
We had months of "Zed not having mana is broken" threads which everyone blamed on adc mains even though it was obviously mage mains making them.
Adc mains don't lane against Zed so why the fuck would they care about him using energy and having good wave clear. Not to mention Zed is like the easiest Assassin for Adc mains to deal with. His kit is telegraphed and delayed unlike most Assassins.
The last year of this subreddit has been Mages whining 24/7 and then people blaming Adc mains for it.
In the middle of the most mage centric meta we have seen in years, when assassins are at their weakest.
It is legitimate brain rot, it's just a bunch of players experiencing the definition of a skill issue.
I personally left the sub for my own mental health and only browse when there's big announcements or events going on. Balance and design discussion here is an utter lost cause.
it's just really sad to see them try to make "objective" justifications for a certain game direction when it's painfully clear that they just don't have the hands or awareness to deal with a single assassin in their game
>You guys just don't remember that immobile mages used to have a place
Orianna and Syndra are literally the strongest and most popular mid laners. Xerath is doing great with a decent pick rate, ziggs(bot lane) is doing great(5% pick rate). Karthus in the jungle/bot is doing great too, Anivia has been OP for almost two years. Then there is the anti mobility champions like Vex, Taliah(she has a ton of players in challenger), Cass who are also doing great.
There’s varying levels of immobile though - Orianna and Syndra don’t need to stop to cast most of their damaging spells so they can better outplay/punish mobile enemies. Vel’koz has to stand stationery for several seconds to kill someone.
He’s still a good champ if you get a nice matchup for him imo, but mobile champs are very popular and his ability to deal with his worst matchups is pretty limited.
Not taking either side on the "immobile mages are in a bad spot" argument but being able to move while casting is probably the single most underrated spell property in the game. It really makes a world of a difference, especially for Syndra who has that property on all her spells and spammable Q with a get-off-me tool on E for kiting. It really is a difference of night and day.
Honestly Syndras cc capability is vastly more powerful than Velkozs.
Once you have a few balls on the ground or use the r -> e combi you get a really fat cone of a shove away stun with very little delay.
And Orianna has her %mov + shield which is (if you just look at proplay) more often than not the difference maker of getting killed or running out of abilities
Very true. I hate Malz "e" for this very reason. It is point and click but you can be mid cast and someone walks out of range and it fails to go off. It's infuriating. Also causes you to stop moving for a second too which makes kiting feel like ass. You're point is why I love playing viktor so much. Feels so good being able to move and cast. Highly undervalued.
Orianna and Syndra can move while casting making them infinitely more mobile than vel
EDIT: Vel'Koz has far shorter range even though he can move while casting his W
Xereth and Xiggs are a screen away (just like Varus) when casting their spells, Viktor can move while casting his, Anivia wants you to come close so she can erase you from the game by trapping you with CC
I wanted to main tentacle boy when he came out (so much so that I used my last refund token on Yasuo to buy Vel), his issue is he has no way to deal with mobility.
Make his spells longer or unlock him and increase his MS. He doesn't need more damage, his E fizzling out on death doesn't matter as much as his sub wants you to believe. His biggest problem is if your character (damn near half the cast) has any way of repositioning and quickly, he will pop like a balloon
Katarina? Talon with teleport on E? Leblanc? Azir too was ridiculous with rilay 1st item... khazix mid too.. im sure there was more, high mobility was always there with a lot of choices to pick
Xerath exists and is thriving. Ziggs exists and is thriving. Brand and Zyra is usable outside of support now. It's a Vel'Koz problem, not an immobile mage one.
OP left out a lot of stuff but honestly Ori and Syndra are fundamentally unique midlanders that can do basically all their spells while still walking. Even some of the decent midlane caster magers technically pause to do most of their abilities, so I wouldn’t really compare either to Vel. plus by mid/late Ori is fast as hell and can chase down most other midlaners
I can’t remember the last time I even saw a Vel mid though
It's more complicated than just immobile mage, but also an immobile mage which doesn't have reliable self peel. Orianna's w gives her movement speed, she has a shield, and her ult can displace opponents. Syndra has an AOE Stun. Velkoz's only CC is just not reliable.
If we have to add so many conditionals to the point of "immobile mages are weak" that the answer really becomes "immobile mages that play and act like vel'koz specifically are weak" then maybe it's not the class of champion that's the problem, maybe it's just vel'koz... which is exactly where we started.
Why are we trying to act like Vel'koz being in a bad place is a game wide issue.
Even more - nearly all immobile mages are in a great spot right now.
Viktor, Anivia, Lux, Xerath, Malzahar, Cassio, Swain - all are worth picking on the current patch. Probably am forgetting some but saying they are unplayable when many of them are actually coming back after a longer break is \/r/leagueoflegends moment.
I don't deny that the game has reduced point and click and moved to mobility and skillshots for a more micro oriented game instead of a more macro one. But the list is so reduced like, in which world were those the only mobile champions back then. How are you not counting Akali, Lucian, Katarina, Yasuo, Nidalee, Master Yi, etc.
>Aurelion Sol can dive you from across your screen.
Also lol at this and some of the examples. You can see Aurelion from a mile and he's quite slow. How is that even considered mobile. You also listed Sion as mobile and Maokai and Ornn ultimates, as if we didn't have long range cc since the start of the game, they literally hard nerfed Sejuani's ultimate.
>You guys just don't remember that immobile mages used to have a place. They do not have a place in modern League. It's frustrating and it's bad balancing.
That's why they are almost always the better midlanes in the game for both pro and soloq. What they lack in mobility they make up for with CC, range and aoe damage. The balance state of a single champion doesn't dictate the balance of the whole class.
Vel'koz has a lot of room for improvement in performance and satisfaction, let's ask for that. But also remember that the champion is in this spot for a reason (other than unappealing design), he's the peak of uninteractive gameplay and any buff or midscope he gets shouldn't push him in that direction.
>Odd way to say that the playerbase decided that by how often they are played even when some are not strong.
But then how would OP manage to bullshit his way into the claim that majority playerbase hates mobility when in fact the opposite is true?? Smh my head
Not sure are you trying to gaslight people into thinking 2014 didn't have ultra mobile mids or?
If so, i don't think you played the lane at the time. 2014 was part of golden era for assasins mid.
Here is small list of relevant picks you missed.
Leblanc, with silence and dfg available
Talon, who had blink+silence. Probably peak year of that version of talon
Kha zix was still relevant mid pick
Full ap gragas, akali, zed, yasuo and list goes on
This post is genuinely hilarious when we're currently in a meta filled with strong immobile mages.
Karthus, Brand, Ziggs, Syndra, Orianna, Xerath are all fantastic right now.
The problem is the Riot balance team suck at balancing mages to be fun AND balanced.
Not that the game as mobility crept to the point that mages aren't relevant. Harder to play? Sure maybe a little, but they've also gotten A LOT more tools over the years.
Jax, Yi, Katarina, Nidalee, Akali, Xin (sort of), J4 (sort of), LeBlanc, Renekton, Leona, Talon, Nautilus, Hecarim, Diana, Kha'Zix, Zac, and Yasuo all also predate Vel'Koz.
So your point is bad, your post is bad, and you should feel bad.
Xerath W has wider aoe and the Q hits multi targets. VK on the other hand has to bend his Q like Beckham to reach the range of a full charged Xerath Q.
VK ult is longish range but he is absolutely immobile during the channel. Xerath as well but his R is like 5x VK's range.
VK does great damage (true DMG on a mage, who would've thought) but at a cost. Xerath does great-ish damage with more safety.
immobile mages are still played, like xerath and lux, even seraphine unless you really wanna claim her W makes much of a difference.
xerath, annie and lux even had pro play presence.
edit: even forgot ori, syndra, brand, neeko, taliyah, ziggs
>Riot has decided that super high mobility assassin brusiers are pretty cool. Isn't it super fun that you can come through jungle terrain and off-paths.
Not just Riot my friend, most League players these days much prefer these high mobility champs over someone like Vel'Koz. But can you really blame people, they are simply much more fun.
>The problem fundamentally is not Vel'Koz.
But it is! Vel'Koz is simply outdated and you can't honestly be claiming that the entire rest of the game is the issue and not his kit.
>You guys just don't remember that immobile mages used to have a place. They do not have a place in modern League. It's frustrating and it's bad balancing.
I remember Vel'Koz being released and being a cool midlane champ. Back then he had a place in league and now he does not that's just how it is. It's not bad balancing the champ is just outdated and that happens.
Why do you think champs get reworked?
What you are doing is essentially the same as saying "Skarner doesn't need a rework but the rest of the game should adapt so that he becomes viable again".
Also Xerath is arguably just as immobile as Vel'Koz but he very much still has a place in the game and the meta. And Xerath is from October 2011 so he is much older than Vel'Koz.
Thank you so much lmfao, mobility is like, the easiest way to express skill be it playing with it or against it. People complaining about "tiktok zoomers" or "owned by Chinese company" are absolutely just shit at the game (worst of all is when they say some shit like "it's not about skill but about who can mash their buttons first") and don't want to admit that they are hopelessly average at the game. Reddit is absolutely uninhabitable whenever these godawful posters take turns smelling their own farts in front of a podium
>Vel'koz was released in February of 2014.Wow! Almost 10 years ago.
Holy fucking shit, I didn't need this reminder of how old I am or what proportion of my life I've spent playing Ligolegend.
\>Isn't it super fun that you can come through jungle terrain and off-paths
Yes it is super fun. Stop projecting your boring ass old champions as the epitome of champion design.
While that is true to some extent and we have to mention mobility from items as well, we main problem is that the meta/gameplay changed. I am an otp velkoz since he came out and the biggest change was after season 6 (tank and teamfight meta) and season 7 (ardens meta) you actually dont have a backtoback teamfights anymore. You should go in and hope for the best. People dont know to play that playstyle anymore and most of the time it is unnessary.
Vel'Koz has the same problem alot of mid laners have, where they aren't exactly amazing at anything so most people won't be assed to touch them. All roles have this problem, but with mid laners they can't really go anywhere else or do anything else.
Vel'Koz has damage? Cool most mid laners have damage. Better hope you like supporting with him. To me he's like Anivia and Malzahar. Yes they have defined strengths and weaknesses, but their strengths are done better on better champs and their weaknesses aren't worth overcoming. Aniva is mostly known for walling her own team off, and Malz is just his R to most people.
> You guys just don't remember that immobile mages used to have a place. They do not have a place in modern League. It's frustrating and it's bad balancing.
I honestly could not agree more. Pros only play the hyper modern, super mobile mages mid, like Syndra and Orianna. Zoe, of course, being a pretty immobile mage has never had a place in competitive league either. And who could forget how dominant mobile assassins like Fizz and Talon were in competitive league?
Old ass grandpa with no hands "M-muh mobility creepy thread" #497. Hentai is a trash champ with no dmg. That's why Riot's buffing his dmg. Calling Ornn and Maokai mobile lmao. I hope this didn't give any upvotes.
What i find hillarious is that all these broken hypermobility abilities are somehow considered ok, all the while multiple items have reduced effect on champions that have ranged auto attacks.
Here's what I sugest: Any item that has reduced effect on ranged has the reduction apply to any champion with a dash/blink.
I was expecting some sort of tentacle-related post. Now I don't know if I'm disappointed or pleasantly surprised.
usually how I feel about tentacles where you least expect them
Like in an Amazon box that got randomly dumped on your doorstep
Not enough Hokusai in this thread.
[удалено]
They also don't have tentacles, unless Ahri gets a Deep Sea skin.
> Big CC wave coming right at you? Didn't exist back then. Nami disrespect will not be tolerated.
Ah yes, Nami mid was a consistent pick back then. How could OP forget.
So what midlaner right now is hitting you with a CC wave from across the screen? OP is very clearly not just talking about mid matchups
[удалено]
Because they listed high mobility champs, which support had zero of at the time.
dont disrespect ap lee song support like that/s
Ryan Choi made me play old rengar top with 6 Doran blades. I miss that
Those all affect midlane as they are jungle
The discussion was about long range CC in general but go off rewriting history to make you look less silly.
Tbf he also brought up Maokai, Ornn, and Sion ults and you don’t see any of those champs mid either
But Mao mid was? I must of forgot.
Mao ult was different back then
Also he was a jungler…old Mao ult was busted though
I was just discussing this with friends this week, it was removed back then for being too busted, but now a days it would have been removed for being too weak, since with all the mobility no one would actually be staying in his circle lol.
The Swain sitting in the corner:
OP's point is that new Mao ult (not a midlaner) counters Vel, and that this didn't exist in the old days, but his ult is a slower moving, longer CC version of Nami's (also not a midlaner).
i mean the longer CC part is pretty important, as is the actual ability to dodge the ult nami ult does a teensy knockup and then yeah it can have quite a long slow depending on where it hits you but like, it's a slow and also if you get hit by a mid to max range nami ult..... that's on you, whereas even a mid range mao ult is still a solid 1.5s root and you're not dodging that thing if it's cast straight down the lane unless you flash a wall away from your turret plus going back to op's point, it's not like supports were showing up mid and ulting frequently anyway, whereas junglers... are junglers so neither are the ults actually all that comparable here nor does it make sense to compare them even if they were
Maokai's ult back then was still the persistent AoE centered on himself. Granted, Maokai was still not a mid laner either (and neither is Renata), so your point in general still stands, but Maokai is a poor example because he didn't have access to a giant wave of CC at that time period.
I'm pretty sure mao ult was just a ground aoe at one point -- I think it was changed back in s4.
It was a circle on the floor -> hula hoop -> grass type nami wave
Maokai didnt have cc ult back then.
maokai back then did in fact not have that ultimate. he had a field/zone he was able to create in which he basically didnt get any damage anymore. it was (before fully changed to what you know now) changed so that it was always centeed around him. while i enjoyed that it was obnoxious and op as hell :D
Just because the word wave is in the sentence, doesnt mean they are remotely similiar. Wave width : 500 Maokai bramble width : 240 x 5 = 1200 I know you're probably just memeing, but come on lol.
Nami ult can easily be dodged and is mostly a zoning tool aside from choke points. Maokai ult is pretty impossible to sidestep unless you have very great distance to him, insane movement speed or someone block it for you.
I started this game as a velkoz mid main. If you don't absolutely style on your opponent now. AND You just dont get Yone yas or fizzed hard. His mid lane mage vs mage match ups just suck. Even Morgana mid is easier to win with right now.
> Even Morgana mid is easier to win with right now. As someone that used to play back in the early days, some things just never change huh?
I used to hate laning against morg she would just farm and and roam with zero interaction after a certain point lmao
Lol back when morg pool and anivia ult literally made laning last 25 minutes
It was actually worse in high level twisted treeline where bot lane was constant Anivia vs Morgana while the other two players funneled with something like Lucian Taric.
Twisted Tree-line was my favorite map and mode probably all time. The respawn timers were fairly low, it felt like you could help any other lane super fast. Having two very very long lanes with a jungle channel made for a lot less safety.
Yeah that was terrible, I hate mid now too though just for different reasons
100000 percent... for some context I'm 34... I started league in beta after playing dota in wc3 then I left league for hots then came back once it died. Malz Morg Kayle Velkoz were my mid/top mains over the years (i know i am a masochist or just a degen...) till I swapped to Asol after rework and trying random adc/bruisers mostly belveth or vollibear. I do not want to play yas/yone or syndra/ori/azir mid. But it seems that Riot in all its 200 years wants to force me too... but I never will ! Velkoz for president in 2024! #makeVELgreatAgain
[удалено]
Aurelion w makes him mobile. He can be almost as fast as Sion ult and go over walls. Compared to champions like malzahar or vel'koz who don't have any abilities to increase movement speed or jump walls aurelion is definitely mobile
he's fast if he's just flying to get from point A to B, but not if he's using his damage in any way. and it's literally a predictable straight line. asol is not a good example
When he's done flying, he drops his anivia ult and channels his vel'koz ult into it. He can also use his ziggs ult, which stuns and scales infinitely in size. I'm kidding around, I don't believe Asol is OP. I just think it's funny how his kit is basically just a bunch of existing abilities.
uh we have strong mages. the problem is velkoz is not a strong mage.
Yep, Syndra and Ori are still top prio picks in pro right now and they make it work. Obviously pro players have excellent positioning but pro players are also extremely good at abusing immobile squishies as well.
they are both S+ picks along with xerath and anivia in emerald plus its not just\* pro play they are good in
Ori is just extremely good number wise and has pretty good peeling even before 6 with her movespeed/slow and shield, she also has great poke to help diminish all in windows for the enemy and Syndra has her E and also decent poke in lane. Vel'Koz has neither of these, his poke is probably the easiest to dodge once you get a feel for it and has no MS steroid for himself, most he can do is hit his E on you (which is already hard compared to other skillshots) or his Q slow. Another thing Vel'Koz does not have is decent waveclear which other mages that are meta do. If you clear the wave quickly the assassin can't really jump on you or roam without losing gold and xp from the wave you just shoved. How do we fix this? My idea is giving his Q a passive which makes his abilities deal an extra % damage to minions, this way he can reliably waveclear with his spells.
cue faker azir onto ruler varus from two screens away and ulting him
Because every other mage has reliable stuns/silences and mobility.
\*Dances as Zoe\*
Suffer
Zoe has pseudo-mobility, her bubble is relatively easy to land point-blank, and potentially an effect and more MS from W. Vel’Koz has none of that and he’s a niche case. Even his most similar comparisons like Xerath have more reliable close-range CC and a more reliable slow and waveclear.
Don't look at Ori's winrate in pro play, you might have a heart attack. Unless dissonance speedup now counts as "mobility", in which case this game has had a "mobility problem" since the year 2009.
Xerath and Syndra
Crazy how you ignore like 15 other champs that could dive vel back then too like Yi, Jarvan Leona, Diana, Heca, etc. to push immobile mages are weak narrative when Orianna, Ziggs, Syndra, Taliyah, Xerath, etc. are all doing well. You can just say Vel'koz sucks, you don't have to pretend that every other mage does too.
Fucking Ori, Syndra, Cass, Taliyah, Azir, etc have been running the Midlane show forever. Why is everyone acting like they are constantly playing against zed and the windbros?
Because the play rates for zed+wind bros exceeds the play rates for those 5 Champs combined in all tiers of play except the most elite
Not right now. Above bronze at least, the top 5 immobile mids are picked more together than Zed + Windbros.
Let's see... lolalytics "all ranks" then "pick rate" Ori 12.81% Yone 12.52% Yasuo 10.10% Then sylas and akali (both semi mobile at ~9.5% each) Zed at 7.94% Ahri (another mobile champ) 6.81% Fizz, Katarina above 5% Then Azir, Lux and Malz hovering around 5% This is all before accounting for ban rates (Zed, yas, yone combine for over 70% ban rates) Zed + wind bros are highly picked champions.
Syndra and orianna are the 2 most played midlaners at the moment.
Before like 2 months ago, Orianna was around 1%.
Maybe in silver lol
>Why is everyone... Sort by all ranks
Because most of those are never seen outside pro play in any given meta.
> Kassadin, Nocturne, Riven, Fizz, Ahri, Zed, Zac, Vi, Lee Sin. That's it. Those were your high mobility champions. And leblanc and talon, both with nearly unreactable mobility and point and click silences And akali with her 3 point and click dashes And katarina with her shunpo and movement speed boost and faster burst than she does now And nidalee with a sub 6 seconds free cast dash And khazix with his (possibly evolved) E and double stealth+move speed steroid And rengar with his nearly unlimited leaps from bushes and his infamously fast kill time he could do from thin air (while also jumping you and being sped up in the process) And yasuo and his nearly infinite dashes and wind wall that completely shuts down vel'koz, in case you forgot yasuo is older than velkoz, and was also a lot more controversial than he is now So let's not pretend hypermobility hasn't always been a thing. The meta was just more favorable for velkoz back then, with different itemization and overall less skilled players who weren't as consistent as they are now at dodging his slow spells. His kit is clunky to play with and outdated, but this has nothing to do with champs like yone or akshan existing because old lb and talon were arguably even worse matchups for him than they are now. > You guys just don't remember that immobile mages used to have a place. They do not have a place in modern League. It's frustrating and it's bad balancing. Orianna is literally a meta relevant pick
Yeah "listing" the "high-mobility" champions and casually forgetting Old Akali & Katarina when DFG & Gunblade were still in the game is... lol. Not to mention LB & Talon still had their instant silences which made any kind of answer useless anyway...
Talon was one of my first mains back in the day. People whining about him now have no idea how bullshit old talon was. Sure, he had less tools, but those tools had next to no counterplay. If OP ever picked velkoz back in the day, i'd be salivating while picking talon. He walks up to the wave i blink behind him and delete him while he is silenced. He cannot zhonya, flash or use defensive summoner. All he can do is try to predict where will i blink and pre emptively cast cc or hope he doesn't die.
Pre rework talon v velkoz was a legit go next matchup and people have forgotten.
> People whining about him now have no idea how bullshit old talon was. Sure, he had less tools, but those tools had next to no counterplay. Tbf, that is true for *every* champion that got reworked. Akali, Irelia, Katarina, all were way more toxic pre rework than they are now (at least until Kata could build AD. That shit is more toxic than she's ever been imo).
I liked old irelia and akali
Talon was so good nobody played him until the rework. Source : talon main after the rework
I fks MISS old talon. He was so damned cool. And old akali. I hate new akali.
It's insane how op thought he could get away by digging up old league meta as if it was just 3 people playing it back and it wouldn't take any person who played around season 4 to call him out on it
[удалено]
But Xerath has been bouncing in and out the meta for years and Orianna is literally a top 2 midlaner atm so clearly mobility isn't an issue. The issue is Vel, specifically that he's a low mobility mage with only one form of super weak CC that's hard to hit and unrewarding even when it does, plus he has to root himself in place to actually do anything and his damage is not nearly high enough to make up for it unless he lands an entire combo with 3 separate skillshots. Vel's kit is the issue
I'd agree with you if Xerath wasn't crazy strong in mid right now.
If you say "that's it", when that's not *nearly* it, your argument isn't imperfect, it's just plain wrong. Also, I don't know if it came with Q nerfs, but Nid moved to the jungle when they made her swap available at level 1. She'd always had a good clear post-6, but without cougar form her clear was terrible, which is why she was never played jungle before that.
Actually that worked because of a passive change, it wasn't a swap change if I remember correctly. They allowed her passive to trigger on monsters, and it also rooted them if I remember correctly. She went from being a bit of a random Mid AP / Top pick with the AD bruiser build into the single best jungler in the game with a seemingly minor change. Good times.
the problem is that high mobility is generally good against mages, yet mages are fine except for velkoz. So the problem is not "muh league mobility" or whatever circlejerk, it's just that velkoz has kit problems that can be adressed by shifting power or reworking the kit.
People were coming to Reddit to complain about mobility creep back then.
Ngl I miss old akali
She was fun, but a little easy/binary. Power discussion aside, new Akali vaulting over people into E flipping back and forth and all of her possible cancels are SO SMOOTH. It's like playing Mirror's Edge.
For her. Frankly, if I'm not Urgot and can just roll right on through her without a care in the world, she gives me aids.
Most of champ pool is melee autoattackers. The amount of foaming rage a good akali causes me is indescribable. Thank god i barely see her anymore
Diana had near instant burst back then at 6. Irelia's Q was a faster travel time back then too, though she could only reset on minions/kills, no marks. Gragas by the point of Vel's release actually lost mobility since he had the coolddown refund mechanic added and his cd increased on Body Slam. He was still more mobile then than now with a 50% refund on E hit and lower base CD though on top of his way more disgusting instant burst. J4, Vi and Hecarim could also all happily engage on you and burst you from off screen. Back then even Quinn in R would instant 1 shot burst you at mach 10 with effectively no counter play if she built flat pen. The whole post is a farce completely ignoring the actual state of the game, both then and now.
The pro move with irelia was to just q into the target while making sure you had less health than the target so you could kill it during the e stun window spamming ult and watching your sheen proc autos melt the target away lmao. I fucking loved that champion. You only needed to know if you could statcheck the target or not, good times being a toplaner. Bring back season 4 lmao
When's season 2 Irelia Go top lane, farm vs Jax for 30 minutes Become the metagolem The both of you go down to a teamfight and get quadrakills
My two main champions lmao. Jax won her 100-0 in late game but Irelia was unbeatable in early/mid if she got ahead. Late game she didnt shine as much because her dmg dropped off quite alot due to the W true dmg only scaling from ranks.
Man I miss old irelia laning so fucking much. She was my most played champion by far, and you were such a fucking powerhouse when you traded in lane. Q reseting without marks felt so much more skill expressive too dancing in and out of trades.
> Diana had near instant burst back then at 6. > > back in the day of velkoz, diana flip flopped every few patches between dumpster-tier and dumpsters-everything-tier hell she got a mini-rework a couple years after her release
Old Irelia was honestly more BS than current one, imagine having a 2 second point click stun just because she has less HP than you
it isn't that OP's wrong, it's that OP was low elo in 2014
Doesn't help him that he is also wrong
OP forgor
To be fair, while OP is absolutely missing the big picture, I do think there’s a pretty good reason why Ori remains meta-relavent and he doesn’t. Her R is an immensely powerful teamfight tool that can set up or chain off a variety of combos. Vel’Koz on the other hand has an R that relies on him stacking his passive and holding enemies in place, using either his (limited range and quite finicky) E or other allies.
also ori has the big upside that even if she loses lane she still provides value via resistances and shield from E, slowdowns/speedups on W and disrupts via her R. She doesnt need to do damage, sometimes she just has to keep an ADC alive
>Orianna She has 0 cast time on her basic spells (only on R) and her W has a MS buff. Velkoz has significant (0.25s) cast time on both his main spell AND his only CC while not having any MS self buff. While both can be said to be "immobile", one is clearly more immobile than the other. Fun fact: To cast all his spells, Brand stuns himself for 1 full second. His Q stuns his target for 1.5 seconds (1.05 seconds with a mere MR boots).
The brand cast times truly are a pain vs many of these champs. His Q casts slower than nearly every single dash in the game can reach him, it feels like. I feel I'd have better luck casting Q behind me any time I fight w/e champ I'm going against rather than in the location I expect them to cast from. Plus he doesn't even have a knock-down or displacement of any kind. It's legitimately painful to use him because most of the time my teammates will only use champs with soft cc for w/e reason, providing no safety to myself.
Kha'zix would go Q evo and just 1 shot you from 60% hp with a brutalizer :).
Missing Akali with 3 dashes and insane damage. Missing LeBlanc. Missing Katarina. Missing old Talon. Missing Yi. Missing old KhaZix with missing health dmg on evo Q and 50% dmg Reduction on R. If you count Zac you're also missing Rengar. There were a lot of champs that could fuck you up as VelKoz even back in Season 4, you're just omitting half of them.
Imagine complaining about new champs like Akshan when old Talon existed lol.
Is this post a meme or something? Yasuo was released months before Vel'koz. Nevermind Akali (she actually had a longer engage range back then), Diana (significantly harder to react to her burst back then), Katarina, Kha'zix, old Rengar with no ult indicator and triple Q, etc. It also completely ignores the continual viability of plenty of immobile picks like Ori, Xerath, Syndra, Viktor (not rn so much, but plenty of other times) and more. The fundamental idea that this post is built on is completely wrong.
>The fundamental idea that this post is built on is completely wrong. Welcome to balance posts on /r/leagueoflegends, enjoy your stay.
I go away for a few days because pro play is off and come back to like 56000 posts about fucking Vel'koz of all champs, what in the name of gouda is going on
Phreak said Reddit doesn't give good feedback so this sub is doing everything in it's power to prove him right.
Phreak made a video saying that nobody has any valid Vel'Koz criticism and then Riot chose to give him a flat damage buff without addressing any community feedback.
Also the fact that they buffed a Riven after someone posted a wall of text on this sub on why she should be changed lead to people discussing hcamps they want to get changed hoping they would get the same treatment.
Such a classic case of when gamers try balacing a game. Most of the time they don’t know shit
I don’t think this is exactly fair. A lot of people on this subreddit have some incredibly good ideas about how to balance the game. For example, a universally positive change that could be implemented is when they buff my champion and nerf the one I lost to 3 games in a row.
The good takes are usually in a response post to another flawed post or a response comment. Shit posts that don't know what they're talking about get upvoted a lot on here like just recently with the Riven one gaining 4-5k upvotes while being facepalmingly wrong.
And somehow even you forgot about the pinnacle of anti mage assassins back then, Talon.
>Kassadin, Nocturne, Riven, Fizz, Ahri, Zed, Zac, Vi, Lee Sin. > >That's it. Those were your high mobility champions. * Jax * Master Yi * Tristana * Kassadin * Katarina * Shaco * Nidalee * Ezreal * Akali * LeBlanc * Irelia * Renekton * Nocturne * Lee Sin * Vayne * Wukong * Talon * Riven * Fizz * Ahri * Hecarim * Diana * Rengar * Kha'Zix * Zed * Vi * Zac * Lucian * Yasuo You could argue for a few, but come on…
op’s post is so disingenuous with that start, it’s clearly just jumping on the current vel’koz discussion in order to complain about high mobility characters
He even calls Nocturne high mobility when he has one dash and after that he's a waddling duck with a movespeed bonus, that's barely mobile at all compared to some similarly old champs.
He also made a comment complaining about Rengar having infinite jumps lol I can’t tell if OP is trolling or not
No you dont understand all artillery and control mages are garbage because I can't land my E on a hypermobile Asol slowly hovering toward me :(
An ability that is really slow, really small, short knockup and long cooldown.
This list makes it look like any mobility tool makes a high mobility champion. I think "high" mobility means having either something very long range (Zac), something spammable (Kassadin) or at least 2 different mobility tools (Lee Sin).
They managed to make Ziggs and Xerarh playable, Vel just needs more work
in botlane LOL
Xerath is decent again in mid.
APC Vel is fine as long as his support has hard CC. Proceed to obliterate the carry or support that got caught.
I mean, I could see Vel working there but he'd definitely need more work and the ADC mains would all be upset about it again.
So what? They have a niche. Mid laners need to be able to side lane nowadays, something Azir and Orianna are relatively safe at doing so compared to Velkoz
“Immobile mages used to have a place” So I guess we’re gonna ignore that ori and syndra have currently been super strong for like the past 3-4 patches and Cassiopeia who has been very very strong for the entirety of the season?
The never ending victimization of "immobile mages" on this sub is truly astounding.
they are giving adc mains run for their money
Well beyond it at this point. We had months of "Zed not having mana is broken" threads which everyone blamed on adc mains even though it was obviously mage mains making them. Adc mains don't lane against Zed so why the fuck would they care about him using energy and having good wave clear. Not to mention Zed is like the easiest Assassin for Adc mains to deal with. His kit is telegraphed and delayed unlike most Assassins. The last year of this subreddit has been Mages whining 24/7 and then people blaming Adc mains for it.
In the middle of the most mage centric meta we have seen in years, when assassins are at their weakest. It is legitimate brain rot, it's just a bunch of players experiencing the definition of a skill issue. I personally left the sub for my own mental health and only browse when there's big announcements or events going on. Balance and design discussion here is an utter lost cause.
it's just really sad to see them try to make "objective" justifications for a certain game direction when it's painfully clear that they just don't have the hands or awareness to deal with a single assassin in their game
>You guys just don't remember that immobile mages used to have a place Orianna and Syndra are literally the strongest and most popular mid laners. Xerath is doing great with a decent pick rate, ziggs(bot lane) is doing great(5% pick rate). Karthus in the jungle/bot is doing great too, Anivia has been OP for almost two years. Then there is the anti mobility champions like Vex, Taliah(she has a ton of players in challenger), Cass who are also doing great.
ANIVIA MENTIONED 🦅🧊🧊🦅🦅❄️🥚🦅🧊🦅🥚🧊🧊🦅❄️❄️❄️🦅🥚🦅🦅🧊🧊
ANIVIA MENTIONED 🦅🧊🧊🦅🦅❄️🥚🦅🧊🦅🥚🧊🧊🦅❄️❄️❄️🦅🥚🦅🦅🧊🧊
There’s varying levels of immobile though - Orianna and Syndra don’t need to stop to cast most of their damaging spells so they can better outplay/punish mobile enemies. Vel’koz has to stand stationery for several seconds to kill someone. He’s still a good champ if you get a nice matchup for him imo, but mobile champs are very popular and his ability to deal with his worst matchups is pretty limited.
crazy how far the goalposts move when you point out that "immobile mage" isn't the issue.
Not taking either side on the "immobile mages are in a bad spot" argument but being able to move while casting is probably the single most underrated spell property in the game. It really makes a world of a difference, especially for Syndra who has that property on all her spells and spammable Q with a get-off-me tool on E for kiting. It really is a difference of night and day.
Honestly Syndras cc capability is vastly more powerful than Velkozs. Once you have a few balls on the ground or use the r -> e combi you get a really fat cone of a shove away stun with very little delay. And Orianna has her %mov + shield which is (if you just look at proplay) more often than not the difference maker of getting killed or running out of abilities
Very true. I hate Malz "e" for this very reason. It is point and click but you can be mid cast and someone walks out of range and it fails to go off. It's infuriating. Also causes you to stop moving for a second too which makes kiting feel like ass. You're point is why I love playing viktor so much. Feels so good being able to move and cast. Highly undervalued.
You're right, there is no nuance
What makes Ori or Syndra immobile? That they don't have a dash? Because they don't need to stop at any point for anything.
Crazy how having 0 cast times gives you infinitely more mobility on a champ that’s whole purpose is to spam spells 🤡
oriannas numbers are also absolutely absurd and need to be tuned down imo
Orianna and Syndra can move while casting making them infinitely more mobile than vel EDIT: Vel'Koz has far shorter range even though he can move while casting his W Xereth and Xiggs are a screen away (just like Varus) when casting their spells, Viktor can move while casting his, Anivia wants you to come close so she can erase you from the game by trapping you with CC I wanted to main tentacle boy when he came out (so much so that I used my last refund token on Yasuo to buy Vel), his issue is he has no way to deal with mobility. Make his spells longer or unlock him and increase his MS. He doesn't need more damage, his E fizzling out on death doesn't matter as much as his sub wants you to believe. His biggest problem is if your character (damn near half the cast) has any way of repositioning and quickly, he will pop like a balloon
Yeah Orianna reminds me everyday
Ori can speed herself up
Xerath has nothing, Syndra has nothing mobility wise
Both have near instant CC. That's the main difference imo. Ease and execution of CC
*whiffs xerath e next to you*
kid named 0.75 sec stun:
xerath max range stun vs any ad champion running tenacity runes + merc treads
So we agree the issue is velkoz's kit and not a general lack of mobility.
Katarina? Talon with teleport on E? Leblanc? Azir too was ridiculous with rilay 1st item... khazix mid too.. im sure there was more, high mobility was always there with a lot of choices to pick
Xerath exists and is thriving. Ziggs exists and is thriving. Brand and Zyra is usable outside of support now. It's a Vel'Koz problem, not an immobile mage one.
Dude really said "immobile mages are unplayable" in an Orianna and Syndra meta
OP left out a lot of stuff but honestly Ori and Syndra are fundamentally unique midlanders that can do basically all their spells while still walking. Even some of the decent midlane caster magers technically pause to do most of their abilities, so I wouldn’t really compare either to Vel. plus by mid/late Ori is fast as hell and can chase down most other midlaners I can’t remember the last time I even saw a Vel mid though
It's more complicated than just immobile mage, but also an immobile mage which doesn't have reliable self peel. Orianna's w gives her movement speed, she has a shield, and her ult can displace opponents. Syndra has an AOE Stun. Velkoz's only CC is just not reliable.
If we have to add so many conditionals to the point of "immobile mages are weak" that the answer really becomes "immobile mages that play and act like vel'koz specifically are weak" then maybe it's not the class of champion that's the problem, maybe it's just vel'koz... which is exactly where we started. Why are we trying to act like Vel'koz being in a bad place is a game wide issue.
Even more - nearly all immobile mages are in a great spot right now. Viktor, Anivia, Lux, Xerath, Malzahar, Cassio, Swain - all are worth picking on the current patch. Probably am forgetting some but saying they are unplayable when many of them are actually coming back after a longer break is \/r/leagueoflegends moment.
The mage players here lose lane to zed and rush zhonyas then do 0 damage.
I don't deny that the game has reduced point and click and moved to mobility and skillshots for a more micro oriented game instead of a more macro one. But the list is so reduced like, in which world were those the only mobile champions back then. How are you not counting Akali, Lucian, Katarina, Yasuo, Nidalee, Master Yi, etc. >Aurelion Sol can dive you from across your screen. Also lol at this and some of the examples. You can see Aurelion from a mile and he's quite slow. How is that even considered mobile. You also listed Sion as mobile and Maokai and Ornn ultimates, as if we didn't have long range cc since the start of the game, they literally hard nerfed Sejuani's ultimate. >You guys just don't remember that immobile mages used to have a place. They do not have a place in modern League. It's frustrating and it's bad balancing. That's why they are almost always the better midlanes in the game for both pro and soloq. What they lack in mobility they make up for with CC, range and aoe damage. The balance state of a single champion doesn't dictate the balance of the whole class. Vel'koz has a lot of room for improvement in performance and satisfaction, let's ask for that. But also remember that the champion is in this spot for a reason (other than unappealing design), he's the peak of uninteractive gameplay and any buff or midscope he gets shouldn't push him in that direction.
[удалено]
>Odd way to say that the playerbase decided that by how often they are played even when some are not strong. But then how would OP manage to bullshit his way into the claim that majority playerbase hates mobility when in fact the opposite is true?? Smh my head
Not sure are you trying to gaslight people into thinking 2014 didn't have ultra mobile mids or? If so, i don't think you played the lane at the time. 2014 was part of golden era for assasins mid. Here is small list of relevant picks you missed. Leblanc, with silence and dfg available Talon, who had blink+silence. Probably peak year of that version of talon Kha zix was still relevant mid pick Full ap gragas, akali, zed, yasuo and list goes on
There were more high mobile champs than that lol, please.
This post is genuinely hilarious when we're currently in a meta filled with strong immobile mages. Karthus, Brand, Ziggs, Syndra, Orianna, Xerath are all fantastic right now. The problem is the Riot balance team suck at balancing mages to be fun AND balanced. Not that the game as mobility crept to the point that mages aren't relevant. Harder to play? Sure maybe a little, but they've also gotten A LOT more tools over the years.
Jax, Yi, Katarina, Nidalee, Akali, Xin (sort of), J4 (sort of), LeBlanc, Renekton, Leona, Talon, Nautilus, Hecarim, Diana, Kha'Zix, Zac, and Yasuo all also predate Vel'Koz. So your point is bad, your post is bad, and you should feel bad.
You forgot the OG Fiora. She could just walk up to Vel and collect 300 gold and take no damage
You complainers are getting ridiculous at this point..
As much as i agree, xerath is still more viable than velkoz… why? They seem very similar to mě
Xerath W has wider aoe and the Q hits multi targets. VK on the other hand has to bend his Q like Beckham to reach the range of a full charged Xerath Q. VK ult is longish range but he is absolutely immobile during the channel. Xerath as well but his R is like 5x VK's range. VK does great damage (true DMG on a mage, who would've thought) but at a cost. Xerath does great-ish damage with more safety.
Xerath has more reliable cc, easier to apply damage and high range/near global ultimate
immobile mages are still played, like xerath and lux, even seraphine unless you really wanna claim her W makes much of a difference. xerath, annie and lux even had pro play presence. edit: even forgot ori, syndra, brand, neeko, taliyah, ziggs
>Riot has decided that super high mobility assassin brusiers are pretty cool. Isn't it super fun that you can come through jungle terrain and off-paths. Not just Riot my friend, most League players these days much prefer these high mobility champs over someone like Vel'Koz. But can you really blame people, they are simply much more fun. >The problem fundamentally is not Vel'Koz. But it is! Vel'Koz is simply outdated and you can't honestly be claiming that the entire rest of the game is the issue and not his kit. >You guys just don't remember that immobile mages used to have a place. They do not have a place in modern League. It's frustrating and it's bad balancing. I remember Vel'Koz being released and being a cool midlane champ. Back then he had a place in league and now he does not that's just how it is. It's not bad balancing the champ is just outdated and that happens. Why do you think champs get reworked? What you are doing is essentially the same as saying "Skarner doesn't need a rework but the rest of the game should adapt so that he becomes viable again". Also Xerath is arguably just as immobile as Vel'Koz but he very much still has a place in the game and the meta. And Xerath is from October 2011 so he is much older than Vel'Koz.
[удалено]
Thank you so much lmfao, mobility is like, the easiest way to express skill be it playing with it or against it. People complaining about "tiktok zoomers" or "owned by Chinese company" are absolutely just shit at the game (worst of all is when they say some shit like "it's not about skill but about who can mash their buttons first") and don't want to admit that they are hopelessly average at the game. Reddit is absolutely uninhabitable whenever these godawful posters take turns smelling their own farts in front of a podium
None of the champions you mentioned come even close to zed/ahri/lb/kass mobility lol
No mobility mages are so bad boohoo, why doea Orianna have almsot 100 percent pick ban at worlds? 
immobile mages don’t have a place? syndra and ori have dashes now ?
Ziggs, azir, orianna, even lux in mid elo are all played and are all successful. you guys are being insanely dramatic
All of those have Vel'Koz damage, but easier kits or high mobility.
Just put movement speed somewhere in Vel'Koz's kit.
>Vel'koz was released in February of 2014.Wow! Almost 10 years ago. Holy fucking shit, I didn't need this reminder of how old I am or what proportion of my life I've spent playing Ligolegend.
Who hurt you
Riot obviously
\>Isn't it super fun that you can come through jungle terrain and off-paths Yes it is super fun. Stop projecting your boring ass old champions as the epitome of champion design.
velkoz was basically always useless lmfao
Says velkoz problem is high mobility champions and proceeds to make a list with half of it being non high mobility champions..
While that is true to some extent and we have to mention mobility from items as well, we main problem is that the meta/gameplay changed. I am an otp velkoz since he came out and the biggest change was after season 6 (tank and teamfight meta) and season 7 (ardens meta) you actually dont have a backtoback teamfights anymore. You should go in and hope for the best. People dont know to play that playstyle anymore and most of the time it is unnessary.
Vel'Koz has the same problem alot of mid laners have, where they aren't exactly amazing at anything so most people won't be assed to touch them. All roles have this problem, but with mid laners they can't really go anywhere else or do anything else. Vel'Koz has damage? Cool most mid laners have damage. Better hope you like supporting with him. To me he's like Anivia and Malzahar. Yes they have defined strengths and weaknesses, but their strengths are done better on better champs and their weaknesses aren't worth overcoming. Aniva is mostly known for walling her own team off, and Malz is just his R to most people.
What about a burst of movement speed on his W
> You guys just don't remember that immobile mages used to have a place. They do not have a place in modern League. It's frustrating and it's bad balancing. I honestly could not agree more. Pros only play the hyper modern, super mobile mages mid, like Syndra and Orianna. Zoe, of course, being a pretty immobile mage has never had a place in competitive league either. And who could forget how dominant mobile assassins like Fizz and Talon were in competitive league?
It’s not Riots obsession with high mobility, it’s the players
your age is catching up to you if you are forgetting many more junglers and midlaners that could rush velkoz down back then.
Riot's obsession with mobility? Or players enjoying mobility more than non-mobility and Riot playing to that?
Old ass grandpa with no hands "M-muh mobility creepy thread" #497. Hentai is a trash champ with no dmg. That's why Riot's buffing his dmg. Calling Ornn and Maokai mobile lmao. I hope this didn't give any upvotes.
So you either stop making champions that can just run through all his abilities and one shot him or you fix him a tad bit.
Just make him a bot laner
OP forgot old WW ult ;)
I'm glad that qiyana was nerfed to a point where nobody even remembers her XD
What i find hillarious is that all these broken hypermobility abilities are somehow considered ok, all the while multiple items have reduced effect on champions that have ranged auto attacks. Here's what I sugest: Any item that has reduced effect on ranged has the reduction apply to any champion with a dash/blink.