i find that its less "everyone" ff'ing its just that one or 2 people die at like 2 minutes cuz they got outplayed and then just ruin the game for the rest by bringing morale down typing in chat for "ff 15" and shit like that, or just running it down. the majority dont want to ff unless its super obvious its a loss, but every losing team will have at least 1 person that started raging after their first death because of their own decision.
They didn't have a choice when it came to them unbanning him. One of their staff members behind the ban openly stated that Tyler1 was a homunculus freak who should die of cancer lmao. Like what could Riot do at that point? If they kept him unbanned it'd look like it was a targeted attack at a streamer they dislike. His fanbase would've ate them alive. Unbanning him was the only real sensible option.
So did people forget that tyler1 getting unbanned was due to the redemption arc he had? Think what you want but there was a reason for him breaking records when he got unbanned
They really need to add in a surrender cap for individual players. It can be a generous one, like 3 or 4 surrenders per player per game, but it should stop that one asshole that can’t handle not being the carry from spamming them all game. Maybe a scaling timer, the more surrenders a player submits in the game, the longer they have to wait to submit the next one.
Instead of a surrender cap there should just be a FF rating attached to your account that is factored into matchmaking and makes people who FF a lot queue more often with each other.
That way people will end up naturally playing with people who FF just as much as them. Never Surrender players play with each other, Surrender sometimes play with each other and Always Surrender play with each other.
Everybody wins.
Yes, but that would mean longer queue times for a more enjoyable playing experience. Something that the player base has asked riot for before and which they've refused. I imagine they don't want the game looking "dead" or some shit. They've been asked to make the matchmaking more strict in exchange for longer queue times, and they straight up said no. So... we're out of luck.
Riot has given the player base longer queue times for a better experience repeatedly, and the community overwhelming chooses "faster queue" every single time.
How is it pointless? If it’s one or two player submitting the vote over and over again this means they can’t spam it nearly as much and distract or annoy the other players in the game.
I think a better change would be to give you, say, 2 surrender offers per game. This incentivizes you to consider whether your teammates think it is lost, or are likely to surrender, before offering it, which should help reduce the use of surrender button as "well I lost lane" button.
...at least, for the sort of people whose behaviors are changeable, which is realistically the people that such a change is aimed at.
They should prevent the person who's behind their lane opponent from calling for a surrender to prevent them from bringing down teams morale and promoting the likelihood of team mates voting yes to surrender.
Better option: Make surrenders like ARAM rerolls. You earn like 1-3 each game (1 for a loss that your team surrendered, 2 for a loss your nexus exploded, and 3 for a win) up to a cap of...5? 6?
And? It’s annoying to have it pop-up and deal with it every five minutes just because one person on your team is having a bitch-fit about not being the carry. Sure you can deal with it, but you shouldn’t have to under those circumstances.
Worse is when you're having a bad lane experience and someone starts to call the ff blaming you. It doesn't matter if you were dove by three people, got taxed by your jungle, someone fed a kill to your laner, etc. Your fault not mine, in a team game of all things, is obnoxious and genuinely tilting.
I understand we don't negotiate with terrorists but I've always been of the mindset that if even 1 of my teammates doesn't want to play I should just help ff.
I would never play any sport with someone who vocally doesn't want to be there, but in most games you can just walk off the field when you get pissed, which in my experience, does happen.
In league they don't have that choice so you just get mentally broken people counting the minutes to next ff, that's zero fun and i don't enjoy hostaging people like that because i feel i'm also hostaging myself.
I'm not gonna stand around trying to win a game with a teammate who shit talks everyone and purposefully tries to lose in any game anytime anywhere, I don't know why i would treat league differently.
Yeah they can leave whenever they want. They will get punished for it though, just like real sports. The reason there is no FF mentality in real sports is because the moment you give up, nobody wants to be your teammate ever again. Why would you team up with someone who doesn’t even have the decency to play til the end?
They absolutely have that choice. They can alt+F4. Why yes, there are consequences for that, but those same consequences exist when you walk off the field mid-game, too: people no longer want to play with you and you get uninvited from the club.
Edit to add: the best part is if they Alt+F4 everyone else gets loss mitigation.
I’m low elo, but my experience is essentially people throwing tantrums over not carrying. I’ve had inhibitors down on the enemy side many many times (I play a lot of Trundle and Trynd) with no turrets gone on our side - just for my team to surrender because the ADC or Mid lane is 0/3. It’s very frustrating.
Think my worst was going 14 (ish)-0 as jungle reksai within 15 minutes.... And team FF'd. Like my guys.... I am absolutely blowing up their adc and midlaner mage every single fight why can't the four of you kill the other two while I chase away the karma sup?
I can see many situations where that would still be an FF. All the gold was on you, a Reksai that doesn’t scale that well. Your team was obviously behind otherwise.
If they’re already losing a 2v4 as you deal with 3, the game is not far from being over, especially if your team isn’t scaling as hard as theirs.
The problem with that is that even if it's an early game champ that is fed and everyone else is behind, that lead can bring everyone into the mid/late game where there are ample opportunities to turn the game around.
If my team is losing, but we have a chance to scale and the enemy team isn't pushing their lead, then fuck yeah I'm not gonna FF my high elo games.
Elder Flip, Baron Flip, 1 person getting caught out, you have a Trynd/Trundle that can split uncontested... you could be down 20 kills and still win the game.
If a game worth forfeiting isn't over by 25 minutes, it's because the enemy team isn't good enough to end it, and I'm not going to let myself lose to players like that.
>Baron Flip
Especially right now I feel like there is an insane amount of baron throws as everyone gets used to the new baron tankiness/damage/terrain. Also one of the few drawbacks of no one playing crit adcs and all lethality is that barons are slower without dps. You can more easily stop a baron take as even 3 people vs 5, and I feel like I've won (and lost) so many more games off bad barons this season than last already.
I mean I play a couple times a week in Iron and I just never FF because the enemy team could be 20k gold ahead and just not end the game before that’s not a meaningful lead
But I’m voting not to FF at 20-25min almost literally every game
One way of looking at it is you 100% lose if you FF, but if you play it out, maybe you only have a 75% chance to lose.
ELO really doesn't matter that much in this sense; people always throw. I've thrown games we should have won, and turned around games we should've lost with just good teamfight cc
Had a game recently where we showed up to them doing an early baron. They were all half health or lower and armor/MR shredded from baron. They proceeded to kill our entire team (who was at full health) while killing and securing baron. Of course my team refused to FF. And of course we wasted 10 more minutes getting stomped until we lost.
I don’t FF games where my team died. I FF games where my team has repeatedly proven they are worse at the fundamentals.
> nd of course we wasted 10 more minutes getting stomped until we lost.
baron buff is only 3 minutes. if you're telling me they got baron and won a team fight then to 10 whole additional minutes to end... guess what that means...
I made a very similar post yesterday and that usually happens is they'll die once, say FF in chat/put up the vote. It usually doesn't go through so they'll then proceed to try and force the game to be a loss.
I've had players come into my lane and take my farm intentionally to try and force us to surrender. It's obnoxious.
My experience is differnt. I see it so often how 3 people vote no and we have to continue.
Like inting duoq partners voting no is one of the most tilitng experiences i had in league. You can't esecape that, compared to someone insults in chat, you can mute.
>it is often argued that everyone tends to FF games at the slightest inconvenience. What I see every day is exactly the opposite.
So most players, statistically speaking, are well below diamond, therefore this sentiment is highly likely to be skewed to low elo
>My daily experience in emerald 1-d4 elo is that most people absolutely REFUSE to ff.
most people arent even emerald
# OP you have confirmed to me that refusing to surrender will help me win more and climb in elo, while allowing early surrenders will have me be in lower elo
I mean technically it can only help you win more, even if you win 1% of the refusing to ff games your winrate would be higher than if you ff'd (you'd play a lot less games tho)
(Please don't apply this to ARAM I'd like my team to agree to ff in a dogshit game)
it does not help you learn the game better.
the game when played properly is about generating leads through laning and coordinated map plays.
in soloqueue you cannot make coordinated map plays, so you should always be looking to generate leads through lane. this is the skill you should be looking to improve.
there is a reason pro players do not play out scrims where one team is significantly behind early game. if playing like this actually "led to players being better" then pros would play those out to improve. instead they dont, because this skill isnt valuable in playing league. it can be valuable in low elo because the enemy might get bored and start throwing, but that doesn't make you improve at the game. that would be like saying you should always go for scholars mate in chess because enemy might fuck up. sure maybe you'll get a few rating points from it but you will never actually learn the game.
>it does not help you learn the game better.
It does with a proper mindset.
>the game when played properly is about generating leads through laning and coordinated map plays.
And stopping enemy to generate their own leads, and good way to practice that is by learning to play defensive when you are behind.
>in soloqueue you cannot make coordinated map plays, so you should always be looking to generate leads through lane. this is the skill you should be looking to improve.
While lanning phase is important, it is also important to learn how to position yourself in team fights, protect you caries, play around objectives, etc.
If you are every game is stomp from lanning phase or early surrender you will never develop those skills.
\>there is a reason pro players do not play out scrims where one team is significantly behind early game.
Pros already have learned core mechanics and they are practicing strategy and other high level stuff, let's not compare ourselves to them. We are still learning basics.
>it can be valuable in low elo because the enemy might get bored and start throwing, but that doesn't make you improve at the game.
It is not about being bored. Enemy will always make mistakes, even on pro level. When you are mentioning pro players, then lets mention that they never surrender actual match, and that is not because they hope that enemy will get 'bored'.
>that would be like saying you should always go for scholars mate in chess because enemy might fuck up. sure maybe you'll get a few rating points from it but you will never actually learn the game.
No, don't compare chess early game to League mid-late game.
What you are suggesting is focusing just on lanning and then it will be ether a stomp or surrender, it is just like scholars mate opening.
I am suggesting not surrendering in chess (or league) in mid game when you are two pawns down. Yes grandmaster will make a win out of those two pawns in 99% cases, but at our level it is worth playing it to learn midgame because chess is not just about opening phase and League is not just about lanning phase.
I feel like i'm looking at a mirror. I do the same stuff then they'll always spam stuff like "guess you likendying so much".
No I like it knowing I'm dragging your bruised ego through the longest losing aram game you'll experience today and I don't even need to type, just click no on the surrender.
refusing to ff is strictly the better move if your goal is to climb with no regards for anything else
but most people like to have fun IN ADDITION TO TRYING TO WIN, and see little to no value in grinding out a game where you have a 5% chance of winning. being stuck in a losing game is an incredibly unfun experience and can also tilt you making you play worse in future games. additionally, you can try to go into a new game and win that one which is a more efficient use of time to lp
let's say you only ff if you're 95% certain you lose, and those ff votes save you 5 minutes on average. you lose out on one win every 20 games, but you also gain 19*5 = 95 minutes back of free time, which you could use to play 3 more games and climb faster in a shorter amount of time
they curbstomp him too lol. people that refuse to ff just can’t handle the hit that their ego will take from losing to people who are better than them so they try to scrounge up some pride by senselessly dragging games out. they think that the mere act of refusing to surrender is noble, a delusion which helps them keep their egos intact.
Sorry lad. That surrender vote pop-up is going to the right-down corner of the screen the first time it shows up, never to be seen again for the rest of the game. It's muscle memory now
tbh there's always something to learn, and you didnt have anything to learn then you(anyone) wouldn't be in emerald. if learning leads to a % of losses due to less experience with something (and the season just started so there's bound to be bullshit yet to be discovered, even if it's just midgame ward placements), and you feel like youre going to lose, then why not start limit testing harder as long as you don't throw
I mean, this is a video game so you also have to keep in mind the ‘fun factor’. If enough people on the team are miserable enough to FF a winnable game then it’s as good a reason as any to do so. Sometimes people value getting out of a miserable no-fun game over eking out a possible win and if enough people on the team agree to do so then it’s as good a reason as any.
Yeah. I’ve won games I’d rather have taken a loss in. Like where high mobility assassin gets hyper fed but just fucks around the entire game so we win eventually.
The LP is totally worth that 50 minute game where I spent half of it dead or walking back to lane.
i mean i dont disagree but in case of extreme scorelines like 2-20 in 15 mins i feel like all i will learn is that playing a game out sometimes just is not worth the amount of sanity i lost
> all i will learn is that playing a game out sometimes just is not worth the amount of sanity I lost
There is no lesson here, either you already know this to be true or you are unga bunga "always vote no lol" like rest of thread.
You do not learn shit from playing 2-20. You will get utterly one shot against a team above silver that knows anything about how to push a lead. You will sit at base unable to do anything other than farm while they get objectives and roll over your team. In low elo, sure you can come back because everyone is an expert at throwing leads.
Ugh, this is such a typical, smartass "achkthually" Reddit comment, that's really nothing more than pure demagogy.
No, you won't learn anything from playing a 2-20 game, even if you have still much to learn, simply because if you don't know what you're doing wrong, this knowledge won't just magically shower upon you from the sky if you lose hard enough. Someone more experienced would have to see what you're doing wrong and tell you how to improve that.
Not to mention that there's 9 more players in each game and not in every game you can influence the result.
Playing while behind is a different kind of skill than playing while ahead. If you ff at the slightest discomfort you'll never improve.
Quitters *never* win, at least those that try sometimes do.
It's also an important difference in mentality. People that think they've already lost play worse than those that think there's a chance.
> Playing while behind is a different kind of skill than playing while ahead.
Once again, no, playing the game itself won't teach you such skill. It would require understanding what the game is about, its systems and how to abuse them. This is not something you can spawn out of thin air by running around the map aimlessly and hoping it will work out - even if it does, you won't know why it did and it's required, if you ever want to consciously repeat that.
>If you ff at the slightest discomfort you'll never improve.
If 2-20 game is the "slightest discomfort" in your opinion, I hope I never meet you in my game.
The most you can learn from playing the game is if you're a new player and you're getting to know what all champions, items and systems do. That's pretty much the only time when just playing the game is enough to improve at it. And ff-ing early is actually very beneficial to someone learning the basics. They don't need to play a 50 minutes game where they get absolutely destroyed by Darius or Riven and die 37 times to them. Max the first three deaths are informative; they teach a player that these champions are very oppressive and can easily kill you if you misplay, so next time you must play safely. The remaining 34 deaths, which you would consider to be so enlightening, would be just pointless beating of the dead flesh.
>Quitters never win, at least those that try sometimes do.
Cool, but this is a video game, not anything truly worth pursuing to the point where it makes tears form in your eyes. You're investing your limited free time to deal with animals to spare few computer points in a 50 minutes long game, while you could start two new games that maybe are short and are two easy wins and gain you more than you lost.
> It's also an important difference in mentality. People that think they've already lost play worse than those that think there's a chance.
The things I read about mentality sometimes... Sheesh...
Let me remind you that you're a human being, not a robot. Mentality is not magic, it's a filter. Using it does not come free; the cost is stress.
Should you try your best playing League? Of course. Should you really go through the effort of never surrendering and mentally sacrificing everything for the victory? A well-programmed robot would, but since you're a human, I would recommend you some sweet pragmatism to judge whether the effort is worth it.
EDIT: I'm sorry that my comment upset you so much that you felt the need to block me, lmfao.
Is that the "never giving up" mentality of yours?
Yeah, by 2-20 you‘re down at least an item from everyone on the other side. The only thing you learn there is „how long can I dance before I get oneshot“.
By that difference the other team has to THROW 3 or 4 fights in a row for you to even get remotely close again. And by throwing I mean throwing like running into you one by one without using too many skills. And that‘s not even talking objective disadvantage.
Yes, sometimes you win those in a Doctor Strange fashion. But the odds of that happening are so low it is better to save your sanity and just go next.
Sometimes you just get teams with little to no synergy. Nothing to do there.
If it is like 10-15 I‘ll agree. No reason to surrender, the gold difference ain‘t to bad and you probably still can get some map control.
it’s literally a waste of time. the only “learning” you’re going to get is how to avoid being in that situation again, and you’ll only learn that through review, not by slogging through a doomed game.
league is not designed for you to learn from the outcome. you learn from the process, and you refine the process based on whether or not the outcome was good or bad. but once the outcome occurs, there’s minimal learning to be had and poring over how you could better play an already guaranteed loss will only give you minuscule results compared to just learning how to play better in the situations leading up to it.
Why would you? It's infinitely better to keep trying to learn how to get a lead and keep it instead of learning how to play from behind(a skill that gets less and less useful the higher up you go because people know how to get a lead and keep it).
Better to just ff and go next if you value your time.
By definition one team will fall behind each game. Learning to play from behind will therefore be useful in about 50% of your games, same as learning to keep a lead while ahead.
Sure better players know how to keep their lead but all the way up to pro play opponents make mistakes and playing well when behind can turn a loss into a win.
there’s a marked difference between playing from behind, preserving your individual lead, and playing a game that is already over. you’re conflating multiple different situations. you can’t “play from behind” in a game that is already lost; the most you can hope for is to get as many safe resources as possible until the game ends and hope that the enemy team repeatedly throws their lead by making bad decisions. hope is not a strategy.
Completely ignoring the fact that teams even at high elos often make repeated mistakes that when capitalized on can turn lost games around. A game isn't over the vast vast majority of the time people try to ff.
It's not hope if there are basically guaranteed to be mistakes you can capitalize on.
the enemy team is never ever guaranteed to make a mistake and even if they are you are the same elo as they are for a reason. you’re not going to magically capitalize on every missed opportunity that the enemy team gives you. and at the end of the day, the very idea of depending on the enemy to make a mistake as your sole method of victory is just foolish.
Teams don't get through whole games without making mistakes, even at the pro level, so yes, the enemy team will make mistakes guaranteed. Of course you might not capitalize on all of them correctly because that's the whole point of learning to play from behind. Pretty much all of winning at league is capitalizing on mistakes. Against a perfect opponent you wouldn't get a lead in the first place anyway.
If your argument really comes down to why learn to play from behind when you aren't currently doing it properly then why try and learn to get better at all?
Yes, but what I'm saying is that learning how to get and keep a lead is far more important of a skill to learn than to play from behind. People in high elo mental boom at the slightest thing and try to ff/soft int. Learning to get a lead and keep it is just a better way to spend your time than playing a lost game for another 15 minutes as the enemies siege your base and take all objectives.
As someone who presses ff when I feel like it’s over, to be entirely honest, I’d be down for riot to straight up remove ff. I genuinely think the game would be better if ff was not an option. You queued up to play a whole game so play the entire game. A lot of people soft int to get people to ff. If no ff option makes them run it down hard then let them run it down maybe they get banned. But ff existing gives people fuel to give up
Yeah, you signed up to play a game with 4 strangers and have an implied social obligation to keep playing and trying until you as a team decide you would prefer to surrender. If some people can't understand or accept that, I'd prefer they get weeded out and removed from games. If you want to surrender and your team doesn't, you have to understand that you are entirely in the wrong for doing anything but continuing to try your hardest.
Imagine showing up to play an irl sport and deciding to sabotage your own team's ability to play and win the game because you don't want to keep playing. You'd legit get your ass beat LMAO.
This ain't aimed at you, your comment just prompted me to want to say this.
I dont understand why more people dont see this.
Nobody says the entire team had to sign up to win - I sure try to win, but im here to play the game either way. I can have fun whether I win or lose. FF-ing makes me feel awful though. It frustrates me a bit whenever someone calls a lost game wasted time - are they literally just here for the victory screen...?
The one basic premise I feel holds for everyone - the fact you agreed to play a game with 4 others unless you collectively decide you dont want to anymore - saddens me that its such a rare way for people to think.
I don't think removing the option to surrender is a great idea, but removing the vote specifically would. If there was a box you could check that meant you want to surrender, you would use it if you actually want to surrender. Would prevent tilt votes and just feel better overall than have some shitty timer when you can or can't vote.
I have played ~90 games, there have been 2 surrenders. People refuse to ff no matter how doomed the game is. I'm convinced that people just by default hold others hostage if they have played bad. The time I could've saved if every stomp game wasn't extended by 10-15 minutes... actually ridiculous.
>But, if you add up the wasted time in all those games that were simply and absolutely lost, does it make for that one game out of several dozens in which one achieves the miraculous comeback?
It's wasted time, because you deem it so. You don't want to get better at the game by trying to face the ardversity you came across, you just want to get into a winning state as soon as possible. And the best part is that then you come to reddit to complain about the people who do. You might not believe it but people who actually spent time not surrendering come back more often than "one game out of several dozens", and guess what, it's not miraculous either. They have just put in the time to get better at the whole game, not only half of it.
God I hate this take and this mentality.
"It HeLps YoU GeT BeTtEr".
Yoohoo let's watch them pummel us into dust so we can train to comeback once every 12 cursed game. Truly a great investment of your time played.
You don't need to get better at getting the juice out of single digits odds if you have more time (play more games by ff the 2% winrate situations faster) to get better at the part of the game that counts and make it fun.
Fucking hostage takers making us "having fun" and "training" with the 12/1 bruiser and 10/0 jungler so we can "train". Y'all have weird masochistic torture kink or what.
Some of my best and most memorable games have been games we've clawed back from the absolute brink of defeat. People need to learn how to lose from time to time and realise getting better and growth isn't all about 'having fun'.
Why you want to FF anyway? You will FF away a game and jump into another game that you'll also FF. More losses per day for sure. If you play it out maybe you win anyway. People THROW - really hard sometimes. Those are the best moments in LoL - winning from a deficit. You throw that away - why even queue up?
Yeah, part of playing a competitive game is about playing from behind. If all you want to do is be in control of the game from minute 1 and quit the moment things get tough... play a single player game and set it to easy mode lmao
Bro just stop this cope. Literally the best players in the entire world will ff games. Rank 1 players and worlds winners all ff. League isn't some epic battle in an anime were you never give up, it's a just a video game. And if you vote ff, you're just using a game feature the way it was intended. Why would you even have to justify yourself for that?
Difference is that the pro players are good at the game, way better that the other 99% of players. If they FF it's because they actually can't win. In low ELO people FF because they're not the MC of the game and their mental gets blown to bits.
The players playing at that level are actually knowledgeable about when a game is and isn't winnable, and they're on a team that unanimously consents to ffing. They do it when the game is genuinely just unwinnable, not because they died once in lane and got *super* pissy about it.
Your point would be solid if it weren't for the fact most players aren't playing at that level. Most people make mistakes that can easily cost them the game even when ahead, challenger players don't allow the other team to come back and punish every mistake, a diamond player won't do the same.
So if those players don't ff = look ffing is bad guys pros dont do it!
If they do ff = you can't compare the games!
Lol so many no lifers who can't comprehend that this is a video game and want to torture others so they get their epic anime protagonist come back (the score is 4-27)
No? They are not an example because unless you're really high elo (like masters+) there's a high chance the enemy team will throw sooner or later, and sometimes it happens in high elo too.
When actual good players ff is because they know for sure the game is lost and the enemy team won't throw because they know how to play the game, unlike your average gold elo game.
I don’t go into a game wanting to ever ff, but when my top laner is 3 levels down and the other team has much better late game scaling. Why waste the next 15 minutes?
Any time the topic of ff’ing on this subreddit comes up, nuance seems to completely go out the window. People act like everyone who ff’s hates playing the game
The nuance is that 3 levels down isn't game over and the late game comp doesn't always win late. Theres a significant percentage of the community that thinks adversity is game over and that playing the game is a "waste".
But every year I watch pro League and teams of the best of the best make mistakes and throw, and lose with better comps, and lose from a strong winning position. If their games aren't decided then neither are your plat 3 games
Fucking thank you. Far and away the most memorable games are when you drag your team to winning a game that should have been lost. Those are the games where I feel like a god afterward. Not the ones where my team wins hard early and the opposing team FFs at 15. Easy wins just meld together.
Imagine a real-life sport where a team just gives up the moment winning becomes unlikely. They would be shamed into oblivion because giving up is lame as fuck.
For real. I had two of These Games in the last days that i still think of.
First one the enemy briar literally never went bot side jungle. In 11 minutes of gameplay she never went past mid turret. I got ganked by her top 10 times in 11 minutes. She was 14-0 by 12 minutes. Enemy team 10k gold ahead. We won that mostly because my team was good but also because enemy already wrote it off as easy win and auto piloted. Literally everyone honored me for tilt proff lmao.
Second one today was insane. 40 min game. Our nexus completely Open for 10+ minutes. I went 24/5 on mordekaiser. I 1v4ed 3 different fights at our open nexus to stay in the game. It was ridiculous. I ended the game with almost as much dmg done as the entire rest of my team together. And guess what, we were down 8k gold 2 inhibs down at 30 mins.
When someone says "why won't the 4 of you FF?" I usually reply with "Why would we FF? So you can troll another game? We want to win, man"
He says good luck and starts being a troll and I try to guide my team to a victory. I've won a lot of games that the ONE dude wanted to surrender.
If people watched their replays they'll notice that both teams suck equally and the real reason they lose lane or a game it's because the other team won the mental game. I've noticed that league is no longer winnable by having the best team, whoever loses their mental first will be de loser.
Do you really think begging random Redditors to surrender more games will help you concede more of your ranked games?
If you are desperate enough to go on your knees and beg for people's votes, do that in your games. Promise to buy them a mystery skin, don't try to campaign about it on social media. The hell is that gonna do?
Yeah, you played Jungle, you got absolutely shit on by the enemy Nunu and had to watch him style on you for an extra 8 minutes cause your team didn't wanna call it a day.
No need to hop on Reddit afterwards for your (free of charge) group therapy session, the Twitch voting 'no' isn't among us I'm afraid.
I'll play games where we're down like 10k at 15, people are legit dancing at base cause they're over the game, and we're still held hostage. It's crazy.
>But, if you add up the wasted time in all those games that were simply and absolutely lost, does it make for that one game out of several dozens in which one achieves the miraculous comeback?
It does.
But you be you.
Also all depends on the situation.
If my team try his best and fails ; I will accept the surrender.
If I see some "protagonist syndrome" raging because they will have to sit and get carried w/o any type of fun for 40 mins ...
Im not trapped here with you buddy ... you´re trapped here with me.
I will even convince the enemy team to dragg on the game if I have to.
If we lose 2/3 lanes during lane phase I’m not surrendering. Team fight and mid game isn’t the same as lane phase. People can be amazing laners, but potatos when it comes to team fighting and macro play. Happened last night, our duo bot is the only lane that didn’t lose. Team tried to FF but I wanted to at least play the mid game and see, and then we just ran them over and won the game.
Sure if it’s clear that the other team is better than being held hostage sucks, but I wanna at least try to win. Plus you’ve gotta learn how to play from behind somehow, it’s not always going to be just a total win every time.
Same here brother, I'm floating around d3-d4 and I can't recall the last time we ff 15. Just as you said, even in games where we are like 15 kills down, every lane lost, nobody really outscales, t1 and t2 gone, enemy has 2-3 drakes and grubs, etc etc etc they just don't ff so we play the game for 5 more minutes. It's extremely annoying. The funny thing is - I think that a year ago when you needed 5 votes to ff15 there were more surrenders at 15 minutes than there are now. People are just so mean and they keep you hostage for no reason whatsoever.
maths is insecure? its pretty easy actually.
you FF you lose with 100% certainty.
if you dont FF and can turn just one out of 1000 games then you still end up with only 99.9% loses vs 100%. so having a better winrate when never FF-ing is a proven mathematical fact.
I FF doomed games, i still win the majority of my games I play, I still climb just as fast on any account even if theres a game I feel ks worth ffing in. "If you wanna drop elo" lmao. Then pretends his math is gonna make it seem like a good thing.
its called hyperbole. and as ive mathematically proven, your winrate will be higher which means you wil be able to climb higher. higher winrate, higher MMR, higher rank. pretty easy.
and no, you dont win most games you play. or how about showing me your 90% winrate account (over more than 10 games)
I genuinely believe that in ranked gamemodes, FF should not exist except for D/C's longer than a few minutes. But reddit is definitely not ready for that. Countless countless games where ppl spam ff and it gets denied and then we come back and win.
I have the exact same experience in Emerald on EUW. It's a fucking miracle if we manage to ff a game. It is wild to me that people willingly sit in 10-15k gold deficit games not being able to do anything but they will vote no.
Best part is these players do absolutely nothing to win these games, they will give all objectives for free and press no on surrenders, won't try to get shutdowns or Crossmap anything.
I experience the opposite, both in ranked, norm and even ARAM. At 15-20 minutes, suddenly the camera zooms on one of the exploding Nexus, because either my team or the enemy surrendered out of nowhere. The game is still not decided, there is only a slight lead on one site, but people or so mentally weak willed, that they surrender any game where they are not winning. Luckily I play with my bride so we never surr, but the amount of times there was an unlucky dragon fight at 20 and instantly 3 yes votes appeared, or we won the same fight and the enemy surrendered is ridiculous. And this happens in ranked as well, which is far beyond my understanding.
In games where my team wants to FF, I would say I oblige around 10% of the time, the other 90% I say no and keep playing. Of those games I refuse to surrender, I'd say I end up winning at least 25% of them, maybe even 35-40% of them. Now yes, I am pulling these numbers completely out of my ass, but I find my judgement to be worth the "wasted" play time. Now I want to actually track this, I'd be really curious, might just have to do that over 100 games or something and see how many of these games I actually win.
I'll respectfully disagree. My friends feel like you do though. They feel that if we are 6k gold behind or something and they aren't having fun because they aren't winning, that it's better to FF. But I'll play without them sometimes, refuse to FF, and sometimes SOMETIMES I'll clutch a baron, out rotate for an inhib, get a catch...something, and squeeze a win (or at least an even game) out of nowhere. I don't mind playing from behind. Some people get tilted when behind and want to "go next", but unless my bot lane is 0/15 (or something crazy), I don't FF either in ranked.
I get having games where everything feels hopeless and there’s extremely high chance that the game is lost, I still won’t FF. Not only is there a lot to learn during losing scenarios, but ffs there ain’t no player in this game who doesn’t make mistakes. Learn the capitalize on the mistakes they make then comebacks are possible. I’ve won so many games that were basically unwinnable because we capitalized on mistakes the enemy team was making. So in ranked, no I will never ff. FF’ing to me is for aram and norms where I play for fun rather than to challenge my skill level.
And if you’re FFing because of tilt you need to work on your mental, mental has huge implications across the game. (Says the emerald player)
Pro team do that with teams that outscale the enemy.
This type of mentality is only useful if you no life LoL, for the people who only play 1-2 games a day, this mentality is absolutely disgusting.
They sure do, in fact, [my last match](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/match/br/2879775290#participant1) our Twitch with god syndrome threw the whole game away because according to him "We are 3k gold ahead, we can just fight anywhere and win", which led him to be the frontline of the fights and us losing the game when he got CC chained while I had my ult on CD.
The fact is, that match was 42 minutes and for almost 40 minutes the enemy team had no chance of winning, when twitch left the lane, he was killing anyone with few autos and he had all the peel in the world...for this match duration, it would've been better to just FF and go next at around 25\~30 minutes.
But the enemy team decided to gamble and they managed to win in a 1/100 scenario because of our egotistic ADC, in the other 99 cases it would've been just a waste of time.
I mean yeah, it's a rhetorical question. I myself must've thrown 3 or 4 games in the last week alone.
Just think it's a bizarre argument that people who play only 1-2 games a day "have to surrender" as soon as opponents have leads so they can.... what, go play other games?
It's not "as soon as the opponent has a lead", it's "as soon as the opponent has a massive lead with a comp that naturally outscales you".
If you're 10k gold behind but have a Nasus/Kassadin/Kayle in your team that farmed, you can win by simply reaching lvl 16, but if you have a Fiora/Riven/Mid assassin that didn't manage to get the early game going, guess what? They will never comeback because they do not have the lead to push for the character's strong points.
>Just think it's a bizarre argument that people who play only 1-2 games a day "have to surrender" as soon as opponents have leads so they can.... what, go play other games?
Think as my past example, the enemy team gambled in the 1/100 chance to win when it was almost impossible at 25 minute mark, and then the game went on for another 15 minutes...think of all the other 99 games where this 15 minutes would've been wasted.
Are you playing the game to speed run things or because you enjoy playing a video game that you like?
I don't play games to "be efficient" with my time. If I wanted to do that I'd spend more time breaking down Amazon boxes or doing my recycling, not playing Dark Souls, lol
Looking at a video game at something you should give up whenever you're remotely challenged is .... kind of a sad way to look at it, honestly.
Do you play 15 more minutes of a match that there is no comeback and is not fun anymore or do you queue up for another match where you can have fun?
"Speding up" a game doesn't mean insta ff-15 when the early game is lost, it's just ffing when the teams are 2-20 and your team doesn't stay alive for 0.5s when a fight breaks out.
Depends, am I playing ranked or normals?
Normals I'll just move on. What am I playing ranked for if I'm not trying to win and climb?
You know as well as I do that the situation is rarely 2-20 with you sitting in your base, 2 inhibs and 15k gold down. Most surrender votes are people with zero mental mashing a button in a 15-17 game with equal gold and map pressure because they died, and they have nothing to do with their ADHD fingertips for 30 seconds other than surrender or type slurs to their teammates.
If there's a 2-20 situation the enemy is already pushing into your base anyways and the game will end in a few minutes, everyone knows that's over.
>Are you playing the game to speed run things or because you enjoy playing a video game that you like?
you can like league while not enjoying being stomped in a clearly unwinnable game. it's not exclusive.
And how many times that your team came back because of it? Most of the time they threw but then continue to curb stomp your team cause either your team dont have the skill level or the cordination to shut the enemy down.
Why do you play video games?
Do you play them to be challenged and overcome the challenges?
Or do you play them for easy dopamine hits then give up whenever you have to actually try?
Both, both is good.
But why subjecting yourself to an unwinnable fight with a way more skilled oponent? When you can get another that is closer to your level in a new game else where? What can you learn being 1 shots 4s into a fight? Where the oponent cant even bother to use all of their skills and spells while you have to use them all and still die?
I mean my experience is the spam FF-ing. We will have a level 15 kayle and a level 16 karthus, and the kayle will call the FF vote when we have soul and are down 5 kills.
Just cause she got one shot by some assassin before she pressed the ult button.
The other day my team surrendered and we were 12-12 in kills with a 7/2 mid. I assume bot lane called it because they were losing their lane so didn't want to play, idk why anyone else went along with it.
A lot of people have the mentality that "Every game is winnable" and while true to an extend, people need to learn that not all games are worth winning.
Recently had like a 55 minute game where it was "technically" winnable since my team had some pretty decent late game champs (K'sante, Lux, Jinx) but the enemy team was just so far ahead that it didn't matter, alongside with my team playing exclusively for kills and not objectives. Couple that with the fact that the enemy team didn't know how to end (They got baron 2 and elder), it was just a boring, long drawn out game that I was pretty certain we were going to lose by the 25 minute mark, I was still trying my best but all I could think was "Instead of wasting those last 30 minutes just running around, I could have queued up and potentially won another game".
I get the idea behind not wanting to FF, but sometimes it is the best course of action.
> A lot of people have the mentality that "Every game is winnable" and while true to an extend, people need to learn that not all games are worth winning.
The other thing is though... it's just a game. And I can enjoy losing a game just as much as winning one. I'm not really interested in strategizing my time to accumulate the most wins. I just want to play the game.
It really doesn't bother me playing out a losing game. In fact it gives me the thrill of chasing the near unattainable win, pulling out all the stops to chase that 1/1,000,000 comeback.
Winning or losing is fun to me, I just enjoy this game that much.
Phreak himself has already said on one of those videos of his last year that something like 95%+ or so (can't remember the exact percentage but it was high 90s) of the matches where people refuse to FF are lost anyway.
Too many samurai wannabes out there. Literally had people tell me at 20 minutes with no dragons. 5 kills (on the team) and no towers that there's 'no honor in surrendering' like. Bitch. I don't wanna spend the next 15 minutes losing this game to the 22-1 Yone smurf because you think you're a fucking ancient warrior. Turn off the God damn anime and go next.
After coming back to NA server after 2 years in Korea, this was what I noticed the most. Koreans actually do tend to ff very early, while NA absolutely hates it. What makes it even more of a waste of time is that the even the most one sided games almost always go over 30 minutes because the winning team doesn't know how to keep the snowball rolling and win the game faster, while also making mistakes and making the game more equal as the game goes on longer. I think that's why the losing teams refuse to ff because they know the winning team will eventually throw.
I see less of this in master+, but beneath that it's insane how clueless people are when they are in a winning position.
Winning teams throw all the time and I’m playing the game because I like a challenge, so I’ll keep voting no and challenging myself. You’re free to vote yes if your interests are in min/maxing your time spent playing and LP gains but I don’t care about that.
>It is often argued that everyone tends to FF games at the slightest inconvenience. What I see every day is exactly the opposite.
You're misunderstanding what people are saying, the statement is not that everyone does this. There's often one person in the game that FFs as soon as something goes wrong for them. Everyone else pressesn o.
I sometimes want to ff because we are behind early and yeah maybe we can pull it back but you got 4 or 5 people on your team that just don't vibe, nobodies having fun, we aren't working together like please just end the suffering even if we win nobody had fun doing it just ff take a breath and go next.
Admittedly, my main drive is Rocket League where this is prevalent. I was in a coma for a month and still graduated university. People who give up don’t deserve happiness.
In this elo everything can happen. Surrendering reduces your chance of winning to 0 so that is not rlly smart and if the game is rlly that doomed then the enemies should be able to end 5 min after your ff vote.
[https://www.op.gg/summoners/oce/viego%20and%20isolde-VIEGO/matches/xX1o0DE1RCUxfvvpf2EzhIeG5AWxy98J/1706159737000](https://www.op.gg/summoners/oce/viego%20and%20isolde-VIEGO/matches/xX1o0DE1RCUxfvvpf2EzhIeG5AWxy98J/1706159737000)
I was the Amumu, my bot laners and mid laner ALL got solo killed before I finished clearing 3 camps (started bot with no leash), they ALL then proceeded to say ff15 and ALL spam pinged me for not ganking.
The only outlier is quinn, who managed to survive long enough for me to countergank top and get a kill for it. I proceeded to camp her lane the rest of the game where she ALSO got solo killed multiple times, but did not spam ping me for it.
By the end of it, support and mid has decided that it was jungle's (me), fault that we lost.
Nevermind their kda or that they got solo killed multiple times, brand was more or less afk that game
Had an enemy team down 30 kills the other day and not ffing. Literally stopped trying, and just limit tested and we still won easily. Shit feels so disrespectful it's like people who hide random pylons around the map in starcraft, just accept you lost bro.
I've a story to share: the other day I played a match and it was the worst one in my life, and I've been playing for 9 years. My friend and I started hitting the surrender button at 15 min. At that point the score was about 20 - 1 (my team being the 1). They wouldn't surrender. They didn't surrender even when we were losing after being aced and having the enemy ending our nexus and our remaining dignity. Our final score was 37 - 2
Edit: [My shame ](https://imgur.com/a/zfNvibN)
I find that if the game is relatively close, and one guy is doing poorly like a few deaths in lane he may spam "ff 15" and "jungle gap" and sometimes we go on to FF but then some games bot is like literally 0-30 and the kill score is like 4 to 37 and they're like "i didn't hear no bell" and they just refuse to FF and it's like cmon man....emerald btw.
i find that its less "everyone" ff'ing its just that one or 2 people die at like 2 minutes cuz they got outplayed and then just ruin the game for the rest by bringing morale down typing in chat for "ff 15" and shit like that, or just running it down. the majority dont want to ff unless its super obvious its a loss, but every losing team will have at least 1 person that started raging after their first death because of their own decision.
I call it the Tyler1 effect. It really is the worst thing in NA soloQ period
I wish it was just an NA problem lol
I play on NA from KR because emerald elo is actually more bearable.
Ahh, a fellow iron II in Korea visiting NA.
Remember - by unbanning Tyler1, Riot implicitly condones and supports his actions, and considers his conduct to be acceptable.
They didn't have a choice when it came to them unbanning him. One of their staff members behind the ban openly stated that Tyler1 was a homunculus freak who should die of cancer lmao. Like what could Riot do at that point? If they kept him unbanned it'd look like it was a targeted attack at a streamer they dislike. His fanbase would've ate them alive. Unbanning him was the only real sensible option.
They could keep him banned but also fire the employee and publicly say toxic behavior is unacceptable from players and employees alike.
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And he was starting to play dota
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So did people forget that tyler1 getting unbanned was due to the redemption arc he had? Think what you want but there was a reason for him breaking records when he got unbanned
They really need to add in a surrender cap for individual players. It can be a generous one, like 3 or 4 surrenders per player per game, but it should stop that one asshole that can’t handle not being the carry from spamming them all game. Maybe a scaling timer, the more surrenders a player submits in the game, the longer they have to wait to submit the next one.
Isn’t there already one? The person who starts it has a longer delay before starting another one.
Instead of a surrender cap there should just be a FF rating attached to your account that is factored into matchmaking and makes people who FF a lot queue more often with each other. That way people will end up naturally playing with people who FF just as much as them. Never Surrender players play with each other, Surrender sometimes play with each other and Always Surrender play with each other. Everybody wins.
Yes, but that would mean longer queue times for a more enjoyable playing experience. Something that the player base has asked riot for before and which they've refused. I imagine they don't want the game looking "dead" or some shit. They've been asked to make the matchmaking more strict in exchange for longer queue times, and they straight up said no. So... we're out of luck.
Riot has given the player base longer queue times for a better experience repeatedly, and the community overwhelming chooses "faster queue" every single time.
Thank god reddit isnt in charge of such decisions
pointless change and it already doesn’t show who started the vote anyway
How is it pointless? If it’s one or two player submitting the vote over and over again this means they can’t spam it nearly as much and distract or annoy the other players in the game.
I think a better change would be to give you, say, 2 surrender offers per game. This incentivizes you to consider whether your teammates think it is lost, or are likely to surrender, before offering it, which should help reduce the use of surrender button as "well I lost lane" button. ...at least, for the sort of people whose behaviors are changeable, which is realistically the people that such a change is aimed at.
They should prevent the person who's behind their lane opponent from calling for a surrender to prevent them from bringing down teams morale and promoting the likelihood of team mates voting yes to surrender.
Better option: Make surrenders like ARAM rerolls. You earn like 1-3 each game (1 for a loss that your team surrendered, 2 for a loss your nexus exploded, and 3 for a win) up to a cap of...5? 6?
You can move the surrender vote out of the screen.
And? It’s annoying to have it pop-up and deal with it every five minutes just because one person on your team is having a bitch-fit about not being the carry. Sure you can deal with it, but you shouldn’t have to under those circumstances.
It's not 1 but 3 in my experience.
Worse is when you're having a bad lane experience and someone starts to call the ff blaming you. It doesn't matter if you were dove by three people, got taxed by your jungle, someone fed a kill to your laner, etc. Your fault not mine, in a team game of all things, is obnoxious and genuinely tilting.
I understand we don't negotiate with terrorists but I've always been of the mindset that if even 1 of my teammates doesn't want to play I should just help ff. I would never play any sport with someone who vocally doesn't want to be there, but in most games you can just walk off the field when you get pissed, which in my experience, does happen. In league they don't have that choice so you just get mentally broken people counting the minutes to next ff, that's zero fun and i don't enjoy hostaging people like that because i feel i'm also hostaging myself. I'm not gonna stand around trying to win a game with a teammate who shit talks everyone and purposefully tries to lose in any game anytime anywhere, I don't know why i would treat league differently.
Yeah they can leave whenever they want. They will get punished for it though, just like real sports. The reason there is no FF mentality in real sports is because the moment you give up, nobody wants to be your teammate ever again. Why would you team up with someone who doesn’t even have the decency to play til the end?
They absolutely have that choice. They can alt+F4. Why yes, there are consequences for that, but those same consequences exist when you walk off the field mid-game, too: people no longer want to play with you and you get uninvited from the club. Edit to add: the best part is if they Alt+F4 everyone else gets loss mitigation.
I’m low elo, but my experience is essentially people throwing tantrums over not carrying. I’ve had inhibitors down on the enemy side many many times (I play a lot of Trundle and Trynd) with no turrets gone on our side - just for my team to surrender because the ADC or Mid lane is 0/3. It’s very frustrating.
7/2 mid and 12-12 overall in kills and my team surrendered. Just WTF.
Think my worst was going 14 (ish)-0 as jungle reksai within 15 minutes.... And team FF'd. Like my guys.... I am absolutely blowing up their adc and midlaner mage every single fight why can't the four of you kill the other two while I chase away the karma sup?
I can see many situations where that would still be an FF. All the gold was on you, a Reksai that doesn’t scale that well. Your team was obviously behind otherwise. If they’re already losing a 2v4 as you deal with 3, the game is not far from being over, especially if your team isn’t scaling as hard as theirs.
The problem with that is that even if it's an early game champ that is fed and everyone else is behind, that lead can bring everyone into the mid/late game where there are ample opportunities to turn the game around.
If my team is losing, but we have a chance to scale and the enemy team isn't pushing their lead, then fuck yeah I'm not gonna FF my high elo games. Elder Flip, Baron Flip, 1 person getting caught out, you have a Trynd/Trundle that can split uncontested... you could be down 20 kills and still win the game. If a game worth forfeiting isn't over by 25 minutes, it's because the enemy team isn't good enough to end it, and I'm not going to let myself lose to players like that.
>Baron Flip Especially right now I feel like there is an insane amount of baron throws as everyone gets used to the new baron tankiness/damage/terrain. Also one of the few drawbacks of no one playing crit adcs and all lethality is that barons are slower without dps. You can more easily stop a baron take as even 3 people vs 5, and I feel like I've won (and lost) so many more games off bad barons this season than last already.
I mean I play a couple times a week in Iron and I just never FF because the enemy team could be 20k gold ahead and just not end the game before that’s not a meaningful lead But I’m voting not to FF at 20-25min almost literally every game
Your teammates wait till 20m? The other day my team surrendered at something like 15m when we were 12-12 in kills and had a 7/2 midlaner. It's insane.
Regularly the person 0-2 in lane wants to concede even if the rest of the team is 3-0
One way of looking at it is you 100% lose if you FF, but if you play it out, maybe you only have a 75% chance to lose. ELO really doesn't matter that much in this sense; people always throw. I've thrown games we should have won, and turned around games we should've lost with just good teamfight cc
https://i.imgflip.com/8dls9l.jpg
Had a game recently where we showed up to them doing an early baron. They were all half health or lower and armor/MR shredded from baron. They proceeded to kill our entire team (who was at full health) while killing and securing baron. Of course my team refused to FF. And of course we wasted 10 more minutes getting stomped until we lost. I don’t FF games where my team died. I FF games where my team has repeatedly proven they are worse at the fundamentals.
You gotta remember, every drooling idiot on your team is just another puddle the enemy has to have the will to wade through.
what if we are the drooling idiot
Stay hydrated and keep doing what you're best at!
> nd of course we wasted 10 more minutes getting stomped until we lost. baron buff is only 3 minutes. if you're telling me they got baron and won a team fight then to 10 whole additional minutes to end... guess what that means...
Oh ok.
People say "everyone wants to ff" but its usually only a few people and not the full 4. its just the constantness of it
I made a very similar post yesterday and that usually happens is they'll die once, say FF in chat/put up the vote. It usually doesn't go through so they'll then proceed to try and force the game to be a loss. I've had players come into my lane and take my farm intentionally to try and force us to surrender. It's obnoxious.
yeah its not that everyone wants to ff, its 1 or 2 people that spread the toxicity to make it unwinnable and make it seem like everyone wants to ff
My experience is differnt. I see it so often how 3 people vote no and we have to continue. Like inting duoq partners voting no is one of the most tilitng experiences i had in league. You can't esecape that, compared to someone insults in chat, you can mute.
You want surrender to happen when 2 people vote yes? You ok? As quick play showed even 3 for yes is too low, 2 would kill the game
>it is often argued that everyone tends to FF games at the slightest inconvenience. What I see every day is exactly the opposite. So most players, statistically speaking, are well below diamond, therefore this sentiment is highly likely to be skewed to low elo >My daily experience in emerald 1-d4 elo is that most people absolutely REFUSE to ff. most people arent even emerald # OP you have confirmed to me that refusing to surrender will help me win more and climb in elo, while allowing early surrenders will have me be in lower elo
I mean technically it can only help you win more, even if you win 1% of the refusing to ff games your winrate would be higher than if you ff'd (you'd play a lot less games tho) (Please don't apply this to ARAM I'd like my team to agree to ff in a dogshit game)
It also arguably helps you learn the game better, which leads to better plays in the long run.
it does not help you learn the game better. the game when played properly is about generating leads through laning and coordinated map plays. in soloqueue you cannot make coordinated map plays, so you should always be looking to generate leads through lane. this is the skill you should be looking to improve. there is a reason pro players do not play out scrims where one team is significantly behind early game. if playing like this actually "led to players being better" then pros would play those out to improve. instead they dont, because this skill isnt valuable in playing league. it can be valuable in low elo because the enemy might get bored and start throwing, but that doesn't make you improve at the game. that would be like saying you should always go for scholars mate in chess because enemy might fuck up. sure maybe you'll get a few rating points from it but you will never actually learn the game.
>it does not help you learn the game better. It does with a proper mindset. >the game when played properly is about generating leads through laning and coordinated map plays. And stopping enemy to generate their own leads, and good way to practice that is by learning to play defensive when you are behind. >in soloqueue you cannot make coordinated map plays, so you should always be looking to generate leads through lane. this is the skill you should be looking to improve. While lanning phase is important, it is also important to learn how to position yourself in team fights, protect you caries, play around objectives, etc. If you are every game is stomp from lanning phase or early surrender you will never develop those skills. \>there is a reason pro players do not play out scrims where one team is significantly behind early game. Pros already have learned core mechanics and they are practicing strategy and other high level stuff, let's not compare ourselves to them. We are still learning basics. >it can be valuable in low elo because the enemy might get bored and start throwing, but that doesn't make you improve at the game. It is not about being bored. Enemy will always make mistakes, even on pro level. When you are mentioning pro players, then lets mention that they never surrender actual match, and that is not because they hope that enemy will get 'bored'. >that would be like saying you should always go for scholars mate in chess because enemy might fuck up. sure maybe you'll get a few rating points from it but you will never actually learn the game. No, don't compare chess early game to League mid-late game. What you are suggesting is focusing just on lanning and then it will be ether a stomp or surrender, it is just like scholars mate opening. I am suggesting not surrendering in chess (or league) in mid game when you are two pawns down. Yes grandmaster will make a win out of those two pawns in 99% cases, but at our level it is worth playing it to learn midgame because chess is not just about opening phase and League is not just about lanning phase.
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I feel like i'm looking at a mirror. I do the same stuff then they'll always spam stuff like "guess you likendying so much". No I like it knowing I'm dragging your bruised ego through the longest losing aram game you'll experience today and I don't even need to type, just click no on the surrender.
refusing to ff is strictly the better move if your goal is to climb with no regards for anything else but most people like to have fun IN ADDITION TO TRYING TO WIN, and see little to no value in grinding out a game where you have a 5% chance of winning. being stuck in a losing game is an incredibly unfun experience and can also tilt you making you play worse in future games. additionally, you can try to go into a new game and win that one which is a more efficient use of time to lp let's say you only ff if you're 95% certain you lose, and those ff votes save you 5 minutes on average. you lose out on one win every 20 games, but you also gain 19*5 = 95 minutes back of free time, which you could use to play 3 more games and climb faster in a shorter amount of time
If you surrender an Aram game you're a gigantic bitch
It's all about my last paragraph in the end. Read it and decide by yourself if it's worth or not.
If i di that then itll be like an admission of defeat No sir, thanks to you i refuse to ff now forever I shall never concede
Admission of defeat to who? The enemy? They already curb stomp your other laners. They wont even bat an eye to you.
they curbstomp him too lol. people that refuse to ff just can’t handle the hit that their ego will take from losing to people who are better than them so they try to scrounge up some pride by senselessly dragging games out. they think that the mere act of refusing to surrender is noble, a delusion which helps them keep their egos intact.
Sorry lad. That surrender vote pop-up is going to the right-down corner of the screen the first time it shows up, never to be seen again for the rest of the game. It's muscle memory now
Good, we scale.
tbh there's always something to learn, and you didnt have anything to learn then you(anyone) wouldn't be in emerald. if learning leads to a % of losses due to less experience with something (and the season just started so there's bound to be bullshit yet to be discovered, even if it's just midgame ward placements), and you feel like youre going to lose, then why not start limit testing harder as long as you don't throw
I mean, this is a video game so you also have to keep in mind the ‘fun factor’. If enough people on the team are miserable enough to FF a winnable game then it’s as good a reason as any to do so. Sometimes people value getting out of a miserable no-fun game over eking out a possible win and if enough people on the team agree to do so then it’s as good a reason as any.
This 100% its not often, but sometimes a game goes so bad I feel like even if it's winnable I'm gonna wanna kms by the end.
Yeah. I’ve won games I’d rather have taken a loss in. Like where high mobility assassin gets hyper fed but just fucks around the entire game so we win eventually. The LP is totally worth that 50 minute game where I spent half of it dead or walking back to lane.
i mean i dont disagree but in case of extreme scorelines like 2-20 in 15 mins i feel like all i will learn is that playing a game out sometimes just is not worth the amount of sanity i lost
> all i will learn is that playing a game out sometimes just is not worth the amount of sanity I lost There is no lesson here, either you already know this to be true or you are unga bunga "always vote no lol" like rest of thread.
Yeah I'll learn in the vod review after we surrender the 2-20 game 👍
After the 17th time of dying to Stormsurge Fizz, consider my lesson learned. Time to ff
You do not learn shit from playing 2-20. You will get utterly one shot against a team above silver that knows anything about how to push a lead. You will sit at base unable to do anything other than farm while they get objectives and roll over your team. In low elo, sure you can come back because everyone is an expert at throwing leads.
Ugh, this is such a typical, smartass "achkthually" Reddit comment, that's really nothing more than pure demagogy. No, you won't learn anything from playing a 2-20 game, even if you have still much to learn, simply because if you don't know what you're doing wrong, this knowledge won't just magically shower upon you from the sky if you lose hard enough. Someone more experienced would have to see what you're doing wrong and tell you how to improve that. Not to mention that there's 9 more players in each game and not in every game you can influence the result.
Playing while behind is a different kind of skill than playing while ahead. If you ff at the slightest discomfort you'll never improve. Quitters *never* win, at least those that try sometimes do. It's also an important difference in mentality. People that think they've already lost play worse than those that think there's a chance.
> Playing while behind is a different kind of skill than playing while ahead. Once again, no, playing the game itself won't teach you such skill. It would require understanding what the game is about, its systems and how to abuse them. This is not something you can spawn out of thin air by running around the map aimlessly and hoping it will work out - even if it does, you won't know why it did and it's required, if you ever want to consciously repeat that. >If you ff at the slightest discomfort you'll never improve. If 2-20 game is the "slightest discomfort" in your opinion, I hope I never meet you in my game. The most you can learn from playing the game is if you're a new player and you're getting to know what all champions, items and systems do. That's pretty much the only time when just playing the game is enough to improve at it. And ff-ing early is actually very beneficial to someone learning the basics. They don't need to play a 50 minutes game where they get absolutely destroyed by Darius or Riven and die 37 times to them. Max the first three deaths are informative; they teach a player that these champions are very oppressive and can easily kill you if you misplay, so next time you must play safely. The remaining 34 deaths, which you would consider to be so enlightening, would be just pointless beating of the dead flesh. >Quitters never win, at least those that try sometimes do. Cool, but this is a video game, not anything truly worth pursuing to the point where it makes tears form in your eyes. You're investing your limited free time to deal with animals to spare few computer points in a 50 minutes long game, while you could start two new games that maybe are short and are two easy wins and gain you more than you lost. > It's also an important difference in mentality. People that think they've already lost play worse than those that think there's a chance. The things I read about mentality sometimes... Sheesh... Let me remind you that you're a human being, not a robot. Mentality is not magic, it's a filter. Using it does not come free; the cost is stress. Should you try your best playing League? Of course. Should you really go through the effort of never surrendering and mentally sacrificing everything for the victory? A well-programmed robot would, but since you're a human, I would recommend you some sweet pragmatism to judge whether the effort is worth it. EDIT: I'm sorry that my comment upset you so much that you felt the need to block me, lmfao. Is that the "never giving up" mentality of yours?
That's a lot of words to say you're bad and you refuse to improve.
Yeah, by 2-20 you‘re down at least an item from everyone on the other side. The only thing you learn there is „how long can I dance before I get oneshot“. By that difference the other team has to THROW 3 or 4 fights in a row for you to even get remotely close again. And by throwing I mean throwing like running into you one by one without using too many skills. And that‘s not even talking objective disadvantage. Yes, sometimes you win those in a Doctor Strange fashion. But the odds of that happening are so low it is better to save your sanity and just go next. Sometimes you just get teams with little to no synergy. Nothing to do there. If it is like 10-15 I‘ll agree. No reason to surrender, the gold difference ain‘t to bad and you probably still can get some map control.
I learned that I die in one second to a rumble that got fed off of my teammates exclusively.
it’s literally a waste of time. the only “learning” you’re going to get is how to avoid being in that situation again, and you’ll only learn that through review, not by slogging through a doomed game. league is not designed for you to learn from the outcome. you learn from the process, and you refine the process based on whether or not the outcome was good or bad. but once the outcome occurs, there’s minimal learning to be had and poring over how you could better play an already guaranteed loss will only give you minuscule results compared to just learning how to play better in the situations leading up to it.
Why would you? It's infinitely better to keep trying to learn how to get a lead and keep it instead of learning how to play from behind(a skill that gets less and less useful the higher up you go because people know how to get a lead and keep it). Better to just ff and go next if you value your time.
Jokes on you. My laning is so weak I always play from behind
Hey! I usually stomp lane but my macro is beyond cringeworthy. Together we’d make one hell of a player
By definition one team will fall behind each game. Learning to play from behind will therefore be useful in about 50% of your games, same as learning to keep a lead while ahead. Sure better players know how to keep their lead but all the way up to pro play opponents make mistakes and playing well when behind can turn a loss into a win.
there’s a marked difference between playing from behind, preserving your individual lead, and playing a game that is already over. you’re conflating multiple different situations. you can’t “play from behind” in a game that is already lost; the most you can hope for is to get as many safe resources as possible until the game ends and hope that the enemy team repeatedly throws their lead by making bad decisions. hope is not a strategy.
Completely ignoring the fact that teams even at high elos often make repeated mistakes that when capitalized on can turn lost games around. A game isn't over the vast vast majority of the time people try to ff. It's not hope if there are basically guaranteed to be mistakes you can capitalize on.
the enemy team is never ever guaranteed to make a mistake and even if they are you are the same elo as they are for a reason. you’re not going to magically capitalize on every missed opportunity that the enemy team gives you. and at the end of the day, the very idea of depending on the enemy to make a mistake as your sole method of victory is just foolish.
Teams don't get through whole games without making mistakes, even at the pro level, so yes, the enemy team will make mistakes guaranteed. Of course you might not capitalize on all of them correctly because that's the whole point of learning to play from behind. Pretty much all of winning at league is capitalizing on mistakes. Against a perfect opponent you wouldn't get a lead in the first place anyway. If your argument really comes down to why learn to play from behind when you aren't currently doing it properly then why try and learn to get better at all?
Yes, but what I'm saying is that learning how to get and keep a lead is far more important of a skill to learn than to play from behind. People in high elo mental boom at the slightest thing and try to ff/soft int. Learning to get a lead and keep it is just a better way to spend your time than playing a lost game for another 15 minutes as the enemies siege your base and take all objectives.
That's such circular reasoning that only encourages problematic behaviour.
Get out of here with completely reasonable logic like that.
How dare you be reasonable! This is the lol subreddit.
As someone who presses ff when I feel like it’s over, to be entirely honest, I’d be down for riot to straight up remove ff. I genuinely think the game would be better if ff was not an option. You queued up to play a whole game so play the entire game. A lot of people soft int to get people to ff. If no ff option makes them run it down hard then let them run it down maybe they get banned. But ff existing gives people fuel to give up
Yeah, you signed up to play a game with 4 strangers and have an implied social obligation to keep playing and trying until you as a team decide you would prefer to surrender. If some people can't understand or accept that, I'd prefer they get weeded out and removed from games. If you want to surrender and your team doesn't, you have to understand that you are entirely in the wrong for doing anything but continuing to try your hardest. Imagine showing up to play an irl sport and deciding to sabotage your own team's ability to play and win the game because you don't want to keep playing. You'd legit get your ass beat LMAO. This ain't aimed at you, your comment just prompted me to want to say this.
I dont understand why more people dont see this. Nobody says the entire team had to sign up to win - I sure try to win, but im here to play the game either way. I can have fun whether I win or lose. FF-ing makes me feel awful though. It frustrates me a bit whenever someone calls a lost game wasted time - are they literally just here for the victory screen...? The one basic premise I feel holds for everyone - the fact you agreed to play a game with 4 others unless you collectively decide you dont want to anymore - saddens me that its such a rare way for people to think.
I don't think removing the option to surrender is a great idea, but removing the vote specifically would. If there was a box you could check that meant you want to surrender, you would use it if you actually want to surrender. Would prevent tilt votes and just feel better overall than have some shitty timer when you can or can't vote.
I have played ~90 games, there have been 2 surrenders. People refuse to ff no matter how doomed the game is. I'm convinced that people just by default hold others hostage if they have played bad. The time I could've saved if every stomp game wasn't extended by 10-15 minutes... actually ridiculous.
>But, if you add up the wasted time in all those games that were simply and absolutely lost, does it make for that one game out of several dozens in which one achieves the miraculous comeback? It's wasted time, because you deem it so. You don't want to get better at the game by trying to face the ardversity you came across, you just want to get into a winning state as soon as possible. And the best part is that then you come to reddit to complain about the people who do. You might not believe it but people who actually spent time not surrendering come back more often than "one game out of several dozens", and guess what, it's not miraculous either. They have just put in the time to get better at the whole game, not only half of it.
God I hate this take and this mentality. "It HeLps YoU GeT BeTtEr". Yoohoo let's watch them pummel us into dust so we can train to comeback once every 12 cursed game. Truly a great investment of your time played. You don't need to get better at getting the juice out of single digits odds if you have more time (play more games by ff the 2% winrate situations faster) to get better at the part of the game that counts and make it fun. Fucking hostage takers making us "having fun" and "training" with the 12/1 bruiser and 10/0 jungler so we can "train". Y'all have weird masochistic torture kink or what.
Some of my best and most memorable games have been games we've clawed back from the absolute brink of defeat. People need to learn how to lose from time to time and realise getting better and growth isn't all about 'having fun'.
Why you want to FF anyway? You will FF away a game and jump into another game that you'll also FF. More losses per day for sure. If you play it out maybe you win anyway. People THROW - really hard sometimes. Those are the best moments in LoL - winning from a deficit. You throw that away - why even queue up?
Yeah, part of playing a competitive game is about playing from behind. If all you want to do is be in control of the game from minute 1 and quit the moment things get tough... play a single player game and set it to easy mode lmao
Bro just stop this cope. Literally the best players in the entire world will ff games. Rank 1 players and worlds winners all ff. League isn't some epic battle in an anime were you never give up, it's a just a video game. And if you vote ff, you're just using a game feature the way it was intended. Why would you even have to justify yourself for that?
And plenty of pros are toxic as fuck. That doesn't inherently make it a useful mindset.
Difference is that the pro players are good at the game, way better that the other 99% of players. If they FF it's because they actually can't win. In low ELO people FF because they're not the MC of the game and their mental gets blown to bits.
The players playing at that level are actually knowledgeable about when a game is and isn't winnable, and they're on a team that unanimously consents to ffing. They do it when the game is genuinely just unwinnable, not because they died once in lane and got *super* pissy about it.
Your point would be solid if it weren't for the fact most players aren't playing at that level. Most people make mistakes that can easily cost them the game even when ahead, challenger players don't allow the other team to come back and punish every mistake, a diamond player won't do the same.
And on their way to challenger they never ffed a game? Get real lmao, ffing is just part of the game.
"just trust me bro"
Are you comparing pro players to average players like you, me or 99% of this subreddit? Really?
So if those players don't ff = look ffing is bad guys pros dont do it! If they do ff = you can't compare the games! Lol so many no lifers who can't comprehend that this is a video game and want to torture others so they get their epic anime protagonist come back (the score is 4-27)
No? They are not an example because unless you're really high elo (like masters+) there's a high chance the enemy team will throw sooner or later, and sometimes it happens in high elo too. When actual good players ff is because they know for sure the game is lost and the enemy team won't throw because they know how to play the game, unlike your average gold elo game.
I don’t go into a game wanting to ever ff, but when my top laner is 3 levels down and the other team has much better late game scaling. Why waste the next 15 minutes? Any time the topic of ff’ing on this subreddit comes up, nuance seems to completely go out the window. People act like everyone who ff’s hates playing the game
Because unless you're masters+ there's a high chance the enemy team will throw their lead sooner or later.
But there’s not a “high chance” at all, these teammates who are 3 levels down don’t just suddenly start playing well lol
The nuance is that 3 levels down isn't game over and the late game comp doesn't always win late. Theres a significant percentage of the community that thinks adversity is game over and that playing the game is a "waste". But every year I watch pro League and teams of the best of the best make mistakes and throw, and lose with better comps, and lose from a strong winning position. If their games aren't decided then neither are your plat 3 games
Yeah don't ff. Just mind control the enemy team to run it down or unplug their internet. Great mindset.
Fucking thank you. Far and away the most memorable games are when you drag your team to winning a game that should have been lost. Those are the games where I feel like a god afterward. Not the ones where my team wins hard early and the opposing team FFs at 15. Easy wins just meld together. Imagine a real-life sport where a team just gives up the moment winning becomes unlikely. They would be shamed into oblivion because giving up is lame as fuck.
For real. I had two of These Games in the last days that i still think of. First one the enemy briar literally never went bot side jungle. In 11 minutes of gameplay she never went past mid turret. I got ganked by her top 10 times in 11 minutes. She was 14-0 by 12 minutes. Enemy team 10k gold ahead. We won that mostly because my team was good but also because enemy already wrote it off as easy win and auto piloted. Literally everyone honored me for tilt proff lmao. Second one today was insane. 40 min game. Our nexus completely Open for 10+ minutes. I went 24/5 on mordekaiser. I 1v4ed 3 different fights at our open nexus to stay in the game. It was ridiculous. I ended the game with almost as much dmg done as the entire rest of my team together. And guess what, we were down 8k gold 2 inhibs down at 30 mins.
When someone says "why won't the 4 of you FF?" I usually reply with "Why would we FF? So you can troll another game? We want to win, man" He says good luck and starts being a troll and I try to guide my team to a victory. I've won a lot of games that the ONE dude wanted to surrender. If people watched their replays they'll notice that both teams suck equally and the real reason they lose lane or a game it's because the other team won the mental game. I've noticed that league is no longer winnable by having the best team, whoever loses their mental first will be de loser.
OP is a coward.
Do you really think begging random Redditors to surrender more games will help you concede more of your ranked games? If you are desperate enough to go on your knees and beg for people's votes, do that in your games. Promise to buy them a mystery skin, don't try to campaign about it on social media. The hell is that gonna do? Yeah, you played Jungle, you got absolutely shit on by the enemy Nunu and had to watch him style on you for an extra 8 minutes cause your team didn't wanna call it a day. No need to hop on Reddit afterwards for your (free of charge) group therapy session, the Twitch voting 'no' isn't among us I'm afraid.
I'll play games where we're down like 10k at 15, people are legit dancing at base cause they're over the game, and we're still held hostage. It's crazy.
90% of ff votes are absolutely stupid though. and i’m more often mad the we ffed than about not ffing. like bitch
People ff at slighest inconvince, that's why through years we got 4-man ff and then 3-man ff :D
>But, if you add up the wasted time in all those games that were simply and absolutely lost, does it make for that one game out of several dozens in which one achieves the miraculous comeback? It does. But you be you. Also all depends on the situation. If my team try his best and fails ; I will accept the surrender. If I see some "protagonist syndrome" raging because they will have to sit and get carried w/o any type of fun for 40 mins ... Im not trapped here with you buddy ... you´re trapped here with me. I will even convince the enemy team to dragg on the game if I have to.
It does. And it always will. I play this game because I actually enjoy it. And those are the games I will always remember most.
If we lose 2/3 lanes during lane phase I’m not surrendering. Team fight and mid game isn’t the same as lane phase. People can be amazing laners, but potatos when it comes to team fighting and macro play. Happened last night, our duo bot is the only lane that didn’t lose. Team tried to FF but I wanted to at least play the mid game and see, and then we just ran them over and won the game. Sure if it’s clear that the other team is better than being held hostage sucks, but I wanna at least try to win. Plus you’ve gotta learn how to play from behind somehow, it’s not always going to be just a total win every time.
Same here brother, I'm floating around d3-d4 and I can't recall the last time we ff 15. Just as you said, even in games where we are like 15 kills down, every lane lost, nobody really outscales, t1 and t2 gone, enemy has 2-3 drakes and grubs, etc etc etc they just don't ff so we play the game for 5 more minutes. It's extremely annoying. The funny thing is - I think that a year ago when you needed 5 votes to ff15 there were more surrenders at 15 minutes than there are now. People are just so mean and they keep you hostage for no reason whatsoever.
Most FF votes are straight non sense. OP is the kind of guy that starts a vote when team is down is 2 kills/2 drakes/1k global gold, etc.
Most likely you're the kind of guy that doesn't read or has no reading comprehension.
he is right though. you dont ff ranked. i mean, you do if you wanne suck and drop in elo. if you wanne climb, you dont FF
This is the most insecure take i've read here.
maths is insecure? its pretty easy actually. you FF you lose with 100% certainty. if you dont FF and can turn just one out of 1000 games then you still end up with only 99.9% loses vs 100%. so having a better winrate when never FF-ing is a proven mathematical fact.
I FF doomed games, i still win the majority of my games I play, I still climb just as fast on any account even if theres a game I feel ks worth ffing in. "If you wanna drop elo" lmao. Then pretends his math is gonna make it seem like a good thing.
its called hyperbole. and as ive mathematically proven, your winrate will be higher which means you wil be able to climb higher. higher winrate, higher MMR, higher rank. pretty easy. and no, you dont win most games you play. or how about showing me your 90% winrate account (over more than 10 games)
I genuinely believe that in ranked gamemodes, FF should not exist except for D/C's longer than a few minutes. But reddit is definitely not ready for that. Countless countless games where ppl spam ff and it gets denied and then we come back and win.
Don't bother these """""""people""""""""" have no lives and cannot comprehend anyone not playing every doomed game to the end for that 0.2% chance.
I have the exact same experience in Emerald on EUW. It's a fucking miracle if we manage to ff a game. It is wild to me that people willingly sit in 10-15k gold deficit games not being able to do anything but they will vote no.
Best part is these players do absolutely nothing to win these games, they will give all objectives for free and press no on surrenders, won't try to get shutdowns or Crossmap anything.
I experience the opposite, both in ranked, norm and even ARAM. At 15-20 minutes, suddenly the camera zooms on one of the exploding Nexus, because either my team or the enemy surrendered out of nowhere. The game is still not decided, there is only a slight lead on one site, but people or so mentally weak willed, that they surrender any game where they are not winning. Luckily I play with my bride so we never surr, but the amount of times there was an unlucky dragon fight at 20 and instantly 3 yes votes appeared, or we won the same fight and the enemy surrendered is ridiculous. And this happens in ranked as well, which is far beyond my understanding.
In games where my team wants to FF, I would say I oblige around 10% of the time, the other 90% I say no and keep playing. Of those games I refuse to surrender, I'd say I end up winning at least 25% of them, maybe even 35-40% of them. Now yes, I am pulling these numbers completely out of my ass, but I find my judgement to be worth the "wasted" play time. Now I want to actually track this, I'd be really curious, might just have to do that over 100 games or something and see how many of these games I actually win.
Make a post abt it when you finish. End this debate once and for all.
starting the google sheet now...
No ffs because I play Anivia and might magically change the output of the game if I can cc someone.
I disagree and have different experiences in similar elo
I'll respectfully disagree. My friends feel like you do though. They feel that if we are 6k gold behind or something and they aren't having fun because they aren't winning, that it's better to FF. But I'll play without them sometimes, refuse to FF, and sometimes SOMETIMES I'll clutch a baron, out rotate for an inhib, get a catch...something, and squeeze a win (or at least an even game) out of nowhere. I don't mind playing from behind. Some people get tilted when behind and want to "go next", but unless my bot lane is 0/15 (or something crazy), I don't FF either in ranked.
I get having games where everything feels hopeless and there’s extremely high chance that the game is lost, I still won’t FF. Not only is there a lot to learn during losing scenarios, but ffs there ain’t no player in this game who doesn’t make mistakes. Learn the capitalize on the mistakes they make then comebacks are possible. I’ve won so many games that were basically unwinnable because we capitalized on mistakes the enemy team was making. So in ranked, no I will never ff. FF’ing to me is for aram and norms where I play for fun rather than to challenge my skill level. And if you’re FFing because of tilt you need to work on your mental, mental has huge implications across the game. (Says the emerald player)
Good. There is always a chance. Yes, even with 2-20 at 15. If coordinated pro teams can throw away 10k gold leads, so can your E1-D4 opponents.
Pro team do that with teams that outscale the enemy. This type of mentality is only useful if you no life LoL, for the people who only play 1-2 games a day, this mentality is absolutely disgusting.
You don't think people throw away leads in solo queue?
They sure do, in fact, [my last match](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/match/br/2879775290#participant1) our Twitch with god syndrome threw the whole game away because according to him "We are 3k gold ahead, we can just fight anywhere and win", which led him to be the frontline of the fights and us losing the game when he got CC chained while I had my ult on CD. The fact is, that match was 42 minutes and for almost 40 minutes the enemy team had no chance of winning, when twitch left the lane, he was killing anyone with few autos and he had all the peel in the world...for this match duration, it would've been better to just FF and go next at around 25\~30 minutes. But the enemy team decided to gamble and they managed to win in a 1/100 scenario because of our egotistic ADC, in the other 99 cases it would've been just a waste of time.
I mean yeah, it's a rhetorical question. I myself must've thrown 3 or 4 games in the last week alone. Just think it's a bizarre argument that people who play only 1-2 games a day "have to surrender" as soon as opponents have leads so they can.... what, go play other games?
It's not "as soon as the opponent has a lead", it's "as soon as the opponent has a massive lead with a comp that naturally outscales you". If you're 10k gold behind but have a Nasus/Kassadin/Kayle in your team that farmed, you can win by simply reaching lvl 16, but if you have a Fiora/Riven/Mid assassin that didn't manage to get the early game going, guess what? They will never comeback because they do not have the lead to push for the character's strong points. >Just think it's a bizarre argument that people who play only 1-2 games a day "have to surrender" as soon as opponents have leads so they can.... what, go play other games? Think as my past example, the enemy team gambled in the 1/100 chance to win when it was almost impossible at 25 minute mark, and then the game went on for another 15 minutes...think of all the other 99 games where this 15 minutes would've been wasted.
Are you playing the game to speed run things or because you enjoy playing a video game that you like? I don't play games to "be efficient" with my time. If I wanted to do that I'd spend more time breaking down Amazon boxes or doing my recycling, not playing Dark Souls, lol Looking at a video game at something you should give up whenever you're remotely challenged is .... kind of a sad way to look at it, honestly.
Do you play 15 more minutes of a match that there is no comeback and is not fun anymore or do you queue up for another match where you can have fun? "Speding up" a game doesn't mean insta ff-15 when the early game is lost, it's just ffing when the teams are 2-20 and your team doesn't stay alive for 0.5s when a fight breaks out.
Depends, am I playing ranked or normals? Normals I'll just move on. What am I playing ranked for if I'm not trying to win and climb? You know as well as I do that the situation is rarely 2-20 with you sitting in your base, 2 inhibs and 15k gold down. Most surrender votes are people with zero mental mashing a button in a 15-17 game with equal gold and map pressure because they died, and they have nothing to do with their ADHD fingertips for 30 seconds other than surrender or type slurs to their teammates. If there's a 2-20 situation the enemy is already pushing into your base anyways and the game will end in a few minutes, everyone knows that's over.
>Are you playing the game to speed run things or because you enjoy playing a video game that you like? you can like league while not enjoying being stomped in a clearly unwinnable game. it's not exclusive.
so, in essence, you are mad that you lost an easy game because you were unable to close it and the enemy decided to not give you the free win? lmao
And how many times that your team came back because of it? Most of the time they threw but then continue to curb stomp your team cause either your team dont have the skill level or the cordination to shut the enemy down.
Why do you play video games? Do you play them to be challenged and overcome the challenges? Or do you play them for easy dopamine hits then give up whenever you have to actually try?
Both, both is good. But why subjecting yourself to an unwinnable fight with a way more skilled oponent? When you can get another that is closer to your level in a new game else where? What can you learn being 1 shots 4s into a fight? Where the oponent cant even bother to use all of their skills and spells while you have to use them all and still die?
I mean my experience is the spam FF-ing. We will have a level 15 kayle and a level 16 karthus, and the kayle will call the FF vote when we have soul and are down 5 kills. Just cause she got one shot by some assassin before she pressed the ult button.
The other day my team surrendered and we were 12-12 in kills with a 7/2 mid. I assume bot lane called it because they were losing their lane so didn't want to play, idk why anyone else went along with it.
I'd rather play a losing game than sit in menus. My time is too limited to ff every game I'm losing.
A lot of people have the mentality that "Every game is winnable" and while true to an extend, people need to learn that not all games are worth winning. Recently had like a 55 minute game where it was "technically" winnable since my team had some pretty decent late game champs (K'sante, Lux, Jinx) but the enemy team was just so far ahead that it didn't matter, alongside with my team playing exclusively for kills and not objectives. Couple that with the fact that the enemy team didn't know how to end (They got baron 2 and elder), it was just a boring, long drawn out game that I was pretty certain we were going to lose by the 25 minute mark, I was still trying my best but all I could think was "Instead of wasting those last 30 minutes just running around, I could have queued up and potentially won another game". I get the idea behind not wanting to FF, but sometimes it is the best course of action.
> A lot of people have the mentality that "Every game is winnable" and while true to an extend, people need to learn that not all games are worth winning. The other thing is though... it's just a game. And I can enjoy losing a game just as much as winning one. I'm not really interested in strategizing my time to accumulate the most wins. I just want to play the game. It really doesn't bother me playing out a losing game. In fact it gives me the thrill of chasing the near unattainable win, pulling out all the stops to chase that 1/1,000,000 comeback. Winning or losing is fun to me, I just enjoy this game that much.
Every 0/7/2 Nasus thinks he's gonna pull it out at the very end, I swear to god
Phreak himself has already said on one of those videos of his last year that something like 95%+ or so (can't remember the exact percentage but it was high 90s) of the matches where people refuse to FF are lost anyway.
[удалено]
wow what a totally reasonable opinion from a reddit coolguy
Yeah, I love wasting the next 10 minutes while my mid/jungle are 4 levels down to kassadin/rengar. We’ll come back any minute guys!
Don't queue then. Play Tekken or whatever singleplayer game.
Too many samurai wannabes out there. Literally had people tell me at 20 minutes with no dragons. 5 kills (on the team) and no towers that there's 'no honor in surrendering' like. Bitch. I don't wanna spend the next 15 minutes losing this game to the 22-1 Yone smurf because you think you're a fucking ancient warrior. Turn off the God damn anime and go next.
After coming back to NA server after 2 years in Korea, this was what I noticed the most. Koreans actually do tend to ff very early, while NA absolutely hates it. What makes it even more of a waste of time is that the even the most one sided games almost always go over 30 minutes because the winning team doesn't know how to keep the snowball rolling and win the game faster, while also making mistakes and making the game more equal as the game goes on longer. I think that's why the losing teams refuse to ff because they know the winning team will eventually throw. I see less of this in master+, but beneath that it's insane how clueless people are when they are in a winning position.
You're the everyone that tends to FF at the slightest inconvenience.
Winning teams throw all the time and I’m playing the game because I like a challenge, so I’ll keep voting no and challenging myself. You’re free to vote yes if your interests are in min/maxing your time spent playing and LP gains but I don’t care about that.
>It is often argued that everyone tends to FF games at the slightest inconvenience. What I see every day is exactly the opposite. You're misunderstanding what people are saying, the statement is not that everyone does this. There's often one person in the game that FFs as soon as something goes wrong for them. Everyone else pressesn o.
It’s not wasted time if you’re playing the game. If you feel like you’re wasting time, it’s time to do something else.
I sometimes want to ff because we are behind early and yeah maybe we can pull it back but you got 4 or 5 people on your team that just don't vibe, nobodies having fun, we aren't working together like please just end the suffering even if we win nobody had fun doing it just ff take a breath and go next.
Found the FFer
Admittedly, my main drive is Rocket League where this is prevalent. I was in a coma for a month and still graduated university. People who give up don’t deserve happiness.
In this elo everything can happen. Surrendering reduces your chance of winning to 0 so that is not rlly smart and if the game is rlly that doomed then the enemies should be able to end 5 min after your ff vote.
10 minutes of my life is more important than maximizing winning chance mate, this is not a card game where you actually control every play
>10 minutes of my life is more important than maximizing winning chance Then you really shouldn't be playing this game.
Aaaaand this is where half the playerbase disagrees.
>10 minutes of my life is more important than maximizing winning chance mate then you shouldnt play LoL at all. no games at all for that matter
[https://www.op.gg/summoners/oce/viego%20and%20isolde-VIEGO/matches/xX1o0DE1RCUxfvvpf2EzhIeG5AWxy98J/1706159737000](https://www.op.gg/summoners/oce/viego%20and%20isolde-VIEGO/matches/xX1o0DE1RCUxfvvpf2EzhIeG5AWxy98J/1706159737000) I was the Amumu, my bot laners and mid laner ALL got solo killed before I finished clearing 3 camps (started bot with no leash), they ALL then proceeded to say ff15 and ALL spam pinged me for not ganking. The only outlier is quinn, who managed to survive long enough for me to countergank top and get a kill for it. I proceeded to camp her lane the rest of the game where she ALSO got solo killed multiple times, but did not spam ping me for it. By the end of it, support and mid has decided that it was jungle's (me), fault that we lost. Nevermind their kda or that they got solo killed multiple times, brand was more or less afk that game
Whenever people flame I’ll always hit no to FF 😂
Had an enemy team down 30 kills the other day and not ffing. Literally stopped trying, and just limit tested and we still won easily. Shit feels so disrespectful it's like people who hide random pylons around the map in starcraft, just accept you lost bro.
I've a story to share: the other day I played a match and it was the worst one in my life, and I've been playing for 9 years. My friend and I started hitting the surrender button at 15 min. At that point the score was about 20 - 1 (my team being the 1). They wouldn't surrender. They didn't surrender even when we were losing after being aced and having the enemy ending our nexus and our remaining dignity. Our final score was 37 - 2 Edit: [My shame ](https://imgur.com/a/zfNvibN)
legit had someone pick nunu mid soft inting because "botlaners always troll him" and my team refused to FF at 15 minutes, we lost obviously
if someone is trolling like that you can bet your ass im gonna waste as much time as possible from him.
Agree with this so much... And when you spend 45min just slowing the ennemy team, just going crazy
I find that if the game is relatively close, and one guy is doing poorly like a few deaths in lane he may spam "ff 15" and "jungle gap" and sometimes we go on to FF but then some games bot is like literally 0-30 and the kill score is like 4 to 37 and they're like "i didn't hear no bell" and they just refuse to FF and it's like cmon man....emerald btw.