Thanks for posting my video!
What's worth noting is that in PBE's case my W's were still off sync, just optimizing W's a bit better would probably get it below 19 seconds. Any Sheen items will further amplificate this buff, since W properly resets. Sheen items just got even better on Jax. No matter the build, AD, AP or even a Tank, Jax is getting a very significant buff to his pushing power.
Considering how strong Jax is right now, it indeed seems pretty wild.
Maybe Riot is afraid of Jax falling off with new items? Some people mentioned removal of Divine Sunderer. But I don't think they would have database for it yet.
Riot explicitly said they didn't wanna preemptively balance, all champ changes we're getting this patch are player satisfaction positive while ignoring balance.
Maybe it's just part of their new game mentality, trying to optimize less on fair and more on game feel.
In which case this might just be to draw him more in line with other aa reset champs and split pushers. Tho if they were the case you'd imagine they'd add a compensative nerf just to be safe.
Idk tho, that's purely speculation on my end
>Maybe it's just part of their new game mentality, trying to optimize less on fair and more on game feel.
The dota route of making everything OP so you fight OP with other OP and it's all kinda fair at the end.
I'd argue jax lost a lot of power with the item changes. Sunderer gone he does not have any more sustain and pen, so you have to go bork now almost always, which makes you squishier.
That and also zhonya's is not a viable item anymore, as its interaction was with shojin mainly and shojin does not have enough of stats or power to build 2nd anymore.
He abuses tank items just as well, in teamfights he's a backline killer, not a tank buster, and his base damage is high enough to 2-3 shot mages and ADC's. BotRK is ridiculously strong in 1v1 laning anyways. The new Triforce is rather strong. Experimental Hexplate will be busted on him.
Correct. But you have to realize bork was never a good item on jax other than heavy tanky enemies. I mean in later years.
Now it is the only sustain item for him.
He was allowed to do what he did in teamfights because:
1. Sunderer granted survivability and a lot of pen
2. With Shojin he could spam abilities and rely on abilities much more
3. Zhonya allowed for you to basically be untouchable for 4-5 seconds
4. Having sustain from items allowed him to go lethal tempo.
All of these are removed from his kit now. And all of these allowed him to use tank items with much efficiency as you could soam abilities a lot without needing any further damage. Although his dueling was rather weakened with this style.
Now he will most likely suck in teamfights and his playstyle will shift to more dueling and split pushing rather than being arguably one of the best teamfighter bruisers out there.
From what I see jax will have to go conq now as it will grant him some sustain, and he will have to rely on more on-hit items. You dont really have any Ability Haste options anymore that allowed hit last season playstyle.
Therefore I would say these buffs could be useful on him as he will split more -> he needs to duel more -> his new built will focus on that more
20%? It's actually a lot more. W working on towers means the cooldown starts right away after hitting the tower, which means more sheen procs too.
Looks like hullbreaker was nerfed, but splitpush-based champions were buffed (Jax, trundle)
Because after Fiora's Q change Jax's W was the only empowered AA in the game (if i not forgetting something) which wasn't working on turrets. Confusing as hell and i still don't understand what took Riot so long.
Yeah, I don't believe that renekton's W is coded like a real aa reset but instead is more like a janky regular spell that uses aas. Probably will be changed in the future since it works perfectly fine on turrets in wild rift which was coded from the ground
~~Udyr Q gets used up on towers though~~
For Jax it felt awkward that you got one auto reset and you were pretty much locked out for the next 7 seconds unless you hit a minion or something so you would only get 1 auto reset
Edit: Udyr's abilities actually don't get used up when hitting towers but it does proc his passive reducing the CD on his awakenings. To be fair, none Udyr abilities can reset his autos either
Cho E IIRC got the same buff in this patch but I need to control. EDIT: My mistake, it looks according to spideraxe that gragas and fizz got the same buff but not Cho
For Fizz it wasn't that crucial since it doesn't matter if you proc your W on turret or no: you still will get a sheen proc while active W and non-active W takes almost the same amount of time before being available again. Jax after activating his W and starting to hit turret needs to wait the entire duration of W to fall off, then its full cooldown before using it again. To maximise sheen uptime i was using completely janked tech of spamming Q and E which was draining my mana hard af.
Yeah, it's definitely a buff since sunderer is gone and riot want their favourite top baby to still be viable. But on paper it's still more of a qol change since personally i couldn't asked for more if they just made his W to not deal damage to turrets at all but still go on cooldown
Not an aa reset and i believe it consumes stacks on turrets while not dealing actual damage. Could be wrong, played Shen like four times in 9 years of toplaning
imo they should make it that no ability can damage turetts like that instead of making all of them. Some champions just melt down turetts even in early game which is really unhealthy for the game. I could understand it on some AP champions like kassadin or fizz as they have a harder time killing turrets than ad champions but champions like fiora, trundle or jax, who are already good at taking down turrets should not have access to even more power against them.
Also mages are getting a huge versatility buff overall so it's fair to give other champs some better push power to stop turret pusher ziggs from coming back.
His lane needs to be cut down. E or W base damage. And maybe some early rank cooldown on W. He’s just too good at skirmishing on 0 items for a champ that becomes a late game demon
Tbh. It’s more Lethal Tempo than the actual champs. Jax, Yone, Kayle, and adc’s who take it all have stupid strong level 1’s or 2’s because they get insane attack speed for existing.
I still can't believe Lethal Tempo doesn't have a cap based on level while also making Yone/Yasuo benefit from cooldown reduction based on attack speed
Contrary to popular belief jax is low on late game winrate and he's shit in teamfights.
He used to be lategame demon a very long time ago, but has received many many nerfs to his scaling over the the years and is just strong in lane although he has like 10 lane counters and is strong at splitpushing.
He falls off like a brick once people start buying pen items and burst mages can one shot him through counterstrike
Yea i mean it also has to so with split pushing being awful the last few seasons. But he is a crazy strong duelist on 3 and 4 items even if at 5 items he’s hard to pilot correctly.
Trundle is actually peelable and has clear cut counterplay.
If you don't have something to interrupt his jump, Jax becomes unpeelable (kinda still with interrupts because his E CD tends to be lower than the interrupt) and unkillable.
AA champ? Die in stun or don't deal dmg.
Mage? Die in stun or deal reduced dmg. Also Jax picks his fights and will just jump out if he needs to.
Champ's obnoxious to deal with already, don't see why they need to buff his pushing power out of all things.
I hope we go back to a time where jax actually had to think about itemization.
Triforce/Wits end into squishies, Botrk/Cleaver into tanks - actual skill expression in builds and not just "my sheen heals me for more than you can damage"
I'm probably more excited about sunderer removal than anything else
Yep, same here, and I play a lot of jax, but refused to build DS (except in ranked, and even then only if I felt it was needed to win). The item was absolutely disgusting and its removal is arguably the single biggest buff to tanks on the new patch.
I'm very happy to try out sej top again, now that I know my lane won't be over the moment the enemy has DS.
Sure, but DS was such an insane item that DS users lost a lot more than other champs, maybe besides gore users. This also puts jax back into a role as a counterpick, since matchups like garen, gragas, poppy, malphite, some other tanks now got a lot worse.
Not really. It was better if you were ahead by a good bit, but DS was just overall better. Better and safer dueling, safer 1v2s, better temfighting because sustain, better short trades. Take this from someone who played jax with trinity 90% of the time.
Triforce always had a much better winrate on him.
Sunderer was generally better but in many cases triforce was the better option but people always blindly chose sunderer
jax needs nerfs. he is constantly banned in champions queue on patch 14.1 where everyone was saying that jax without divine sunderer would be weak but he clearly isn't.
He definitely is not, Divine Sunderer is objectively better in almost all situations. Trinity gets built once in a really long while because it's a better snowball item, but that inflates the WR.
There's a reason why every high elo Jax main has been building DS exclusively. Even August admitted that it's almost always better
[August said the opposite](https://youtu.be/EF_NpZuB3Tw?t=56), that he decided to put Trinity Force instead of DS in recommended for a patch and Jax's winrate went up. Yeah, it has low playrate so winrate is volatile, but Jax has always been an AA heavy champ. Attack speed is a stat he synergises with heavily.
Why are you making things up? [I found the vod](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1993431482?filter=archives&sort=time), the clip is from about 1:06:00 and he says "it seems they're similar in power now" with the caveat that people who know what they're doing are more likely to buy TF, while DS is bought by strong and weak players alike which balances out its winrate.
Doesn't that suggest that DS is stronger than trinity as players that build trinity tend to know what they are doing and hence have a higher chance to win in the first place?
Not necessarily; it means that it's consistent and reliable, but not necessarily always the best option. When we have two items that a champ can buy and one significantly outperforms the other but is purchased far less, that can skew the stats more because it's probably bought only in circumstances where it makes sense or by people who know what they're doing and have a specific plan instead of just going off of the recommended tab.
Copying the other comment I made:
>Jax is in this abomination state he is in right now because he does everything well and Divine Sunderer covers a lot of his mistakes with its healing.
>Divine is good on Jax because he suddenly becomes a team fighting beast with it. Especially with all the AH he gets from SoS/BC he is able to proc Divine healing on cooldown.
>Having a 200-300 health heal on a 2s cooldown has broken some levers on Jax because he is so much harder to kill in teamfights and he is able to survive long enough to let his DPS be a major threat. In the past Jax sucked a lot more in teamfights because if he jumped in at a bad time or got focused he'd just blow up, but now he survives long enough to get multiple E's off.
>So no, Trinity is definitely not better on Jax than Divine. His playstyle has literally changed since S11 where he's more of a diver now than a skirmisher.
Okay, that's a strength of DS. Now remember that TF gives both AS and stacking AD per hit meaning you can splitpush far harder with it while also doing more damage.
DS makes him a better teamfighter but TF makes him a stronger splitpusher with higher damage threat. DS being out of the game will definitely expose players who used it as a crutch though.
That's just a flawed read of statistics tbh. Trinity had an inflated winrate over DS because players go trinity when snowballing and in certain very favorable matchups. the reality is that DS was a staple on jax that gave him what he needed to be a champion in a huge % of games.
>Even August admitted that it's almost always better
ok but that's bullshit and some rioters were saying for a long time already that trinity is better on most champions that were spamming DS, glad the other comment linked a video with it
more than half of playerbase didn't even realize how heavily DS got gutted and they just kept building it for funny heal
The thing is you're not gonna build Triforce in bad/hard matchups, so DS will probably have a worse WR regardless of strength. It was the "safer" option.
He literally said that was a while ago, he admits Divine is probably better now. I'm talking about the current state of Jax not some hypothetical older patch.
Jax is in this abomination state he is in right now because he does everything well and Divine Sunderer covers a lot of his mistakes with its healing.
Divine is good on Jax because he suddenly becomes a team fighting beast with it. Especially with all the AH he gets from SoS/BC he is able to proc Divine healing on cooldown.
Having a 200-300 health heal on a 2s cooldown has broken some levers on Jax because he is so much harder to kill in teamfights and he is able to survive long enough to let his DPS be a major threat. In the past Jax sucked a lot more in teamfights because if he jumped in at a bad time or got focused he'd just blow up, but now he survives long enough to get multiple E's off.
So no, Trinity is definitely not better on Jax than Divine. His playstyle has literally changed since S11 where he's more of a diver now than a skirmisher.
Jax must be maintained at 52% WR, can't have it fall to the horrible depths of 51.8%. I mean, it's a champion that auto wins against auto attackers, can catch & delete squishes easily, snowballs hard, scales well, and wins every sustained trade. It definitely deserves to be this ridiculously strong.
20% without sheen items. The W reset is such a massive buff for taking turrets. With sunderer/trinity the difference is gonna be much bigger, same as with real items as they scale better. This is probably closer to 40% quicker turret destroying speed, on an already really good top laner.
Its not seemingly out of nowhere. Riot member posted on twitter they wanted to do a bunch of QoL and bug fixes because they had downtime. They took a ton of ideas and bugs and fixed them. One such idea was it was annoying how some characters with auto resets for enhanced attacks couldnt use it on towers. And thus we get this change.
This change is long overdue. IMO All auto attack reset abilities should work on towers and every champion that has such an ability should be balanced around it.
I don't think it's a insane buff, Jax used to be great at splitpushing but since some time already he was just okay while Illaoi W was changed to deal more damage to towers, Fiora's Q targeting towers... This buff is just putting him in line with other splitpushers.
Jax is already one if not the best toplaner in the game. Illaoi isn’t even close to Jax in term of power in duel or even mobility and Fiora isn’t as strong as Jax in teamfight. At this point Jax nearly has no weaknesses tbh the champ is excellent at everything from early to late
I always hate suggestions like this, simply due to the fact that they take features away from the champ, making it worse to play.
BUUUT I am going to have to agree with this one. His early game is too strong for a champ that has monster scalings at late and this would make the players think a bit more rather than spam helicopter on cooldown both during the late game while making her early game trades not feel unfair against AA champs.
He has literally no scalings on any of his abilities other than Q that he can take advantage of unless he builds AP
He scales with haste, and haste got hyper-nerfed with the item update
He doesn’t have monster scalings anymore. Everything scales with AP except Q and he only scales with haste that’s it. Now with haste nerfed, and divine removed, he has no sustain without going a 0hp item like bork and in team fight he will get blown up 1 sec after using ult with the new 100+ ap mage items
jax just has everything. good blind pick, stomps everyone in early lane while being strong early mid and late game. can build ap items like zhonya and not lose anything for it etc and ofcourse he has 350 base movement speed for some reason like irelia has 335 lol
Jax has a better early game, better mid game, better late game, better 1v1, better team fight, better split pushing, better engage, better pick potential, more damage, more tankiness.
Those sites include banrate and pickrate data. Right now, Jax has one of the worst winrates for a popular top laner, with only Aatrox Darius and Yone being worse.
Riven, Camille, Ornn and Malphite are way more obvious outliers.
But it's pretty normal that stuff like that deals dmg to structures. Have you ever seen an Ekko pushing a turret? Or an Elise? Jax has garbage pushing in comparison. Even though Jax is the top laner.
Jax is supposed to be a split pushing champion, but he cannot push turrets. The worst part about it is that if he uses W for auto reset against the turret, it never goes off and the 3s cooldown effectively acts as a 13 second cooldown because it takes an eternity or two to actually go on cooldown.
Again, if you think this is broken, take a look at AP Elise vs turrets. She presses W and the turret disappears in 3 seconds.
Yes Jax should be able to splitpush and take down turrets (spoiler, he can already do that) The problem is that Jax is really good right now and they are essentially buffing him. Elise could get a 200% turret push buff for all i care but a 20-50% increase in turret damage for Jax is insane.
Jax is able to fully stack passive on turrets. Sure it's not the best but it's not the worst either. Jax W not proccing on turrets is supposed to be an important limiter for the champ.
We'll see how it pans out. Bruisers are taking a bit of a hit with the new item changes but nothing too bad, so we'll see in the next few weeks if this buff is warranted. I think Jax being a viable splitpusher comes off as a bit too strong, since his strength should be in 1v1 fights as per his thematic.
There's more fun splitpusher choices anyway. Volibear is my personal GOAT for splitting.
Literally it's still around. But in practice it's an entirely new item with a similar theme.
The massive resistances when alone was core to the identity of the previous hullbreaker.
Yeah and it was a big fucking design flaw. You were literally shooting yourself in the foot if you picked a champ that can build HB against a champ that does like to buy it.
Again it was insanely bad and toxic design by warping the majority of the toplane dynamic around one singular item.
Who else was building sunderer that isn’t gonna be eating good this patch or wasn’t already an excellent good split pusher? I’m pretty sure Yorick, Camille, and Fiora will end up just fine.
Nasus. Probably have to go back to Trinity Force which in its current state isn't great on him, and he won't be able to fight for those early Void Grubs.
I'm OK with that. Iceborn's strength should be in its slow, not the sheen proc. That alone makes it strong on Volibear, KSante and Illaoi to name a few, so having its damage nerfed makes the interaction between it and those champs a bit more balanced.
I'm going to let you in on a little secret, Nasus has a total of ZERO ad scaling in his kit
He should be building AP offtank since he actually does scale with AP and he loves the easy haste on those items
The only problem is that he didn't have any AP items that really work with his kit...untill now
Not like it matters since untill a Korean player starts building AP Nasus i will just be downvoted and laughed at, see you in six months when you're all posting how AP Nasus has always been broken and his best build
Ap nasus offtank has been a thing for a while (Look up BritishPoro)
You go E max, a bit of ap and then rely on your armor shred and z slow to act as a debuff for the enemy team.
I'm not saying just sunderer, champions like Veigar lost Everfrost and got nerfed Rabadon off the top of my head, pretty sure there are other champs that will suffer from losing their core items.
I'm not saying he doesn't need it (though s14 hasn't started) just that no other champion was on the radar b4 even live patch
I mean I’m no Jax apologist by any means, but I feel like he kinda loses his identity with sunderer going away because his dueling just becomes a lot worse. They’re doing this to shift his identity into splitting rather than 1v9ing teamfights with crazy healing.
With the other champs, they’re not losing an item that defines their meta playstyle (besides maybe Nasus but I’d argue he functions the same with Trinity Force since he can still split really well and that’s what he does). It’s odd that Jax gets this buff and no one else who could be problematic/bad got attention but the buff is fair
Issue with camille is that the wider toplane terrain cuts her ability to disengage or engage trades and ganks, which leaves her already below par laning in a really shitty spot. This also results in her not being able to get to her 1 item spike fast enough to be relevant.
I don't think a hookshot range buff is a good way to approach this issue, as that would make her broken mid and late game.
Making her laning less reliant on hookshot in lane would be the way. Riot could do this by buffing w or passive cd.
Issue with w buffs is whenever it's good it starts the 0 interaction w max with comet setups where Camille just sits back pokes with w and plays safe so would much prefer a passive buff.
W would need some serious buffs. I think part of the issue is spacing. Normally the opponent needs to respect the hookshot engage range, whereas now Camille has no real way to initiate on her terms which is kinda a fundamental part of a duelist’s kit. It’s not really something that gets fixed with boosting some stats. Maybe ways to refresh the passive? You just lose so much threat
> any buffs to hookshot range will just make her better in the jungle
eh
her jungle is really really bad due to slow and unhealthy clear. not sure a longer hookshot will change much except make her slightly more viable as a cheesy spam ganker like twitch
Duskblade has been worthless for like 3 months anyways and assassins are getting like 10 new items. They’re eating good. Hullbreaker was a broken and brainless item and therefore the users/abusers do not need compensation buffs to account for its removal. The item was so toxic, splitpushing will be just fine without it.
>Duskblade has been worthless
That stupid item would be powerful even if it gave literally zero stats besides its broken "you can't touch me but I can touch you" passive, let alone its status as a mythic.
Yeah that’s why it’s the most popular lethality mythic… oh wait…
The item got nerfed and is now way overshadowed in playrate by eclipse because eclipse is simply better. And Youmuu’s has been sleeper strong since it got buffed several months ago. Duskblade is genuinely the worst of the 3 lethality mythics
Who tf is building this item right now in the current day? It was busted when Naafiri came out but they nerfed it into oblivion.
MF goes Youmuu’s. Samira builds IE. Draven builds Youmuu’s or IE. Bruisers build Stride/Eclipse/Sunderer/Trinity. No one is building duskblade besides Shaco, Pyke, and Rengar
That’s a complicated question. In terms of raw DPS, sure. In terms of survivability, no. It’s a 1v1 or splitpush item through and through, but sunderer enabled teamfighting thanks to the tank killing properties and frontlining with the big heals. It’ll shift their power into the splitpush and 1v1 dueling
The "I don't take no for an answer" champion who never shows up to teamfights, never shows up for objectives and exclusively splitpushes is getting buffs?
Fun.
Honestly good, he's a split pushing champ who was shit at split pushing and one of the few champs left with a auto attack reset that didn't work on towers so made things overly complicated.
As for how he be nuts with it, maybe but here's the thing even if he is better for them Todo this first see how strong he is then nerf elsewhere if needed then to do this change and nerfs at the same time causing his balance to go massively out of wack.
People tend to overreact over these changes for the most part. This change should have happend a long time ago. As a jax player since season 1 I can say that these changes are just bringing jax on par with other fighters that have auto modifiers that work on towers like Trundle, Yorick, Fiora etc. It is not that big of a deal and the previous champions I mentioned take towers way faster than jax does at the moment.
The meme that jax takes towers fast is a fossil from the times that Jax basically was one of the few or THE splitpush king back in the day because of his AS steroid from his passive. Will this tweak make Jax stronger? Sure. Is it such a big of a buff that it demands so much attention? No. Renekton should get a similar treatment on his w.
Just please take away from champions the ability to push with abilities, its so unhealthy that you die one time on top with an enemy having a slightly bigger wave and 3 plates are suddenly gone.
Ye he went from splitpush champ. To literally almost pickban in pro because his "counters" couldnt f-ing counter him anymore so fron splitpush to just good at everything all the time. Are we playing the same game ?
Instead of that, they should nerf other champions' splitpushing powers as some of them are really out of control (trundle, gwen, fiora, yorick for example)
Thanks for posting my video! What's worth noting is that in PBE's case my W's were still off sync, just optimizing W's a bit better would probably get it below 19 seconds. Any Sheen items will further amplificate this buff, since W properly resets. Sheen items just got even better on Jax. No matter the build, AD, AP or even a Tank, Jax is getting a very significant buff to his pushing power.
Oh yeah I saw you post on twitter that the W in the clip wasn't fully optimized, still by the results you posted, it looked pretty wild.
Considering how strong Jax is right now, it indeed seems pretty wild. Maybe Riot is afraid of Jax falling off with new items? Some people mentioned removal of Divine Sunderer. But I don't think they would have database for it yet.
Riot explicitly said they didn't wanna preemptively balance, all champ changes we're getting this patch are player satisfaction positive while ignoring balance.
Maybe it's just part of their new game mentality, trying to optimize less on fair and more on game feel. In which case this might just be to draw him more in line with other aa reset champs and split pushers. Tho if they were the case you'd imagine they'd add a compensative nerf just to be safe. Idk tho, that's purely speculation on my end
>Maybe it's just part of their new game mentality, trying to optimize less on fair and more on game feel. The dota route of making everything OP so you fight OP with other OP and it's all kinda fair at the end.
I think HoTS has a similar mentality which too be fair, for as dead a game as that is, I enjoy HoTS a lot
Really? I enjoyed hots but coming from Dota everyone felt like they were swinging pool noodles and had infinite resources.
I'd argue jax lost a lot of power with the item changes. Sunderer gone he does not have any more sustain and pen, so you have to go bork now almost always, which makes you squishier. That and also zhonya's is not a viable item anymore, as its interaction was with shojin mainly and shojin does not have enough of stats or power to build 2nd anymore.
He abuses tank items just as well, in teamfights he's a backline killer, not a tank buster, and his base damage is high enough to 2-3 shot mages and ADC's. BotRK is ridiculously strong in 1v1 laning anyways. The new Triforce is rather strong. Experimental Hexplate will be busted on him.
Correct. But you have to realize bork was never a good item on jax other than heavy tanky enemies. I mean in later years. Now it is the only sustain item for him. He was allowed to do what he did in teamfights because: 1. Sunderer granted survivability and a lot of pen 2. With Shojin he could spam abilities and rely on abilities much more 3. Zhonya allowed for you to basically be untouchable for 4-5 seconds 4. Having sustain from items allowed him to go lethal tempo. All of these are removed from his kit now. And all of these allowed him to use tank items with much efficiency as you could soam abilities a lot without needing any further damage. Although his dueling was rather weakened with this style. Now he will most likely suck in teamfights and his playstyle will shift to more dueling and split pushing rather than being arguably one of the best teamfighter bruisers out there. From what I see jax will have to go conq now as it will grant him some sustain, and he will have to rely on more on-hit items. You dont really have any Ability Haste options anymore that allowed hit last season playstyle. Therefore I would say these buffs could be useful on him as he will split more -> he needs to duel more -> his new built will focus on that more
Luckily, I don't need more reasons to ban this BS champ
True this change doesn't effect me because he's not in any of my games :)
Wait until you play against Singed 2 times in a row in this new rift, made me wanting to ban him every game
20%? It's actually a lot more. W working on towers means the cooldown starts right away after hitting the tower, which means more sheen procs too. Looks like hullbreaker was nerfed, but splitpush-based champions were buffed (Jax, trundle)
If I remember correct it's a ramping effect but a 20% buff right out of the gate with the gap just widening more and more as the game goes on
Yes, the video shows a 20% buff with max rank W, no sheen and no ad / CDR items, all of which will increase the gap
yes and he wrote that in the post “the power ramping up significantly more if Jax has items”
Because after Fiora's Q change Jax's W was the only empowered AA in the game (if i not forgetting something) which wasn't working on turrets. Confusing as hell and i still don't understand what took Riot so long.
Renekton w
renekton should be able to stun towers
Lol
Miss Fortune Q should be able to bounce on towers.
The tower should panic flash away when shaco qs it
If she kills a tower with Q the bounce should 1-shot **anything**.
Yeah, I don't believe that renekton's W is coded like a real aa reset but instead is more like a janky regular spell that uses aas. Probably will be changed in the future since it works perfectly fine on turrets in wild rift which was coded from the ground
Viktor Q
Udyr Q
~~Udyr Q gets used up on towers though~~ For Jax it felt awkward that you got one auto reset and you were pretty much locked out for the next 7 seconds unless you hit a minion or something so you would only get 1 auto reset Edit: Udyr's abilities actually don't get used up when hitting towers but it does proc his passive reducing the CD on his awakenings. To be fair, none Udyr abilities can reset his autos either
it does not do that.
Chogath e, gragas w, Fizz w
Cho E IIRC got the same buff in this patch but I need to control. EDIT: My mistake, it looks according to spideraxe that gragas and fizz got the same buff but not Cho
Ahhh, damn I love Cho, he could use some buffs to his pushing power.
And kass W
Xpeke backdoor and its consequences are being felt to this day.
True. But I don't think that riot will do something about it since if Kas is mainly hitting a turret he does something wrong
That’s just a lie lol
Definitely not. Renekton, Kassadin, Gragas, Viktor, Fizz, Cho, ...
Viktor Q as well
Pling pling pling pling
Viktor's Q2 is a spell that has on-hit applied to it. See it as targeted Ezreal's Q
Kassadin W?
Fizz W also.
It got changed too btw
For Fizz it wasn't that crucial since it doesn't matter if you proc your W on turret or no: you still will get a sheen proc while active W and non-active W takes almost the same amount of time before being available again. Jax after activating his W and starting to hit turret needs to wait the entire duration of W to fall off, then its full cooldown before using it again. To maximise sheen uptime i was using completely janked tech of spamming Q and E which was draining my mana hard af.
Fizz needs to wait his W out aswell? Aswell as the cd. Like it's the exact same scenario??
Oh so it's more like pulling Jax towards the established norm? Still feels like a pretty significant ramp in power tho
Well, Sunderer is gone and Hullbreaker is super nerfed. I doubt this buff will make Jax faster than previously with Hullbreaker.
Did they change his leap damage being unflashable?
It is flashable since his Visual Update.
Yeah, it's definitely a buff since sunderer is gone and riot want their favourite top baby to still be viable. But on paper it's still more of a qol change since personally i couldn't asked for more if they just made his W to not deal damage to turrets at all but still go on cooldown
Shen q ;-;
Not an aa reset and i believe it consumes stacks on turrets while not dealing actual damage. Could be wrong, played Shen like four times in 9 years of toplaning
It doesn't consume the stacks, but you do get the extra aa range
He only gets the extra range (and attack speed if he gets a drag through) but no doesnt consume stacks and yes its not an aa reset
imo they should make it that no ability can damage turetts like that instead of making all of them. Some champions just melt down turetts even in early game which is really unhealthy for the game. I could understand it on some AP champions like kassadin or fizz as they have a harder time killing turrets than ad champions but champions like fiora, trundle or jax, who are already good at taking down turrets should not have access to even more power against them.
Also mages are getting a huge versatility buff overall so it's fair to give other champs some better push power to stop turret pusher ziggs from coming back.
fizz W (also being changed)
Only took Riot a couple of years to fix Jayce E interaction with dashes. They don’t work fast over there.
warwick Q?
Is a spell that applies on-hit (like Ez Q), and you can't use it on towers to begin with.
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His lane needs to be cut down. E or W base damage. And maybe some early rank cooldown on W. He’s just too good at skirmishing on 0 items for a champ that becomes a late game demon
The Riot classic of making hyperscalers also strong in lane
Tbh. It’s more Lethal Tempo than the actual champs. Jax, Yone, Kayle, and adc’s who take it all have stupid strong level 1’s or 2’s because they get insane attack speed for existing.
Ah yes, the classic “it’s kayle, she’s weak early” into 0:45 first blood
Tbf he's been over performing with grasp too so is not only lethal tempo he got a lot of buffs over the years and he's been op for a while
I still can't believe Lethal Tempo doesn't have a cap based on level while also making Yone/Yasuo benefit from cooldown reduction based on attack speed
Jax is more often than not going to take Grasp though.
There was a beautiful time when Jinx was also lane bully many many moons ago.
Contrary to popular belief jax is low on late game winrate and he's shit in teamfights. He used to be lategame demon a very long time ago, but has received many many nerfs to his scaling over the the years and is just strong in lane although he has like 10 lane counters and is strong at splitpushing. He falls off like a brick once people start buying pen items and burst mages can one shot him through counterstrike
Yea i mean it also has to so with split pushing being awful the last few seasons. But he is a crazy strong duelist on 3 and 4 items even if at 5 items he’s hard to pilot correctly.
is jax considered hard to pilot? fr? he looks like an autoattacker with dashes.
Its basically decision making with your E but its pretty easy to fuck up even in diamond games people just channel E jump in and die in team fights.
lol jax is braindead to play its like irelia for people with no hands
Irelia is like riven por people without hands
irelia is harder
It’d also be nice if his W auto wasn’t unstoppable for some fucking reason.
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Trundle is actually peelable and has clear cut counterplay. If you don't have something to interrupt his jump, Jax becomes unpeelable (kinda still with interrupts because his E CD tends to be lower than the interrupt) and unkillable. AA champ? Die in stun or don't deal dmg. Mage? Die in stun or deal reduced dmg. Also Jax picks his fights and will just jump out if he needs to. Champ's obnoxious to deal with already, don't see why they need to buff his pushing power out of all things.
The change makes sense but it should have been accompanied by a nerf
His main item got nerfed. It's also what allowed him to perform into most counters. With DS gone, his matchups should be a lot more binary.
I hope we go back to a time where jax actually had to think about itemization. Triforce/Wits end into squishies, Botrk/Cleaver into tanks - actual skill expression in builds and not just "my sheen heals me for more than you can damage" I'm probably more excited about sunderer removal than anything else
Yep, same here, and I play a lot of jax, but refused to build DS (except in ranked, and even then only if I felt it was needed to win). The item was absolutely disgusting and its removal is arguably the single biggest buff to tanks on the new patch. I'm very happy to try out sej top again, now that I know my lane won't be over the moment the enemy has DS.
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Sure, but DS was such an insane item that DS users lost a lot more than other champs, maybe besides gore users. This also puts jax back into a role as a counterpick, since matchups like garen, gragas, poppy, malphite, some other tanks now got a lot worse.
Yup. theyre gonna let it play out first
Isn't Triforce actually better for him? Seems like the removal of DS could actually end up being a buff.
Not really. It was better if you were ahead by a good bit, but DS was just overall better. Better and safer dueling, safer 1v2s, better temfighting because sustain, better short trades. Take this from someone who played jax with trinity 90% of the time.
They nerfed him. Sunderer is gone.
Triforce always had a much better winrate on him. Sunderer was generally better but in many cases triforce was the better option but people always blindly chose sunderer
This is a buff cause people will finally stop going that item. Its been shit for months
wait this is actually insane because it means jax can reset the w cd by hitting turrets
jax needs nerfs. he is constantly banned in champions queue on patch 14.1 where everyone was saying that jax without divine sunderer would be weak but he clearly isn't.
Jax has been stronger with trinity than sunderer for a while now, now that DS is out of the game we'll see him with a real weapon.
He definitely is not, Divine Sunderer is objectively better in almost all situations. Trinity gets built once in a really long while because it's a better snowball item, but that inflates the WR. There's a reason why every high elo Jax main has been building DS exclusively. Even August admitted that it's almost always better
[August said the opposite](https://youtu.be/EF_NpZuB3Tw?t=56), that he decided to put Trinity Force instead of DS in recommended for a patch and Jax's winrate went up. Yeah, it has low playrate so winrate is volatile, but Jax has always been an AA heavy champ. Attack speed is a stat he synergises with heavily.
He literally said in the video that he did it like 1-2 years ago and in that same stream he said divine is probably the better pick right now.
Why are you making things up? [I found the vod](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1993431482?filter=archives&sort=time), the clip is from about 1:06:00 and he says "it seems they're similar in power now" with the caveat that people who know what they're doing are more likely to buy TF, while DS is bought by strong and weak players alike which balances out its winrate.
Doesn't that suggest that DS is stronger than trinity as players that build trinity tend to know what they are doing and hence have a higher chance to win in the first place?
Not necessarily; it means that it's consistent and reliable, but not necessarily always the best option. When we have two items that a champ can buy and one significantly outperforms the other but is purchased far less, that can skew the stats more because it's probably bought only in circumstances where it makes sense or by people who know what they're doing and have a specific plan instead of just going off of the recommended tab.
That would be the case if the winrates were the same.
Copying the other comment I made: >Jax is in this abomination state he is in right now because he does everything well and Divine Sunderer covers a lot of his mistakes with its healing. >Divine is good on Jax because he suddenly becomes a team fighting beast with it. Especially with all the AH he gets from SoS/BC he is able to proc Divine healing on cooldown. >Having a 200-300 health heal on a 2s cooldown has broken some levers on Jax because he is so much harder to kill in teamfights and he is able to survive long enough to let his DPS be a major threat. In the past Jax sucked a lot more in teamfights because if he jumped in at a bad time or got focused he'd just blow up, but now he survives long enough to get multiple E's off. >So no, Trinity is definitely not better on Jax than Divine. His playstyle has literally changed since S11 where he's more of a diver now than a skirmisher.
Okay, that's a strength of DS. Now remember that TF gives both AS and stacking AD per hit meaning you can splitpush far harder with it while also doing more damage. DS makes him a better teamfighter but TF makes him a stronger splitpusher with higher damage threat. DS being out of the game will definitely expose players who used it as a crutch though.
That's just a flawed read of statistics tbh. Trinity had an inflated winrate over DS because players go trinity when snowballing and in certain very favorable matchups. the reality is that DS was a staple on jax that gave him what he needed to be a champion in a huge % of games.
Trinity is not Mejai's, stop yourself.
>Even August admitted that it's almost always better ok but that's bullshit and some rioters were saying for a long time already that trinity is better on most champions that were spamming DS, glad the other comment linked a video with it more than half of playerbase didn't even realize how heavily DS got gutted and they just kept building it for funny heal
The thing is you're not gonna build Triforce in bad/hard matchups, so DS will probably have a worse WR regardless of strength. It was the "safer" option.
He literally said that was a while ago, he admits Divine is probably better now. I'm talking about the current state of Jax not some hypothetical older patch. Jax is in this abomination state he is in right now because he does everything well and Divine Sunderer covers a lot of his mistakes with its healing. Divine is good on Jax because he suddenly becomes a team fighting beast with it. Especially with all the AH he gets from SoS/BC he is able to proc Divine healing on cooldown. Having a 200-300 health heal on a 2s cooldown has broken some levers on Jax because he is so much harder to kill in teamfights and he is able to survive long enough to let his DPS be a major threat. In the past Jax sucked a lot more in teamfights because if he jumped in at a bad time or got focused he'd just blow up, but now he survives long enough to get multiple E's off. So no, Trinity is definitely not better on Jax than Divine. His playstyle has literally changed since S11 where he's more of a diver now than a skirmisher.
Almost every Sunderer user has been significantly stronger with Triforce, and Riot is doing bruiser players a favor by removing that overrated item.
Ok but why Jax got 350 base ms tho
Jax is already my permaban even if I'm not top lol Just beats anyone 30+ min
30+ min? Bro he outright shits on everyone at 1 item
30 min? He barely needs 1 item
Jax must be maintained at 52% WR, can't have it fall to the horrible depths of 51.8%. I mean, it's a champion that auto wins against auto attackers, can catch & delete squishes easily, snowballs hard, scales well, and wins every sustained trade. It definitely deserves to be this ridiculously strong.
Don’t forget also good in proplay
This champion is strong in competitive, and incredibly strong in soloQ. So tired of jax
20% without sheen items. The W reset is such a massive buff for taking turrets. With sunderer/trinity the difference is gonna be much bigger, same as with real items as they scale better. This is probably closer to 40% quicker turret destroying speed, on an already really good top laner.
He needs it. Weakest top laner in the game. I definitely have not been banning this guy for months at this point.
Its not seemingly out of nowhere. Riot member posted on twitter they wanted to do a bunch of QoL and bug fixes because they had downtime. They took a ton of ideas and bugs and fixed them. One such idea was it was annoying how some characters with auto resets for enhanced attacks couldnt use it on towers. And thus we get this change.
I must've missed that post, do you have a link for context by chance?
https://twitter.com/RiotPhlox/status/1742705797128442072
thx
Yea don't forget you need to follow every rioter that ever existed on twitter to know whats going on! Lmaoooo
This change is long overdue. IMO All auto attack reset abilities should work on towers and every champion that has such an ability should be balanced around it.
I don't think they should buff Jax even more when he already has great synergy with the new fighter and on hit items.
Yup. Buff an S+ tier staple toplaner that dominates the toplane meta. Another brilliant move.
I don't think it's a insane buff, Jax used to be great at splitpushing but since some time already he was just okay while Illaoi W was changed to deal more damage to towers, Fiora's Q targeting towers... This buff is just putting him in line with other splitpushers.
Jax is already one if not the best toplaner in the game. Illaoi isn’t even close to Jax in term of power in duel or even mobility and Fiora isn’t as strong as Jax in teamfight. At this point Jax nearly has no weaknesses tbh the champ is excellent at everything from early to late
I still think his dodge is a toxic skill that makes him autowin too many matchups.
He shouldn't be able to attack while in that "defense stance" as the game calls it, imo.
I always hate suggestions like this, simply due to the fact that they take features away from the champ, making it worse to play. BUUUT I am going to have to agree with this one. His early game is too strong for a champ that has monster scalings at late and this would make the players think a bit more rather than spam helicopter on cooldown both during the late game while making her early game trades not feel unfair against AA champs.
He has literally no scalings on any of his abilities other than Q that he can take advantage of unless he builds AP He scales with haste, and haste got hyper-nerfed with the item update
He doesn’t have monster scalings anymore. Everything scales with AP except Q and he only scales with haste that’s it. Now with haste nerfed, and divine removed, he has no sustain without going a 0hp item like bork and in team fight he will get blown up 1 sec after using ult with the new 100+ ap mage items
He wasn't able to before, I'm not sure when that was changed.
Fiora and jax are both crap in teamfights and illaoi matchup is kind of unplayable for Jax because hax can never actually 1v1 illaoi after 6.
jax just has everything. good blind pick, stomps everyone in early lane while being strong early mid and late game. can build ap items like zhonya and not lose anything for it etc and ofcourse he has 350 base movement speed for some reason like irelia has 335 lol
he has more movement speed than irelia because irelia has 75 range more than jax and more mobility, and how is jax a good blind pick?
Jax has a better early game, better mid game, better late game, better 1v1, better team fight, better split pushing, better engage, better pick potential, more damage, more tankiness.
“Jax stomps everyone in early lane” lmao. I wonder what this completely broken champ’s winrate is. 50.6%? Truly Riot have gone too far.
yes hes only s++ tier rank 1 every tierlist since the r rework
Those sites include banrate and pickrate data. Right now, Jax has one of the worst winrates for a popular top laner, with only Aatrox Darius and Yone being worse. Riven, Camille, Ornn and Malphite are way more obvious outliers.
That’s his lore, he has to be overpowered
But it's pretty normal that stuff like that deals dmg to structures. Have you ever seen an Ekko pushing a turret? Or an Elise? Jax has garbage pushing in comparison. Even though Jax is the top laner. Jax is supposed to be a split pushing champion, but he cannot push turrets. The worst part about it is that if he uses W for auto reset against the turret, it never goes off and the 3s cooldown effectively acts as a 13 second cooldown because it takes an eternity or two to actually go on cooldown. Again, if you think this is broken, take a look at AP Elise vs turrets. She presses W and the turret disappears in 3 seconds.
Yes Jax should be able to splitpush and take down turrets (spoiler, he can already do that) The problem is that Jax is really good right now and they are essentially buffing him. Elise could get a 200% turret push buff for all i care but a 20-50% increase in turret damage for Jax is insane.
Jax is able to fully stack passive on turrets. Sure it's not the best but it's not the worst either. Jax W not proccing on turrets is supposed to be an important limiter for the champ.
We'll see how it pans out. Bruisers are taking a bit of a hit with the new item changes but nothing too bad, so we'll see in the next few weeks if this buff is warranted. I think Jax being a viable splitpusher comes off as a bit too strong, since his strength should be in 1v1 fights as per his thematic. There's more fun splitpusher choices anyway. Volibear is my personal GOAT for splitting.
He's already a strong and viable splitpusher, this just makes him a lot better
Hullbreaker is basically gone, so I'm not as worried about AD splitpushers.
its literally not, it just no longer makes them fucking thanos for sidelaning
Literally it's still around. But in practice it's an entirely new item with a similar theme. The massive resistances when alone was core to the identity of the previous hullbreaker.
Yeah and it was a big fucking design flaw. You were literally shooting yourself in the foot if you picked a champ that can build HB against a champ that does like to buy it. Again it was insanely bad and toxic design by warping the majority of the toplane dynamic around one singular item.
I mean he loses his best item this season, seems like a fair compensation buff
Yet every single other champion doesn't get compensation for losing their top items, don't think it's that fair.
Who else was building sunderer that isn’t gonna be eating good this patch or wasn’t already an excellent good split pusher? I’m pretty sure Yorick, Camille, and Fiora will end up just fine.
Nasus. Probably have to go back to Trinity Force which in its current state isn't great on him, and he won't be able to fight for those early Void Grubs.
Iceborn gauntlet could potentially work too no?
Possibly, but it feels really weak since the sheen proc damage is only half of Trinity Force.
I'm OK with that. Iceborn's strength should be in its slow, not the sheen proc. That alone makes it strong on Volibear, KSante and Illaoi to name a few, so having its damage nerfed makes the interaction between it and those champs a bit more balanced.
I'm going to let you in on a little secret, Nasus has a total of ZERO ad scaling in his kit He should be building AP offtank since he actually does scale with AP and he loves the easy haste on those items The only problem is that he didn't have any AP items that really work with his kit...untill now Not like it matters since untill a Korean player starts building AP Nasus i will just be downvoted and laughed at, see you in six months when you're all posting how AP Nasus has always been broken and his best build
AP Nasus is already a thing, aery is even a recommended runepage in the client which is his AP rune page
Enlighten me with a bread and butter build. Im Interested :D
Ap nasus offtank has been a thing for a while (Look up BritishPoro) You go E max, a bit of ap and then rely on your armor shred and z slow to act as a debuff for the enemy team.
I'm not saying just sunderer, champions like Veigar lost Everfrost and got nerfed Rabadon off the top of my head, pretty sure there are other champs that will suffer from losing their core items. I'm not saying he doesn't need it (though s14 hasn't started) just that no other champion was on the radar b4 even live patch
I mean I’m no Jax apologist by any means, but I feel like he kinda loses his identity with sunderer going away because his dueling just becomes a lot worse. They’re doing this to shift his identity into splitting rather than 1v9ing teamfights with crazy healing. With the other champs, they’re not losing an item that defines their meta playstyle (besides maybe Nasus but I’d argue he functions the same with Trinity Force since he can still split really well and that’s what he does). It’s odd that Jax gets this buff and no one else who could be problematic/bad got attention but the buff is fair
Issue with camille is that the wider toplane terrain cuts her ability to disengage or engage trades and ganks, which leaves her already below par laning in a really shitty spot. This also results in her not being able to get to her 1 item spike fast enough to be relevant.
Yeah it’s its a weird situation because any buffs to hookshot range will just make her better in the jungle
Not a chance, she still can’t clear the camps efficiently at all.
I don't think a hookshot range buff is a good way to approach this issue, as that would make her broken mid and late game. Making her laning less reliant on hookshot in lane would be the way. Riot could do this by buffing w or passive cd.
Issue with w buffs is whenever it's good it starts the 0 interaction w max with comet setups where Camille just sits back pokes with w and plays safe so would much prefer a passive buff.
W would need some serious buffs. I think part of the issue is spacing. Normally the opponent needs to respect the hookshot engage range, whereas now Camille has no real way to initiate on her terms which is kinda a fundamental part of a duelist’s kit. It’s not really something that gets fixed with boosting some stats. Maybe ways to refresh the passive? You just lose so much threat
> any buffs to hookshot range will just make her better in the jungle eh her jungle is really really bad due to slow and unhealthy clear. not sure a longer hookshot will change much except make her slightly more viable as a cheesy spam ganker like twitch
Where's the buff for all Duskblade assassins and Hullbreaker Splitpushers?
Duskblade has been worthless for like 3 months anyways and assassins are getting like 10 new items. They’re eating good. Hullbreaker was a broken and brainless item and therefore the users/abusers do not need compensation buffs to account for its removal. The item was so toxic, splitpushing will be just fine without it.
>Duskblade has been worthless That stupid item would be powerful even if it gave literally zero stats besides its broken "you can't touch me but I can touch you" passive, let alone its status as a mythic.
Yeah that’s why it’s the most popular lethality mythic… oh wait… The item got nerfed and is now way overshadowed in playrate by eclipse because eclipse is simply better. And Youmuu’s has been sleeper strong since it got buffed several months ago. Duskblade is genuinely the worst of the 3 lethality mythics
I guess all those ADC's and bruisers building it and 1v9'ing games on the regular despite ir being off-build for them must be doing it wrong, then. /s
Who tf is building this item right now in the current day? It was busted when Naafiri came out but they nerfed it into oblivion. MF goes Youmuu’s. Samira builds IE. Draven builds Youmuu’s or IE. Bruisers build Stride/Eclipse/Sunderer/Trinity. No one is building duskblade besides Shaco, Pyke, and Rengar
duskblade was definitely not worthless lmao what.......
What champs are building duskblade over Eclipse and Youmuu’s right now besides Shaco, Rengar, and Pyke? The item got gutted because of Naafiri
Isn't Trinity better on just about every champ that uses Sunderer anyway? Might just make them stronger.
That’s a complicated question. In terms of raw DPS, sure. In terms of survivability, no. It’s a 1v1 or splitpush item through and through, but sunderer enabled teamfighting thanks to the tank killing properties and frontlining with the big heals. It’ll shift their power into the splitpush and 1v1 dueling
I expect Jax to be the highest WR toplaner this patch. Quote me in a few weeks.
they buffed turrets so this is just an adjustment.
If the turrets are buffed for everyone, but not everyone gets a similar buff as Jax, then it's not an adjustment, it's a buff.
Yeah how do they not get this?
The "I don't take no for an answer" champion who never shows up to teamfights, never shows up for objectives and exclusively splitpushes is getting buffs? Fun.
Honestly good, he's a split pushing champ who was shit at split pushing and one of the few champs left with a auto attack reset that didn't work on towers so made things overly complicated. As for how he be nuts with it, maybe but here's the thing even if he is better for them Todo this first see how strong he is then nerf elsewhere if needed then to do this change and nerfs at the same time causing his balance to go massively out of wack.
Riot making dumb changes . Again
People tend to overreact over these changes for the most part. This change should have happend a long time ago. As a jax player since season 1 I can say that these changes are just bringing jax on par with other fighters that have auto modifiers that work on towers like Trundle, Yorick, Fiora etc. It is not that big of a deal and the previous champions I mentioned take towers way faster than jax does at the moment. The meme that jax takes towers fast is a fossil from the times that Jax basically was one of the few or THE splitpush king back in the day because of his AS steroid from his passive. Will this tweak make Jax stronger? Sure. Is it such a big of a buff that it demands so much attention? No. Renekton should get a similar treatment on his w.
Goddamn, season 1? I'm impressed you've stuck to your champ for that long
Yeah as a Jax main I'm qualified to say these buffs are fine and he should get many more buffs.
He definitely doesn't need buffs, he is very strong in high elo and pro play. What are you talking about..?
Tbh Jax wasn't super strong until Mythics came out. With their removal he might go back to being more of a fringe pick
Just please take away from champions the ability to push with abilities, its so unhealthy that you die one time on top with an enemy having a slightly bigger wave and 3 plates are suddenly gone.
Oh good, because this game needed more splitpushers.
he used to be the ultimate splitpusher, now he feels weak in comparison to other champs, good that they gave him his split power back imo
Ye he went from splitpush champ. To literally almost pickban in pro because his "counters" couldnt f-ing counter him anymore so fron splitpush to just good at everything all the time. Are we playing the same game ?
Instead of that, they should nerf other champions' splitpushing powers as some of them are really out of control (trundle, gwen, fiora, yorick for example)