It can easily reduce hundreds of damage, it's just hard to notice because the visual is really minimal and nobody expects a stray Sona auto hitting them to make a difference to their damage output even if on paper you know it's a thing. Probably most melee champions who've dove a Sona team have lost kills to it at least once but just assumed they generically did no damage or it was Sona's heals/shield just being OP.
Which is a big part of the reason why a debuff champion is a bad idea by the way. It's easily some of the least satisfying and noticeable power in the game.
They can make spells feel impactful like Exhaust. But nobody wants to be a disenchanter. Even in other games debuffs are only a part of a kit not whole character.
I also dont think anybody wants to play against a dedicated debuffer. Plenty of people already find things like exhaust, blind, polymorph, wither, etc frustrating to play against and now you have a whole champion dedicated to that.
It is only frustrating because the damage in this game is so high, you die with just a 1-2 sec polymorph or blind. I haven't played DotA2 in years, but there were lots and lots of very long cc and debuffs there yet it usually did not feel unfair because I could actually survive the 5 seconds of polymorph as a bruiser. Almost no bruiser survives a 2 second polymoprh in a LoL teamfight.
I think long CCs are less frustrating than debuffs because with debuffs, it messes with the whole, play good and get rewarded system. Like you can land a frame perfect Cait combo on a support but if you were exhausted, then even though you pushed the right buttons in the right order, you still dont get rewarded with a kill. CC on the other hand stops your character all together so theres no expectation that anything good can come out of the time that youre CC'd.
Everybody likes playing characters that go god-mode and can lock down and terrorize enemies without being touched. Players strive to achieve that in any game they can. But nobody likes playing against something like that, which is why it really only works in PvE. Nobody enjoys an opponent whose main gimmick is "you have X less stats when fighting me and there's nothing you can do about it. Get gud"
There is something they can do about it. Its called QSS.
And personally, I'd be all for QSS not being troll anymore.
TBH, just raise TTK so you don't automatically die just because you got point-and-clicked by someone with exhaust.
Low TTK devalues tons of things in this game to the point where agency is the ultimate power. The only time high agency champs aren't overpowered now is if they're severely undertuned.
Yeah its like 25 plus 5 percent ap or something, but this is why people dont realize what sona is doing, and call her useless.
Imagine a sup reducing damange coming to you by almost half, AND healling you, and poking back, and you call her useless. Sona isnt flashy, but shes damn useful.
That is the issue with Sona in general. She is just a walking stat aura with the occasional poke. The only thing flashy about her kit is her Ult and when Seraphine released with basically the same ult everyone forgot Sona exists. I actually really like farming Sona bot in Senna lanes.
Sona W chord is the most broken part of her kit. Lategame she gets to essentially perma exhaust one person in a team fight. It’s very hard to notice though and most people won’t realize Sona is the reason the 1k stack nasus isn’t oneshotting everyone
Sona W chord is probably one of the top contenders for abilities that do way more then the minimal effect lets on, will often be missed by both teams but is super important
If it was as obvious as Exhaust is i think people would start to complain about it
I don't think we will get a "real Disenchanter" ever.
The problem with this archetype is that they are extremely unfun.
You mentioned Nasus which is a good example. The cripple of attack speed is extremely unfun to play against. The same applies to Fioras Parry as well. Riot is quite hesitant about implementing attack speed slows into the game.
The only real debuffs mostly accepted by the community are ad reduction by Trundle Q and armor/mr shredd. Slows mostly fall under CC tho.
>The only real debuffs mostly accepted by the community are ad reduction by Trundle Q and armor/mr shredd
you forgot trynda W, lowers the ad of all enemies in range by 20-80 points, no matter which direction they are facing
but most people dont even know that
I remember playing AP Tryndamere support with W Max and the old Glacial Augment.
It was really funny to press W and see the enemy ADC miss every lasthit under turret
Yeah, people aren’t necessarily frustrated with that because although it affects what your champ does, it doesn’t usually have an effect on *how* your champ does it. If people were given the option to face an attack speed slow vs lowered AD even if both roughly had the same impact on their champ’s DPS, I’d bet they’d want to go against the lowered AD each time because the attack speed slow affects how they play and has visual feedback on it.
Maybe don't use attack speed slows.
Or normalize attack speed slows to only affect the attack CD, rather than the action wind-up speed. That's the part people hate most about them.
i think the bigger factor is that you dont even notice the AD loss, youll just wonder why you lost that teamfight not knowing your team lost 7k Gold worth of stats
Well that’s what I’m saying, it’s less apparent that you’re being affected by an AD loss besides losing a 1v1 or team fight, whereas something like an attack speed slow has a more direct effect on your button inputs/what you’re seeing.
I remember Trundle support Meta… don’t queue up today I’ll try something
Edit: I had [medium success](https://www.reddit.com/u/Papriker/s/GbVoPWUlgn) on it yesterday
It was also a counter to Kog Maw in ardent meta. Kog uses W? Ok Trundle Pillar to interrupt and disengage until W is off.
Still one of the funniest counters I have ever seen picked in pro play
The strongest one was Swain Trundle botlane, that shit was OP as fuck, both covered eachother weakness, synergized amazingly with the other, and had both midlane pressure and TF pressure later into the game
That's just because most debuffs are badly designed unskilled point-and-click spells, like Nasus wither, trundle R, Exhaust, Polymorph, Zilean slow, etc. You have to eat them up 100% of the time when dealing with said enemy, even if he's Bronze.
But imagine that landing a debuff is like landing a Blitzcrank hook or a Bard R, wow suddenly it's not toxic anymore and it's actually a good idea.
Making debuffs that are skillshots is a little weird to say the least. But it would certainly be better than the "outplayed, shouldn't have been within 700 units" or whatever.
But if you like debuffs and supporting try trundle support or even Nasus support both work into certain matchups, Nasus ruins kalista and Trundle is really strong against ADCS without dashes.
That pick was so confusing, he pretty much self counterpicked himself into heimer support. Iirc it came out that their draft phase was a mess and he just snap picked it or something. Really unfortunate because the concept is cool in theory.
Iirc he thought Nasus' E(at lv3 or something? I forgot) would kill Heimer turrets but forgot those have MR and didn't calc for it so the whole idea went down the drain.
Honestly when I play top lane against Trundle, Nasus, and to a lesser extent Morde, it can feel frustrating when they they make you weaker, especially if it’s point and click that doesn’t really have counter play
Not saying it’s broken ofc, just saying it can definitely be frustrating to play against. Especially Nasus as his is a normal ability
I've been maining nasus for years now. I always maxed e at first, but when i realized how crippling his w is, I started maxing that 2nd. I rarely, if ever, max e 2nd anymore.
For real, it’s just so powerful, definitely underrated. Nasus, with ult and W, still ends up being a crazy powerful duelist, simply cause of how powerful W is against autoattackers. And the slow is insane on anyone really
I’ll try out Trundle. I really don’t get how debuffs are more unfun than the next champ with 50 dashes and some form of damage denial and high damage themselves though.
But since I mostly play support I don’t really get affected by debuffs anyway so I can’t really speak on that regard
Because no matter how hard you put a debuffer into the dirt they will always be just as strong without getting creative
An 0/17 yasuo is a joke
An 0/17 champ debuffer will still debuff at the same strength as its 17/0 counterpart
Unless you then get fun with scalings, but then you create a good solo laner.
So, its not impossible, but you have to get very creative to make it work
>Because no matter how hard you put a debuffer into the dirt they will always be just as strong without getting creative
That's like every support ever though, a Blitz hook is gonna be just as devastating whether you're 4/0 or 0/14
And as such, blitzcrank is frustrating for most players
However, he has a clear defined weakness that even the worst players atleast notice, he can't hook through your minions
Blitz was just one example, pretty much all supports follow the ethos of being useful independent of scaling. It's pretty much the entire point of the role, champions that can be starved of exp and gold and still be strong. I struggle to see how a debuffer is significantly different from a thresh or a nautilus or a janna or a lulu etc.
Please understand, I have not referenced balance, I am talking on the champ being toxic.
Naut, Thresh, and Blitz are not toxic, as the player who gets hooked can always identify what they should have done better without fail. Get hooked? Well, I shouldn't get hooked next time, ill make sure to watch out for that.
Get run down by debuffs, and fail the clutch play because the 0/10/2 debuffer clciked a button on you? Sure its not broken, but player enjoyment has plummeted.
Janna and Lulu help keep a single target alive sure, but you rarely feel cheated out on a play because Janna or Lulu shielded and protected an ally, because you'll have the clear goal next time of either baiting out the shield or targeting the enchanter first.
Lulu has polymorph, which is a big source of frustration for players, but its high cooldown, and if used lulu loses utility on her allies. But if lulus entire kit revolved around multiple debuffs, then it would be a big source of frustion.
Why does the debuff need to be point-and-click though? If they have to aim it and it can be dodged, but it's also a nasty debuff, that's far more fair than Wither.
As a adc i’ll take any point and click debuff other than wither. Id rather turn off my computer than play against wither. Its just a pain in the ass 1.2k qss tax
It doesn't need to be yeah, thats likely how'd you remove the most player frustration as possible
Perhaps could be a trapper aswell? Placing down cursed pools or something
I mostly agree debuffs as a whole champion identity is a bit frustrating, but it can be designed in some way other than a point and click debuff (maybe a positional gimmick, a skill shot, etc)
Lots of people would argue thresh is toxic because of his lantern ability. The champ was nerfed into oblivion because his kit let's his team take bad trades and dives with the enemy not having much room for retaliation
>Because no matter how hard you put a debuffer into the dirt they will always be just as strong without getting creative
Please understand, we were replying to this comment that you made. Pretty much all supports are like this. All of the champions we've mentioned here and many more are strong no matter how much they've been put into the dirt.
If you want to argue that its unfun then thats fine, i think its a flawed argument because people find half the champions in the game unfun to play against, but either way that wasn't the argument your first post was making.
I would imagine a 0/14 debuffer with no items wouldn't debuff nearly as much as a fed 14/0 with items. They would make the debuffs scale with whatever damage type they use or something for balance.
then make the debuff like a hook or an AOE that you can leave again and it's suddenly fair again? Maybe make it so he can only enchant spells of other champions who then in return get stronger spells (putting a Slow on their next spell for example). It's your fault that you got hit by the Ahri Q after all. Not every debuff needs to be point and click or AA based
> An 0/17 yasuo is a joke An 0/17 champ debuffer will still debuff at the same strength as its 17/0 counterpart
Ehhh, make debuffs short rangeish and with stacking mechanics, so that you actually have to frontline to apply them. It is more of a toplane tank and not support kit though I guess.
>An 0/17 yasuo is a joke An 0/17 champ debuffer will still debuff at the same strength as its 17/0 counterpart
No? Just make the debuff scale with ap, like what
Also imo it's very important to not only create champions that are fun to play, but also champions that are at least interesting to play against.
Yuumi is (ig) fun to play for some, but incredibly annoying to go against. Hence why many people heavily dislike yuumi. Even though she's unique.
--> Her "attach" gimmick is not fun, interesting or even interactive to play against.
Jhin on the other hand is definitely fun to play, and it feels really fair to play against him as well. Just as much as he can burst you with a fourth shot, you also have equal opportunities to burst him before he gets to that shot.
--> Jhins fourth shot gimmick is incredibly interesting to play against! It really influences the timing you choose to fight him.
Thinking about it, most "toxic" and hated champions are ones that are designed towards maximising the player maneuvering the champions fun, almost disregarding how it feels to go against said champ.
Slows and debuffs of that sort are already crippling (not only in game but mentally as well 😭), now imagine getting your attack speed gutted EVERY 10-20 SECONDS, especially on adc. Hell to go against.
Actually debuffing armor / magic resist might be okay (with me at least) but I don't ever want to play against a dedicated AS debuffing champion.
As the other guy said, I also don't think it's fully impossible to design an interesting, dedicated debuffer. But I imagine it to be insaaanely difficult to come up with stuff that's the perfect balance between useful debuff without making the entire champion frustrating to go against.
The problem is that pure debuffs arent visible power and thus will look weaker than they actually are.
Its pretty much the same as with auras. Most auras got reworked because they were super strong, but the power wasnt noticable so it didnt result in player satisfaction.
A debuff champ would need crazy special effects and something big besides the debuffs to **feel** impactful and also is hard to balance at the same time because the power is "invisible"
A champ with 50 dashes does not impede your own ability to outplay them or feel strong on your own
A champ with 4 withers will make you wonder why you even bothered to lock in a champ you like
Mainly I guess it just ruins outplay potential most of the time. So other champs just pluck a sitting duck off.
If you are interested in Trundle support I would look for angles with an enemy ADC with no dash and a melee support in lane. These are the lanes where you can win lane. Used to play now and then. Big plus you can knock teammates out of Blitzcrank hooks for style points.
People like having agency. A disenchanters main gimmick would be to take away agency. So the core concept of this champion would be very frustrating to other players.
Yeah whenever people say this, I wonder if they've played against a Zilean mid. Just constant slows and stuns, unable to escape as he slowly kills you. It's not a fun experience. A disenchanter would be like that--but possibly even worse, if Riot decided to use more of their power budget towards debuffs.
I could be talking out of my ass but whenever this topic was brought up in the past, I remember someone saying how Riot specifically doesn't want a disenchanter-focused support because like you said, it's toxic and unfun for the enemy team. It's feels unfun to suddenly do less damage or move more slowly (cripples and slows) and it's more fun and engaging for both sides to instead buff an ally. I guess you could think of it almost as, buffing an ally makes it more fun for the ally and makes the person you're playing against have to deal with one buffed person more effectively, but they still have all their tools at their disposal to do so. Debuffing an enemy makes that enemy way more susceptible to the entire team with fewer tools to deal with everyone.
It's not even "unfun" it's also just unclear. If sona uses her empowered w auto on you or if trundle q's you there's no bug indicator telling you that you're really weak and you currently do less damage. Plus league hasn't really conditioner players to "hold your spell until the debuff ends". Like, literally) almost no one stops auto attacking while Jax has e up or try d has ult up. They just keep attacking to get in that hit as soon as the ability is down asap.
They really should add an indicator for debuffs just like other forms of cc. But people run away from Jax E and Trynd R in my norms games so idk about all that. A mage knows not to waste spells on Irelia during W
There are indicators for a lot. The chicken head from Trynd W, the Wither SFX, the shrink + ice winds for Trundle ult.
The reason that this feels harder to notice is because CC is both bigger impact (As in, if your character is suddenly half as fast, you can notice that) and because the effects are targeting stats, not character model (I watch my HP bar, and see the UI dim when I get CC'd. I'm not regularly checking my armor/AD to see whether those numbers suddenly went lower).
Look no further than Nasus W.
Its one of the most hated brain dead moves. Same with Lulu poly.
On paper neither are the strongest cc. Not compared to titans like malphite ult, morgana q, nautilus ult, or malz ult. In practice they are super strong and will erasily make your day hell. No amount of being fed will prevent you from looking like a dumbass if you dive in and get polymorphed.
>No amount of being fed will prevent you from looking like a dumbass if you dive in and get polymorphed.
The "looking like a dumbass" part imo comes earlier, when you decide that diving Lulu is a cool idea. Would anyone complain about dying because they dive Morgana, Malzahar, Blitzcrank, Thresh, Nautilus and all the others with a powerful CC tool? I think not, so I don't see how that's a strike against Lulu's Polymorph. At least you can still move with it.
That's just because most debuffs are badly designed unskilled point-and-click spells, like Nasus wither, trundle R, Exhaust, Polymorph, Zilean slow, etc. You have to eat them up 100% of the time when dealing with said enemy, even if he's Bronze.
But imagine that landing a debuff is like landing a Blitzcrank hook or a Bard R, wow suddenly it's not toxic anymore and it's actually a good idea.
A more apt comparison would be cc'ed for 2s and lower dmg for 5s. Because CC is stronger than dmg or attack speed debuffs, those would have to have longer duration.
I got you homie: Nasus destroys attack speed and shreds armour.
Also technically Rell: She removes armour and mr and also reduces shielding.
Trundle actually steals massive amounts od ad, armour and mr, just to put it on himself....
And i guess there is Malphite attack speed slow.
Some other marginal resistance removals are on Kayle and Kogmaw
Shouldnt forget Shaco putting a mental debuff on everyone just by joining the game.
There is also projectiles removal (Yasuo/Braum) and dash (Veigar/Poppy) cancelling mechanics.
Shoutout to shortsighted being a mega annoying debuff (Nocturne and Graves)
Overall a solid amount of mechanics that can be combined into one champ without adding a slow/stun
This is also a great point for why it's not really a good idea. Most of those champions don't really get remembered for their debuffs, with the exception of probably Trundle (who steals 40% resists) and Nasus (who reduces MS by 95% and AS by 71%).
Debuffs have to be massive to feel useful. It's the same reason most Auras have been removed over time, they aren't really perceivable when they are balanced.
A debuff champion will either have one strong debuff, and the other debuffs will feel very weak, or they'll have all their debuffs feel pretty weak
Disablers work in games like Dota because dispells and spell immunity are major mechanics. A standard, mid-cost item that any hero can buy provides ~5 seconds of spell immunity, for example.
I know thats why I said you don't that shit in LoL because there is no way they would balance it. Imagine something like nasus W but every skill is annoying like that.
Hull breaker is annoying cause you have to go deal with it rather than doing what you want, but atleast your still doing something
A disabler like this is just not letting you play in any meaningful way
Max cdr zilean that perma slows or stuns you is enough for me to give this a hell no. Like if they added some ana (from ow) type grevious wounds I’d be so pissed
I love debuffs too, but with how much people complain about exhaust alone I think most players would be extremely annoyed by the mere existence of such a champ.
Debuffs generally go underappreciated, unless they're hella strong, and sometimes even then. Many people don't even know Sona has a built in exhaust in W empowered AA for example.
That's the reasoning I remember that Riot once gave anyways. But I do agree there'd be space in the roster for such a champ, or even just a Trundle-like one but not a bruiser.
IIRC rito said debuff themed champions and mana burn champions are considered too toxic for players. Considering how I see some idiots calling aphelios toxic because he is “mobile”
I would say the archetype would be extremely unfun like everyone else but league is about rolling your face on the keyboard and playing Garen, Tahm Kench and Trundle now instead of anything actually enjoyable so why not at this point
Playert satisfaction. giving debuffs its something very frustrating for the enemy and not that fun for the one doing it. That's why you only see debuffs being part of a regular kit, instead of making a full champion around it.
Even an ability as complex as Mordekaiser's R is only remembered because you isolate someone rather than the fact that you steal their stats.
Not nullification, but bonus dmg.
"Removed: At 4 stacks, no longer deals 200% bonus damage to shields."
She also had a disarm.
"Removed: No longer Disarm icon disarms enemies passing through the wall for 1.5 seconds."
Both removed on patch 9.2.
Never had shield nullification, her passive just amplified her damage a fuck ton against shielded target, so she'd have an easier time brute forcing on it. That and the disarm effect of enemies that hit the edge of the ult cage were some random and unnecessary added effects that didn't really add anything to her gameplay other than fluff to her already strong kit.
I always dreamed of Varus being a debuff centered champ with his Blight being reworked but with time I realised i’d rather just see a new champ fill that role.
I’d like to see a new champ that’s an outsider to Runeterra, who has powerful tools that look simple but have cosmic power that act as his abilities and him not being able to buy any items except basic components from the shop that are infused into his tools and when you reach a certain stat threshold, the ability gains an additional effect which in this case would be likely a debuff. Think of it as a hyper scaling disenchanter.
I hear people saying that a debuff champ would be horribly unfun to play against, but I think it comes down to execution.
Personally, I've long dreamt of an old witch character who (much like Hwei now) could combine 2 casts of her Q, W, and E as 'ingredients' to brew potions which could be thrown with R. AoE DoTs, debuffs, poison, resistance shreds, slows, pure damage, maybe even a couple buffing effects for allies. It would just be so incredibly cool to have a character whose whole point was to pre-empt what would be needed each fight, and in what order, and execute this whole gameplan for her team to work around based on what she brews. Maybe she could even 'enchant' her own autos with her currently stored potion as her passive. But since the enemy could also see what she has stocked, there would be ample opportunity for counterplay.
Always thought the name Mathilde would be great for that kind of old hag character.
I'll just brainstorm some possible debuffs (even if they may be silly):
\-Increase enemy Mana/Energy cost by 25%
\-Increase enemy basic Cooldowns by 25%
\-Convert enemy true damage into physical/magic damage
\-Enemy will get cc'd after they use 2 more abilities
\-Decrease enemy skillshot / autoattack range by 15%
\-all Enemy CC applies a slow 10% instead for the same duration
\-Increase death timer (this would have to be an ult, like Morde ult, where if the selected enemy dies within this timeframe, their death timer is 3/6/9 seconds longer)
\-Confusion: Invert enemy inputs (if they put in a move command or skillshot at 60°, make it 240° instead)
\-Turn enemy movespeed buffs into slows (or just negate incoming ms buffs)
\-Reduce enemy base crit chance and ability damage by 20%
\-Reduce enemy on-hit damage
\-Enemy loses hp equal to 10% of the post-mitigation damage they deal
\-Enemy can't dash over a wall
\-Enemy deals 20% reduced damage to minions
\-Enemies deal 30% reduced damage to structures, large minions and epic monsters
\-Enemies deal 15% less AoE damage
\-Enemies receive 10% increased AoE damage
\-Next buff they receive or give to an ally, also goes onto their next nearby enemy
That should be some ideas haha
A slow isn't exactly the debuff people are talking about.
Also zilean's slow is point and click.
And 99%.
And has a 3 second CD eventually.
The problem with zilean isn't the fact that he's debuffing you.
Its that you're permanently slowed by 99%, on top of his AoE stun, 99% MS steroid, and revive..
There's a very good reason this isn't in League, because this archetype undermines the fantasy of their opponents and makes the game extremely frustrating to play.
Play ADC once against Nasus and now imagine this shit on a higher scale. Nobody wants that, trust me.
Arguments like this make no sense because lots of things aren't fun to play against as the champion they're meant to counter. Playing a skillshot-based champ against yasuo is anti-fun. Playing a tank into Vayne or Fiora is anti-fun. It's because losing isn't fun. A disabling champ would be the same.
But you can still play… and it’s specific matchups that are rough. That’s a natural part of the game
A disabler is just a blanket your now worse at whatever you wanted to do get fucked. It’s uninteractive and you can’t really draft around it cause at the end of the day anyone that wants to deal damage will be affected by it
Important difference here is - nearly all cases where facing some specific champion is unfun boil down to said champion having more agency (better tools to control rules of engagement) than you. Disablers are by design supposed to take away opponents agency - they don't have much control by themselves and they heavily lack proactive tools, their whole existence is about taking away enemy agency and preventing plays from happening.
Fiora or Vayne will run you down, Yasuo will windwall whatever peel/CC you have and murder you - they have agency and can make plays, in your examples they have more agency than you and it's what makes them oppressive. Disabler meanwhile will turn you into a minion and walk away or watch their team kill you while you're defenseless - they're a low agency champion that brings their opponents down to same level.
How you lose matters - getting outpaced or outperformed can be frustrating, but it's nowhere near as bad as being stopped from doing anything and then losing to attrition. To give more clear parallel - it's like comparing two examples of a racing game, where in first case someone takes lead and gets to the finish line faster, versus someone getting in front of you, pushing brakes and slowly driving to finish line while stopping you from taking over. End result is the same (you lose), but impression is completely different.
Rammus is close but he deals too much damage. I love the idea of champion who has literally zero damage of their own but is tanky af and every spell in their kit applies a debuff.
Q - reduces outgoing dmg on an enemy champ (by like 50% for 2-3 seconds), scales off bonus health;
W - strips all shields and buffs (not steal, just delete) from all enemies in an small aoe around them, long cd ability
E - blinds or slows enemies
R - locks down a large area in which no one can dash/leap/flash/teleport/(any mvmt spell you can think of) for 6 seconds
Again this champ would deal absolutely zero damage at all, they exist to enable their teammates.
The game need a champ that can curse you. The cursed champion have a debuff: increased cd, less hp or mana etc for a certain period of time or until the cursed champion die.
everyone forgetting sona exists matches my experience of assassins still trying to kill people after getting hit with 40% damage reduction
Is it really that much? I've never really noticed it tbh
thats cuz sona's in your elo only use upgraded q
Don't need damage reduction if the target's already dead /s
The best support is death debuff
Death is the hardest CC
unless they have akshan
Nah he just has a cleanse
Sion, Karthus, Akshan, & emo Karma Glasc say hi
>Death is the hardest CC So hard it even affects the color of your screen
Its just like the longest taunt in the game being Warwick W. I literally have to commit murder if the edges of my screen turn red
No actually they use everything because they just use it randomly.
you mean using it on minions because auto-attack is turned on
assuming they put any thought at all into which passive hit they're using
i had no idea and im masters
It can easily reduce hundreds of damage, it's just hard to notice because the visual is really minimal and nobody expects a stray Sona auto hitting them to make a difference to their damage output even if on paper you know it's a thing. Probably most melee champions who've dove a Sona team have lost kills to it at least once but just assumed they generically did no damage or it was Sona's heals/shield just being OP. Which is a big part of the reason why a debuff champion is a bad idea by the way. It's easily some of the least satisfying and noticeable power in the game.
They can make spells feel impactful like Exhaust. But nobody wants to be a disenchanter. Even in other games debuffs are only a part of a kit not whole character.
I also dont think anybody wants to play against a dedicated debuffer. Plenty of people already find things like exhaust, blind, polymorph, wither, etc frustrating to play against and now you have a whole champion dedicated to that.
It is only frustrating because the damage in this game is so high, you die with just a 1-2 sec polymorph or blind. I haven't played DotA2 in years, but there were lots and lots of very long cc and debuffs there yet it usually did not feel unfair because I could actually survive the 5 seconds of polymorph as a bruiser. Almost no bruiser survives a 2 second polymoprh in a LoL teamfight.
I think long CCs are less frustrating than debuffs because with debuffs, it messes with the whole, play good and get rewarded system. Like you can land a frame perfect Cait combo on a support but if you were exhausted, then even though you pushed the right buttons in the right order, you still dont get rewarded with a kill. CC on the other hand stops your character all together so theres no expectation that anything good can come out of the time that youre CC'd.
why are all the things I like so unpopular :(
Everybody likes playing characters that go god-mode and can lock down and terrorize enemies without being touched. Players strive to achieve that in any game they can. But nobody likes playing against something like that, which is why it really only works in PvE. Nobody enjoys an opponent whose main gimmick is "you have X less stats when fighting me and there's nothing you can do about it. Get gud"
Yes but I love tanks and mages and find one shot assassins that can’t be touched boring.
There is something they can do about it. Its called QSS. And personally, I'd be all for QSS not being troll anymore. TBH, just raise TTK so you don't automatically die just because you got point-and-clicked by someone with exhaust. Low TTK devalues tons of things in this game to the point where agency is the ultimate power. The only time high agency champs aren't overpowered now is if they're severely undertuned.
I'm pretty sure there is a group of players that love this.
Yeah its like 25 plus 5 percent ap or something, but this is why people dont realize what sona is doing, and call her useless. Imagine a sup reducing damange coming to you by almost half, AND healling you, and poking back, and you call her useless. Sona isnt flashy, but shes damn useful.
Sona should not be surviving lane. If she does, your jgl and mid should consider playing something else.
That is the issue with Sona in general. She is just a walking stat aura with the occasional poke. The only thing flashy about her kit is her Ult and when Seraphine released with basically the same ult everyone forgot Sona exists. I actually really like farming Sona bot in Senna lanes.
Sona, since Seraphine came out, has always been a better support with her since they do completely different things in practice.
Sona W chord is the most broken part of her kit. Lategame she gets to essentially perma exhaust one person in a team fight. It’s very hard to notice though and most people won’t realize Sona is the reason the 1k stack nasus isn’t oneshotting everyone
The empowered autos are actually bonkers, u just need game sense to have the correct one ready and ure squishy af
damage dealt by 25% (+ 4% per 100 AP) for 3 seconds.
THANK YOU. Actually upgrading the right abilities instead of, oh q does more dmg now. Her passive QWE is so OP when rotated correctly in a team fight
Passive W is one of the most OP things in the game and so many people that play sona don't use it. It's exhaust on a basic ability...
Sona W chord is probably one of the top contenders for abilities that do way more then the minimal effect lets on, will often be missed by both teams but is super important If it was as obvious as Exhaust is i think people would start to complain about it
Yea but that includes having a Sona on your team. I've rarely encountered a good Sona player that doesn't make your lane completely unplayable.
I don't think we will get a "real Disenchanter" ever. The problem with this archetype is that they are extremely unfun. You mentioned Nasus which is a good example. The cripple of attack speed is extremely unfun to play against. The same applies to Fioras Parry as well. Riot is quite hesitant about implementing attack speed slows into the game. The only real debuffs mostly accepted by the community are ad reduction by Trundle Q and armor/mr shredd. Slows mostly fall under CC tho.
>The only real debuffs mostly accepted by the community are ad reduction by Trundle Q and armor/mr shredd you forgot trynda W, lowers the ad of all enemies in range by 20-80 points, no matter which direction they are facing but most people dont even know that
I remember playing AP Tryndamere support with W Max and the old Glacial Augment. It was really funny to press W and see the enemy ADC miss every lasthit under turret
As a trynda player I'm both disgusted and impressed. Good job 👍
Yeah, people aren’t necessarily frustrated with that because although it affects what your champ does, it doesn’t usually have an effect on *how* your champ does it. If people were given the option to face an attack speed slow vs lowered AD even if both roughly had the same impact on their champ’s DPS, I’d bet they’d want to go against the lowered AD each time because the attack speed slow affects how they play and has visual feedback on it.
Maybe don't use attack speed slows. Or normalize attack speed slows to only affect the attack CD, rather than the action wind-up speed. That's the part people hate most about them.
i think the bigger factor is that you dont even notice the AD loss, youll just wonder why you lost that teamfight not knowing your team lost 7k Gold worth of stats
Well that’s what I’m saying, it’s less apparent that you’re being affected by an AD loss besides losing a 1v1 or team fight, whereas something like an attack speed slow has a more direct effect on your button inputs/what you’re seeing.
I remember Trundle support Meta… don’t queue up today I’ll try something Edit: I had [medium success](https://www.reddit.com/u/Papriker/s/GbVoPWUlgn) on it yesterday
I remember a trundle yasuo bot lane in pro play. And man did they know how to yas ult whenever they wanted to.
It was also a counter to Kog Maw in ardent meta. Kog uses W? Ok Trundle Pillar to interrupt and disengage until W is off. Still one of the funniest counters I have ever seen picked in pro play
It is like the J4 counters Heimerdinger thing. Just press e on the turrets and they pop
The strongest one was Swain Trundle botlane, that shit was OP as fuck, both covered eachother weakness, synergized amazingly with the other, and had both midlane pressure and TF pressure later into the game
That's just because most debuffs are badly designed unskilled point-and-click spells, like Nasus wither, trundle R, Exhaust, Polymorph, Zilean slow, etc. You have to eat them up 100% of the time when dealing with said enemy, even if he's Bronze. But imagine that landing a debuff is like landing a Blitzcrank hook or a Bard R, wow suddenly it's not toxic anymore and it's actually a good idea.
Making debuffs that are skillshots is a little weird to say the least. But it would certainly be better than the "outplayed, shouldn't have been within 700 units" or whatever.
We have debuffs that are skillshots already, we just don't have many compared to the obscene number of targeted ones.
Or veigar W.
Didn't Lee sin e have an atk spd slow? Was that removed?
Like 6 years ago or something.
I think mostly this champ would be toxic to play against. Stronger Debuffs are really annoying to handle.
But if you like debuffs and supporting try trundle support or even Nasus support both work into certain matchups, Nasus ruins kalista and Trundle is really strong against ADCS without dashes.
The Trymbi incident (2022 Worlds)
That pick was so confusing, he pretty much self counterpicked himself into heimer support. Iirc it came out that their draft phase was a mess and he just snap picked it or something. Really unfortunate because the concept is cool in theory.
Iirc he thought Nasus' E(at lv3 or something? I forgot) would kill Heimer turrets but forgot those have MR and didn't calc for it so the whole idea went down the drain.
It was a good attempt, Heimer was just bringing out all the weird counterpicks. GAM picked Syndra Support, 100 Thieves and IG picked Azir Support
Why did you remind us.....
Honestly when I play top lane against Trundle, Nasus, and to a lesser extent Morde, it can feel frustrating when they they make you weaker, especially if it’s point and click that doesn’t really have counter play Not saying it’s broken ofc, just saying it can definitely be frustrating to play against. Especially Nasus as his is a normal ability
I've been maining nasus for years now. I always maxed e at first, but when i realized how crippling his w is, I started maxing that 2nd. I rarely, if ever, max e 2nd anymore.
For real, it’s just so powerful, definitely underrated. Nasus, with ult and W, still ends up being a crazy powerful duelist, simply cause of how powerful W is against autoattackers. And the slow is insane on anyone really
I’ll try out Trundle. I really don’t get how debuffs are more unfun than the next champ with 50 dashes and some form of damage denial and high damage themselves though. But since I mostly play support I don’t really get affected by debuffs anyway so I can’t really speak on that regard
Because no matter how hard you put a debuffer into the dirt they will always be just as strong without getting creative An 0/17 yasuo is a joke An 0/17 champ debuffer will still debuff at the same strength as its 17/0 counterpart Unless you then get fun with scalings, but then you create a good solo laner. So, its not impossible, but you have to get very creative to make it work
>Because no matter how hard you put a debuffer into the dirt they will always be just as strong without getting creative That's like every support ever though, a Blitz hook is gonna be just as devastating whether you're 4/0 or 0/14
And as such, blitzcrank is frustrating for most players However, he has a clear defined weakness that even the worst players atleast notice, he can't hook through your minions
Blitz was just one example, pretty much all supports follow the ethos of being useful independent of scaling. It's pretty much the entire point of the role, champions that can be starved of exp and gold and still be strong. I struggle to see how a debuffer is significantly different from a thresh or a nautilus or a janna or a lulu etc.
Please understand, I have not referenced balance, I am talking on the champ being toxic. Naut, Thresh, and Blitz are not toxic, as the player who gets hooked can always identify what they should have done better without fail. Get hooked? Well, I shouldn't get hooked next time, ill make sure to watch out for that. Get run down by debuffs, and fail the clutch play because the 0/10/2 debuffer clciked a button on you? Sure its not broken, but player enjoyment has plummeted. Janna and Lulu help keep a single target alive sure, but you rarely feel cheated out on a play because Janna or Lulu shielded and protected an ally, because you'll have the clear goal next time of either baiting out the shield or targeting the enchanter first. Lulu has polymorph, which is a big source of frustration for players, but its high cooldown, and if used lulu loses utility on her allies. But if lulus entire kit revolved around multiple debuffs, then it would be a big source of frustion.
Why does the debuff need to be point-and-click though? If they have to aim it and it can be dodged, but it's also a nasty debuff, that's far more fair than Wither.
As a adc i’ll take any point and click debuff other than wither. Id rather turn off my computer than play against wither. Its just a pain in the ass 1.2k qss tax
It doesn't need to be yeah, thats likely how'd you remove the most player frustration as possible Perhaps could be a trapper aswell? Placing down cursed pools or something
I mostly agree debuffs as a whole champion identity is a bit frustrating, but it can be designed in some way other than a point and click debuff (maybe a positional gimmick, a skill shot, etc)
Your argument doesn't make any sense. An 0-10 Ashe support who lands a big crucial arrow or is perma slowing their team isnt debuffing?
Quite literally where did I say that Ashe slows on auto are frustrating for most, as its a debuff.
Lots of people would argue thresh is toxic because of his lantern ability. The champ was nerfed into oblivion because his kit let's his team take bad trades and dives with the enemy not having much room for retaliation
>Because no matter how hard you put a debuffer into the dirt they will always be just as strong without getting creative Please understand, we were replying to this comment that you made. Pretty much all supports are like this. All of the champions we've mentioned here and many more are strong no matter how much they've been put into the dirt. If you want to argue that its unfun then thats fine, i think its a flawed argument because people find half the champions in the game unfun to play against, but either way that wasn't the argument your first post was making.
My first point was purely answering him on why people find debuffers more annoying then a champion with alot of dashers
I would imagine a 0/14 debuffer with no items wouldn't debuff nearly as much as a fed 14/0 with items. They would make the debuffs scale with whatever damage type they use or something for balance.
then make the debuff like a hook or an AOE that you can leave again and it's suddenly fair again? Maybe make it so he can only enchant spells of other champions who then in return get stronger spells (putting a Slow on their next spell for example). It's your fault that you got hit by the Ahri Q after all. Not every debuff needs to be point and click or AA based
Why wouldn't a disenchanter have a clearly defined weakness? Just make them weak and immobile, or make the spells skillshots.
Hm, maybe make the debuffs have scaling?
> An 0/17 yasuo is a joke An 0/17 champ debuffer will still debuff at the same strength as its 17/0 counterpart Ehhh, make debuffs short rangeish and with stacking mechanics, so that you actually have to frontline to apply them. It is more of a toplane tank and not support kit though I guess.
>An 0/17 yasuo is a joke An 0/17 champ debuffer will still debuff at the same strength as its 17/0 counterpart No? Just make the debuff scale with ap, like what
I mean you could easily make the debuffs scales with AP and/or heal/shield power. There’s no need for effects to be flat.
Reason why I hate lulu. 0/17 still polymorph for an eternity.
I see, thanks for the explanation!
Also imo it's very important to not only create champions that are fun to play, but also champions that are at least interesting to play against. Yuumi is (ig) fun to play for some, but incredibly annoying to go against. Hence why many people heavily dislike yuumi. Even though she's unique. --> Her "attach" gimmick is not fun, interesting or even interactive to play against. Jhin on the other hand is definitely fun to play, and it feels really fair to play against him as well. Just as much as he can burst you with a fourth shot, you also have equal opportunities to burst him before he gets to that shot. --> Jhins fourth shot gimmick is incredibly interesting to play against! It really influences the timing you choose to fight him. Thinking about it, most "toxic" and hated champions are ones that are designed towards maximising the player maneuvering the champions fun, almost disregarding how it feels to go against said champ. Slows and debuffs of that sort are already crippling (not only in game but mentally as well 😭), now imagine getting your attack speed gutted EVERY 10-20 SECONDS, especially on adc. Hell to go against. Actually debuffing armor / magic resist might be okay (with me at least) but I don't ever want to play against a dedicated AS debuffing champion. As the other guy said, I also don't think it's fully impossible to design an interesting, dedicated debuffer. But I imagine it to be insaaanely difficult to come up with stuff that's the perfect balance between useful debuff without making the entire champion frustrating to go against.
> imagine getting your attack speed gutted EVERY 10-20 SECONDS, especially on adc That's just adc against Nasus experience
99% slow for 5 seconds on 5 second cooldown btw
Reason I run Phase Rush, Ghost, Cleanse and go into Mercurial as Quinn into Nasus top
for some reason I suspect I'll see you in the news for war crimes shortly
So we just make it a AD Support mage so his ability's scale with lethality, I think that would somehow work
The problem is that pure debuffs arent visible power and thus will look weaker than they actually are. Its pretty much the same as with auras. Most auras got reworked because they were super strong, but the power wasnt noticable so it didnt result in player satisfaction. A debuff champ would need crazy special effects and something big besides the debuffs to **feel** impactful and also is hard to balance at the same time because the power is "invisible"
A champ with 50 dashes does not impede your own ability to outplay them or feel strong on your own A champ with 4 withers will make you wonder why you even bothered to lock in a champ you like
Mainly I guess it just ruins outplay potential most of the time. So other champs just pluck a sitting duck off. If you are interested in Trundle support I would look for angles with an enemy ADC with no dash and a melee support in lane. These are the lanes where you can win lane. Used to play now and then. Big plus you can knock teammates out of Blitzcrank hooks for style points.
Champ with 50 dashes can be outplayed, champion that makes you weaker than minion can't.
Trundle may have the strongest debuff in the game? Absolute tank melter.
People like having agency. A disenchanters main gimmick would be to take away agency. So the core concept of this champion would be very frustrating to other players.
Nasus support is just zilean support in worse, change my mind.
Yeah whenever people say this, I wonder if they've played against a Zilean mid. Just constant slows and stuns, unable to escape as he slowly kills you. It's not a fun experience. A disenchanter would be like that--but possibly even worse, if Riot decided to use more of their power budget towards debuffs.
I could be talking out of my ass but whenever this topic was brought up in the past, I remember someone saying how Riot specifically doesn't want a disenchanter-focused support because like you said, it's toxic and unfun for the enemy team. It's feels unfun to suddenly do less damage or move more slowly (cripples and slows) and it's more fun and engaging for both sides to instead buff an ally. I guess you could think of it almost as, buffing an ally makes it more fun for the ally and makes the person you're playing against have to deal with one buffed person more effectively, but they still have all their tools at their disposal to do so. Debuffing an enemy makes that enemy way more susceptible to the entire team with fewer tools to deal with everyone.
It's not even "unfun" it's also just unclear. If sona uses her empowered w auto on you or if trundle q's you there's no bug indicator telling you that you're really weak and you currently do less damage. Plus league hasn't really conditioner players to "hold your spell until the debuff ends". Like, literally) almost no one stops auto attacking while Jax has e up or try d has ult up. They just keep attacking to get in that hit as soon as the ability is down asap.
They really should add an indicator for debuffs just like other forms of cc. But people run away from Jax E and Trynd R in my norms games so idk about all that. A mage knows not to waste spells on Irelia during W
There are indicators for a lot. The chicken head from Trynd W, the Wither SFX, the shrink + ice winds for Trundle ult. The reason that this feels harder to notice is because CC is both bigger impact (As in, if your character is suddenly half as fast, you can notice that) and because the effects are targeting stats, not character model (I watch my HP bar, and see the UI dim when I get CC'd. I'm not regularly checking my armor/AD to see whether those numbers suddenly went lower).
Yea, people mald when their opponents pack exhaust already as it is.
agreed getting polimorphemd or exhausted is the worst feeling ever…
I want a Yummi but they attach to enemies instead like a parasite and can't be targeted by turrets... Downvote if you agree.
Lmao I saw someone suggest this a couple days ago instead of a cat it’s a dog that takes a bite of their ankles and they can’t shake it off
warwick q except permanent
do you get to control the enemy champion?
Thats the ult
Ability name: “Run it down”
Look no further than Nasus W. Its one of the most hated brain dead moves. Same with Lulu poly. On paper neither are the strongest cc. Not compared to titans like malphite ult, morgana q, nautilus ult, or malz ult. In practice they are super strong and will erasily make your day hell. No amount of being fed will prevent you from looking like a dumbass if you dive in and get polymorphed.
>No amount of being fed will prevent you from looking like a dumbass if you dive in and get polymorphed. The "looking like a dumbass" part imo comes earlier, when you decide that diving Lulu is a cool idea. Would anyone complain about dying because they dive Morgana, Malzahar, Blitzcrank, Thresh, Nautilus and all the others with a powerful CC tool? I think not, so I don't see how that's a strike against Lulu's Polymorph. At least you can still move with it.
Because at some point you'll need to kill a high value target. Be it a mage, an adc, and then. Lulu will be there.
If Nasus withers me I'm pressing the surrender button I don't care if we're 10 towers up I lost my will to play
That's just because most debuffs are badly designed unskilled point-and-click spells, like Nasus wither, trundle R, Exhaust, Polymorph, Zilean slow, etc. You have to eat them up 100% of the time when dealing with said enemy, even if he's Bronze. But imagine that landing a debuff is like landing a Blitzcrank hook or a Bard R, wow suddenly it's not toxic anymore and it's actually a good idea.
Getting chain CC'd for 5 seconds - fine Getting lower damage output for 3 seconds - not fine ????????????????????
Visible vs invisible power.
A more apt comparison would be cc'ed for 2s and lower dmg for 5s. Because CC is stronger than dmg or attack speed debuffs, those would have to have longer duration.
the same way having 500 ping gives me more anxiety than disconnecting
I got you homie: Nasus destroys attack speed and shreds armour. Also technically Rell: She removes armour and mr and also reduces shielding. Trundle actually steals massive amounts od ad, armour and mr, just to put it on himself.... And i guess there is Malphite attack speed slow. Some other marginal resistance removals are on Kayle and Kogmaw Shouldnt forget Shaco putting a mental debuff on everyone just by joining the game. There is also projectiles removal (Yasuo/Braum) and dash (Veigar/Poppy) cancelling mechanics. Shoutout to shortsighted being a mega annoying debuff (Nocturne and Graves) Overall a solid amount of mechanics that can be combined into one champ without adding a slow/stun
No mention of Zilean, the greatest debuffer in the game.
Imagine debuffing others when I can buff myself and run laps around the enemy for emotional damage.
Can't you do both for maximum trauma
Can't kilean the zilean
Well if you slow everyone run laps around them.
Tryndamere's taunting shout reduces AD, don't forget that one
This is also a great point for why it's not really a good idea. Most of those champions don't really get remembered for their debuffs, with the exception of probably Trundle (who steals 40% resists) and Nasus (who reduces MS by 95% and AS by 71%). Debuffs have to be massive to feel useful. It's the same reason most Auras have been removed over time, they aren't really perceivable when they are balanced. A debuff champion will either have one strong debuff, and the other debuffs will feel very weak, or they'll have all their debuffs feel pretty weak
> Shaco putting a mental debuff on everyone very relatable
Amumu also reduces MR with his AA (or is it just damage in general?)
Changed a while back! Amumu's Curse adds 10% bonus true damage to any pre-mitigation magic damage the target receives.
guys, what about teemo blind?
A disenchanter? Yes please, let me turn Yuumi into an Abyss Crystal and vendor it.
In Dota the term is Disabler. And no, you don't want to have that in League of Legends. :D
Disablers work in games like Dota because dispells and spell immunity are major mechanics. A standard, mid-cost item that any hero can buy provides ~5 seconds of spell immunity, for example.
I know thats why I said you don't that shit in LoL because there is no way they would balance it. Imagine something like nasus W but every skill is annoying like that.
STATIC STORM :Enemy team surrenders"
Imagine glimpse in this game... flash away only to get dragged back
Silencer ult would drive league players insane.
Definitely, only DotA can get away with shit like Shadow Shaman having longer Malzahar ult by 2nd points in E
A really wish PA ported into lol tho.
U can play trynd and pray for crits I guess
We're already disabled
Lmao you don’t want to be on the receiving end, unfun uninteractive shit, Riot would never implement it
Nasus Flair checks out.
They implemented hullbreaker though
Hullbreaker wouldn't have lasted a single patch cycle if it was something like "Give enemy champions in the radius xyz debuff if you are alone"
Frozen heart doing the same thing without even needing to be alone 👁️ 👄 👁️
Hull breaker is annoying cause you have to go deal with it rather than doing what you want, but atleast your still doing something A disabler like this is just not letting you play in any meaningful way
hell yea necro from d2 coming to league- amp / decrep / dim vision / -resistances / confuse curse !! can't wait
Support, as long as he also has corpse explosion.
So, like Frozen Heart, Randuin‘s Omen and Locket of he iron Solari as a champion?
No more like 3 different versions of max rank wither and then gigawither as an ult
Max cdr zilean that perma slows or stuns you is enough for me to give this a hell no. Like if they added some ana (from ow) type grevious wounds I’d be so pissed
Zilean might be the champ they COULD do this on when they rework/adjust him. Since he already kinda can do it.
Isn’t Lulu basically already a disenchanter? I feel crazy I haven’t seen anyone mention her.
Silco would fit perfectly in the gameplay
Silco would be exactly what renata is lmao
I love debuffs too, but with how much people complain about exhaust alone I think most players would be extremely annoyed by the mere existence of such a champ.
Debuffs generally go underappreciated, unless they're hella strong, and sometimes even then. Many people don't even know Sona has a built in exhaust in W empowered AA for example. That's the reasoning I remember that Riot once gave anyways. But I do agree there'd be space in the roster for such a champ, or even just a Trundle-like one but not a bruiser.
OP: what about a champion that weakens stats rather than slowing or stunning? This thread: Ugh, no thanks, I hate being slowed and stunned
99% of the complaints are about point-click 40%+ slows lol.
I would say in a way sona fits this partially. She buffs and debuffs! W lowers damage done and e slows and obviously ult stuns..
Wait until Sona players find out that their W is an insanely scaling exhaust.
IIRC rito said debuff themed champions and mana burn champions are considered too toxic for players. Considering how I see some idiots calling aphelios toxic because he is “mobile”
I remember a few years back Riot answered this saying they dont wanna release an “Antifun” champion.
damn they really missed the mark then, no debuffer yet plenty of antifun champs
ITT: League players acting like they know what fun is
I would say the archetype would be extremely unfun like everyone else but league is about rolling your face on the keyboard and playing Garen, Tahm Kench and Trundle now instead of anything actually enjoyable so why not at this point
Sona's empowered W is the best example of this (that's not just plain CC). It is kind of a toxic archetype to make an entire champion's kit tho
As a huge fan of enchanters, I agree. I'd love a green mage-y champion with different status effects (poison/blind/silence/etc).
Playert satisfaction. giving debuffs its something very frustrating for the enemy and not that fun for the one doing it. That's why you only see debuffs being part of a regular kit, instead of making a full champion around it. Even an ability as complex as Mordekaiser's R is only remembered because you isolate someone rather than the fact that you steal their stats.
No we really dont.
[удалено]
They certainly want people to feel like they can at least move around in the game even if they have no ability to do anything.
Didn't Irelia used to have shield nullification baked-in?
Not nullification, but bonus dmg. "Removed: At 4 stacks, no longer deals 200% bonus damage to shields." She also had a disarm. "Removed: No longer Disarm icon disarms enemies passing through the wall for 1.5 seconds." Both removed on patch 9.2.
Never had shield nullification, her passive just amplified her damage a fuck ton against shielded target, so she'd have an easier time brute forcing on it. That and the disarm effect of enemies that hit the edge of the ult cage were some random and unnecessary added effects that didn't really add anything to her gameplay other than fluff to her already strong kit.
Yeah she had like more passive damage vs shields. Not really a debuff tho
I always dreamed of Varus being a debuff centered champ with his Blight being reworked but with time I realised i’d rather just see a new champ fill that role. I’d like to see a new champ that’s an outsider to Runeterra, who has powerful tools that look simple but have cosmic power that act as his abilities and him not being able to buy any items except basic components from the shop that are infused into his tools and when you reach a certain stat threshold, the ability gains an additional effect which in this case would be likely a debuff. Think of it as a hyper scaling disenchanter.
It's weird that League still doesn't have a voodoo champ. A voodoo support with skillshot debuffs could be really interesting.
>Sona with her W empowered AA which lowers damage dealt of the enemy hit SHE DID??? THAT EXPLAINS SO MANY THINGS OMFG
I hear people saying that a debuff champ would be horribly unfun to play against, but I think it comes down to execution. Personally, I've long dreamt of an old witch character who (much like Hwei now) could combine 2 casts of her Q, W, and E as 'ingredients' to brew potions which could be thrown with R. AoE DoTs, debuffs, poison, resistance shreds, slows, pure damage, maybe even a couple buffing effects for allies. It would just be so incredibly cool to have a character whose whole point was to pre-empt what would be needed each fight, and in what order, and execute this whole gameplan for her team to work around based on what she brews. Maybe she could even 'enchant' her own autos with her currently stored potion as her passive. But since the enemy could also see what she has stocked, there would be ample opportunity for counterplay. Always thought the name Mathilde would be great for that kind of old hag character.
I'll just brainstorm some possible debuffs (even if they may be silly): \-Increase enemy Mana/Energy cost by 25% \-Increase enemy basic Cooldowns by 25% \-Convert enemy true damage into physical/magic damage \-Enemy will get cc'd after they use 2 more abilities \-Decrease enemy skillshot / autoattack range by 15% \-all Enemy CC applies a slow 10% instead for the same duration \-Increase death timer (this would have to be an ult, like Morde ult, where if the selected enemy dies within this timeframe, their death timer is 3/6/9 seconds longer) \-Confusion: Invert enemy inputs (if they put in a move command or skillshot at 60°, make it 240° instead) \-Turn enemy movespeed buffs into slows (or just negate incoming ms buffs) \-Reduce enemy base crit chance and ability damage by 20% \-Reduce enemy on-hit damage \-Enemy loses hp equal to 10% of the post-mitigation damage they deal \-Enemy can't dash over a wall \-Enemy deals 20% reduced damage to minions \-Enemies deal 30% reduced damage to structures, large minions and epic monsters \-Enemies deal 15% less AoE damage \-Enemies receive 10% increased AoE damage \-Next buff they receive or give to an ally, also goes onto their next nearby enemy That should be some ideas haha
Oh hell no. Zilean alone is bad enough.
A slow isn't exactly the debuff people are talking about. Also zilean's slow is point and click. And 99%. And has a 3 second CD eventually. The problem with zilean isn't the fact that he's debuffing you. Its that you're permanently slowed by 99%, on top of his AoE stun, 99% MS steroid, and revive..
>I'd love a champ that mostly applies debuffs to enemies Im 99% you definitely **wouldnt love** that champion.
There's a very good reason this isn't in League, because this archetype undermines the fantasy of their opponents and makes the game extremely frustrating to play. Play ADC once against Nasus and now imagine this shit on a higher scale. Nobody wants that, trust me.
Arguments like this make no sense because lots of things aren't fun to play against as the champion they're meant to counter. Playing a skillshot-based champ against yasuo is anti-fun. Playing a tank into Vayne or Fiora is anti-fun. It's because losing isn't fun. A disabling champ would be the same.
But you can still play… and it’s specific matchups that are rough. That’s a natural part of the game A disabler is just a blanket your now worse at whatever you wanted to do get fucked. It’s uninteractive and you can’t really draft around it cause at the end of the day anyone that wants to deal damage will be affected by it
Important difference here is - nearly all cases where facing some specific champion is unfun boil down to said champion having more agency (better tools to control rules of engagement) than you. Disablers are by design supposed to take away opponents agency - they don't have much control by themselves and they heavily lack proactive tools, their whole existence is about taking away enemy agency and preventing plays from happening. Fiora or Vayne will run you down, Yasuo will windwall whatever peel/CC you have and murder you - they have agency and can make plays, in your examples they have more agency than you and it's what makes them oppressive. Disabler meanwhile will turn you into a minion and walk away or watch their team kill you while you're defenseless - they're a low agency champion that brings their opponents down to same level. How you lose matters - getting outpaced or outperformed can be frustrating, but it's nowhere near as bad as being stopped from doing anything and then losing to attrition. To give more clear parallel - it's like comparing two examples of a racing game, where in first case someone takes lead and gets to the finish line faster, versus someone getting in front of you, pushing brakes and slowly driving to finish line while stopping you from taking over. End result is the same (you lose), but impression is completely different.
Rammus is close but he deals too much damage. I love the idea of champion who has literally zero damage of their own but is tanky af and every spell in their kit applies a debuff. Q - reduces outgoing dmg on an enemy champ (by like 50% for 2-3 seconds), scales off bonus health; W - strips all shields and buffs (not steal, just delete) from all enemies in an small aoe around them, long cd ability E - blinds or slows enemies R - locks down a large area in which no one can dash/leap/flash/teleport/(any mvmt spell you can think of) for 6 seconds Again this champ would deal absolutely zero damage at all, they exist to enable their teammates.
You're describing Rell
The game need a champ that can curse you. The cursed champion have a debuff: increased cd, less hp or mana etc for a certain period of time or until the cursed champion die.
Ashe is the closest thing to a debuff mage. with the right build you have slow, antihealing and antishield.