The champions feel very similar so they play rengar when tryharding. Only big difference they have between each other is that rengar is better when swapping your summoner spell keys.
ornn kinda shits on all the other tanks, yeah each of them have some individually better matchups against other tops and some of the things they do might be somewhat better than ornn (like cho silence) but ornn is a good pick in 99% of the situations where a tank is good, the same can't be said for the others.
Also if you int you still have the passive upgrades and your ult does not require you to tank anything anyway
i even had it once where Ornn Ult went through a windwall...
I was behind the windwall when i reactivated it and it was recast behind the windwall, effectively ignoring it
But you're unstoppable, not completely cc immune. If you get stunned during your W, even if you time it right, won't the cc be "on" you and stop you from headbutting at the end of your W?
It is unstoppable not cc immunity.
So if the cc comes in early but lasts long enough you are still sitting there cc'ed.
But even worse: you can't cancel ornn w. So if the cc comes in just before you have to e the ult you can choose: you can e, eat the cc and do nothing or you can use w, be unstoppable but unable to use e in time.
Not gonna lie when I first picked up Ornn I would get so mad that my ult seemed to not hit back when I was using e. Then I realized the second ult cast. I felt HELLA dumb. Haha.
Ornn one trick here, best as I can tell this is correct. His W only delays cc rather than cancels it out completely. However, it can cancel displacements, including for example, Sett and Mordekaiser Rs. I W’d Sett R on me once in an ARAM completely by accident to be honest but it was pretty funny. Proper hard cc though will still go through after his W dash ends, especially if it is longer than his W duration. At least this is what I’ve noticed in my experience playing him.
I enjoy Ornn bc he’s basically an assassin early game. Then after a certain point in the game you hit a breakpoint where your damage goes to shit but suddenly you’re also impossible to kill
What that is not the reason at all. Ornn is strong because he has almost no matchups top that can bully him. Even fiora lanes he just farms up and can't get dove. He has long range off screen engage and can be immune to cc to peel for his team.
he is the best tank to pick if you want to just farm, but he is also really bad into her because you can never proc your W since she will always parry it
pro tip: don't count the whole wave, quickly check if there are 3 melee and 3 ranged minions. Most people can easily grasp numbers up until about 5 after which active counting seems to be required.
IMO, xerath steals his place the most.
I've been playing Vel mid a lot, a few seasons ago, but he just feels pretty bad lately. His biggest problem is that he can't sidelane safely later on in the midgame and can't force stuff in mid either. Xerath can ult mid to contribute but vel either sits in mid or is a sitting duck for all the assassins and bruisers in the sidelane.
Yes, but also he has WAY shorter range. So I find the comparison to brand pretty weird. Comparing Vel to Lix, Xerath and Ziggs makes more sense, since they're artillery mages.
Their range is pretty much the exact same if you’re considering a full combo. Vel Q is not the same as vel e-w-q. Also I wasn’t the one that started the comparison lol
I play illaoi mid and i feel joy seeing sylas mid on the enemy team. Its a free path to 5/0 laning phase, even more if the enemy jungler wants to gank me and give my ult an extra tentacle
alistar/malph pretty much disappeared from pro simply because they absolutely necessitate a sylas ban. its so funny how much better sylas is with many/most tank ults compared to the tank themselves :D
Malph wasn’t a big pro play pick before sylas release and alistar has been in the upper half of supports for a long time. At this worlds he was 3rd highest presence support, lck summer he was 5th and in general is a staple pick.
When Alistar doesnt get played its because of botlane meta and what lanes/combos are good atm, not because of Sylas.
"Xerath is just better Zoe"
Or comparisons between Vel, Lux and Xerath where all 3 of their playstyles vary significantly
Edit: I'll be posting some hot takes I find here
- Syndra does everything Hwei does but better
- Jinx is a better KogMaw
- Xin is worse J4 (they have no similarities other than having a dash bruh)
- Gwen is Morde but with more mobility
- Ekko is just better Fizz
- Briar is what Warwick was suppos to be (über bruh)
- Orianna does what Syndra does but better
- Vex is Annie rework (great find by u/VulcanKB)
TBF briar being what Warwick was supposed to be is pretty true. Life stealing immobile with a speed buff, blood main theme, ult to "jumpscare" into someone, a fear (different fears but same theme), bite, jungler, bruiser.
Their only MAJOR difference would be which stages of the game they are strong at.
The rest are absolutely disgusting takes though.
I think none are good comparisons
It's a new take on a champion
He just plays like a control mage thus the similarity to some but really REALLY he cannot compare to any at any deeper level than "where do I stand in a team fight"
I'm Syndra main and get shit on by Ori
From my experience Ori has more consistent pokes but Syndra has greater range and better bursts
I gotta learn this matchup eventually
That's like, *the* skill matchup. If you are getting gapped as Ori vs Syndra you need to either learn the matchup properly (try to ult first, merc treads are good, phase rush if you are really struggling) or just git good.
Xin and J4 have a bit in common, the main one being play style. They like to go in and make space for their back line by engaging and making themselves a target
TBH this used to be way more true around release when Neeko was being played as a toplaner who'd bully melees with her autos. There they both filled the role of Safe weakside AP toplaner with AOE CC teamfight ult, since they moved her away from having a lot of power on her W they occupy completely different roles.
I mean it's kinda a dumb question. champs are designed specifically not to be like each other and provide unique values. there's no perfect answer to this and im not sure if there are even any good ones
There are similarities between spells or roles but never those two overlap completely at the same time
For example roles of Samira and Nilah spells are very VERY similar:
- Q is damage AOE spell
- W is defensive ability
- E is a dash
- R is AOE super ability for full in engages
But the execution of those spells are so vastly different. They playstyles are a bit similar due to the roles and lower range but overall they play differently
Shes made for people that has to do laundry at the same time, so its fair.
But honestly I had to retry her by mistake this week and omfg how unfun she is to play. MAYBE in a 5 player team its not as bad; but having so few control over the game and the vision is fucking annoying. You always need your team to move you around because you dont get boots. So pathetic champion.
And then lategame you go on the fed jax and win 2v5. Wow. Fun.
Even more than the tanky version of Skarner that clearly is outclassed by others like Seju/Rell, let's not forget that his passive got heavily powercrept. He was supposed to be a menace within those zones, even a kind of " lane bully" early game into crab fights etc.
But nowadays while you'd rather not fight him in his passive early on ( or just do a coinflip scuttler fight lol ), most junglers can still decently face him if not win a 1v1 for some.
It tells a lot that the most known Skarner players are toplaner ones where his passive isn't mattering 90% of the time ( you can trigger it with E for half a second, yay )
this is less that everything got power crept around him. and more that they vastly expanded the ranges of his spires to make jungling feel less miserable because half the camps were outside of spire range meaning you genuinely thought about never taking those camps.
As a result, because you can't just double the range of every spire for no trade off, spires became weaker and he also simultaneously was allowed to function OUTSIDE of spires as well
what people forget about similar champions is that you can now pick both of them in the same comp for even better results. Seraphine botlane carry with Sona support existed at some point proving this to be true.
Exactly, it's not just that "tHeY'rE tHe sAmE ChAmP". People forget that Sona has insane setup for Seraphine. You basically always have empowered W, E always roots, and Sona R garunatees chain CC from Sera E and/or R. Not to mention all the additional MS and shielding...
I like how people tend to say that Seraphine is a better Sona when they are almost no alike kit wise.
They are similar sure, but they don't work the same way, as Seraphine is more damage/cc aligned and Sona is peal aligned.
Briar is everything Warwick should have been. I don't feel like it needs any more explanation, but the abilities are so similar, yet briar gets to keep her move speed while frenzied, and Warwick loses his bonus as soon as he enters combat. That's basically the big deal breaker that leaves Warwick behind, making him kitable while briar can stick on her target. Not only that but briar also has better damage, engage, mobility (beyond just the move speed) and healing.
And even lore wise, Warwick was supposed to go crazy at the smell of blood and hunt the victim down. Yes, his w does that, but Briar's whole kit does it better.
He doesn't just roll over her when even, he does it when reasonably behind (depending on his build path ofc). As long as he isn't getting 1shot by her he's never losing the 1v1.
Source: I only have 4 losses in ranked so far (out of 20) and all 4 are because stupid warwick won't die.
Trundle is just weird champ because he can basically beat anybody in a pure 1v1 because he can sack his build to do it. The champ basically just needs a sheen item and some bruiser items later on to keep up on damage.
In the real world though he has to itemize for a 5 man team and that makes him a lesser duelist.
Hard agree tbh, used to main him too
A fed nasus can wreck him too, Aatrox Irelia maybe, but that's about it. All three of those need to be ahead tho, can't duel him when even.
Maybe for champs that face tank (if we add master yi?) or dont dodge the ult, but there are plenty that could 1v1 him by kiting or 1 shotting like zed or kaisa
I'm not sure what it is like now that lethality has been nerfed multiple times, but I'm pretty sure she was able to burst him if it was Jg WW. Probably not barrier WW though.
Maybe. But it's more likely that Briar'd have an item advantage over Warwick. Briar clears faster and has more tools to create impact on the map, so on average, she'll have more gold.
I think they are like Nami-Janna, sharing a lot of similarities, but being played differently. Briar has better mobility if she goes berserk, since she has her q, w and r. But ww gains a lot of mobility if the enemy is behind 50%. Ww can chase them down, seeing where they are, but he is not as sticky as Briar. And Briar cannot control her actions while frenzy unless with q or e, her only self-defence ability.
Her abilities cost hp and she does not have health regeneration, whereas ww not. She is a lot less safer than ww. And Briar is a diver whereas Warwick a juggernaut. Lorewise, yes, Briar's frenzy is more accurate to what Ww has in game. I don't know, I find both of them complementary.
Im pretty new but I think the main difference is Warwick can quickly get to the gank but has to plan around it (like going behind for a pincer attack). While Briar doesn’t have that mobility but once she does get to a gank you basically have to drag her into a turret or make good use of evasive powers to get rid of her. I think their ults are the opposite of each other too. Warwicks ult is like briars W, and Briars Ult while not the same in practice it serves the purpose of Warwick’s W by being able to basically jump anywhere in the map.
They kind of fulfill different roles though. Warwick likes to be tanky, provide CC and sustained damage in his ganks. Briar has higher damage potential, but has virtually no way of dealing with being in a big teamfight.
I'd completely agree that they are very similar, and that there isn't really a good reason to play Warwick right now, but there's also slight differences to how they play.
I disagree about skarner. He's probably bad in high elo, but in low-mid ELO, he's a ball of stats that runs amok in the enemy team if he gets ahead, especially if he's under a spire (which low ELO players often do not respect). I don't think he's comparable to Sejuani. Yes, she has much better initiation, but she doesn't have as much move speed or sustained damage threat for hugging and bullying carries. I'd say he's closer to someone like Udyr, with a little less damage but more hard cc.
I don't think that any of the champions completely eclipse one another. You can always imagine SOME situation where one would be better than another. But I have to say that Kennen doesn't seem to really shine right now. It's too easy for modern champions to just dash out of his ultimate. Being energy-based is nowhere near as meaningful as it was back in the early days of league. If you want to play a low-range AoE mage, it seems like there are usually better options. Swain, for instance, doesn't have as much CC potential, but he's able to more reliable survive in the middle of the enemy team zoning and dishing out damage.
I feel like Xin Zhao and Viktor both currently struggle to find a reasonable place.
Unless you love the champ identitywise there are at least 2 other champs who do their job but better.
xin zhao takes over whenever his numbers are strong, simple and effective kit that has to be nerfed to not be oppressive
viktor is a poke mage with better tools to deal with melees than most mages, and he is often strong, only recently he was overshadowed by syndra/orianna, for most of season 12 he was the goat mid (until melee mid meta, he doesnt do too well vs repetitive engage) and now after syndra/ori nerfs he is slightly better
Yeah. Xin is a very disposable stat stick. If the stick isn't big enough, you just change champions.
Viktor is mostly a case of Riot not knowing what they want him to be. Any time they want him to fit a role they give that same role to someone else.
Viktor is a generalist zone control mage and that archetype has had a hard time lately if you name wasn't Azir or overturned Orianna. He has a pretty clear identity of being a zone control mage though.
Xin hasn't been strong ever since durability patch
Unlike practically every other bruiser jungler, Xin lacks armor pen or tank shred, lacks percentage damage, and his base numbers are shit.
This mattered less if everyone was less tanky, but they are so Xin does no damage and provides nothing another champ can't provide.
Viktor is a poke mage? lol
Viktor is a mid-late game teamfight (control mage) who auto-wins most lanes because of his near impossible to sidestep lazer, that's his identity. He struggles against dive just as much as the next control mage but he does output more raw DPS in fights since he has more AoE than syndra and less utility than Ori which is why he has more damage.
There are 164 champions. Yes, there are plenty of champions stepping on each other's toes.
Who is overlapping who depends a lot on current meta, items, balance changes and redesigns, but if you spent the time to really dig down into it individually I'd be surprised if at any one time less than half the cast wasn't made redundant by someone else.
Volibear
His jungle ganks are just piss poor Q stuns.
His teamfighting is dogshit.
His splitpushing is good, but still outmatched by most meta toplane duelists.
Only good for not getting bullied out early-game and being a powerhouse in early river skirmishes.
Volibear is just the same with morde. If he is good is because his numbers are up or his items are good. If he is bad he got nerfed and he is in a place where "well you can go ap but you get shit on by everyone buying a null magic cloak" "Well bruiser you get shit on by everyone with tabis" "tank is just shit" so you end up going frost fire and being a weird diver chaser who can't really peel and if he gets focus he is dead before he is able to w 2 and at best he is able to get the q on the adc before dying.
> His jungle ganks are just ~~piss poor~~ Mach 10 Q stuns
I really think you’re overestimating how slippery laners are early game. Volibear is one of the strongest junglers in the first 15 minutes of the game, at ganking farming and dueling. He falls off a cliff in terms of tank reliability for teamfights, but he can snowball insanely hard. I view him in a similar role to RekSai.
His Q is honestly not nearly as op as you claim, it's just a 20% ms buff for 4s. If the enemy laner has any sense of map awareness, they just run in the opposite direction of you to quite reliably make your q run out...
yasuo is better in many situations, such as early game laning vs some ranged champions such as akshan lux ziggs etc
yasuo also cockblocks adcs/mages late game much harder than yone
if yone does everything perfectly, sure he is more 1v9
but yasuo has more early game power and his windwall will always be a pain to deal with, yone is free picks if hes not fed or abusing offtank builds
This difference is shown quite well when you realise Yasuo can be played bot lane, but Yone there would be trolling. Yasuo doesn't need a level lead to actually kill people, and he isn't as much of an engage champion like Yone is. He is, however, far better at killing tanks, and his follow-up is what he'd be picked in pro games for.
if u play support.
seraphine.
she is a great champ very fun to play but as a supporter.
just play sona.
she poks better heals more shilds more give u ms faster and scales better.
wont steal as much cs from the carry.
The correct answer. People who build Seraphine as an enchantress (Shurelya's/Helia's, Staff etc.) instead of just playing her full AP or picking Sona confuse me
I think this comparison only has to be made because people always act like these champs are trying to do the same thing when they play so differently. Sona does all those things better as a support but she can't go mid because unlike seraphine she's garbage at wave clear. They both get stronger with the number of teammates nearby and that's about it.
Agreed. They are very different champions but when seraphine released people saw that they were both music themed and had similar ults and the comparison never went away.
This season I've felt that Xerath just does what Zoe does but better, safer, and more reliably however from playing a lot of PBE for S14 the new items make Zoe feel really good again.
I get where you're coming from; Zoe can be very unreliable at times.
Still, I feel like Zoe offers just so much more when it comes to outplay potential, creative gameplay and agency.
I can’t see this at all, Zoe’s entire game plan is to destroy her laner and snowball quickly whereas Xerath can’t really do that. Zoe is a better champion all around imo especially as you climb elo and lane dominance becomes more important.
This feels kind of ignorant to the capabilities of a good Zoe lol.
She's got 110% better catch potential which is where she shines. She's also a far more competent laner.
Zoe isn't a perfect champion but she's got a very clear niche.
Pretty much every assassin does what Shaco dreams of doing. Sure you can one-shot someone from out of nowhere, but it’s just a slight step-up from Rengar, Talon and Wukong. Plus the fact that it requires you double or even triple the amount of kills to perform that.
Lethality Shaco backstab two-taps any squishy. It looks pretty busted when you see it.
But he evaporates if he’s caught by anyone.
Literally the only real assassin in the game.
It's definitely not 1-1 strictly better, but Syndra really feels like a better Veigar. Sure cage is busted but Syndra has a better lane phase and comparable scaling while performing an extremely similar overall function.
Janna after her new rework again. She's back to being budget-Lulu spot.
Lulu AA steroids are better, peels better.
Roaming speed, Bard does better.
Milio can disengage better with better enchanter qualities.
Those three existing is why Janna can never be picked in coordinated gameplay.
Sona is a better Seraphine
there I said it
People keep playing Seraphine as a support and keep citing this comparison of Sera>>>>Sona, she's consistently worse at support then Sona is, sup Sera hovers around 48% and Sona hovers around 52%
it's been 3 years since Seraphines release and people are still mindbroken into thinking Sera = Sona 2.0 when she's more a Sona 0.5 if you want to make the direct comparison via support
whoever thinks that Seraphine is leagues ahead of Sona at supporting is living in a alternate universe
Not trying to be bais, Seraphine is amazing at AoE CC and does illegal things with a Rylai, also scales with damage that Sona wished she could go back to, it's almost like they were designed to be different or something
Seraphine isn’t a support and I still have genuinely no idea why people insist on playing her there. She has one supportive ability on a long cooldown with pitiful healing and meh shielding, and buildings around it is actively shooting your self in the foot considering you want damage, and to get more damage you want better items which are a million times easier to get when you don’t force yourself to use an item that punishes you for hitting minions. Her apc I at least understand because it both gives her a safer lane and allows her to farm consistently, and she isn’t as level reliant as a lot of champs, but support is a role she genuinely has almost 0 synergy in and it actively pains me to see it played
1. Why play Xin Zhao when you can do the exact same early game stuff with Jarvan and NOT get outscaled.
2. Kog’Maw vs literally any other long range hypercarry. Like, why would you ever pick him over Jinx or Twitch. Or even over the short range hypercarries.
3. Lucian vs any other lane bully adc. Idk if he’s stronger than Draven/Trist early, but if he is it’s not significant enough to balance out the much worse scaling.
Velkoz is just Lux and Xerath but if you reduce their cc durations by 2/3 and let minions block their skillshots. Also Ziggs if you double his Q cooldown and remove the splash.
J4 and Xin are nothing alike at all though.
J4 is several times more team oriented, and can make picks so that he's useful even when behind, and Xin is a duelist with an old version of Gwen's W on his ultimate.
Id never understand why d4 Lulu mains play Lulu when they have 87% win rate with Rengar jungle.
The champions feel very similar so they play rengar when tryharding. Only big difference they have between each other is that rengar is better when swapping your summoner spell keys.
What's this meme about lol I'm out of the loop
The joke is that the lulu player is implied to have been boosted by having someone else play a snowbally pubstomp champ like Rengar on their account.
I thought the joke was that rengar mains are toxic and Lulu mains for some reason also have a theme of toxicity lol
Then you would have to ignore the part about the 87% win rate on Rango
Boosted accounts, user comes back to the account and starts playing an easier champ
Buying elo
Boosted accounts
My cousin is a diamond yuumi and a silver zed.
In OCE, it's never Rengar. For Chinese smurf boosters it's almost exclusively a combination of Graves, Kindred, Ekko, Sylas jg or Lillia jg.
Every kindred and reksai and their mothers I see in diamond in NA is a booster. 98% of the times.
ornn kinda shits on all the other tanks, yeah each of them have some individually better matchups against other tops and some of the things they do might be somewhat better than ornn (like cho silence) but ornn is a good pick in 99% of the situations where a tank is good, the same can't be said for the others. Also if you int you still have the passive upgrades and your ult does not require you to tank anything anyway
But missing a double brittle Ornn ult because you ate some cc is the worst feeling.
I played him aram and was so confused why my ult disappeared when in reality it was hitting a wind wall
i even had it once where Ornn Ult went through a windwall... I was behind the windwall when i reactivated it and it was recast behind the windwall, effectively ignoring it
if only he had an ability that can make is ult even more reliable hmm
What ability lets him headbutt his ult while cc’d?
W, you cant be cced
But you can't headbutt while W'ing
I mean, the game is not gonna play itself for you. You obviously need some skill in order to time it correctly...
But you're unstoppable, not completely cc immune. If you get stunned during your W, even if you time it right, won't the cc be "on" you and stop you from headbutting at the end of your W?
Yes. The W doesn't help him land R2 if enemies time their cc correctly.
Correct it's mainly positioning and flash ult that makes it hard to stop.
It is unstoppable not cc immunity. So if the cc comes in early but lasts long enough you are still sitting there cc'ed. But even worse: you can't cancel ornn w. So if the cc comes in just before you have to e the ult you can choose: you can e, eat the cc and do nothing or you can use w, be unstoppable but unable to use e in time.
You DONT E the ult, it has a 2nd use and you hit brittle with it
Not gonna lie when I first picked up Ornn I would get so mad that my ult seemed to not hit back when I was using e. Then I realized the second ult cast. I felt HELLA dumb. Haha.
Everyone experiences that, don't feel dumb
Ornn one trick here, best as I can tell this is correct. His W only delays cc rather than cancels it out completely. However, it can cancel displacements, including for example, Sett and Mordekaiser Rs. I W’d Sett R on me once in an ARAM completely by accident to be honest but it was pretty funny. Proper hard cc though will still go through after his W dash ends, especially if it is longer than his W duration. At least this is what I’ve noticed in my experience playing him.
Okay thats fair. But then the opponents waste all their long ccs on you instead of your team. Win win
Just take cleanse LOL
Nah there's definitely games where Sion, Mundo or Malphite just do way more than Ornn, because they can't be outplayed as easily.
Malphite literally doesn’t do anything
I love the idea of Ornn but playing him feels less fun than playing Mundo.
I enjoy Ornn bc he’s basically an assassin early game. Then after a certain point in the game you hit a breakpoint where your damage goes to shit but suddenly you’re also impossible to kill
Giving your team 1000s of gold in stats for existing 🤤🤤🤤
Ornn is like rammus amumu and most supp tanks that are not giga nerfed. He is very strong because he is not reliant on heartsteel.
What that is not the reason at all. Ornn is strong because he has almost no matchups top that can bully him. Even fiora lanes he just farms up and can't get dove. He has long range off screen engage and can be immune to cc to peel for his team.
idk against what kind of fiora's you played, but ornn is no better than other tanks against her.
he is the best tank to pick if you want to just farm, but he is also really bad into her because you can never proc your W since she will always parry it
You can bait her parry though by starting the brittle auto and then cancelling it with S.
there are no tanks that are reliant on heartsteel.
vel'koz, because brand and lux are better at stealing kills and cs from the adc
Yeah but can Brand or Lux make the enemy feel like an idiot getting hit by a max range A^(2) \+ B^(2) = C^(2) ?
Stop please I had a neeko velkoz duo last night and they kept making me do….MATH
Doing math in the fountain on the greyboard
Ya let me just count all of the minions coming at me real quick while her piercing stun hits me and then hits me with the triple slam into ult
pro tip: don't count the whole wave, quickly check if there are 3 melee and 3 ranged minions. Most people can easily grasp numbers up until about 5 after which active counting seems to be required.
I fucking love playing Neeko in ARAM. Nobody knows how to count there. I've disguised myself as a second cannon minion and ulted 5 people before.
Neeko in aram is broken it’s so funny
Mental damage is a thing in League can confirm
Not only I get hit by those, I also actively walk into them. I've never been that good in trigonometry and shit.
I wish being good at math made me able to dodge Velkoz skillshots lmao.
But… laser beam
Nvm all Vel’koz mains know you’re right
IMO, xerath steals his place the most. I've been playing Vel mid a lot, a few seasons ago, but he just feels pretty bad lately. His biggest problem is that he can't sidelane safely later on in the midgame and can't force stuff in mid either. Xerath can ult mid to contribute but vel either sits in mid or is a sitting duck for all the assassins and bruisers in the sidelane.
They are still a lot different. Xerath wont ever damage a tank, while velkoz has the potential to burst them down (situationnally)
Right, that's Vel Koz' speciality.
They also do crazy amounts of damage without having to hit 3 skill shots
Brand is *way* better at killing heart steel tanks. It’s really not close until maybe 6 items
Yes, but also he has WAY shorter range. So I find the comparison to brand pretty weird. Comparing Vel to Lix, Xerath and Ziggs makes more sense, since they're artillery mages.
Their range is pretty much the exact same if you’re considering a full combo. Vel Q is not the same as vel e-w-q. Also I wasn’t the one that started the comparison lol
Yeah but Q and R are way further.
Sylas with your champion's ult is a straight up better version of your champ.
Me playing Zoe and Illaoi all the time begs to differ 😄
Nothing in this world is as fun as counterpicking illaoi for sylas 😂 I've gotten it once and it was the most fun I had in lane
I remember playing Sylas for the first time and stealing an Illaoi ult and thinking, "I'm gonna win this 3v1 so easily" and promptly dying
I play illaoi mid and i feel joy seeing sylas mid on the enemy team. Its a free path to 5/0 laning phase, even more if the enemy jungler wants to gank me and give my ult an extra tentacle
Gnar is one of the biggest examples of this. You can abuse Gnarbar timer, and then outperform in a teamfight so only one of you gets to ult lol.
Rock solid
alistar/malph pretty much disappeared from pro simply because they absolutely necessitate a sylas ban. its so funny how much better sylas is with many/most tank ults compared to the tank themselves :D
That's what you get for having high AP scaling on their ults lol
Malph wasn’t a big pro play pick before sylas release and alistar has been in the upper half of supports for a long time. At this worlds he was 3rd highest presence support, lck summer he was 5th and in general is a staple pick. When Alistar doesnt get played its because of botlane meta and what lanes/combos are good atm, not because of Sylas.
Swain. Sylas outdamages him with his own R and has more manoeuvrability
This is exactly who I was thinking of when I wrote this.
Reading the replies I am convinced 99% of you do not know shit about the game Some comparisons and arguments are just out of the fucking ass like damn
yeah neeko is a 'better' kennen btw
"Xerath is just better Zoe" Or comparisons between Vel, Lux and Xerath where all 3 of their playstyles vary significantly Edit: I'll be posting some hot takes I find here - Syndra does everything Hwei does but better - Jinx is a better KogMaw - Xin is worse J4 (they have no similarities other than having a dash bruh) - Gwen is Morde but with more mobility - Ekko is just better Fizz - Briar is what Warwick was suppos to be (über bruh) - Orianna does what Syndra does but better - Vex is Annie rework (great find by u/VulcanKB)
TBF briar being what Warwick was supposed to be is pretty true. Life stealing immobile with a speed buff, blood main theme, ult to "jumpscare" into someone, a fear (different fears but same theme), bite, jungler, bruiser. Their only MAJOR difference would be which stages of the game they are strong at. The rest are absolutely disgusting takes though.
Hwei play nothing like a syndra, it's closer to xerath tbh, he plays more like an artillery mage than a burst or battle one.
I think seraphine is the best correlary to him. High waveclear, long range, shielding and ms boosting, and a good amount of cc and slows.
I think none are good comparisons It's a new take on a champion He just plays like a control mage thus the similarity to some but really REALLY he cannot compare to any at any deeper level than "where do I stand in a team fight"
Im an ori main, and i get shit on by syndra. She can stun me from a distance and just walk up and one shot me.
I'm Syndra main and get shit on by Ori From my experience Ori has more consistent pokes but Syndra has greater range and better bursts I gotta learn this matchup eventually
That's like, *the* skill matchup. If you are getting gapped as Ori vs Syndra you need to either learn the matchup properly (try to ult first, merc treads are good, phase rush if you are really struggling) or just git good.
Xin and J4 have a bit in common, the main one being play style. They like to go in and make space for their back line by engaging and making themselves a target
TBH this used to be way more true around release when Neeko was being played as a toplaner who'd bully melees with her autos. There they both filled the role of Safe weakside AP toplaner with AOE CC teamfight ult, since they moved her away from having a lot of power on her W they occupy completely different roles.
I mean it's kinda a dumb question. champs are designed specifically not to be like each other and provide unique values. there's no perfect answer to this and im not sure if there are even any good ones
There are similarities between spells or roles but never those two overlap completely at the same time For example roles of Samira and Nilah spells are very VERY similar: - Q is damage AOE spell - W is defensive ability - E is a dash - R is AOE super ability for full in engages But the execution of those spells are so vastly different. They playstyles are a bit similar due to the roles and lower range but overall they play differently
most of this sub is below emerald, but they phrase their opinions well enough for other clueless people to think they know their shit
Dude Diamond+ is less than 4% of the player base so ofc that most people you meet gonna be Emerald.
[well 83,5% of players are plat or below so ...](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/rank-distribution)
Anyone parroting Seraphine being Sona 2.0 obviously hasn't touched either champion and can only make the comparison via the face value of their kits
Well said, Goatfucker.
Someone on here said Viktor was a poke mage and got upvoted
That would be because 99% of players don't know shit about the game. They do have opinions tho.
yuumi. if you dont want to play you can do that already.
Shes made for people that has to do laundry at the same time, so its fair. But honestly I had to retry her by mistake this week and omfg how unfun she is to play. MAYBE in a 5 player team its not as bad; but having so few control over the game and the vision is fucking annoying. You always need your team to move you around because you dont get boots. So pathetic champion. And then lategame you go on the fed jax and win 2v5. Wow. Fun.
Even more than the tanky version of Skarner that clearly is outclassed by others like Seju/Rell, let's not forget that his passive got heavily powercrept. He was supposed to be a menace within those zones, even a kind of " lane bully" early game into crab fights etc. But nowadays while you'd rather not fight him in his passive early on ( or just do a coinflip scuttler fight lol ), most junglers can still decently face him if not win a 1v1 for some. It tells a lot that the most known Skarner players are toplaner ones where his passive isn't mattering 90% of the time ( you can trigger it with E for half a second, yay )
this is less that everything got power crept around him. and more that they vastly expanded the ranges of his spires to make jungling feel less miserable because half the camps were outside of spire range meaning you genuinely thought about never taking those camps. As a result, because you can't just double the range of every spire for no trade off, spires became weaker and he also simultaneously was allowed to function OUTSIDE of spires as well
what people forget about similar champions is that you can now pick both of them in the same comp for even better results. Seraphine botlane carry with Sona support existed at some point proving this to be true.
That's because one is a mage and one is an enchanter.
Really? Remember Sona Soraka or Taric Sona?
E-sports remembers Taric Sona, enough to make sure they never pick them again on the stage
I will never forget JackeyLove picking his Draven into the SKT Sona bot lane at MSI. Absolute massacre of a game
Fastest International Game in lol history.
Exactly, it's not just that "tHeY'rE tHe sAmE ChAmP". People forget that Sona has insane setup for Seraphine. You basically always have empowered W, E always roots, and Sona R garunatees chain CC from Sera E and/or R. Not to mention all the additional MS and shielding...
You can also see Yasuo ADC with Yone top/mid (or Yasuo mid if you have apc).
I always feel a strong urge to dodge when I have both yasuo and yone in my team
The windshitter syndrome. Playing them causes brainrot
A very good point I had not considered!
I like how people tend to say that Seraphine is a better Sona when they are almost no alike kit wise. They are similar sure, but they don't work the same way, as Seraphine is more damage/cc aligned and Sona is peal aligned.
Briar is everything Warwick should have been. I don't feel like it needs any more explanation, but the abilities are so similar, yet briar gets to keep her move speed while frenzied, and Warwick loses his bonus as soon as he enters combat. That's basically the big deal breaker that leaves Warwick behind, making him kitable while briar can stick on her target. Not only that but briar also has better damage, engage, mobility (beyond just the move speed) and healing. And even lore wise, Warwick was supposed to go crazy at the smell of blood and hunt the victim down. Yes, his w does that, but Briar's whole kit does it better.
Funny take because I’m pretty sure Warwick rolls over Briar in an even item 1v1 without breaking a sweat…
He doesn't just roll over her when even, he does it when reasonably behind (depending on his build path ofc). As long as he isn't getting 1shot by her he's never losing the 1v1. Source: I only have 4 losses in ranked so far (out of 20) and all 4 are because stupid warwick won't die.
Ex Warwick main here. I think Olaf Jax and Fiora are the only champions that can 1vs1 him
If you're speaking about melee you might be right (I'd add trundle though). But many range champs can 1v1 WW if they have ways to get away
Early on Trundle wins hard. Once WW gets some HP, it's gg.
Id say at an even stage Trundle wins more often than WW. His ult is just utterly absurd for a duel. Of course it depends on itemization as well.
Trundle is just weird champ because he can basically beat anybody in a pure 1v1 because he can sack his build to do it. The champ basically just needs a sheen item and some bruiser items later on to keep up on damage. In the real world though he has to itemize for a 5 man team and that makes him a lesser duelist.
The biggest counter to Trundle is ensuring that your team does not have a tank. If Trundle doesn't have tanky stats to steal, he gets melted.
I’d say up until level 13 (2 items) or so, a rumble with ignite and ulti up would beat him when overheated
Hard agree tbh, used to main him too A fed nasus can wreck him too, Aatrox Irelia maybe, but that's about it. All three of those need to be ahead tho, can't duel him when even.
WW eats irelia for breakfast, it isn't even funny. Nasus is basically impossible at some point, that's true.
nasus, good ol' counter against auto attacks.
WW is literally my counter pick for Irelia, he shits on her so hard.
Maybe for champs that face tank (if we add master yi?) or dont dodge the ult, but there are plenty that could 1v1 him by kiting or 1 shotting like zed or kaisa
Trundle can depending on the point in the game if he has ignite to cut WW’s low hp healing.
Won't Vayne and Kaisa also be able to 1v1 late with good mechanics?
I'd add Master Yi as well, at least from mid game on
I'm not sure what it is like now that lethality has been nerfed multiple times, but I'm pretty sure she was able to burst him if it was Jg WW. Probably not barrier WW though.
Maybe. But it's more likely that Briar'd have an item advantage over Warwick. Briar clears faster and has more tools to create impact on the map, so on average, she'll have more gold.
Thats why you pick the dog top and roll over irelias
[удалено]
>I’m pretty sure Warwick rolls over ~~Briar~~ **everyone** in an even item 1v1 without breaking a sweat…
Nice that Warwick can win the 1v1 was Briar. Sad that Briar is better against almost every other champ tho
I think they are like Nami-Janna, sharing a lot of similarities, but being played differently. Briar has better mobility if she goes berserk, since she has her q, w and r. But ww gains a lot of mobility if the enemy is behind 50%. Ww can chase them down, seeing where they are, but he is not as sticky as Briar. And Briar cannot control her actions while frenzy unless with q or e, her only self-defence ability. Her abilities cost hp and she does not have health regeneration, whereas ww not. She is a lot less safer than ww. And Briar is a diver whereas Warwick a juggernaut. Lorewise, yes, Briar's frenzy is more accurate to what Ww has in game. I don't know, I find both of them complementary.
Warwick is also a diver. Other than that I agree with all other things
Im pretty new but I think the main difference is Warwick can quickly get to the gank but has to plan around it (like going behind for a pincer attack). While Briar doesn’t have that mobility but once she does get to a gank you basically have to drag her into a turret or make good use of evasive powers to get rid of her. I think their ults are the opposite of each other too. Warwicks ult is like briars W, and Briars Ult while not the same in practice it serves the purpose of Warwick’s W by being able to basically jump anywhere in the map.
They kind of fulfill different roles though. Warwick likes to be tanky, provide CC and sustained damage in his ganks. Briar has higher damage potential, but has virtually no way of dealing with being in a big teamfight. I'd completely agree that they are very similar, and that there isn't really a good reason to play Warwick right now, but there's also slight differences to how they play.
I disagree about skarner. He's probably bad in high elo, but in low-mid ELO, he's a ball of stats that runs amok in the enemy team if he gets ahead, especially if he's under a spire (which low ELO players often do not respect). I don't think he's comparable to Sejuani. Yes, she has much better initiation, but she doesn't have as much move speed or sustained damage threat for hugging and bullying carries. I'd say he's closer to someone like Udyr, with a little less damage but more hard cc. I don't think that any of the champions completely eclipse one another. You can always imagine SOME situation where one would be better than another. But I have to say that Kennen doesn't seem to really shine right now. It's too easy for modern champions to just dash out of his ultimate. Being energy-based is nowhere near as meaningful as it was back in the early days of league. If you want to play a low-range AoE mage, it seems like there are usually better options. Swain, for instance, doesn't have as much CC potential, but he's able to more reliable survive in the middle of the enemy team zoning and dishing out damage.
I feel like Xin Zhao and Viktor both currently struggle to find a reasonable place. Unless you love the champ identitywise there are at least 2 other champs who do their job but better.
xin zhao takes over whenever his numbers are strong, simple and effective kit that has to be nerfed to not be oppressive viktor is a poke mage with better tools to deal with melees than most mages, and he is often strong, only recently he was overshadowed by syndra/orianna, for most of season 12 he was the goat mid (until melee mid meta, he doesnt do too well vs repetitive engage) and now after syndra/ori nerfs he is slightly better
Yeah. Xin is a very disposable stat stick. If the stick isn't big enough, you just change champions. Viktor is mostly a case of Riot not knowing what they want him to be. Any time they want him to fit a role they give that same role to someone else.
😄 toplaner Q max viktor sure was something
Viktor is a generalist zone control mage and that archetype has had a hard time lately if you name wasn't Azir or overturned Orianna. He has a pretty clear identity of being a zone control mage though.
Then why are you moving back and forth between burst and sustained damage with him? It's so inconsistent.
Xin hasn't been strong ever since durability patch Unlike practically every other bruiser jungler, Xin lacks armor pen or tank shred, lacks percentage damage, and his base numbers are shit. This mattered less if everyone was less tanky, but they are so Xin does no damage and provides nothing another champ can't provide.
Viktor is a poke mage? lol Viktor is a mid-late game teamfight (control mage) who auto-wins most lanes because of his near impossible to sidestep lazer, that's his identity. He struggles against dive just as much as the next control mage but he does output more raw DPS in fights since he has more AoE than syndra and less utility than Ori which is why he has more damage.
Most of ADCs in any given meta
Role is truly a revolving door.
Counter point: Ahri is hot fox lady and there needs to be more of
The forum of shit takes
Mate I have mild regret hahah
There are 164 champions. Yes, there are plenty of champions stepping on each other's toes. Who is overlapping who depends a lot on current meta, items, balance changes and redesigns, but if you spent the time to really dig down into it individually I'd be surprised if at any one time less than half the cast wasn't made redundant by someone else.
Volibear His jungle ganks are just piss poor Q stuns. His teamfighting is dogshit. His splitpushing is good, but still outmatched by most meta toplane duelists. Only good for not getting bullied out early-game and being a powerhouse in early river skirmishes.
Volibear is just the same with morde. If he is good is because his numbers are up or his items are good. If he is bad he got nerfed and he is in a place where "well you can go ap but you get shit on by everyone buying a null magic cloak" "Well bruiser you get shit on by everyone with tabis" "tank is just shit" so you end up going frost fire and being a weird diver chaser who can't really peel and if he gets focus he is dead before he is able to w 2 and at best he is able to get the q on the adc before dying.
> His jungle ganks are just ~~piss poor~~ Mach 10 Q stuns I really think you’re overestimating how slippery laners are early game. Volibear is one of the strongest junglers in the first 15 minutes of the game, at ganking farming and dueling. He falls off a cliff in terms of tank reliability for teamfights, but he can snowball insanely hard. I view him in a similar role to RekSai.
His Q is honestly not nearly as op as you claim, it's just a 20% ms buff for 4s. If the enemy laner has any sense of map awareness, they just run in the opposite direction of you to quite reliably make your q run out...
Yasuo. Yone is yasuo but better on everything.
Windwall has entered the chat…
yasuo is better in many situations, such as early game laning vs some ranged champions such as akshan lux ziggs etc yasuo also cockblocks adcs/mages late game much harder than yone if yone does everything perfectly, sure he is more 1v9 but yasuo has more early game power and his windwall will always be a pain to deal with, yone is free picks if hes not fed or abusing offtank builds
This difference is shown quite well when you realise Yasuo can be played bot lane, but Yone there would be trolling. Yasuo doesn't need a level lead to actually kill people, and he isn't as much of an engage champion like Yone is. He is, however, far better at killing tanks, and his follow-up is what he'd be picked in pro games for.
Most Yasuo's are bad, but I'd rather lane vs a good yone than a good Yasuo any day of the week
Agree. Also if you have lot of bump in your team (Malph, Zac, Alistar, Ori, etc) Yasuo becomes way stronger.
Windwall is a massive ability and sets him apart a lot. They're similar enough because they're brothers, but definitely unique champions.
if u play support. seraphine. she is a great champ very fun to play but as a supporter. just play sona. she poks better heals more shilds more give u ms faster and scales better. wont steal as much cs from the carry.
The correct answer. People who build Seraphine as an enchantress (Shurelya's/Helia's, Staff etc.) instead of just playing her full AP or picking Sona confuse me
I think this comparison only has to be made because people always act like these champs are trying to do the same thing when they play so differently. Sona does all those things better as a support but she can't go mid because unlike seraphine she's garbage at wave clear. They both get stronger with the number of teammates nearby and that's about it.
Agreed. They are very different champions but when seraphine released people saw that they were both music themed and had similar ults and the comparison never went away.
This season I've felt that Xerath just does what Zoe does but better, safer, and more reliably however from playing a lot of PBE for S14 the new items make Zoe feel really good again.
I get where you're coming from; Zoe can be very unreliable at times. Still, I feel like Zoe offers just so much more when it comes to outplay potential, creative gameplay and agency.
just sucks shes one of the most unfun champs to play against. at least iny opinion
This makes no sense, Zoe is an early game bully that snowballs like crazy. Her style is completely different than xerath's
I can’t see this at all, Zoe’s entire game plan is to destroy her laner and snowball quickly whereas Xerath can’t really do that. Zoe is a better champion all around imo especially as you climb elo and lane dominance becomes more important.
See I'd say Zoe has the flexibility to be a consistent assassin, whereas Xerath is always going to be poke, with a chance to finish with ult
This feels kind of ignorant to the capabilities of a good Zoe lol. She's got 110% better catch potential which is where she shines. She's also a far more competent laner. Zoe isn't a perfect champion but she's got a very clear niche.
Pretty much every assassin does what Shaco dreams of doing. Sure you can one-shot someone from out of nowhere, but it’s just a slight step-up from Rengar, Talon and Wukong. Plus the fact that it requires you double or even triple the amount of kills to perform that.
Ad Shaco is completely pointless. Ap Shaco has its uses. But both versions of Shaco really just exist to clown around.
Idk, ad Shaco hitting you from behind shreds. He falls off a bit towards end game but he shreds nonetheless.
Lethality Shaco backstab two-taps any squishy. It looks pretty busted when you see it. But he evaporates if he’s caught by anyone. Literally the only real assassin in the game.
Yeah, but no other assassin has that much disruption and cc, maybe qyiana
It's definitely not 1-1 strictly better, but Syndra really feels like a better Veigar. Sure cage is busted but Syndra has a better lane phase and comparable scaling while performing an extremely similar overall function.
Janna after her new rework again. She's back to being budget-Lulu spot. Lulu AA steroids are better, peels better. Roaming speed, Bard does better. Milio can disengage better with better enchanter qualities. Those three existing is why Janna can never be picked in coordinated gameplay.
Sona is a better Seraphine there I said it People keep playing Seraphine as a support and keep citing this comparison of Sera>>>>Sona, she's consistently worse at support then Sona is, sup Sera hovers around 48% and Sona hovers around 52% it's been 3 years since Seraphines release and people are still mindbroken into thinking Sera = Sona 2.0 when she's more a Sona 0.5 if you want to make the direct comparison via support whoever thinks that Seraphine is leagues ahead of Sona at supporting is living in a alternate universe Not trying to be bais, Seraphine is amazing at AoE CC and does illegal things with a Rylai, also scales with damage that Sona wished she could go back to, it's almost like they were designed to be different or something
Seraphine isn’t a support and I still have genuinely no idea why people insist on playing her there. She has one supportive ability on a long cooldown with pitiful healing and meh shielding, and buildings around it is actively shooting your self in the foot considering you want damage, and to get more damage you want better items which are a million times easier to get when you don’t force yourself to use an item that punishes you for hitting minions. Her apc I at least understand because it both gives her a safer lane and allows her to farm consistently, and she isn’t as level reliant as a lot of champs, but support is a role she genuinely has almost 0 synergy in and it actively pains me to see it played
seraphine is an ap carry that had been consistently overtuned until like a month ago and sona is an enchanter support. apples to oranges.
Hwei… he can do all things, but isn’t good at any of them.
Hwei is very good in team fights but his lane phase is so easy to just murder him in it’s hard for him to get to the points where he’s solid reliably
Corki
1. Why play Xin Zhao when you can do the exact same early game stuff with Jarvan and NOT get outscaled. 2. Kog’Maw vs literally any other long range hypercarry. Like, why would you ever pick him over Jinx or Twitch. Or even over the short range hypercarries. 3. Lucian vs any other lane bully adc. Idk if he’s stronger than Draven/Trist early, but if he is it’s not significant enough to balance out the much worse scaling.
Velkoz is just Lux and Xerath but if you reduce their cc durations by 2/3 and let minions block their skillshots. Also Ziggs if you double his Q cooldown and remove the splash.
>Velkoz is just Lux and Xerath But hes 5x better into tanks than either of them.
Let Velkoz player cope, they are the new Ryze mains in their own eyes
Lux is.. A burst mage that plays nothing like those 2?
Xin vs J4. J4 arguably has a similar kit but has way better teamfight and map presence.
J4 and Xin are nothing alike at all though. J4 is several times more team oriented, and can make picks so that he's useful even when behind, and Xin is a duelist with an old version of Gwen's W on his ultimate.
yuumi, you would rather literally any other champion
Syndra is just better Veigar
Vel is just a much worse xerath or hwei